The Hard Road Is The One That Moves You Forward

28:30But that's a decision and discussions you guys have to have when it comes to your will and your estate and your assets. But that's hard. That's hard. But the reason it's important is if you can come into alignment on those kinds of things when there are no emotions or limited emotions because we're not in the middle of grief or we're not in the middle of a cancer diagnosis or we're not in the middle of an argument after death with the ones left behind. Well, Daddy always said he's going to give it to me, and now look at that gold digger. She took it all. You know, that kind of crap, right? And that's exactly how it sounds 99 % of the time if you don't work this stuff out ahead of time.

29:14So you need to work it out ahead of time because you guys coming into agreement on that is more important for your marriage and your relationship than it is actually about the distribution of the money. Yeah, and the health of the family after, you know. And then everybody knows. Yes. You know. Yes. She and I decided you get nut and honey. That's what, just like the cereal, you get nut and honey. That's the deal. What's that? It's a cereal. Cheerios. Honey Nut Cheerios? Yeah. Nut and Honey. Yeah. It's a thing. Probably in the early 80s. That's great. Well, it might have been the 70s. I don't know.

29:48I have flashbacks these days. It's my age. Oh, no. Flashbacks from commercials from the 60s. Oh, my gosh. Anyway, that's what you get. Nut and Honey. I mean, tell them up front. Everyone needs a will. And if you're going to piss somebody off with a will, do it while you're alive. Don't leave it to the people left behind to do all the getting everybody getting pissed off thing. Go ahead and deal with it. And do have the backbone to implement it. Have a reading of the will while you're alive. It's highly uncomfortable. I call it the Monty Python meeting because I sit there and listen to what's going to happen when I die that I have planned out.

30:26And I'm going, it's just a flesh wound. I'm feeling much better. You know, I'm really not sick. And so, you know. The When Dave Dies meeting. That's like basically what's on our calendar. That's what we call it. When Dave Dies meeting. Yeah. Once a year. And everybody knows that way. We appreciate it. There's no freaking confusion. And it's really healthy for everyone involved, but particularly for the husband and the wife. Which means to do a will. We had our money and marriage event, Dr. Deloney and I, a few weeks ago. And we were walking through a financial checklist in one of the sessions, talking through.

30:57I mean, it was kind of boring. I was like, free spirits. You got to stay with me because it's kind of the boring, boring adult stuff. But we talked about a will for a good bit of just what that looks like, what to do. And then afterwards, at the end of the whole weekend, we had people write what they're going to do with their marriage when they leave. You know, certain things are going to implement. And, you know, I was thinking like communication, you know, our thoughts about intimacy, like all these big discussions we talk about. There were so many that said we're making a will, which means they don't have one.

31:24So it's a reminder to all of you out there. Make a will. Mama Bear Legal Forms is a great site. You need to get Mama Bear to throw that in in the package when they come all the way over here to do the thing. I'm not kidding. The amount of people that were like, we're going to do a will. Do a will while you're sitting here. Like, you have to do a will. Have a little workshop. So, do a state-specific will. If your estate's not complicated, you can do an online one. You can save the fees for all the attorneys and everything. If your net worth's over a million dollars, you need to do, you know, a more detailed one.

31:48But I'm telling you, do a will. When did you do your will? At a marriage conference? Woo!

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33:53It's a spiritual walk, an emotional walk, a relational walk. Jay deals with every bit of that and shows you how to win with it. It's the first Ramsey book that takes an honest, in-depth look at the emotions, the emotional side of money. It gives you practical tools to finally make progress for good. We're going to show you how to do that. Pre-order right now for$24.99 and get over$100 in free bonus items, including the enhanced audiobook. It's very cool. Early access to the e-book, instant access to an exclusive video, your financial checkup with Jade Washoe, and you can book exclusive three-week online book club and live Q &A with Jade about the book as well.

34:36So pre-order today at RamseySolutions.com slash store, or if you're watching on YouTube or podcast, click the link in the description. Jake is in North Dakota. Jake, what are you thankful for? I'm thankful Christ died for my sins, Dave. Amen and amen. Better gift than that. Never gets old. Never gets old. The greatest story ever told. How can we help today? Amen. Well, I recently read your book, Total Money Makeover. My wife and I have been kind of paying attention to your show for about a year now, and we've been able to merge our finances. We used to have separate accounts, but we've merged everything together.

35:15We've been paying down on our debt, but I would like to be more intense about it. And I don't know how to get her on board with that. I don't want to be forceful. It's not my will to be forceful about it with her. But I would like us to be more intense and get out of debt. Okay, so what does that mean practically? Do you feel like you could be, I mean, how much more money do you feel like you could be throwing at the debt per month that you guys are just spending? Quite a bit. But we've got two car payments that I would love to get rid of. I'd like to sell both vehicles. She's not on board with that, at least at this time.

35:54Debt-wise, we have just under$300 ,000 in debt. Counting your mortgage? That's everything, yeah. How much is that your mortgage? About$184 ,000 in a mortgage. You have$16 ,000 in debt? No, no, no. No, no, no. $116 ,000. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I missed it. Okay,$116 ,000. Okay. That sounds about right. Yep. All right. And what does that consist of? $49 ,000 as a second mortgage. Okay. What's your household income? About$160 ,000,$170 ,000 a year without overtime. How long have y 'all been married? Boy, since 2012. I've got to think for a minute. 13 years. Okay. When did you guys just start this?

36:41You said you just read the book and you're starting this process. How long has it been? We started this at about the end of March of this year. That's when you combined the finances? Yes, sir. We've been talking about doing it for a number of years, but we just never pulled the trigger and did it. What does she do for a living? We both got ourselves into it. She works for, I'm trying to find the words for it. They deal with selling health insurance benefits to businesses. She's a consultant doing that. And what's her hesitation when you said, I want to sell the cars, and she doesn't? What's her reasoning behind that?

37:23She just doesn't want to. She likes the car. And I don't blame her. I mean, we bought both of them brand new in 2021. Yeah. But she doesn't want to sell that and get into something unreliable. We live in the north where winters are harsh, and neither one of us wants to be in something unreliable driving our kids around. Yeah, yeah. Out of the 116, how much are the cars? What are the car loans? The$25 ,000 owed on hers and$23 ,000 on mine. So half of it's cars. Okay. Yeah. The other half, well, almost. And again,$49 ,000 is the second mortgage. We have about$18 ,000 in credit card debt, which we've been hemorrhaging money and paying down a lot of credit card debt.

38:12Have you cut up your credit cards? I have not cut that one up, but it is not carried away. We don't use it. How often do you go out to eat? We don't. We cook at home. I hunt and fish, so we provide as much of our food the natural way that we can. That's nice. Well, you've got a good place to do that. Um, so, so do you, so again, this not selling cars would not be gazelle intense. I understand that. And then per month, how much could you, where else could you be saving money? What else would you cut out that you would, if, if it was up to you, where are you guys spending that you want to cut?

38:56Um, I guess we, we budget, we budget, uh, a little bit extra in the, um, each month or just pursuing our own interests, I guess. So this mainly comes down to the question of intensity or gazelle intensity. It mainly comes down to the car discussion. Is that what you're saying? 100%, yeah. That's fair. All right, so here's what I would do. I would just sit and keep having the discussion. Sell your car, Jake. Yeah, you can lead by selling yours and not hers. And I'm looking into that right now. But tell her that we are making this decision, not you. I'm willing to get rid of mine so that we can advance.

39:42And here's the thing. The reason that people don't cut up a credit card, the reason that people continue to go out to eat, the reason that people go on vacation is they don't think they're going to win. If you think you're going to win, you'll sacrifice to win. But if you sacrifice and don't win, no one wants to do that. That's psychotic. Okay? So selling your cars and then being broke for the next five years is not a good plan. That's weird. We're not asking to do that. You're not asking to do that. But right now, you're talking about selling the car instead of talking about the dream of what it's going to be like when we don't have a stinking payment except our mortgage.

