Shortcuts Won’t Help You Get Ahead With Money

23:22I mean, there possibly would be, but the question I have before I answer that is how quickly do you think you can pay off this$12 ,000? 10 months. Okay, so we're talking about we're trying to do the most to save ourselves maybe$140 a month in interest? Yeah, I think the most recent interest charge that was on that line of credit was like 220 bucks a month. Right, but you'll be actively paying it down. So the amount of interest that you're paying is also the actual amount is going down. I think that your energy is better spent in this way, paying off the debt and finding ways to pour more money on it.

24:08I think that's where the energy is better spent. And I say that for this reason. The why behind that is a lot of times when we there's two things that happen here. What kind of debt is it first? It's consumer debt. We got married in May of last year. So a lot of it is wedding wedding debt. Is it just on the credit card? It's just on one credit card or multiples? Yeah. So there's there's the twelve thousand that's bearing interest on the one credit card. We've done two balance transfers to two separate cards. One of them is completely paid off. The other one I recently just re-renewed my, what you call it, the offer to get 0 % on another balance transfer.

24:48George Kamel:So what's your total debt right now? 17. Okay. So the other reason that I don't love consolidating debt is because the way we teach debt payoff is the debt snowball method. And there is something to be said for having a couple of smaller debts that are separate versus one big debt. because when they're separate, you can focus all of your extra margin on one, get a quick win and actually feel good about what you've done. So instead of having one massive thing that's 17 ,000, it's kind of cool if you have it broken up. There's a 12 ,000 one, there's a$2 ,000 one, and there's a$3 ,000 one. Then you knock out the$2 ,000 one and there's psychology behind that that backs that up.

25:27And so for that reason, I kind of like keeping them separate. If you did consolidate them, George, there's worse things he could do. but I don't think it seems like that's where your energy is.

25:37George Kamel:So far, Joseph, everything you've said is a shell game of just moving the debt around, switching outfits for the debt. Let's move the debt in some stretchy pants so we feel a little more comfortable. I'm trying to get rid of the debt instead of moving around. Are you with me? You with me? We lost Joseph. Okay, there you are. I was like, come on, man. I was hoping for a big month. Ask him one more time. Are you with me? Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah, I understand what you said. I can tell you're a smart guy. You know your numbers. I just want you to, like Jade said, focus your energy in the right place, not calculating how much interest you can save, but instead calculating how fast can I get out of debt if I just throw the most at the payment.

26:19George Kamel:No more balance transfers, no more consolidation, no more lines of credit, no more Instagram ads, no debt relief, no debt settlement. the guy in the mirror is the solution to the debt not an outside force not another debt whack-a-mole you feel me he's there he feels you he's there in spirit his phone keeps cutting out i promise guys he is pumped up i'll play the role of joseph yes george i feel what you're saying i could just feel i was exhausted just listening to him talk about all the balance transfers he did to move all this around like dude in that time you could have just knocked it out he could have been done i mean if you're throwing two grand at the debt, you got 17.

26:57George Kamel:It's pretty easy math here. Let's just knock it out in, you know, what's eight months, nine months? You said 10 months. So all right, less than a year, it's gone. And we're not going to focus on interest rate. We're going to focus on the margin we're throwing at that principle. That's the goal here. Thank you for the call. Stephen is in Fort Worth, Texas up next. Stephen, welcome to the show. How can we help? I think you're taking my call. I'll try to keep it quick. So my wife and I are having a baby in June. We've already got like our start, start mode. We've got 16 ,000 in a high yield savings account for that.

27:29George Kamel:We've, since we already have that saved up, we've still been paying on my wife's student loans. We've paid about$75 ,000 since last June. And we are on track to pay off the last$20 ,000 by the time the baby is born. Um, however, I just got a job offer that would require me to move to another city. And the house that we bought four years ago was a bit of a fixer-upper and we paused our renovations to do the baby steps properly. So we feel like there's some work that's going to have to be done before we can actually sell it. And we're not sure if we should continue making big payments on the student loan or hit pause on that right now so that we can cash flow anything as long as it would have a good ROI that makes sense that would actually increase our equity.

28:16I mean, I got to tell you, I think I'd hit pause on both of these things since this baby is on the way.

28:23George Kamel:How soon is this job stuff happening? Is that for sure? Like I have a contingent offer. They're running a background check right now. We still haven't established the start date. They already said that they would be willing to let me do a hybrid sort of thing until I'm ready to move after the baby's born. Oh, that's helpful. That buys you some time. Yeah, so the move would probably be July or August. What type of work needs to be done on the house, and how much money do you think is at stake if you do or don't do it? It would be probably several thousand dollars if we – because we did most of the work already ourselves, and we're kind of exhausted of that, so we need to have a contractor do it.

29:07George Kamel:It's things like updating the flooring, a little bit of painting, and then potentially even renovating the master bathroom that's like original 50s. Oh, boy, that's a lot. Is that like$10 ,000,$20 ,000? What do you think the real number is? Everything together could be that. Like I said, we need to talk to a realtor about specifically which items would increase the value the most. But, yeah, it would probably be anywhere from$5 ,000 to$20 ,000 total. I don't see how you can do a bathroom and floors for$5 ,000, but maybe check those numbers. I mean, if we didn't do the bathroom, it would be$5 ,000.

29:42If we didn't do the bathroom, it would be$20 ,000. Okay, got you. I was about to say in 1999. I think that how long would it take you to save up the money to do that work? uh so we'll be getting uh 7 500 of miscellaneous expenses paid by the company as part of the relocation package on top of what they calculate it would cost to actually move um okay but you'll need that money to move so that's already earmarked for whatever whatever they pay us to move plus miscellaneous expenses is another.

30:21George Kamel:They'll cover that too. Anyway. Right. But I'm saying with your own cash money, because the money that they're paying you to move, trust me, you're going to need that money to move. So I would keep that earmarked for what it's earmarked for. And now we have to set aside and understand what the timeline is going to be for us to do these renovations. How long would it take to save up 20 to$25 ,000? And really just, I think now you are in stork mode. We're pushing pause on it. But during that pause, let's really plot this out and map it out with a timeline. How much do we need to save? How much time is it going to take to save it?

30:52Can we work as we go? And really just create a plan that's going to give you guys a lot of peace.

30:57George Kamel:Yeah, and iron out the exact start date and push it as far as you can to buy yourself as much time to get the renovations done, get the baby here, get yourself in a good financial position.

31:23If you're at the point where you think bankruptcy is your only option, stop for a minute. You might have another way out. Guardian Litigation Group. Most debt relief programs sell you on the illusion of protection. But a crappy legal plan tacked on as an upsell doesn't actually defend you when you get sued. It just leaves you confused and exposed. Guardian is different. They're not some call center. They're real attorneys. And with Guardian, you're assigned an attorney from day one. That means if your creditor sues, you're not scrambling and you're not hit with surprise legal fees. Now listen, I'm always going to tell you the best way out of debt is the old-fashioned way.

32:02Clean up the mess and pay it off. But if bankruptcy is staring you in the face, Guardian gives you a legitimate alternative. They've helped over 55 ,000 people settle more than$600 million in debt. So before you make a decision that follows you for years, go to guardianlit.com slash Ramsey. That's guardianlit.com slash Ramsey. Attorney advertising. Results may vary and no specific outcome is guaranteed.

32:40George Kamel:Ryan is on the line in Kansas City. Ryan, welcome to The Ramsey Show. Hi, thanks for having me, guys. Absolutely. What's your question? So I have a financial advisor, and we were kind of going through the baby steps, and I was kind of telling them where I wanted to go with the baby steps. And I was getting my 401k investments up to about 15%. I was at 13. My wife was at 12. and he told me, hey, have you ever thought that you might have too much in retirement and you might want to live a little bit more freely now? And so he suggested that we kind of knock it down to 8 % because my company matches my 8 % at 11%.

33:23And so he suggested that that's too much money going into retirement and we should live more freely currently. And I was hoping to get your guys' opinion on, is this the right move or should I still be pushing to get done with baby step four?

33:38George Kamel:Wow, I've never heard of a financial advisor telling you to invest less. I mean, are you guys already financially independent? Do you have millions of dollars? Yeah, what do you have? Okay, so we don't have millions. We've got 350 put away in our 401ks between my wife and I. We make combined, I make 111, she makes 118 a year, And then I also get$24 ,000 from disability from the military service. And we have two kids. And I kind of want to start saving for my kids' college fund. And that's why, because I've got a 7-year-old and a 4-year-old. And I'm scared that I'm not going to be able to just cash flow that for them.

34:19I want to start building 529. That's kind of where all this came in. And you don't have the margin to do the investing that you're doing and put aside some? You guys make a great income. well thank you and uh right now we're kind of struggling to do both why something that that means something is out of proportion yeah lifestyle creep there it is thank you for the

34:45George Kamel:self-awareness ryan we didn't have to pull it out of you well let's go back to the so we've got lifestyle creep going on george and let's also go back to and answer the question from the the advisor. So I love the fact that you have an 8 % match that kicks in at 11%. I think that's very cool. And I think that that's gravy because the truth is you could switch jobs and there not be a match to that extent. And I just love the idea of when you're in baby step four, understanding what it feels like to flex your muscle of investing 15%. And that way, if it ever goes away, you're just used to like, this is what I do.

35:19This is what I do. And you can consider the match just a really awesome bonus in the benefit that it actually is for you building wealth. So I actually wouldn't take the advice of the advisor. If you truly are on baby step four, I think that you need to do baby step four and sock that money away. Now to that point, if it's tight, I'm looking at other areas on the budget, George, to see what's going on here.

35:43George Kamel:So 38K is about 15 % of your gross income based on my calculations. So that's how much we want to be putting away into tax advantage retirement accounts, regardless of the match. So that's step one. Once you have that going, then we move on to college savings and set a goal. You can use an investment calculator on our website and go, all right, if we put$400 away for the older one,$300 away for the younger one, we're going to have this much by the time they turn 18. Plus, we might need to cash flow some. They get scholarships, yada, yada. So that's where you form a game plan for that. And then you guys also have a mortgage?

