Normal Money Habits Don’t Build Wealth

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10:19Dave Ramsey:George, we're going cruising, man. I was just looking at the photos from the last one, and it got me hyped again. Oh, man. That was a fun trip. The Ramsey live like no one else. Cruise is a blast. We take over the entire ship. Only Ramsey people on there doing Baby Step 4 and beyond. If you're in Baby Steps 1, 2, and 3, you're getting out of debt, do not come. But if you're out of debt, everything but your house, you're moved from intense to intentional. That's when we've always told you to go on vacation and live like no one else. So that's why we call it the live like no one else cruise. So it's a whole bunch of like minded people all working on the same kind of stuff, thinking the same way, doing the world's largest debt free scream.

11:03Dave Ramsey:George is going to be doing nerd events on investing. I'm going to help. We're going to do some wealth planning sessions. And Rachel will be speaking. Jade will be speaking. Deloney will be speaking. Y 'all are going to do Smart Money Happy Hour. That's right. Live shows.

11:18George Kamel:Podcasts live. Maybe even live Ramsey show. We'll see.

11:20Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Oh, look at that. That could happen. Who knows?

11:23George Kamel:Some Deloney After Dark. That was a hit last time.

11:26Dave Ramsey:It was past my bedtime. Deloney's always after dark.

11:28George Kamel:But people stayed up for that one. That was fun. It really is a blast. They're the friendliest, nicest, most generous people. Even the crew on the boat was like, who are these people?

11:37Dave Ramsey:Yeah. We love them. So official, you have our permission and encouragement to join us March 14th through the 21st. We're going to go Western Caribbean, which is Jamaica, Grand Cayman, Bahamas, Cozumel. It's a great itinerary. It's on a great ship. It's on Holland America, which is one of the top-end, high-end ships. This is not the cheap stuff. This is the good stuff. Dave don't do Walmart on the seas, I'll just tell you. I don't do that. That stuff makes me gag. So, no, this is like good food, good service, good people. You're going to like the whole thing. And, wow, they just put up a picture of the ship.

12:14Dave Ramsey:It's nice. There's going to be like 2 ,500 of us on there. There wasn't the last one that sold out. This one will be sold out. It's not yet. March 14 through 21 coming up. And, y 'all, it's after Labor Day. This is going to be here in 20 seconds. We had a blast. We had so much fun. We did pop-up. We'd just be walking along, and a stage was empty, and a couple of us would get up there and start answering questions and hanging out with y 'all. We ended up having dinner with a bunch of you. We ended up doing all these things on the stage. We had church services that blew up. They were fabulous. You couldn't get in.

12:48Dave Ramsey:And that's on top of all the normal cruise entertainment, which was fantastic. Yeah.

12:51George Kamel:So we brought our own thing to it.

12:53Dave Ramsey:Yeah, all their stuff is there, too. If you're bored, that's your fault. Yeah, it's, well, yeah, for sure. We just had a blast. Sharon and I will be there. All the Ramsey personalities will be there. Natalie Grant, absolute incredible Christian artist, will be our musical guest and others as well. So you just don't want to miss this. It's going to be incredible. If you're Baby Step 4 and beyond, be there. If you're not, you shouldn't be there. You need to be working on your stuff. We're not hypocrites. So RamseySolutions.com slash events or click the link in the show notes. Stacey is in Des Moines.

13:28Dave Ramsey:Hi, Stacey. How are you?

13:31George Kamel:Good. How are you guys?

13:32Dave Ramsey:Better than we deserve. What's up?

13:36George Kamel:So I just kind of wanted to talk with you guys about how do we stop living paycheck to paycheck when it seems like every time we turn around, something's wrong and we have to spend money. So to give you a little bit more context on that, my husband had to have an urgent tonsillectomy back in January of this year. Before that, we had our emergency fund, but we had to use part of that to pay for a surgeon or else they wouldn't do the surgery. Fast forward to April, we finally got our emergency back up to$1 ,000. And then my son had to get tubes put in his ears because he gets recurrent ear infections.

14:16George Kamel:So again, same thing with that. We had to take out of the emergency fund because we just couldn't afford it. And in our eyes, it was for his health. I mean, he's not even two yet. That kind of trumps everything, taking care of my baby. So then it felt like we were doing good. And then our car, one of our cars, the brakes went bad on it. We had to replace the brakes, the rotors. That was just$1 ,200. And it seems like every time we take a step forward, we take two steps back. Okay.

14:49Dave Ramsey:Do you have health insurance? We do. Okay. So why would a surgeon with health insurance require prepayment?

14:57George Kamel:I honestly don't know. They did it for my son's tube surgery as well. And we went, we even contacted another surgeon to make sure, like, it wasn't just this one clinic. And they said the same thing. We had to pay 50 % up front. And then we could do a payment on the other one. And that's just for the surgeon. That wasn't even for, like, the hospital. You don't pay for the surgeon.

15:19Dave Ramsey:The insurance pays for the surgeon.

15:24George Kamel:I don't know. That's just what they told me. Yeah.

15:27Dave Ramsey:Well, maybe you just quit taking everybody's opinion about stuff and find out what the flip's really going on. Maybe that's the emergency. I have health insurance. It pays for surgeons. What's wrong with you people? Now, if they're talking about out of your deductible that you need to pay your deductible up front or something, that wouldn't be unusual. And that could be the$1 ,000. And the surgeon should be way more than$2 ,000 for a tonsillectomy. And the tubes should be way more than$1 ,000, too. So in all cases, insurance did kick in.

15:59George Kamel:Sorry, it was out of the deductible.

16:00Dave Ramsey:Yeah, it did kick in at some point. But you've got to take control of these situations and make sure you understand and you're telling people what to do instead of them telling you what to do. And that helps in a lot of these cases, particularly the medical community, because some of them are just straight-up financially stupid. I agree. And they will take you places you don't want to go, okay? So you've got to plug in and understand why these charges are there before they occur. I don't think you've been ripped off. It doesn't sound like it. It sounds like you just had a run of things coming at you.

16:36Dave Ramsey:So I don't think you have a choice. You just keep doing what you're doing, and eventually you're going to get the other side of some of these emergencies. The brake rotors were not an emergency. They were a recurring repair. Brakes go out, and car repairs happen.

16:52George Kamel:I just didn't know about it.

16:53Dave Ramsey:Do what?

16:55George Kamel:yeah they apparently they were bad for a while and i just kind of kept putting it off that

17:01Dave Ramsey:squeaking thing you ignored yeah yeah that that's what happens and then that makes it like twice as expensive when you don't go get it done before you get into the rotors and so yep but just know

17:12George Kamel:that this is normal when you are broke it's hard to have good luck and when you've got that emergency fund all of a sudden you start having less emergencies because you start taking care of things, you're ahead of things, you're proactive instead of reactive. So this is a normal part of the journey. Now, all these things at once, it sounds like the universe is against you, but just know those are in the past. We're not going to have another tonsillectomy. We're not going to need more tubes put in. The brake rotors are fixed. So now let's get ahead of this thing and move even faster so that we can stay ahead instead of moving tubes two steps back, like you said.

17:41Dave Ramsey:Yeah. And what if all these three things had happened and you had no money because you were living like you used to live yeah you'd really been screwed then so thank god you're on a plan because it limited the damage it did to your life it just damaged your plan and gave you an emotional setback i keep having to start over i keep having to start over but george is right that is normal and the more you work on this and the more debt you get rid of the more room you have in your budget and the faster you're able to go back to baby step three and finish the emergency fund, the faster you're going to see these emergencies evaporate.

18:18Dave Ramsey:George, I'll tell you that our experience with working with thousands and thousands of families, including my own, is exactly what you said. Thing one is you get more room in the budget. And so a$500 item used to be an emergency. And now there's that much room in the budget. So it's no longer an emergency. So what qualifies as an emergency starts to go down. Thing two is you get ahead of things like preventative maintenance. on your heating and air system. You come out and have it checked once a year instead of waiting on the whole thing to freaking blow up. Or you have the car checked as soon as you hear a squeak and you fix it before the brake pads are worn out and you get into the rotors.

18:57Dave Ramsey:And you keep your oil changed. And you have a sinking fund for things that happen. And you start to have money set aside for this and money set aside for that, and you have an emergency fund. And so once we got to the room in the budget and the fully funded emergency fund, I don't know if we've ever touched the emergency fund again.

19:15George Kamel:You just cash flow the ones that do come your way.

19:17Dave Ramsey:I think we've cash flowed the things that came up after that. And so that's the future. But for right now, Stacey's still in it to win it. And she can push through. That's right.

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21:31Dave Ramsey:Alyssa is in Phoenix. Hi, Alyssa. How are you?

21:35George Kamel:Good. How are you?

21:36Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

21:40George Kamel:So I just need a little bit of direction with how we can get back on track. Long story short, there was a point where my husband and I were debt-free and we purchased a home. Then we went back into the, I guess, cycle of getting back into debt. So the last few years, we have been trying to kind of catch up to that on top of some medical expenses that have come up throughout that time. And most recently, we just had a baby. So that kind of added more to the medical expense. So trying to figure out what should we prioritize when it comes to debt and how do we organize our finances that way. I'm curious, when you guys bought this house, were you debt-free with an emergency fund?

22:27George Kamel:We actually had leftover money. We both sold each property that we owned. And we did like a 20 % down payment. We had like a leftover like$15 ,000. and then it just kind of went away in less than six months. We didn't really manage it properly. Okay. I'm trying to figure out why you guys backslid because I don't want it to happen again even if we get out of this pile of debt. So lay out the debts that you guys currently have. So currently we have about$26 ,000 in credit cards and then two vehicle loans, one that we're almost done with at$2 ,500 and another at$20 ,000 that we just purchased. and then about$60 ,000 in student loans.

23:11Dave Ramsey:I don't think you're going to get out of debt because I think you like debt. I think you like buying stuff you can't afford. You just went out and bought$26 ,000 worth of crap on plastic after you bought a house, went through$15 ,000, and bought two cars.

23:26George Kamel:And added$60 ,000 in two loans? And then tell me you want to get out of debt.

23:28Dave Ramsey:You don't want to get out of debt. You love it. Hey, perspective does change once you do have a child. Oh, now we're going to be a grown-up. Okay. Yes. Touche. I will take that one.

23:42George Kamel:I will take that one. Good answer. Okay. So were the student loans there before all this? Because you said you were debt-free. So did you add the student loans into the mix after the house? Yes. No, actually, that was before the house. So I kind of did it. So you weren't debt-free. Close. I'm not trying to do a gotcha. I'm just trying to get the full picture. I've already done the gotcha. Dave's there.

24:02Dave Ramsey:That's my job. Okay.

24:04George Kamel:What's your household income? So I bring in about$6 ,000 a month, and then my husband, it varies since he's like his own boss in a way. So he's a contractor, and it can vary anywhere between$2 ,000 to$6 ,000 per month for him, but it's variable.

