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26:37And so I started listing and I started working with another company, but that company just didn't pay that much. Gotcha. Okay. So Trina, I have a new goal for you. I think instead of retiring at 40, we are going to learn to live debt free. which i usually do but this is like trina so far it's been everyone else's fault and the government took your clients away no no i'm not saying she's pushing on everyone's fault but like no trina you kind of be able to say like i i yes i i'm used to living with debt though from student loans to where you are now there's a pattern of you using debt can we say yes to that oh that makes sense yeah i wasn't looking at it sorry no you're great no i just want to make sure We're tracking.

27:26So I think in order to have a completely new mindset with money from where you've been of saying I'm living completely debt free, that's not an option. Debt is not an option. I'm going to save up and pay for things. I'm not going to be making unwise decisions about purchases and pulling money out of retirement or kids college or investments because that's not wise, right? Where that stuff is all for the future. And I'm going to learn to live within my income and my means. and that means making hard decisions about lifestyle and about, you know, yeah, I mean, life choices and everything. And so, I mean, genuinely, I would make that the goal.

28:02I would make it a aggressive goal to get out of debt in, I don't know what, two years? Like make a, make a goal to, aggressive goal to get out of debt to save up a fully funded emergency fund. And freeze your credit. That way it stops you. Yeah, I have a two and a half year debt free plan. Two and a half years is your plan? Okay, that's so great. We never even got to your question, Trina. I'm sorry. There's so much details to jump into. What is your actual question we can help you with? Well, I wanted to basically flip this piece of property. They have a piece of land that's for sale. It hasn't been intact yet.

28:37I wanted to do like a creative finance to see if I can - No, we're off the path. Remember 10 seconds ago? We're the new goal. What we talked about? The new goal. Remember? Creative financing just means, hey, I'm going to be stupid with steroids. That's fair. Okay, that was her original question. That's fair. We made a new goal 10 seconds ago. Yeah, okay. So how would you answer this now? Trina, answer your own question with your new goals in mind. So I am going to stick to my two and a half year budget that literally just looks like this month. Yes. And that's what we're talking about, Trina. See?

29:10Be debt-free after that and then maybe save the money instead of. Yes. Look at you. And how old are you, Trina? I'm 38. 38. Okay. Can I tell you, if you don't retire by 40, you're not a failure? I promise. Can I just promise you that? If you don't retire by 60, you're not a failure. How about this? You're not a failure, period. Oh. There you go. That's the most encouraging thing I've said today. Rachel can attest to that. But the truth is, we have these aggressive goals, and we need to create actions to get there and we can't hold ourselves to these goals because life is going to happen. And so it's okay to pivot the dream.

29:55But one thing we can't do is pivot and going backwards and rob our future, rob our children's future. You are worth more than that. And so from today forward, you're a person who doesn't go into debt, who doesn't owe people money. And all your decisions can be based off of that value system because that brings you freedom, Trina. There's no shortcut. There's no like, okay, I can do this creative financing here and do this. and I'll make 20 grand just like that. And look at that. Like that doesn't work. That's not the real world. It is hard work. It is the long game. It is a marathon. It's not a sprint.

30:29And it's just a different mindset you have to be in to get true financial freedom and true control over your money. And so you do have to shift the way you've been doing it. If you keep doing what you've been doing, you're going to keep getting what you've been getting. And so, yeah, I'm glad that Trina answered her own question. We got there. We're not going to finance a piece of land to build a home to flip it. We are going to work on getting out of debt. De-risk your life. Debt equals risk. More debt equals more risk. And so this creative financing is just adding more risk to the puzzle. And so be free.

31:00That's your best path to an early retirement. You're awesome, Trina. Thanks for calling.

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32:54If you're working the baby steps, the best and fastest way to do it is by using EveryDollar. It's more than just our budgeting app. Now the plan is built right in. You can track your progress, plus get personalized recommendations and coaching for your situation that will help you free up more money and work the plan even faster. It's like having one of us walking with you every day, 24-7, showing you the next right step and holding you accountable. So start every dollar for free. You can download it in the App Store or Google Play. Miriam is in New York City up next. Miriam, how can we help? Hi, it's a pleasure to speak to both of you.

33:30Thank you for taking my call. Sure. My question is about life insurance. We pushed off getting life insurance way too long, and I thought it was pretty straightforward. I wanted to call them their insurance, and my husband knew two people who kept bugging him that they wanted to sell them life insurance, so I said, okay, we need a 20-year term. And I think we got a little screwed by them because we ended up getting a policy, which they said was 20-year, but it's extendable 20-year. Oh. So after the 20 years, you can re-up at the current premiums for your age, which is going to be two to five times higher probably?

34:09Something like that, but I think when we got the package, which was after, you know, we have 30 days to cancel or whatever, but it's past the 30 days. Either way, I'm going to replace it, but it goes up even before the 20 years, I think. Like, there's a whole chart. It's hard to understand. Yeah. I'm not really sure. Who'd you get it through? What company?

34:28Northwestern. Oh, boy. Okay. You've said enough, Miriam. I would cancel yesterday. It's not a scam. And they're a company who does all kinds of financial products, but likely what happens, here's what I've seen. It's mostly young guys right out of college who want some sales experience, and they sell the scummiest life insurance products to unsuspecting victims like their family and friends. Right. That's what I've seen. That's accurate. So I'm not dogging about the company. Oh, no, Mary was like, yep, that's exactly what happened. But that's my brother. Same thing happened to my own brother, right?

34:58Some guy from college reaches out, hey, man, how you doing? And so I would get out of this and I would contact our friends at Xander because they're not going to sell you extendable term life insurance. Term life insurance by definition. I did already reach out to Xander. Okay. So I just wanted to know, like, based on my recommendation, should I take 20 years? Should I take 30 years? They said that Dave recommends a child rider, which I never heard on the show. Hold on, hold on. Northwestern said Dave recommends a child rider? No, no, no, no. Xander. For what reason? I don't know. I have four kids.

35:32I never heard it from him. That's why I called because I want that under his hand. And then somebody else, I'm getting very overwhelmed, but somebody else told me that we should really do a disability rider. I don't. No, there's a lot of riders. And when you hear the word rider, just think gimmick. And so all you need is term life insurance. 20 years should be enough. And here's how to think about it. In 20 years time, you should be self-insured. If you follow the Ramsey plan, you become debt free, stay debt free. You have the emergency fund. You invest in retirement for 20 years. You pay the house off in 15 years if you follow our parameters of a 15-year mortgage.

36:05And all of a sudden, you don't need the life insurance anymore once the term expires. So that's the goal. And if you need 25 years to get there, then you get 25. Well, and that's what I'm asking. We're in baby step 3B. We live in New York, so that's taking a while. I have four kids, one on the way, and I'm not done. My husband and I are both from very large families. So I'm thinking my kids are not going to be out of the house in 20 years. Should I go longer? Should I look for something in between to add? Yeah, I mean, you could see how much it is because are you guys in good health, would you say?

36:40Yes. Okay, because that's the great thing about term life is it is so inexpensive. And then when it comes up for time for renewal, you can always, you know, go back through and recheck things and make different decisions, right? You can always get additional policies, you know, in a few years. Now it's going to be more expensive as you age. So your best bet likely, and they can help you run the math, is going, hey, let's do a 25-year because it's going to end up being cheaper than doing a 20 now and a 5 later. And so I would confer with them, get the math on it, and always stick to term no matter what.

37:10Just term, and if it's 15, 20, 25, that's fine, and always get 10 to 12 times your annual income or your husband's annual income. And both of you should have your own individual policies. Yeah. And you're saying not 30, 25. I shouldn't go more than that. 30 feels aggressive. If the kids are still in the house at that point, that's on them and you guys will be multimillionaires by then. Yeah, I was going to say, because I mean, yes. You'll be self-insured. In 25 years, yes, Miriam. If you guys are investing 15 % of your income, if you guys are working to pay everything off, I'm like, it's just that continues to build.

37:43That's where you build wealth. And in 25 years, what that's going to end up being is a lot of money. And so for the kids that are in the home, maybe it's one or two of them. They're going to have plenty of money. The others should be out living their own lives and not needing your financial support. I mean, you'll have a village at that point to take care of each other. So I'm less worried 25 years from now about what life looks like if you follow the plan. Exactly. Okay. Can I ask one more quick question? Sure. About when your income goes up, you're sort of 10 to 12 times your income. So then do you buy another plan in term for the difference?

38:16You can get a small policy for the difference. I wouldn't cancel the one you currently have and get a new one. So you can always add a small. And how often would you look at that? Like in a year, if it goes up? Every few years. It's a parameter. So if you get a$5 ,000 raise, you don't need to go out and get an extra policy. Right. But if you get a substantial raise and your lifestyle's changing, your expenses have changed dramatically, that's when you go, all right, we need to relook at this. Yeah, it's about every four to five years I would relook. And the kid's situation, too, changes it, I mean, for me.

