Finance Hacks Won’t Save You, Habits Will

9:36George Kamel:So you get way fewer of those spam calls, creepy texts, and scam emails that make you wonder how they even found you. Guys, the less noise in your digital life, the more time you have for what actually matters. Because when you protect your privacy, you protect your peace and your freedom. So go to joindeliteme.com slash Ramsey to get 20 % off their annual plans and take back control. That's joindeliteme.com slash Ramsey.

10:13Dave Ramsey:Well, we wish we could get to every call and every question here on the show. If you have a money question and you want an answer for your situation, head over to our website and use our Ask Ramsey feature. Ask Ramsey is our free AI tool that's built and trained on proven Ramsey principles. So if you don't know how AI works, AI is only as good as the data that is entered into it to cause it to think. And so what we did is we took thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of this show, all of my books, all of our books, the personalities books, all of the Financial Peace University lessons, and emptied them into a database.

10:56George Kamel:In every article that our team's ever written.

10:58Dave Ramsey:In every article that we've written. And it's all in there. And so AI forms an answer based on all of that, which means that the answer that this Ask Ramsey will give you is better than you will get here on the show. We'll have a brain fart or two, but that thing can't. It can't. It doesn't know how. It's really, really popular. It doesn't have a brain. It's working. The only thing, I want him to add a little bit more sass in there. Yeah, the snark factor could be increased. The sarcasm and sassiness.

11:25George Kamel:Maybe we can add that as a dial. You can dial up how much snark you want. Oh, yeah, more or less snark. How direct, how Dave do you want this to be versus Rachel? You know? Oh, now that got personal. That's a spectrum.

11:36Dave Ramsey:Yeah, that just got personal fast.

11:37George Kamel:She's more friendly. I think America can agree on that. Hey, hey.

11:41Dave Ramsey:See what I mean? We're going to prove it right now. All right. Check it out for yourself. Ramsey, ask Ramsey at RamseySolutions.com. Go to the website, RamseySolutions.com. Ask Ramsey is completely free. You'll get your question answered in some version of George or Rachel or Dave or whatever. It's way nicer than me. I will say that. That's true. For now, until I get through with it. I'm not done with it. Mike's in Baltimore, Maryland. Hey, Mike, what's up? Hi, I'm calling. I'm wondering if you would recommend cashing out principal in a Roth IRA to pay off debt. Not unless you're bankrupt. Not unless you're bankrupt.

12:24Dave Ramsey:Okay. Because it's going to cost you millions and millions and millions of dollars in tax-free growth later because you didn't address the real issue. So how much debt have you got? What's the problem?

12:36George Kamel:um we have about um well we we bought a new house last summer and we used and we have a HELOC from that at about 50k and we have a retirement loan at about 28k um to the 401k um I'm trying to take out the 401k retirement loan first but we've been paying that down probably like$4K a month.

13:01Dave Ramsey:I'd say... Okay, wait a minute. So you've got a$50 ,000 and a$24 ,000. What other debt have you got?

13:06George Kamel:We've got a car loan of about$13K. We've got a credit card debt of maybe, I don't know,$15K. And then we've got savings. How much savings do you have? Well, we don't have full emergency savings, but we have about$11K in emergency savings currently. Good. And then our Roth principle, though, is – the question is really about the Roth principle. I understand. I understand the question, and I'm still telling you no.

13:38Dave Ramsey:I completely understand the question. It's a stupid butt idea. Don't do it. What's your household income?

13:45George Kamel:We make about$8 ,300 about every two weeks. Okay. Are you all 27?

13:53Dave Ramsey:No, no. We're both about 40. 40. Okay. Hmm. Missed that one. All right. So, Mike, in doing what we do here, helping people walk out of debt and become wealthy, what is the shortest distance between where you are now and wealth? It is to become debt free, not by destroying your nest egg that's going to make you wealthy later. And so that's why I keep coming back to know I'm not doing that. So in listening to you, you're fairly new to our information. and so what we teach is a process that's very detailed and very intense and dialed in, like eyes wide open. So you start with$1 ,000 in savings only, not counting your retirement.

14:40Dave Ramsey:You temporarily stop all retirement and then you go to what we call baby step two and you list your debts smallest to largest and you pay off everything but the house in that order with great focused intensity, anything you can do to increase income and reduce debt as fast as possible. Because the sooner you've gotten rid of this$110 ,000, the sooner you now have flex called you now have your income to create the, which is your largest wealth building tool. And right now you've given it all away to all these stupid things you bought that you couldn't afford.

15:14George Kamel:So one other question I have is, we have, you know, pre-tax retirement, and that's, I would say close to$900 ,000 at this point. But that's where I'm feeling like the Roth. I mean, I appreciate the tax-free growth for sure.

15:32Dave Ramsey:Hey, Mike. It's tempting to just pay off debt with it. Hey, Mike. The guy in your mirror is freaking lazy and disorganized with his money. That's you. That's not going to be fixed when you take that money out of that Roth. And all of his freaking debt is going to grow back in five years because you've never addressed the fact that you all have overspent. You're looking for a quick fix. You're looking for a shortcut. And that is not a good plan. I would stop adding to your retirement. And you've got to address the misbehavior. You don't even know your numbers. Oh, sort of, kind of, maybe, I think, is all the language around your numbers.

16:10Dave Ramsey:You don't even know where you are. You're just wandering along buying crap. And you guys are going to have to stop that, whether you cash out your 401k or not. If you can't afford to live off of what you told us,

16:22George Kamel:$200 ,000 in take-home pay, I don't think we can help it. I thought it was$80 ,000. He said$8 ,300 every two weeks is what I heard. So I'm going, dude, you guys make too much to be fooling around with all this debt.

16:33Dave Ramsey:Okay, that's even worse.

16:35George Kamel:And so if those numbers are true, you're right. The behavior is not going to change. You're going to keep robbing that 401k every chance you can get because you guys are living a lifestyle you can't afford.

16:43Dave Ramsey:So my hope is to offend you enough to make you look at this. I love you enough. I want you to get mad at me. That's fine. I'm good with that. I want to piss you off just a little bit and make you grow up and sit down and go, I'm running this thing, this company called Me Incorporated very poorly. If one of my VPs sat down and used the language about their budget in one of our profit centers, the way you've discussed your home, I would fire his butt for being incompetent. Okay? You don't know. I think I got sort of kind of bull crap. You need to know exactly, and you guys need to get focused. You make too much money to be this broke.

17:22Dave Ramsey:But you all have been intellectually lazy in how you've addressed your personal finances. And if you'll roll up your sleeves and attack this and get some muscle tone to what you're doing, get some intensity to what you're doing, you can clean up this mess in about a year and a half and not have to mess up everything. But if you don't, you're going to make a bigger mess later because there's no in-between in this discussion. There's not a mediocre landscape because you guys have consistently added to the problem. And until you stop adding to the problem and being people that do that, you're going to create more messes.

17:59Dave Ramsey:That's what it comes down to. Folks out there in the listening land, this is why debt consolidation doesn't work too. And this is why when you get an inheritance from your grandmother and you clean up everything and four years later, you're right back in the same mess because your habits haven't changed. Your household processes haven't changed. You've got to address what is wrong with our systems and our hearts and our relationship that's caused us to get to that we can run up these debts with this kind of money.

18:31George Kamel:But we feel better because the junk drawer, we cleaned it up by putting it all in one bucket. And so, hey, look at that. It looks better and feels better, except now you still got the same mountain to face and you can't debt snowball it. So debt consolidation is scary because it makes you think you solved the problem.

18:46Dave Ramsey:Yeah, and you didn't change the habits. And so 88 % of the time someone takes out a debt consolidation loan, they're back in debt within five years, nine out of ten times. Because the debt is not the problem. It's the symptom of intellectual laziness, immaturity, no good systems, bad discussions with or no discussions with my spouse to where we're on the same page. dead is the symptom it's not the problem and so when you just address the symptom expect the problem to stay there and the symptom will grow back it's that simple if you're gonna get uh dandelions out of your yard you can't just cut them with a lawnmower you have to dig them out by the freaking root or they will grow back

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21:23Dave Ramsey:Oscar is in Ottawa. Hi, Oscar. How are you? Hi, how are you? Thank you for asking. Sure. What's up?

21:32George Kamel:uh well long story short i've been dating a polish girl for the past five months ish and everything has been going well except for a few small details that are mostly related to finances like since day one i've been paying for restaurants like going out like activities snacks and everything and she directly mentioned during our conversations that this is a part of her culture, even though she was born in Canada. And me, I'm Iranian. I was born in Iran, raised there, and I've been here like for a couple years. And I know how Western culture functions. And I would like to kind of make sense of it.

22:11George Kamel:I'm also traditional, sort of. But at the same time, I don't see the point of man paying for everything, especially in this economy. And my question is, what is your suggestion? What should I do? Is it like a big red flag, or is it just something that we can kind of figure it out together? Hmm.

22:33Dave Ramsey:That's an interesting question.

22:39Dave Ramsey:So the marriages that I'm aware of that are high quality, and when we're dating, we're, you know, courting, to use an old term, an old word. and we're thinking about that leading toward marriage. So that's why you would ask if this is a red flag or not. Do I want to get involved with this person? And so the marriages that I know that I consider some of the best marriages on the planet that I've been personal witness to are where each of the people involved make the relationship about how much they can serve the other person. Okay. How good can I be to you? So you, how good can I be to her? Her, how good can she be to you?

23:29Dave Ramsey:Instead of what am I getting out of this? In other words, I'm adding value to the relationship instead of taking value. If you're a taker rather than a giver kind of a thing. And so I might look at this through that lens and say, yes, the cultural implication is very real. the economic in this economy, you're always going to be able to say in this economy through the rest of your entire life. You're going to be able to say that from now on. There's always this economy. There's never going to be one that they're just raining money on you and make stupidity okay. There's no economy that does that.

24:08Dave Ramsey:And so there's no this economy. But, you know, so how much do I love this person to the point that I want to serve them and give my life away for them would lead you to not ask this question even?

24:25Dave Ramsey:Okay. Does that make sense? I mean, that makes sense. You're kind of worried about if there's, you know, if this is all— You feel like you're being taken advantage of right now. Yeah, if I'm getting my part of this, yeah.

24:38George Kamel:Are you sensing that from her, that there's a lot of entitlement and expectation? It's not. I wouldn't say it's about expectations. Like, she wouldn't necessarily force me, okay, let's go out. Let's go eat outside.

24:51Dave Ramsey:Okay, is she a money-hungry gold digger?

24:57George Kamel:I would say the first one.

25:00Dave Ramsey:She's money-hungry? Yep. Okay. Let me put it in a cultural setting that I can understand and explain and see if it extrapolates to your situation. I grew up in the Old South. I'm an old Southern redneck. In our world, 100%, the guy pays for everything. Period. Southern gentleman. That's called chivalry in our world. Honor. Okay. But that is a cultural thing. I'll admit that. That's not necessarily true in every part around the world from Iran to Polish to Poland to Canada and some mix of in-between. But that's the world I grew up in. Now, in my world, what I looked for is I don't want to – because I'm willing to pay for everything and that's an act of chivalry.

