Quit Letting Dumb Money Decisions Hold You Back

28:17what's that going to turn into let's assume she has that degree today what job is she getting she would basically you know be the person that would draw people's blood in doctor's offices or hospitals and how long does it take her to get that certification uh right now as long as because the the school that she is in is kind of like a pay-as-you-go thing so like i said everything that's not essential to the house i've kind of just stopped Yeah, so right now she's not in school, so why does put her to work right now? Well, she does delivering packages as kind of a contract job, and that helps make up a little bit.

28:56But as far as finding someone to take care of our children, how old are the boys? My youngest will be two on the 19th of this month, and then my oldest is four. Okay, you got littles. Okay, that makes a difference. Yes, sir. All right. So here's the thing. Here's what you want to do. You want to put a deadline on the trailer if you're going to do it. I'm not sure I would do it, but I'm not sure I wouldn't do it. But if I did do it, I don't want to get stuck there. I want to make enough radical changes in our lives that we move away from that time in our life and it's in the rearview mirror forever.

29:32okay um you guys have been through hell and the crummy year that you've had has highlighted for you that living paycheck to paycheck is no way to live it's no fun not at all and so when sharon and i went through going broke we had a never again moment and i want to make sure that you guys you the two of you hold hands tonight and look each other in the face and say Never again. We're going to step into a trailer for$24 ,000 to a maximum of$36 ,000, but never again are we going to be here. We're going to work like crazy people, and we're going to have goals, and we're going to live on less than we make, and we're not buying anything on debt.

30:10Never again are we going to be back here. We're having an emergency fund so that a lousy$10 ,000 doesn't completely stand us on our head. Yes, sir. Because$20 ,000 would change your whole life right now. Yes, sir. That's how quick this could turn. You didn't call me up with$300 ,000. You called me up with$15 ,000. And$3 ,500 gets your current. So you can do this, man. And I'm telling you, you have a good brain. The brain you used to work through this was excellent. I'm proud of you. And you go, now go play through and look back a decade from now and go, that was the time. The year my brother died and they changed my pay, I said, never again.

30:52And that's what Sharon and I did. We look back, we said, never again. 1988, no way I'm reliving that freaking year. There's a bankruptcy filing on the wall right across from me in the office right here. I'm not doing that crap again. Never again.

31:20The holidays can come with a lot of pressure to spend. family, friends, secret Santa at the office, all the things. But y 'all, this season should be about peace, not payments. That's a big reason why I love Fairwinds Credit Union. They share the Ramsey values of helping you reach your money goals without debt. And with the Fairwinds Smart Bundle, Ramsey fans get a no-fee checking account, a high-yield savings to grow your emergency fund, and the exclusive Ramsey Be Weird debit card. It says, debt is normal, be weird right there on the front. So every time you use it, it's a reminder that you're doing your money differently.

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32:40Are you sick and tired of working so hard but having nothing to show for it? Well, that's normal. Problem is normal sucks. Normal's broke. You don't want to be normal. You don't have to live that way. Our EveryDollarBudget app helps you find extra money every month and builds you a personalized plan to beat debt and build wealth. In just 15 minutes, you'll find thousands in hidden margin. You'll feel like you got a raise. Don't live normal when you can live like no one else. Start EveryDollar for free in the App Store or Google Play. Max is in San Antonio. Hey, Max, what's up? Hey, thanks for having me on.

33:18Long time listener. Thank you, sir. How can we help? Well, I'm 58 years old. I've been divorced now for a little over five years. And I've been dating a lady who is 57 and she is a surviving widow.

33:34If we get married before she is 60, she loses all of her surviving spouse Social Security benefits. and he was a big contributor up until he was about 58 years old, so she would receive the max. And I've heard your conversations today with people about getting married and how the chances are of divorce if you don't get married within a certain point of time. We've been dating now for a little over two years, and I was just wondering if it was worth it to get married now and forego that potential$4 ,000 a month for the rest of her life.

34:19What's your household income? Or what's your income? I'm sorry. My income is about$150 ,000 a year. And what's her income? Her income is just living off of what she got, and she's down to a little over$600 ,000. Okay. What's your nest egg? It's money. My nest egg has recovered to just a little over a million in my retirement account, and I have no debt, and I have a paid-for house. It's a little old house here in Texas worth about$400 ,000. Okay. Have you all been discussing marriage prior to this thought pattern here? Sure. Yes, sir. We've been dating for a little over two years and fell in love immediately.

35:03Been talking to both of our parents about it and both of our families. She's got two stepkids, and I have two stepkids. Of course, they're all grown. Everybody loves each other and doing great. That's good. Okay, I'll tell you, you asked a question, and I'll give you a straight answer. Sure. The way I try to do stuff, and Max, you said you're a long-time listener, so you know this. I try to put my—I've never been in your situation. I'm 65, so we're fairly close in age. But if I try to put myself in your position, what would I do if I were in your shoes? And for me, the joy of a lifetime companion that I'm in love with supersedes 48 grand a year.

35:56Sure. And for me, that's called marriage. I'm a person of faith, and that's called marriage. And I don't have any confusion about that at all in my mind or in my spirit either one And for me, I don't want to look at her dad in the eyes Unless I'm saying this is my wife For me And I can't make that be for you You've got to decide that You guys are, you know, you're going to have a net worth of two and a half million dollars or more and a really good household income. And you don't have to have the$48 ,000. It's just a minor thing. And so for me, it's just for$50 ,000, what can I buy? I can buy a marriage license.

36:46And$50 ,000 a year. But, you know. Well, we're trying to take that into account to where we need to retire. since we just found each other late, we're trying to figure that out into retirement. You've got$2.5 million to retire off of. I think you're going to be all right. Well, the way we figure that out, too, is it's not necessarily the$220 ,000 a year. Of course, the broker has to take a fee of 1 % and then it's taxed, and we'd have to get our income up pretty good to have net of what we feel like we'd like to be able to enjoy. Max, which way were you leaning before you called us? Obviously, he didn't want to marry her.

37:31I'm just curious. Oh, no, I do want to. Absolutely want to marry her. I mean, you answered my question with numbers telling me why you shouldn't do it. And that tells me what you want to do. So, no, I mean, you do what you want to do. I'm going to be mad at you either way. We'll still be friends. but um but uh but i personally i i just see a tremendous spiritual relational emotional and even financial value in being married more than 48 grand a year i just do i just think it's valuable and if i were 57 and had met the person i wanted to spend the rest of my life with there's no way I'm letting her freaking get away over some math nerd stuff with my financial planner, you know, trying to figure out, well, I got to pay him 1%.

38:21Who gives a crap? If you don't pay him 1%, don't pay him. But don't lose her either. Well, I think it's really clear for our audience to understand how we view marriage. And no judgment here, but my guess is that they're living together. And so when you've already made that decision, we're living together, fell in love with her early, been dating two years. I'm reading between the lines. It's probably what's going on. So therefore, this is all about a money question. And we're coming at this not from a money answer, not in the situation. It's just the way we see things. Yeah, but here's the other thing.

38:54It does end up being a money thing, especially maybe not in his situation exactly, but as much. But when I'm talking to these 24-year-olds and whatever, and we've been living together for four years. Great. But all the data says when you're 46 that you missed out on hundreds of thousands of dollars for that 24-year-old. So it is math, too. And I've got to think that the marriage advantage plays into this situation, although I can't put my finger on exactly where it will. But I'm thinking it's 50 grand a year easy. The working together, the combining of forces, the combining of how we're going to get at this.

39:36I think it has a monetary value. That would not be my motivation to your point, though. That's all I'm saying. I agree with you. It's not the driving decision. We just happen to have a position that the money plays out as well. In other words, we think this is a moral decision that also has money implications in the positive. And it's not our opinion, by the way. Dave's right. There are tons of studies. In fact, there's probably a new one that comes out every year about the financial advantages of being married. Yeah. Now, the 35-year-old, as an example, it's not Max's situation again. Right. But the 35-year-old that is married has 13 times the net worth of an unmarried 35-year-old.