24:22Dave Ramsey:Okay. What does he make most months?

24:25George Kamel:Most months, I would say at least six months out of the year, he would make anywhere between maybe$4 ,000 and$5 ,000.

24:30Dave Ramsey:Okay. Good. I like that. Okay, so you're making$10 ,000 a month, and you had a baby, and you want to clean this mess up. Good for you.

24:39George Kamel:Yes. And then set up maybe a future for a baby because we're not necessarily spring chickens. We are about in our 30s, late 30s, early 40s.

24:48Dave Ramsey:Yeah, you're ancient. Yeah.

24:51George Kamel:I just heard Dave's feelings.

24:53Dave Ramsey:Yeah. All right. I'm sorry. It's okay.

24:55George Kamel:Dave's a winter chicken, I guess, at that point. But the key is here, if you want to set your kids up, you've got to set yourselves up first. You know, when you get on that airplane, they say, put your own mask on first because you can't help anybody if you're out for the down for the count. So you have to clean this debt up before you save a dime for that child. And there's plenty of time to build wealth for that child and change that family tree.

25:16Dave Ramsey:No reason to panic. We have a new perspective. I think you're going to be OK. List your debts smallest to largest. Get on a budget. Never go out to eat again until you're 100 percent debt free, except your house. never go on vacation again until you're 100 % debt free except your house. All of the whining you're getting ready to do when I said that you just need to look at your little baby and say now I'm a grown-up I have to take care of this baby and so I have to sacrifice living like I'm in Congress and spending money I don't have. You're broke and you need to clean up the freaking mess and you need to concentrate on it like it matters because it does and then you promise yourself and each other that if anyone mentions debt in this house, we're going to punch each other.

26:01Dave Ramsey:Never again. You can't wander back into debt again. Okay, if you go through all this struggle and this sacrifice to get out, and it's going to be hard, but if you're making$10 ,000 a month with the debt you gave me, you can be debt-free in a year, year and a half. But you're not doing nothing else. Beans and rice, rice and beans, and whatever you were going to spend on the nursery that the little kid doesn't even know is there, you can't spend. They have a place to sleep. Shut up. You need to get out of debt. Cut up the credit cards, too, tonight. Have you got them with you?

26:36George Kamel:No, we already got rid of those. So we've been working on those a couple months.

26:40Dave Ramsey:Where did they go when you got rid of them? You chop them up?

26:44George Kamel:Chop them up in the trash.

26:45Dave Ramsey:Okay, good. Good, okay, good. Because being in the freezer doesn't count. Chopping them up is the only way they're gone. And then you get in attack mode. What's your smallest debt out of all the debts you're talking about you listed? You got$2 ,500 on a car,$2 ,000 on a car. You got$2 ,600 in miscellaneous credit cards. Give me your smallest credit card.

27:06George Kamel:About$1 ,600.

27:07Dave Ramsey:Good. I want you to do that next month. Should be gone.

27:11George Kamel:Do you guys have$1 ,000 saved right now? Yes.

27:14Dave Ramsey:How much do you have saved?

27:17George Kamel:We got about$2 ,000 saved right now.

27:19Dave Ramsey:Okay. Well, then what's your next smallest debt after the$1 ,600?

27:25George Kamel:I would probably say the car, just looking at my list. The$2 ,500? The vehicle that we're almost, the$2 ,500 car, yeah.

27:31Dave Ramsey:That's excellent. Okay. So that's gone next month because the$1 ,000 is coming out of this account, and$600 is coming out of your checking account, paying off the credit card tonight. That's your smallest debt. And then we're going to attack the car next month, and it should be gone next month.

27:44George Kamel:That's two payments you just freed up.

27:46Dave Ramsey:And every time you do that, you're going to feel like, I can do this. I can do this. Because you can do this. But it's just a matter of focus. and you just say the future of our family tree. We want to change our family tree. We now have a noble motivation. As you said, perspective has changed. Well, lean into that, kiddo. You can do it. And here's the thing. If you add up what you're paying out in payments, not counting your house payment, if you just put that in a mutual fund from your age until retirement, you're going to be a multimillionaire. That's how aggravating what you've done is. So you've got to undo it and get your life back.

28:23Dave Ramsey:And when you do that, you're going to win with millions of dollars. I mean, these two car payments alone will be millions of dollars at their age. But you never borrow again, ever.

28:38George Kamel:Which means we don't own a credit card anymore. We freeze our credit. We have no access to it.

28:43Dave Ramsey:The next time someone says something about a car, you just go, oh, well, we've got one. When we have the money to buy a better one, we will buy a better one with cash, or we will not buy a better one. Once I understood how much the car payment is worth, if I'm 30 to 65, I decided I'd ride a bicycle if I had another car payment.

29:03George Kamel:Because that car isn't costing you$40 ,000. It's costing you$4 million over your lifetime of not investing that payment. And most people go, must be nice, Dave, to be able to invest$500. And I go, what's your car payment? They go,$550. I go, oh, okay. Looks like you just prioritized your car.

29:18Dave Ramsey:Must be nice to invest$500 a month in something that's going down in value. well, that's dumb. Welcome to America. So the rule is this. If you want to be normal, it's easy to be normal in America. It's two car payments, a student loan, and credit cards you can't afford, and you're looking at your baby wondering how they're going to go to college. That's normal. In order to be wealthy in America, you have to be unusual. You have to be weird. So be weird. Don't be normal. Normal sucks. That's everybody, not just you, Alyssa. That's all of us. And so, as a matter of fact, on most things in life, you can say that.

30:01Dave Ramsey:Figure out what everyone else is doing and look at their results. You're like, I don't think I want to look like that. I'm not eating that. I don't think I want a marriage that looks like that. I'm not going to treat my wife that way. I don't think I want my children to act that way, So my children aren't going to act that way. I mean, it's a weird thing, you know, but I mean, unusual is a good thing in a culture that's lost its dadgum mind. So yeah, be weird. Be weird. Be weird in everything. Success is weird. Normal is not successful. Normal is just, I got by and it's okay and I've kind of made it through and that's not successful though.

30:43Dave Ramsey:If you're successful, you're weird, but you did the hard things to become successful. And the hard things are what we just told Alyssa to do. And I think she might do it, George. I have hope. I was kind of picking on her there. It was kind of fun. And good for her. She came back at me. I like it.

30:56George Kamel:That's what it takes. That's why she called you.

30:57Dave Ramsey:Zippy. That's good.

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32:47Dave Ramsey:Zach is in Chattanooga. Hi, Zach. How are you? Good. How are you guys? Better than we deserve. What's up?

32:55George Kamel:I am a young business owner with a young business that's starting to bring in more money than I expected it would. Yay. Right? And I'm wondering, how do I know what to allocate towards my business versus what to keep and invest in myself?

33:17Dave Ramsey:That's a great question. You've got to do a little bit of forecasting, and that's not anything complicated. Just look into the future. What kind of business are you in?

33:27George Kamel:I sell used jewelry online. So silver and gold jewelry mainly.

33:32Dave Ramsey:Okay. And what are you making? What's your income per month?

33:35George Kamel:um last month it was seven thousand profit and then the month before is five thousand and that's profit that includes the cost of the item yep that's profit after item costs uh

33:50Dave Ramsey:shipping costs okay so if you made if you sold seven thousand dollars worth of profit what was

33:55George Kamel:the total sale price of everything so last month i did twelve thousand revenue okay a seven k profit

34:02Dave Ramsey:Okay, so you're doubling your money on what you put into the product when you can find it. Correct. Okay, so you buy something for$5 ,000 and you're selling it for$12 ,000. Correct. Okay, so when you sell it for$12 ,000, obviously you don't take$12 ,000 home. You've got to put$5 ,000 back out there to do it again. Yes. That's your minimum. Okay. And then you can look at it and say, if I want to go a little bit more, do I want to go$7 ,000 and increase my inventory? As long as I'm making a profit on the inventory every time, we can have a gradual thing to increase the inventory. What I've always done and what I've recommended to small business owners is to use a percentage and say, okay, I made$7 ,000 of profit.

34:48Dave Ramsey:20 % would be$1 ,400. 30 % would be$2 ,100. dollars. So if we said something like, I'm going to take 30 % of my profits plus my cost of goods sold. In other words, you take 12 ,000 minus the five plus 30 % of your profit would be another two. You follow me? Yeah. And put that in and I'm taking everything else home. And then you're always raising your inventory. You're going up all the time, pretty dramatically, actually, if this continues. What you're probably going to run into, though, is finding cheap inventory that you can make that kind of margin on. You may not be able to do that at$70 ,000, but you can do it at$7 ,000, right?

35:35George Kamel:Mm-hmm.

35:36Dave Ramsey:And so, but anyway, until you hit that curve, until you hit a point of diminishing returns, I'd run just a percentage of it on reinvesting and take everything else home.

35:46George Kamel:Okay. Okay. Because that was my biggest worry was, like, am I investing too much of my money back into inventory right now?

35:56Dave Ramsey:Only if you're buying inventory that doesn't sell. That's true. How much is sitting out there right now?

36:03George Kamel:I have about$30 ,000 in potential revenue. Okay.

36:09Dave Ramsey:In revenue. And so the inventory cost on that is about$15 ,000 or$14 ,000, right? Yeah, give or take. Like, the margins are pretty... How old is some of that inventory? What's your turn rate on it?

36:23George Kamel:I don't know. I think my oldest piece of inventory is less than a year.

36:28Dave Ramsey:That's a long time in that world. Yeah. Yeah. You got too much tied up in that one. You wouldn't buy that one again. You don't buy that one again, right? Correct, yeah. And that's what I was kind of wondering, too.

36:40George Kamel:Should I, like, because it's precious metal, should I just take, like, all that old inventory and just go melt it?

36:47Dave Ramsey:Whichever way you can get the most money for it the fastest. If you just either discount it and sell it or melt it, which way do I get the most money? But I wouldn't be sitting on stuff for a year in your world. About a 90-day turn rate, you need to be in and out of that stuff. And you need to very carefully be a nerd, analytical, about what types of inventory are not turning and stay away from that like the plague.

37:09George Kamel:Because you might think I can get a deal on this and I can flip it for a double. But if it sits for a year, that's a bad deal. Now your fund's gone.

37:16Dave Ramsey:Yeah.

37:17George Kamel:It's wrapped up money.