36:21We do, yep. And that's$2 ,040,$2 ,044 a month.

36:28George Kamel:Okay, that's very reasonable considering your take-home pay, which I imagine, is your take-home pay like$15 ,000 a month? It's a little shy of that. It's$14 ,000. It's a little over$14 ,000. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfect. And then you get those bonuses at the end of the year? So now I'm going, okay, how do we budget this$14 ,000 in such a way that we're able to invest for our kids first before we have every little luxury in life? And my guess is you can find some wiggle room and fun money in$14 ,000. Yeah, yeah, you're right. And we're trying to – so we just – I just downloaded every dollar, and I finished my first month last month in April.

37:08That's great. So we just started budgeting to identify where we could – when everything was red and I overspent. Not the best, but it helped. It was eye-opening. I think it's the best way to say it. It was eye-opening to see where the money was actually going versus where we thought it was going. So you saw the lifestyle creep happening.

37:30George Kamel:But the crazy part is you were doing that already, but just delusionally instead of intentionally. So now you know, now you can do better. All right, we need to cut in this area. Here's where the money leaks happened. We thought we were spending$200 eating out. It was really$500. We need to ratchet down on that. So now you and your wife can create a game plan and spit shake and stick to it and go, all right, we're going to cut these areas down, ramp this area up, add this investment. And what I do, Ryan, is I auto-invest it to my kid's 529 plan so that the paycheck hits. You don't even know. I don't even see that money.

38:02George Kamel:It happens on payday. So by the time I have a chance to even look at the bank account, the money's already building wealth for me. That's the kind of mindset you need to get into is being so proactive that whatever is left and whatever the fun stuff is, that floats to the bottom. And the priorities are at the top. And to George's point, and that's such a good point, George, for anybody who's listening. Whatever you can automate, you automate your 401k. Obviously, that's coming out of your check automatically. 529, coming out of the check automatically. If you're putting money aside for sinking funds, it's coming out.

38:30And when you do that, then when you actually receive your check into your account, you're already used to what that amount is and you don't miss. Does that make sense? You don't miss the money that's gone out.

38:41George Kamel:You force the boundaries to do the smart thing that you know is good for you. You force yourself to eat the vegetables first. Okay, so really quickly, especially because, George, you're on the phone and you always use the retirement calculator. I was using the retirement calculator on Ramsey Solutions and I plugged it in. I plugged all of our stats in. And it's showing that in retirement, it could be up to like, with the 11.8 % that you suggest, it could be up to$22 to$24 million in retirement. That's, to me, I feel like if I sacrificed a little bit of that now, it would make sense because I could pay, you know, I feel like I'm going to be fine in retirement anyways, but getting kids through college might be tight.

39:24We still think drive to the 15 % and then just focus on the budget, crack it down and go through with the 529s as well. The reason, okay, I would love to talk about that a little bit because I do think if you had called in today and you were like, hey, we've been stocking money away. We've got$4 million, you know, and you had accumulated a certain amount of wealth. Well, give me a little bit, Jade. I would have definitely felt the feeling of, do we have to be quite so intense? I mean, we're going to have so much money. I could understand that, but you're not quite there yet. Therefore, the choices that you make today really, really matter.

40:05And how you craft your lifestyle really, really matters. And where you are, where you're making this really great income, it's so easy to get sloppy because you do have the cash flow and you can, And you know what I'm saying? Like your income can kind of cover up things. But the truth is, if you're making this income and the margin is not there for you to do the baby steps, that is a huge red flag that, man, we do need to tighten it up. If I looked at my budget today, George, and I said, for some reason, there's just not 15 % there to invest, you'd look at me like I was on the crazy train. Like, what in the world are you doing?

40:37George Kamel:The truth is, I'll find it. It just might be hidden in a debt payment or lifestyle creep. Yeah, it's hidden in DoorDash. Yeah, absolutely. And so for you, Ryan, I think you have the opportunity to really look at your lifestyle and put the correct boundaries in the correct place. And that's something that's going to serve you well beyond this, of being able to have the discipline of saying, I know when I'm off the rails and here's what it looks like. So it's more of a philosophical thing for me than a, if you don't do this, does that make sense? You're going to have plenty of money and there's a lot worse than you could do.

41:09Okay. So hear me say that.

41:11George Kamel:The other part of this is there are a lot of assumptions made. Like it's fun to punch it into a calculator and go, cool, that's how much I'm going to have. But we also don't know what the returns will be, what inflation will be. Will your income stay this high forever? What if there's a health diagnosis? What if one person wants to stay home? And so you have to factor in a whole lot of options. So I like to be a little bit pessimistic about the future to force myself to do smart things. and if you have too much money, that's just more impact you can have on your family, your community, the things you are passionate about.

41:41George Kamel:So I wouldn't be too worried about having too much, but I think creating the habit of at least investing 15%, especially with your low mortgage compared to your income, I think you can find this money easily and it'll be a great exercise for you and your wife to be a little less sloppy with the spending because you can out earn your stupidity with the money you guys make. You know, the money leaks can happen and you don't really feel them. So adding some friction back in and putting your money where it matters, man, you're going to feel so good. I think so too. Being proactive and intentional instead of just going, eh, we'll be all right.

42:11George Kamel:What's a little DoorDash here, a little DoorDash there?

42:30you know one of the first things i discovered working in the financial world is how absolutely devastating it is when the breadwinner of a family dies and there's too little life insurance or none at all. Grieving families are suddenly left behind, scrambling to pay bills and trying to make ends meet. I also discovered that there are a lot of rip-offs in the life insurance world, like that whole life crap posing as an investment opportunity. What you need is level term life insurance, usually 10 to 12 times your income, which is the smartest, most affordable way to protect your family. The key is finding an independent broker who represents a ton of companies and works for you, not for the insurance company.

43:13This is exactly what my friend Jeff Zander and his team at Zander Insurance are all about. They shop the term life companies to find you the best options, and they've been around for over 95 years. So you know they'll be there when you need them. Zander is the real deal, and that's why they've handled all my personal insurance for over 25 years. I trust them, and you can too. Visit Zander.com for instant online quotes, or for a more personal touch, give them a call at 800-356-4282.

43:56George Kamel:Welcome back to The Ramsey Show and the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio. I'm George Camel, here with Jade Warshaw, taking your calls at 888-825-5225. Max is in Minneapolis up next. What's going on, Max? Hey, George. Hey, Jade. How are you guys? We're doing great. How can we help today? Hey. Yeah, just I had a quick question for you guys. My wife and I are in baby step two, and I just received a pretty significant job offer. I'm just, I'm really struggling with the idea of leaving my current employer and just I really don't know how to how to leave an employer that's been so loyal to me um I just was wondering what your thoughts were wow what's the um pay now and what will you be making um currently I'm I'm an electrician so I'm an apprentice um I'm making 28 an hour right now um and the new job offer at the other place would be 50 an hour whoa wow that's a pretty serious upgrade man that's almost doubling your income yeah by by a lot so explain to us the the trouble that you're having with um so it's not the move it's not the job it's strictly man i'm loyal to these people they've been good to me how do i tell is that is that it yeah that's that's pretty much it my one of the biggest things that he helps my wife and I with, um, he owns duplexes, um, in town and he gives us 750 off a month on rent just for working for him.

45:28George Kamel:So that's a pretty, that helps us a lot just with our living, living expenses. Um, and I mean, part of being an electrician to become a journeyman, which, um, is the next step, um, you have to take a pretty big test and he takes his time out of Saturday mornings to come into work outside of work hours to help me study and help me understand what the test is going to be like. And he just does a lot for me and gives me a van to drive. It sounds like he's a friend. It sounds like he's just as much a good friend and a good person as he is a good boss. Mentor, super generous. That's awesome. How long have you been there?

46:06George Kamel:Five years. Okay. Is it fair to say, let's, because I'm kind of going somewhere with the idea that he's not just a boss, he's been a good friend. So if a friend called you up and told you some really great news, how would you feel? Even if it kind of affected you, but you can tell, man, this is really good for them. How would you feel? I would feel very excited. For them. Were you out there like looking for this job? Not really. I just have other friends who are in a similar position who had already taken before me and there's just more to come to they're just they're looking for people they're looking for guys guys that are hungry to work and yeah well i what i wouldn't do is just stay in it for loyalty i would have the conversation with a whole lot of gratitude and let him know exactly how you feel man you honestly changed my life over the last five years, the way you've mentored me, the generosity you've had toward me and my family, the things you've done for us outside of this place, it has impacted me, and I'm going to take that with me forever.

47:15George Kamel:But there's an opportunity that is going to change our family's finances and help us get out of debt, help us build wealth, and we're going to take that opportunity. But I want to let you know that this place means the world to me, and I hope that we can remain friends. How would he handle that? I think he would handle that pretty well. I think I'm just a little too nervous about what the reaction will be. Yeah. Well, I think it's probably worse in your head than what's – I don't think he's going to yell at you and go, after everything I did for you, this is how you treat me. I mean if he knew you were going to double your income, he should be happy for you as a mentor.

47:52George Kamel:The reason he did all this was because he believed in you and he wanted you to grow as a person, as an electrician, and a natural byproduct of that is when you grow, you outgrow. Yeah. And I think mature adults understand that nothing lasts forever, you know, and few things last for a really, really, really, really, really, really long time, right? So I think that's just part of life. To George's point, you grow and sometimes you outgrow and you can move on from different spaces and that's okay. I think judging by the way you're describing this guy, I think he's going to understand that. Yeah.

48:28George Kamel:I would be more worried if he was like a toxic boss. I got to bring him this news and he's a narcissistic jerk and he's not going to take kindly to it. But a great example is our friend Ken Coleman, who recently left Ramsey. Perfect example. And he was here 12 years, friend to Dave's before he got here, friend to Dave's after he left. And he had a very honest conversation with Dave and led with a whole lot of gratitude because, I mean, Ken and I, you know, we grew up here, I feel like, especially me. And I kind of took over for Ken when I started here as a host and MC. And so my journey and Ken's intertwined.