25:57Dave Ramsey:the last thing I want is a high-maintenance princess that's entitled. That's cray-cray, and I'm going to avoid that woman like the plague. Okay. So one guy said, you know, if you marry a woman that likes spending money, you better enjoy working a lot. You know, and so, no, I'm not getting that. I'm not doing that. But just because I'm going to add an action out of my cultural upbringing, I'm going to pay for everything, doesn't mean I'm going to be taken advantage of.

26:30George Kamel:Is she ordering the fanciest wine on the menu on the first date? Filet mignon? No, that's not what's happening. But let's say in a couple of months, I was planning to go on a trip with her to Europe. And I was just like, we're talking about everything. We set the destination, like which cities and blah, blah, blah. At the end, in the end, I was like, okay, so let's talk finance. Let's see who pays what. And she was like, in my college, usually a man pays the ticket at the hotel, and me, I can be taking care of food, which when I look at it, like ticket and hotel, it's going to be like 90%, 85 % to 90 % of the whole expense.

27:05George Kamel:And the food is like maybe$10 ,000. You know, I might go ahead and take this a step further then and say,

27:09Dave Ramsey:okay, what if we were married? How does this work? Listen, I would love to pay for everything. No, I'm saying I would ask her that. And if she still expects to be coddled, then you've got a princess on your hand, regardless of the cultural issue. A high-maintenance princess. But that's not what it sounds like. It sounds like that, you know, you just got to decide how much of this you're going to pay for. And I don't know whether that's an old guy thing, a southern thing. I don't know. George, you're a Boston guy. Yeah. Did you pay for all your dates growing up? I think it was a little different in the north.

27:45Dave Ramsey:Yes. A little less chivalry. You split dates?

27:47George Kamel:You went Dutch? You know, I didn't get a lot of dates back in my day, Dave. But when I did, I happily paid. I will say that. I'm just so happy to be here. Exactly. This is so exciting. I don't want to mess this up. But to his point, he's going, well, I'm planning a trip to Europe. Well, maybe let's not plan a trip to Europe if you're worried about the finances and then bring it up like your idea. And then she's like, wow, he's taking me to Europe. And now you're going, well, it's going to cost you two grand. So I think let's set up the boundaries earlier on and go on less fancy dates and say, hey, you want to take a walk in the park?

28:18George Kamel:And if she goes, no, I'd rather go out. Well, that's a sign to Dave's point that there is some entitlement there and that she is just wanting to just spend, spend, spend. And I don't know if she's taking advantage of you or not, but I do think it's a red flag to bring up in the relationship before you go further.

28:32Dave Ramsey:The red flag is not as much about her character or your character. I'm suddenly, it's certainly occurring to me as it is that you guys might not be a match. The values are different. Yeah, if you can't get aligned on the handling of money and the value of money in this relationship, that is a red flag for any relationship. If you can't be in agreement on how we're going to handle money in the future together, we can't be in agreement about how we're going to handle crazy in-laws, we can't be in agreement about religion, and we can't be in agreement about kids, how many to have and whether they're going to run the house or whether we're going to run the house, then these are the things that tear a marriage apart.

29:10Dave Ramsey:and the high quality marriages get aligned on those four things and so you're not aligned on that and the fact that you're not aligned is the red flag that's a big red flag it just took me a minute to get there uh i'm trying to wander around in the cultural bullcrap and figure out what's going on here it's beyond culture or whether or not we got a princess on on the line but i don't know that i don't hear that in his description of her i don't hear that about her but could be. He might need to find a penny-pinching gal who loves going to the thrift

29:40George Kamel:store. That might be your type.

29:42Dave Ramsey:How many hours a day they spend on Instagram?

29:45George Kamel:That would be an interesting study. Spending habits versus screen time. Oh, we do know that.

29:50Dave Ramsey:The number of hours on Instagram is directly attributed to amount of spending, 100%.

29:58George Kamel:Did Rachel Cruz tell you that? Personal experience?

30:00Dave Ramsey:No, there's data on that. That's actually real. But I'm just talking about if you're, you know, trying to find happiness in image and happiness in, you know, where we go, what we do, what we eat, then you're going to be hungry your whole life.

30:16George Kamel:If you can't just be happy being at home and bored, then you got a problem. It always has to include spending money.

30:22Dave Ramsey:Exactly. But if you guys cannot work through this and you get comfortable and she gets comfortable, the fact that you're not aligned, Oscar, is the red flag.

31:11George Kamel:Dave, we got a lot of calls on this show where life happens. One day someone's healthy, they're working, providing for their family, and then a curveball hits.

31:19Dave Ramsey:You know, we hear it all the time. A car accident, a cancer diagnosis, a heart attack, and suddenly everything changes.

31:27George Kamel:Yeah, and that's why you've always said that having term life insurance from Xander is essential, because it protects your family if the worst happens.

31:34Dave Ramsey:Yeah, that's right. You need 10 to 12 times your income in coverage. No gimmicks, no whole life junk, just straightforward term life protection. But there's another piece that people often overlook, and that's long-term disability insurance. Yeah, it's important to understand the difference between them.

31:52George Kamel:Life insurance steps in when you die. Disability insurance steps in while you're alive but can't work. So it replaces a large part of your income so the bills still get paid while you get back on your feet.

32:04Dave Ramsey:Now, if your employer gives you free disability insurance, great, take it. If it's discounted there at a better price, take it. But if not, Xander can help you find the right plan. Whether you're single or married, it's not optional. If you're going to be out of work for a while, then you need to make sure the money's still showing up.

32:22George Kamel:And that's why Zander is our go-to. They make it super simple to get the right coverage at the best price, no pressure, no upselling.

32:29Dave Ramsey:I've trusted Jeff Zander and Zander Insurance for over 25 years, and so has my family. So don't wait.

32:36George Kamel:It's fast, it's easy, and it could make all the difference. Go to Zander.com or call 800-356-4282.

32:43Dave Ramsey:Protect yourself, protect your income, protect your family.

33:03Dave Ramsey:Paul is in San Francisco. Hey, Paul, how are you? Hey, thanks for taking my call. Sure. What's up?

33:11George Kamel:So my question is about retirement planning and specifically retirement accounts, my 401k. I have a bit of a unique situation and I get a different opinion from everyone I ask about this. I thought I might call the Ramsey show.

33:29Dave Ramsey:Well, you'll definitely get an opinion.

33:32George Kamel:Yeah, I thought so. It's an interesting one. So I've done decently well for myself so far, but this is my first time having a 401k. and I'm wondering if it makes sense for me to really use the 401k because I found out recently someone in my family had been very, very successful and I knew that eventually I was expecting to probably inherit some of that, but I was able to see, actually read through the trust recently and it's a lot like a lot more than i expected and i'm sort of wondering if i can find security in retirement from that potentially does it make sense for me to not use that 401k and maybe have that money be more valuable to me now or use a roth and roth ira instead

34:33Dave Ramsey:A Roth IRA instead of a 401k?

34:38George Kamel:Not necessarily instead. I have a Roth right now that's pretty small, but I'm just saying instead of trying to retire, I'm 21.

34:48Dave Ramsey:Oh, okay. And what do you make a year, sir?

34:54George Kamel:About$330 ,000. Wow.

34:57Dave Ramsey:What do you do? In tech. Good for you. Well done. Okay. And how much is in this trust that's supposed to come to you?

35:06George Kamel:So there are a lot of different people, not a lot, a handful. I think it's six different beneficiaries in the trust, but it's low to mid-eight figures. So I would think that that's plenty to retire on, especially if that's going to grow over time.

35:24Dave Ramsey:I'm sorry, so you're going to receive$100 million, your part?

35:31George Kamel:I mean if you're accounting for how it's going to grow

35:33Dave Ramsey:that might be what it's worth total I mean divide that by five maybe oh divided by five well that's a lot different so you might get do you think 10 and 20 million dollars

35:46George Kamel:I would think so

35:47Dave Ramsey:and about how many years out do we think this might be

35:53George Kamel:well I mean like we said I'm pretty young

35:55Dave Ramsey:how many years before this person dies and you get your$20 million, dude? Roughly. Maybe 20. Okay. 20 to 30. So you'd be like 40 years old. Okay. All right. Yeah. So, no, I would not put my life on hold and quit investing and quit building wealth on my own because I might get an inheritance 20 years from now. Absolutely not. I would pretend like that's not coming and live my life properly and with discipline and with dignity. When you save money, it says something about your character and your maturity. It's not a math thing. And so it's good for you to develop a life that's good for Paul. And if in addition to that you get an extra$20 million, well, that puts you in a position to be outrageously generous someday and change your whole family tree in addition to the money that you make because you could easily, making$330 ,000 starting at$21 ,000, you should be a multimillionaire by the time this money comes.

37:03Dave Ramsey:And if you don't, then you just pissed it away and you're an immature child.

37:08George Kamel:Yeah, no, I live quite frugally, actually. I have no debt.

37:12Dave Ramsey:Well, I mean, there's a lot of options here. There's three things we can do with money. We can spend it and enjoy it, and you should. You can give it and be generous with it, and you should. and you can save and invest it and you should. All three are good for your character. They're good for your psyche. They're good for your spiritual walk. All three are good for the math. All three cause you to have a high quality person and be a person that someone listening would want their daughter to date. A trust fund baby who put life on hold waiting on an inheritance 20 years from now is not someone I want my daughter to date.

37:49Dave Ramsey:This is not a man with big broad shoulders.

37:53George Kamel:Yeah, that you got to not let that muscle atrophy and if you start flexing this now and you have that delayed gratification muscle going that wealth building muscle Then you're going to treat the money differently If I was handed 20 million dollars that I didn't actually put away and earn I'm going to treat it differently than money that I socked away for 20 years And I think that delayed gratification lesson is worth learning

38:14Dave Ramsey:One definition of maturity is learning is the emotional ability to delay pleasure That's one of the definitions And so, yeah, I want that for you, not because of the money or the math or not because you're going to need money. You may or may not need money. If this comes through, you're not going to need money. But I want it for who you become as a person, as a man, as a woman, if you're out there listening, who you become while you get out of debt, who you become while you sacrifice and work extra to clean up a mess, who you become in your marriage and in your relationship, what your relationship looks like.

38:49Dave Ramsey:because we struggled together and we both put our shoulder to the wheel and push together. Who we become is more important than what we end up with mathematically. And so I don't want you to be atrophied from lack of use of your lack of maturity that you grow into. So no, I would pretend like that money's not coming instead of using it as a demotivator.

39:18George Kamel:And if you're so frugal, you're going to have plenty of money left over to max out all retirement accounts and still have an incredible life.

39:24Dave Ramsey:Yeah. You're a sharp guy to 21. And still enjoy. I mean, I'm not saying don't spend and enjoy money. We always say do that. And in your case, God, you're 21, you make 300 grand. Gee, man, even cricket. I mean, that's amazing. Enjoy some of it. So, yeah, but you need to be giving some of it and saving some of it and enjoying some of it. Always be doing all three. Melissa is in Greenville, South Carolina. Hi, Melissa. How are you?

39:46George Kamel:Hi, I'm good. Thanks. Thank you guys so much for what you do. I listen every day and just feel like I learn so, so much.

39:52Dave Ramsey:Thanks. How can we help?