40:18And we can actually build some wealth and pay cash for whatever kind of car we want. We're going to live like no one else so that we can live and give like no one else. Talk about the second part. The two of you dream together in high definition of what life is going to look like when we finally get all this crap away from us and we're not normal anymore because normal sucks. And Jake, as much as you can, I think it's sometimes helpful because it sounds like she's probably more of the free spirit in the relationship. You're probably more of the nerd. Would you say that's right? Very much. Okay.

40:51So use your nerd advantage and honestly make some scenarios. scenarios. I feel like that's always helpful when people feel like that there's just like, this is the only thing. And like, and exactly what Dave was just saying, like, sell the cars. And then it's like, okay, well, what's after that? Like, what are we doing? There's something about having a scenario scenario one, Jake sells his car, we find an extra$800 a month in the budget, like whatever it is, like, boom, boom, boom, boom, we're out of debt in x amount of time, then we're gonna be able to save x amount per month to upgrade the car.

41:24And here's the reality, Right. And then scenario number two, if we both sell the car scenario three, if we don't sell either car and we just pay it off, here's how long we'll be in debt. Like actually have some reality to it, because sometimes just the idea can just feel a little bit like nebulous or something. So if you can get some details down and you guys look at a couple of different options and different plans of how to get there, how to get to this goal of being debt free, it feels more realistic. Let me give you an example of what Rachel's saying. Let's pretend you didn't have a car and you're calling me and saying, I want to take out a car payment.

41:56And I say, well, the average car payment's 500. It's not anymore. It's a lot higher than that. 726. Okay. $750. Okay. So for 10 months, I want you to save$750. What is that? $7 ,500. Buy a$7 ,500 car for cash 10 months from now. 10 months later, you'll have$7 ,500 and a$7 ,500 car doesn't go down much in value. So you can sell it for 7 ,500. Put that with the new 7 ,500. You got a$15 ,000 car. A scenario is that 20 months from now you are driving a$15 ,000 paid for car instead of being saddled with a stupid butt car payment of$750. That's a scenario that shows you a way out. Instead of like, drive a hooptie.

42:33That doesn't take me anywhere. I need something more than that. So where are we going with this thing? That's what Rachel's saying, and that's the way to handle it, Jake. And you're a good man, she's a good woman, this is going to work out for you guys. It's going to be okay.

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44:02welcome back to the ramsey show in the fair winds credit union studio i'm dave ramsey your host happy thanksgiving to you rachel cruz number one best-selling author host of the rachel cruz show Ramsey personality my daughter is my co-host Thanksgiving around Ramsey We're pretty much a cheese factory around here We like celebrating this stuff and we like Christmas And we like anything that makes the kiddos smile Which makes Papa Dave smile and makes the mom and daddy smile And that's what Turkey does So we are a thankful family We believe in gratitude We believe in generosity These are things that bring you great happiness So when you call in today Your ticket of entry is going to be what you are thankful for.

44:46The phone number is 888-825-5225. Mike is with us in Tampa, Florida. Mike, what are you thankful for? I'm thankful for my wife and the life we have here in Florida. Awesome. How can we help? Yeah, Dave. My wife and I have been using every dollar for the last 10 years. We went through Financial Peace University, and we've been debt-free for five years. I'm at retirement age now, and we're a blended family with four adult kids. And one of my adult children, a daughter, eloped with her now husband to Hawaii last year and just sent me a text and said that they're going to have a wedding, a destination wedding in Spain this summer.

45:34and traditionally it's the parents' family's responsibilities to pay for that wedding or to contribute. And my wife and I discussed it. We don't agree with that. They will have been married over two years by the time this event takes place, and we don't feel obligated to support that. And just wanted to get your advice. I like it. I mean, it's your money. So where did this entitlement that she's entitled for this come from? I think she was raised that way by my ex. Okay. There's some of that attitude. Was there any discussion, Mike, a year ago before they eloped that you guys were going to plan a wedding and you were going to help with it and then they were like, you know what?

46:25We just want to elope. Was there ever discussions, any expectations that was set at any point that you were going to help? Or is this just like, okay, so that was never even talked about. Has another daughter gotten married and you paid for it and you said, well, whatever we did for her, we'll do for everyone? Nope. No, I didn't. My oldest daughter got married, didn't ask for anything. We went to the wedding. Oh, wow. Yeah, but this daughter, they waited a month to call us and even tell us they were married. And we went up as soon as we heard. We bought airline tickets, went to where they live.

47:03We went up for the weekend to celebrate their wedding, took them out to dinner, spent the weekend with them. And we felt like that that was the right thing to do. Yeah, totally. And now she's in Spain. Wait a minute. So how long have you been divorced from her mom? 20 years. Okay. And she's how old? 33 okay so she was 13 correct okay and um so a lot of times in that scenario um you end up build rebuilding a relationship a decade after the divorce does that sound right huh yeah yeah she we had a call last sunday and she pretty much unloaded that kind of stuff on me that goes back to when I remarried so yeah yeah yeah okay so um the reason I bring that up is the way you described she didn't tell you she's married so we're gonna go visit that kind of felt like olive branch stuff from someone you're not real close to yeah I'm not frankly not close with any of my daughters okay for for pretty much the same reasons yeah yeah because divorce is nasty yeah and um yeah yeah okay so then this request is not entitlement it's a guilt trip uh partially and partially i think it is i think she does have what i call the princess complex she she feels like she comes for money and yeah um i mean she'd have to go find that source because you're apparently not it but maybe you have it, but that doesn't mean it's hers.

48:51Yeah. Yeah. I'm, you know, so here's the thing. Pick up a book by Dr. Henry Cloud called Boundaries, and you and your current wife read that because you need to be prepared. She does not respect boundaries, and when you set boundaries with a boundaryless person, they seldom react positively. in other words there's not any version of no she's going to be okay with right and um and so i just want you to be prepared for that because there's some heartbreak that goes with that so i mean you've been trying to reach out you've been trying to re-engage as her dad as an adult dad a dad of an adult daughter and now she's coming in with this wild thing and it's going to harm whatever positive moves you've made, but that is also still the proper thing to do.

49:50But I just want you to know this is not going to be easy for you. It's going to hurt. Right. Because she's going to throw a fit and say, I'm never going to speak to you again or something like that. Well, she's going to turn into the victim. Yeah. Yeah, it's already happening. You've never been there for me, and you're not there for me now, you know, and this kind of bullcrap, right? Yes, sir. That's the exact conversation we had last week. Yeah. So you already told her now? Yes. She basically pushed it, so I called her to ask her, you know, why this place, why they felt like they needed to have another event after they were already married.

50:29It didn't make sense to me. And they both went and got master MBAs, and I don't think financially that they should be spending money on a destination. I think they've probably got some student debt. I don't know. I don't know their finances, but I would assume that. And so, yeah, I just don't think they're making wise decisions. And I actually shared that. I thought maybe they could have made a different decision. She didn't like my answer. There's no form of no. So, but piling on to their financial decisions, it probably didn't help at all. So, but the, anyway, I think I would just keep it very clean and very simple and just say, listen, my love for you and my desire to have a relationship with you guys going forward has nothing to do with money.

51:22And it has nothing to do with how you handle your money. And it has nothing to do with Spain. um you know i but i'm not i i don't feel at this stage the way our relationship is today the way your life is built today we don't feel good about this and so we're not willing to pay for this i'm so sorry i know you probably don't understand that and i i i'm prepared for you to not understand that yeah i almost would be i would caution putting it on a condition on her i wonder if If it's a, hey, we've talked and we've decided we're choosing not to spend this money. We're looking at the situation. My hope is that, Mike, you know, that there is some reconciliation in the relationship.