40:15There it is. That means shacked up. And that means single. And that means divorced. And that means widowed. It could be anything. But an unmarried 35-year-old has 13 times less money on average in America. It's a huge advantage. Mm-hmm. Married men live nine years longer on average than unmarried men. Deloney thinks it's because wives keep us from doing stupid stuff. There's no question. I don't think that's the singular issue, but clearly a key issue. You're going to eat that? Yes. I'm going to eat that. It's really true. And I'm going to have two of them. Or this is the one that I get a lot.

40:57You're going to try that? Are you aware of how old you are? You know, it's like the thing that could cause a lot of bodily harm, which might begin the downfall. But that's an actual number. And married ladies only live four years longer than unmarried ladies. So it extends male. What is it that we do for women? Let's get something to score for the men here. What do we do that allows women to live longer? I suspect, I don't know. We're having a hard time. Higher net worth. I couldn't think of anything either. Oh, man, that's terrible. That's Deloney's take on it. I don't know. I mean, but seriously, there's all this data on your, not only your incomes, married men's incomes are way higher than unmarried men's incomes.

41:46Way higher. And I suspect that's because there's a lash on their back. I don't know. I got it, Dave. It just came to me. The reason that married women live four years longer, if I got that right, is because they have more purpose in continually trying to take care of us and raise us. The maternal instinct of a married woman remains strong even after their children leave because they're taking care of us. I think that's what it is. I'm going to stick to that. They have purpose. There it is. They have purpose. That's what it is. You're probably on to something. I love it.

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44:02Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author, is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us. Brad is with us in Chicago. Hey, Brad, how are you? Doing good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? So my question is, should we or should you ever borrow money for your tithe? Why would you have to do that? So we own a business and we've had a pretty successful year, but we bought some equipment and we paid cash for that, which kind of left us a little bit cash depleted here in December to be able to, what I like to do is give at least 10%, if not more.

44:52So my question would be, do I borrow money? You give 10 % of your net profit, right? Yeah. Well, purchasing equipment lowers your net profit, does it not? Yeah, I mean, but I would depreciate it over seven years. But that's a tax issue. That's not a tithe issue. If I spend a million dollars on a piece of equipment, I don't have the million dollars anymore. Correct. But if I look at my income statement, it would still show, you know, a pretty healthy profit. But the tithe is not on that. The tithe is not on taxable income. The tithe is on net increase, according to Deuteronomy. If we're getting technical, I mean, I assume you're asking a technical biblical question.

45:36And so I'm approaching it from that angle. To start with, I'm not a Pharisee about this, and I don't think God is either. I'm pretty sure, based on my study of scriptures, that God loves a cheerful giver, and he loves tithers as much as he loves non-tithers. And when in doubt, I overgive, because when I get up there, I don't want to be wrong. It's not any harder than that for me, okay? So I don't try to figure it out too much. I tithe on my taxable cash flow income. And so if I spend a million dollars on a piece of equipment, regardless of what the IRS says, they don't get to enter into the discussion on my spiritual walk, for God's sakes, really.

46:15And so, yeah. So, I mean, I don't really care what the EBITDA is, and I don't care what the venture capitalist says. All I care is what's my net increase. And I do that prior to taxes, what my net cash flow is for the year. and usually not counting depreciation issues, it would be your taxable income would be what you would deal with. Again, with a lot of grace and mercy because this is more of that. But no, I would never borrow money because there's a lot of indications in Scripture not to borrow money. And so to borrow money and go against one Scripture in order to keep another Scripture is oxymoronic.

46:59So no, we wouldn't do that ever. But just the point is you don't need to if you just define tithing a little differently. So to start with, and Ken, you're a pastor's kid. I want to get your— Yeah, my theological buzzer is buzzing right now. Get your theological upbringing as a PC or PK. But seriously, I'm a tither, okay? I'm an evangelical Christian, and I believe in giving a tenth of your income to your local church. And as I study tithing, it is a New Testament thing, I believe. I have good friends that disagree with me, and they're wrong. We have all these wonderful arguments, Christian arguments, right, that are fun.

47:41But when in doubt, I give, because the purpose of the tithe is not because God needs your money. And the purpose of the tithe is not so that God loves you more. And the purpose of the tithe is certainly not salvation. And a tither is not a better Christian than a non-tither. None of that applies, because we're all walking. We're all sinners saved by grace, those of us that are Christians, okay? And that's what we call ourselves. So we're all walking in this abundance of grace and mercy. So why does God have us to give? He has us to give to practice being a giver. I will say that my challenge, if I understood Brad correctly, my challenge with his question, of course we're not going to borrow.

48:21So that's honestly nonsensical and non-biblical. However, the principle of tithing is about the first fruits. first fruits so i don't think it's okay to spend a million dollars on equipment and not have any money left over to actually you know so i get taxable income i don't disagree with you said yeah it is first fruits meaning it's off the top but it's off the top of your profits i understand deuteronomy and first fruits are in the same thing i understand deuteronomy says of your net increase i i totally agree but in a business kind of here's where i'm sticking first The first part of your net increase is first fruits.

49:00Yeah, but he went and spent on a really – No, that's not a net increase. If I increase payroll, then I've increased my expenses and my business did not profit as much. So I don't need to tithe before I pay the payroll. I tithe after I pay the payroll. And I tithe out the very first dollar of profit after I pay the payroll. That's the first part. Okay. It's not first before expenses. It's after expenses. I agree with that. But what I'm getting at is that you, I think, as a steward of your business, need to manage your books. Payroll is one thing, a really expensive piece of equipment. I think to be able to say, well, I brought in all this money and I had all these expenses, I have a challenge with that.

49:40I know you don't agree with me, but I'm challenged by that. How do you – I don't know enough about his equipment. I don't either. But maybe you're saying he bought too much stuff and took his margins down to nothing. That's what I'm saying. Now, that might be risky, okay? But, I mean, out of the$300 ,000 that Ramsey takes in, I don't take anywhere near that. And we agree. We agree on that. Most of it leaves in expenses, okay? No, I completely agree on that. In equipment and salaries and everything else. Just because a company has revenue of$300 million, I said$300 ,000,$300 million, just because it has$300 million in revenue doesn't mean I get$300 million.

50:13Right. That's not how that works. And, again, I didn't get to follow up, but my point is I'd want to know what that spending is on. because in your case, it's not willy-nilly and we're trying to get out of it. The second thing is the tithe also is what he pays himself. I'm assuming he's paying himself something. Yeah, that's what it should be on. So the tithe is on what you pay yourself. So I just wanted to circle up on that. Again, equipment is equipment. You got to do it. But I'm also saying that I think if you're not careful, and again, I want to not be a Pharisee. I think you're right. It doesn't matter.

50:46At the end of the day, when in doubt, up the tithe. But, you know, like for instance, we should be tithing personally. I'll go ahead and take it a step further since you and I are having this discussion because it's fun. We teach entree leaders to hold back some of their profits in retained earnings. Correct. Savings to run the business well. And I would not tithe on that until you take it home. I don't, by the way, until I take it home because it could be spent in the business. It's here to protect the business and could be it could end up being an expense. Right. Like during COVID, it was an expense because we had to cover payroll.

51:22Right. We used retained earnings. So some of it. So the that kind of stuff. So and that's taxable. Correct. That's right. You know, you don't get the IRS taxes you on that whether you take it home or not. Yeah. So it's an interesting discussion. But the big thing is, is the good on you for thinking about it. That's right. Good on you for loving your faith walk and your God enough that you even care about the answer to the subject. And good on you for being generous. But to borrow to pay a tithe is missing the principle of the tithe. It's missing the whole thing. Yeah, absolutely. Then your banker tithed for you.

51:59Oh, I think I'm going to puke a little.

52:20We'll be right back.