48:59George Kamel:And as he shared it, all you, like he was dripping with gratitude for the way Dave has treated him, the team here. And nobody felt any level of, wow, I thought Ken was loyal. We know he was loyal up until the day he left. And now he's just a loyal friend. Yeah. And so I think you're going to have to, this is like the first breakup of other breakups. And the first one, the first one hits the deepest. First cut is the deepest. I knew you were going there. I didn't want to sing it, but I wanted to. Just know that. Sheryl Crow. So, Max, I think you have the emotional maturity to have this conversation, and luckily, I think he has the emotional maturity to handle it.

49:37George Kamel:And I'm honestly just so happy for you. And I'm not even your friend. I mean, I guess I'm a new friend, but if he finds out you're going to double your income, he can't pay you that, right? It's not like he's underpaying you right now. No, I don't think he can match that. Exactly. And I think that's a fair – you're not doing this to try to manipulate him into paying you more because he can't. And so therefore it's not like a tactic you're using. You're just changing your family tree right now as a young electrician who has a lot of room for growth. And I think you're going to find that if he's a real one, he's going to stick with you as a friend in the long haul, and he's going to be cheering you on from the sidelines.

50:13Now, are you moving to take this job or are you staying put?

50:17George Kamel:It's union, so I kind of pick where I want to work. but there's per diem and stuff that comes with it. Okay. And are you going to choose to move or are you going to choose to stay put? I will stay where I'm at. Okay. And are you still going to live in the duplex that your old boss offers you? So I'm locked in for a year. He hired out a management company, so it's technically through a management company. It's not necessarily just... You're not dealing with him directly. Okay. I wanted to know how that's going to – I could maybe see some – Is that the awkward part? Yeah, some awkwardness there.

50:54You need to get out.

50:55George Kamel:Okay. How much debt do you have left? We have$22 ,000 in consumer debt. Awesome. And you're going to be making$100 ,000 on your own when you take this new job. Yeah. Our take-home pay with this new income would be around$10 ,000 a month. Woo. Like that. Man, that's pretty wild, which means you're going to get rid of this debt fast, build up an emergency fund fast, be investing double what you would have been. And I think that's an amazing feat at your age to be in that place. And nobody would fault you for it. Nope. Yeah, that's my goal. Man, and if you want, here's what I would do. I would practice the conversation.

51:34George Kamel:Like you can write a letter first to kind of get all the words out there because when you start the actual conversation, it's going to be like a word vomit and you're going to be nervous and it's going to be emotional. And so just knowing ahead of time how you want it to go and kind of knowing the flow and the arc. I want to start with the generosity. I want to then enter with the opportunity end with how grateful I am for this friendship and then you guys can get into logistics and I think quickly you'll find his facial expression will be that of maybe surprise maybe a little bit like oh man but then at the end happiness for a friend thanks for the call man

52:44If you run a business, you already know this. bad information leads to bad decisions. And right now, AI is everywhere. But AI is only as good as the data behind it. The best AI is built on the best data. That's why I recommend NetSuite. NetSuite is the number one AI cloud ERP and more than 43 ,000 businesses run on it, including us here at Ramsey Solutions. Their AI isn't bolted on, it's built in, and it connects everything that runs your business. Accounting, inventory, customer data, all in one place. Because when your numbers are connected, AI actually works like it's supposed to. NetSuite's AI helps flag cash flow problems, spot inventory issues, close your books faster, and cut down on manual reporting.

53:40If your revenue is at least seven figures, go to netsuite.com slash Ramsey for a free product tour. That's netsuite.com slash Ramsey.

54:03George Kamel:Joseph is in Tampa. Up next, Joseph, welcome to the show. Hey, how's it going? Great. How can we help today? I don't really know how to put it in a question, but I have a lot of debt. I'm not really sure where to go. And honestly, I just feel like I'm failing my fiance and our two kids and I just need help. Wow. Those are some fighting words. How much debt do you have?

54:35Total$77 ,607. Okay.

54:39George Kamel:What kind of debt is that? Break it down for us. It's$34 ,000 in credit cards, personal loans, and a broken rental lease. About$29 ,000 in a pickup and about$14 ,600 in student loans. Okay. So the overall is, I want to get out of this. I want to let go of the stress. I want to do more for my family financially. Yeah. Sorry. It's all right. You take your time. This is, I mean, there's a lot here. I can tell this has been weighing on you a long time. Yeah, it's really hard. It's really hard. what um what caused this was there a an incident that kind of caused a snowball in the wrong direction or is this just a couple of decades of you know just not being intentional and just letting life happen um so i'm only 25 and it i mean i don't want to make excuses for myself but i grew up and watched my parents be really bad with money um have a lot of debt and they still do um so i mean i didn't really know what a debit card was grew up growing up i knew what a credit card was you know i understand okay so the last few years you know just making dumb decisions and and now i've matured a little bit and realized that i messed up and i gotta fix it so you you're working what are you earning yes um i don't know the exact i think it's almost 71 000 a year okay Okay.

56:21What does it look like a month? What's your paychecks look like every time you bring them home? About$1 ,200 a week. Okay. $1 ,200 a week. And what about your fiance? She stays home with the kids. Okay. And how old are the kids? Our daughter is almost four and our son just turned two. Okay. And is there a wedding in sight or? we've been thinking about going to the courthouse but we've also kind of agreed that we need to tackle some of this debt first before we can start saving for a wedding okay i would okay what are your expenses look like right now you guys have um so everything that i'm actively paying on comes out to$1 ,870 a month.

57:14That's just the debt? No, that's just like my, my pickup payment and then all my bills. Okay. That's not the, that's not your full. Are you guys renting right now?

57:27George Kamel:We are currently with my in-laws right now. Okay. So you have very little housing expenses, which is good. Yes. So you have a little bit of margin right now to throw extra on your smallest debt? The way I've got it calculated, and I could have it calculated wrong, is I have about$250 a week left over. So$1 ,000 a month to throw extra on the smallest debt. Have you built a budget yet? Because if you don't have every dollar, we need to get you in that. Because I think it's going to give you a better visibility into all of this. Have you tried that? I have downloaded EveryDollar before. I can't tell you that I've used it.

58:09I just have a piece of paper in front of me with the cost of all my bills and how it comes out each month. Before we get off the line, we're going to make sure you have EveryDollar because it's going to help you in so many ways. Number one, it's going to give you a clear picture of what your income is, what your expenses are, and it's going to help you with the most important thing next. And that's what you need to focus on. and just being able to see once you plug in, okay, here's my income, here's all the expenses, here's how much margin I have per month. Looking at it on a weekly basis is helpful, but really seeing it for the month and seeing those lump sums is even more helpful.

58:47And I think that's gonna give you a clearer picture on what's actually going on. And then you'll know, okay, I have$800 or I have$1 ,000 every single month that I can throw at the smallest debt, which in this case is the student loan. But I have questions about this$29 ,000 truck. Can you tell us more about that? Yeah, I was 22. Thought I was doing well for myself. And I mean, at the time, it wasn't the worst, but I'm doing way better now. And I decided that probably right about, I actually talked to my buddy. He's a car salesman, but he said he can blue book it at right about 28. So I owe just about what it's worth.

59:30Okay, so if I were in your shoes, I'd be offloading that truck immediately. Do you have any money saved anywhere? I have$400 in a savings account. Okay, so here's the plan. I'm going to give you a step-by-step plan. Thing one, I want you going by a credit union this weekend, and I want you to say, I need$5 ,000. And that's going to be the money that you spend on your used vehicle. It's going to be a beater. It's going to suck. It's going to have a lot of miles on it, but it's going to be like a Toyota or something that runs forever. Okay. So that's thing one. And then thing two is you need to get$1 ,000 saved.

1:00:06So you need$600 more in a hurry. So I want you going through your house, you and your fiance, looking at every single thing that you can buy or post or, you know what I'm saying, to sell because you need$1 ,000 saved. That's baby step one. And just having cleared out that truck and now having the truck payment back, because what were you paying on the truck?

1:00:26George Kamel:nine hundred thirty dollars and that's without the insurance that yeah my insurance i'd cover my fiance's as well as 330 yeah so you having that like 1200 bucks freed up on top of a thousand that you said you can throw the debt now we're moving you see what's happening here we just freed up 2200 to throw your smallest debt right which is over 25 grand a year so worst case if you just did that nothing else you're done in three years so i want to show you there is a way out if you just get really focused and follow this plan exactly as we teach it. If you go, well, I want to just take parts of it.

1:01:00George Kamel:It's not going to work. You got to go all in. Now let's go back to the fiance. So you don't have the money saved for the wedding. Tell me about the courthouse. Can you guys just go down to the courthouse and get married legally so it's done and done? I think so. I mean, I don't really know all the rules. Why wouldn't you? It's just It's just a certificate. It's just something you both sign. Okay. It's a marriage license. She told me in the past that even if we do a courthouse wedding, that she said she would still want a dress and a photographer and a tux. Here's what I'm getting at. And this is what, here's where my mind is going.

1:01:37You guys want to be married. You have a family together. I would love for you guys to be able to link arms on this and attack this together because it's for both of your future. you called in here sounding like you just have a pit in your stomach it's because you're looking at the future with this woman and with your kids and you want to do better for that right and so what better what better way to start than to fully commit now today you don't have the money for you know a big party if she wants to put on her best dress and go down to the courthouse i think that's great or if you guys simply want to say today this is kind of our secret and we're going and we're signing the paper nobody really has to know about it this is just so that legally we have the protections to go all in on this together.

1:02:22And then after, you know, in a year or however long, once we calculate that this is done, then we can throw the big party and we can tell all of our friends. And it can be this funny story that we tell, hey, we were married all along. We just didn't, right? That's fine. But for today, what I want is the security of you knowing that you can talk to her and include her in this and her income now counts towards this. And now it's just not your debt, it's her debt too. And you guys are actually beginning a life together. Okay. And I don't want you to feel the pressure of, I've got to clean this up first before you got children.

1:02:58George Kamel:Yeah. That's a great why, by the way, Joseph, one of the best whys is those kids and that woman who you love. And so I want to circle back to what you said at the beginning that you're failing your family. Well, let me tell you this, failure is an event. It's not an identity. Failure is a comma. It's not a coma. So don't let it be. That's not who you are. You made some mistakes at 22. Welcome to the club, man. Now it's who am I going to be tomorrow and the next day and the next day. You live that out. We're going to hook you up with every dollar to walk you through it and my book, Breaking Free from Broke.