38:44Exactly. So, yeah, but I'd say, yeah, every four to five years. I'm trying to think of Winston and I because we just re-upped our life insurance maybe like two years ago or something. Because we still get it. I don't know. I like having it, you know, even if we're debt free. And every day there's a part of me that I'm like, we're young and healthy and it's cheap. And that's the great thing about term. For what it costs, I mean, it's a great policy to have. Yeah, we could have done it a long time ago. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So anything fancy around it, any words you don't understand, Miriam, usually is like a, that's a red flag to me.

39:16They're adding things on. If it's a young guy that's in the situation and it's all these weird terms again that they're selling you this package, probably not a great deal. Like the simpler, the better. Just a 20-year, 25-year term life. And they always want to prey on your emotions and the what-ifs and, well, a good parent would do this. You really want to take care of your kids. And kids don't need life insurance. Only you. I mean, all of it. It's meant to do one thing, which is replace income. That's it. Your two-year-old is not bringing money into the house here unless he's like a Gerber baby making banks.

39:48So you're asking really good questions, Miriam, and I love that you're taking care of your family in this way. Most people are going, what the heck are they talking about? I don't have any insurance. And so for everyone out there listening, you need term life insurance if anybody depends on you, a spouse or children. And it's very affordable, and you can call our friends at Xander and get this done today. 800-356-4282 or go to Xander.com. They'll take care of you. Rachel and I both have our policies through Xander for our families and it's well worth the money. And Xander's great because they go and shop.

40:19They're a broker. Yeah, all different companies versus, again, like a Northwestern, right, to pick on them a little bit. But it's like, okay, it's just one. Or Affleck. It's just one. You know what I mean? I guess their car. I don't know if they do life. They probably do it all these days. Yeah, probably. But yeah, it's not just the one company that you're getting the price from. What Xander does, they shop all the companies to get you the best price of what you're looking. And a lot of these now have no medical exams. Like if you're under a million dollar policy. You don't have to go get the medical exam.

40:44That's nice. So that's always nice. Convenience. Have someone come to the house and get pricked and get your blood done or go somewhere and get the blood work done. I love it. And it's a good idea to get healthy before you shop for life insurance. Cut the bad habits. Be thinking about your diet the night before your blood gets drawn. It's like cramming for a test. You're like, well, if I don't eat bad today. Fast and drink a lot of water. because like googling how fast will my blood work be good if i cut sweets i know yep that's a good reminder yeah and i think those are some of the saddest calls george of um you know um we'll get you know a widower widower or a widow calling that their spouse passed away and they have kids and they're trying to pick up the pieces you know whether they're trying to find a new job or starting to work because they were a stay-at-home parent or trying to figure out child care for the kids so they can go to work.

41:34I mean, it's just it. And if there is no life insurance, then they are, they have nothing, you know, they're just stuck with what it is. And so it is. And the sad part is a lot of people think they're covered because they're like, well, he has one through work. And I go, well, how much is that policy? They go, it's$50 ,000. I was like, well, great. We can get by for maybe six to 12 months. But what about after that? And so the goal here is if you make$50 ,000 and you get a$500 ,000 policy, you could invest that money and it would be able to spit off$50 ,000 with the average return on the market.

42:06And so that's the goal of getting 10 to 12 times your income is because the stock market historically has done about 10 to 12%. And so that's the reason for life insurance. That's the mechanics of it. And it doesn't take long. I know it feels like, well, I'm going to die sooner if I get life insurance. No, you're going to die regardless, maybe tomorrow, maybe in 50 years. But either way, you need to sleep better knowing that your family's protected. And our friends at Xander will hook you up.

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44:14Welcome back to The Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. I'm George Camel, joined by best-selling author Rachel Cruz. You can call us at 888-825-5225. That is the only way to get through and get your question answered. Joe is up next in Huntsville, Alabama. What's going on, Joe? Hi, guys. I just want to thank y 'all for taking my call. And before I get into it, I want to thank all of you for all the work that you do with Church of the Highlands in Alabama. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Good people over there. Yeah, thank y 'all. Well, I'm just calling because I came into a marriage with about 30 ,000 in student loans, and we now owe about 23 on it.

44:59We are not homeowners yet, but we have been blessed by just gifts and what we both brought into the marriage of saving, and we have about 122 ,000 in savings. That is good for y 'all. Thank you. So, but it was not mostly us. We eloped. And so we got a great gift for. Oh, nice. Nice. Yes. So I would love to be able to write a check and get those. That's the only debt we have. Like I said, not homeowners yet. We rent, but I would love to write a check and get that debt out of our life. But we're not quite on the same page. My husband's not comfortable with that yet because we're not homeowners. And it just feels like a scary thing to do to just send that much money off, not knowing what the future might bring, because I am a stay at home mom.

45:52So just, you know, want some advice. Okay, so his big hang-up is he wants to keep a ton of savings and not pay off anything because of something possibly happening to something where income's not coming in, and he would rather have$122 ,000 saved than$100 ,000 in no debt. When you put it like that, essentially. Okay. Okay, okay, yeah. Because that's, yeah, I mean, that's what it is when you break down. And he wants to be a homeowner first before he pays off the debt? I think he's mostly concerned about, like, having, once we pay off that debt, and then once we do, we're looking to buy a house, you know, in the next end of this year when our lease ends.

46:44So when we do end up putting that down payment on a home, where does that leave us? I think that's his concern. That you won't be able to afford the mortgage? Well, no. Where does that leave our emergency fund? And where does that leave if he was at his job? So are like three to six months of expenses. Yeah. So it's kind of, in my opinion, the dog's wagging. Wait, what is it? The tail wagging the dog? Tail wagging the dog. The dog is always going to be wagging the tail. Tail wagging the dog because he's going backwards. He's wanting to be a homeowner, which is one of the largest financial purchases you ever make.

47:17One of the most expensive things you ever do is to own a home. It's a good thing and it needs to be part of your financial plan. But he wants to do that big thing first before paying off debt and almost regardless of what's in the emergency fund. And that's what's scaring him. Right. So if you flipped it and said, OK, we need to get rid of the risk of the debt, then have the emergency fund. And then what's left is what we have for a down payment. So that means if we don't have enough by the end of the year, we may have to lease somewhere for six months and then we buy a home in the next summer versus at the end of this year when our lease is up, right?

47:54Essentially, I would say so. So I think because, say, we put$50 ,000 down on a home, we pay the$23 off in loans. That still leaves us pretty comfortable, I would say, with at least four to six months of expenses and savings. 100%. Yeah. Well, Ann, that's if you guys do nothing for a year, right? I mean, he's working. Right. And you guys are putting more money on savings, right? I mean, how much margin do you guys have a month? So we live pretty comfortably on what he makes now. Like I said, I'm a stay-at-home mom, so we're not saving as much as we'd like. We don't invest because we're just kind of unfamiliar with all of it.

48:34You know, we're so new to all of this. Sure. And like, well, we have a money market account that we save about$200 a month, and then we have a money market that brings in about$150 a month. What's your rent right now? So we're putting up about$350 a month right now,$1 ,250. Okay. So the question mark is how much house can we actually afford, and is this timeline even reasonable? Because I think what he's really saying is things are already tight and it's only going to get tighter if we pay off your debt. But really what it's doing is you're freeing up a payment and getting a better financial foundation.

49:03And if you can't buy a home when the lease is up, that's okay. This is a fake timeline we've made up that we have to be homeowners when the lease is up. And so you guys need to sit down and get some real numbers on this and not just, well, I think and I'm not sure what's going to happen. We need to go, here's what is true today. Here's what will be true 12 months from now. Okay. So my proposal is that we, and this is like, you know, understandable. My proposal, we pay about 320 on the loan a month right now. And we also tithe 10%. So my proposal, and that still puts us comfortable. So we're like, we're pretty frugal.

49:40So if we were to free up that 320, that would put us saving more like 600 a month. That would like pretty much double the amount we save. So his fear is that we wouldn't actually save it, you know, so, which is understandable, but it would just take good discipline. So his fear, yeah, is that you guys aren't disciplined enough to follow through on the loan. Yeah, I think it'd be good. Well, I believe we are. I think you guys are too. I think he's, he's using a lot of these, well, I'm scared. I'm feared. Well, you have fears too. Scarcity mentality. How did he grow up with money. What was his childhood like?

50:16Um, I mean, pretty just middle, like, you know, general middle class. Um, and I don't believe that his family of origin spoke about money very often, unless it was a tight season. Yes. Okay. Whereas, you know, this is the most money I've ever had in my entire life. Sure. Totally. I grew up, my mom was a single mom and so just different families of origin. For sure. Yeah. Do you guys sit down and do a budget every month together? We, we do. Um, I track every dollar we spend. Um, and that's like, and then we sit down and we close the month and I kind of, I keep the spreadsheet cause that's just kind of my thing.

50:58I'm good at that. And so we, but we sit down and look at it together and I say like, okay, this is where we spent 10 groceries and this is what we saved and that's amazing. I know where every dollar goes. Yeah, y 'all are y 'all are amazing. I mean, well done. Okay, so what I would what I might suggest is, I don't know, there's something about hitting goals together as a couple that is so unifying. And I'm trying to figure out and think through, you know, what could be something that you guys do together that's going to make you both a little uncomfortable, but it's at least getting you towards what you're both wanting.