39:55George Kamel:So my husband is in regional sales and he drives about 350 to 400 miles for work on his personal vehicle every week. Unfortunately, a company car. Yeah. Unfortunately, a company car isn't available to him. And up to this point, we've just chosen to manage that by budgeting for a car payment on a new car in order to keep him in something reliable with minimal maintenance with that kind of mileage. But I'm curious. I know that that's not what you would suggest, but I'm curious just with our situation, how you might suggest we avoid that without draining our savings every few years to buy a car in cash that isn't really going to last the mileage that he puts on it.

40:38Dave Ramsey:Mm-hmm. Okay. Can we agree that the amount of miles he's putting on the car is absolutely destroying the car's value?

40:49George Kamel:Yeah. Yes.

40:50Dave Ramsey:Yeah. I mean, it's worth nothing when he's through with it. Okay. So we're taking something and making it worth nothing as a function of his job. And so if you're running a business, what you would do is you would buy the least expensive car that would, in quotes, get the job done. Now, what gets the job done? What does that mean? Well, it means two things for me if I'm in his shoes. Number one, it means reliability. I have to be able to get to the job and get the sale made, right? Number two, it has to be reasonably comfortable because I live in a stupid thing.

41:27George Kamel:Right.

41:28Dave Ramsey:Okay, so we're not going to put him in a smart car. or a Dodge Neon.

41:32George Kamel:He's also 6 '3", so that might not be a great idea. I rest my case.

41:36Dave Ramsey:So, yeah, it needs to be reasonably comfortable. But what people do in your old situation is, instead of buying a$20 ,000 car that would do all of that and destroying$20 ,000, they buy a$60 ,000 car and destroy$60 ,000. And that's not necessary to get the job done. So I would buy a$20 ,000 car with an every-two-year replacement plan. and I would pay cash for it. Period. You should recommend...

42:08George Kamel:I guess my question...

42:09Dave Ramsey:You're breaking up, huh? You have to walk back to wherever you are.

42:12George Kamel:Just know that the average new car loses 60 % of its value in the first five years.

42:17Dave Ramsey:And hers loses 60 % in the first year.

42:20George Kamel:Exactly. So you're better off buying a six-year-old car for$20 ,000 and driving that into the ground because someone else already prepaid the depreciation.

42:27Dave Ramsey:That's the lesson here. You know, just whatever it is, you're destroying that amount of money. So destroy the least amount of money possible to get the job done. For me, that's a$20 ,000 car in this situation. And every two years, I need$20 ,000. So I need to be setting aside that much every month to replace the stupid car all the time. But no, I would not be driving something fancy. You don't need eye candy when you're a road warrior. I love entrepreneurs. Don't forget, guys, I started my company on a card table myself. So I know what it's like to have people counting on you, your team, your family, not to mention your customers.

43:02Dave Ramsey:And when you're the one signing the paychecks, you can't afford to fly blind. But I'll be honest, early on, one thing that nearly sunk us was wasting time with spreadsheets that didn't add up because business units didn't talk to each other. I finally told my team, just fix it. And they did. We got NetSuite. That was years ago. And we've never looked back. See, NetSuite isn't just for tech giants. It's built for growing businesses like yours. Over 43 ,000 businesses already run on NetSuite, including a lot that started just like you. And now with built-in AI, NetSuite is helping them even more.

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44:18Dave Ramsey:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. George Camel, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author, is my co-host. Jacob is in Dallas. Hey, Jacob, how are you? Hey, brother. Thank you for taking my call. Sure, man. What's up?

44:34George Kamel:Yeah, so I think I'm in a bit of a unique situation. I had a net worth north of the seven-figure mark around, I want to say, probably a month ago. Or, yeah, a month and a half ago. So I made some poor decisions, led to a significant downturn in my net worth, downturn and everything, and trying to just reframe my mindset and decide the next steps to go from here.

44:57Dave Ramsey:That was pretty vague. So you had like a million dollars? Yeah, I had probably around$1.9 million. $1.9 million. Okay, and what did you do that screwed it up? Gambling, lifestyle inflation. Lifestyle inflation? Yeah, I mean, partying, doing the whole nine yards. Okay. So what did you buy?

45:23George Kamel:I mean, it was more so just going out, traveling, clubbing, bottles, cars, Airbnbs. It was poor decisions. And then a lot of gambling, I think. What kind of gambling? So what kind of drugs were you doing? I mean, it was more so just like cocaine.

45:42Dave Ramsey:Yeah. The whole nine yards. Just like, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So have you been to rehab yet, hon? I have not, no. I think I didn't have necessarily a drug problem.

45:56George Kamel:It was more so just—

45:56Dave Ramsey:Oh, no, you have a drug problem. There's no question. It was all in your story. I heard it. You definitely have a drug problem, and you definitely have a gambling problem, and you definitely have a lot of problems. So what are we doing to fix the problems?

46:10George Kamel:um well i did start going to gambling or going to therapy for gambling specifically um that was like the main step and then uh downsized all my life cut back on majority of my expenses just reframing everything going from there

46:28Dave Ramsey:okay so what did you or do you do for a living um i did a lot of marketing and crypto go okay are you still doing that um yeah i just recently stopped after this last hit

46:44George Kamel:uh lost kind of all motivation so do you have a full-time job or are you just playing with crypto as kind of a another form of gambling and you've made some money well i mean i i said i was making around five to six figures every month consistently for the last But I'm also in college, so this was all just a side time thing that was working out really well, I guess.

47:06Dave Ramsey:How old are you, honey? I'm 20. 20? Yep. Okay. All right, so you chased the rainbow and it didn't bring you happiness. Is that the moral of the story?

47:24George Kamel:Yeah, I would say that. I mean, the money was nice, but it wasn't necessarily my fulfillment.

47:31Dave Ramsey:Well, it led you to a life that was just out of control and not fun. It was supposed to be fun, but at the end of the day, it just looked like a stupid kid losing all his money and snorting cocaine. When you look back on it, that's got to be what you see.

47:47George Kamel:Yeah, 100%. I don't condone any of the actions, nor do I think that it was the smartest decision at the time.

47:53Dave Ramsey:So where I'm going is, is that I don't know what drove you to get to that point.

48:05But, yeah.

48:07Dave Ramsey:Okay, so what would I tell my son if he was 20 years old and called me and was in the exact situation? It sounds like you need a complete reset of what you think life is about. and someone told you that it was about getting a lot of money quickly and easily and that you're smart and that you could do that, and then you could go do anything you wanted to do. And so the good news is you got hedonism out of your system really early in your life. The bad news is it cost you a couple million dollars to do it. And so, you know, I would take you from Wolf of Wall Street to a monk. I'd go the other end of the spectrum and just go, I'm just going to be a boring, calm, steady guy, which is the opposite of everything you have been.

49:06Dave Ramsey:In order to reset your brain and reset your spirit, I'd plug into a good local church.

49:14Dave Ramsey:And one of the things I had to assess, and I kind of smell it here. I'm not sure if I do. And you can correct me if you want to. I don't care. When I went broke in my 20s, one of the things I figured out was I wasn't as hot as I thought I was. It pretty much took my little ego and grounded under a boot. And because I'm pretty smart and I was doing some pretty smart, high leverage, fun things. Nothing like you've done. But but I mean, I had it going. And then when I hit the wall and the car just disintegrated and the NASCAR wrecked the engines up in the stands, right? I mean, this thing's just gone.

49:55Dave Ramsey:One of the things I had to come to grips with is I wasn't as hot as I thought I was. And that helped me reset. And I settled way down into a more psychologically and spiritually healthy rhythm to reset my life. And I think that's what I want for you because I like you.

50:18George Kamel:Yeah. No, I think I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, yeah, during this whole span, especially this last hit, I think I became insanely depressed. I was definitely going through an episode. Like, it was terrible. When I was flying, I was spending$100 ,000 at the club. I'd fly back. Then I'd go gamble, like,$500 ,000. At a point, I was playing, like, multiple six-figure hands. Like, what I see is 1.9. I mean, that was slow, obviously. I mean, I'd have wins. I'd have losses. And this also included my cash flow, but I was very cash flow-heavy. Why do you even need money right now as a college kid? I mean, I think...

50:53Dave Ramsey:Are you in college?

50:54George Kamel:I don't necessarily... Yeah, I'm in college. I mean, I don't think it was necessarily about... What are you studying? Marketing. Well, I was... Yeah, marketing.

51:04Dave Ramsey:Okay.

51:04George Kamel:You've been going to classes and completing all the assignments? I did until this last year. I think I went off the rails this last year.

51:12Dave Ramsey:Yeah, okay. Well, I, yeah, the behaviors got you into the mess and to get the, I would go to the opposite end of the behaviors to create healing. And so look at every one of the behaviors and what are the roots of each of the behaviors and how can I avoid those? So one of the things I fell for that you did as well is get rich quick. And I thought I'm smart enough. I can do this. I can build wealth quickly and easily. Other people don't know how to do it. I'm quick enough with numbers. I can do this. I can pull this off. And that's what I did, not at the scale you, well, actually at the scale you did, I had better net worth than you had, but at 23.

51:55Dave Ramsey:But I lost it all because I built a house of cards. And, you know, I wasn't playing long ball. Everything was short ball. Everything was just get on base, just get on base. And there was no infinite game. There was no eternity thought. There was no thought of heaven. There was no thought of other people matter. It was simply get the thing done, get the thing done, turn the deal, turn the deal. And so I had to go to the other end of the spectrum when I went broke, and I had the benefit of losing everything and going bankrupt. And I got the opportunity to start over. I met God on the way up, Jacob.

52:33Dave Ramsey:I got to know him on the way down. And you desperately need to get to know him. right now. It's your only shot out of this. So I'd check into a great church in the area, start talking to some of the businessmen in that church that love Jesus, and let them talk to you about how to reform what a man really is inside of you.

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54:03Dave Ramsey:Meredith is in Greenville, South Carolina. Hi, Meredith. How are you?

54:07George Kamel:Hi, Mr. Ramsey. How are you?

54:09Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

54:12George Kamel:yeah so um my husband and i have two young kids under the age of four we currently run a small duplex for about 785 a month and we have about seven dollars i mean sorry four thousand dollars in savings and the only bit we have is a credit card but we pay that off every month like completely off we're about to receive a 2.6 million dollar lawsuit for a medical malpractice and we didn't grow up with money. So honestly, we're kind of scared, and we just want to make sure we're doing the right thing for our families. So my question to you would be, what would be the wisest thing for us to do, and how should we handle this?

54:55Dave Ramsey:It's a fabulous question. I really, really like your spirit and your attitude. Thank you so much. you are very wise to be scared. Okay. And because you don't, you know, you're smart enough to know that you don't know how to handle 2.6 million. Now, so a couple of principles are this. Number one, keep doing what you just did. The Bible says in the multitude of counsel, there is safety. and so you start bringing people into your life to advise you not to do it for you but to teach you to teach you okay and there's a couple of three people um if you want to write this down you can or you can go back and watch it or listen to it later when it comes out and hits the podcast um but the the first person you guys need is a financial advisor someone to help you with your investing.