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53:47Alicia is in Maine. Merry Christmas, Alicia. How are you? Hey, Dave. I'm good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? I recently found out I'm pregnant with our second child. Yay! Yeah. Very excited about it. But all I'm saying is our house is pretty small. It's about 900 square feet. So we've been trying to rack our brains on how to either expand it or be able to afford a new house. But my husband is the sole provider. He's a mechanic, so he doesn't make a ton. So we're just really stuck and don't know how to make enough income to bridge the gap in between where we're at now and if we lose the assistance by making more money that we get for it.

54:39Why does him being a mechanic mean he doesn't have money? It should mean he does have money. Unfortunately, in our area where we live, we're in rural Maine, there's not a lot of opportunities for them to make a lot of money. Did I hear you just say losing assistance if he made more money? Yeah, we're like in this weird place where if we make a little bit more money, Then we lose assistance from the state. I am unfortunately well-versed in government programs, so you're on some type of welfare? Yeah, so my daughter is under maintenance care, which is like insurance is a huge expense here. Okay.

55:22I'm sure a lot of other places. We get about$400 or$500 worth of assistance per month if you count the health care and the WIC. You're not going to do this, but here's what you should do. You should move. Told you. I know. It's so hard because all of our family is here. It's not hard. People who are broke and have no opportunity in an area have moved to an area where there was opportunity in economic growth since time began. Yeah. the chances that i'm gonna let my wife and child be on welfare because and live in a 900 square foot home because i can't make any money because we live in an area that doesn't support a normal mechanic salary are zero i'm gonna load up the truck and head to beverly yeah how long has your family how long has your family been in the area my family has been here my i mean my grandparents are from here okay so a long long time have you seen many people get out a lot of my generation has left why do you think they've left yeah i know it's because of the opportunities okay so you really are you called us for one reason and i think you didn't expect this but i mean this really dave is absolutely right You can't call and say, how do we increase our income to get a little bit bigger house?

56:58You're in a 900-square-foot place if you aren't willing to get off of government income. And you're right. They will penalize you. That's the whole point of benefits. They're going to cap you, and then you get stuck in this cycle. So Dave is exactly right. I talked to a guy the other day, and I know your husband is probably not a diesel mechanic. He's probably a car mechanic. But I talked to a diesel mechanic the other day making$120 a year. They ain't on welfare, kid. Some of them can make good money. They ain't on welfare. And we don't want to live on welfare. That's our thing. Then I don't want to live there.

57:32We would like to get into real estate. But you're okay with it. I'm okay with it for now because we don't really have another option. That's not true. I just gave you one. Yes. Okay. If he's a mechanic, he can win in the trades. I don't have another option for you if you stay there. I do agree. I just want to give her this. If he can turn a wrench, he can do HVAC. He can do electrical. He can do plumbing. I'm telling you he can learn all of it. The trades are hopping. The trades are exploding, and you simply need to change zip codes in order to change your income. It's that simple. I'd go get a decent cert in a heartbeat and be in a major metro area and buy an airline ticket and come home and see Grandma every so often.

58:14Come on. I mean, I could keep going. Welding? i mean a roofer 160 000 a year it's unbelievable the money people are making yeah by the way makes some of these lawyers look bad i mean you know the joke about the plumber and the lawyer right i'd like to hear it actually lawyer called a plumber and he came in and he in 30 seconds he fixed the sink and he said that's 350 and he goes well that that's like two thousand dollars an hour he goes i don't make that i'm a lawyer he goes i didn't either when i was a lawyer yeah mike rowe would love that that's great you know in all honesty dave you tell you let's just i'm just throwing this out there because i think this affects our larger audience when you start getting outside of ways like dave just told us to move all right if you go from maine and we get real crazy and we go to the nearest big metropolitan area in the northeast boston this is one of the wealthiest cities in the united states they need tradesmen and to dave's point if you're willing to go to the big city and surrounding areas, by the way, it doesn't have to be in Boston proper.

59:16Make big bucks, come back and see the family. It's that simple. Look it up. What a tradesman would make in Boston. What a car mechanic working in a Chevy dealership makes. It's a lot more than you're making, honey. They're not on welfare, I promise. So yeah, you guys have got to make some changes in order for changes to happen. If you keep doing the same thing over and over again, you expect a different result. I don't know if there is a way for him to maximize his income in your area, but I think you know, and I think you know there's not, because I don't think your man's lazy. That's not what I said.

59:52I don't think he's got opportunity in his field. That's why I asked her the question, by the way, if you see people leaving, why are they leaving? You know? And sadly, I mean, it's happening to small town USA everywhere. It is. But it is the reality of economics. It's just that. And when there is a lack of opportunity, people move. John Grisham had an old book out years ago. You know, he's a fiction writer. It's a fiction book called Painted House. But he talks about a kid growing up in Arkansas cotton fields and dirt poor, you know, white trash, and grew up. And he talks about the cousin that moved away to Detroit.

1:00:33This is in the 1940s in the Great Depression. In the Dust Bowl, right? Yep. And the cousin that moved away to Detroit, and he came back wearing a fancy suit, driving a brand new car, working in the car factory, and had married a Yankee wife. You know, and that's what they talk about when he's coming back. But that was a classic example of what you call a diaspora, which is where people move due to war or due to weather. Katrina caused Cajun restaurants to be all over America because people left New Orleans and never went back. because everything was torn down. The levees broke. The whole place is flooded.

1:01:07It was a mess. And they just said, screw it. I'm out of here. And consequently, there's Cajuns all over America that weren't planning to be. And, you know, you've got economics, you've got a weather, you've got all kinds of other issues that drive it. But sometimes it's just opportunity. Well, let's not forget, Dave. I'm so glad you took us there. Let's not forget the origins of this great nation is it really began to really explode after colonial times. We're talking about the Statue of Liberty. You're talking about the Irish, Scots, the Italians. I mean, New York is the melting pot that it is because people from across the globe said, we're going to leave family and thousands of years of tradition to go have an opportunity.

1:01:52So we're asking somebody to leave rural Maine. Let's not forget how America gets where we are today. It was because people left their homeland. We're talking countries that have been around forever and said, I'm going for opportunity. And it was desperate. You're getting on a ship and going across the Atlantic. I mean, that's. Yeah, and you may or may not make it. A hundred percent. Absolutely. That's just real stuff, y 'all. And it's not just picking on Alicia and her husband, but it's just something to talk about. It kind of comes back to this thing, too. I can't afford a house. Well, where do you live?

1:02:24I live in San Francisco. Well, of course you can't afford a house. You have to be in the top 1 % of income earners to buy a house in San Francisco right now. I live in downtown Manhattan in New York. Right. Not unless you make$200 ,000 you don't. you know you're going to have to be in Abilene Texas honey hello and you know you're going to go somewhere where you can afford to live and so if you know if you're going to buy a home you may want to think about a different location for some of you because the economics don't fit and you can't just decide well I'm in California and they don't really do math here I know they don't do math but that doesn't mean math doesn't work.

1:03:08Thank you.

1:03:38Dave, we got a lot of calls on this show where life happens. One day someone's healthy, they're working, providing for their family, and then a curveball hits. You know, we hear it all the time. A car accident, a cancer diagnosis, a heart attack, and suddenly everything changes. Yeah, and that's why you've always said that having term life insurance from Xander is essential because it protects your family if the worst happens. Yeah, that's right. You need 10 to 12 times your income in coverage. No gimmicks, no whole life junk, just straightforward term life protection. But there's another piece that people often overlook, and that's long-term disability insurance.

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1:05:31The Ramsey Show Question of the Day is brought to you by YRefi. If you've been turned down by other lenders because your private student loans are in default, well, YRefi is for you. They help borrowers restart with dignity in a clear direction to get out. Check out YRefi.com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y-R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. Not in all states. Today's question comes from Victoria in New Hampshire. My father-in-law started a business many years ago, but hasn't been actively managing it. So my husband and I have been running it. The three of us are on the company payroll along with our employees.