37:18Dave Ramsey:Exactly. It's just sitting there waiting to be melted. And so, yeah, that's the thing. So you're not going to get burned on it, but the trick is the churn rate or the flip rate of your money, your inventory turnover rate. That's where your money is. I mean, so if you can do this every single month, if you could do it on a 30-day rotation and make the margins you made on 12 over 7 or 12 over 5, then um that's incredible margins but when you start holding stuff for a year those margins

37:51George Kamel:start to disappear average margin starts to go it starts to go way down yeah and so you've got

37:56Dave Ramsey:to you got to hit you got to you know you got to pick hits and not b-sides so um that's what we're looking for and get that stuff rolled over that's a cool question zach and congratulations it sounds like you're doing really well if you never even grow it you're making pretty good money That's not bad at all. And, you know, it didn't cost you a lot to start up, just some of your initial priming of the pump, so to speak. So, hey, I'm going to give you a copy of the latest bestseller I did called Building a Business You Love, and it'll help you with some of the other questions you're going to have as you grow this.

38:28Dave Ramsey:Trevor's in Orlando. Hi, Trevor. How are you doing? Better than I deserve. What's up? So I'm currently living with my parents.

38:38George Kamel:I just actually paid off my last student loan today. Congratulations. Thank you. You're a free man. Finally. And I'm trying to figure out if it's worth me staying here for a little bit to get my emergency fund up and then go renting an apartment. Or should I get my emergency fund up and then save for a house? How old are you? I'm 34. How much do you make? I make about$71 ,000 a year. Cool. How long would it take to save up a full emergency fund with very little expenses? Six months even while living at home? What do you make? I'm sorry? What do you make? So I bring home$5 ,700 a month.

39:26Dave Ramsey:Where the flip is all that going?

39:30George Kamel:So it's been paying off debt up until now. So every two weeks, I'm married. I have three kids. Oh, wow. They live with me.

39:41Dave Ramsey:Wait a minute. Stop, stop, stop. Okay. You're 34. You make$71 ,000 a year, and you're married and have two kids or three kids? Three kids. Three kids. And you live with your parents. Yes, sir. Why? So I didn't always live with my parents. I'm guessing that, yeah.

40:01George Kamel:I'm sitting, and I decided that I needed a career change, so I quit my job, moved in with my parents, so I go to school full-time. I'm now a nurse. And so they were nice enough to let me stay here while I got through school.

40:17Dave Ramsey:That's a good story. I like that story, and I like where you got to. You ended up being a great nurse, and now you need to go out and have a life again, my son. It's time to leave Mommy's house. Yes. Go, go, go, go, go, go, go. Get an apartment now.

40:31George Kamel:Okay. What's an apartment going to cost you in your area?

40:36Dave Ramsey:I can get a townhouse for about just under$1 ,500 a month. Perfect. Great. Does your wife work outside the home? No, she's a stay-at-home mom. Okay. When was the last time she worked outside the home? Back in 19. What does she do then? She was a receptionist for an ophthalmologist. Okay. I want her to find a side hustle that she can do from home while taking care of her kids to add some money to this equation so you guys can save up a really big down payment really quickly and get out of that apartment. Sweet. Oh, and by the way, you're a nurse. You passed your bars? Yeah, so I'm a registered nurse.

41:16Dave Ramsey:I've been doing this for a little over a year now. Oh, man, you can make so much money. But you're going to be working all the time. All the time. I mean, you can pick up ER shifts on the weekend on triple time.

41:26George Kamel:Yeah, I'm actually still going to school.

41:29Dave Ramsey:I have to go back for my bachelor's, so I'm doing that right now as well. Why? It's a contract with the hospital. Your bachelor's is a contract with the hospital?

41:39George Kamel:Yeah, when I signed on, it's a requirement to get it within three years. Oh, okay.

41:45Dave Ramsey:And you can work overtime because nursing is everywhere. There's a shortage. You can make all so much money as a nurse. our inn is a it's a you can write your ticket man it's like unlimited money wonderful place and you don't have to work your like that the rest of your life but if you want to get out of that apartment and get out of mama's house and get just get all this stuff in your rear view mirror it's all the things we did in the past in order to win the more you work the faster you do that and so if i'm in your shoes i'm busting it and mama's got a side hustle she's doing from home with the kids and we're stacking cash in the corner and we're gonna get us a house but go get an apartment this week

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43:51Dave Ramsey:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. George Campbell is my co-host today. Lisa is in Arkansas. Hi, Lisa. How are you?

44:01George Kamel:Good. How are you?

44:02Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

44:05George Kamel:So I had a question about budgeting. My husband and I have been married for two years, yet we have a separate bank account. I was wondering how I could get my husband on the same board of budgeting. Okay.

44:21Dave Ramsey:Why do you have separate bank accounts?

44:26George Kamel:That's the tough problem. If we combined our money, he would spend 80 % of it. He's not a type of person to budget, I guess. So I'm just trying to ask for advice on that. Okay.

44:46Dave Ramsey:I'm confused about where all this is going. So you're afraid he's going to spend all the money, but you want to combine the accounts. Right.

44:58George Kamel:So he has investments. He invests about 80 % of his money towards cards, specifically Pokemon, since that is kind of one of his topics that he likes to work on and stuff.

45:13Dave Ramsey:Yeah. How old is this man?

45:16George Kamel:He's around 35, and I am 27, so there's about seven, eight years apart.

45:22Dave Ramsey:And how does he invest 80 % of what he makes? What do you all live on? We actually work at a company that is very beneficial to us, where they pay for all the housing, utilities, even the car that we drive, and they pay for gas weekly. And what is the job?

45:42George Kamel:uh we work at a real estate company and we work in fixed houses and i work in the office

45:50Dave Ramsey:and so you don't have a housing expense you don't have one car expense but uh you still have to eat and other things and he spends 80 percent of his money on

46:01George Kamel:pokemon cards and he's 36 yes sir um sounds like a 14 year old kind of yeah how much in pokemon cards does he have um oh goodness um his portfolio is 33 000 and how long has he been doing this uh for two years so since you've been married and probably before you were married this was his thing and he went hey this is my thing you don't get to tell me what to do this is my money it kind of started when we got married we went to a store like like weeks after our marriage and we just got a 10 because we were just curious. We, yeah.

46:43Dave Ramsey:This makes me, this makes me very sad for both of you. Because it sounds very juvenile. And you're giggling about it. So it makes me sad too. But you guys, and have you, have you said to him, We need to be grown-ups and start investing in grown-up things, and we need to actually combine our money and start being humans and all adults and that kind of stuff. What does he say when you have these discussions?

47:18George Kamel:So I'm the person who actually sits down and budgets everything. I have made lists and everything multiple times.

47:27Dave Ramsey:No, that wasn't what I asked. I asked when you had a conversation with him, what does he say?

47:33George Kamel:Oh, he agrees. No, he didn't. He agrees verbally, but maybe throws in like$100 or$2 maybe every other month. Now, this changes today.

47:45Dave Ramsey:Your entire paycheck goes into our checking account. My entire paycheck goes into our checking account. And the two of us sit down today, and we decide where our money is going to go. Spoiler alert. Pokemon cards are on the list.

48:00George Kamel:I agree. How's that conversation sound? I've actually tried that conversation at least three times and have asked friends to encourage him to help me with this.

48:13Dave Ramsey:You need marriage counseling.

48:16George Kamel:I agree.

48:17Dave Ramsey:He's addicted to this card game. You need to go get on the phone and talk to your church and talk to your pastor and set up a marriage counseling session. If he won't go, go by yourself because you've married poorly. and this guy has, you know, the only chance that you guys stay together is that he starts a process by which he becomes an adult. An adult looks at their wife and says, you are my primary concern. A wife adult looks at her husband and says, you are my primary concern, not my juvenile habit of buying Pokemon cards. That's way down the freaking list of things to do. okay and um it's not an investment and it's not a portfolio it's a habit and um so i mean this is the same people call me in the old days and said you know we're collecting beanie babies because that princess die beanie baby's gonna be worth something someday yeah and so um we actually got out my son who's 35 we found his pokemon cards from his 12 year old days the other day Might be sitting on a gold mine.

49:25Dave Ramsey:He had a portfolio when he was 12. Wow.

49:28George Kamel:What an astute investor he was.

49:30Dave Ramsey:And now his four-year-old has a portfolio and plays with them, which is the appropriate thing to do with$50 Pokemon cards. Because he looked them up to make sure there wasn't a$50 ,000 one in there. And there wasn't. Just for the fun of it. And there wasn't. Because that's how this kind of thing works. Okay? It's all bull crap. And so the chances of you being in the collectibles business and actually making good money, whether it's baseball cards, Pokemon cards, gold coins, rare coins, art, all of these things that you think you know something about, most people don't. And most people simply break even at best.

50:07Dave Ramsey:Beanie Babies are not an investment for your kid's college fund. That's a statement I made 30 years ago, and it has been proven to be very true. the only thing that good baby beanie babies are good for these days are for the dog to play with it came in with princess die in its mouth the other day so there you go and that was the one that was supposed to be worth ten thousand dollars and the dog's very happy to carry it around the

50:29George Kamel:house we had a call of an 18 year old who had six hundred thousand dollars worth of pokemon cards and so john deloney and i took this call and i told him dude was it real or was that a troll i I mean, these people exist. They're claiming it was real.

50:43Dave Ramsey:Kelly, the producer, is saying it's real.

50:45George Kamel:But we clipped it, and the subculture of Pokemon people came after us, saying - No way. You got the horse people and the Pokemon people after you. And the Bitcoin people.

50:52Dave Ramsey:And the Bitcoin people.

50:53George Kamel:They're all cut from the same cloth, which is, this is an investment. You can't tell me otherwise, and you don't understand it. You haven't studied it enough. Look at the track record of Pokemon over time, and it's better than the S &P 500. Oh, my God. It's insufferable. So I realized I got right there in the mud with the pig, and I got dirty, and the pig liked it.

51:12Dave Ramsey:Yeah, that's it. It was a losing battle. Well, so here's the thing. You call here for help, and we're going to give you the help that is time-proven and time-honored. And the number of millionaires that I met became millionaires due to Pokemon cards is really close to the number zero, like it's there, zero. and so and I've met millions and thousands tens of thousands of millionaires and I've met hundreds of billionaires and not a single Pokemon billionaire have I run into not a one except maybe the guy that invented the whole thing he might be a billionaire the team

51:47George Kamel:behind Pokemon's crushing it because they understand the game they understand they know scarcity selling to her Lisa's husband that's the game target demographic used to be children Now it's children and adults.

52:00Dave Ramsey:Now it's children. I mean, he's still got the Star Wars action figure collectibles, too. That might be worth something. No, George, no.

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54:10George Kamel:Today's question comes from Hudson in Connecticut. I'm getting married soon and we're negotiating a prenup. My fiancé has over six figures in student loan debt and the agreement would make me responsible for those loans once we're married, even requiring me to continue paying the remaining balance if we were to divorce. In exchange, we've agreed that the assets I bring into the marriage will remain completely separate. Is this a fair trade-off? Should I be willing to take on her premarital debt in exchange for protecting my premarital assets, or are we setting up a marriage where we're keeping score instead of truly becoming financial partners?