51:29So I'm throwing this out here. I don't even know if this would work. I wonder if you guys sat down and just said, Hey, what if we paid off half the money right now. And we just, okay. And we wrote a check, 12 grand, and we just paid half of it off. Can we just see how we feel now? Because a lot of this is like the emotions are driving, his fear is driving a lot of this. I'm not to George's point to a fake timeline of buying a house that, you know, you're just moving a digital balance. And the truth is you owe people money. And so the balance isn't really 122, it's 99. And so if you did it this way, he also sounds like he's not familiar with the plan, I would go watch Financial Peace University with him and go, hey, this is what I'm after.

52:09That's the financial piece I'm after. And as long as we have debt, I don't want to move forward. I don't want to become a homeowner. Life is only going to get more expensive. Therefore, let's create more margin in our life. So I would pay it all off. You'll have 99 left, earmark 30 for an emergency fund. That's 70 you have left for the down payment. And if you save over 600 bucks a month, you'll have another eight grand. So a year from now, you have 78 ,000 to put down on a house. How much house can we afford with that number? That's the kind of tactical homework you guys have to do tonight instead of just a lot of feelings.

52:37Look at you. I know, and I went right into the feelings. I just, I'm - Pay half off and just see how we all feel. I'm just a nerd. I'm like, enough. Let's use logic, people. But money is always emotional. It's good.

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54:29Julia is in Denver up next. Julia, welcome to The Ramsey Show. Hi. Hello. It's so great to talk to you. Hello. Can you hear me? Yes. You sound great. We're happy to talk to you. Wonderful. I'm actually a huge fan of your guys' show. I actually try your mocktails on the regular. Oh, fun. Smart Money Happy. our fan we love to see it yes you guys do talk what everyone else is talking about that's our tagline that's it that's our tagline rachel is very relatable that way well george i've actually talked to you before when you and dave were on the show um and i was the one who uh was asking about my mom's student loans but and stuff like that um i will say updates from them i got a job a full-time job that isn't just ba work which I'm not an Instagram influencer just to clarify.

55:26And my husband actually was able to get a part-time job. The reason he was able to get that job was because it was a seasonal job. But now we're coming out of season. They're keeping him, praise the Lord. But it's not enough. And we're still struggling to get any other work from, you know, just applying. And so we're trying to use, what's his name, Ken Hellman's strategy, the proximity principle. Yeah. Okay. By using my company, because they have a position open, and my boss said that if we have him apply, he'll have a really high chance of getting that position. The problem is he would need a car, and we're down to one car right now.

56:08Okay. So being in step two, I'm wondering, is it better to move on or hold off paying no debt and get a beater that'll just work for this job because we'll be making more money? Yeah, because how much of a raise would he get? Go ahead. Sorry. How much of a raise will he get with the job versus what he's making now? So right now he's only making like it's really low hours. He was getting at most he got 30 hours during seasonal, but now he's getting like 15 hours. And what does he get paid? little, which is really hard for him because he's a manager and he lost his job because of some other stuff.

56:43But so he's having a hard time wanting to ask for more hours, knowing how little he is. I mean, he still is asking for more hours, but they can't really give him much. So it would raise him by about$2 ,000 more a month. OK, so he's getting a 24 grand raise. Yeah. Amazing. OK, so, yeah. So if you guys stopped the debt snowball, saved up some cash for him to get a car and say you paused for 90 days and worked like crazy, did whatever you could. Yeah. Could you save two grand a month if you really went for it? Yes, we can. We just moved into a new apartment. So last month we had to move into just a better situation for our living.

57:29so we weren't able to get ahead with like that or anything like that but that those expenses are no longer worried about it's just like i i don't have a good vision on how much we have i mean i have a budget and everything and ideally what we should be making we're still kind of figuring that out so i can't say for sure that we can save about two grand a month um but i think it's very doable if we do a little extra instacart okay i have an ignorant question if you guys work at the same company why can't you carpool um so because it's not so i'm a merchandiser and i go i have 10 different store locations so i'm traveling it's not like an eight to five in the same building you're moving all over the place and he's he would be more of an eight to five in the building no he would be doing something similar to what i'm doing oh so he'd be traveling to different stores as well on his own.

58:23Right. Exactly. Okay. Well, this is a solvable problem. I would pause right now and just stack up cash real fast. Now, this is not we're going to take a break for a year from paying off debt. Like Rachel said, this is like three months max. We're going to go really hard. And worst case, if you're not there yet and you need to rent a car for a month, do that. Borrow a car, whatever you need to do to get by as he takes on this new job, that's okay. But just please don't take out a car loan because you quote had to. I know you're better than that, Julia. I know, but that's the calls we get. He needed a$40 ,000 truck because he got a new job.

58:59Yeah. Okay. So that's the game plan. How sure is it that he's going to get this job? They said that they don't have anyone applying for this position right now. So as soon as we apply, they'll get him. What will your total household income be at that point? Right. So it increased by 2000. We'd be at 7K a month. The 7K total is what you'd be bringing home a month? Mm-hmm. Awesome. And then how much debt do you have left? So I did the math and it's actually more than we were expecting. We're in 60K right now. Okay. And what makes up the 60K? Okay. So 16 ,000 of it is his credit card, which I'm getting really nervous about because we We haven't made any payments on it in a while.

59:43Yikes. And then we have my student loans, which is about$12 ,000. And those are under my name. That's not the Parent Plus loan with my mom. Okay. And then what you guys advised for me to wait to worry about that, so I'm not even including that in this. The Parent Plus loan? Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't worry about that right now. And then there is just like a bunch of odd end things. Like our last apartment, we ran into just some issues with the landlord. They didn't take our rent when we wanted to pay because we were behind a month and it was a whole thing. And so now we have$8 ,000 to go towards an apartment complex.

1:00:23You owe them? Which we... In like back rent? Yes, we owe them. Okay. Are you guys done taking on debt? We could buy them because we tried. So, huh? Are you guys done taking on debt? Are you still using credit cards or anything like that? No. We haven't used a credit card ever since we got married. This was before I married my husband. Julia, are you guys done? If he gets this job, what time are you guys home at night? Like hour-wise? That's a great question because he could, the position that we're looking for, he could do later in the day. Whereas I can work early in the morning and that would help with the baby because we do have an eight-month-at-home.

1:01:01Okay, yeah. Yeah. So it'd probably be like I'd be working in the morning and he'd be working at night. OK. Yeah. Yeah. So you guys would. But not hopefully not too long term, because hopefully once you're out of this debt, you guys can, you know, factor in maybe daycare or something. I don't know. So you at least get on the same schedule so you're not missing each other for years, you know, in life. You don't want that's not sustainable for your marriage, for sure. Here's the math on this. Can you guys put three grand a month with this new income towards your debt? minimum payments plus extra, can you do three grand a month?

1:01:34Like after we get the car and get this position? Yeah. Once you guys are settled and stable in this new life. Yeah, we should be able to. Okay, because that means 60K, three grand a month, you're done in 20 months. And that's if you don't do more than that. Less than two years, yeah. If you guys go more aggressive, you can get it done in 18 months, 12 months, and so that's the math. Yeah, that's why I was asking about the hours, because if you guys could keep up the Instacarting or something on the side and bring in. Yeah, don't stop the side gigs. Like that's the gazelle intensity that we talk about in maybe step two of you guys are just crazy people, right?

1:02:05You're just doing anything and everything to earn income, cut lifestyle. I mean, it is like we are putting everything. Because every, if you think about it, every$200,$300 that you can put that's not going out in lifestyle towards this debt, that's a couple hours that you're not working. I mean, it's just that give and take. So it's like just deep, deep sacrifice. And again, if you do that, like George said, in less than two years, you guys could be out, which is just huge. How long have you been in debt? My whole adult life. Don't you think you deserve better, Julia? I do. I think you do, too.

1:02:45So I think we make a plan tonight. We spit shake and say, hey, hubby, we're going to go hard in the paint until this thing is gone. We're both working like crazy. It's a competition of who can work more hours at this point. We're very competitive, so that works out. And we're very ambitious. I mean, he has his own business, and it's hard for him to invest in that with all the debt and everything. And then I have a ministry, and there's all this other stuff going on in our life that we want to do. You have a great why. He wants to run this business. You want to be generous and run this ministry.

1:03:20So all of these things will fuel the journey when it gets really hard, when you guys are both exhausted. and instead of fighting each other, you go, good job today. Way to go. Thank you for providing for our family. Thank you for knocking out this debt. We are worth being debt free. And you guys will get there in no time. Are you guys using EveryDollar right now? We are. I just got the subscription in December. Good. You are on the way, Julia. Call us back and we will celebrate with you maybe 20 months from now. Worst case, you got this.

1:03:55Thank you.