1:06:09My father-in-law feels the profit should belong to him because he started the business. We want to include him, but we also need to make wise financial decisions about the money that we, not him, have worked hard to earn and manage. How can we honor our parents while still being responsible stewards of the business we now run full time? I had dinner just the other night with our mutual dear friend, Henry Cloud, and I can just see boundaries flashing light here. I understand the frustration that we can read into this email. But the reality is the father-in-law did, in fact, start the business and still owns it.

1:06:47You don't own it. So we don't have clear boundaries, professional boundaries as to who does what, why they do it, how they get paid. It's just kind of you guys have all just been going about your business. And now there's tension because there isn't clearly defined lines. And without that, if Dave and I were on some of those one of those goofy judge shows, I'd be going, look, I get your frustration. But this isn't your business. So you're very little that you can do here until we sit down with father-in-law and ask for some type of restructuring, at which point he gets to decide what he's going to do with his business.

1:07:23Yeah. Look, we don't want to run it anymore and not be the owners. That's what you're actually saying. And so we took it over just as a favor to you, and we've run it for a while, but we need to go along with our lives and our career. And so we're going to move on unless we can work something out to where we become the owners of this. But we're not going to continue to work here as employees because that's what you are. You're not due any of the profits, Victoria. You're wrong. That's right. You're wrong. You don't own it. You work for someone else that owns the business. And you should have changed that when you walked in the door.

1:08:08So now you've got to go back and unspill the milk, which is very difficult. but so the conversation is hey dad we came in we stepped up we helped you out for a while but that's not working for us long term uh because you keep all the profits and we do all the work and so we either wanted to work out something where over the next little while we become the owners through some process that you feel good about and that we feel good about or we're going to have to look for a different career and you're gonna have to look for a different manager for your business. And either one of those is okay. But you guys went in here and sat on your assumptions.

1:08:48And your assumptions were that you were going to be the owner. And no one said out loud that you were or weren't. And so you weren't. Because the title to the business is still in his name. So he is due 100 % of the profits. He owns the business. You don't own it. And you have to change that, or if you don't change it and don't like the arrangement, you need to move on. Either one of those is fine. And that's not dishonoring or honoring to your parents. You use stewardship and honor parents, so I'm sensing a hyper-Christian take on this stuff, and it's not dishonoring to parents to have boundaries.

1:09:28It's not dishonoring to someone to say, I don't want to work here. When someone leaves Ramsey, it's not dishonoring to me unless they intentionally dishonor me. But I mean, just the fact that they don't want to work here anymore doesn't mean that I'm a awful person or that I'm automatically that they think I'm an awful person. A lot of times they have something else they want to do that's different. That's all. And so that's not dishonoring in any way. You know, there's something there you've just pulled out that class, but how can we honor our parents while still being responsible stewards? Here's the thing.

1:09:58That is a bit of a self-righteous tone that you can clearly see there. And here's the lesson from this. Unclear expectations lead to bad relations, right? A hundred percent of anger. Every time. Because you had this expectation. Your father-in-law had a very different expectation. Nobody got clear about it, at least to write it down and get some concrete steps moving forward. Dave, you've nailed it here. You get angry when you expect something you didn't get. That's it. Yeah. Like when you tried to chip shot that shot up onto the green the other day and you missed. Yeah. That's anger, right? there i saw that that's the frustration you expected that to work yeah i saw it didn't work yeah and i chili dipped it and it went six yards and it's supposed to be a 35 yard shot that is that is my expectations number one being unrealistic let's start since we're going to teach out of this i don't play golf enough to be good enough to expect it i was just an illustration let's just mix metaphors an underhand pitch but yeah so all right yeah too fun so that's it yeah the secret to happiness is lowered expectations and clear ones uh realistic and clear that would be your two attributes lisa's in cleveland hey lisa what's up hi how you doing better than i deserve how can we help uh thank you for taking my call um i just uh started listening to you this year and i'm undertaking student loans for the first time good for you you mean you're you mean you're getting ready to pay them or you're taking them out getting ready to pay them oh good okay i'm glad starting in january so i have a plan all laid out but i just need a little bit of um advice okay um uh first of all financial and then the second of all the um more spiritual so it might be a first on this show so my first question um financing student loans Should I refinance them or should I just start paying them off starting in January?

1:12:04What are the interest rates? It's 6.25 for both of them. I have a subsidized loan at$29 ,407.48. You don't refinance student loans unless you get a better interest rate. Right. I want a lower one. And if you get a lower one, you get one time. One time you can refinance student loans. And so you've got to feel really good about the new interest rate that you're going to get. It's going to be way lower, and you don't think interest rates are going down, which they might be, by the way. So I would not refinance right now. I might wait until the end of the year. On government-insured, we're talking about federally-insured student loans, right?

1:12:46Right. Yeah, okay. So wait until towards the end of the year, and let's see if rates come on down a little more. So if you've got a six and you can get a four and a half, yeah, let's get a better rate. Rate's not going to save you. What's your balances? So for the subsidized one, it's$29 ,000 and some change. And for the unsubsidized one, it's$50 ,000 and some change. But the total is$79 ,000 and some change. So 1 % of$79 ,000 is$700. So if you save 1 % by refinancing, you save$700. that doesn't go a long way toward paying off 79 ,000 so the secret sauce is not a lower interest rate to getting out of debt the secret sauce is you dumping tons of money on these things and getting rid of them fast right and and that's my goal so a little bit of backstory um i'm a traveling cna certified nursing assistant good um we don't we don't get paid like the nurses do But, you know, that's why I started traveling.

1:13:52But you get paid more than staying at home. Yes, yes, absolutely. Yes, yes. So I've been traveling for eight years. I got these student loans back in my 20s. I'm much older now, tag on about 15 years. And three things really jarred me into like, come on, you, I mean, you've got to do it. You've got to do it. So I ended up getting a couple of travel contracts in New York, and I got one that pays very well through a hospital nursing home. And over time, I take home roughly, if I get 16 hours a week, I take home about$8 ,000-something. Wow, that's awesome. Live on nothing, kiddo, and dump it on these student loans and clean it up.

1:14:42They've been following you around for too long. They're not a pet. Let's evict them. Sally Mae is an ugly woman. Throw her in the street.

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1:16:10everyone needs insurance but it can be hard trying to find pros who aren't looking to make a buck and agents who really know their stuff ramsey trusted insurance pros are vetted and coached to make sure they're market experts who have your best interest at heart they're independent agents they don't work for one company they work for you and search several companies. Go to RamseySolutions.com slash coverage to find the type of insurance you're looking for and to connect with a Ramsey-trusted agent. Wilson is in Knoxville. Hi, Wilson. How are you? Hey, good afternoon, Dave. I'm doing all right.

1:16:48I'm reaching out to you. I've watched a lot of the episodes online. You get a little backstory. My father passed away in July. I'm sorry. And thank you. He divided his estate with me and my two sisters. And I had just bought a house in July, maybe two weeks into having the house. Daddy passed away. So my question to you is it's kind of a two part. Number one, I don't want to get rid of my father's house because my two sisters didn't grow up there. I grew up there, and that was the house from all my childhood memories. It's a real sentimental piece to me. My two sisters, however, do want to just sell off everything.

1:17:45It's kind of a big want to. Along with Dad's house, there's a house next door that would be my grandma's old house or so on that. and then it's, I guess, maybe in total five, six acres with a working farm, a barn, a detached garage. And so it's a big chunk of land. So I guess first off, my question is what would you do if you were in my position on that? Well, your dad's will dictates that everything be split three ways, and generally that means the assets will be sold off. So that was pretty much your father's intent. Okay. And so I think your sisters are going along with that. Now, what is the house that you grew up in, what's it worth?