54:45George Kamel:Well, there's some self-awareness here, so that's good. The last line is the most helpful line. Yeah, nothing about this sounds romantic. I mean, you're saying I'll pay off your debts. I don't know what your assets are, if we're talking millions and millions in real estate or 50 grand in a checking account. So it's hard to know exactly where this tradeoff is. Or what the balance is on the student loan. Yeah, it just says over six figures. But here's how I see it. Once you're married, it's our debt. You pay off the debt. The assets are our assets. We build wealth from there. That's how I've seen couples win with money.

55:18George Kamel:I've never seen it where it's tit for tat and they go, well, this was mine from before, so I'm keeping my house. I think that is a losing game in the long run unless there's a huge discrepancy where you're coming in with millions and millions and she's got nothing.

55:30Dave Ramsey:Okay. Let's use some pretend figures and try to address an actual tactical thing here. Okay. Let's pretend that he has$2 million in mutual funds and she has$100 ,000 in student loan debt. Okay.

55:49Dave Ramsey:Okay, if I were in that situation on either side, I would not have approached this as we are negotiating a prenup. That's a bad phrase to use with your fiance. Okay, it's I want to design something that makes us both feel great about our future. That's not negotiating a prenup. This is not a business transaction. You've reduced it down to that. The phrasing you're using, the words you're using are really scary. And as you said in your last sentence, I'm keeping score. So if I woke up in that situation, George, the prenup would simply read that I have$2 million in mutual funds, and if we get divorced, we split everything beyond$2 million, and I get$2 million.

56:39Dave Ramsey:And the day we're married, I'm going to pay off the student loan. period and then we don't have to worry about that would be simpler you're not on the hook for the student loan if you have substantial assets and she has well over a hundred thousand dollars in student loan debt you write a check the day after the honeymoon and you pay cash you pay off her student loan it's done so it doesn't need to be part of the prenup you can state that in the prenup if you want that's upon return from the honeymoon who will write a check that day and pay off the student loan but that's just a practical thing and because when you took her on dude you took on a hundred thousand dollars in student loan debt and if she's not worth that then you're very transactional and you need to walk away from the whole thing period that's the way i feel about it what are you thinking when you're seeing this i mean

57:26George Kamel:yeah we've seen couples who go hey this is scary and then we've seen the ones who go you know what i loved her and i wanted to marry her regardless of how much debt it was and i I knew there was going to be a little bit of a mountain to climb and it would take me back a couple steps to use my savings to knock out the debt. But it was all worth it. Those are the marriages that I see that will win. I go, that's a couple that's going to stick together. So it's not to say that this marriage can't work. But I think starting off on this foot makes me go, how much else are we going to keep separate?

57:53Dave Ramsey:Yeah, even requiring me to continue paying the remaining balance if we were to divorce, which there would not be a remaining balance in my scenario because you've got substantial assets. You pay it off immediately. You don't pay off student loan. You don't keep it like it's a freaking pet. We destroy the thing immediately. Sally Mae is an ugly old woman with a wart on her nose. Get her out of the house. You do not want her in your house. You do not want a spare bedroom for this chick. She's not family. And she's evil. She's from the government. And anybody that's from the government is not here to help.

58:28Dave Ramsey:So there you go. This is how this works. But I think you guys have deeper problems in your relationship based on the way this is written.

58:38George Kamel:Yeah, regardless of the numbers, the phrasing makes it seem like. It's really creepy. You're walking in with arms up, with a shield up.

58:45Dave Ramsey:Yeah. If my daughter was on the receiving end of this, I would tell her to run away from you. Because everything with you is going to. Not into your arms. Everything is going to be a transaction with you, Hudson, is what it sounds like, based on this letter. Now, I may be over-reading it, but the way this is worded is creepy. Jeremy's in Little Rock. Hi, Jeremy. How are you? Doing fine, Dave. George, how are y 'all doing this blessed afternoon? Better than we deserve, sir. How about you?

59:16George Kamel:Y 'all doing well, by God's grace. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Just a five-second back story. I have many flaws.

59:23Dave Ramsey:My wife will back me up on that. But one of my biggest flaws is the fear of running out.

59:28George Kamel:You pick it, I'm scared of running out. So with that said, my wife and I have IRAs and a brokerage account. And last week we had the privilege of attending you and George's Investing Essentials, and we have watched and re-watched and re-watched that thing.

59:51Dave Ramsey:Wow, thank you.

59:51George Kamel:We really enjoyed it. Thank you. Yes, sir. And long story short, our mutual fund, our IRAs, our brokerage account for years has just been sitting in money market.

1:00:02Dave Ramsey:Wow.

1:00:03George Kamel:Why? Yeah, we've matched inflation, but that's all it's done. What spooked you to the sidelines? Was it ever invested? No. No, it's just been in mutual funds. I believe the world's been shaved by a drunk barber, and I'm always here to...

1:00:25George Kamel:Chicken Little is my nickname. Okay. Yes, but after watching the Investing Essentials, we've got peace, and we're ready to move on into the four categories of the mutual funds.

1:00:37Dave Ramsey:Good. Okay.

1:00:38George Kamel:Okay. So we have met with a smart investor pro. I'm not ignorant in all this. So my wife and I, even before the first night was over, jumped on the website that holds our IRAs. And we found four good categories that equal 12.45 % with mutual funds that date back to 1981.

1:01:06Dave Ramsey:Good. Okay. Well done. We told you you could do it.

1:01:10George Kamel:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, so my question basically comes down to I think I'm looking for a nickel when it's raining$20 bills. We don't feel comfortable giving five figures to a SmartVestor Pro when we can do this ourself. But when we called – I'll just go ahead and say it. When we call Vanguard, who holds the IRAs, they have a subcompany called Ascensus who holds the SEP and the Simples. That's what we have, SEP and Simples. And they don't offer the mutual funds that we want to invest that match up with y 'all's teachings. Charles Schwab, who owns our brokerage account, will offer those, but they have what we call a transaction fee.

1:01:59George Kamel:Yep. Yep. So what's y 'all's opinion on paying the transaction fee if everything lines up with what we learned in the investing essentials?

1:02:10Dave Ramsey:I would use a SmartVestor Pro instead and pay the management fee that is there, that's part of it. And that's what I do, by the way, and what George does. And the reason is that you've got somebody in your corner. you're DIYing it with personal customized advice while you DIY it. Right now, you just walked out into the wild, and you found three mutual funds in the woods that work. But there's a lot of trees in those woods. And so there's 8 ,000 mutual funds. I know a lot about this, and I don't go through all 8 ,000 to pick mine. I don't want to spend my time doing that. I want my guy to look at it, and I have found that what little I pay them is worth every penny.

1:03:01George Kamel:You've lost way more on the sidelines. The stock market doubled in the last five years. So if that money was sitting in the money market, trust me.

1:03:07Dave Ramsey:Yeah, he's ready to go, though. He's ready to get in. So now let's get him in. Let's trust the guy who can do it. I wouldn't just, you know, Vanguard's great. Charles Schwab, I'm not mad at Charles Schwab. I personally would get somebody in my corner that I can sit down and talk to that regularly is looking at this with me to give me good, strong advice.

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1:05:04Dave Ramsey:Well, we wish we could get to every call and every question here on the show. But if you have money questions and you want an answer for your situation, you can head over to our website, use Ask Ramsey, because it's hard to get in here sometimes. Ask Ramsey is our free AI tool that is built and trained on proven Ramsey principles. No junk from the internet in this tool. It's all from stuff we've answered here on the show, stuff we've answered in our books. All the books are dumped into the data set. All the articles, thousands of articles that we've written on the website are all in the data set.

1:05:36Dave Ramsey:And that's how you're going to get a very, very Ramsey answer. Clean data, clean results.

1:05:40George Kamel:That's exactly how it works.

1:05:42Dave Ramsey:Ask your question today at RamseySolutions.com. Ask Ramsey's a free service or click the link in the description if you're listening on podcast or YouTube. Mary is with us in Youngstown, Ohio. Hi, Mary. How are you?

1:05:56George Kamel:Hi, guys. I'm doing really well. How are you?

1:05:58Dave Ramsey:Better than we deserve. What's up?

1:06:01George Kamel:So I had a quick question. Is it okay to invest more than 15 % of your income into retirement?

1:06:10Dave Ramsey:is your home paid off?

1:06:14George Kamel:I'm 28 years old actually today, but I still live at home and I have no debt.

1:06:20Dave Ramsey:Happy birthday. Thank you. You don't own a home is what you're saying.

1:06:27George Kamel:Exactly, yeah.

1:06:28Dave Ramsey:So, yeah, you can invest anything you want to. At some point you may want to own a home, so any investing you're doing above the 15%, I might go to something just like an S &P 500. a brokerage account, and let it grow for a down payment on a house.

1:06:43George Kamel:So earmark that as down payment fund.

1:06:46Dave Ramsey:Instead of retirement.

1:06:48George Kamel:Okay.

1:06:49Dave Ramsey:Because someday you're probably going to move out and buy a house, I hope.

1:06:52George Kamel:Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's definitely in the plans. I actually just talked to my financial advisor, who's Ramsey approved, and I am maxing out my 401k at 6%, and I was maxing out my Roth IRA, But with both of those together, it came to 23%. So I was wondering if I needed to cut back in one of the expenses. It's not the end of the world.

1:07:15Dave Ramsey:I just want you to save for a down payment, too.

1:07:18George Kamel:Yeah.

1:07:19Dave Ramsey:That's all. And I want you to get out and get on your own.

1:07:22George Kamel:Yeah, what do you make? Currently, I make$45 ,000.

1:07:27Dave Ramsey:Okay. And you're maxing out 401k? You're 28 years old and you live at home?

1:07:32George Kamel:Yes.

1:07:33Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Okay. you're not maxing out your 401k at$45 ,000.

1:07:41George Kamel:No.

1:07:41Dave Ramsey:You're putting up to the match.

1:07:46George Kamel:But you're saying between that 6 % in the 401k and then maxing out a Roth IRA, it's equivalent to 23 % of your income. Yeah, that makes sense. Got it.

1:07:54Dave Ramsey:So you took the match and then you went and did a Roth. That's good. I like that. Very smart. Yeah, good work. Well done. And yes, I would move out and start my adult life. You're 28. It's time to do it.

1:08:04George Kamel:Even if you need to get a couple of roommates.

1:08:06Dave Ramsey:Yeah, it's good. It's good. It's an important part of the adult process. And, yeah, you can live and start to save for your down payment and that kind of stuff. Yes, very good. Tyler is in Houston. Hi, Tyler. How are you?

1:08:22George Kamel:Good. How are you all doing?

1:08:24Dave Ramsey:Better than we deserve. What's up?

1:08:27George Kamel:Man, I am 21. I work at a dealership selling cars and I make probably around 160. And I just got married about two months ago. I'm running into the idea that I worked before we met and we got married. I worked about 80 hours a week. Now I probably worked about 65. And it just seems that I'm running into I want to spend a little bit more time with her and we be able to do things. But that would mean moving jobs and not making as much money. And I think it's hard because this is pretty much my real big boy job, first one, and it's doing very well. So are you working?