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1:04:59Robert is in Columbia, South Carolina up next. Robert, what's going on? Hey, how are you today? We're doing great. How can Rachel and I help? Yeah, so I have a lot going on. First question that I have is where to start with everything that I have going on. um i've recently in the last month i own a business i've had a business now for going on three years this will be my third year um first year i did great second year i cut back and um i had too many eggs in a basket and they went with a different contractor and so to speak i'm losing about 80 percent of my income oh gosh so what was it and what is it now So my income was$6 ,000 or really$4 ,000, and it's dropping down to about$2 ,000.

1:06:01Okay. So you went from$4 ,000 to$2 ,000? Well, really$6 ,000 to$2 ,000, but I was putting money back in savings and using that for the business. Got it. But you were kind of taking from the business, you were taking six for your own personal goals? Yes, sir. Okay. Are you actively trying to replace that since you know that it's going to be cut? I mean, are you? Yes, I am. What's the plan for that? So I've been going and meeting with different owners, and I actually am looking at taking on more contracts than what I had before. I just don't have the contract signed right now. Oh, good. Okay. So in the pipeline, you got some leads here.

1:06:46Yes, sir. Good, good, good. But in the meantime, it sounds like there's other pieces here. Do you have debt? Yes, I do. To be completely honest, I'm behind on my taxes. In my personal life, I'm looking at doing a bankruptcy. I have enough money saved up right now to float me by for two months if something does not come through. and then after that I will basically lose everything that I have built. I have four children and I have a fiancé. Wow. Okay. How much debt do you have? So after the bankruptcy, it will basically just be my tax debt. Wait, have you filed? Where are we at when you say after the bankruptcy?

1:07:32Is that in process? I have. Yeah, it is in process. So I have one more final payment before I'll have my court date. Okay. And can I ask why you filed? So I had a few judgments put on me from a past marriage that I had. Okay. I took all the debt from that, and they reached out to me and put some judgments on me for some vehicles that we had. Okay. Okay. So you have, you're coming out of that, and do you have, you have no money personally saved for these upcoming months? Other than two months' worth. That's correct. Two months, okay. How much do you owe the IRS? I would say about$26 ,000. And is that back taxes, or is that, hey, I should have been making these estimated payments, it'll be due in April and I don't have it?

1:08:34Yeah, so that's back taxes, and then come April we'll be for another tax year. And you don't have—that'll be another$26 ,000 or so that you'll owe? Yes. Yes. Okay, so we basically owe$50 ,000 to the IRS. What other debts do you currently have? I have a truck that I've been working diligently to get paid off. I'm about$900 away from having that paid off. Okay. Good. I also have a family vehicle that I've been working diligently. I'm about$600 from having that paid off. So$1 ,500 and you free up both car payments. Yes, sir. I would dip into that savings you have and pay those off today. Okay. That lowers your expenses measurably.

1:09:19Yeah. How much is each car payment? So combined, they're about$900. Okay. Yeah, that. And then, Robert, I'm like, I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here. But if you know you're going to be going down to$2 ,000 and you know there's contracts in the pipeline, but they're not signed and there are no guarantee, go get another job. Can you go work? Yeah. So I'm actually I'm looking at going into drill and making about$10 ,000 a month. And the only thing that's holding me up from that is one of this. This is another issue I have. Me and my fiancee disagree on finances quite a bit. And so this last Sunday, I started up an FPU nine-week course.

1:10:09So I'm currently trying to have that conversation with her on cutting back and canceling out debt to improve our financial life. So when you say you're not aligned, where is she at on all this financial situation? Does she even know what's going on? Yes. So she does know what's going on, and she trusts me to provide. I've always provided. However, we don't see eye to eye on things such as cutting out Wi-Fi, cutting out all the things that are not necessary to be able to cancel out debt and basically restart. and we don't see eye to eye on that. Does she work outside the home? No. She currently, she's a stay-at-home mother with her four children.

1:11:02Okay. So does she understand the reality that, hey, we have$2 ,000 to cover all of our bills and we can't afford that? So therefore, we don't have an option but to cut. This isn't like a, hey, let's just really hunker down and get rid of the debt. You guys are in storm mode right now. Yeah, how old are the kids? So I have a nine-year-old, a six-year-old, a four-year-old, and then a three-year-old. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. In my head, this is like a little bit on fire, right? I mean, you're coming out of a bankruptcy. Yeah. You guys have$2 ,000 with tax. You know, you have the IRS that's going to be freaking all over your business.

1:11:47You've got to focus on that before anything else. Yeah. And so for me, it's all it's all hands on deck. So I need to be looking at what she can do to bring home money from being a stay at home mom. If I'm you, I'm looking at three different jobs or the 10 or the drill. You know, how sure is the drilling gig and what do you need to do to actually get the job? It's for sure. I just have to go and do the paperwork in a different state and go for the training classes. How long does that take? um well they paid me during training um i could probably have that secure within three weeks go ten thousand dollars a month is is she on board with this i don't care because you're ditching the family for two weeks is it's going to be a problem and your business as well they don't have money yeah no i'm making sure this is a reality he can just go do this right now I know.

1:12:42So the current situation with it is I'll have to be gone for three weeks, come back home for two weeks. So there's that. And then... Like ongoing. There's also... Yeah, it's ongoing. Every month it would be that way. And then there's also the current talk of should I give up on a business that in our first year we made almost$200 ,000 and did fantastic. however we did not financially save back from this you know it was kind of money listen if I'm you guys I'm like we have to have we have to have some major changes in our lives because we have$50 ,000 that we're going to owe to the IRS with both you know both years you know we were I don't know to me I'm like do what you have to do for six months and let's reevaluate in August Like go do the drilling thing and put every extra months.

1:13:41Yes. I mean, that'll clear out the debts. You know, maybe you do it for a year and that's it. I mean, talk to people that are deployed. Right. I mean, they're gone from their families for six months at a time. So it is possible. I'm not saying it's the only option, but it's a very, very great option. It's right in front of you for a short season, for just a season. It doesn't be forever. And then when you guys actually have your head above water and you actually have somewhat of stability, then we can look to see, okay, what do we want to do with this business? And should we, you know, get it back going?

1:14:12But if I'm y 'all and I'm coming out of bankruptcy and my income's being shot, I'm just looking anywhere to make money at this point to feed four kids. And yes, your fiance, I'm sorry, she needs to grow up and understand how math works. This is not like a, I want to keep up my lifestyle. You don't make$200 ,000 anymore. That's what she has to realize. You don't. So what are you going to do?

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1:15:46If you have a simple tax situation, like you haven't had any major life changes or big investments, check out Ramsey Smart Tax. Ramsey Smart Tax is affordable, keeps filing simple, plus it has built-in support in case you need a little help. Filing early means getting the best deals and you get that tax stress off your shoulders. So as soon as you get all your tax documents, head to ramsaysolutions.com slash smart tax and start filing. Matt is in Colorado Springs. What's going on, Matt?

1:16:16First thing I just want to say is y 'all are such a blessing to so many people. Thank you. I've listened for quite some time and I'm just thankful for what y 'all do. and now I find myself in a situation where I could use some advice. Thank you, Matt. Yeah. So I guess the brass tacks of the situation is I've got a pretty considerable amount of IRS debt. I own two businesses and I've just kind of got myself in a little bit of a hole. And so the question is if there's any credibility to tax relief programs and things of that nature. well they're often marketed to people who are desperate and vulnerable which is never a good sign you know when they're that usually means they're predatory and they're promising way over promising and under delivering so what they tell you to do is basically hey don't pay a dime you pay us instead and what's going to happen is tanks your credit which with the irs not the people you want to not pay and so they then try to settle for you and save you money which by the way you can do all of this yourself.

1:17:31And with the IRS, they can already set up a payment plan. So there's really no use for a tax relief program in this situation. Okay. They're just paid middlemen between you and the IRS. Right. And the other office that I contacted was more of like a tax attorney that talks more about the future plan for the taxes for the business to avoid this issue in the future, which may be beneficial. But then his office was saying, we don't recommend these tax relief programs because they're over-promising, under-delivering. Perfect. I'm in line with an attorney. That's a good day for me. Okay. So I guess the question is, if you were in this situation, what steps you might take?

1:18:19Yeah. How much do you make a year, Matt? uh it's kind of relative uh probably somewhere around 100 or so okay and do you have anything in savings yeah i typically try not to dip below 15 or 20 in savings so you have 20 yeah about about right there right now yeah the issue with my particular business is extremely seasonal with construction. So, you know, I kind of hunker down in the wintertime and, you know, rice and beans and just about nothing. So, but then in the busier season, it's easier to tackle some of these things. So. What kind of construction? Outdoor, you know, fence and deck and a lot of carpentry kind of stuff.

1:19:12soon. Cool. Well, the good news is you can still work during that time and make money, and you can definitely pay this money back in a reasonable amount of time. Do you have any other debts that are holding you back from creating the margin to knock this out quick? Yeah, there's still about$20 ,000 remaining on a HELOC. And I already know that's a teeth-grinding word for you, probably, but that, you know, it's one of those situations where, sure, I could pay that off, but then, you know, you have to worry about the bills right now. So if I were to pay it off, I would wait until the money's coming in more fluently.