55:57Dave Ramsey:And you can go to RamseySolutions.com, click on SmartVestor Pro, and sit down with a couple of those and interview them. Now, what you're doing is you're interviewing someone that you are comfortable with, you feel good about, they're not intimidating. Instead, they have the heart of a teacher. Anyone in the financial world that does not have the heart of a teacher and instead starts dropping their glasses on the end of their nose and wagging their finger and saying, you need to do this because I said do it, you should run from them. Yes, sir. So your job is to manage this money, not that person.

56:39Dave Ramsey:That person's job is to teach you to be a little bit better at managing money. So principle number one is we're going to put a group of those people in our lives. We're going to have a financial advisor and like a mutual fund broker. Okay. We're going to get an insurance person that knows insurance. We're going to get a real estate person because I got a feeling you're going to buy a house. You're going to get that at Ramsey Trusted at the website if you want people. Because we do not put a Ramsey Trusted label on these people unless they have the heart of a teacher. Okay. You need a tax advisor.

57:15George Kamel:Okay.

57:16Dave Ramsey:Okay. So insurance, real estate, investing, and tax. Those four people become your little board of directors. And again, their job is not to tell you what to do. Their job is to teach you some of the things you could choose to do. Okay. Principle number one, heart of a teacher, not babysitter. Okay. Principle number two, do not put money in something unless you understand it.

57:49Dave Ramsey:okay if it feels good or they oh well he seems to know what he's doing honey we're going to go with him those are the words people say right before they get scammed okay so you say i don't understand this yet so we're not doing it yet okay because it's your job before god to manage this money not theirs and so we don't we don't do stuff until we understand it. And if it's brand new and you're brand new to it, that's okay. You don't know how to ride a bicycle yet. You just got your first bicycle. So it may take a minute to balance, right? That's okay. That's okay. You know, but you don't go buy a$30 ,000 Harley and you can't ride a bicycle.

58:36Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Okay. And so we get our skills up and our competence and confidence up, and that will give you great peace about this. Principle number three, go slower than you think you should. For some reason, we feel like we have to become competent and sophisticated overnight, and it takes a little while. The first time you buy a house, you've never seen that much paperwork. The first time you open a mutual fund, you've never seen that much paperwork. The first time, you know, when you're eight years old and you open a bank account, it's intimidating. But once you've opened 30 of them, it's not a big deal.

59:20Dave Ramsey:So take, give yourself the grace to go slow and to learn and not put money in something until you're ready. So it's okay to park this money in something super boring that is not sophisticated while you spend some time learning.

59:42Dave Ramsey:Does that feel right to your spirit? Most definitely.

59:45George Kamel:I got it written down.

59:47Dave Ramsey:Okay.

59:47George Kamel:How old are you guys? I am 29 and my husband is 38.

59:53Dave Ramsey:Wow. And a good framework, if you want to figure out how to apply this money and start working your way through as you understand it, and as you increase your speed just a little bit on some of these things, and as some of these people with the heart of a teacher advise you, is I would walk right up the baby steps that we walk everybody up. And so that's become debt-free. Pay off all your debts. Get on a written budget, and you live on your income. You don't touch this money. You don't need this money to live. You just live on the income that's coming into the house. You're living on it now, so keep living on it.

1:00:26Dave Ramsey:And don't increase your lifestyle to where you're having to drain this money to support your lifestyle. Keep living on your income. And if you do that and you use this money to step through the baby steps, The$2.6 million could literally be$20 million in about 20 years.

1:00:42George Kamel:Yeah, see, we don't have it. We just use our credit card for gas.

1:00:47Dave Ramsey:Oh, you would get rid of the credit card because you don't need it anymore. Use a debit card.

1:00:52George Kamel:Okay.

1:00:52Dave Ramsey:And you get on a budget, and the two of you know exactly where every dollar is going. Now, the duplex, do you own it or are you renting it?

1:01:00George Kamel:No, sir, we're renting it.

1:01:02Dave Ramsey:Okay, so you're probably going to go buy your house and pay cash for it.

1:01:06George Kamel:Yes, sir. We were thinking about somebody that told us about getting a duplex. No, I just go buy a house.

1:01:13Dave Ramsey:Okay. You don't need to get fancy. Just go buy a house. Go buy you a nice house that's, I don't know,$200 ,000 or$300 ,000 in Greenville, South Carolina, is a pretty dead gum good house. Yes, sir. It's nicer than the duplex you're living in.

1:01:26George Kamel:Yeah, definitely.

1:01:27Dave Ramsey:Yeah. And top off your emergency fund. So if you spend$400K out of$2.6 million and you pay cash for a house and you don't have any payments anymore on a house and you have no payments anywhere else, no other debt, and you're living on a budget, then the rest of that money can go to completely change your all's future. If you'll live in the present like grownups and avoid – and I know you're going to do this because I could tell by the way you asked the question coming out of the gate. Avoid the need or avoid the thing of, oh, I hit the lottery and I'm rich. You're really not rich. This money will be gone in about 20 minutes if you start screwing around with it.

1:02:03Dave Ramsey:Exactly.

1:02:04George Kamel:We just took that call. So you can be very wise with this. I just crunched some numbers for you. You said you're 29 years old. If you just pretended this money did not exist and at 62 you looked up and said, hey, we can retire, it'd be$81 million in there. If you just didn't touch it and forgot it existed and it was invested wisely.

1:02:22Dave Ramsey:So that's what we're talking about here. Now you're going to use some of it, though. So it's not going to be quite that much. It's probably only going to be$60 million. You'll enjoy some and you'll give some.

1:02:30George Kamel:You'll cover your kids' college funds and help them get started in their adult life. But that's the kind of stuff you can do if you handle this wisely, and I think you will.

1:02:38Dave Ramsey:But it's number one, do not take advice from someone unless they have the heart of a teacher. Number two, don't put money in stuff unless you understand it. Number three, go slower than you think you should. It's okay. Give yourself time to catch up. You're not an expert on this. You didn't grow up with money. You didn't grow up with people talking about money. This is a new thing, and it's okay to learn something new and take a little time to do that. But that's how money gets away from people is they violate those three things. Hang on. We're going to send you a copy of the Total Money Makeover as our gift.

1:03:16Dave Ramsey:We don't need anything from you, and we're also going to set you up in the Every Dollar Budgeting System, and that will guide you through the process, and then you guys make your decisions and be smart. and Meredith, we're here. If you need some more help, you call us anytime.

1:03:47Hey,

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1:05:16George Kamel:Today's question comes from McKenzie in Washington. My husband and I are in a considerable amount of debt, including two car loans, two student loans, credit cards, taxes, and our mortgage. We barely make it through each month and rely on credit cards to bridge the gap. We have$100 ,000 in a high-yield savings account. Do we pull out all of our savings and pay off everything except the house and have no emergency fund? We are in our early 50s and contribute to retirement but don't have much in there yet. We are scared to deplete our savings account. What should we do? I mean, you got a life raft sitting there and you're going further into debt on these credit cards.

1:05:53George Kamel:Absolutely. Drain that high-yield savings down to just your starter emergency fund right now and knock out the debt if you can. I don't know if it will knock out all the debt, but the mortgage, it sounds like it will.

1:06:04Dave Ramsey:Yeah, the way you're describing it will. So, McKenzie, here's the thing. You've got to cut up the credit cards and never use them again, ever. You have to get on a written, detailed budget, get the EveryDollar app, and get yourself going, you and your husband working together. absolutely the only way you're going to survive this you probably need to sell one or both cars

1:06:32Dave Ramsey:because i don't we don't know the numbers they're not here but i'm going to guess and say a large portion of this might be car debt it usually is that's how we guess that it's not a hard guess and then i would drain my savings and be 100 debt free you you know let's pretend that of your debt that one of the cars is a$50 ,000 car debt and you owe 50 on it and it's worth 40. Use some of your hundred to pay the difference and sell the car. Cover the upside down amount and then use another 10 ,000 and buy you a$10 ,000 car for cash. Okay, that uses 20 of your hundred in that example, instead of simply paying off the$50 ,000 car.

1:07:19Dave Ramsey:Especially because you're behind on retirement.

1:07:21George Kamel:I mean, you said you're scared to deplete your savings. I'm scared you're not going to be able to retire. That's a much bigger problem. You can build back up the savings, but you guys get to get on this.

1:07:29Dave Ramsey:You can build back up the savings and you can build back up your retirement when you don't have any stinking payments. Free up all those. That's probably a few thousand dollars in payments. But here's what's happened. You guys are normal. And normal in America sucks. You've got two car loans, two student loans, credit cards, and you don't make enough to cover your bills. because you've put yourself so far in debt, buying crap you couldn't afford with money you didn't have to impress people you don't even really like. You're a normal American. I guarantee there are six-figure earners. Yeah. So what you've got to do now is you have to stop being normal.

1:08:04Dave Ramsey:And that means get highly organized, highly intense, and I'm going to make every dollar of our income behave, and we aren't buying anything unless we pay cash for it for the rest of our lives. If you can't pay cash for it, you can't buy it for the rest of your life. And then you'll have your income freed up to put your retirement in place, build some wealth, and put your emergency fund back in place if you've used it all with this$100 ,000. But you should use the$100 ,000 today, and you probably should sell one or two cars and get some less expensive cars. You can move back up in car later after you become wealthy.

1:08:46Dave Ramsey:But right now you're just broke people. So you need to be acting like broke people instead of rich people. Andrew's in Atlanta. Hi, Andrew. How are you? I'm well, Mr. Dave. How about yourself? Better than I deserve. How can I help?

1:09:02George Kamel:Hey, so I'm just giving you a call today because I am in a pickle. I am supposed to be getting married in Italy and my family, or at least my side of the family, has basically let me know that they have, you know, they don't really have the savings or the money anymore to go. So I'm on baby step two. I only have about$2 ,000 less in my car alone. I have about$3 ,000 saved and I have - Why the heck are you getting married in Italy if you're broke? Um, well, it's, it's her family's doing, her side is well off. And, you know, they, they asked us, what do we want? We always dreamed of getting married in Italy.

1:09:47Dave Ramsey:I don't think there's any we, I think it's what she wanted and you got hooked into it.

1:09:52George Kamel:Well, no, it's something that we always spoke about when we first got together. Like it was like a joke, like, yeah, we can get married in Italy one day. And, you know, and then it actually became a real thing. um so yeah i mean they're willing to you know pay for it and okay andrew wait a minute i'm sorry

1:10:09Dave Ramsey:let me stop you for a second there's a hundred percent chance when you were planning all this that you knew your family couldn't afford it um well i told them a year ahead no no no no you know your family you grew up with them you knew they didn't have any money yeah i mean i mean i

1:10:27George Kamel:i told them to save and and they told me that they were saving they were good and then now we're here and they're like, hey, you know, we didn't save. So I'm just kind of in a pickle. So you're not in a pickle.

1:10:38Dave Ramsey:You're not in a pickle.

1:10:39George Kamel:They are. They won't be able to attend your wedding. Well, that's the thing. I never thought I would be getting married without having my family there to support me. And I feel like now I'm just going to get married and it's just going to be a whole gang of her family. Yeah. And I'm just there. That's a bummer. You have a right to be disappointed with your family.