1:09:07Dave Ramsey:What days and hours are you working?

1:09:11George Kamel:It is pretty much, I just started taking Tuesdays off since we got married, but it is Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, pretty much 8 to 8.

1:09:21Dave Ramsey:Okay, so you have Sunday and Tuesday off.

1:09:24George Kamel:Yes, sir.

1:09:25Dave Ramsey:And you're working 12-hour days. five, six days, five days a week. And that's 60 hours. Okay. All right. And how long have you been married? Three months. Okay.

1:09:45Dave Ramsey:Hi. You can do what you want to do, and the two of you can decide. There's no right or wrong or moral answer here. you called us and my wife grew up on a farm and they milked cows and planted tobacco and so hard work is like her middle name so the chances of her telling me I need to work less ever in my life has been zero so I'm having a little bit of trouble figuring out how to process this because even now, when I turn 60, I start taking Fridays off and she's like, what are you doing here? Go over there to the office and do something. So I kind of have the opposite problem on my end that you have after 45 years of marriage.

1:10:41And so I don't think 60

1:10:45Dave Ramsey:hours is the end of the world. I will tell you that I know a lot of very, very successful people that have built wonderful marriages, children, lives, businesses, and none of them did it on 40-hour weeks.

1:11:02Dave Ramsey:I can promise you my average through my working lifetime has been more like 60. And many, many weeks there were 80. And so, you know, because I run my own business, and that's the world's worst boss. That guy will drive you into the dirt, you know? So the problem is I'm trying to be authentic with you, Tyler, and say that my answer would be skewed because of who I am and because of the facts I just gave you. So I think you're fine at 60 hours. If you told me you were working seven days a week, 12 hours a day, which would put you at 80-something hours, then, yeah, you'd probably need to do something different for your new marriage.

1:11:48Dave Ramsey:That's true. But married couples have had wonderful lives in first years on 60-hour weeks.

1:11:56George Kamel:Sometimes it makes the marriage better.

1:11:58Dave Ramsey:Most of human history.

1:11:59George Kamel:Absence can make the heart grow fonder.

1:12:01Dave Ramsey:It's – but, I mean, you're at home at 8 o 'clock. I mean, you know. There's seasons in situations. It isn't like your bedtime is 9 o 'clock.

1:12:11George Kamel:And if you guys have intense financial goals, this might be a season. And eventually you might go, I need something a little bit more flexible or less days or whatever it is, less hours to where it's 40, 45 hours. But for now. It's up to y 'all. Nothing's on fire.

1:12:24Dave Ramsey:There's a tradeoff. But I just.

1:12:26George Kamel:Doesn't sound like he's burnt out either.

1:12:27Dave Ramsey:No, he just wants to spend time with his new wife. And that's a nice thing. That's sweet. And she wants that. That's nice. And so I wish more of the couples that called here wanted that. You know, it was like, you know, most of them that call here go, how do I get my husband to work more? So it's the other way around. But, yeah, I think you're a great guy, and I think she's a great gal, and I think you ought to work it out. There's not a wrong answer. If you choose to do something different, you didn't do something wrong. If you choose to stay there and say, when I come home at 8 o 'clock, we are not going to turn on Netflix.

1:13:07Dave Ramsey:We're going to spend time together. Watching the same television show together is not spending time together. Turn off the television and put your phone up and no doom scrolling. Neither one of you have a phone in your hand or a computer, and neither one of you have Netflix. And that's a Sunday rule, a Tuesday rule, and an 8 p.m. on rule. And then you're going to find plenty of time.

1:13:30George Kamel:It sounds like you just don't like Dancing with the Stars, Dave. That's it. I think you're just anti-streaming shows. and...

1:13:37Dave Ramsey:Dancing with the stars is your best representation of binge watching? That's it. Why can't you come up with something cool? That's all I'm aware of. Like binge watch Reacher or something like that. Oh, there we go. More manly. Binge watch something that matters. More gunfire. Not dancing with the stars. George.

1:13:55George Kamel:I was trying to relate to you. I thought for sure Sharon forces you to sit down and watch Dancing with the Stars. You know Sharon better

1:14:01Dave Ramsey:than that. I don't know what she's into these days. Sharon would take my man card away if I watch Dancing with the Stars.

1:14:08George Kamel:I'm just saying, I thought you might be on it one day. There's still time, guys. Vote for Dave Ramsey on Dancing with the Stars. And we might have a real hit on our hands.

1:14:17Dave Ramsey:Here we go. Just keep it right here, Dave. You ready? Keep it tight. Keep it tight.

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1:16:07Dave Ramsey:Richard's in San Antonio. Hey, Richard, what's up? Hi, how are you? Great, man. How can we help? My question is, basically, I'm paycheck to paycheck, and I'm drowning, so I just don't know how to get out of it.

1:16:24George Kamel:So I guess that's the question, what do I do?

1:16:26Dave Ramsey:Okay. So why are you paycheck to paycheck, and why are you drowning?

1:16:32George Kamel:So my wife and I have been together about 10 years. We have combined student loan debt of about$900K to a million. Our income was until recently around$200K a year, but I was recently laid off, so now it's cut in half.

1:16:52Dave Ramsey:What are your degrees, man?

1:16:55George Kamel:We're both practicing attorneys. So I just started taking cases on my own just to bring something in. But we always get to the same point whenever we discuss bills. She wants to pay all the bills whenever we have like a bill meeting. And I want to save something because I know once we bill the bills for that time period or billing period, we end up with nothing left. so I just walk around like feeling like a fraud most of the time and uh you know I'm scared to be invited to any type of dinner or event because I'm just looking at the dollar sign calculating do I have enough for this do I have enough for that um and that's been our life for uh you know

1:17:47Dave Ramsey:Why are two attorneys only making$100 ,000 a year each?

1:17:53George Kamel:So we were both nonprofit attorneys.

1:17:57Dave Ramsey:Why, if you have$900 ,000 in student loan debt, did you take that stupid job? The plan was that if you do that for a certain amount of time,

1:18:11George Kamel:you can get the student loans forgiven if you work in that nonprofit sector.

1:18:17Dave Ramsey:Yeah, not true, because it's not happened for very many people. 5 % of the people get through that gauntlet, 95 % don't. So you've been underpaid by$150 ,000 to$200 ,000 a year for years to try to get through a few hundred thousand in student loan debt. Yeah.

1:18:38George Kamel:So where are you guys at in that process?

1:18:40Dave Ramsey:He's now opened his own firm, right?

1:18:44George Kamel:Yeah, I basically just started...

1:18:48Dave Ramsey:But you're not working for nonprofit rates anymore, but she still is. Correct, correct. What I make, what I charge is completely hours or mine.

1:18:57George Kamel:What was the original balance of these student loans?

1:19:02Dave Ramsey:It was around$300 each, but then I think it ballooned to around the$450 plus. How long ago did you pass the bar?

1:19:13George Kamel:It's been about 11 years.

1:19:17Dave Ramsey:So they were not forgiven?

1:19:23George Kamel:I initially worked in private, so I only did about six to seven in the nonprofit. What about your wife? She's about at eight with the nonprofit.

1:19:38Dave Ramsey:So she worked in a private as well for a while?

1:19:41George Kamel:A little bit, yeah.

1:19:43Dave Ramsey:All right. Well, our experience is that very few people get those loans forgiven under that program. It's a – the program is full of holes and problems and loopholes. So we meet a whole lot of disillusioned people after working 10 years for substandard wages in service to the community and then don't get their loans forgiven. So I don't have a lot of hope in that. And, of course, you've started the clock over now, so yours is not relevant. So what would I do if I woke up in your shoes? I would make student loan reduction my primary goal. Therefore, my income, highest possible income, even if it's in a less than ideal situation, I want to make the most possible money for a short period of time and really jack your incomes way up and live on nothing, beans and rice, rice and beans, and attack these student loans with a vengeance.

1:20:46Dave Ramsey:And no, you don't need to be going to a dinner party. If somebody invites you, you say, I have a million dollars in student loan debt. I can't go. And that's what we're working on. And so it's job one. You got one job. It's that. And you guys get your incomes up as high as you can and your expenses down as low as you can. Now, as far as being able to eat and so forth, you've pulled that off for a decade. So you haven't thrown all the money at the student loans and then got to the end of the month and had no food. That's not what you're saying. But, no, you don't need to be saving money. You need to be getting these debts cleaned up.

1:21:22Dave Ramsey:But you guys have not been aggressive on this because you've not been aggressive on your incomes.

1:21:28George Kamel:Correct.

1:21:28Dave Ramsey:You aren't making a ton of money. I mean, a couple hundred thousand is good money, but it's not good money if you owe a million.

1:21:36Dave Ramsey:Yeah, I mean, it doesn't feel that way. No, it doesn't. It doesn't do it. It doesn't move the needle much. It moves it, but not enough to where you don't feel stuck. You felt like a rat in a wheel for a long time.

1:21:46George Kamel:And the math's against you. Unless you're paying more than the interest in principle, that thing's just going to move up and up and up.

1:21:51Dave Ramsey:Yeah.

1:21:51George Kamel:So you've got to get ahead of it by just throwing tens of thousands at this thing every month.

1:21:55Dave Ramsey:Yeah.

1:21:56George Kamel:That's what it's going to take.

1:21:57Dave Ramsey:Yeah. I need you making a couple hundred each minimum and as soon as possible and preferably 250 each or 300 each, 80 hours a week, and you just work until you're blind. But you can clear this up in three or four years if you do that. But if not, you're going to be sitting here 10 years from now still looking at this thing. You're going to have to do something pretty dramatic with the math. But if you take$900 ,000 and you start throwing$200 ,000,$300 ,000 at it a year,$300 ,000 in a year, it's done in three years. But that means you're making, between the two of you,$400 ,000 and living on$100 ,000.

1:22:34Dave Ramsey:Not counting taxes, which means you're living on nothing. Yes. And that's where I'm trying to get you to. Throw$300 ,000 a year at it and be done in three years. That's$25 ,000 a month, not$25 ,000 a year, which is what you've been doing because you've not even moved the needle. So I've got great hope, but it's all, you know, we call it the shovel and hole thing, Richard. The hole that you're in is$900. Your shovel is your income. You've got a huge hole and a small shovel. I'm telling you, get a new shovel. And the hole gets filled up a lot faster then. And I need$300 ,000 a year above my living expenses and taxes to throw it$900 ,000, and then I'm done in approximately three years.