52:02But again, this is going to be a barrier to that, which is so sad. It was going so well until she started demanding that. Right, right. We like the husband. We offered to come and support the event. And we told her that, you know, we had put in our budget for all the travel and all to go, but that we just couldn't afford to also contribute. I'm not going to pay for it. I don't think you're wrong. I don't think you're wrong at all. I just want you to be prepared for the backlash. I'm sorry.

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54:18countdown to christmas is on do you believe it ton of great deals for black friday and cyber monday right now with us special one-day sales and we're talking hardcover books audiobooks assessments all stuff as low as three dollars and 99 cents what yeah check it out go to ramsey solutions.com slash store click the link in the description if you want that might be the easiest way to get there. Thomas is with us in Austin, Texas. Thomas, what are you thankful for? Hi, my wife and kids. Cool. How can we help? Hey, so I'm on Babyship 3. I've been doing great following the health plan, and recently I got approached by a family member about some financial advising.

55:01So we did a couple sessions, but now they're trying to tell me that my term life policy is not great, and I should be getting disability insurance and term 80, and it just all feels like more of a self-pitch than financial advising. And now as a family member, I don't know how to think about it. Am I crazy? And I just don't know how to approach that. Okay. So what you're telling me is that you smell stink. Yes, sir. Okay. Then end the conversation. Absolutely. The first sessions were great. I don't care what they're selling. Even if what they're selling is good, you always end the conversation around money when you smell stink.

55:46Because your smeller is better than anything out there. Trust your instincts is what I'm saying. Okay? I don't know what this product is. You haven't described it. I don't even know what the family member does. I don't know if they know what they were doing. Maybe they were changing oil at Jiffy Lube three weeks ago. Now they're a financial planner. That happens fairly often. Okay. I don't know any of that. But you smell stink, Thomas, and I trust your smell. Just end it based on that. Just say, listen, thank you for the help so far. We love you. We're just going to remain good family members, and we're not going to move forward with any financial products with a family member at this time.

56:32Have you already put your money with them, Thomas? No, not yet. Okay, okay. Don't. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so just stay with what I got through the course. Yeah, don't argue about the products. Don't argue about family. Don't argue. No is a complete sentence. This is a very quick, calm, kind sentence. We've talked about it, my wife and I, and we've decided not to move forward with any financial products at this time. Yeah, and we just want to keep our money and our family members separate. And it just feels cleaner that way. Thank you. Thank you so much for offering all this. We appreciate it. Have a good night.

57:18Bye-bye. It's like a 15 or a 20-second thing here. We're not getting into a day-long debate about this. Okay. Okay. So what I want to do is give the power back to you. How close is the family member, Thomas? Is it a sibling? Is it an aunt or uncle? No. It's a cousin. It's a cousin, okay. Cousin Eddie. Yeah. It's got stink on it. So listen, here's the thing. How long has cousin been in the business, financial business? A couple months. We just graduated college this year. Oh, okay. Yeah. I think you're good. Yeah. So you're smelling the right smell. Now, let me tell you about the business, okay, from the outside in, just to give you some more power.

58:00I don't want you to share any of this with cousin. I just want you to have the knowledge base, okay, because it will give you some strength. 80 % of the people that start selling life insurance are out of the business in 12 months. Wow. Yeah. Here's what their life insurance business is based on. They hire your cousin so he can work what's called his natural market. That's what they call it. His natural market are people that he has influence with, not because of his financial ability, but because of his relationships. And so he calls his old friends from high school, his fraternity brothers from college.

58:43He calls his wife's friend on the soccer field. He calls all of his cousins, and he sits down. And once he's run through that list, he's out of prospects and he goes out of business because they don't furnish him any new leads. They use people to get to their relationships. That's their marketing model. It's called working the natural market. And that's why 80 % of them, once they run through their natural list, they're out of the business. And that doesn't mean they're bad people, but your cousin is, quite frankly, being taken advantage of.

59:23you see what i'm saying so if you put your money with them you're not going to be working with him in a year he won't be there anymore 80 of the time so he couldn't get a better job this is the one he took bless his or he fell for a sales pitch of how much money he could make and yeah Yeah. Yeah. And all that bullcrap. So please walk away. And especially and let me just give you this. I'm like, he just graduated college a few months. I'm like, he's just a kid. So like, genuinely, if he was like, had been in the business for 30 years and he had a reputation. Do you know what I mean, though? And I think it would be kind of a harder kind of slap in the face of like, dude, this is my job.

1:00:05I've been doing this for 30 years. And you know what I mean? If it's your old uncle and he's good at it, it'd be kind of like, oh, sorry, that's awkward. But he's like a 21-year-old who just started this. So I'm like, yeah, you're good. He's selling knives next week. And we don't want to buy the knives either. Thank you, Cutco. No, Cutco is great knives. Yeah, but guess who sells them? Same exact model. Which is great. Same exact model. You go sell your grandma, you go sell your aunt some knives, and then you're out of the business. I know. And that's when you work your natural markets. Exact same pots and pans thing.

1:00:35It's an old marketing distribution method. It's been around forever. It's not a, and it's not a, okay. If you don't think the person's going to succeed once they finish working their list and you're only hiring them to access their list, that is wrong. Yes, that's ethically wrong. I would disagree with you. That's fair. Okay. I just think about the Girl Scouts, you know? They go to the neighbors. I don't know. It's not bad. Well, the Girl Scouts are not making a career off of your money. That's fair. Okay, that's fair. They're just making you fat with the thin mints. That's fair. That's fair. Yeah.

1:01:05We love the Girl Scouts. We love you. And so, yeah, that's it. That's how the thing works. Now, so there's a good rule of thumb. What I'm trying to get you to do, everybody out here, is trust your instincts, okay? I just love the proverb that says, The simple sees danger and moves forward and is harmed for it. The wise senses danger and seeks refuge and becomes safe. and so when we go against this smell test every one of us have that moment we're in the middle of doing something stupid with money and you have the opportunity to not do it and you go I knew better I knew better how many of you have done something dumb and you look back and you go right in the middle of it I knew it but I just was caught up in the moment I was caught up and it was a family member and I just felt guilty and I felt trapped and that and you you knew though that it was bad and thomas i'm just telling you man trust the smell and it doesn't mean your cousin's a bad dude i'm not saying that i'm not even sure these products are bad i think they probably are i think it's probably whole life bullcrap but um but i'm not sure i don't know who what it is or what he's selling um doesn't matter the point is you don't need to be doing business with him and because the hair stood up on the back of your neck rattlesnake in the bush That's what happens.

1:02:33Your body has a physical reaction when you sense danger. And it's the lizard brain prompting you and going, don't do it. Smells bad. Skunk in the bush. Don't get over there. You know, it's a simple thing. But we get all, all of us get all intellectual and sophisticated and rationalize our way past. And want to be nice. That's amazing. And we want to be nice. We want to pass, you know, and we just walk right past the stink right into the skunk. Yep. Yep. There's a book, The Gift of Fear. and it's a guy who used to do security, but he wrote this whole book and mostly towards women about physical safety, but how many stories.

1:03:09It's like, oh, I got a bad feeling, but I still let him help me unload my groceries to my door. You know what I mean? Like bad things happen. And it's like that whole, I mean, that's like his number one thing. And don't be afraid that like, you know, you want to be a kind person, but sometimes it's like, you don't have to be nice. It's okay. It's real. Better be not nice than dead. Yes, the gut reaction is true. So Thomas, whether it's this or something else, trust your instincts. It's God's spirit in you speaking up. It's saying, don't do it. Don't do it. And you notice how quickly I took you there, Thomas.

1:03:41I didn't even know what was going on. I was depending on that smell test.