1:18:40We haven't... Oh, about, about. Give me a number. We'll say maybe$600 ,000. Okay. What's the grandma's house and barn and so forth worth? uh grandma's house i would say we'll say 200 just for the house then if you add on the land barn all that you might be working at maybe 450 five okay so this is a million dollars worth of property and did your dad have other assets substantial assets

1:19:15uh not no nothing that would really stick out on that no sir okay so there's not like two million in Exxon stock or something? No, no, sir. Because we could give your sisters that, and you took the land. I mean, you could divvy it up three ways, and you end up with it. But basically, most of the larger portion of almost all of his estate is these two pieces of property, a million dollars worth, right? Yes, sir. Okay. Okay. So what is your personal home worth, Wilson? We'll say right at$300 ,000. Okay. And what do you make, sir?

1:19:57I would say about$5 ,500 a month. My year to date right now is I think I'm right at$70 ,000. Yeah. Okay. So the math says this. Yes, sir. That you lost your dad and it breaks your heart. Yeah. And with that, you're not in a position to buy your childhood home. And so it's going to be someone else's home now. Yeah. And you're going to get your memories and your nostalgia from something other than the family home place. Yeah. So my grandmother grew up in a home that was her parents beforehand. My dad grew up in that home. And when my grandmother and grandfather passed away, none of the three brothers and sisters, my dad, aunt and uncle, had any need of that home and several acres.

1:20:59It's a beautiful old place. And they sold it. And I was, as one of the grandkids, I was kind of sad. Yeah. But it also was a very reasonable thing to do for an adult because you go, I mean, what am I going to do? Move to another town in this old house, old country house, just because it's sentimental? No, I'm not. And it doesn't make sense. And so it needs to be sold and it needs to be divvied up. But there's a sadness that goes with that. And you've got that sadness combined with the sadness of losing your dad this year. And so it's kind of the year of heartbreak for you. And I'm sorry. I guess my leading to the other question I had

1:21:42once I guess all everything's all sold and you know say I get my portion whatever check cut today what would in your opinion what would be a good investment opportunity for me like do you have a mortgage on your home sir yes sir yes sir yeah I'd pay it off Okay. Do you have any other debt? All right. No. My personal truck, I paid that off last year. Yeah. And, you know, my fiancée, she, we've already got the wedding paid for. Everything's coming up in May. Yeah. And let me encourage you. Oh, congratulations on that, by the way. That's good news. So a new fresh start. Thank you. There we go. And let me encourage you this.

1:22:32I don't think your sisters are bad people. I don't want you to have ill will towards them because they're just doing what your dad said to do. Yeah. It's not, you know, none of y 'all are going to live in that house. You can't afford to. And so they're liquidating it and splitting it three ways. And that's how he had set up his life. And so they're not doing anything wrong, sir. So the last thing I want you to do is lose your dad, lose the house, and then lose relationship with your sisters too. Yeah, Wilson, I'm just sitting here listening. I want you to reframe this. Your dad, in his generosity, is essentially paying for your first home, for you to get started in your new life with your new wife.

1:23:17This is a blessing. I haven't thought of that. I think that's truly what you need to do is go, man, my dad, he left me and my sisters with enough for me to start my life debt free, essentially. Wow. That's a big deal. And you can become very, very wealthy as a result of that. Yeah. Your fiance's income combined with yours and no house payment and no payments. I mean, you're going to be making a hundred and something thousand dollars a year between the two of you or more. And you're young. And yeah. But also, it's okay to just say out loud that this hurts and it's sad. And I don't like it. But I do like the future that he gave you.

1:23:58So I'm going to go with that. That's a good reframe, Ken. I like that. And, you know, you got this barn and all this. You know, before you sell it, is there something nostalgic from the house or the barn that you take to your sisters? You go, I'd like to take this. And you can take something with you. Sure. You know, and honestly, truthfully, if you're going to have something nostalgic, it ought to be a little smaller. Yeah, it's exactly right. I was thinking of cool sign in the barn. I got my grandma's Bible. I don't have her house. Okay. That's easier to carry around. It's true. So, yeah. And I got my grandpa's gun and it's easier to carry around.

1:24:35Right. And so, which is kind of how we did things. She had the Bible, he had the gun. But that's, yeah. Wow. And so, yeah, look for nostalgic things like that because memories are not in real estate. Dirt or bricks and mortar. And real estate can trap you with emotions. It's family dirt that's generationally been there. I've seen some of the worst decisions in my life made, watched people make some of the worst decisions in the name of the emotions of generational family dirt. And, man, you can just get trapped in the emotions of that. when the old man that bought it originally would have never wanted that right you know now you know the great grandpa in this case or whatever or my great great grandpa yeah would have not wanted us to do something stupid with that piece of ground i was talking about a minute ago yeah and in the name of family dirt because he is just something he bought you know it wasn't family dirt before he bought it so somebody's now somebody else's family dirt so let's just um there we go hey wilson there's a lot of good can come from this you and your sisters can be closer You get a good fresh start, and it's okay to say that I'm sad about it.

1:26:18Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author and host of Front Row Seat, Ramsey Network's runaway hit. He's my co-host. I'm Dave Ramsey. The phone number here is 888-825-5225. Merry Christmas, America. We're glad you're here. Ryan is with us in Salt Lake City. Hey, Ryan, what's up in your world? Hi, Dave. Hi, Ken. Thanks for taking my call. My wife and I are in Baby Step 7 with a net worth of about$1.6 million. I'm calling because I have a plan to leave my corporate job for my side hustle, and I kind of need a sanity check.

1:26:59I just want to know if I'm being a fool to trade security for independence, you know, Or is this exactly what baby step seven is for? Well, give us the numbers. I love this question. Tell us what your income is in your corporate job. Okay, so I make close to$200 ,000 a year right now. And the side hustle, this is not great. Consistently, it's about$2 ,000 a month that I bring in net. And that has been, over the course of two years, a consistent$2 ,000 that we can count on. What is it? So it's just buying and selling abandoned storage units. I tried the first one as kind of a hobby, and now my wife calls this my hobby jobby.

1:27:41And I buy five or six a year, so it's really not a lot. And I've just done this in my spare time. Yeah, this is just above a hobby. She's right. Right. So how old are you? I'm 44. How old is she? She's 39. What does she make? So up until about four months ago, she only had part-time jobs and worked in the home. But starting in September, she got a full-time job as a teacher, her dream job that she's always wanted to do. And now she's making about$4 ,000 a month net. So she's netting$4 ,000. What do you do with your corporate job? What's your career? So I'm a software developer. Okay. The answer is no.

1:28:28because we always answer what would we do if we were in your shoes and uh would i walk away from a two hundred thousand dollar gig for a twenty four thousand dollar hobby not at 44 no uh you still got a lot of earning potential i think there's still a transition i think you need a better side hustle and let me just tell you my rule of thumb on when do we leave a full-time job to a side hustle just so that you have some context because you're not there but i would want a minimum of six to 12 months of my income. And in your case, that's$200 ,000. I would want six to 12 months of that in the retained earnings, is what we call it here, in the company, the side hustle's bank account, before I even thought about moving out.

1:29:13But in your case, I don't even think that's the right, because this is hard to scale. I would just say some percentage of your income. It's a hard to scale business. If you had a side hustle that was$150 ,000, you know, you could make that jump yeah that's fair and but here's the thing i going from you said software engineer is that what you said yes sir from software engineer to junk dealer is probably not my plan let's understand there's probably there's probably a middle ground here i liked what you said from corporate world to independence yeah let's talk about that and how can we maybe be a software engineer freelance uh start doing some consulting contracts and you decide who and when you want to work for and all that kind of stuff.

1:29:56And maybe you make$250 doing that. I don't know. You don't necessarily have to go down. But you got your independence and you can set your hours and do some of that stuff. Sounds like you got a pitch. I want to hear this out a little bit more because I do have a follow-up question. Go ahead. I know you want to say something. If I could push back just a little bit. About two years ago, I was ready to just jump and leave the corporate world. I was burnt out and I still am. And I felt like I could barely hold on. I found something that I could gravitate towards and something that I loved and was passionate about and something that I felt really proud that I had built and bootstrapped from a$500 initial investment to something that consistently makes$2 ,000 a month in cash.