1:10:59Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Not really. Not really. No. I mean, I disagree. Andrew, I, I, I, for you to think they were going to do this was, um, you, you knew your family, you grew up with them. You knew they didn't have money. You knew they weren't going to be able to save this money and you wanted to go to Italy anyway. And so this didn't sneak up on you. I don't agree. And it's not, I don't, not do with them being irresponsible. They're just is who they is. And you plan a wedding, a place your people, your people can't afford to go to, Man, that's awful. I'm sorry. So I guess you just have a big celebration of some kind, get some barbecue when you get back, put it in the backyard on the picnic table, and let's have a little throwdown when you get home, right?

1:11:39George Kamel:Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the plan. Okay. Maybe I can do that. What was your plan if you didn't call us? There was no plan, really. I mean, don't get me wrong. I thought about maybe doing something like locally, but honestly, with me being on Baby Step 2, I don't really have, you know, enough funds to do something that would be big, you know, or that would be nice for my family, at least.

1:12:05Dave Ramsey:Yeah, so her family's paying your plane ticket.

1:12:09George Kamel:They're paying for everything. We already got our plane tickets probably about like a year ago.

1:12:16Dave Ramsey:On your own? Yeah. No, I mean, their family's paying for everything. They bought the plane. Her dad bought the plane.

1:12:22George Kamel:So you're not paying a dime for anything involved.

1:12:24Dave Ramsey:Yeah. He doesn't have any money. He's got$2 ,000. No.

1:12:27George Kamel:Yeah. How old are you two? We're both 20, 25. Okay. You're both working full time? No. I pretty much pay everything and do everything. She stay at home. But it's our money. I'm real big on the Ramsey. We. Not I.

1:12:44Dave Ramsey:You guys have kids? No, you're not big on the Ramsey Wee because you're not married.

1:12:51George Kamel:Yeah.

1:12:52Dave Ramsey:Ramsey Wee doesn't apply to you're married. We tell you not to combine money until you're married. Remember? Or did you know that?

1:13:01George Kamel:Yes. Yes, definitely did.

1:13:04Dave Ramsey:Okay. All right. So how long have you two been living together? We've been together about, living together probably about two, three years now. Okay.

1:13:23Dave Ramsey:When is the Italy wedding? Roughly about 30 days from now. Okay. It's probably not going to go over well. No, your parents don't get to go to Italy. You don't have the money, and you're not going to go borrow money to send them to Italy. You're broke. There's another alternative. I don't think it's going to work because I don't think the people involved in this story are going to do it. But what you could do is go get married next weekend and have your family and their family there. I have a friend that did that because the kids wanted to move in together and they were Christians and didn't want to live together before they were married.

1:14:01Dave Ramsey:And so they went and got married like 60 days before the destination wedding and moved in, married, moved in together. And the family was all present for the little wedding at a little chapel. and then they went to Paris is where they got married and did a destination in Paris. You could do that.

1:14:47Dave Ramsey:Hey, if you're working the baby steps, the best and fastest way to get out of debt and into wealth is by using every dollar. Now, this is more than just a budgeting app. It's a plan built right in. It's our plan. You walk the Ramsey Plan. We're going to help you track your progress. You get a personalized recommendation all the time, continuously from us. We're going to push you, pull you, wink at you, yell at you, smile at you to get you to do this stuff, and it'll help you free up more money and work the plan even faster. It's like having one of us walk in with you every day. Start every dollar for free by downloading it in the App Store or Google Play.

1:15:24Dave Ramsey:Wyatt is in Fargo, North Dakota. Hi, Wyatt. How are you? I'm good. How are you today? Better than I deserve. What's up?

1:15:33George Kamel:I am calling today to ask if I should repair my credit score. No. Just no.

1:15:45Dave Ramsey:Just no. Yeah. Let me back up then and tell you why and where that came from. All right. Okay. So there's only one way to repair your credit score, and that is to go to borrowing money, and the paying on time of the borrowed money begins to flush out and push the old late payments to the back of the file, and the further to the back of the file they get, the better the credit score gets. In other words, if you have three things on your credit report and they're all negative because you were late on them, and you put ten things on your credit report that are all positive and you're on time on them, It will shift your, that's how you repair your credit.

1:16:30Yep.

1:16:31Dave Ramsey:But you can't make the actual late payments history go away. You can just push it to the back and overwhelm it with new debt. That's how people repair credit. The other way you can repair credit is if there's something inaccurate on your credit bureau, you can have that removed. But that's probably not what we're talking about. And then let's go past that and then rise up above the whole thing and say that a credit score is not an indication that you're winning with money. A credit score is 100 % derived from an algorithm. Fair Isaac wrote the score. That's where it came from. And the algorithm is 100 % how you interact with debt.

1:17:21Dave Ramsey:So what kind of debt you have, how you pay the debt, how much debt you have, those are the things that create your credit score. So your credit score is actually not a credit score or an I'm winning with money score. It's actually an I love debt score. Mathematically. Mathematically. Yeah. And so, you know, I don't want an I love debt score. I want a high net worth.

1:17:53George Kamel:so think about it this way Wyatt a good score just means you're good at managing debt a bad score means you were bad at managing debt none of that has to do with actual wealth building so let's get you to build some wealth instead and that involves paying off your debt

1:18:08Dave Ramsey:and at that point you won't have a score so what I would do is how many bad things have you got on your report?

1:18:16George Kamel:Quite a bit. Not from me, though.

1:18:20Dave Ramsey:Okay, wait a minute. That doesn't make sense. How can you have stuff on your report that's not from you?

1:18:25George Kamel:Because back when I was a child, my mother took out credit cards in my name. That's identity theft, honey.

1:18:32Dave Ramsey:It's fraud. That's fraud.

1:18:35George Kamel:I'm aware. And she took out money in my name. She's paid it all back at this point, but my credit score has suffered severely because of it.

1:18:47Dave Ramsey:How old are you?

1:18:49George Kamel:I'm 22 now.

1:18:51Dave Ramsey:Okay. All right. I would submit identity theft on every one of those accounts

1:19:00Dave Ramsey:and have them removed. Okay. Yeah.

1:19:07George Kamel:Did you use the money she paid you to pay the debts off?

1:19:10Dave Ramsey:You didn't get any of this money. She just stole your identity. Your mother's a thief.

1:19:17George Kamel:Yeah.

1:19:17Dave Ramsey:Yeah.

1:19:19George Kamel:Sorry.

1:19:20Dave Ramsey:It's heartbreaking to say that out loud. Yeah.

1:19:25George Kamel:We have a complicated relationship. I bet. At least.

1:19:32Dave Ramsey:Unless you're insane, you would have a complicated relationship. Because you'd have to be insane to go along with this.

1:19:41George Kamel:Yeah. I mean, I'm doing great now, but it's following me, and it's affecting interest rates and stuff.

1:19:48Dave Ramsey:Well, it affects interest rates only if you're borrowing money.

1:19:53George Kamel:Which I'm not doing much of anymore.

1:19:55Dave Ramsey:Okay, then you don't have to worry about it.

1:19:56George Kamel:Just don't do any.

1:19:57Dave Ramsey:What do you need a debt for right now? So, okay, there's two answers to the question. One, the first answer I gave you is the correct answer. Don't worry about repairing your credit in the sense of don't worship at the altar of the FICO score. Because it doesn't affect interest rates. For me, I don't have a credit score, and I have zero credit, and I have zero debt. So I don't have a problem with interest rates. And that's where I want you to get to, okay? Now, then let's go to the other part of this, and that is that you were abused as a child. Your mother's a financial abuser. she stole your identity and messed up your electronic reputation and so you should file identity theft and on every one of those accounts that you did not open and have them removed they're probably going to require that you do a police report and identify the thief they will do nothing to her they should they should put her in jail but they won't um but the good news is they actually didn't lose anything because she actually went and paid them, but she just paid them late.

1:21:03Dave Ramsey:Is that what you told us?

1:21:05George Kamel:Yeah, really late, but yeah.

1:21:07Dave Ramsey:So they won't do anything to her because they got their money, but you're going to have to go through some steps and you can have every bit of that completely removed and you should from your credit bureau report. I would if I were you. Do you want to work on that? If you want to work on that, I've got somebody that will help you do it.

1:21:26George Kamel:No, you're not going to do it. You're not going to do it. That was a long pause. That's okay.

1:21:30Dave Ramsey:That was a big um. You're not going to address your mother ever again. Okay. So anyway, you're going to live with this then, and you're just going to live with it. And over time, after it's been on there, after the account has no activity for seven years, it will completely fall off. But if you want to address it, folks, Xander Insurance's identity theft will take care of it. And if you have out there identity theft in place before this happens, which he couldn't have known, he was four years old. But I was going to offer him Xander, but I'm not now because I don't think he's going to do it. So I'm not going to waste my time.

1:22:01Dave Ramsey:All right. Ben is in Jacksonville, Florida. Hey, Ben, what's up? Hey, sir. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. How can we help?

1:22:10George Kamel:So I think I'm on baby step six, but there are two asterisks. One, I don't know if I've saved enough for my daughter's college. And two, I still have a rental house that's not paid off.

1:22:22Dave Ramsey:Rental house would be in baby step six and four, five and six run simultaneously. Okay. Not progressively. And so if you're on baby step four, you're on baby step six. Four, five and six run at the same time. So we're saving for 15 % for retirement. We're saving towards kids college. If you think you got that done, you could stop that and then you continue on. And that would put more on baby step six, which would be to clear off mortgages in baby step six. Okay. Is that logical? It does. Yes, it is. Okay. How much you got saved for the kiddo? About$40 ,000 in the 529. How old is she? She's in kindergarten.

1:23:06Dave Ramsey:She's about to turn six. You got enough.

1:23:09George Kamel:And I also have a GI bill.

1:23:12Dave Ramsey:You definitely got enough. You did a great job. Thank you for your service to the country, and thank you for being a great dad. Way to go, dude. You're crushing it. Yeah, both of those. You've got an A-plus on both categories. Well done. Also, make sure that 529 now is invested in good growth stock mutual funds. If it is, it will double every seven years, which means it's going to be$160 ,000 by the time she gets there. I think that should be enough. Yeah, that's what I said. I think it's enough. I think you're done. Boxes checked.

1:23:44George Kamel:You did great, man. That's$40 ,000 a year. And that's if they don't get scholarships and you get the GI Bill on top of that. So you could stop funding it at this rate. Yeah, and now just start going over that mortgage and knock it out. Trust those mortgages.

1:23:55Dave Ramsey:Knock out that rental mortgage and the home mortgage before you do that.

1:23:58George Kamel:And by the time she's in college, you could cash flow any other expenses that come your way.

1:24:01Dave Ramsey:There we go. It's going to be a good life, man. Life is great. Well done, Ben. See what happens when you pay attention, boys and girls?

1:24:46Dave Ramsey:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, George Campbell. Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Jordan is in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Hi, Jordan, how are you? Hi, I'm doing good. Thanks for taking my call. Sure, what's up?

1:25:04George Kamel:Well, I am currently 42 years old, have my house paid off, no debt, own all of my cars. I really haven't started a retirement fund other than my pension I have from the government that I work at. And I have a lot of collectibles, and I'm trying to determine if I should sell them and put that into a retirement account or let them continue to increase in value and sell them later.