1:03:30George Kamel:I want you to call us back when you're married, when you're debt free. We want to celebrate every single milestone with you, buddy.

1:03:42Thank you.

1:03:54George Kamel:Hey, you guys, did you know that there are thousands of data brokers whose entire business is collecting and selling personal information? Things like your home address, your phone number, and even your relatives' names. You guys, that is just crazy, but that is why I use DeleteMe. Because those companies that pull information from public records, social media, and all kinds of other places. Then suddenly, all that information shows up on random websites. And removing it yourself means going site by site, filling out forms, and hoping they actually take it down. It takes hours, and then it can even pop up somewhere else again.

1:04:32But Delete Me's team of privacy experts removes your personal information from hundreds of

1:04:39George Kamel:those data broker sites. And within a week, you'll get a report showing what they have found and what they have removed. And they keep scanning and cleaning up your data year round. So take back control of your privacy. Go to joindeliteme.com slash Ramsey and get 20 % off your annual plan. That's joindeliteme.com slash Ramsey.

1:05:17George Kamel:Ask Ramsey is our free AI tool that's built and trained on proven Ramsey principles. And today we're going to break down the most asked questions from the week. A lot of questions about buying and selling a house, investing and budgeting. But the top question was around retirement savings accounts. Yeah. The specific question was, should I only contribute to a 401k or switch to a Roth IRA? Good question. Juicy nerdy debate. Very juicy. There's a lot of variables here. So number one, if you're still paying off debt, you pause all investing. So this is a question for later. If you have paid off all your debt, you get three to six months of expenses saved, then you should be investing 15 % of your gross household income into tax advantage retirement accounts like 401ks and Roth IRAs.

1:05:59George Kamel:So to start, we say match first. So if you have an employer match inside of a 401k, then take that first. Free money. Then you can go to a Roth IRA. next. Finally, if you run out of money, like you max out the Roth IRA, you can go back to your traditional 401k until you hit 15%. I love that. We call that rule of thumb here, match beats Roth beats traditional. And part of that, like we said, yeah, match is free money. That's free money that your company is giving you. You don't want to miss out on that. Yes, of course. And then of course, you know, the Roth IRA, that's going to give you the tax-free growth and tax-free withdrawal in retirement.

1:06:36We love a Roth. If you have a Roth 401k, go like ham on that immediately. And then of course, if you don't have that, you just do the Roth IRA and then you can go back to that 401k traditional, which helps you get to your 15 % goal.

1:06:50George Kamel:So if you want to play around with your numbers, your situation, have a conversation with Ask Ramsey. It'll help you determine how much of your household income needs to go into each retirement account. And you can ask all of your questions today at RamseySolutions.com or click the link in the description if you're on podcast or YouTube. Stephanie is in Detroit up next. Stephanie, what's up? Hi. I am graduating from medical school next week with a lot of debt. My question is, do you think making minimum income-driven payments to qualify for the public service loan forgiveness is a smart strategy, or am I taking too much risk relying on a government program potentially accruing more interest if the program is canceled?

1:07:35George Kamel:Very thoughtfully worded, Stephanie. I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, I'm, you know, people hear us on the show and they go, wow, these people really hate student loan forgiveness. No, we're just pro people taking control of their life. It's not even a responsibility thing. There's nothing wrong with the public student loan forgiveness program. It's just really hard to actually get it done. And it's a long time and you're still making payments the whole way. And you're also limiting your income because you kind of have to work in a certain place in order to get that forgiveness. And if that changes, well, you're out.

1:08:10George Kamel:And so that's the risk that I'm more worried about, not it being canceled entirely, but more just you don't know what the future holds. And I don't want to limit you. If you get an amazing job offer in the private sector, but you can't take it because you have these golden handcuffs, that's a real bummer. But truthfully, the data on it, I mean, the data on it is not good. And I'll just tell you right now, at this point, like currently, only 5.5 % of the applications are approved for forgiveness. So that means 93 % of the applications are denied. That's a lot. You're telling me there's a chance.

1:08:46That's a horrible shot to risk how many years of your life doing a job that maybe you don't want to do just to possibly get the chance at this. So how much student loans do you have? I have 300, about 315 ,000. which is a lot. I'm starting residency in June at a place that does qualify, and I'll have about six years of training that would go towards the 10 years. So that's kind of where, like, you know, I'd only have four years as a practicing physician elsewhere that would need to finish to qualify.

1:09:25George Kamel:And what do you think you'll be making? um after fellowship i'll probably be making between 350 and 400 that's fantastic excellent i mean well here's the napkin math on that if you can just for a short time let's say we can go both ways let's say you did it four years you made the minimum payment so you still paid into it but maybe you got the rest forgiven after four years cool we did it let's look at the other side where you are in full control and you just attack it with a vengeance and keep living like a broke college student in residency. Well, if you could put, you know, if you could live off, let's say 75 or 80 of that 350 to 400, right.

1:10:04That leaves you with 300 grand.

1:10:06George Kamel:You could throw at the debts. You'd be done in 18 months. Right. Instead of hoping that four years from now or whatever it is that it's, it's paid off. So either way, I think you could try it, but I think I like the odds of Stephanie more than the government program working out. Right. I guess we're just, I'm engaged in one of the things we wonder is, should we be putting more money towards the loan right now? Or should we try to like buy a home and, you know, pay a mortgage? I just think that's kind of where we go. Listen, we had a dentist call in earlier, similar question, similar amount of debt.

1:10:46And he had the same struggle. It's like, hey, I'm getting to that point in my life. I want to start a family. I want to buy a house. I also have this crippling debt. And don't forget, you know, with the mortgage, you're taking on debt. You're taking on more risk. You're taking on more financial responsibility in your life. And when I hear somebody that has$315 ,000 of debt, and then you say, oh, and I'm thinking of buying a house on top of that, that just feels like the ultimate stressor because now you're cutting into your margin because home ownership, George, I don't have to tell you. It's one expense after another.

1:11:17George Kamel:I mean, especially as a newlywed couple. Yes. There's no reason you guys have to jump into a home. I mean, just rent for a year. Enjoy your newlywed life without all of the stresses of home ownership. You've got time. There's some blessings in there. But if you do it with a huge mortgage you can't afford, which, by the way, you'll have close to nothing down, which is going to make your mortgage huge on top of the student loan debt. Even if the payment is income driven and it seems low, it's sort of a farce. because it's 315 grand, no matter what the payment is every month. That's a good point.

1:11:48And if you really think about this, Stephanie, the house that you would choose to purchase on a$400 ,000 income, if you had no debt, the house that you would choose is very different than the one that you would choose if you had$315 ,000 in debt. Am I wrong or am I right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I think it's worth it. It behooves you to wait on this. Get the debt paid off. by then maybe you're even earning a little bit more money and your then husband will be working that's right yeah he's what he works um what's he doing we you know he works as a breast salesman um so he does well for himself we're just not planning on combining anything until we're married next year but think about that let me walk you through that if you get debt free let's say before

1:12:37George Kamel:you're married let's say you follow this in 18 months or whatever you do this now obviously you need to be out of residency making that kind of money. So you'll probably be married by then. But if you can pay off the debt in 18 months, 315 grand, then you can save up another 315 grand in 18 months. Yeah, well, my income won't be that for another six years, though. Yeah, so that's a ways away. So even when you're married, though, when you combine incomes, once you're married, you'll still be able to start knocking out this debt, even before you're making that kind of money. And so it still tells me, I'm just saying within three years of being married, four years, you're probably going to be debt free with an emergency fund and a down payment.

1:13:15George Kamel:But you just have to stay focused. It'll happen. You'll be shocked at how fast you'll move once you guys are married and you have two people working toward the same goal. Now that's hoping that he's on the same page as you, that you guys have the same money values, principles, goals. That's going to cause you to move so much faster. And I have great faith that you're going to be just fine. but I would focus on, on paying it off because of your situation. I think the upside is there for you just to knock it out and not have that carrot dangling of forgiveness and then to not get it because you messed up the application or you got a private sector job.

1:13:51Yeah.

1:13:52George Kamel:So I wouldn't do it personally, but I'm not mad at you if you do it. And don't take my word for it. Stephanie, get, get on the, on the interwebs, get on chat GPT and look it up for yourself and you're going to, you will be astounded at the numbers and at the data on this. and you're going to go, oh, crap. She was right. I wish she wasn't. Listen, I wish I wasn't right. I wish that this was a guaranteed move for you and it would happen and it'd be a light switch, but that's just, unfortunately, that's just not the way it is. Yeah. Especially when I think the problem is people are now going into massive amounts of debt without really feeling it.

1:14:26George Kamel:That's right. Because they're going, well, I could probably get it forgiven later. Hopefully, fingers crossed. Well, what it's hiding under is the rate has actually increased, but when you say, oh, we've gone from 3 % or we've gone from 1 % to 3 % or 3 % to 5%, it's still 5%. That's terrible. Now it's five out of 100 people who are going to get it. Oof.

1:15:28George Kamel:All right, Jay, let's talk about insurance. Everybody needs it. Nobody wants to talk about it. And it can be hard trying to find pros who aren't just looking to make a buck, trying to find agents who know their stuff. But we've got you. Ramsey Trusted Insurance Pros are vetted and coached to make sure they're market experts who have your best interests at heart. So go to RamseySolutions.com slash coverage to find the type of insurance you're looking for and connect with a Ramsey Trusted agent. Amen. Love to see that. I just upped my life insurance last night and I felt real good about it. Went over to Xander, got the quote.

1:16:00George Kamel:Yeah. Filled out the application. It was a breeze. Five minutes on my phone. Love that. And I slept a little bit better at night. Do you have to do another appointment? I think I need some blood work done. That's the not fun part. A little bit. Well, one time they hit a valve. I didn't know I had those, but apparently we all do. And so I never gave blood after that. Let me just say that. That was painful. Somebody just passed out whilst they were driving listening to this. Sorry, guys. My bad. My bad. All right. Let's go to the phones. Blake is in Chattanooga, Tennessee. What's going on, Blake?