1:30:45And we also planned two years ago, I knew I couldn't jump in. It would be ridiculous to try and say that I can replace a$200 ,000 a year income ever. But that's not what I want. I don't want to pile up money in a bank account just to have$10 million when I retire if I'm not happy. And my soul felt like it had been sucked out of my body. Totally get it. Let me ask you a quick question on that. What would you say is the greatest source of your burnout? Is it people? Is it the environment? Is it the workload? Those are usually the big three. What is it for you? Yeah, I would say it's the corporate nonsense and the lack of independence, that there's just so much in my way.

1:31:26None of those mean you have to make less to be happy. I know, but does it mean that I need to make more or the same to be happy? No, but to automatically assume less equals happy, that's not a proper framework. I understand. All right, let me ask you another question. I'm very happy, and I make a lot more. yeah i'm sure what has to happen ryan you've done this long enough to know something about this business if you gave it 40 hours a week what do you anticipate the income becoming i i've thought about this a lot i know and i i've had so here's here's my plan so um i the best month that i've had was six thousand dollars uh in net net profit okay and that was that was from buying multiple lockers instead of having to space them out so much because I had more spare time to do it.

1:32:21I have a sabbatical coming up because I do have a great corporate job. It's very cushy. You know, I have a sabbatical that comes up for having worked at the same company for 15 years and I have six weeks off in March. I want to take that six weeks and I want to bust my butt and put my nose to the grindstone and see what I can do putting 40 hours, 50, 60 hours a week. What do you think you can do? What do you think you can do? I think that I could average 6 ,000 a month and I could have a breakout months of 10. Okay. So I'm going to tell you something after hearing your cause of burnout and I'm on your team, but I'm going to give you some, some tough love.

1:33:00That is a mindset issue that you actually can control. I didn't hear toxic environment. I didn't hear a jerk boss. I heard cushy job. So I'm going to tell you what's going on. You can control your desire. And your desire is to be independent. I love it. But I'm going to tell you this right now. I love the six week sabbatical. Do not quit your job right now. This is advice I would give to myself. Let's prove out this hypothesis in the six weeks. But let's not immediately quit if that goes well. And I think you need to change your mindset starting today that, yes, what's really going on in this burnout is I'm spending all my time thinking about my desired future, and I'm not willing to be patient to get to that desired future in a much better way.

1:33:52And I think you're just so ready to leave and be your own guy that you're missing what is a phenomenal platform by which to step into that desired future. I think you can step into it too soon and talk yourself into making less money because I just want to be happy. I think you need to be wise. I think more wisdom, less happy is the mindset right now. Yeah. I'm a little bit afraid. No, I'm a lot afraid that you've confused the freedom that you feel doing this business with an actual passion for the business. Yeah. You just buy this own junk. I mean, it's okay. It's not exactly like you're changing the world or there's passion.

1:34:34Where's the passion? The passion comes from your independent and you're controlling your own destiny. And that's where you're getting your passion from. It's not the actual actions. And I think you can do that in a way that is better for your family of 44 years old than$24 ,000 a year.

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1:37:08Pre-order today at RamseySolutions.com slash store, or if you're watching on YouTube or podcast, click the link in the description. Cindy's in Dallas. Hi, Cindy. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Thank you. Sure. What's up? So I have two paid-off vehicles, a 06 Honda Odyssey and a 2010 Chevy Traverse. but I keep having so many repairs. I don't make a lot each month. I'm a single parent. Why do you have two cars? Well, they each keep breaking down. You have a spare? Yeah. You have a teenager? No. Okay. It's me and kids. How old are the kids? They're all 10 and under, three of them. So you don't really need two cars?

1:38:00my problem is uh whenever one breaks down i use the other but they both have so many what if you sold them both and piled the money together and got a good car i don't know that anyone would give me a whole lot for both i don't want to end up back where i'm at like one needs a timing chain and the other uh it's been leaking oil it i just i feel like i don't have enough to get a decent car that's not going to have the same problem. How do you know? I've asked around for people to buy the worst car. Who'd you ask? I've asked two different mechanics, a dealer. You ask a mechanic to buy your car. Well, he sells these cars.

1:38:47I bet he does, which means he buys yours cheap and resells it for a profit. Bad information. Okay, I want you to take these cars and look them up on Kelly Blue Book, kbb.com, private sale. I think you have a$3 ,000 car and a$5 ,000 car. That's what I think. And I think that's$8 ,000, and then you go get an$8 ,000 car. Do you have any money at all? I have some, but I've put thousands into it. How much do you have in money?

1:39:23I have about$2 ,000. Okay. All right. And so if you got$8 ,000 out of these two cars and put your last$2 ,000 with it, you could buy a$10 ,000 car. Do you have any family in the area? Some. What? I have some. What's some? Who? My parents. Okay. You say that with great enthusiasm.

1:39:51How old are you? I'm 34. Okay. How long have you been by yourself, kid? Three years. Is there a large church, what we call mega church or good-sized church or multiple good-sized churches in your area? Sure. She's in Dallas. Yeah, there's a large church. Okay, here's what I want you to do. Because you're a single mom, and I'm not saying these churches all have it, But I know several churches in our area have a program where they help single moms that have automobile issues. So that could be a free mechanic to get this timing belt changed to then be able to sell as Dave has been. My point is, I want you to know that there is some real possibilities for help.

1:40:36But you've got to know that as a single mom, there are people out there that want to help you with the car. They may give you, there's a large church that Dave and I go to, we give cars away to single moms. You've got to be okay asking for help here because it feels like if we can fix this car situation, this is going to take a huge lid of stress off of you. Am I right? Yeah, it would be a lot better. Are you willing to show up and say, I need help? I've applied to one of their programs. I didn't hear back from that one. I'm sorry about that, but I would show up. Call them again. Prove to them that you aren't a deadbeat, which you're not, and that you're taken care of.

1:41:15Let them know who you are. You applied to a program with a church? Yes. Yeah, usually there's some type of... I know, and they didn't call back? I mean, they have something where you have to call in at 6 in the morning, and you have to go through an application for them to pick one family. Let's go. You're in a desperate situation. Let's get up at 5 a.m. for that. I have applied to increase my VA disability. I'm hoping that that will lead to something. You completely sidestepped the suggestion. Yes. You need to go do what Ken's telling you to do. And then when you get ready to sell these two cars, I would ask that you get your brother or your dad or one of the gentlemen from a local church to go with you in the sale and in the repurchase to help you select something in the repurchase.

1:42:08Not that you're not able to, but you want another set of eyes looking at the mechanical ability so you don't buy another problem. Okay? Yes. And you might even get it inspected before you buy it. So if you could find a$10 ,000 car from a grandmother that is selling it on a garage sale, and you probably could get a very good car for that kind of money right now, and you probably can put that money together from these two vehicles. You may have to go through that church program at 5 o 'clock in the morning that Ken's talking about, get that timing belt changed and cause all this to happen. But what you're doing has to change because what you're doing is not working.

1:42:50Would you agree with that? Yes, it's impossible to save and keep running. Exactly. And you're getting tired, and you're by yourself, and you're getting the crud beat out of you by this situation. I can feel the fatigue in your voice. I'm sorry. Thank you. But you're tough. You are a tough lady. You're a warrior princess. And you can fight through this, but you're going to have to start making some big moves to get these. These cars need to be gone. A spare, because both of them suck, is not a plan. Yeah, I've been trying to follow what you said about buying in cash. And I bought the van in June for$675.

1:43:34and I knew it needed some repairs, but it just keeps needing repairs. Well, we've never told anybody to buy a$675 van. I have, but I didn't tell her that. Have you really? I guess I hope she is in that range. Yeah, no, listen, keep your head up. Listen, get your head up. Here's what I need you to know, that there are people who are willing to help you and you've got to swallow. I'm not saying you're prideful at all, but we all have it. I think you've got to show up and say, will you help me? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that we've got some pretty good connections there. I agree. I'm not going to name their names on the air, but we'll make some calls for you there and see if we can help you get tied into a good local church and see if they can walk you through some help, okay?