1:19:55Okay. So you got 40 to the IRS, 20 on the HELOC. Anything else? That's about it. I've paid off, I don't know, 20 ,000-something in credit cards. great good for you no car loan yeah well i would this changes the debt snowball a little bit because irs debt gets moved to the front so even before the heloc i would be tackling this 40 and i would just make it an aggressive goal and again i don't know if it's a payment plan that you contact the irs with but i mean i would try to have this all paid off in less than a year yeah um so i guess other pieces of the equation are i've got to file the last two years of taxes i'm behind on that so there'll be probably another 10 to 15 after all the expenses and whatnot so let's call it 60 is that fair sure so if we call it 60 you know you owe 60 set up a payment plan with them and maybe it's hey you're going to pay a thousand a month or two thousand a month and then once you get down to that you know you got 15 grand left i would use your savings to just knock it out and then you can replenish the savings really what you do is then attack the HELOC, then replenish the savings.

1:20:59So I guess the questions then become, you know, I pay a considerable amount of additional principal on my home. Does it make more sense to factor that into this equation? Yeah, I would just pay your mortgage. I would make the minimum mortgage payment. Why are you paying extra on the principal of your home right now? Generally, just, you know, you look at the amateurization schedule and all of that, and it, you know, over a course of time, It just makes sense. Yeah. And it does in the right order, but you want to get this stuff cleaned up. So if you went down to just your mortgage payment, how much does that free up a month?

1:21:33Probably about another$1 ,000 or so. Oh, great. So how much could you reasonably put towards this IRS debt every month if you got aggressive? Well, this is where it gets tricky because, you know, I listen to your show constantly and people are like, well, I make this exact amount every month or every two weeks. And for me, I have months where it's$15 ,000,$20 ,000, and I have months where it's$2 ,000. But you've been doing this a while, so you probably could look at a calendar and semi-guess. Like, this probably will be good months here, low months here. So, yeah, so you may be putting, you know, maybe$1 ,300,$1 ,400 towards this on a low month.

1:22:08But a good month, you could be throwing$3 ,000 at it, right? Sure. So I would kind of just map it up that way. and I'm already set up on like their minimum amounts, 400 something a month. So I've been actively attacking it for a couple of years. But it seems like every dollar that goes into it's just paying off the accruing interest, you know? Right, right. You need to get way more aggressive on this, which means all focus is on this IRS debt. No extra on the mortgage. Your budget is bare bones. You are just covering four walls, food, utility, shelter, transportation, insurance. Anything else is going towards this and try to make it to where there's no gap in income.

1:22:47Now, I understand you're going to have some really good months and some rough months, but I don't want you just sitting around going, well, there's no work to be done right now. Sure. But I guess in general, you wouldn't, you know, I mean, I could run the HELOC up more and pay that and it might be less percentage that I'm paying. We are not adding a cent to the HELOC. We're not going to keep going with this line of credit. We are done with that. So just keep it where it is. keep up with the minimum payment, and then all of your guns are pointed toward this IRS debt for the time being. Now, do you think it would make sense to sell off additional assets to try to do this?

1:23:23What do you have? Well, I've got a considerable number of vehicles and machinery that are mostly associated with the business. I mean, they're, for all intents and purposes, mine, but the business owns them. Yeah, would it decimate the business income if you sold these off? Yeah, do you need it, though, to run your business? Well, it's probably like a half and half kind of number. I mean, you know, skid steers and tractors and things, they're relatively essential. Do you have one piece of machinery you're thinking of that you're like, okay, I could sell that and be okay? Doesn't get a lot of use, doesn't create a lot of revenue right now.

1:23:59Yeah, yeah. What could you get for that? I mean, probably somewhere between 15 and 20. Wow. A thousand? then? Yeah. That period with your savings gets you out of the IRS debt like tomorrow. Yes. Yeah. I kind of figured y 'all would be on that boat. And you can always buy and use later if you need it, right? With cash. Sure. Yeah. And again, that's all saying that that's not affecting your business. I don't want you to have to turn business down. I don't want you to lose half your income because you sold this thing. Right. Right. Right. So you want to be smart about it. But if it's something that you're really not using or really need and you get 20 grand off of it, yeah.

1:24:36I'm doing that for sure. Yeah, I'm a huge advocate of not having car loans and I fix them all myself and whatnot. That's great. Yeah, anything you have, Matt, I would. Because I think if you had no IRS debt and no HELOC, how would you feel? Like I could scream. Like amazing. I could scream I'm debt free. Exactly, yeah. So I'm like, yeah, whatever you could do to get to that level of peace and control is what we're after. And then later when the business is doing great and you have all this freed up money because you don't have debt, you're able to save. And if you need to go buy some equipment.

1:25:11Can I flow some equipment? Then you can. I'm changing the Dave quote. Now it sells so much stuff the skid steer thinks it's next. Because it is, my friend. Good luck selling it. Hope you get a great buyer who's happy to pay you what it's worth.

1:25:44welcome back to the ramsey show in the fairwinds credit union studio i'm george camel joined by rachel cruz the number to call is triple eight eight two five five two two five if you want to join the conversation john is in jacksonville florida up next john welcome to the show how are y 'all doing great how can we help uh yes um first of all i'd like to say thank y 'all for everything y 'all do um my wife and i are 36 years old and by the time we're 40 we are potentially going to be network millionaires due to what y 'all teach on this show oh my gosh that's incredible all the work you've guys done we were just sitting here doing jack squat you did the hard work man proud of you Well, thank y 'all so much It's definitely changed the family's trajectory However, unfortunately My mother and father are not in the same state My father passed away on 12 January And I'm my mother's financial power of attorney And they are in Or she is in some pretty bad financial jeopardy So I'm looking for y 'all's advice Oh no, I'm sorry about your dad Was you say it was just this January, like this month?

1:26:57this month correct oh i'm so sorry um okay so what yeah what did he what did he leave your mom with um so we'll go ahead and set aside the 70 000 mortgage um but it's a total of 113 526 dollars and 54 cent of debt my mom is 61 years old she's still currently working but only nets $37 ,000 a year. Okay. What kind of debt is the$113 million? Yeah, so the$113 million is$50 ,000 worth of IRS debt. $23 ,000 is owed to collections. Let's see. We have...

1:27:42I've got to get my stuff together here. Yeah, it's about$40 ,000 more somewhere. There's credit card debt. Right, right. Yeah, so let's see,$22 ,305.29 in credit card debt. And that's different than the debt in collections, correct? That is different than the debt that's in collections. The debt in collections, what is that? Is that medical debt? Is that credit cards? Well, it was a personal loan. He dealt with some dementia later in his life. that that that personal loan he ended up forgetting to pay forgetting to pay forgetting to pay it got passed off collections okay got it um so and how much is yeah any more i'm sorry yeah any more consumer debt uh yes they have um 14 ,755 dollars and 73 cent in um auto and personal loans and And then there's another$3 ,465.52 and a personal loan as well.

1:28:50Okay. The$14 ,000, is that one car or two cars? So the$14 ,000, the auto loan is$2 ,634.74. The other part of that$14 ,000 is two personal loans. Gosh, okay. What was he using all those personal loans for? What was he doing? Yeah, we don't even know why they were taken out. We really don't. Now, were these all in his name, or were they jointly held? No, sir. All three of these are in his name, but there's one person alone in my mom's name, which is$3 ,465. Okay. Well, I just want to make sure that we don't go paying debts that she doesn't legally owe, if they're only in his name and not jointly held.

1:29:35Now, I'm assuming they did their taxes married filing jointly? yeah that's a good question i actually think they get them separate um but i can't speak to that confidently yeah because the irs debt would be yeah if it were if they file jointly then she's going to be responsible but if not she may not be the estate would pay it but not her personally and if the you know so if the estate can't cover it she may not owe it personally that's where i want to get clear on this and you may need to work with an estate attorney to kind kind of go through all this mess and figure out what was owed, whose name is on what, what does she legally have to pay, then we can get a real game plan of what we're going to do.

1:30:17I got you. I'm taking notes now. Because if, you know, 75 % of the debt is wiped away, you know, you send a death certificate and they go, all right, we can't collect, it wasn't in her name, and that might really save her in that regard. Because she can't pay$113 ,000. The amount of the IRS debt is definitely going to fall on her, I think, regardless of whether or not they file jointly, because for whatever reason, and she didn't know that she wasn't doing this, since 2014, at some point in time, there was something that changed to where her taxes were not getting withheld. And his, for whatever reason, were not getting withheld.

1:30:59We don't know if he somehow found a way to change that without her knowing. um yeah so it since 2014 yeah now when she found out that that was an issue she got it changed but that wasn't until two years um that she found out that and he yeah because if her taxes were not being withheld then yes then some of this irs that might be in her name but i would that's where george is saying like to get clear on whose name yes is on this debt because that that will make a significant difference and things like collections um john you guys can i mean and on her behalf you can help with this you can settle that kind of stuff so quickly you need the money for it but they may settle pennies on the dollar you know with this 23 000 and it's not been paid it's not been paid they're not expecting to get their money so you may be able to settle for gosh five grand five thousand yeah um now you would need the cash to do that and go through that process.