1:16:35Hi, thank you guys for taking my call. Sure.

1:16:37George Kamel:How can we help? I have a question about retirement. So right now, my husband and I, we're on baby steps four, five, and six. We are not hitting the 15 % of our income, and I'm not sure where to go. So we already maxed out our IRAs. We're doing 12 % in my husband's 401k through work, which is about$12 ,000 or$13 ,000. grand. And that does only brings us to 27 ,000 on a low year. Like if we take a low month, 30 grand a month, roughly, that's a low month for us. That's 360 grand a year, right? We're coming up pretty short on 15 % for the year. So good problem. I love that. So what is your gross household income for the year?

1:17:18George Kamel:Give me a ballpark on that. Um, the lowest it would be, is about 360, but probably somewhere closer to, I'm hoping, 450 this year. Woo-hoo! So you're maxing out the 401k. You're each doing a Roth IRA. You're maxing out those. Are you doing an HSA as well? No, we do not do an HSA. Okay. I love this problem. I mean, I can tell you, George, you can say what you do. I can say what I would do. I'm going off of that$450 ,000 number, and we're going to go 15 % of that is$67 ,500. Okay. So if you both max out a 401k, is that what I'm hearing? No, I don't have a 401k, just him. Okay. So we're going to do max out his 401k, I believe.

1:18:03George Kamel:Is that$24 ,500 this year? Yes. Okay. So we've got that done. Now, both of you can do a backdoor Roth IRA because your income is too high for a Roth. Yes, we do that. You do that. So that's$15 ,000,$7 ,500 a piece? Yes. Okay. And do you guys have access to a high-deductible health care plan? Mm-mm.

1:18:25we i feel like that's what we have yes it's a high deductible health care plan so you should

1:18:29George Kamel:have the hsa if you do then you have the ability to open it we don't we don't ever use it because we don't really we don't ever really go to the doctor or need the money well here's the life hack that's even better you fund this thing and any money above a threshold like any money above a thousand bucks you can invest just like an ira and the really cool part is you can just stack money in there. And after the age of 65, it becomes like a bonus traditional IRA. And I think it's$8 ,500 a year you can do? Yeah, I think like$8 ,750 or something for a family. So I would max that out as well, if you have access to that.

1:19:04George Kamel:That's another$8 ,750. And then he might have access to something called a mega backdoor 401k. And this is where you can do after-tax contributions and then convert it over to a Roth IRA. So he can look into that. But honestly, once you've done the 401k, the IRA, the HSA, I might then just go to a taxable brokerage account and invest in index funds and kind of have a, what I would call a bridge account. Because I assume you guys are young. Yes. 35, 36. Amazing. So this bridge account, let's say you wanted to be work optional at 50 or 55. Well, this bridge account in this brokerage account, that's not a retirement account.

1:19:46George Kamel:You can just use that money. You'll pay capital gains taxes on any of the growth, but you can use that money to float you until you hit 59 and a half to access the retirement accounts without penalty. Okay. So that's what I would be doing in that order of, you know, we talk about match, then Roth, then traditional. And then outside of that, you got the HSAs, you have the backdoor options. Then if you've exhausted all of those, because you want to take advantage of anything that has tax advantages, then go to the brokerage account and just invest outside of retirement to finish it out. Okay. That makes sense.

1:20:21George Kamel:Yeah. So you might be putting, you know, 20, 30 grand into that brokerage account. And if one day you may have an employer plan, then I would start utilizing that. Yes, sir. You're doing great. What's your net worth it? You said 35? Yes. Oh, probably not very much. I mean, we owe a bit on our house. I mean, we've got our emergency fund. I don't know, actually. Oh, there's an idea. You know what I would do personally? I might use that extra money and throw it at the mortgage. We do. We pay$1 ,500 extra a month towards our house right now. On top of the normal payment? Yes, correct. Make it$3 ,000.

1:21:01George Kamel:Let's get root. Now, how much faster will it get paid off at that point? How many years? Yeah. It's a 30-year loan. We bought the house probably a year and a half ago. I think we owe$490 on it, so it's a pretty hefty payment,$3 ,500. Yeah. I'd start chipping away at that thing and knocking it out in like seven. I would have a goal to have it paid off in about seven years with your income. Seven years? Oh, wow. You can do it. You guys make half a million dollars. I mean, not that it's easy, but you can definitely accomplish this. If you throw, let's say,$100 ,000 a year at it, you're done in four years, five years.

1:21:39George Kamel:yeah yeah and that's plausible for you guys but yeah i mean that's throwing like what seven eight grand a month at the mortgage total so i think it's very doable i would sit down with your uh husband tonight and start crunching some numbers and setting some real tactical goals and i think that's going to put some fire under you guys to get even more intentional with everything you're doing and then i would automate it all so that you don't have to think about it less brain calories of that that's a great problem to have i love that question all right derek is in grand rapids up next. What's happening, Derek?

1:22:10Hey, so I had a question.

1:22:12George Kamel:I've got some people that are calling me for wanting me to pick me up as a client for their financial advising services. Paint you a quick picture. I'm a self-employed real estate agent. I've been doing it for six years. So my income is not guaranteed. I own a house. I'm married with one kid. And my goal so far has been to just pay off the house as quickly as possible. We don't have any other consumer debt other than the house. And my dad's been getting on my case about starting investing in some more traditional ways. And one of those ways is he said, I need to get life insurance because I have a kid and I need to start investing in traditional accounts.

1:22:56George Kamel:Well, this financial advisor, I know Ramsey's position on whole life insurance and that it's terrible and I agree um but he presented this thing called a variable life insurance plan um and it sounds good and I feel like I'm missing a downside oh I bet he made it sound good do you know why Derek do you know why he would pitch you a VUL over term life insurance well I'm guessing he'll make a lot more money ding ding ding we have We have a winner. This guy wants a fat commission check, and let me be clear, he's not a financial advisor. He's an insurance salesman. Yes. In financial advisor clothing.

1:23:35George Kamel:Could be. No, he is. Does he call himself a wealth strategist on Instagram? I don't know. I'm not on Instagram. Okay. That's the tell, by the way. And their websites are always a little bit vague and sketchy. You're like, what is he actually selling here? Yeah, because it's investments, but you don't have to have a securities license to sell variable life to you. That's the scary part. They can get away with kind of selling investments through the insurance policy. But no, these are terrible investments, and the returns are awful. The commissions are super high. The premiums are super high. So here's what I would do instead.

1:24:08George Kamel:Get term life insurance to cover the insurance side, which is going to be a fraction of the cost, like$20,$30,$40,$50 a month, and then invest the difference. The term policy he presented was like$28 a month. There you go. So that's super cheap. And then whatever premium he was pitching you, if it was going to be$500, just invest that$472 difference on your own and you'll be so much better off. Otherwise, you're going to be calling me back in five years going, hey, how do I surrender this awful policy that my friend roped me into or family friend roped me into? No. And I wouldn't get any financial advice from him in the future because it's tainted now.

1:24:44George Kamel:You already know he's trying to steer you towards products that make him money, not build you wealth. Big difference. Big difference. Thanks for the call, man.

1:25:14George Kamel:welcome back to the ramsey show in the fair winds credit union studio i'm george camel joined by Jade Warshot. We're taking your calls at 888-825-5225. Beth is in Pensacola up next. What's going on, Beth? Hey. How you doing? Good. How are you? Good. What's your question today? Okay, so I have$80 ,000 cash, but I have a three and a half year old mobile home that I owe$86 ,000 on that's completely falling apart due to manufacturer defects. It's completely rotted. We have mold. We really need to get out of here. And then I also have student loans. So I'm trying to figure out, like, do I take the 80K, pay off the house, and just walk away from it all?

1:26:03Or do I take the money to fix the house, which estimates right now are between$60 ,000 and$90 ,000? Goodness gracious. Or do I get the student loan monkey off my back? How much are the student loans? So between me and my husband, it's$85 ,000. $85 ,000. Where did this$80 ,000 cash come from? So we actually purchased property that we were going to move the mobile home to, but in its current condition, if we take it apart, it's a double lot. It's in a trailer park right now. If we were to try to put it back together, the engineers say that it would probably never go back together right. So we sold the property, and so now we have the money from the property that we purchased.

1:26:44Got it, got it.

1:26:46George Kamel:So what would this thing sell for even if you did the repairs? Like nothing. That's what I'm trying to figure out. Yeah, it's not worth sinking$90 ,000 into it when it's already not worth that. Right. So could you get anything for it right now? I've tried. I've not had any luck. I've honestly been trying to move out of here since I purchased the place because nothing is basically what I was sold. How much did you purchase it for? So it was worth$129. I purchased it for$105 at a discount in exchange for living in the park for four years, which at that time we didn't have the property, so it was okay.

1:27:27And then I owe$86 on it today. And you've been in the park for four years? We will be in August. so it's our home's about three and a half years old okay um man oh man and how many how many um bids have you had on the mold have you checked with several places or just the one that quoted you 60 to 90 yeah no we've been like four months back and forth with the insurance and the mobile home dealer and you know they're saying they're not going to touch it because it's out of warranty even though another home identical to mine with the identical damage in the same park. And he actually just let his home go back to the lender.

1:28:09But we worked really hard to build our credit. Yeah. Where are you living in the meantime? Where are you living? You can't live in the mold. We're still in the house. I'm sorry.

1:28:21George Kamel:Beth, the hard truth is this just might be a money pit. And either way, it's a money pit or already has been a money pit. and you might need to just use the savings, pay off the mortgage, and get out of this thing as soon as you can. I think so, too. Otherwise, you're going to go through foreclosure, give it back to the bank, and it's going to destroy your financial world for a while. Yeah. And you guys can save back up$80 ,000. That's not the end of the world, right? It kind of feels like it. We both kind of came from nothing. So this is like a huge amount of money for us. It is. But let's paint a picture because I think you've been in the midst of this for a while.