1:44:16Because you need some help. And I'm going to ask you to ask your dad. It sounds like that's not a comfortable relationship, but to ask him to help you select the next thing and get rid of these two so that you can get into a decent car. And maybe I'm wrong. If you bought it for$675, you might not have$8 ,000 worth of vehicles. I'm probably wrong on my math. But, yeah, the thing is we've got to get the two of these put together with a little money and some wisdom and get you into something where cars are not consuming your life anymore, hon. So you hang on. Christian's going to pick up, and he'll get you with our church guys.

1:44:53We have a department that works with churches. Christian, you can put her with Josh, and he'll help her find somebody that's got a car program there in Dallas. There's a bunch of them that do, I'm sure. I don't want to name any of them I know a bunch of them but I don't want to name them on there and put them on the spot but we'll take care of her make sure she's okay

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1:46:52Taylor is with us in Houston, Texas. Merry Christmas, Taylor. How are you? Well, maybe if I push the button, Taylor would be there. Hi, Taylor. How are you? Hey, Dave. I'm doing great. How are you, sir? Better than I deserve. I see on my screen you're a Baby Steps millionaire. Congratulations. Thank you very much. So how much is your net worth, sir? $1.1 million. Very cool. How old are you? 32. Oh, wow. Young one. Good for you. And what's the breakdown of your$1.1 million? How's it invested? Well, it's pretty simple, Dave. I've got$570 ,000 in my 401k. I've got$125 ,000 in my Roth IRA,$170 ,000 in taxable.

1:47:37My home's worth about$250 ,000, and I've got about$20 ,000 in cash. Good for you. Well done. Well done. And what do you do for a living? I'm a union electrician. Ah, very good. Good for you. What's your wife do? I'm single. I'm not married. Ah, okay. And you did all this by 32. Did you inherit anything? No, sir. Not a penny. Zero inheritance. So you're an electrician at 32 years old, and you've got a$1.1 million net worth. I think that kind of rests our case on the trades, doesn't it? Yes, sir. How old were you when you started? 20. Okay. So 12 years. Yes, sir. You paid off the house and stacked the 401k.

1:48:20Yes, sir. I paid off my house about three months ago, actually. Wow. Good for you. How does that feel, man? Did you ever think when you started as an electrician at 20 years old that you were going to be a millionaire at 32? No, I definitely didn't think that it was going to be possible. It was always a dream, but I started listening to you about 10 years ago and set myself the goal to achieve becoming a millionaire and being able to be on your radio show, and here we are. Wow, look at that, man. Congratulations. Thank you. So you have a, what did you do, an apprenticeship or did you get some kind of a certification degree or what?

1:49:02So I actually got a scholarship out of high school from a local plant that I really wanted to work at. And they put me through a two-year associate's degree program. And after I finished that, I was lucky to get hired on there. And I did go through a three-year apprenticeship program with them. And then so ever since then, it's just been just staying steady and being consistent. So what was your starting income when you started all that? My first year, I've been very blessed. My first year was$95 ,000. Okay. And what do you make now? About$200 ,000,$210 ,000. Okay. As an electrician. Oh, I love this call.

1:49:47This makes me so happy.

1:49:51incredible incredible how's it feel to be at this point at 32 years old does it ever look at that and go wow well i do it um uh it doesn't really feel any different as far as how i've always felt but um it is it is a nice milestone to reach and uh i just look forward to just continuing to save and invest and see what other goals I can reach. You think it can still be done if somebody's listening right now and they're 20 and they started an apprenticeship program, an associate's degree, and move out an electrician? You think that can still be done in America? Absolutely, 100%. What do you pay for your house?

1:50:32$242. Okay. In Houston, Texas? Yes, sir. I'm about an hour outside of Houston. I'm in more of a rural area. What's the area? Yes, sir. Bay City. Okay. Yeah, I know Bay City. All right. And so does 242 buy a pretty decent house in Bay City, Texas right now? Yes, sir. I would say so. It's a three-bed, two-bath, 2 ,000 square feet, and a nice neighborhood, quiet, established neighborhood. I think that addresses the affordability concerns we hear. Yes, sir. Definitely. Question, do you have plans or have you allowed yourself to wonder about owning your own business as an electrician? Or what do you think about professionally now that you've been in this field for, let's call it 10, 12 years?

1:51:24I have thought about it. I've thought about what other opportunities I could get into as far as additional income streams. What have you identified? Not saying you're going to do it, but what have you identified? Because I want our audience to hear what these options might be. Well, one of them is I've kind of always been interested in owning maybe an RV park. We're kind of in a big industrial area where I'm at. There's a lot of plants and a lot of industry around. And it seems like the RV parks are always full, just constant, constant, you know, visitors and contractors, workers coming through.

1:52:00So that was always something that I've been interested in. And that cash position and no debt sets you up to be able to do that. All right, I have another question. For parents that are listening right now, and they've got a kid who has either said something about it, or maybe they wonder if their kid is a college kid, and maybe they're feeling cultural pressure about that. If their kid's handy, a little bit leans towards some of the skill sets that could work in a trade, but they're worried about the perception of that, not going to a four-year school. What would you say to those parents? I would say there's some excellent opportunities in the trades.

1:52:37It's a very respected career in the area. You have a skill set that you can keep for life. I mean, you can take the skills you learn in the trades, and you can take them anywhere. And we need a lot of tradespeople in this country. And there's just some great opportunities for earning and for stability in those careers. Yeah. Well, Taylor, we're proud of you, man. Congratulations. I'm so happy for you. Excellent work, man. Baby Steps Millionaire is listening to us at 20 years old, becomes an electrician. $1.1 million net worth,$250 ,000 paid-for home. That's 2 ,000 square feet, three bedrooms in the Houston, Texas area.

1:53:22And$625 ,000 in retirement accounts, Dave, at 32. Yeah. That's just going to turn into millions. It's going to be, you know, he's going to have$40 or$50 million if he doesn't watch what he's doing. It's going to get out of control. It's pretty wild. That's just bizarre. At 32 freaking years old, starting out making$95 ,000 after apprenticeship and moves into$200 ,000 a year. So there's your answer. And you know what they didn't have? $350 ,000 in student loan debt and a parent plus loan. That's what he didn't have. And so the place he went to work gave the scholarship for him to get an associates for free.

1:54:08Exactly right. Let's just track this a minute, okay? And this is a different way of thinking about things. Again, we're not against higher education, but we are both very excited that the trades are exploding in America. and made in America starting to be a thing again. And that's a good thing. There's a bazillion of these things. We need to clip this call and send it to our friend Mike Rowe. He'll love this call. I almost said if we fund it to three-way call Mike in here, and he would be so excited. He would have been cheering Taylor on. Here's something, by the way, out of the news. In the next 15 to 20 years, the federal government is predicting that they will have to hire as many as 600 ,000 electricians.

1:54:52The federal government will? The federal government. To do what? Government contracts, you know, like defense. Electric chairs for the IRS agents? I mean, what do you got to hire? I'm just telling you. 600 ,000. Over, over. Oh, and contracts, subcontract, not just federal employees. Federal employees to do work on federal buildings, federal. And I'm just pointing it out that the need is that big. And whether or not they're going to do that or not is not the issue. I don't want you to get lost in the massive number there. But the idea here is that – I'm going to get lost in the massive government spending is what I'm getting lost in.

1:55:27But the point is – and again, I'm not trying to drive people to federal work. No. But I'm saying that the need for the tradesmen – and Mike's been saying this. You've been saying – I've been saying this. There is going to be a massive amount of tradesmen who are retiring. and the need is massive, which means that the pay scale is going to be very, very good. And this young man is an example. Not doing bad. $200 ,000. He's doing better than most lawyers. Yeah. And no law school loans. Yeah. There's so many jokes there. So many jokes. Lawyer jokes, my favorite. Yeah.