1:31:56But yeah, there's some hope in that. But with the credit cards and all the personal loans, contact the banks and figure out whose name is on the debt. That's going to be really important. Yeah, I've already put all the legwork into whose name's on the debt. The tax question, I definitely need to get answered. Okay. Have you pulled his credit report? I have. Okay. So that's going to give you a pretty clear picture of what is owed. And then you can check the tax records as well. Did he have retirement savings or anything? He had no savings at all. I will give you this. So we did get a sigh of relief.

1:32:35And I know how Dave preaches against whole life insurance. I guess in November, he took out two policies for whole life insurance that nobody knew about. But whenever I started going to statements, I found the payments. and one of them is 10K, the other one is 20K. And then we also just found out that he had a, from his retirement, he had a group term life that is still, that my mom's a beneficiary of for 29. Wow. There's like 60K sitting here to clean this up. Right. We're working on trying to get my mom through the legwork of getting that stuff. but you know that's going to take some time right now they got a lot of payments coming out yeah and you know she gets paid on a weekly basis yeah can she make more i don't know what she does but at 61 she she might still have you know another 15 years of work to go and so she can go make 50 or 60, this changes her life dramatically.

1:33:41She currently works for the city. And she's trying to work on that retirement. Now, she might be able to pick up a side gig because there is a retirement involved in her current job. But she may be able to look in picking up a side gig. I'm not so certain that she'd be willing to leave. Yeah, it would be better for her to work hard and work uncomfortable hours honestly to get some of this cleaned up while she's young so that way in four or five six years she could possibly scale back while still saving for retirement and hopefully maybe still have enough there but yeah john i'm so sorry

1:34:32When you're tired of feeling stuck with money, there's just one solution. To get different results, you have to do something different. No one accidentally wins with money. You have to have a game plan, and that begins with our Get Started Assessment. Go to RamseySolutions.com slash start, answer some questions, and we'll show you what steps to take next. Don't stay stuck. Take control of your money starting today. Go with RamseySolutions.com slash start.

1:35:18The Ramsey Show question of the day is brought to you by Y-Refi. You don't have to stay stuck in defaulted private student loans forever. Y-Refi helps borrowers take back control with affordable refinancing options that actually work. Learn more at Y-Refi.com slash Ramsey. That's Y-R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. Not available in all states. Today's question comes from Lucy in Oregon. She said, I'm concerned about being a target of deed fraud if we pay off our mortgage. If we keep our current mortgage, the bank would have to notify us if someone tried to take out a second mortgage to steal our equity.

1:35:54We're both in our 70s. I am retired and my husband plans to retire soon. The balance on the mortgage is$48 ,000 and we have the funds to take out of our 401k to pay it off. What should we do? Wow. Okay. Well, I mean, deed fraud, it does exist, but I'm not going to be so paranoid that I keep my mortgage around for it. To do it. Right. Because you can always, you know, if God forbid that happened, it's not super common. More when you're like, you know, buying homes, making sure the deed's, you know, good. And I don't know. There's some things you can do. We bought a home recently. We got owner title insurance, which protects you against that.

1:36:30Yes. So if you're worried about it, I would look into one of those policies. Yeah, to do that. And you can sign up with your county and get deed alerts as well. So that's also one way to protect against it. Yeah, and you can also, you know, if it did happen, God forbid, you're not going to be on the line for it because it's fraud. And so you can go through the bank and, you know, maybe some, I don't know, lawsuit stuff. But at the end of the day, you're not going to have to owe it because it's fraud at that point. Yeah. So I wouldn't be so worried that I avoid paying my house off. That's wild.

1:37:01You're in your 70s. There is a much more risk with this mortgage hanging around than there is that you guys experience deed fraud. Yeah. So I wouldn't worry about that. I would just pay it off and do your due diligence to stay protected. You know, freeze your credit, check the records with your county regularly, get the owner title insurance if you can, all of that good stuff. But it's a good question, and it's a valid concern. So thank you for that. Alan is in Colorado up next. What's going on, Alan? Thank you for taking my call. I have a question about a 529 account that my wife and I have for our son.

1:37:37When he is finished with college, which is just a couple years down the road, there will be approximately$120 ,000 left in the 529 account. Oh, wow. Way to go. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty strong. I have an opinion of what to do with it, but I was just curious to get y 'all's take. How old is the 529? When did you open it? Oh, boy. Our son is 20. So let's say 20 years ago. Oh, great. I was going to say there's the, with the new Secure 2.0 Act, you can roll over up to 35 grand if it's been open for 15 years. You know, you can use that periodically. You can't do all 35 at once, but up to the Roth IRA limit, you can start funding that.

1:38:18So that's one option. Yeah. Do you have other kids, Alan? No, we don't. You don't? Okay. It's just this. Yeah. Well, if you do that, you know, that's 35 out. So you got about, what, 85 or so, 95 left. You said you had a plan already. I'm curious as to what you wanted to do. So my thought is keep it. Keep the 529. We're the guardian of it. Put it in his name. He's an adult now. But don't let him touch it. Just have it be there so it's generational. When his kids are ready to go to college, that's going to be a pretty large sum. When his kids' kids get ready to go to college, it'll be astronomical.

1:39:01It's something that you can really just leave. That's true. A lot of people don't think about that. It becomes like an endowment, basically, for your own family, generational wealth, that no one ever goes into debt for education. And that's personally what I'm doing. A lot of people go, well, I don't want to overfund it because what if they don't go to college? And I go, if I overfund it, they're going to love old great-great-grandpa George for setting up this 529 many moons ago. And can I do some math for you? Your kid is 20, right? He's 20. So let's say he has a kid at what, 25? Is that fair?

1:39:34It's optimistic, but sure. Okay. Should we go 30? Is that more realistic? Yeah. Go 30. Plus 18 years. So that kid then grows up. Yeah. So your son will be 48 when your grandson, granddaughter goes to college, theoretically. How much would be in the account? So from 20 to 48, if you just left, let's say, 90 grand in there, right? Didn't do anything. You never contributed another dime. you'd have$1.4 million when he's 48. I hope that's enough to cover college at that point. And something, too, I was thinking is even if his kids don't want to go or do go and there's extra, at 65, correct me if I'm wrong, he can start using that for his own retirement with no penalties.

1:40:17Yeah, there's a lot of stipulations with the 529. And even if he used it before then, you know, he'd pay the 10 % penalty. but other than that it's not like wasted money yeah you'll pay some yeah thrown down the toilet so i think you're being very wise with this and i love the idea of creating generational wealth and a lot of people don't realize the definition of beneficiary family is pretty loose and so siblings nieces nephews future kids yourself your spouse a grandchild there's so many options here that you could bless someone with in your family agreed that's right and so let's say you got a brother and they're like, hey, they didn't prepare, but the kid doesn't deserve to go into crippling debt just because of that.

1:40:57I'd love to transfer this to them. You can change beneficiaries at any time. At that point. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of ways you can go with it. Yes, for sure. Well done, Alan. That's usually not, it's usually the opposite problem that we talk to people about. So it's like a parent plus loan. This is the exact opposite. So I'm curious, how much money did it cost for your kid to go through school? so first off something else too we owe it to dave ramsey from like 2005 you all have been a blessing to both my wife and i um so much further we we actually taught many many fpu classes thank you so yeah you're welcome you're welcome so this 529 account we actually showed him how compounding interest works.

1:41:46We stopped investing in the 529 when he was a freshman in college at 150. That's about where it was at. He's gone through three years of school and it's at 159. Wow. It's crazy. So you're telling me that it was growing faster than you were withdrawing. That's what I'm telling you. That's incredible. That's amazing. And it sounds like he went to a reasonably priced school and maybe even got some other scholarships. Well, a few scholarships. He wasn't, you know, he wasn't Albert Einstein, but he did okay. And, yeah, it was a state school, so$20 ,000,$22 ,000,$23 ,000. Totally. That's incredible.

1:42:25Yeah. That's the dream, Alan. Well done. Way to go. Just applaud you. I mean, honestly, that is— If you're in the family tree of Alan, you should be thankful right now. That's right. Pretty awesome. Thank you for the call. That's a cool kind of case study in what actually happens when you do it right. Yes. And so I always recommend get started early on that 529, even if it's a hundred bucks, 200 bucks, 300, 400, 500. Now you're talking six figures in there by the time they're 18. For sure. And the college conversation I feel like has been around a little bit changing, right? That college is changing.

1:42:56We don't know what it's going to look like. Are we all going to be YouTubers and AI is going to do all the work for us? Yeah, that's right. Like we don't know, but just remember it's not stuck in there to your point. It's not like you're, you know, it's an insane amount. If you were to pull it out, just say, God forbid, you're like, listen, we don't need this at all, but we need the cash, so we're going to take the penalty. Okay, so then you do that, right? And you pay some of the penalty, but then you have your cash. It's not like you lose it completely. Absolutely. And people ask, well, what if I want to invest for my kid for something else other than school?