1:04:03you

1:04:36This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. to ask yourself what do you want this year and to make room for peace. That's why I recommend BetterHelp. BetterHelp has over 30 ,000 licensed therapists that have helped over 5 million people worldwide with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 stars. BetterHelp is online so it fits around your schedule even during the chaotic holiday times. You get online and just answer a few questions and they'll match you with someone who fits your needs. And if your therapist is not the right fit, you can switch any time for no extra cost. This month, start a new tradition by taking care of you.

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1:05:42Well, it is the season. It's that time of year. In a few weeks, we're going to be doing a special giving edition of the Ramsey Show. We want to hear stories from you about how generosity has impacted you. Maybe you've been the giver or the receiver. Maybe you've had an incredible story that will inspire others to give by something that happened to you or through you. We want to hear about it. Go to RamseySolutions.com slash ask and put giving in the subject line. We do this every year at Christmas time, and it is one of our most popular shows. It's going to be December the 18th, so start sending in your stories now.

1:06:21RamseySolutions.com slash ask. Put giving in the subject line and tell us a little bit about the story, and we'll get in touch with you and make you part of our annual giving show. It's very inspiring. John is in Los Angeles. Hey, John, how are you? I'm doing well, Dave. Pleasure to talk to you today. You too. How can we help? So, quick question for you. A little advice. I have a feeling I know what you're going to say, but I just need confirmation, I guess. So, father of six, been married for 15 years, income around just north of 200. We have zero consumer debt. I have an outstanding mortgage balance of about 220 with a mortgage rate of about 2.875.

1:07:11I've come into a sum of money, which is about 200. And so what I want to do, what I think I know I should do is just pay off the house and move on with my life. But that's easier said and done when you're sitting in the driver's seat and you got that interest rate. Okay. There's several layers to the answer. Okay. I'll give you a couple of the layers, a couple of the lenses through which you can look at this that reinforce the answer. Number one, we did the largest study of millionaires ever done in North America. Ramsey Research Team, 10 ,167 of them. The number of them out of 10 ,000 millionaires, 89 % of them were first-generation rich, meaning they were not inherited money.

1:08:10Nine out of 10 of America's millionaires are first-generation rich. Then we start asking, okay, how'd you get there? What technique did you use? Where'd your money come from? Did you win the lottery? The number of them that said I had a good interest rate on my mortgage, so I didn't pay it off, and I invested the difference, and that made me a millionaire, the number of them that said that is precisely zero. So this idea that you use borrowed money on your house to become wealthy is mythology. It's not true. It doesn't happen in the real world. So your theory is bull crap is what I'm saying. It's not your theory.

1:08:53It's a theory that floats all through our culture. Yeah, but you can just understand how that works. I can understand it, but I'm telling you what – I understand how you got there, but I'm telling you what the data says. Okay, so that's one way of looking at it. The second way of looking at it is through a spiritual lens. the borrower is slave to the lender, and people react to their careers differently and their generosity differently when they don't have a house payment. Yeah. Regardless of the interest rate. And so they tend to maximize their careers because they're not trapped. Yeah. And they don't feel like they have to put up with some unethical or inefficient efficient or crummy job because I got this stupid house payment, even though the interest rate's great.

1:09:42And John, out of all the people we've talked to throughout the years, whether it's at events, on the show, and people that have paid off their house, and we ask them, do you regret it? Do you hate having a paid off house? Precisely zero. Nobody, nobody regrets it. And even if you do regret it, you can go pull out a mortgage again. If you want to Google Dave Ramsey sucks, you'll see a lot of reasons that i suck oh yeah but never never one time will you see that dave told me to pay off my house and i hate him there's not one they'll tell you i suck for a lot of other reasons that i'm awful you know i don't think you said i know but i'm just saying it's just weird of all the of all the trolling and all the critics we get they're all people that haven't paid off their houses but we don't get people that paid off their house because i told them to that are mad at me None.

1:10:34Zero. Nada. So do it. Pay it off and enjoy your great life, dude. And if you hate being debt free, go get you a new mortgage later. You know, you can always go back in debt. I promise you they'll put your butt there if you want to be there. Tyler is in Atlanta. Hey, Tyler, what's up? Hey, Dave. How are you? Better than I deserve. What are you thankful for today? Just another grateful day on earth. That's all you can wish for. Amen. How can we help? So me and my wife, we got married in May. We are actually we got married at the courthouse, but we're having a wedding in March of next year. So not a lot of people know that we're married and we live in Atlanta now and we're going to move back home down south.

1:11:25We have a couple thousand saved up in the bank. My wife wants to buy a house immediately when we move, but I want to live with my parents or her parents for a couple months and save up even more for a bigger down payment so we don't have more of a payment on a house and be able to save for the future. How old are you guys? I am 24. She is 26. And what's your household income, sir? Eight grand a month. okay there's nothing evil about any of the choices that you put in front of me uh there's only things that are smarter one thing's smarter than another thing that's the only question okay so in other words if you do any of these things you're probably not going to ruin your life you follow me so if you move in with your parents probably not going to kill you for a little while if you go buy a house probably not going to kill you my answer is i wouldn't do either one of those things.

1:12:22I'd go rent a one-bedroom apartment for a year, as cheap as I possibly could, over the garage of a rich old lady's house and mow her grass for half the rent, and pile up as much cash as you can pile, and don't be living with your mommy. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'd pile up as much cash as I could pile up and learn the neighborhood and learn the area, because it takes a year of being married to know how far from your mother-in-law you should buy. Oh, yeah. They're great people.

1:12:59I'm talking about your wife.

1:13:04Yeah, Tyler, be newlyweds and not go share a kitchen with your parents. Yeah, you make eight grand a month. You're killing it. Yeah, just go. Y 'all go rent somewhere for a year. And you're going to a small town, I got a feeling. Yeah, yeah. And we're in Atlanta. Whose town is it, yours or hers? It's actually both of ours. We both grew up there. Both of our parents are there. Okay. So you know the town. Tyler, are you guys debt-free, consumer debt-wise? Or do you all have payments? So we have a little bit of debt, probably altogether. It's probably$10 ,000, but we have$70 ,000 in the savings. $70 ,000?

1:13:49Yes,$70 ,000 in the savings. Okay.

1:13:55Our$6 ,000 is for our honeymoon, and then we have some other. Yeah, pay that off tonight, honey. Okay. It's not a pet. Absolutely. Get rid of it. Absolutely. Yeah, it's not the case. Yeah, and then you guys figure out, you know, your emergency fund, which is going to be part of the 70. And then beyond that, what you want to save in a year for a down payment. Because you guys are getting close. And with a small town, hopefully housing prices, you know, it's not like the Bay Area. So hopefully you can get into something. And it'll be great. Yeah, and I can modify it a little bit since I found out both of you are from there.

1:14:31And it's a small geographical area. You already know the town. So I don't have to give you a whole year, but at least six months. Just go rent something for six months. get settled in become married people everybody knows you're married it's a March thing happens all that stuff and then you start looking for a house and by then you can have saved up a little bit more money and that's quick that time is fast you guys are going to be fine you're going to be fine just yeah it's a marathon it's not a sprint you're doing good

1:15:11Thank you.

1:15:47Sylvia is in Seattle. Hey, Sylvia, what are you thankful for? Well, Dave, this is a hard Thanksgiving. My sister died a few months ago. I'm sorry. The holidays are difficult, to say the least, but I do have things to be thankful for, and so I'm trying, she would want me to live and not to, you know, just survive. So that's what I'm trying to do. Good for you. And so thank you for asking. That's a healthy outlook. So, yeah, people need to, I'm a registered nurse, and so people need to understand how important their health is. Dave, real quick, I'm a registered nurse. I'm 66. I retire in June, 40 years, emergency and pandemic and such.