1:56:13Thank you.

1:57:05Do you want to keep more money in your pocket and not Uncle Sam's? tax pro.

1:57:22Our scripture of the day, Proverbs 21 and 5, the plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance. I'm going to say that again. the plans of the diligent by the way diligence is excellence in the ordinary over time the plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty Ronald Reagan said the greatest leader is not necessarily the one who does the greatest things he is the one who gets the people to do the greatest things Rudy is in Sacramento, California Hey, Rudy, what's up in your world? Life is good, and that verse is amazing. I'm going to give you an example of it for my wife and I.

1:58:09We recently moved to the Sacramento area to be near our children and our grandchildren. And so I took a job with a public agency, and we currently have in our retirement accounts$1 ,080 ,000. Wow. And the equity in our home is about maybe$600 ,000. Good for you. We feel about$300 ,000. So I've been doing your principles for 25 years. Good for you. Now, you're talking about your retirement accounts from before in your other job, right? All my other jobs combined, I rolled them over in IRAs. I have IRAs. I have an S &P 500 index account. Good. So I max everything out. We're actually closer to 20 % of our investments.

1:58:47Wow. Of our income. So no debt, just our mortgage. I take cash for cars. I only buy used cars. Excellent. How old are you? 56. Way to go, man. You did good. We've been working our butts off. And, you know, your wife ought to make it. By the way, on a side note, your wife should make a recipe book on beans and rice and rice and beans. There's some good stuff out there. Except that we never really ate it. It's just a metaphor. I know. I know. So, listen, the public agency that I got a job with, they have a retirement plan. I put in 3 % goes into a 457B pre-tax. They match it with a 3 % match. that goes into a 401A with a vesting period of 10 years.

1:59:31I'm not going to be here in 10 years. And then it gets worse. The money goes into a variable annuity. I'm wondering if I just stick to doing what I've been doing and forget their retirement plan. What do you think? Well, you're not going to get the match because you're not going to be there. I'm not going to be there. So the only thing you've got is just a 457, which is just deferred comp. That's all I need. So you're avoiding taxation for a short period of time is all you're doing. Um, yeah. Hmm. I mean, I mean,$548 a month, whatever it is, each, each of us, I'm maxing out the IRA at 23 ,500.

2:00:10And then I have a bunch of money going into the S and T 500 index fund that I have. And I can't, you can't put money anywhere else. You know what? That's exactly what I would do is what you're doing. I'm with you. I would avoid this thing because you're, you've laid out what you've laid out is excellent work on what you're already doing. And of course the 600 that you You said$600 ,000 in retirement now, right? No, I have$1 ,080 ,000. Oh, I missed that. I'm sorry. I got it wrong. $1 ,080 ,000. I have about maybe$600 ,000 in equity. Yeah, that's what it was. That's what it was. Okay, so that million, you're 56.

2:00:42When you're 63, we'll be$2 million. Yeah, we've been planning for 63 for 28 years. It'll be$2 million. And then when you're 70, it'll be$4 million. And that's if you add nothing to it all. and the house, I mean, you'll have it paid off in short order. I would be chunking it on the house and in that index fund. Now, here's the comparison on the index fund because you're at Baby Step 7. You've maxed out any reasonably good retirement. You're avoiding this bad retirement thing. And so that brings up a whole other discussion. You're not at Baby Step 7. You've got that mortgage left. Okay, I'm going to change it.

2:01:21I'm going to throw it on the mortgage. All extra goes on the mortgage. I call the mortgage company, and I ask them if I send them$5 ,200 a month, when would I have my house paid off? And they said December 12, 2032. I don't care what they said. I'm throwing it on the mortgage. I want that mortgage gone. The sooner it is gone, the faster this whole thing explodes. It's already on a great trajectory, and it's going to increase the trajectory. Now, having said that, and that's really what I would do if I were you, Let's stop and explain why I said I like the index fund in your situation, because here's the thing.

2:01:59If you've maxed out all retirement, and we're going to set aside the bad one as not even there, okay? But if you're maxing out all Roth IRAs and everything that's available to you and you're throwing money at the mortgage, if you put money in an annuity, a variable annuity, not the one you're talking about but just did that, it's going to grow, but it's going to be taxed at ordinary income when you take it out. what you put in an index fund, it's a low turnover fund, so there's almost no turnover, so there's almost no taxation on it until you pull it out. And if you leave it alone one year or longer, you qualify for capital gains, so you're only going to be taxed at 15 % rather than at 37%.

2:02:42Yeah, that's what I've been nice. CPA told me that too. Yeah, so it's a great – you've got to go to CPA. So it's a great – you know, the S &P is a great place to park money, because it's a low turnover ratio fund. But I want that house paid off. Would you say you're making household income? I'm at$120 ,000. My wife's at$60 ,000, so$180 ,000. $180 ,000, okay. Yeah,$5 ,260 ,000 a year. We're trying to get aggressive. We're going back to the beans and rice and rice and beans. I wouldn't go that far back. There's no reason to go crazy. You're not intense. You're just intentional. And I'm just saying, okay, I'm going to have a life, and then beyond that, do I put money in additional investments or do I put it on the house?

2:03:26I put it on the house. That's all I'm saying. Your baby steps four, five, and six. That's right where you are. Four and six because your kids are grown. But yeah. So well done, Rudy. Congratulations. Another millionaire we talked to. Yeah. That became a millionaire because of doing the stuff we teach. Yeah. Twice. And again, good income, not insane income. You know, just really consistent for a long period of time. It's what the scripture led off to. Exactly. And he said, I modeled that, and he did. That's exactly right. Diligent, prosper. Joe's in Toledo. Hey, Joe, what's up? Hey, what's going on, Dave?

2:04:00How's it going? Great, man. How can we help? Hey, man, just got a question. So my wife and I, so we're avid followers of your program. We just actually diligently paid off about$58K in debt. We sold our house. We could do that. We rent now. And boy, let me tell you, that was a lot. But we could finally breathe right now. But so my wife has a good job. She's a nurse practitioner. She works nine to five at home with the boys. I got four part-time jobs. And I'm only making around$30 ,000. What's your career feel? What are you trying to build a career in? Well, I'm passionate about audio production and stuff like that.

2:04:47I don't care what you're passionate about. I asked what you were trying to build a career in.

2:04:55I don't know yet. That's what I'm trying to figure out. Okay. I'm trying to figure that out. You have four sucky part-time jobs. Okay. Yeah. All right, Ken. Yeah, you know, when I meet somebody like you, we have very limited time, so we've got to cut right through here. So I want you to give me the heart answer, not think about this. what what what would you try if you knew you couldn't fail and and you knew you could do something else and you could make a hundred thousand yeah just what what's at the top of the heart there what is it say it songwriter that's it okay now so here's what we know it's very very hard to make it as a songwriter i've got several friends that are some of the best songwriters in nashville they're amazing so we got to then step back and okay that's what we would try if we couldn't fail, but I love music.

2:05:46There's a theme between the audio engineering, the songwriter. Yeah. There's a theme there. Okay. So again, to Dave's point, we got to work our way to this ultimate job. But right now, four jobs equaling$30 ,000 a year, it's not going to cut it. So I'm going to give you my book, The Proximity Principle. That's my gift to you. But you've got to figure out what can I... And finding the work you're wired to do. That's right. We'll give you the assessment as well. But The Proximity Principle first is, Who do I know in this field, just the music field, that I can sit with and see what a clear path might look like?

2:06:20This is just for the long term, but in the short term, you've got to stop working four jobs and find a job, a job, maybe two, that now we're making 60. Let's make more money in the short term while we figure out what our plan is for the long term. That's the progression here. So hang on the line. Take the assessment from Find the Work Your Wire to do. I think it's going to help you out a lot. That puts us our The Ramsey Show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.

2:07:12Thank you.