1:29:00And how would it feel to completely be free of this? There's no mortgage left. You can walk away from it, scrap it, right? And then you guys look for an apartment. You're renters now, but there's no mold. And when you come home, it's peaceful. And you're not battling insurance people anymore. You're not battling. Do you see what I'm saying? There's peace on the other side of this. And it might cost you$85 ,000 or$80 ,000, but there's so much peace on the other side of getting rid of this mess. I'm just afraid that with the rental prices in our area, we're in northwest Florida, that we won't be able to save up to buy our place for like years and years.

1:29:46And I've got an 11-year-old now, and I really wanted to give him a safe home out in the country would have been the dream. Well, what do you guys do for work? So I'm a stay-at-home mom. We have three kids and I homeschool, and then my husband is an engineer. And what's he earn? And then I do all kinds of side stuff. He earns right out$100 ,000. And what do you earn with the side stuff? Anywhere between like$10 ,000 to$20 ,000. Okay.

1:30:13George Kamel:So$120 ,000 household income. You guys can definitely afford rent. It's not going to be fun. It's going to be more than you're paying now on a mobile home, but it's not outrageous. Yeah, well, it feels outrageous. What's it going to cost? What's the actual rent for a reasonable home? Nothing fancy. A rent for a reasonable home with no mold down here is about$2 ,000 for a three-bedroom. Great. And we've considered even doing a one-bedroom. Yeah. And we don't have any other bills. Like, we've paid everything else off. So I guess it doesn't seem that extreme, but... You're right there. Yeah. Yeah.

1:30:51George Kamel:You're just not used to paying$2 ,000 for any type of housing, so it feels outrageous. But for your income and your take-home pay, you're right there. That's perfect. And honestly, rent is the right space for you right now anyway. It's passing off risk to the landlord, which is great, or to the apartment complex, which is great. You don't have to shell out any extra money for anything else because right now, once you get into an apartment that you can afford or a rental house that you can afford, the next thing for you guys to tackle is this$85 ,000 of student loans. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think, honestly, even though there was what we would call some stupid tax attached to this, I think this is going to help you guys get right side up and start doing things in the proper order.

1:31:36George Kamel:Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? To where you're really able to achieve that financial piece that clearly you want, otherwise you wouldn't be crying, right? It's setting you on the right path. And so that's the learning and that's the piece that comes from all of this is, you know what? This is just putting us on the right path. Now we're doing, we're walking before, we're crawling before we walk, we're walking before we run, which is good. Okay. And honestly, Beth, I don't want you to drain all of your savings to pay down a mortgage for a mobile home that's worth nothing. So what I would do first is negotiate with the lender and it might, maybe a short sale is the best move, but I think you could do a negotiated settlement with the lender after explaining all of this and they might be willing to work with you to take a much smaller amount to call it good and get you guys out.

1:32:25Will that hurt our credit?

1:32:26George Kamel:It may, temporarily, but you guys are going to rent for a while. You have no other debt, and so it's not the end of the world in that case. Okay. You're not going to be buying a home in the next, you know, 6 to 12 months. Let's rent for a while. Let's rebuild. Let's get rid of the student loans. Let's build an emergency fund, then save a down payment. So, yes, I know your dreams of having a home in the country and homeschooling. That's still on the table. It's just a not now. Okay. This is just a reset period, and I think you're going to have so much peace getting out of this. And by the way, your health and your family's health is worth getting out of this.

1:33:01George Kamel:Yes, got to get out of that. Yeah, y 'all are right. So you're not a failure. You're doing the most right now. And you guys were dealt a bad card, and I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with this financially, emotionally, in the midst of some chaos. We worked so hard to raise it, you know, to do everything right, and then at no fault of our own, we're losing everything. and it's just really hard. Well, I hope you can negotiate with that lender explaining your situation because this is, I mean, yes, there were some decisions on your part, but there was also just the reality of the defects and the mold that was just out of your control.

1:33:38George Kamel:So I wish you guys the best in cleaning the mess up and getting a fresh start. You deserve that.

1:34:20We'll be right back. Yes to plans. Stick to your budget without stress. We're giving away one$10 ,000 grand prize and weekly$500 prizes. No purchase necessary. Go to RamseySolutions.com slash giveaway.

1:34:47George Kamel:Today's Ramsey Show question of the day is brought to you by YRefi. If you've lost control of your private student payments, your financial progress is stalled out. But Y-Refi helps borrowers explore refinancing options with payments built around their real-life situations. So learn more at yrefi.com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y.com slash Ramsey. May not be available in all states. Indeed. Today's question comes from Justin in Iowa. He says, I'm in baby step two and I've been selling items to help pay off my$15 ,000 of debt. Currently, I'm just finding free items online and selling them on various sites.

1:35:23While I've been doing this, I've seen some inexpensive items that I can purchase at a low price, allowing me to flip them for profit. Is this a good strategy to pay off my debt? Interesting. Arbitrage.

1:35:37George Kamel:The old arbitrage move. You go to Goodwill, you find something that you can find on eBay listed right now for five times the price, and you flip it. I'd love to know. I think there could be some validity to this, but maybe I'd give you give some guardrails here because what you don't want is you've invested, even if it's$400 into a bunch of items and they've all been sitting on, I'll just say the Craigslist to incorporate all of those different sites. They've been sitting on the Craigslist for four and five and six months. And before you know it, you're like, I thought this thing was going to sell.

1:36:10It didn't. Yeah. Like that's it. I feel like that's a sticky. That's a slippery slope to get in.

1:36:16George Kamel:I like the idea of it almost as a it's kind of like a little business and so if you look at it like that you're going to invest a little bit of your own money to purchase the inventory that you're going to sell so in that regard what I would do is set a boundary on it in your budget to say hey this is how much I can purchase each month to flip but it's going to come out of the profits from other things I've sold I like that idea and only after you've done all the research because you can get starry eyed and just start buying stuff up hoping you sell it No, find out what is constantly selling consistently at that price point and then make sure that you can still ROI after all of the fees and shipping and all of that.

1:36:53And I'd even say in addition to – I don't want this to be your only side hustle. I want you to be doing something else that's kind of like guaranteed quick money as well so that you're not getting – there's the opportunity that this could actually slow you down on your journey versus speed you up if you're investing too much of your profits. Yeah.

1:37:12George Kamel:I've got a friend who was doing this for fun and she was finding like old school toys. Yeah. Because she was buying stuff for her kids at like consignment shops. And she would find these toys, look them up on eBay and sell them for, you know, she'd buy it for five or 10 bucks, sell it for$300. Yeah. Because some of these vintage toys, these parents are like, I want my kid to have the exact thing I had when I was a kid and they'll spend crazy money on it. And furniture flipping, that's a huge one. You can make so much on that. Yeah, if you're handy and you can do the research. Now, you've got to think about how much time you're investing into it.

1:37:44George Kamel:Right, right. Your hourly rate might be$3 an hour after you poured all this into it. So make sure it's worth your time. But that's a valid business idea. Very cool. Thanks for the question, Justin. All right. Jason is with us in Houston up next. What's going on, Jason? How are you doing, George? Good. What's your question? Well, my grandmother – well, my mom passed away the first week of December last year. Sorry. Thank you so much. And then my grandmother passed away the week after. Oh, boy. Yeah, it was a tough month, definitely. And my wife's grandmother passed away in January. Oh, boy. So we're stacked upon each other.

1:38:20That's tough. Anyways, since my mom passed away from my grandmother, my grandmother's inheritance goes to my two aunts and my sister and I because it goes via the lineage. So it kind of bypasses my dad. um my dad called me last week and wanted to know if i'd be willing to give my sister my portion of the inheritance from my grandma's estate uh because she's always been a little behind and everything like that and she needs to really start saving up for retirement stuff like that she has pretty much nothing saved up and we're pretty well off my life on high level here and uh how much are we talking about a hundred thousand uh wow wow wow so you're gonna give

1:39:05George Kamel:somebody who has no ability to handle money the most money they've ever seen in their life at your detriment too yeah my dad said he would give me his entire hair and that's when he passes away. Which is how much? Well, he's got a house that's worth about$280. I think he's got$60 less on the mortgage. So wait a second. He's saying, and now is this, is he holding it hostage? Is he saying if you don't do this, you will not be part of my inheritance? Is that what he's saying? No, no, no. Okay. Okay. Just checking on that. He just sort of guilting you into it. Like, hey, hey, she could really use the money.

1:39:44George Kamel:You guys are doing okay. What do you think about giving it to her. Listen, I'm going to tell you right now, I think that's totally out of bounds that he asked that. Isn't she already getting$100 ,000? She is getting$100 ,000. None of that, she was$24 ,000 in credit cards, debts, and my mom needs to help her out, but she passed away, so she doesn't help her out anymore. How about this? Let's let it play out. Let's see what she does with her$100 ,000 and see where she is a year from now. George, I'm not even letting it play out. Well, it's more for entertainment purposes at this point. I'm not saying you should promise him anything.

1:40:14George Kamel:I would not be giving your sister this money. And it's not because you're cruel. No. It's because it's actually going to hurt her, not be a blessing to her. And also because it was intended for you. But I did some of my sister's debt. But here's the thing. The money was intended for you. There was a portion that was intended for her. There was a portion that was intended for you and some that were intended for other family members. There is no obligation for you, whether she's doing well or not doing well. Well, her side of this honestly matters nothing. We don't wait inheritance based on who could use it the most.

1:40:47No, it was intended for you. And it's yours. And if you wanted to do that, you would have to come up with that idea in your brain. But for your dad to reach over and say, hey, son, I think it'd be a good idea if you helped out Linda. That's not fair. That's neither fair nor right in any way, shape or form. And since my mom was helping her out, my wife and I actually settled her debt. She has no debt anymore.

1:41:12George Kamel:Oh, my God. Your sister has no debt anymore? Correct. She had like$24 ,000 with a credit card debt. I managed to contact her creditors and settled it for$16 ,000. Wow. So where is she at now? She works a retail job, but now she's on the level she can't get a credit card anymore. Nobody will give her credit anymore. So now she can save, you know? And is she saving? I told her that I want her to invest all of this money that she gets. And so I was going to send her information from investor pros and stuff in her area. How old is she? And try to hook her up with every dollar too. How old is she? She is, let's see, I'm 51, so she's turning 40 this year.