1:23:20Dave Ramsey:and but otherwise if you just say it out loud it takes your breath away I have a million dollars and so I can't breathe I can't think everything revolves around this but if you have a clear cut plan you're making 200 each 250 each or 250 and 150 and you start and we're knocking this thing out in three years you got great hope your energy level is going to come up the scales are going to fall away from your eyes or your depression is going to slip away. Your effectiveness as an attorney is going to be better and everything else. But right now that it's hard to see anything because you've got this huge concrete wall in front of your nose and it just it blocks your vision for your life.

1:24:03Dave Ramsey:And I'm it's sad, man. I'm so sorry. I'm not fussing at you. I'm fussing with you. But you gave up the opportunity to make no money when you took on all this loan. You have to going to make as much money as possible now, as soon as possible. And the more money you make, obviously, the faster you're going to get out. And you know what I'm talking about. And it's going to be a lot of hours. It's going to be a lot of sacrifice. And you're going to put up with some stuff you don't want to put up with. You're going to be working at a firm that you don't necessarily love everything about it. Whoop-dee-doop-dee.

1:24:37Dave Ramsey:I don't like anything about my life right now. I need to change something. And you need to change a bunch of stuff right now.

1:24:44George Kamel:Yeah, the conversation needs to change from, are we going to pay the bills first or save first? It is. We need to get our income way up and keep our expenses down to nothing so that we have that margin. And you can do this math on paper and go, okay, how much are we willing to work? We're both going to work 80 hours a week for the next three, four years and knock this thing out because we've been doing this for a decade and the number went up. So what we've been doing isn't working. We got to try a different plan. And the debt snowball, like you mentioned, staring down 900 grand will take your breath away.

1:25:10George Kamel:But if you focus on the smallest debt and just go, that's the enemy right there. That's the villain. You have hope to fight the next one and the next one. That's what it's going to take.

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1:26:58Dave Ramsey:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. George Campbell, Ramsey personality, is my co-host today. Randy is in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Hi, Randy. How are you? I'm good. How are you doing? I enjoy your show. Thank you. And I enjoy your app. It is amazing. Well, thank you. Thank you. Glad every dollar was a blessing to you. How can we help today?

1:27:23George Kamel:Going through a major remodel at the house and trying to keep my friality from causing strife with my wife. I've never really spent any money on myself for 61 years, and now we're spending a lot of money. I'm just trying to maintain.

1:27:44Dave Ramsey:How far into the project are you?

1:27:47George Kamel:Three days. What's the cost of it total? Our budget with contractor, new appliances, new furniture, furnishings, so forth, is$550 ,000.

1:28:00Dave Ramsey:Wow. So we have line item budget, and we've agreed to the amounts. Where would your frugality kick in? As long as she stays under the amount agreed to, are we okay? Yeah, and I've allowed a 10 % change order fee with the contractor.

1:28:19George Kamel:I mean, that's typical in today's world. I was a contractor myself at one time.

1:28:23Dave Ramsey:That's true, but we really shouldn't need any change orders, except on this discussion you and I are having, she's got a piece of furniture she wants to buy, and your frugality is causing an argument, but why would that be so if the piece of furniture is within the budget that you have both agreed to before you started the project? Well, that's just it. I'm hoping we can stay within the budget. No, not hopefully, but this is how we start a project. We both sit down and agree to the numbers. Yes.

1:28:52George Kamel:Are you worried that it's going to go way out of scope, or are you just seeing this money leave your bank now, you're going, oh gosh, I regret agreeing to this. A little bit of everything. It's just a very good project.

1:29:05Dave Ramsey:Okay, so give me an example of where you think there might be an argument.

1:29:11George Kamel:Going into the flooring, give me the price, first quarter foot, to make sure we stay within budget.

1:29:16Dave Ramsey:And I want to make sure we're not getting the highest-end flooring there is. No, I meant... The middle of the road should be good. I don't care if it's highest-end or not, as long as it's in the budget. you've agreed to the budget is this you're not allowed to whine as long as it's within budget

1:29:32George Kamel:yes sir is there an actual spreadsheet that says flooring with a line item with the amount we're

1:29:36Dave Ramsey:going to allocate to that yes that's how a budget that's how a project like that the budget should be developed that way yeah so if you've agreed to it you should have all that angst behind you if she's agreed to it then she's agreed to stay within that so we were building a house a while back and the flooring came in, just to use your example, the decorator and my wife picked flooring when they had their wonderful day at the flooring place. And it was$42 ,000 over the budget. And I'm like, what were y 'all smoking? We had a budget. And everyone agreed to the budget ahead of time, including the decorator, until they went to the dadgum flooring store.

1:30:20Dave Ramsey:And they're like, well, you know, we picked out this thing for the basement for the downstairs. And I'm like, four people will be down there per year. No.

1:30:29George Kamel:Doesn't need to be the Taj Mahal down there.

1:30:31Dave Ramsey:No, we're going to put the cheapest crap in the basement so you can put the nice stuff upstairs where we are every day. You spend your money where you're going to be. And so that's me reigning the decorator in, which meant I had to reign my wife in. But that's not even frugality. That's just sticking to the agreement. Yes, sir. and that's the way the whole thing goes down. I'm in the middle of one of these renovations right now with a house, and I'm going through the exact same thing, but this is the fifth time we've done it, built a custom house or done a large renovation, and so Sharon and I have got this dialed in now.

1:31:05Dave Ramsey:We don't yell at each other anymore. The first one, we almost killed each other, so we had to learn to preset it and agree to it. Now, think about this before you agree to it because you're going to sign this in blood. You're sticking to this, and when you and the little decorator have your moment, then you're going to have another moment with me because we're not doing it. And then if you do all that, you can come back and go, oh, wait, we got savings over here. If you want to upgrade that one door thingy, let's do it. And you can loosen up and be sure you spend all the money somewhere that you've agreed to spend.

1:31:40Dave Ramsey:And it makes it feel like you're being very generous.

1:31:45True. Yeah.

1:31:47Dave Ramsey:So I guess there's just a lot of anxiety on my part being And this is just the very beginning, the first week of it. Yeah, and you've never done this. So I think that if the budget is correct, if it's realistic, I mean, if you put$4 in for lighting and it's going to be$4 ,000, that's a problem, right? Yes, sir. But if the budget is realistic and you're comfortable that it's a good number where your wife and you can have a nice property when this is completed, because by God, you've earned it, both of you, then you get comfortable with that. That'll lower your anxiety. Then the second thing you've got to get comfortable with is her commitment to this agreement.

1:32:28Dave Ramsey:And here's how I would phrase it if I were you. I've been in this exact seat. Except it's not frugality with me. It's sticking the freaking plan with me. I'm not really that frugal. Sharon is more naturally frugal. But I'm just with once there's a plan, you got to stick to it. I lose my mind. So but here's how I learned to do it. Honey, I can stand back and watch you enjoy these purchases if I'm comfortable that you're going to do the purchases within the numbers that we've talked about. promise me you're going to stay no matter who says what no matter which of your friends show up or the decorator shows up or anybody that's going to negatively influence your brain that no matter what happens you're going to continue to use your brain and you're going to stick with the numbers that we agreed to if you can promise me that and you do it i'm gonna and i'm gonna celebrate cheap randy is going to celebrate these large purchases with you my wife sounds perfect and uh it gives you the up but if you're comfortable she's going to stick to it and that the number is realistic because if she comes back and the number is not realistic then she's got a case and that's a change order right right and so and that's going to happen in a 550 000 project you're right 10 you're going to be off 50 grand you probably underprice some things and maybe overprice some other things absolutely absolutely there's going to be something that blows up in the thing.

1:33:56Dave Ramsey:It's not going to come in. But the last house we built, we did it within 3 % of budget, and it was two months early. Because we managed to the blueprint, we managed to the schedule, and we managed to the budget. And everybody on the team knew that Dave is going to be wonderful to work with, and the money's going to keep flowing, and I'm going to be smiling and happy as long as we manage to the schedule, the blueprint, and the freaking budget. And if you get off of any of those things, you're not going to like me because my whole job is to keep all of you people on those three things. You're going to build it to blueprint, to specs.

1:34:34Dave Ramsey:You're going to build it to budget and within the allowances that we set in the budget. And and and guess what? I didn't even have one episode in that last house. I made whole 14 months. I didn't have a single episode. We had lots of decisions to make things to change. We made a concession here, raised something there, lowered something there, but we're within 3 % of budget when we get done.

1:34:55George Kamel:It's a Swiss train at this point. It's on time.

1:34:58Dave Ramsey:We're going to do it. On budget. I mean, and that's how you build a house, and that's how you build a project like this. But, Randy, I can completely relate. It's one of the biggest. That's why I tell young couples just getting married, don't build a house. You really got to be married a while before you can survive building a house together.

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1:36:15George Kamel:That's ramsysolutions.com slash real estate.

1:36:39Dave Ramsey:If you're sick and tired of working hard but have nothing to show for it, you need to try a new plan. We can show you how to get out of debt, build wealth using the baby steps, and the best way to do that is the EveryDollar budgeting app, which is going to help you find extra money, build you a personalized plan, and guide you, hold your hand, to do the Ramsey steps. In just 15 minutes, you're going to find thousands in hidden margin, and you'll feel like you got a raise. Don't live normal when you can live like no one else. Start EveryDollar for free in the App Store or Google Play. Stephanie is in Salt Lake City, Utah.

1:37:15Dave Ramsey:Hi, Stephanie. How are you?

1:37:17George Kamel:Hi, Dave. Better than I deserve. How are you?

1:37:20Dave Ramsey:Just the same. How can I help?

1:37:22George Kamel:Wonderful. First of all, I'm a huge fan of your show and of your books, and it's a pleasure to be here on the show, so thanks for having me.

1:37:30Dave Ramsey:We're honored.

1:37:31George Kamel:I do have a two-part question for you. I'm just going to hit you with it, and then I'd love for you to take it away and tell me what you think. My husband and I, I like to think we're in a good spot financially. We only have a mortgage and our savings account is growing weekly. We both put 15 % into our Roth 401ks. And we were approached recently and told about IUL accounts. And it was feeling like a cool, unique opportunity at first. But then the more we've thought about it and kind of taken a step back, it kind of just feels like a scam. They're kind of pushy about it. So we wanted to know what you recommend.

1:38:06George Kamel:And then the second part to that is that we are about to be a one-income household. as we have our first baby on the way, and I'll be staying home to raise our kids. So we also just wanted to know how to adjust our retirement goals or how we're saving for retirement when it's just a single-income household. Okay. Well, we can start with that last one. The easiest answer is you invest 15 % of whatever your household income is until the mortgage is paid off. So if it gets cut in half, you're investing 15 % of that. Now the question is, can you live off that one income? yes okay great good good for you wonderful thank you so let's talk about indexed universal life insurance i'm guessing this is somebody that you know or someone a friend of a friend that pushed this on you yeah it was um our estate um attorney he actually helped us set up our state and everything was great and then he was like hey by the way i want to tell you about iul accounts and kind of transition.