1:43:26I say, great. Do the 529. Don't trade those dollars for investing over here. If you want to invest on top of that, you can just open a brokerage account in your name, a non-retirement account, and put money in there. I'm not a fan of putting the accounts in your kids' names because they legally then have access with the UGMA or UTMA. At 18, this kid might have$120 ,000 that's legally theirs. That's frightening. I don't know if you know or any 18-year-olds. Most of them cannot be trusted with a$120 ,000 pile of money. Most adults can't be trusted with that. I was going to say, yeah. And so I like the idea of me being able to control how much to give to that child for a wedding or a down payment or a car, whatever it is, to help them get a leg up.

1:44:08Yeah. Delayed gratification for a 45-year-old, 50-year-old is probably a little bit more embedded than an 18-year-old. Yes. Their prefrontal cortex is not yet fully there. So that's personally what I'm doing for my kids. I got the 529s for each of them and I've got the brokerage accounts. so they'll be very thankful one day when homes are$4 million. And your grandkids. And my grandkids. Great, great, great Uncle George. That's so weird to think about. But I think Grandpa George, I'm going to settle into that. I love it. I'm going to be cranky, senile. You're going to be like George Banks on Steve Martin on Father of the Bride.

1:44:41Oh, that's a good one. I thought you were going George Bailey. A lot of good Georges out there in movies. Oh, it's a wonderful life. That's a good one too.

1:45:06How many of you are ready for a fresh start with money this year? Maybe you want to pay off debt or start saving for retirement. And those are great goals. But you're also probably thinking, well, sure, Rachel, but with what money? My budget is so tight as it is. Listen, I hear you. But you can do more with your money this year. And our EveryDollar budget app helps you find margin to make it happen. This is such a game changer. EveryDollar digs into your money situation just like we do on the show. Then it finds extra money you can put towards your goals every month. And the average person is finding$3 ,015 in just 15 minutes.

1:45:41Think about what that could mean for your family. Think about how much more peace you would have. Guys, you can make this an amazing year with money. Go download EveryDollar and start for free today.

1:46:02buying or selling your home is a big deal and with all the clickbait headlines and conflicting data out there it's hard to know what's really happening in the housing market so we're here to make the latest trends easy to understand median home prices dipped to about 400 grand last month which is typical for this time of year and mortgage rates also dip to 5.48 percent in December, down from 6.27 % last January, giving buyers some breathing room. I just saw 30-year mortgages dip down below 6 % for the first time in a long time. So rates are unpredictable. We don't know what's going to happen. And the best time to buy is when you're financially ready, not when you hope home prices or rates drop.

1:46:39And if you want to learn more about the market trends and get free tools to help you buy or sell with confidence, go to ramseysolutions.com slash market or click the link in the show notes if you're listening on podcast or YouTube. All right, we've got Lonnie up next in Dayton, Ohio. Lonnie, you with us? Yes, how you doing? Great. I see on my screen here that you were a baby steps millionaire. Is that true? That's correct. That is fantastic. Congratulations. Every now and then we like to highlight a real person who followed the plan, follows these principles, and has won with money doing it with a bunch of zeros on the end.

1:47:15And you are that person today, so congratulations. Thank you. So tell us your age. I am 54. And what is your net worth? $1.86 million. Fantastic. And break the mix down for us. I have a million in mutual funds that are scattered through my deferred compensation, a Roth IRA, a small annuity, and a few hundred thousand in an investment through my bank. Cool. What else? And I have$400 ,000 in my pension, which is a PERS, and that's the account value. If I were to quit, they would give me that amount. Or if I stick it through a couple more years, I would get the pension. Awesome. Great. And I have$500 ,000 in real estate.

1:48:14Fantastic. Is that your primary home? I have two homes. I have my primary home, which is just a modest couple hundred thousand dollar home. And then I have a condo in Florida, which is another couple hundred thousand. Awesome. Awesome. And they're paid off? Yes. Fantastic. Well done, Lonnie. What do you do for a living? I'm a manager for a municipality drinking water facility. Okay. Cool. So kind of public works, utilities? Yes. I've been there 30 years. Fantastic. Fantastic. Okay. And what was your worst year of income in this field and best year of income? I started out$11.25 an hour in 1996, and I thought it was great pay.

1:49:03That's still pretty decent, honestly. Yeah. And these last few years, we've been so shorthanded. I've been doing a lot of overtime, so it's just these past couple years have just been tremendous. Six figures? Yeah, easy. $150 ,000 a year, close. Awesome. Great job. Okay, did you inherit any of this money? No, I did not. But I would like to say my dad, he did give me close to$10 ,000 when I was a young kid, a minor.

1:49:40And since I would get these statements from that money, and I would see that grow, and that just fascinated me. that this money would grow like that. And being a miner, of course, I couldn't touch it, but I still felt like it was mine. So once I became an adult, it just made me want to save more. That's awesome. So did your dad teach you these financial principles? Yeah, he did. He was very, if I can say, tight with his money, and I can understand why. So he taught me that. Yeah, that's awesome. Did you get a four-year degree? I have an associate's in mathematics, and yeah, I have an associate's degree.

1:50:29Awesome. Fantastic. Yeah. Man, you've really been crushing it. Are you single? Yeah, single. No kids. That did help. Just help speed things up. Less expenses. Less people in the way as you are building wealth. That's good. What kind of car do you drive, Lonnie? I have a couple vehicles, just the average truck and a car. I've never owned a new car. What's the year on those? My truck is a 2012, pretty low miles. Is it a Toyota? It is a GMC. GMC, okay. We get a lot of Hondas and Toyotas on these calls, so I was curious. Those are good cars, yeah. What else you got? I have a Ford Crown Victoria. It's an old cop car that I was able to buy.

1:51:22It's a heavy-duty car. Fantastic. Man, so what do you do with all the extra margin now? At 54, I mean, you could retire if you wanted to, but it sounds like you love what you do. uh you know that's that's a topic i wanted to talk about someday you know later on as i have this pension and i and i if i can if i can wait two more years i'll have my 32 years in but you know just thinking about that i just god i don't know if i can do it you know could i could i retire in just a year is it worth waiting for that pension what happens in two years with the pension you get a big monthly payment yeah in two years i'll have once you get your 32 years you qualify for your monthly pension which is how much but you uh 8200 a month nice that's a sweet payday yeah 54 i'm waiting you're still a young buck at 56 my friend and then you don't even have to touch your investments ever again it'll just become like generational wealth yeah right or you don't really have a lot of people leave some but also Lonnie go have some fun go do something crazy what is the thing that you still want to do that you're like uh I want to do this thing this is the big splurge for me yeah what's like the big thing I just I I want to travel I love traveling yes what's the next trip that you're excited about that you want to book uh looking I love to go to Norway.

1:52:58I've been to Europe a few times. I've been to Australia. I love the idea of new places. That's fantastic. I love that. Love it. Man, you're an inspiration, Lonnie. A lot of people want to be you when they grow up, and you've done a good job. You can tell these principles start early. You can make up for lost time if you're starting late at 40 or 50, but, man, you've been working hard for 32 years, living on less than you make, putting money into the investment accounts day in, day out. Yeah. And his, you know, his best year he was saying was recently at$150 ,000, which is a lot, right? But also it's not like he's making$500 ,000.

1:53:35Yeah. You don't have to make half a million dollars to do this, right? But it is that consistency over time that we see day in and day out with these net worth, you know, baby, baby subs millionaires. And it's, it's awesome. It's encouraging. And that really is, is, these are the principles, guys. Here's the recipe. If If you're like, well, how am I going to become a millionaire or a multimillionaire, which, you know, he's on his way to. Here's the principle. Live on less than you make. Invest the difference consistently and then just wait. And compound growth will eventually take over. And what you realize is you put$100 ,000 in over time, but now it's grown to a million dollars.

1:54:10So$900 ,000 might just be the compound growth. Yeah. Because your$10 made a dollar. So now you have$11. Well, that made another$1.10. And so it keeps spiraling and adding up over time. And it's hard because you don't see it at first. At first, you're like, this isn't even doing anything. I'd rather enjoy this money. But if you just wait and hang on and you can type some numbers into our investment calculator on our website, it will blow your mind. And if you've got kids, I mean, he said, I got this at 10 years old. Yes. And he didn't even have the internet back then to pop an investment calculator.

1:54:45To see what that would be. He had to do like math on paper. But that's what a testament to his dad, though. His dad brought him in and showed him how and it worked. So to Lonnie's credit, like it stuck for him. But there's something about, you know, exposing your kids to this stuff to be like, hey, this is what can happen. Right. You're giving them that knowledge. And that's a gift. Like what Lonnie's dad did. I'm like, yes, that's huge. I love that we have our Ramsey Education Foundations and Personal Finance curriculum in high schools all across the country. And we show them the that's one of their favorite lessons.