1:25:34Dave Ramsey:Okay. I would make sure you got a retirement account started. If it requires selling the collectibles to do that, I would. But if it doesn't, then you might keep them. The rule on collectibles is this. As a category, collectibles, which would be like coins, art, antiques, guns, anything that falls in that category, As a category, collectibles do not keep up with a good mutual fund investment. However, people who are into a particular hobby generally will make a good enough purchase on the collectible and know the particular nuances of it. For instance, a car collection, a person that's really into cars, you can make more on that because you have knowledge in it than you would make on a mutual fund.

1:26:29Dave Ramsey:but as in general if you just said i'm gonna collect cars uh that no that wouldn't you wouldn't keep up with it but if you just really are into corvettes and you've got five different times for corvettes or whatever you you probably are going to make some good money on that so that's probably your case you're probably kind of into a couple of these things stamps is another one um that kind of thing that are baseball cards even i know one guy's got you know two hundred thousand dollars and baseball cards, but he's way into it, you know? And so he's probably actually making decent money on it. I would never use that as a substitute for retirement, though.

1:27:08Are you there?

1:27:09George Kamel:Okay. What kind of collectibles do you have? For the most part, a lot of card collectibles, vintage board games, vintage antique books, stuff like that.

1:27:20Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Yeah. Well, as you know, I don't know anything about the board game part, but the book side, a wide spectrum of completely useless all the way to extremely valuable. Yep. And it's like there's a lot of stuff in between. And what kind of cards, Pokemon or baseball or what?

1:27:44George Kamel:I have a lot of Magic the Gathering alpha cards, like Black Lotus. Yeah. different vintage ones like that from the original printings that I collect. Are there ones you could part with and have no sentimental value to you? There you go. I could sell this and make 20 grand and be fine. I could probably sell it all and be fine. I just don't want my wife or my kids, if I kick the bucket, to send it to Goodwill.

1:28:11Dave Ramsey:That's a good point. That's some estate planning and some good instruction. My wife actually brought that up the other day. She said, okay, what am I going to do? We've got all this detailed estate plan, but she's like made me write out a thing about a year and a half ago. Like, okay, I am not going to deal with your guns. You have way too many of them, and I have nothing to do with this. I mean, the boys will want four or five each, and after that, what am I going to do with them? I'm like, okay, I need to give you a plan for that. And so write it out. And I've got a detail just because I'm into it.

1:28:46Dave Ramsey:You know, it's a copy, and so it's all written out. And so that's all you need to do there is write it all out so they don't send it to Goodwill and that we don't, you know, give away something that's worth$20 ,000 or use it as a bookmark or something in one of those vintage books. And so, yeah, that kind of stuff.

1:29:01George Kamel:I'm sure they'd much rather have an inheritance in the, you know, inherited IRA. That's going to be a lot simpler for them to handle. So I would sell it if it doesn't mean much to you and it was a fun hobby. I would sell it and park that in your retirement account or an IRA and start on that because you're 42. Two, I mean, you got 20 years at least of a working career to build some wealth, and it sounds like you can do that with your income and a paid-for house. You're in a good spot.

1:29:26Dave Ramsey:So, yeah, let's build wealth and have a retirement plan. And if we want to have a hobby also, that's okay. Because I have these collectible hobbies, but they have nothing to do with my real network.

1:29:38George Kamel:You're not doing it for an ROI.

1:29:40Dave Ramsey:I am not doing it for an ROI. You just enjoy it. I'm doing it because I – yeah, that's it. It's Dave's vice. It's a hobby. It's a hobby. It's the healthiest form of addiction you can have. No, it's just a hobby. That's it. There's nothing wrong with that. Anna is in New York City. Hi, Anna. How are you?

1:29:56George Kamel:I am good. How are you?

1:29:58Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

1:30:00George Kamel:Okay, so I have a question. My husband and I are retired. We don't have any debt. We have a daughter, an only child, and we'd like to buy her an apartment. we'd like to do that now while we're still alive rather than let her get everything. How much net worth do you guys have?

1:30:22Dave Ramsey:What's the size of your nest egg?

1:30:25George Kamel:Probably, I'd say about$2 million with our house. Our house is paid off, so some of that would be, you know, not cash, but in cash about$1.7 million.

1:30:40Dave Ramsey:Okay, good for you. Well done. Well done. And how much will this apartment cost?

1:30:47George Kamel:Somewhere between maybe around$250 ,000 or$300 ,000, somewhere around there.

1:30:51Dave Ramsey:All right. I would do that.

1:30:54George Kamel:We can do that.

1:30:55Dave Ramsey:You're going to pay cash for the apartment. There's no debt, right?

1:30:58George Kamel:Nope. We don't want to. Yeah, that's another question, though. Would there be any advantage to getting up?

1:31:04Dave Ramsey:No, we don't want debt. That's a disadvantage. Because then you're not giving her a blessing. You're giving her a curse.

1:31:11George Kamel:Right. Yeah, yeah, no, we don't want to do that.

1:31:15Dave Ramsey:Right. Now, what I would do, I had a friend of mine that did something like this, and he said he asked her to sign a one-page letter promising to never borrow money.

1:31:26George Kamel:Right.

1:31:27Dave Ramsey:So that she doesn't go get a boyfriend and refinance this to buy him a pizza store.

1:31:32George Kamel:Oh, no.

1:31:33Dave Ramsey:Oh, yeah. That happens every day, right?

1:31:37George Kamel:I never thought of that but I did think that maybe borrowing money just because maybe she mismanaged her all

1:31:45Dave Ramsey:that would work too you have to promise us it's not a legal contract, it's just a moral contract you have to raise your right hand sign a letter stating I will never borrow money again mom and I'm going to use the fact that I have a free apartment to create wealth since I don't have a house payment

1:32:03George Kamel:and how can we help her do that also because she lives at home right now. She had lost her job. She came and she lived back home. She now has a good job. What's a good job? Well, she's been living here several months. It pays a decent wage. What's a decent wage?

1:32:22Dave Ramsey:How much does she make?

1:32:24George Kamel:About $73 ,000 a year.

1:32:26Dave Ramsey:Can she live in the city making$73 ,000?

1:32:30George Kamel:You can in Brooklyn.

1:32:32Dave Ramsey:Oh, okay. Okay.

1:32:33George Kamel:Yeah.

1:32:34Dave Ramsey:How about that?

1:32:35George Kamel:Yeah, just make sure she can afford the ongoing, you know, insurance, taxes, all of that plays a part.

1:32:41Dave Ramsey:Maintenance. But, I mean, help her get on an every-dollar budget, and, you know, we'll send her a copy of the totem. I'll send her a copy of George's book on how to avoid all the traps and get with the every-dollar budget, and we'll help you guys get this started and then let her get back out there on her own two feet. But, yeah, I want her to promise that she's not going to make a mess out of this blessing. That's all I want. I bet the HOA over there is as much as a mortgage payment in the city. Could be.

1:33:34George Kamel:Hey guys, I've got big news. The Ramsey Show is going on tour and this is your chance to be more than just a listener. You get to be part of the show. So hear questions, ask live, and experience the kind of momentum that only comes from being in the room. We'll be in Charlotte, Denver, Phoenix, and Anaheim with a limited number of seats in each city. So last fall, we completely sold out in 72 hours. So do not wait. Get your tickets at ramsaysolutions.com slash events or by clicking the link in the show notes.

1:34:22Dave Ramsey:You ever wanted to see the person who's calling in and watch them ask the question or be in the room when we answer it? Well, now's your chance. The Ramsey Show is going back on tour, live recordings with live studio audiences, and you can be in the audience and watch the Q &A happen because all the questions will come from the microphone on the floor. Experience live Q &A, raw confessions, crowd debates, local debt-free screams. The team will be in Charlotte, Denver, Phoenix, and Anaheim in April. We're limiting this for production reasons to only about 300 seats a night. Last year we sold this out and we put it out there in 72 hours.

1:35:03Dave Ramsey:It's just been out there a couple days. It's almost gone. If you want to come, grab your tickets at RamseySolutions.com slash events or click the link in the show notes if you're listening on the podcast or on YouTube. Rhonda is with us in Virginia Beach. Hi, Rhonda. How are you?

1:35:20George Kamel:Hello. How are you?

1:35:21Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

1:35:23George Kamel:I recently just found out my husband is in-depth. Separate accounts, my name is not on it. The main thing I wanted to know is judges are normally favorable on the other spouse's side if his death was created secretly and in his own account. And I'm not in-depth on my side. So I was just wondering, have you heard any stories of judges making the other spouse help pay the debt that another spouse has created secretly?

1:35:59Dave Ramsey:Well, yeah, we've heard all the stories. I mean, for sure. There's a lot of this goes on, sadly. Okay, so how long have you been married?

1:36:07George Kamel:A long time. Well over 15.

1:36:11Dave Ramsey:Okay.

1:36:11George Kamel:We've always had separate accounts. We do have one.

1:36:16Dave Ramsey:Why did he deceive you and hide it from you?

1:36:21George Kamel:Because it's online gambling. And it's his own account, and I had to ask about it. Because he has a gambling problem.

1:36:30Dave Ramsey:Okay. And so how much has his gambling problem caused? How much debt has it cost? $40 ,000. And what does he make?

1:36:42George Kamel:Quite a bit. About$90 ,000.

1:36:45Dave Ramsey:Yeah, and what do you make?

1:36:47George Kamel:Right now, 42. Okay.

1:36:51Dave Ramsey:All right. Well, I mean, at the core of this is not really the money issue. At the core of this is two things. One is you're married to a person who has an addictive problem. Right. He's got a gambling problem. Okay. By definition, he is following all of the behaviors of an addict, the actual definition. Okay. one of those being that he's deceived. Two is, is that he's out of control. Okay. Okay. And so when you have to lie to your spouse and you're out of control, bottom line, we're going to define you as an addict. Anybody in our world does that. Okay. So number one problem is you are married to a person who has an addiction.

1:37:37Dave Ramsey:Number two problem, is that he has, as a part of that addiction, has lied to you and broken your trust and your heart with it. Right. Okay. So the only way that this goes forward in a positive way, the only way you have a wonderful marriage at 20 years, you're at 15 now, is that he addresses the addiction openly with you, gets help, stops gambling, gets a therapist, goes to Gamblers Anonymous. You've got to sit down with your pastor, and he's held accountable to never gamble again the rest of his life. Right. And then when he does that, over time, the first 10 minutes he did that, he's been dry for one day, two days, one week.

1:38:29Dave Ramsey:Well, he's not trustworthy yet. but when he's been dry for a year, you can start to trust him, and that would be logical. And he can't do anything that looks like a violation of trust ever again the rest of his life because he has deceived his wife at a very deep level. And you're pretty pissed and pretty hurt about that unless you're weird. Right?

1:38:57George Kamel:No, I'm not happy about that at all. To the point that I'm about to look into divorce, I was just worried about the judge making me—

1:39:05Dave Ramsey:The judge will not make you pay this. The judge will not make you pay this. Very unusual. I mean, I'm not a judge and I'm not a lawyer, but very unusual. And the deception has nothing to do with it. It's just simply, hey, Your Honor, the reason I'm divorcing him is he's a gambling addict and he ran up a bunch of debt gambling that I didn't even know about. And the judge is going to go, oh, he gets to pay that. I mean, that's going to wait—99 % of the time, that's the way that's going to go down. So if you divorce him, that's where you'll end up. But his path to staying married is complete transparency from this point forward, no hiding anything ever again, getting help, which involves admitting that I have a problem, and getting in a 12-step program like GA, Gamblers Anonymous, and getting a one-on-one therapy to never do this again.