1:39:07George Kamel:You got an insurance agent as an estate attorney, which is scary. Okay. So they're selling you this insurance as a quote, I'm putting this in huge air quotes, a wealth building tool. And it's just a permanent life insurance policy with cash value and it's indexed to the S &P 500 generally. So you don't actually own any stock, but the gains are tied to the stock market. And here's what they tell you. Let me guess what the pitch was. You'll get market gains with no downside risk. You get tax-free income. right? Yeah. These are the things they pitch you. Here's what they're not telling you. The agent gets paid almost your entire first year's premium and commission.

1:39:46George Kamel:Now do you know why they're so pushy about this? Yeah. So they get huge commissions. A third of your money vanishes before you even get to see any of it. Their returns are terrible, like 3 % after all these fees. And they cap, they say, hey, there's no downside. We'll cap it at 0%. So you can't lose money, quote unquote. What they don't really tell you is that they also cap the gains. The stock market did 25 % in 2024 and 2025. Guess what? You didn't make 25 % on that money because they capped it at 10. So you are way better off investing on your own versus giving this person 500 bucks a month for the rest of your life to get 3 % returns.

1:40:24George Kamel:Just put in a high yield savings account at that point and run away from this person. I wouldn't use them as an attorney anymore.

1:40:30Dave Ramsey:I'm serious. The attorney's not actually selling them policy. They referred you to someone, right?

1:40:35George Kamel:Well, they just recently started working with these. So it's through Transamerica, the company. So you've got an insurance agent that has an attorney on staff.

1:40:47Dave Ramsey:Yeah.

1:40:48George Kamel:Yeah. Yeah, you need a different.

1:40:50Dave Ramsey:It's sad. So, yeah, the product is absolutely horrendous. It's a horrible product. It's not technically a scam, but it's basically the payday lender of the middle class. It's not technically a scam, but it's just so bad that it feels like a scam. And that's why they're so stinking pushy, because they make so much on it. And if your estate planning attorney is willing to give you bad advice like this on this, what else are they giving you bad advice on? That's what scares me.

1:41:23George Kamel:They're probably pushing trusts on you that you don't need at that point.

1:41:25Dave Ramsey:Yeah, you're going to have$5 ,000 to develop this trust that you don't need. Um, and so I think I'm looking for a new estate planning attorney and I'm going to run away from this insurance agent at high speed. Okay.

1:41:40George Kamel:Do you guys have term life? Oh, sorry. Um, no. Well, I do term my company, but whereas I'm about to, you know, quit there, I need to, we both need it. Yeah. You need your own policies, not tied to your employers, 10 to 12 times your annual income. And if you stay home, you still need at least a half million dollar policy on you.

1:41:59Dave Ramsey:So go to Zander Insurance and get your term life in place. And if you're going to do investing, you do that with a real investment advisor, not an insurance agent. And insurance agents are not investment advisors. They pose as it quite often when they're selling this crap. But that's what this is. It's crap.

1:42:17George Kamel:So what you do is you get that term life insurance. It's going to be a fraction of the cost, like a tenth of the cost of this whole life deal. And then with all the extra margin you now have because you didn't invest in this terrible insurance product, you can use that to build wealth and that's part of your 15%. So any extra money, let's start chunking it towards the mortgage or to the kids college funds and you guys can build wealth without any of these terrible products.

1:42:39Dave Ramsey:So you know from the baby steps, right? That baby step four, you put 15 % of your income into retirement. Five is kids college and six is with any other money, we reduce the mortgage, right?

1:42:50George Kamel:Correct.

1:42:51Dave Ramsey:Okay. It's not, there's no baby step that says with any other money, we do other investments, IUL included. Okay. So there's not, there's not a place for this anyway. I'm not giving you a replacement investment option. Instead, whatever money you would have put toward this, I would put towards your mortgage and get a good SmartVestor Pro for your investment advice that actually is an actual financial advisor. They're not an insurance agent. And, um, you know, get with Xander, get your term insurance in place and And then live on that one income. And you're going to be great. So, hey, and by the way, congratulations.

1:43:31Dave Ramsey:You have a good nose. You smelled a snake. And you went, snake, snake alert. I think there's a snake here. I'm going to call somebody and see if this is a snake. Oh, it's a snake. We didn't get bit because we recognize snakes. Yeah, that's good for you.

1:43:45George Kamel:You should get the call when someone says, hey, I got bit by a snake.

1:43:47Dave Ramsey:I want to trust you. You know, if I'm you, you should feel confident in your own sense of smelling for snakes because you smelled that one out beautifully. Well done.

1:43:59George Kamel:And usually if someone approached you, I would run. That's just a general take. You should be in control of the financial decisions you're making. Purse snatchers approach you. Exactly. He approached me in a dark alleyway and told me about this great investment opportunity.

1:44:13Dave Ramsey:You get mugged when you get approached.

1:44:15George Kamel:I don't trust anyone approaching me. Respect my personal space and boundaries, please.

1:44:21Dave Ramsey:Hey, I've got an opportunity for you. Translation, my friend just joined a multi-level. Yes.

1:44:29George Kamel:And I always know it's someone they know. It's not a random thing. It's always a family friend told me about this and I trusted them. Or my estate attorney said I can trust this person. I never heard the estate planning angle. That's different. That's interesting. I wonder if they're getting a kickback off of this.

1:44:43Dave Ramsey:Usually there's a filet mignon at the local steakhouse involved.

1:44:46George Kamel:Yeah. Yeah. That's for the annuities.

1:44:48Dave Ramsey:That's when you get a nice dinner. Well, you can get the IULs with that too. And even you can get infinite banking with that. The whole life, you can get all that.

1:44:55George Kamel:I'm tempted to sign up, similar to signing up for a timeshare presentation. Kind of sad.

1:44:59Dave Ramsey:I saw O 'Charlie's closed up today. Oh. And so I don't know where they're going to hold these filet dinners now. They're going to have to switch over. Get a cheap filet and get sold on some not so cheap. Where are we going now? Bad insurance investment products. Wow. Over to Shoney's? I'm guessing they closed down too. Whoa, whoa. You just went way off the cliff then. Careful.

1:45:22George Kamel:Personal for Dave. Down boy. Big Shoney's fan.

1:45:24Dave Ramsey:Down boy. Man.

1:45:27George Kamel:That's another good indicator. If you get a piece of mail offering you a free dinner for anything, don't take it. Cook your own steak at home. You'll be better off than sitting through three hours of that.

1:45:37Dave Ramsey:Get a Wagyu and you'll save money. Serious money. Just cook your own Wagyu at home. It's way cheaper than getting ripped off with these people. that's so funny Stephanie trust your instincts you have good instincts

1:46:22Dave Ramsey:Listen, guys, I've heard just about every excuse for why folks think they can't get ahead with money. So let's go ahead and settle this right now. You get the final say on what happens with your money. That's why you have to start telling your money where to go so you can stop wondering where it went. So if you're going to start winning with money, you have to get on a budget. And the easiest way to get started and stick to it is with the EveryDollarBudget app. It'll help you make a plan for every single dollar coming in and every single dollar going out every single month. And guess what? It's free.

1:46:59Dave Ramsey:So no excuses. Download EveryDollar in the App Store or Google Play today.

1:47:21Dave Ramsey:Liz is in Orlando. Hi, Liz. How are you?

1:47:25George Kamel:Good. How about you?

1:47:27Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

1:47:32George Kamel:So, I have a situation where my husband let me know last night that in three weeks, If instead of living in the RV, we're going to be moving into the house that's right next to the RV. It's double what we pay right now. And the only way we're going to be able to afford it is if we move in with his brothers that have proven to be financially irresponsible in the past. and we actually have paid the price for it before. And I have no finances. I'm a stay-at-home mom to an 11-month-old, and I just feel stuck.

1:48:20Dave Ramsey:You're living in an RV.

1:48:23George Kamel:Yeah.

1:48:25Dave Ramsey:Why?

1:48:29George Kamel:So when I came back from trucking, because I was a trucker before this,

1:48:38George Kamel:we didn't have an apartment but we did have enough money to buy an rv and my mother-in-law offered to put the rv right next to their house and it would save us money in the long run which is what i thought but then i listened to some of your shows and i I kind of understand your belief on the RVs. But by the time I made the decision or heard the information, it was too late.

1:49:11Dave Ramsey:How long have you been married?

1:49:17George Kamel:I've been married two years, and before that we were dating for two years.

1:49:24Dave Ramsey:How old are you? I am 24 years old. Where's your family?

1:49:35George Kamel:My family, I don't exactly have my family too close to me right now. They can't really help me.

1:49:47Dave Ramsey:I ask where they are. um uh they're they're in uh kissimmee um pretty close by so you mean relationally they're not able to they're not willing to help you're estranged from them yeah because they're not pleased with who you chose as a husband um no they don't know i don't really tell them anything about my marriage

1:50:18George Kamel:which, well, I never did.

1:50:26George Kamel:But I just, I don't.

1:50:29Dave Ramsey:So you lived with his brothers before?

1:50:33George Kamel:No.

1:50:37So we have a past. When I was trucking, one of his brothers that's going to move in with us,

1:50:50George Kamel:He had ran away from home, and he ended up moving into our apartment. And so we gave him a list of things that he has to pay and rules he has to follow. And I ended up having to pay a whole bunch of tolls and stuff because he was using my car, which I allowed him to do, which was dumb on my end. But I allowed him to use it, and he never paid any of the tolls.

1:51:13Dave Ramsey:How old is your husband?

1:51:16George Kamel:He was 25.

1:51:17Dave Ramsey:And what does he make a year?

1:51:23George Kamel:He makes$23 an hour.

1:51:26Dave Ramsey:Okay. I don't know how much that is per year. Is he working 40 hours?

1:51:31George Kamel:Yes, he works 40 hours. He actually works overtime most of the time.

1:51:36Dave Ramsey:Are you working at all with an 11-month-old?

1:51:39George Kamel:No. Okay. No.

1:51:41Dave Ramsey:That's fine. Okay. Yeah. Well, I don't know how to cause this family that is so messed up to suddenly not be messed up for your sake. I wish I could because I'm kind of scared for you right now.

1:51:58Dave Ramsey:But, you know, your husband gets to decide with the next conversation with you whether he wants you around or not. And so and he may decide negatively. I don't know. but I think you've already decided you're not moving into that house. And so the only question is, is when you guys sell the RV and go get an apartment, is he going to go?

1:52:27George Kamel:I truly don't know.

1:52:28Dave Ramsey:Yeah, I don't either. But I think that's the question he needs to be asked tonight. Do you want to go with me because I'm leaving? I'm not going to stay here in the shadow of your mother and your dysfunctional brothers, and I'm certainly not moving into their house, and we're selling this RV, and we're going to go build a life, a quality life together. And that's the only chance we have, honey. Otherwise, we're going to end up just like them. Look at them. Do you want to be them in 20 years? I don't want to be them in 20 years. I can love them, but I don't want to be them. Yeah. And this is when people change their lives.