1:16:41I was raised, I'm the youngest of seven Army brat and was raised by parents in the Depression, telling us to pay yourself first, know the difference between wants and needs, and to save. And so that's what I've been doing. Currently, I have a home I just bought a year ago after losing one in the recession in 2008. It took me a while to build back up, but I bought a year ago. That's my only debt. That mortgage is$3 ,400 a month. I have an emergency fund of about$130 ,000. I have investments of about$1.2 million. and I'll get$3 ,500 in Social Security and$2 ,000 in a pension. My question to you, which is different from most, is my whole life, my father's voice is in my ear to save, save, save.

1:17:41My financial counselor now tells me, Ena, it's time to rent or to start spending. So I don't know how, because in my head, it's like, keep saving, keep saving. And so I wondered if you could help me or give me some advice as to how I flip that switch and start to live. My sister would want me. One detail. What is the balance on your mortgage? $500. Ooh. Okay. All right. But to your question then, there are only three things that we can do with money. We can save it and invest it, which you have done with glory. You're a millionaire. Way to go. Congratulations. By the way, what's the home worth?

1:18:40About$850 ,000. Okay. All right. So you're worth about$1.5 million is your net worth. Okay. Okay. And the, so that's absolutely incredible. You're a millionaire nurse at 66 years old. And you're obviously, with the language you're using, single. Were you ever married? I was. Part of that whole early on in my 40s, we got divorced and he had debt that I had to pay off. So, you know, it's taking a while. So that also left a mark, yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Again, there's three things that we can do. So Rachel and I wrote a book years ago. It was her first number one bestseller called Smart Money, Smart Kids on teaching children how to handle money.

1:19:31And we taught children that there are three things that they can do with money. And a parent's job is to teach them to do all three things, to give, to save, and to spend wisely. Okay? And to teach them to work, which is where money comes from to do all three of those things. So that's the lessons we teach kids. As adults, there's only three things we can do with money. We can give it, we can save it, and we can enjoy it or spend it, which is what your counselor is saying. Now, we don't want to ever do just one because it's not a well-rounded life. And that's what your counselor is saying. You've become an expert saver.

1:20:13Your savings muscle is really big. You have big muscles on the savings side. Your spending muscle is puny. Your giving muscle is probably underdeveloped. Am I right? Not accusing you of being greedy. I'm just saying you don't give a lot of money. I, you know, give to my church. What I have done, I don't have children, and my will, I finished my will. I'm talking about your monthly giving in your budget. Yeah, so it's other than to my church and what have you, yeah. Yeah, and that's$50 or$100 or something, yeah. Right. Yeah, okay. That's what I'm saying. And you're a millionaire, almost a multimillionaire.

1:21:06So I want you to increase your giving. I don't care to what, and I want you to increase your spending. Now, I don't want you to be irresponsible. If your$1.2 million is invested in mutual funds, it should be producing about$10 ,000 a month in income. You don't need that much income. Yeah. How much income do you – you're going to have$3 ,500 already coming in. And$2 ,000 with a pension. And so you're going to be at$5 ,500 coming in. And can you live on that comfortably? I'm living on that now. Okay. You know. All right, good. I mean, do you want to live on that, or do you want to spend more than that?

1:21:48I mean, both my sisters, you know, as I told you recently past, were going to do some things once I retired. They already had. Now they're gone. You know, I guess I'll, you know, I don't know what I'm, I've got to start thinking about what I'm going to do when I retire as a nurse. Travel? You know. Right. I don't want to travel by myself, but yes, I can travel. Okay. Yeah, I got to start thinking about this stuff. And yes, I will be giving away my money. My sister did. I don't mean, I'm not saying, all I'm saying is that I want you, instead of giving$100 away a month, I want you to give away$1 ,000 a month.

1:22:28Yeah. And just find somebody that needs some groceries, you know. Right. And just because there's great joy in that. And then I want you to look up and I want you to say, I'm making$10 ,000 a month on my investments above what I need to live. What does that look like on spending? What are we going to spend some of that on? I don't want you to spend it all. But here's the point. If you spend$15 ,000 a month for the rest of your life, including your pension income and your investment income you will die with 1.2 million dollars you're okay you did it yeah okay that and if you get that math in your head then it gives you permission not to be crazy i don't want you to go spend 300 000 on a car that's not what i'm saying Okay?

1:23:28But I am saying$15 ,000 a month is way more than you ever thought about spending. That blows your mind just saying that, doesn't it? Yes, it does. I can't imagine. And I don't think you're going to do that. The chances of you overspending are zero. Now, what about this mortgage? Yeah, I'm worried about this mortgage. I want this mortgage to go away. That becomes a second part of the goal is we need to clear this debt because it's the most destabilizing thing in your life right now. It's a big mortgage. And I don't really feel good about taking$500 ,000 out of your$1.2 and paying it off today. But I'm going to start working out of that$15 ,000 a month and work that mortgage down too.

1:24:14Okay. Because I'd like you to have no mortgage. Okay. And so I want you to build up your generosity muscle and your spending muscle up to, and your debt reduction muscle, those three things, up to$15 ,000 a month once you start drawing down on the$1.2. So you sit down with your financial advisor and you start drawing the income off of the$1.2 to go with your pension and go with your other stuff and you throw it in a checking account. Any part of you would just take like$200 of it and just kind of make a dent? I'd like to get the mortgage down a ways and then just knock it off. Yeah, yeah. I don't want to make a front-end dent.

1:24:54I'd make a back-end dent, probably. I just, she's, you know, we've first got to get her enjoying the money a little bit. Yes. It's time, for sure. So I think you've got a good person in your corner, whoever that is, counseling you. I like their advice. Good question, Sylvia. The chances of you overspending are almost zero. No chance we could get you in Congress.

1:25:48Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studios. It's Thanksgiving Eve here at Ramsey, so we are asking you what you're thankful for, and there's always something to be thankful for. And stopping, and as the old saying says, count your blessings is not a bad idea. By the way, it's your entry to the show today. If you want to get on, we're going to ask you what you're thankful for. That's how it works. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author. My daughter is my co-host today. Noah is with us in Cincinnati. Hi, Noah. What are you thankful for?

1:26:28Oh, gosh, too much. My family and friends and everything in between. How are you guys? Better than we deserve, sir. How can we help today? Well, I have been wondering for, gosh, a year or two now if I should buy a new car. My wife has a nice car. It's probably worth about$20 ,000. It's kind of a family car. I drive a van for work And I drive when I need to I have about a$2 ,000 car And there's nothing wrong with it And I drive it all the time And I guess I'm I haven't bought a new car Because it feels kind of frivolous Because I don't need it And I've been looking at them for so long And I just am not sure if I should do it How much money do you have, Noah?

1:27:25Well, I know what you're going to say. You're going to laugh at me. I've got probably about$540 ,000 between investments and a brokerage account. Okay. Why would I laugh at you? That's great. Well done. Yeah, I guess because I'm just so hung up on buying a car. So we're going to say you have enough money. Do you have any debt? Yes. No, just a house. Okay. What do you owe on your house? About$200. Okay. All right. I'd buy a$10 ,000 car and pay off your house. I thought you might say that. How about a$30 ,000 car? I don't care. You got the money. Okay. I don't know why you want to go from$300 ,000 to$30 ,000, but if you want to, I don't care.

1:28:22Yeah. And what's your household income, sir? About$175 ,000. Okay. And so the two cars together would be about$50 ,000, and that's way less than half your annual income. And, yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. That fits. Pay cash for it and pay off your house. um and so uh yeah uh you're not doing anything wrong but i would move up in car just from a reliability standpoint and you know it's just they don't make them like they used to thank god um new cars and the newer models are a lot nicer i mean i've got a 1960 corvette rebuilt and you know and i've got a fairly new corvette and the new one's a lot better you know so yeah i'd move up a little bit you know and um the other one's kind of a cool antique i mean but it's not you know it's uh um yeah the other one's a better ride you'll yeah enjoy it noah yeah enjoy it you're doing a good job some fun this holiday season but it's just you know we're gonna give you permission to have lived like no one else so that somehow making a hundred and what was 175 000 a year you amassed 550 000 now let's do something smart with it now if you said five million i probably would have laughed but i won't laugh at half a million noah that's not the laugh level the laugh level has seven figures but you can afford it noah so do it enjoy y 'all worked hard you've done it you've done you've done a great job saul's in boston hey saul what's up hi there i'm very good i'm so excited to be on the phone with you guys you too what's up oh by the way what are you thankful for Oh, I'm thankful for my friends.