1:39:53Dave Ramsey:And this is gambling addiction and lying to my wife as a part of it. so he has to act like that you discovered cocaine in his bedroom.

1:40:04George Kamel:Oh, trust me, yes. That's exactly where I felt. I felt with other, not addiction myself, but I've lived with people with addiction, and that's exactly what I thought as. I'm like, oh, it's just like a drug addict. You know, one thing playing around with it here and there, but yes, definitely.

1:40:22Dave Ramsey:What caused him to tell you now he didn't and she found it?

1:40:27George Kamel:oh no i had to i asked oh you asked he told he told you when you asked he he finally he came out it he came out just asked how how is your credit going because of keeping things separate i don't get to see that you don't get to see mine um too much but just every once in a while checking in hey how's things going how are your credit how you know how are you doing on your savings and come to find out you depleted But the savings and... On top of going to 40-K debt.

1:40:58Dave Ramsey:Yeah. So if healing occurs and we stay married, there'll be a period of time which he handles no money and you handle all of it, his and yours. And then over time, you'll start to handle it together. Never again will you act like roommates. Right. Because the fact that you're running this separate, it added to this, it made it worse. The lack of unity caused a lack of transparency. Yeah. But if you're both looking at all our money is in a pile and all our bills are in a pile and we are both looking at all of them, then it's much harder for something like this to occur.

1:41:35George Kamel:Yeah, definitely. Even being separate, I still look at it as a major setback.

1:41:39Dave Ramsey:No excuse, Rhonda. It's not the same. Right. When it's all in one pile, everybody sees everything. It's almost impossible for this crap to happen.

1:41:50George Kamel:I'm kind of scared now. And that was my whole thing with me having the savings and paid off my car. And now it makes me think that.

1:41:59Dave Ramsey:Well, the only reason you would allow it to be in one pile is if you're in control and or over time he becomes worthy of trust again. Because the last time he gambled was five years ago and he's dry. And we've had these healthy, good marital discussions about our budget every month. and we both know where every dime of our money is going. And if you did that for five years, you could start to not be scared.

1:42:28Wow.

1:42:30Dave Ramsey:And that's a healthy place to aim at if you guys are going to stay together. That's how you should do it. And I hope that's what works out. I hope it works out that way. But this is how people come back from the deception around people hiding debt and or come back from being married to an addict. is you rebuild trust. Dr. Henry Cloud was with us here this morning. I had lunch with him today, and he has a book out called Trust, and it's how to lose it and how to rebuild it. And these are the types of things, but lots of transparency, lots of extra layers of communication, over-communicating. Never assume the other person knows something.

1:43:08Dave Ramsey:You should have known. No, that's not that. That's bull. Everybody knows everything because it was said out loud. and the more of that you have, the more trust is built in any relationship. Employer, employee, husband, wife, parent, child, all of this works. From the pulpit in your church, transparency, extra levels of communication, reality is dealt with.

1:44:11Dave Ramsey:Hey, guys. Dave Ramsey here. Every day on this show, we help people work through real money problems and figure out what to do next. Now, you can get that same kind of help anytime with Ask Ramsey. Ask your money question and get answers built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision or just want something explained, Ask Ramsey is here to help. It's fast, simple, and free to use. Go to RamseySolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's RamseySolutions.com.

1:45:03Dave Ramsey:Tim and Shannon are on the debt-free stage right here in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions. Hey, guys, how are you? Hey, Dave. We're good. Great. Welcome, welcome. Where do you guys live? Chicagoland suburb of Illinois. Love it. Very cool. And how much debt have you two paid off?

1:45:22George Kamel:We've paid off just over$103 ,000.

1:45:25Dave Ramsey:Very cool. How long did that take?

1:45:27George Kamel:About 57 months.

1:45:28Dave Ramsey:Good for you. And your range of income during that time?

1:45:31George Kamel:We fluctuated between$175 ,000 and about$200 ,000 ending.

1:45:35Dave Ramsey:Cool. What do y 'all do for a living? I am a police officer.

1:45:38George Kamel:And I work in HR.

1:45:39Dave Ramsey:Oh, very cool. Excellent. Good job for both of you. What kind of debt was the$103 ,000? It was the house.

1:45:45George Kamel:That was the house. You paid off your house?

1:45:47Dave Ramsey:You have a paid-for house? We do. We do. And you're a police officer and HR director, and you're not 150 years old. That's correct. How old are you two? I'll be celebrating my 40th in May. Love it.

1:45:59George Kamel:I'm 32. I love it.

1:46:00Dave Ramsey:And you have a paid-for stinking house. What's this house worth? Just over$300 ,000. Way to go, you two. Awesomeness. How much in your retirement nest eggs? So we were calculating that. We're$300 ,000,$400 ,000. All right. Cool. So you're heading towards Baby Step Millionaire. in just a year or two. Yes, sir. Way to go, y 'all. I'm so proud of you. Thank you. What caused you to be weird?

1:46:21George Kamel:So it started during COVID when I rolled out with some help, Smart Dollar to our police department and we took it village wide. I was the training manager at the time and Shannon and I binged that. Baby Step 2, we were here, joined you in May of 2021. But Baby Step 7, we've been working on that the last 57 months following the blueprint of Smart Dollar.

1:46:44Dave Ramsey:For those of you that don't know, Smart Dollar is our Financial Peace University for companies and for organizations. HR directors use it and people. We have several police departments and first responders using it around the nation to put all their employees through. Yes. U-Haul put all their employees through. Costco put all their employees through. Our Financial Peace University, in essence, it's a class. And so you led the class at your police department. Yes, I've been in charge of that since COVID. Well, thank you. Wow. That's cool. So you not only got to see yourself get out of that, you've got a lot of your guys that are out there and gals that are out there on the highways and byways putting their life at risk.

1:47:22Dave Ramsey:They're getting their lives cleaned up.

1:47:23George Kamel:Yeah, we saw a really strong benefit with it where we started with it just as the police department, and then we got the whole village on board. So now we have our wastewater employees have access to it, our admin clerks, everybody, the entire city now has adopted SmartDollar.

1:47:36Dave Ramsey:Wow, that's a movement over there. Look at you. You're the guy running the whole thing, man. Way to go. Well, that's so stinking cool. Yeah, and with the police department, I always love hearing you guys do it in particular because it's also like we've had it with the military for years. And one of the things in a high-stress environment like that is in the military world, they say combat readiness, being ready to go into combat with your head clear, ready to do one thing, is much better when all the – there's no debt stress at home. I'm not worried about my car being repoed. I'm not worried about my lights being cut off.

1:48:12Dave Ramsey:And police officers are the exact same thing.

1:48:14George Kamel:Yeah, the idea behind that is exactly that. I want the officers on a daily basis to be able to go out and serve the community but not have to worry about their finances or at least have a plan that the idea is service first to the community and not to be sitting in their squad cars worrying about the debt, worrying about how they're going to deal with the next overtime or whatever the case may be. Yeah, trying to book some side gig.

1:48:35Dave Ramsey:Exactly. Yeah, the whole thing. Wow. Wow. That's so cool. And so freedom. I see the blue striped shirt now. I'm getting to the blue flag. Okay. Yep. All right. What's it say on there? Debt-free family, baby step seven. You did. Custom-made t-shirts just for today.

1:48:49George Kamel:So did leading smart dollar, did that kind of put an onus on you guys to really get this house paid off faster? Like, was that part of the story? We hit the deadline ahead of time, but there wasn't without bumps along the way. Yeah, so we were actually here in May of 2021 and did our baby step two debt-free screen. and after that we tried to start a family and we're really struggling through that so during that period we actually sought infertility treatment and because we were able to complete baby step two we were able to cash flow all of the infertility treatment and we're able to welcome our baby girl back in March of last year and so I think that really that's more important than

1:49:38Dave Ramsey:Anything else in the whole story? Absolutely.

1:49:41George Kamel:So she's our why. And I think after having her really kind of put things into perspective for us to really just knock out the rest of the debt that we had and wanted to set her up for a future that we weren't really familiar with ourselves growing up.

1:49:57Dave Ramsey:I love it.

1:49:58George Kamel:Yeah.

1:49:58Dave Ramsey:Change your family tree. And while you're at it, be an example to all your compadres.

1:50:02George Kamel:It was, and I saw that there was such a void in the financial wellness aspect along this journey that I went ahead and took part in your financial coaching and have since started coaching first responders across the country in workshops and one-on-one to where a lot of employers yet have not really adopted a true financial wellness program, and this is giving them some sort of hope.

1:50:24Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Well, thank you, thank you, thank you. It's incredible. All right. Now that you've done all of that, I mean, you not only got out of debt, you also cash flowed fertility. And then on top of that, we paid off the house. And now you're coach helping other people and you've led the whole village, not just the police department through smart dollar, the whole thing. Now, what do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is?

1:50:45George Kamel:Sticking to the budget is the biggest thing. Hands down.

1:50:49Dave Ramsey:Easier said than done, isn't it?

1:50:51George Kamel:Absolutely. It is, and especially in our world of first responders, we thrive control. That's what we have to have. So it amazes me when I hear a first responder that doesn't take control of their money with a budget. And a lot of times that's where we start in these trainings. If you can just start telling your money where to go, you're going to want to put it in a lot of different places once you start seeing where it's going. So the budget is the most crucial part.

1:51:12Dave Ramsey:Yeah, being proactive with it. You know, it's interesting. I hadn't thought about it. So much of your training is about controlling all the variables from a safety perspective so that no one gets hurt. And policies and procedures and law.

1:51:22George Kamel:Everything guides our – you start your squad car, you start the fire truck. Everything is a policy procedure and everything.

1:51:27Dave Ramsey:A checklist, yeah.

1:51:27George Kamel:Just put a policy and procedure in place for your money.

1:51:30Dave Ramsey:Wow. Just apply what you're used every day. Yep. You know, that's very interesting. Wow, very cool.

1:51:36George Kamel:Have you been seeing stories from the people in your village that are following the plan, also becoming debt-free? Because it's weird to talk about money with your coworkers. It is. And they're just out there with you. That is the difficulty in trying to get a chief of police or a fire chief to even say, hey, you know what, come on in and talk about this. Because for so long it is that taboo topic. But it's the quiet conversations afterwards. It's after you meet in a workshop, then that person sticks around in the back of the class and then comes up and says, Tim, can I ask you a couple of questions?

1:52:03George Kamel:And we're still working on it, but the fact that we're all trying is what really helps because these first responders need that.

1:52:09Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Well, thank you for being such a service to your village. And I'm so proud of y 'all. Thank you. I mean, you're not even stinking 40 years old. You're almost a millionaire. He's got babies coming. Everything's happening. What better life can we have?

1:52:20George Kamel:This is the life we always dreamed of, and it wouldn't be possible without following the baby steps.

1:52:25Dave Ramsey:I'm just so proud of you. Thanks for embracing Smart Dollar, and I'm thrilled it worked. I know it worked. It worked. I'm never surprised that it worked, but I'm always thrilled that it worked.

1:52:35George Kamel:It's hard, but it works, and it's worth it.