1:55:15edition. So yeah, you can buy it for your kids at home. So Ramseyeducation.com, if you're like, hey, I want my kids to get this earlier than I did, or maybe you still need to learn. That's okay. Just lead and say, hey, I want to learn along with you. And that compound growth lesson will blow their mind. They're going to go, hey, maybe I shouldn't buy that toy. I'm good to, I got enough toys. Mom, can you teach me how to like save this money, invest it? That's a cool lesson.

1:55:49Thank you.

1:55:55Hey, George Camel here. So you're thinking about buying or selling your home. It's exciting, but there's a lot to think about. And all those decisions can feel overwhelming. Well, here's the good news. You don't have to tackle the process alone. Ramsey's Real Estate Homebase is the place to find all of your free tools and resources for help to get prepared to buy or sell your home with confidence. You'll find calculators, start to finish guides, a podcast, and even an in-depth video course hosted by yours truly. What's not to love? So if you're ready to take the next steps toward your home goals, go to RamseySolutions.com slash real estate.

1:56:27That's RamseySolutions.com slash real estate.

1:56:49Our scripture of the day, Psalm 94, 19. When anxiety was great within me, your consolation brought me joy. Jim Collins said, Greatness is not a function of circumstance. Greatness, it turns out, is largely a matter of conscious choice and discipline. I like it. Paul is up next in Phoenix, Arizona. What's going on, Paul? Hey, guys, thanks for taking my call. I'm probably overthinking this. I know you guys, I listen to you pretty religiously, and you say pay off your house as soon as possible. we owe maybe 180 on our house it's worth in the mid 400s and we have the cash to do that but my only concern not a concern is we refinanced in 2020 when the rates were three percent does it make sense at this point still to pay that off or use that money elsewhere we have We have IRAs, 401ks, owner Ks, stuff like that going.

1:57:58And I didn't know if I should be putting more money in that or just pay the house off. Well, where are you guys at in the baby steps? Do you have any consumer debt? Credit cards. I have a work truck payment. I do home remodeling, general contractor. How much do you owe on the truck? Like 40. Okay. And how much do you owe on credit cards? None. Oh, no credit cards. I'm sorry. And what else? Minimal student loans. I don't know. It's like, oh, I shouldn't say minimal. $35 ,000 maybe. Okay. And how much do you have in savings? I want to say$350 ,000. $350 ,000. Whoa. Why don't you pay off everything?

1:58:40You could pay off all of your debt and your mortgage, like your consumer debt plus mortgage, and still have money left over. well i'm looking at possibly buying a lot or two and building a house like i said i'm a general contractor and building a new house yes and still keeping the old one well yeah it would it would be for um selling uh buying a lot yeah we can build the house roughly for 200 000 with the lot maybe $220 and sell it for$320,$330. Okay. So not to live in. It's like a spec home that you just want to sell because you can do this stuff. Gotcha. Well, here's where that would fall in the baby steps.

1:59:24And this is the plan we teach. It's the one Rachel and I follow. And here it is. You pay off all consumer debt. Then you get a fully funded emergency fund. Then you're investing 15 % of your income into retirement, putting a little away for college. Anything else can go towards mortgage principle. And so if you followed that through, which you can do in one fell swoop, which is amazing, you would pay off consumer debt at$75 total? Roughly, yes. Okay. And you said you had$350, right, in savings? Yes. So you pay off the$75 in consumer debt. Let's leave another, I don't know,$40 for your emergency fund.

1:59:58Is that fair? I would think so, yes. Okay. And then we're going to subtract your mortgage. I think$180. Yeah,$180. So that leaves you with a cool$55 ,000 left over to then start. That's kind of your new fund to start on this house project. So what's the lot going to cost? The lots are$30 ,000 roughly. So you could buy the lot for now after doing all of this. And by the way, think about how much you have freed up. What is your truck payment? $800 ,000. And what's your student loan payment? I want to say$300 ,000,$325 ,000. And what's your mortgage payment? I pay more than the minimum. I don't remember the minimum, but I pay like$1 ,600 a month.

2:00:42And that's with extra? Yes. So should we call it$1 ,200? You think you're putting a few hundred extra? I think it's in the 12, yes. Okay. So you would free up$2 ,300 a month, which means you could save$28 ,000 in one year just by freeing up the payments. That's by doing nothing else. That's without your extra. Okay. Which means you could probably cash flow this build.

2:01:07after I pay everything off. Yeah, exactly. And it reduces your risk. Think about that. Now you're not freaking out because you don't have a mortgage payment, you don't have any consumer debt, and you can cash flow this whole project, and then you're less worried and less desperate as you go through with this. Okay. That puts you in baby step seven. So then the world is your oyster. You can invest more than 15%, you can purchase real estate and cash, and that's exactly what you're going to be doing, right? You're not taking out any debt to do this lot or build? um i wasn't planning on it with the cash i have currently plus one of my 401ks is actually a money market which i have like 130 000 in it you're telling me you didn't invest the money um was it ever invested well some of it like i said some are in roth IRA roth and traditional IRAs and and a couple owner uh one owner k okay that's all that's all through this yeah but if Your 401k, if the money's in a money market account, that's not invested.

2:02:06So it's a separate amount. That's that's OK. So you do have a 401k that has investments. Correct. OK. And then you just have a separate money market. I wouldn't touch any of those. I think you can cash flow this. You sounds like you have a great income, too. What do you make a year?

2:02:25Most years in the low to mid 200s. Fantastic. That's great. And so worst case, this lot and build might be delayed a tiny bit, but man, the piece it's going to give you and the de-risking you're about to do by paying everything off, it's going to feel so good. And I have no doubt that you're going to be able to stack up that savings account right back to where it was. And I know it's such a weird way of looking at real estate because people, you know, they don't have the cash, Paul, like you do, right, to be able to go in and do something. but the beautiful thing when you do it all with cash and you know this being in real estate, I'm like, even if the world goes up and a pandemic again or whatever and everyone kind of freaks out and I don't know, there's just something about saying, okay, I don't owe a bank this money on this real estate and if we have to sit on it for a little bit, we're in no rush.

2:03:13We don't owe anyone anything on it so we can actually, we're not urgent to get rid of it because there's a payment and we're all stressed about it and you would actually possibly lose money in that way. we're going to just have the ability to have time on our side and all the control and all the power. And then when it does sell, and I'm praying it does, and you make a hundred grand, that's an extra hundred grand just to you guys, right? There's nothing to pay back. So there's something so nice about it. And I know you said originally you were going to do that anyways, but I would encourage you to, because this plan, the baby steps, it does cause a little bit more patience because you are going to have to save up to do this where you think like, okay, but I could just do it today because I have the money.

2:03:52But doing it in this order, it's a little bit slower, but it has way more control and way more peace, and that's what we're solving for. Okay. All right. So the big question everyone wants to know, are you about to go pay off your consumer debts today? We are going to plan it, yes. Yeah. That's a win. Man, I'm so proud of you, Paul. Dude, you're a stud. That's incredible. Well done. Because if you have the savings muscle to save up$350 ,000, that tells me you're going to build massive wealth. And so this debt is just a little, you know, it's an ankle biter at this point for him. That's right. That's right.

2:04:25Just get rid of it. Get rid of it. That truck drives different when it doesn't have a payment attached. And you can never be underwater on a paid for truck. That's the beautiful thing. Yes. Not having that payment. That is a controversial Ramsey principle is paying cash for investment real estate. It usually shuts down. It's like we're dream killers. I know. Like, Rachel, can I get a property? I want to be an investor and I want to have an Airbnb. And we're like, do you have money? To do that? No, I can do a nothing down program I found on TikTok. I bought a course from Jared and he's never trusted Jared with a course.

2:04:56It's so true. But again, our plan is not about, well, what is the fastest way to get a bunch of money quick? Yeah. You have to factor in risk. You have to factor in your own mental and emotional health. When you have that payment, you have to make every month and it has to work out and you have to get it booked on the Airbnb and you have to have a tenant. You have to have a buyer for that spec home. Or it's coming out of your pocket. And then the whole thing is just like. And then there's a job loss or a spouse wants to stay at home or there's a health issue. Life happens. That's the thing. When everything's going perfectly, sure, on paper, you might be able to make it work.

2:05:28But we plan for the things that are unplanned. Yes, because if or when life happens and all your plans go up in smoke, then that's where the stress in life comes, right? And so if we can be avoiding that for, yeah, maybe not making the risky big moves, but over time, just like Lonnie, we talked to, you know, our baby subs millionaire over time. It works. That's the thing. Slow and low. Yes, it is. You got to be a crockpot in a world full of microwaves. And that is so difficult because our world is moving so fast. And if you just go on social media, you're like, I'm behind. It's too late. I need to do 17 things.

2:06:05Why don't I own 10 Airbnbs by the time I'm 30? I'm a total failure. That's how it feels if you just start scrolling the internet. And so you've got to unplug, get the blinders on going, I'm going to build wealth with peace instead of risk. That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books. Remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.