1:30:06Yeah, definitely. I have a great group of friends that I'm super thankful for. Oh, I love that. Very good. How can we help today? Yeah. Yeah, so my husband is 25. I'm 26 years old, no children. Our household income is$110 ,000 a year. We are currently living on my income and saving his income, which is$4 ,000 a month. Next year, we're planning to start a long journey of savings to buy our first home cash. We made our minds that we don't want to owe a penny to anyone ever. And our goal is to save$500 ,000. We live in Massachusetts, so the real estate here is very expensive. We concluded that we will achieve that in a max of seven years.

1:30:50As long as I leave my current job, I have a master's degree, and I'm currently working with a career coach to get a higher salary. Additionally, while saving for the house, we're thinking of maxing out both of our Roth IRAs every year so that we don't fall behind in our retirement goals and then save more aggressively afterwards. But the reason why I'm calling is one of the biggest arguments in this journey is a house that is worth$500 ,000 now could very much be worth like$900 ,000 in seven years. So I just would love to hear your expertise and perspective on that. And do you have any recommendations on how to invest those savings so that they can grow between now and then?

1:31:36Okay. Well, the savings, if you're going to leave it alone three years or more, we would move a bunch of it towards something like an index fund into a good mutual fund, like an S &P 500, so that it's growing a lot faster than a high-yield savings account. But if it's three years or under, and a portion of it, either way, I'm going to leave in high-yield savings so that you're earning some. But really the interest rate or the return on your money is not going to get you the house. It's your savings rate, the amount you put in that gets you the house. So if you make 3 % or you make 10%, it's not going to be that big a difference in a short period of time, like three to five years, before you get a house.

1:32:19The second thing is that life never works on a straight line. And what you've done is you've taken the current life that you have, the snapshot of today, freeze frame, and you projected that out. And life doesn't work that way. Okay. 100 % of the time, five years from today, your income is going to be different than it is today. Usually it's going to be more. Yeah. Okay. And we don't know what exactly, but typically on a career track like you guys are on at your age, your income is going to hockey stick. It's going to go on a curve upward, and that's going to impact the five to seven year and probably turn it into a three to a four year.

1:33:06And that changes the discussion on how much houses will have gone up in value. I don't borrow money for anything ever. so it doesn't matter to me what they go up. I simply cannot buy until I have the money.

1:33:26Now, there's only one thing on this show that I don't do personally that I tell other people they can do, and that's take out a small mortgage on a 15-year fixed and pay it off as soon as possible. I won't do that, but I don't yell at you for that one thing. I don't borrow on anything else, and I will yell at you for borrowing on other things because it's dumb. Okay. But if you saved up half of this money and you bought in two years, that would truncate even more of the weight and the increase in value during that time. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a good plan, Saul, but I would be, yes, I would still be investing 15%, even if that's more than maxing out the Roths during this plan.

1:34:12I would be saving in retirement. Yeah, I think you got too long. If you're going to be more than three years, you need to be maxing. You need to be putting your 15 % baby step four aside.

1:34:30Do you want to keep more money in your pocket and not Uncle Sam's? Then listen up. There are tax deductions and credits you could maximize before the end of the year by connecting with an experienced tax professional like a Ramsey trusted tax pro. They know the tax code inside and out, so you don't have to. And they can help you file when tax season rolls around. Get a trusted tax pro by going to RamseySolutions.com slash tax pro. RamseySolutions.com slash tax pro.

1:35:13our question of the day is brought to you by why refi defaulted private student loans don't define you and they don't have control of your future why refi helps you start fresh with low fixed rate refinancing made for real people. Go to yrefi.com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y-R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. Not in all states. Today's question comes from Vince in North Dakota. I have followed your principles for years and do not believe in debt personally or in business. My career has been doing HVAC and plumbing for an employer who has always pushed financing. I recently opened my own business and I don't want to add to the slavery of debt, but I also don't want to lose out on jobs because I refuse to play that game.

1:36:03We charge a fair rate, but I know that I'm running the numbers myself and I see how expensive it is to grow a real business. How do I compete in this industry without resorting to pushing debt on my customers? There's plenty of heat and air guys that run huge businesses without being pushing debt. Some of them just let the customer get their own financing. A lot of people put it on a credit card or they run over at the bank and borrow the money. But the heat and air company doesn't have to furnish the financing to be successful. Now, if you're going to work a lower-end market, you're probably going to struggle because the people you're competing against there are probably signing up the thing.

1:36:50And, you know, for instance, on the car lot, okay, the car dealers today on new cars make more money profit per car on the financing package than they do on the sale of the car. And that could be true of some heat and air companies that are pushing financing hard, that they're selling the paper and or they're getting paid a kick from the finance company for pushing the paper and they're making as much on that as they are on the actual heat and air unit but that's not normal in the industry you know your father-in-law's in the heat and air business yeah and your brother-in-law with him and they don't they don't push financing and they make a really good living and we know a bunch of other people in the business over the years and And so, but I do know some people that are, quote, more retail.

1:37:45And you can kind of tell by their advertising. When you hear their ads or you see their ads, you kind of can tell, oh, they're going to want me to finance this because they're going to charge a lot, you know. And so, you know, I think you provide a fair rate. Some customers are going to finance, and I wouldn't not do business with them because they chose to go pay for it the way they wanted to pay for it. that's not your that's not your obligation yeah yeah but in terms of you know you're in the heat and air business you're not in the banking business as long as you stay there you're going to know that the product you're selling is expensive Vince I mean like that's one of the biggest expenses so you can't be shocked if people don't have the cash because 40 percent of Americans can't even cover a 400 emergency so you are in an industry that's expensive so it's um yeah you shouldn't be shocked if they a lot of people use it you know i think the difference is where you get the icky factor in the heat and air world is where they think they're in the banking business where they're peddling it hard and your old employer was one of those yeah that's where you that's where you get the ick factor okay so if it's somewhere around your business or in your business so for instance i talked to a guy the other day he's in the he owns two pizza uh locations he makes pizzas restaurants and he said am i doing something wrong by taking credit cards for the pizza.

1:39:06And I'm like, good Lord, no. Now, would Ramsey Solutions be doing something wrong to take credit cards? Yeah, because we're telling people actively like our brand is telling people not to have a credit card. So if you came into our bookstore and used a credit card and we let you do that, that would be hypocritical on our part because it's straight up unethical based on our advice. It's hypocritical. But now when you're in the pizza business i'm in the get out of debt business i'm not a pizza you're in the pizza business if you take credit cards at your pizza restaurant it's the same machine use a debit card on and so either way you're going to be paying your merchant fees on both of them and lowers your profits and um it'd be weird if you were a diet company but then you're selling ice cream as they're walking out the door that feels hypocritical right i mean like you know so i mean it's but that's not your industry.

1:39:56So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you have a health food store and, you know, but you sell Snickers, you know, I mean, that's a problem, you know what I mean? But that's the thing you're looking for on the ethics side of things. So I would have it available or have a local, you know, hey, the bank, this credit union over here finances for some people and you can call George over there and Henry over there, they'll do it. And, you know, I'd have that available if I were you, but I wouldn't be peddling it. That's the difference. You know, I'd say this is how some people do it. They put it on a credit card.