1:41:54Is there anything, and I'm asking this in the most delicate way that I can at this point, I'm not going to lie, I'm very irritated. Is there anything that precludes her from going out in the world and basically doing what other adults do? Or is there a mental problem? Is there anything that's precluding her? Or is she just—

1:42:12George Kamel:It sounds like her growth is sort of stunted in a way. Right, and we want to know, is there truly anything there that we need to be considering? Or is this just a person who's just deciding, I don't need to do all the things that the other adults need to do? No, no, no. She wants to find a new job. She's actually going to get married later this year. And her fiancé is a very level-headed guy. I like him a lot. They work in the same area, so they work close together. So then why is it up to you guys to step in and save her is my question. She seems fine. It seems like she's fine. She's in a relationship.

1:42:50She's got a job. She's got a future spouse on the way.

1:42:55George Kamel:She's got$100 ,000 coming to her. Yes, she's fine. She doesn't need your help at this point. I mean I would love you want to know what I'd love to do Jason I'd love to shift the conversation to so what are you going to do with this$100 ,000 of inheritance you're about to receive what are your goals Jason yes I want to shift it so we're we're pretty well off I'm planning on putting it in an index in case my dad needs assistance later when he gets older I mean he's already 71 so I mean what a guy you're already thinking about other people as you build wealth yeah I would go read the parable of the talents in the Bible.

1:43:30George Kamel:It's a great parable that explains how you can squander wealth or how you can grow it. And there's a lot of scenarios. And some people cannot be trusted with money because they will not handle it well. And your job is to be a steward of any money that comes your way. That's my viewpoint, at least. And so if you are the steward of this money, what is the best use of this money? Is it to give it to someone who you know will not multiply it, but instead likely squander it. I don't think that's wisdom. Yeah, and another concern to find is I have a special needs son who's going to be needing care of the rest of his life, and we need to have a pretty big message.

1:44:04Yeah, we need a special needs trust and fund it.

1:44:07George Kamel:That's what I would be doing with this money. You got your own life, and she has her own life. You've already done enough for her settling her debts. I would step out and let her spread her wings.

1:44:39When people hear my story of paying off debt, they say things like, dang, that must have been so hard. I could never do that. And I tell them, sure you can. It's a short-term sacrifice for a long-term gain. But do you know what's really hard? working your whole life, and never having anything to show for it. Never having the long-term gain, just feeling broke and stressed and maxed all the time. And sadly, that's the hard that most people choose. Listen, you're capable of transforming your situation and living a life of freedom, but you need the right tools to do it, like our EveryDollar Budget app.

1:45:13In minutes, it'll build you a step-by-step plan that's tailored to your money situation. And every day, it finds ways you can free up extra money in your budget so you can get rid of your debt and actually build wealth. So make the choice today. Short-term sacrifice, long-term gain. Choose the tool to help you get it done fast. Download the EveryDollar app and start for free today.

1:45:49George Kamel:Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. We are now joined by a wonderful couple on the debt-free stage. It is Andrew and Megan. Welcome, guys. Welcome. Thank you, guys. Hello. Thank you very much. Thanks for coming all this way to celebrate with us. Where are you guys from? Chicago. Chicago. Awesome. How much debt did you pay off? Wow. I got it written down. A hundred and sixty five thousand two hundred and ninety three dollars. Love that. Fantastic. And how long did it take to pay that off? 22 months. Okay. There's a story here. Something happened. There was some hustle going on. And what was their range of income during that time?

1:46:22About$200 to about$230, depending on overtime and side hustling. Wow.

1:46:27George Kamel:Fantastic. What kind of debt was the$165? We had a car in there. Car. A swimming pool. Whoa. And then our mortgage. Whoa. Just throw that in there for fun. Just a little bit. Yeah. That is incredible. I got to say, I just saw the photo of, was this like a backyard renovation situation? No. So we just, we, the kids love being in the backyard. We got the pool, so we just some lights and a little movie screen back there for summertime. And yeah, just living the life. Look at this. That is awesome. And now it's actually yours. All ours. They can't repo the pool now. Nope. Absolutely. I love that. I'd love to see them try.

1:47:01George Kamel:Yeah. That is awesome. We'd be in a lot of trouble with the kids. Yeah. Now they're like, we need this pool now. Okay. So 22 months ago, you were sitting here with the mortgage, the pool, the car loan. What happened that made you guys go gazelle intense? sense it we i hate saying it but it was he started it he was a ramsey fan before i knew what ramsey was and i said oh that that's great good do your thing and i'll do mine and um we just sat down in it was january of that year and we were talking about kind of what our goals were and long-term goals what we want to do what we want to do for the kids in college and all of that stuff and uh he mentioned ramsey again and so i finally we had the book on the shelf the whole time since before we met.

1:47:43So I finally read it and I'm the nerd. And once I read it, I was like, let's go. Like spreadsheet open. We've got this. We're doing it. And so just kind of dove in headfirst.

1:47:53George Kamel:So you're telling me that what really changed it was number one, you guys sat down and actually had some vision for your future. Absolutely. And then it was, okay, we got to reverse engineer it. How are we going to do it? Well, here's a plan over here. And you dusted off Total Money Makeover and said, let me just read it. All right. Yeah. And that sold you. Absolutely. Yeah. much. It's so simple that it's like, why weren't we doing this before? And you guys floored it all the way through. It's like baby step two, you said, okay, we'll do this car and this pool deal, but that's not good enough for us.

1:48:22We're going to tack the mortgage onto it as well. Yeah. We, um, we realized that kind of with where we're at in our life and the age of the kids. And you know, I know sometimes people say, I just, I want to be there for my kids and I don't want to miss things. And I didn't want to miss it, but more importantly, I didn't want to miss the future. I didn't want to see them going into debt for college or doing things like that. And so we decided to just really floor it and live on beans and rice and do the thing. So he has always been, I'm going to throw a little extra on the mortgage, a little extra on the mortgage, which made a difference.

1:48:53But it didn't when we were financing cars and pools. How much of it was the mortgage that was left? About 120 or so. Oh, yeah. I totally get it. When you're that close, you're like, I'm just going for it. And we kept seeing it go down. you know, month after month. And so we did the pool first. We actually, we got our tax refund and paid the pool off right away. So that was a nice jumpstart. We had some in savings. The car, I think we paid off almost a year before my initial projection was because we just started what don't we need and cutting the budget down. And so then by then we were getting close to the house was inching closer and closer to a hundred.

1:49:30And we were like, well, I mean, what if we just kept this up? And so we did. And, you know, any overtime that he could get from work. And then my side job, I just picked up as much as I could there too. And we just threw it all there.

1:49:40George Kamel:Wow. What was the side job? I'm a nurse practitioner. And so I do home health visits. I love that. That's a great side gig. It's probably one of the better ones. I bet. Yeah. Because everybody, I mean, listen, if you can get it in your home, that's wonderful. So good. And how about you, Andrew? What do you do for work? I'm a fireman. Oh, fantastic. Yep. Look at this. We got a nurse practitioner, a fireman. So what do you say about this? I mean, obviously they're going to they're noticing life around here has changed mom and dad like tell us more there there were definitely times where they were like mom dad why can't we we go on vacation our people down the street are uh they're getting the newer toys they're getting we said no we're gonna we're gonna hold off on that you're gonna get it later on yeah and they i listen to the show all the time and the kids are they know the phone number and they're like oh you're listening to dave ramsey like they they know all about it now and they they they laugh when they hear the commercials and it's like, what's in your wallet?

1:50:34They're like, not a credit card. It's a debit card. So they're on board.

1:50:38George Kamel:They're drinking the Kool-Aid too. That may have been the best part of this whole journey is that, you know, we say more is caught than taught and you guys have set a precedent to now they're not going to turn 18 and go, well, mom, I think I really need to build my credit and get a credit card. What do you, they know better now. Absolutely. Such a young age. You don't even need to talk about it. You've lived it. Yeah. And I think that's a big thing. The more is caught than taught. We were wondering how we bring it in and how we teach them. And we realized that just doing what we were doing and telling them like, no, we're putting some into savings and you know, this is what we're doing and why we're doing it.

1:51:08And they, for, for their ages, I think understand pretty well. So yeah.

1:51:11George Kamel:What's the house worth? Um, anywhere between 400 and 450. Let's go. What do you guys have across your retirement accounts in this day? I think we're probably, we're probably right at, or maybe over the threshold there for, for baby step millionaire. Depends on how the market's doing here. So we're very close if we're not there. way to go exciting so how's it feel i mean you don't have a payment in the world you owe nobody nothing it i feel like sometimes it still hasn't hit me no it hasn't like we we have the proof yeah but i'm still oh you got the proof i see everyone else hear everyone else telling about talking about what they're paying off and what they still have they still owe on their homes and i'm like oh i don't know anything do you know the exact amount you guys have freed up in payments from the car loan, the pool payment, the mortgage payment?

1:51:59Probably close to, if not at, about$3 ,000 a month. I would say closer to$3 ,500. Wow.

1:52:06George Kamel:So we're talking like a$40 ,000 raise in take-home pay. And he last month worked some overtime, and we didn't realize how much it was until the check came in. And so instead of figuring out what goes where, we're like, what are we going to do with this money? It's a great problem to have and fun to, you know, kind of plan what we'll be able to do with that for the future. What are you going to do? What are you going to do to celebrate this? Because this is a major, major accomplishment. Yeah. So we are, well, we came here, obviously. That's the first part. What else? What else? We are going to take a trip this summer.

1:52:38We're going to just drive out west with the boys and kind of see as many of the sites as we can for a couple of weeks. And then ultimately, we would love to be able to live on a lake. And so we're putting money away to hopefully one day be able to do that too. Someday. I love that.

1:52:52George Kamel:That's so cool, man. Live like no one else so later you can live and give like no one else. So what do you tell people the key to becoming debt-free is? I think it's what everyone says all the time, right? Yeah. Being partnership and having those conversations together. I think we, when we first got married, did not have joint finances. I was paying off student loans and I said, let me just keep it coming out of my account. And then we didn't know where the money was, what was coming, what was going, who was spending what. And so finally, when we sat down and did this and got everything on the same page, it just makes so much more sense.