1:52:38Dave Ramsey:It is hard. It's just easier than being broke and stressed. Amen. And freaking out for 25 years. Instead, I got these 20 months of really having to lean in on this. And now you got your stinking house paid off, man. How does that feel? It's unreal.

1:52:55George Kamel:Yeah. December was our last payment, which, again, was ahead of schedule. So we've had a couple of months here. And even standing here and getting to meet with the Smart Dollar team and spend some time, it's just you're still taking that deep breath. Because, like you said, before four years old, it was. It's not real yet. No.

1:53:09Dave Ramsey:Still surreal.

1:53:10George Kamel:We have so many options and choices we get to make now. then what's the big thing you're going to do to celebrate this is the year this is the year of traveling oh where are we going what's the big trip this was a big one this was this was a big one um we're spending my 40th in florida so we're taking the whole family down there all right so we've got a couple other things but at the end of the day that's where we remind ourselves money was never the goal money is the tool to get to the goal gotcha all right are we gonna put uh

1:53:34Dave Ramsey:baby into the debt-free scream we'd like to all right fun and name and age this is keely

1:53:39George Kamel:and she will be one next week.

1:53:42Dave Ramsey:I love it. So proud of y 'all. Tim and Shannon and Keely from the Chicago, Illinois area took their whole village through, all the first responders, all the police department, and then everybody else paid off their own home. Debt-free house and everything. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one.

1:54:01George Kamel:We're debt-free! Yay!

1:54:06George Kamel:Woo-hoo-hoo-hoo!

1:54:10Dave Ramsey:That is one cute baby. Talk about paying it forward, baby. That's worth getting out of debt right there. A lot of paying it forward there.

1:54:16George Kamel:That's a triple hero.

1:54:52George Kamel:When people hear my story of paying off debt, they say things like, dang, that must have been so hard. I could never do that. And I tell them, sure you can. It's a short-term sacrifice for a long-term gain. But do you know what's really hard? Working your whole life and never having anything to show for it. never having the long-term gain, just feeling broke and stressed and maxed all the time. And sadly, that's the hard that most people choose. Listen, you're capable of transforming your situation and living a life of freedom, but you need the right tools to do it, like our EveryDollar Budget app.

1:55:26George Kamel:In minutes, it'll build you a step-by-step plan that's tailored to your money situation. And every day, it finds ways you can free up extra money in your budget so you can get rid of your debt and actually build wealth. So make the choice today. Short-term sacrifice, long-term gain. Choose the tool to help you get it done fast. Download the EveryDollar app and start for free today.

1:55:58Dave Ramsey:Our scripture of the day, Ecclesiastes 5.5. It is better that you should not vow than that you should vow and not pay. John Adams said there are two ways to conquer and enslave a country. One is by the sword. The other is by debt. Sally is in Philadelphia. Hi, Sally. How are you?

1:56:20George Kamel:Hi, Dave. I'm doing great. Thank you. I first wanted to thank you so much. With your guidance and the grace of God, I was able to pay off all my personal debt many years ago. Wow. And now, yeah, and now my question is, how do I view business debt? Because I was able to get out of my personal debt, and my brother is in a farming industry, so he was not able to have a lot of money. So he and I decided about five years ago to buy a farm together. The farm is such that it's an orchard so that it at least takes five to seven years before return can occur. So for these last five years, I've been basically bankrolling it myself with my cash and getting a mortgage through farm credit.

1:57:13George Kamel:And we did get a line of credit. And now that line of credit is due, and either I can choose to get a full loan for that, or I can get a pledge line from my quote-unquote fund money that I was able to also save on the side, which is different than my retirement.

1:57:40Dave Ramsey:Okay, so you have personal investments equal to what?

1:57:47George Kamel:does that include the mortgage on the farm?

1:57:49Dave Ramsey:No, personal investments. You said fund money and retirement. Yes. So you have a retirement account, and then you have non-retirement investments that are how much?

1:58:00George Kamel:Yes, my non-retirement investments are about$440 ,000. And what is your line of credit? My line of credit is only$120 ,000.

1:58:09Dave Ramsey:Pay it off today. Okay.

1:58:13George Kamel:And the question, sir, is do I pay it off by selling all my investments and keeping the capital gains? Yes. Or use the, okay, French line of credit.

1:58:22Dave Ramsey:Yeah, I'm not borrowing money. Okay. We stopped borrowing money until we got to Apple Orchard, and then we started again.

1:58:31George Kamel:Yes.

1:58:32Dave Ramsey:Stop it.

1:58:33George Kamel:So what's the other mortgage on the Apple Orchard? Three, I think it's like$360 ,000. But the thing is, the Apple Orchard. And it hasn't made a profit yet. No, sir, because it takes five to seven years. Yeah, how long have you been screwing with this thing? Five years.

1:58:49Dave Ramsey:So it should be starting now?

1:58:52George Kamel:Yes, sir. Next year is hopefully when we're going to start having money coming in to be able to pay off all this debt and not incur any more debt at all.

1:59:00Dave Ramsey:And please tell me the projections are ridiculously good next year after you put five years of alligator in this. Yes, sir.

1:59:08George Kamel:It's actually great. It's quite great.

1:59:10Dave Ramsey:So like how much do you think you're going to make profit next year?

1:59:14George Kamel:Well, after the following year, it's going to be another$550 ,000 coming in. Out of that, it's going to be about$120 ,000 in cost.

1:59:24Dave Ramsey:Okay, so you can pay off the mortgage out of the profits next year.

1:59:28George Kamel:Yes, sir. That's the goal is to get out of debt as quickly as possible once the money comes in.

1:59:33Dave Ramsey:You don't need the money off of the orchard. You did this, both of you did it as a side gig, and you have funded it. I assume with your brother you have clear documentation that you're getting all the money you put into it back before he starts putting money in his pocket.

1:59:47George Kamel:Well, yeah, actually we're in a 50-50 because he's doing all the work on the vineyard, right? I mean on the orchard. He's the one that's doing all the on-the-ground work.

1:59:56Dave Ramsey:So the only way the debt gets paid is 50-50? Your 50 % pays off the debt?

2:00:03George Kamel:No, no. We first pay off the debt, but then after that everything's 50-50.

2:00:07Dave Ramsey:Oh, okay. So he doesn't get any money until the debt is paid.

2:00:14George Kamel:That's a great question. The way that I view it is that he's putting in the money now by working on it. So it would be the way that I view it. So the mortgage payments you've made are equal to his labor, essentially? Oh, yeah. Okay, see, this is what I'm worried about.

2:00:27Dave Ramsey:You guys don't have a clear plan for when this thing does start becoming profitable, how quickly you are made whole.

2:00:36George Kamel:and i'm okay with that because i'm thinking of this as a long-term investment well yeah you're already five years in and made nothing yes sir yeah yes sir so yeah you but you guys really

2:00:47Dave Ramsey:need to think about and have it detailed out exactly how you clear up this debt and then then but you know we don't just start raking chips off the table here while there's still problems I mean, you have a$360 ,000 problem, and you're getting ready to pay off this line of credit, and you need to recoup that. The debt now is owed to you. Yes, sir. That has to be paid back to you because you just used your personal money to do that. Otherwise, we're starting to value his labor at about$300 ,000 a minute if we're not careful.

2:01:21George Kamel:Yeah, and that's basically what a consultant would be charging in this situation. $300 ,000 a minute? No, no, not a minute, sir. No, not a minute. I was like, wow, I'm in the wrong business.

2:01:38Dave Ramsey:Yeah, so my point is that you guys have to have a real forced ranking of what happens to the cash when it starts coming in. first we recoup the you put the money back in your pocket for this line of credit that you pay off today do you ever recoup the money you put in earlier and then we pay off the 360 before he starts making a hundred thousand dollars a year and out of apples we need to get all that cleared up and then we can split 50 50 after that and if your 50 is due to the money you put in earlier that's okay if you don't recoup that that's okay that's your investment and your return is on the cash flow after that.

2:02:18Dave Ramsey:That's all fine. But the way people end up getting sideways in these things is they don't have real good, clear, detailed explanations that they're both aligned to on where the cash goes as it goes down the list of priorities. And you're very generous and open-handed with this, and he works hard, so I want him to get some out of it. That's fine. just build that generosity or that open-handedness into the clarity and into the decision that you guys make interesting lisa is in auburn alabama hi lisa how are you hi i'm doing well how are you

2:02:58George Kamel:better than i deserve what's up okay so um i'm a single parent and i have a six-year-old boy and i'm in uh step two of the baby step and i'm just wondering i'm worried that it's going to take me about 10 years to pay off my debt. And I'm wondering if I should go ahead and basically buy some play gym equipment for our backyard. So he has something to do. He's an only child and he just gets too much screen time right now, but I know that will delay me paying off my debt.

2:03:29Dave Ramsey:How much debt do you have, honey?

2:03:32George Kamel:110.

2:03:33Dave Ramsey:On what?

2:03:34George Kamel:Other than my mortgage. It's 75K student loans and then 9 ,000 and a personal loan and the rest is credit card, Alabama taxes, and medical. Yeah.

2:03:45Dave Ramsey:What do you do for a living?

2:03:47George Kamel:I'm actually a tax accountant.

2:03:49Dave Ramsey:Okay. So what do you make?

2:03:52George Kamel:Right now,$86 ,000.

2:03:53Dave Ramsey:Why would it take you 10 years to pay this off?

2:03:58George Kamel:Well, I guess with my minimum payments, I just wasn't sure if I could pay off more than$10 ,000 a year unless my income goes drastically up.

2:04:07Dave Ramsey:Yeah, you're going to have to get your income up down and scorched earth you're not doing a detailed sacrificial budget or you'd have more room than you've got

2:04:19George Kamel:Okay. I do have every dollar. It's just my debt payments right now are about 40 % of my take-home pay. Okay.

2:04:29Dave Ramsey:And what are you talking about spending on playground equipment?

2:04:35George Kamel:Really just getting a fence for a backyard and getting just a swing set or just something back there so that he can actually enjoy our backyard. How old is he? He's six. I'll tell you what we just did, Lisa My wife on our Facebook Marketplace and in these Facebook groups, they are giving this stuff away just hoping someone will pick it up You don't need to go buy him a new play set for$1 ,000 to make him happy Just go get something real cheap off Facebook and he'll be happy with a cardboard box

2:05:08Dave Ramsey:We're not getting him a cardboard box We're going to get him a nice thing off of Facebook Marketplace for just a few pennies here or there Literally, people want it out of their backyard And you might not need a fence if he's six and knows to stay in the backyard. I don't know. Right. I guess I'm old school, but I'm just like, don't leave the yard. There's an idea. Dave had an electric fence growing up. He knew not to go past it. Didn't have a, yeah. That puts us out of the Ramsey Show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.

2:06:13George Kamel:We'll be right back. What's a pre-prenup? I don't know. I thought that'd be something. The Ramsey Show Live is your chance to be in the room with other people that are on the same journey as you. There's always something you can do to better your situation. We don't sell magic wands. And so that person in the mirror, they are really the secret sauce. They are the solution. I'm really, really proud of you. Thank you. That's awesome. That's pretty fun. You guys are great. The Ramsey Show Live, one night only, coming to a city near you. you