1:40:27Some people do this. Some people, I fix it and just get it to where it limps along so they can save up the money. And then I come back next year and put in the new unit. And sometimes we do that with people. And those people are going to remember you as the person who helped them with their heating and air, not who got them into debt. And so that's, you know you're fine i think you know it just just remember what business you're in that's what screws up i mean like victoria's secret forgot they were in the small underwear business you know they make more money on their credit card lines than they do on the small underwear okay and so the girls that work in victoria's secret if you don't sell a certain number of credit cards per shift regardless of how much small underwear you sell you don't get to keep your job because they got in the credit card business.

1:41:16It used to be like that. I don't know how it is now. Well, I mean. But that used to be a big. That was a big deal. Yes. And so there's all these companies that got confused. Sears got in that business and then they went bankrupt. Yeah. Pennies got in that business and then they went bankrupt. And so you just see this stuff. They get confused about what business they're in. Be in the business you're in. And if there's financing around it, so what? Unless you're teaching people like we are not to go into debt. And then that would be the, you know, the diet place selling ice cream, as Rachel said.

1:41:46That's true. All right. Up next is going to be Dave in San Antonio. Hey, Dave, what's up? Hey, how are you? Better than I deserve. How can I help? Well, I am currently living in South Texas. My family and I have a wife, three, two, well, it was two, now three kids looking after my nephew. We would like to move to Nashville, and I want to do that as soon as financially feasible. I have two jobs at the moment. I was active duty in the Marine Corps for 14 years. I still do that as a reservist. Do you want net or gross figures typically? I want them. Gross. Gross. Gross. The military is grossing me about, where did it go?

1:42:35Sorry, I'll get back to you in a second. It's around about$5 ,000 or so. And then I also fly for an airline, which would make it very convenient for me to be your neighbor in Franklin. That's grossing me about just under$21 ,000 a month. I'm sorry, there it is. They're military, about$4 ,400, and airline, about$21 ,000. Okay. So what are you waiting on to move if you want to move? Well, unfortunately, the military thing that I do down in South Texas is very convenient because I do that five minutes. Oh, I thought it was military retirement. I'm sorry. Okay. No, no, no. It's actually a side hustle.

1:43:23Okay, so you go from$25 ,000 to$21 ,000 income if you moved without the military thing. Yeah, roughly. but it also makes the 20-year retirement for the military a lot harder to get because, you know, a full schedule for me flying for the airline is working about 12 days a month, which is great. I have great flexibility. I can pick up extra. I also have to fly on base about five days a month. Now, that's easy. Take the kids to school, go fly on base, and then I'm done by like two. So that part's simple. If I were in Nashville, that's two legs on a plane. So why would you want to move to Nashville?

1:44:08Variety. South Texas is not a place we want to be for the next 30 years. We're in our early 40s, and we'd like to... How much longer do you have to do the military gig? Two and a half years. We'll do that, and then move. That's kind of what we're thinking. And a bigger question that I've heard you had opinions on as far as building or buying up in Tennessee. I'd probably just buy. You've got enough going on without getting in the building business. Building a house is a lot of work for the consumer.

1:45:04You guys, Cyber Monday is here. And for today only, we're bringing you the lowest prices of the year on some of your favorite products. Seriously, we're talking deals as low as$3.99. Best-selling hardcovers are just$10. Questions for humans cards are marked down as well. Plus, we've got deals on Rachel Cruz wallets and so much more. Don't wait. Grab these deals while you can. Go to RamseySolutions.com slash store today.

1:45:46The all new EveryDollar is here and now it's way more than just our world-class budgeting app. A ton of advanced features to lead you through the baby steps, teach you the Ramsey way while you're simply doing the budget. So it's pretty much like taking you through Financial Peace University in the app. It's pretty cool. We're going to teach you everything you need to do while you're doing this. The average person finds thousands of dollars in margin in just the first 15 minutes. Start every dollar for free today. Get it in the App Store or on Google Play. It's the eve of Thanksgiving. What are you thankful for, Jenny in Savannah?

1:46:26Yes, hi. Yay, so excited to connect with y 'all. You too. What are you thankful for today? Yes, very thankful for my family, my two daughters, and my health. Cool. Good for you. A lot more. How can we help? Okay, so I am 54 years old. I have$75 ,000 in legal fees, about$12 ,000 in credit card debt. But I have two car payments that total about$28 ,000. I make about$86 ,000 a year. I'm paying rent for$2 ,300 a month. The reason why I'm in such horrible financial is because I went through a divorce in 2016. And my ex-husband is an attorney. And so every time I wanted to try to get child support, I had to go back to court.

1:47:14So it's been going on for 10 years. So my question is... How old are the kids now? Sure. Okay. So I have one's a senior in high school and then the other one's a junior in high school. So my question is I have them on scholarships at a private school. I have a 90-year-old father who has asked us to move back in with him to help me pay off all my debt. But that would put my kids about 30 minutes away from their school. and it's kind of a very rural town where he lives. And so I'm wondering, you know, should I stick it out for another year until, you know, my younger one finishes high school and then move in?

1:47:59Or should I just try to move in now just because my rent is really high. It's$2 ,300 a month. Yeah, for Savannah, Georgia, that's really high. Yeah, yeah. So, okay. Okay. So you're kind of looking at your numbers. You don't have a lot of margins, so you're kind of spinning your wheels right now and making huge progress because of all these different – high rent. You've got all these debts looming over you and so forth. What are the boys' plans as they come out of school? Yeah, two daughters. Oh, I'm sorry. I don't know why I thought they were sons. I apologize. No, that's okay. No. So, okay, so I have my oldest daughter just got into, well, she wants to go to Northwestern.

1:48:45She applied early decision for Northwestern, but she got into University of Georgia in the honors program because she would qualify for the Zell Miller Scholarship and the Hope Scholarship. It would be practically free. The younger one, you know, they both definitely are set on college, but the in-state tuition for Georgia is absolutely amazing. But my ex-husband, he lives in Chicago. and he's, you know, just kind of a bug in their ear. And I'm going to be responsible for half of their tuition. No, we're not going to Northwestern. You don't have the money to send a kid to Northwestern. Sorry. Yeah, I agree.

1:49:24I've been trying to talk her out of it. The answer is no. I'm a broke single mom. If your freaking father wants to pay for this, we'll talk about it. But he ain't paying for nothing. no and so you're going to georgia kid now you can couch that a little nicer if you want but that's the bottom line measure go dogs uh-huh they're playing football i mean it's life's good but that's what i want for her which hurts my heart a little but yeah i mean in-state tuition i mean i'll never forget rachel having two people come off the stage and they were two hundred thousand dollars both of them in debt getting married and saying they wanted to be missionaries at Northwestern you were speaking.

1:50:07It's not the well-known Northwestern. It was one outside of Minneapolis. Oh, excuse me. Okay, I just said Northwestern. Still, they both come off the stage making$200 ,000 and getting married. They got$400 ,000 in debt in sociology, and they want to be missionaries. So, no, she's not going to some Northwestern. She can't afford it. Her mother's broke. Well, she says, I don't care. I'll take out all the money. No, I care. I care. I am not participating in this. I'm your mother. This is your destruction. No. This is stupid. I 1 ,000 % agree. It's 100 % stupid. Not even 99. It's 100 % stupid. Okay, so should Jenny move back home?

1:50:51Yeah, no. I mean, whether you move now, when do you want to start making progress? Well, I'm up every night about just sweating over all this. the debt I have. I've been working three jobs. What are the car loans, Jenny? Whose are they? You said we had two different ones. Yeah, so those are both ours. We have three drivers and we had one car. And then I, whatever you said earlier about the car loan, I went in there with $5 ,000 and somehow got sucked into financing it. Yeah, we have two cars. What are the two car loans? Break them down. There's an$18 ,000 for a Hyundai Kona, which is probably worth way less than that.