1:53:02Dave Ramsey:They change their family tree. They look at the history, and the history is in the rearview mirror, and they develop a future out the windshield. And the rearview mirror is smaller for a reason. Because the future is bright, but only if you're driving away from the mess. And so, which is a pretty good metaphor for a truck driver, right? So, yeah, you know, I'm hoping that your husband's love for his new child and his wife supersedes his love for his dysfunctional mother and brothers. he's trying to figure out a place to put a roof over your head he doesn't know how to do it right and he's getting ready to do it wrong and you know that and that's why you called so you know you you guys are at a turning point and something something dramatic is going to happen and you guys just you need to decide what it you need to decide what it is it doesn't need to happen to you you need to happen to it and if you need some help just call a local church there's wonderful churches all over Orlando, Florida, and tell them you're 24 years old with an 11-month-old, and your husband just kicked you out of the RV and you need some help, and they'll help you.

1:54:15Dave Ramsey:They'll help you get started, and you're going to have to get a job and build a life if he doesn't go with you. But your other choice is move in with the crazies over there, and I don't blame you. I think you're probably on to something there.

1:54:31George Kamel:Yeah.

1:54:32Dave Ramsey:There's no good short-term story here. The best possible short-term story is he says, oh, yes, I want to be with my wife and child, and we're going to load up the clothing out of the RV, and we're going to go get us an apartment. But I don't feel like that's a high-probability answer.

1:54:51George Kamel:Yeah, he says that. I already talked to him about that, And he says that the apartments that currently are$1 ,500 and it would be cheaper either way to live with his brothers.

1:55:08Dave Ramsey:Another option is pick the RV up and move away, 20 miles away, and get a place to park the RV temporarily until you can get it sold and get you an apartment. But you cannot continue down this path because you know what's going to happen. But you can see it and we can see it and we don't even know everybody involved here. It's just sadness. All I hear is sadness.

1:55:30George Kamel:It's all toxic dysfunction and you know you're about to get dragged into it even further. So you need to realize you have agency in this marriage. So far, you haven't had a vote because you haven't given yourself the ability to actually speak up and do something about it. And so for the sake of that baby, create a safe environment that actually you can thrive in. And that might mean some deep sacrifices for now where life looks hard. but I'd rather that than you move along with this move into this house.

1:55:55Dave Ramsey:Yeah, you fast forward the move that you're outlining. It doesn't sound good. And that's why you're calling because you know that. You know, we're not telling you anything you didn't know. You already knew all that, honey. But hey, reach out in the community. Get in touch with a pastor or two in the local area and some of them will help you. I promise you they will. We know a lot of good churches in Orlando, a lot of good people down there that'll help you.

1:56:17George Kamel:Even a good local women's shelter can give you some resources.

1:56:20Dave Ramsey:As a matter of fact, I'll put you on hold. Christian will pick up, and we'll hook you up with some of the pastors we know down there. And we'll get some people in your corner. And that's with him, with your husband or without him. If he wants the help, too, we'll help you guys. We'll see if we get some people around you that love you well.

1:56:50Thank you.

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1:58:08Dave Ramsey:Transcription by CastingWords Because they have a good return for their work. If either of them falls down, one can help the other up. But pity anyone who falls and has no one to help them. Jeff Parnas says about 9-11, When Americans lend a hand to one another, nothing is impossible. We're not about what happened on 9-11. We're about what happened on 9-12. Like that. Yeah. And we're also about what happened on 9-11. I'm not going to forget it. either. I'm not confused about what happened there. And I'm not going to forget that. But also, we want to talk about how we can help and how we can gather around.

1:58:49Dave Ramsey:And the thing that we all wished at the time, and we all knew, all of us that were old especially knew, at the time, was that the unity, all the political divisiveness, all the stuff dropped for a short period of time, everybody was an American. And we knew it wouldn't last. We knew the trash and the filth and nastiness and the crazies on each side would raise up eventually, and they have, and now they're back in full control again. But that moment in time when there was this beautiful unity was something else. I was on the air that day. I remember it was crazy, absolutely crazy. you so um yeah 9-1-1 brings up a lot uh yeah and a lot of you weren't even born at that point and uh wow that's kind of think that's kind of wild to think about 26 years old right yeah i mean it's been 25 years

1:59:49George Kamel:since the yeah the date so i was a in middle school yeah not listening to this show unfortunately I should have been.

1:59:56Dave Ramsey:Yeah, come on, George. What kind of nerd are you if you're not listening to the show in middle school? I mean, that's a certified right there, baby. All right, Laura's in Phoenix. Hi, Laura. What's up?

2:00:08George Kamel:Hi, I hope you're well, and I thank you so much for taking my call. Sure. How can we help? So I am currently$70 ,000 in debt. I just started a new career, and I just found out I'm pregnant with my second child. I just want to know how I can prioritize paying off debt without putting myself in a worse situation.

2:00:35Dave Ramsey:A lot of I and me. Are you married?

2:00:40George Kamel:Yes, but it's complicated. He is not a citizen, so he's currently in his country still with our firstborn. I had just taken him out there since I'm starting my new career until he's able to move out here and join me. When will that be?

2:01:03George Kamel:We're still in the process in the paperwork. It's looking like a projected time. It ranges anywhere from March of next year until as late as August of next year. So how does income work? Is it just your income at this point? Yes, it's just my income at this point. He doesn't work in his own country? He does, but how the money, what do you call it, converts is just not enough. What country is he in? He's in Egypt right now.

2:01:38Dave Ramsey:Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah, so you're waiting on a visa and a green card so that he's legal to earn an income in the United States while he awaits citizenship.

2:01:50George Kamel:So for the purposes of this call, we'll just assume it's you, 70 grand in debt, and just your income trying to pay this off while pregnant.

2:01:57Dave Ramsey:And a baby on the way, yeah.

2:01:58George Kamel:So what do you make in this new career? So I just graduated in accounting, so I just started a new accounting career making$82 ,000 a year. Awesome. Wonderful. So that's double what I was making before. That's great. And what kind of debt's the 70 grand? Oh, okay. So it is$43 ,000 in student loans and about$6 ,280 for credit cards. I took out a title loan, which was so dumb. And that is$3 ,000. And then I have a buy now, pay later loan for$1 ,800. And then there's credit cards and collections that are like a little bit over$15 ,000. 15 grand in collections.

2:02:52Dave Ramsey:Okay. So you're not paying anything on that right now. They're in collections.

2:02:57George Kamel:No, not at all.

2:02:57Dave Ramsey:And you're not paying anything on a student loan right now because it's been in hardship deferral.

2:03:01George Kamel:No, they're in deferral. Yeah, they're in deferral.

2:03:05Dave Ramsey:And so all we're dealing with is$6 ,000 in credit cards, a$2 ,000 buy now, pay later. Buy now, pay later. And that's on the car or on furniture?

2:03:17George Kamel:Sorry, the$3 ,000 title loan for the car.

2:03:20Dave Ramsey:Yeah, okay. So, and are you renting or what?

2:03:27George Kamel:Yes, I'm renting, and my rent is$13.89 per month.

2:03:31Dave Ramsey:Okay, good. Okay, well, I want to make as much progress as I can in the next few weeks before we get too far down into the pregnancy process, okay? And so you've got to get that title loan out. So your first goal is beans and rice, rice and beans, do a written budget, and I want your entire check to go towards just food, rent, and title loan. and I think you can clear that I think you could clear that now I think you can clear that title

2:04:03George Kamel:one loan in one month I think so too um I haven't gotten the first check yet because I just started um about two and a half weeks ago but uh yeah I think that can yeah I mean you should be taking home five grand a month okay yeah three three for the title loan and live on the rest

2:04:22Dave Ramsey:and do nothing else. No investing. No 401ks, no investing, no nothing. Do you have any money in savings?

2:04:31George Kamel:No, I don't.

2:04:32Dave Ramsey:Okay, so we're going to get rid of the Title I, this thing one. And you have a working car that's paid off?

2:04:37George Kamel:Yes. Yeah, my car is totally paid off.

2:04:39Dave Ramsey:Wonderful. Well, get the title back and never do that again. Okay.

2:04:43George Kamel:Okay, yes.

2:04:44Dave Ramsey:And then clear the$1 ,800, buy now, pay now, later the next month.

2:04:48George Kamel:And shut down the account and cut up the credit cards. Because right now we are trying to stop the bleeding and stop us from making any more dumb decisions. Okay. Yeah.

2:04:57Dave Ramsey:And so what I want you to do then is to start, after you pay up the buy now, pay now, and you pay minimums on the credit cards and nothing on the ones in collection, nothing on the student loans, and pay your rent and your food, and I want you to stack cash. You need a war chest for when the baby comes. I want you to have$15 ,000,$20 ,000 by the time the baby comes.

2:05:23George Kamel:And I don't know if you give advice on this, but I'm still in the process of selecting the medical insurance. And there is a high deductible option and the low deductible. And I just didn't know which one to choose because of the amount that would be taken out of my check.

2:05:39Dave Ramsey:I would investigate how they handle maternity in both cases. Ask HR to explain the maternity benefits in the two policies. and you need the most thorough maternity benefits, even if it's the low deductible. You may switch in a couple of years back to the high deductible, but probably you're going to be on the low deductible and get full coverage on this maternity.

2:06:00George Kamel:Okay. So it's not just about lowest premium, it's what's the lowest total out-of-pocket cost to cover me through the pregnancy.

2:06:06Dave Ramsey:Yeah, we're trying to have a baby without hardly any out-of-pocket.

2:06:10George Kamel:Okay.

2:06:11Dave Ramsey:Now, who's going to be around you and help you and take care of you when the baby comes?

2:06:18George Kamel:I haven't figured that out yet. No, that's something we'll start working on. I'm also new to the area.

2:06:23Dave Ramsey:No, you've got to start working on that. Get logged into a local church. Where's your family?

2:06:30George Kamel:I have family that's on the East Coast.

2:06:34Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Mostly. Well, do they know you have a baby on the way?

2:06:38George Kamel:No, I don't want to tell. I haven't told anyone yet. Why? I have a pretty dysfunctional family.

2:06:49Dave Ramsey:Do they know you're married?

2:06:52George Kamel:No. Oh, okay.

2:06:55Dave Ramsey:A lot going on here. Okay.

2:06:57George Kamel:So you've got to create a village from scratch.

2:06:58Dave Ramsey:Yeah, you need to get in touch with a good church, and you need to get church people around you to love you and walk with you through this and give you support. And then you've got to decide, is the baby going to go in daycare after it comes, and you're going to go back to work and continue your wealth building while your husband works on his Visa and green card, probably, it's probably what you're doing. And you probably don't have a lot of options because we can't really lose this great job. That puts us our The Ramsey Show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.

2:07:41you