1:53:26And now there's no question about what's going on. So the communication and getting on a good budget, EveryDollar is my favorite thing. I'm on it all the time. Love that. Because we know exactly what's going on then. Both of us can see it too.

1:53:37George Kamel:I love to hear it. Well, we'll gift you two EveryDollar subscriptions. You can keep those to renew yours and keep the fire going for your new savings goals. You can give them to someone else who you want to encourage to get on the same journey. That's our little parting gift to you. Can we get the kids on the stage? Yeah. All right. What's their names and ages? So Gavin is nine and Leo is seven. Love it. And they've been practicing. If they know the phone number, they for sure have been practicing the debt-free scream. Yeah. We're very good screamers in general. So we're hoping that the debt-free part will work.

1:54:07George Kamel:Hey, blow the audience away, guys. Okay. Ready? We've got Andrew and Megan and Gavin and Leo. Chicago area,$165 ,000 paid off. That's the car loan, the pool, and yes, even the mortgage. They did it in 22 months, making$200 to$230 with the side hustles. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Ready, guys? Three, two, one. We're debt-free! Yeah!

1:54:38George Kamel:Man. That's pretty wild. That's what I'm talking about. Listen, you know what? We teach on here all the time. You can be intentional. You don't have to be intense about paying off the mortgage. But man, every once in a while, folks like Megan and Andrew come along and they just slam on the pedal. And I'm not mad at them for doing it. No. And what's crazy is, yeah, they're making 200 grand, but the stats show people making six figures. Half of them are paycheck to paycheck. So don't tell me, well, if I made that much. No. Use your income. And as you make more, keep throwing at the debt. Keep working the plan.

1:55:10George Kamel:And eventually you'll become babysit millionaires at a young age with a whole lot of life on the other side. So proud of you guys. Thank you.

1:55:39All right, let's cut to the chase. It's easy to get discouraged about crazy house prices and interest rates, but when you have the right real estate agent to help you buy and sell the right way, you'll have confidence to make smart decisions. Ramsey Trusted Agents aren't just experts who guide you through buying or selling. They're people you can trust to have your back from the first call to closing day. Find a Ramsey Trusted Agent near you at RamseySolutions.com slash agent. That's RamseySolutions.com slash agent.

1:56:22George Kamel:Our scripture of the day, Matthew 634. Do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. Mark Twain said, the two most important days in your life for the day you were born and the day you find out why. That's good. You're going to learn today. All right. John is in New York City. John, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me. Sure. How can we help? So to give some context, my mother-in-law, I love her to death. I love her daughter so much. She has a great income, no debt except for her car. The house has paid off. but I can't get her to buy in on retirement or saving.

1:57:07Actually, I can get her to buy in for a little bit, but then it just goes completely out of the window for this reason or that reason. And admittedly, I am worried that in 20 years, she will be totally, that we will be responsible for her financially. And that concerns me, of course. So I don't really know how to get her to a place to fully buy in because she's in a rare and unique circumstance where she has the ability to save her retirement over the next 10 years and have a good retirement. But she just won't for a multitude of reasons. Sounds like something spooked her or scared her or she grew up hearing something, right?

1:57:54There's something that's living in her psyche that is informing her, and it's clearly not the facts. I think that's right. Yeah, she grew up pretty poor, and so I think it's one of the mentalities of, what if I die tomorrow? So she'll save. We did get a Roth IRA going. That's great. But that's pretty much all she has saved for retirement. So she will do a Roth IRA? Oh, she has about$25 ,000 in it. And so that's the only thing that we've been able to stick to, mostly because I think it's automated. So she's maxing it out every year? Yes, but it only started three years ago. So, you know, quick napkin math in 10 years.

1:58:35I mean, and frankly, the way that she spends, you know, I mean, that will go in three months probably. Does she have access to a 401k through her work? Yeah, yeah, she has access to it. But it is and we've sat down and, you know, did every single cent where it goes. And I mean, she has like five, six thousand dollars a month. In her mind, what's the difference between her doing the Roth IRA and letting that be, you know, automated versus also setting the 401k and obviously that being automated in her mind? What has she said the difference is? Is it just the amount of money or? Yeah, yeah, it's essentially the amount of money, but she recognizes that she makes a good amount of money, but she believes that life just continues to get in the way.

1:59:25You know, but then it's like I walk into Easter and, you know, I got a basket. Oh, so it's not the investing. It's her parting with that being that money being part of her day to day spending budget. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, it's probably two hundred dollars a day and I just don't know where it goes.

1:59:41George Kamel:Like, frankly, I don't know where it goes. And I think that I will grow resentment if she has no money in 10 years. And I've just been watching this for, you know, two decades. Where's your wife in all of this? Because if you, you're a good son-in-law, you're talking with her. It feels like this is something that maybe your wife should be taking the lead on. and there's part of this where you both are going to have to relinquish the idea that you can't make her do anything. Like she's a grown woman. She can make her choices. And because of that, you can also control what you're going to do, which is if you and your wife have sat down and said, we don't believe that it's our job to fund her retirement.

2:00:24Let's just, we agree on that. Fine. But maybe it's our due diligence to let her know that as well, so that she can factor that into whatever plan that she has. And then from there on, you can kind of just go on about your business and say, I set the expectation and I'm aligned with my spouse. It's all good in the hood. Move on. What's wrong with that?

2:00:45George Kamel:No, and you know what? That is definitely a conversation where neither of us want to have it. And I think that if push comes to shove, we're both like on the fence of like, of course we'll take her in. But that budget will look totally different than what she wants it to look like. But I think that setting the expectation is probably what needs to happen. Personally, if it were my mom, I'd probably lock her in the closet six days a week because I'd be like, what are we doing? This is ridiculous because her take-home is nearly$150 ,000. I mean it's – It's just disappearing into random spending.

2:01:20George Kamel:Exactly. Like I said, it's probably$200 a month. I think you're burning too much energy on just continually circling what she's not doing. I can't believe she's doing this. She's got this. Why wouldn't she? That's a lot of energy you're burning, John. And so I think you need to burn more energy on here's what I'm going to do. And here's what that's going to look like. Here's what my wife and I are going to say. Here's what we're going to do. This is what it's going to look like. This is what it's going to sound like. And if it makes you feel better, because please hear me, I get it. There is just when you come from someone, you know, you've got parents, you care about them.

2:01:58And even though it's very easy for myself or George to say it's not your responsibility because this is your family, you do feel it. So I want to acknowledge that you do wish that you could meddle in it and go in and change it, but you can't. so if it makes you feel better what you could do is say uh i just want to make sure she knows i'm just going to set a regular rhythm of you know maybe it's once a year we kind of have a state of the union and we say hey we just want to i don't we don't know if you're interested in the investing thing yet we're still here if you want help because remember we're not funding this and and as long as you're it's almost like the college discussion that you have with children you set the expectations and you set it early and often no one's surprised this yeah so i think

2:02:40George Kamel:What you can do is support and equip your wife with some information to bring to your mother-in-law so that this conversation goes better because it's going to take a little bit of a persuasive argument if you can even get her to invest. But the good news is, as you found out, if you can get her to automate it and just live on what's left, then you're golden. And so if your wife can sit with her, log into the 401k, ratchet it up, and all of a sudden she has less coming in each month, well, now she has less that will flitter away into money leaks. And also the good news, I think I heard you say her home is paid off.

2:03:13She's not taking on any new debt, correct?

2:03:16George Kamel:She just has the car loan? Yeah, she just has a very nice car, and that's it. What's left on the car loan? Do you even know? Oh, my gosh. 34, probably. 34. Does she have any plans to pay that off, or is she just doing the minimum payment? Minimum, yeah, the$600 a month or whatever it is. Does she have savings? You know, bleeding. No, and that's the thing is that we would get to like$15 ,000,$20 ,000, again, pretty easily, pretty quickly. And then it's like, you know, all of a sudden, like one of them has access to the account and it'll be like$400 in there. I'm like, what is this? And it's nothing like on the surface of like, you know, a$12 ,000 handbag or whatever.

2:03:57I think it's just like literally$200 a day of just not -

2:04:02George Kamel:That'll do it. choices. That's$6 ,000 a month if you're doing the math at home. So it doesn't take much to just have all these money leaks eat away at you, even when you make great money. And the more you make, the more you go, sweet, more I can blow without feeling it. So this is going to be - We've doubled her salary. We've done really good work. And you're right, I'm so emotionally attached. I think about it as much as I think about my own finances. You got to chill out with that. That's the scary part. This is consuming you. So I mean, it's like, you can't want it more than she does. And at some point she might need to feel the pain, but again, that's too late for you where you're going, well, I don't want to need to fund her retirement.

2:04:38George Kamel:So that's going to be up to your wife to go, mom, we love you. We are not your retirement plan. And I don't know what your plans are, but it doesn't seem like you have one. And I love you too much to watch you retire broke and for you to become a burden. I want your retirement to be filled with dignity, filled with options and flexibility and not you needing to live with us because you have no other option. Yeah. Oh, boy. And for anybody listening, man, if you're listening this and you're in, you know, late 40s going into your 50s, 60s, please, please, please take it upon yourself to do the right thing.

2:05:09Do not set up your children to have to have conversations like what John is having. It is your duty to set yourself up for life. It should not be your when you bring children into the world. It's your responsibility to take care of them. You brought them here. You take care of them. And there's no quid pro quo of, well, they now are my retirement plan because I raised them.

2:05:29George Kamel:No, that's selfish. That's what it is. And we're seeing a generation that is the sandwich generation. Yes. They are trying to raise their kids. They're trying to set their own financial goals. And they got to take care of mom and dad who did not prepare for retirement. They got their own kids to take care of. Like, hey, mom and dad, you had a 70-year heads up that one day you're not going to be able to work anymore. And you squandered it. So this is why we're seeing a generation who wants to learn financial literacy, which is probably the only silver lining here. Well, that puts this hour of The Ramsey Show in the books.

2:05:57George Kamel:Remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.