1:51:37And then there's about a, let's see, I think it's about$10 ,000 for a Hyundai Santa Fe that's got 125 ,000 miles on it. That's the one you got nailed on. Is one of them the girls? Yeah, the second one is the girls. Is dad helping at all? No. No, I don't get any child support. I don't get anything. He got the marital home. He's an attorney. So he really knew what he was doing. He would just file frivolous walkers. Here's the thing. It scares me that you did a bad car deal for your daughter, that you're going to do a bad college deal for your daughter. So please remember the car deal. When you couldn't look at her and say no, this time you've got to say no.

1:52:30You're going to bankrupt your kid. She's going to spend the next 15 years of her life pissed off at you because you don't stand your ground and not let her go to a college she cannot afford. And Georgia's a great school. Georgia's fabulous. Oh, it's great. And Georgia Tech, too, because she's a part of there as well. These are both world-class academic institutions. I don't care if they're in state tuition or not. They really are. They're incredible. I would hire her to work at Ramsey in a heartbeat, more graduating from there debt-free than graduating from Northwestern with$200 ,000 because she's stupid.

1:53:06I don't want to hire that. Yes, I agree. Okay, as an employer. I'm serious. We look at somebody and go. She's not stupid. She's making stupid decisions. That's just dumb. Okay, don't do it. I don't want to leave this call unclear. Yeah. Okay, so now, if you want to go ahead and move to dad, the deal is you just got to drive 30 minutes. Is that right? Yeah, it'll be 30 minutes, and they'll be sad that they're not near. I'm like, yeah, but it's saving me$2 ,300 a month, and he's getting older, and he really is, like, asking. You could probably help him. I mean, 90 years old. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

1:53:45No, we've definitely. I'm sorry that these children have hard times, that they have to go to an in-state school and drive 30 minutes to school. But their mother is a single mom who's deeply in debt because of a nasty divorce. And such is life. Yeah. They will survive these 1 % problems. Exactly. Seriously. Okay. And Ginny, and it's probably a level of guilt on your end as a mom because of the divorce and everything that you're trying to provide a great life for them, right? Your motivation is totally understandable, totally understandable. But you can't let the guilt override really bad financial decisions.

1:54:26When emotions get caught up, that's what we find. When people are fearful, guilt, shame, all of it, they end up making bad financial decisions. So don't let a level of mom guilt of what they've gone through with the divorce continue. What you think in the moment is a good decision for them because it makes them happy ends up being a bad decision long term for them. And so and for you. How far do you drive to work? It's about 20 minutes. Yeah. 25 minutes. Yeah. Well, it's the same. Kind of like 30 minutes. Yeah. Like you drive that far to work. They drive that far to school. Wah. Seriously. You're going to have to do some smart things for your family, honey.

1:55:08Even if it's short term, it creates a little drama or pain. I love you. I appreciate you. You're stronger than you think you are. Hold the ground, girl.

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1:56:20Our scripture of the day is Proverbs 19.21. Many plans are in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord will stand. Thomas Edison said, just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do doesn't mean it's useless. Woo, that's interesting. Okay. So let's go back for a second. Rachel, when we were doing the documentary several years ago called Borrowed Future, which, by the way, you can still watch. It's award-winning on YouTube. It's free. And it's fabulous on the student loan crisis. and one of the things that you said when we were putting all of that together you and i were taking one of those calls on the air was that we don't have a student loan crisis we have a parenting crisis you remember that yes we'd say that in live events yeah yeah well and we always kind of you know 3 000 people in the audience they kind of go oh when you say that right it's like a slap Well, it is because I think there is a level of wisdom as parents that there's certain things you see that are going to harm your kids.

1:57:35And when they're 18, their frontal part of their brain isn't even formed of how to make cause and effect decisions. Right. And so you have to be able to step in on really big things in your kids' lives to be able to speak the truth. truth and I think sometimes you draw a line in the sand and it's black and white and it feels harsh at times and what you have to realize is you are loving your kids even when it's a hard decision and even when there's emotion and they may get mad they may get frustrated but what you have to remember is they're 18 they don't understand they don't understand the life that you have lived.

1:58:16They don't understand what they're about to do is about to put them financially in a hardship for years and years and years where a lot of people regret it. So many people that come out with high student loan debt and they're just, you know, got their MBA and they're just trying to find a job. And they look back and they realize, oh my gosh, I don't even know if the ROI was right on this, right? So whether it is a master's or advanced degree or even an undergrad a degree at a school that is a private university that you could literally get a fourth, you could pay a fourth of what you got for the exact same degree somewhere else.

1:58:56An eighth. Yeah. So it's just, it's a conversation about not only the future of them, but also just make smart financial decisions now, the ROI on what it is. And so, yeah, college is one of those. You can choose as a parent to build your influence throughout your child's life so that you can persuasively lead them away from a college choice that causes student loan debt. Let alone you participating by a parent plus one. And if that won't, and you don't participate, you don't borrow money. Borrowing money is off the table. And we're going to go to a school we can pay cash for. and we're going to go to a school that gives us a return on investment for the education.

1:59:43Okay. In other words, is the extra cost worth it in the sense that you make more or have a higher probability of success due to that? That's the return on investment. It's not, I've always dreamed and my daddy wanted me to, and it's a pretty town, and oh my God, the stupid stuff I have heard here on the air. on college choice. The number one reason for student loan debt is choosing to go to a school that you can't afford. It's not choosing an education. It's choosing a school that you can't afford. So we just had this example. This young lady is an honor student. She can go to Georgia, the University of Georgia, fabulous Southeast school.

2:00:29Business school is strong. She can go there and go for free with the Georgia scholarships that are available. And with the fact that she's stinking honor student and walking in there, they're going to, you know, and she can go virtually free to, you know, one of the top schools in the nation. Or she can go to a name brand school that's more expensive. That's yeah, yeah. Okay. Now, let me tell you how, what the data says. There's zero credible research that says where you went to school causes your success. Zero. None. None-ya. You cannot find any data that says Vanderbilt and Harvard over Georgia, Northwestern over Georgia causes success.

2:01:19No data. There's no one has ever been able to find a credible study on that. It doesn't exist. it's bull crap in the marketing and in the aristocratic sticking my nose in the air so my upper lip gets sunburned about where my stinking kid goes to college it's all it is parents ego a lot of parents ego and it's the ego of the individual going saying i went there but the actual data says 78 of the fortune 500 presidents on the publicly traded big board went to state schools. Eight out of ten. State schools. So there's actually data that says going to a state school has a higher probability of leading a Fortune 500 company than going to a muckety-muck with a name.

2:02:06So the biggest pushback I'm hearing now is it's the people that you get to meet. I've heard that my whole life. I know, but that's the number one reason. And so far, those people have not caused anyone to be successful. We can't find any research that says that. Success comes from grit, perseverance, character, integrity, and knowledge base, not hobnobbing with a bunch of snobs. That is bulk my fraternity brothers caused me to be successful. Horse crap. It didn't happen ever on this century. Ever once. Never. But these people all act like this because they have to rationalize these stupid dollars they paid for this.

2:02:46So Vanderbilt right now is$80 ,000 a year to go to school. University of Tennessee is$12 ,000 a year to go to school. I went to the University of Tennessee, and people that went to Vanderbilt work for me. Now figure that one out. This is the way the life works out here, boys and girls. So in other words, I got enough knowledge base at the wonderful Haslam School of Business at the University of Tennessee. I got enough knowledge base to build a$300 million company. and my character and my grit and God's blessings and the stuff we've all been through to get here. Okay. And to be honest, the education you got was probably a fraction of you actually succeeding.

2:03:30It is the perseverance. It is the hard work. It's the never give up. You know what I mean? It's those things. The education I use, I use accounting every day. I use statistics every day on the air with you people. And I learned that academically there. Yes, yes, yes. So it is an actual education that has value. Yes. But where I went to school, the number of times someone came up to me and goes, here's a million dollars because you went to UT is zero. It's quite the other way around. UT says, could we have a million dollars? That's exactly what it is. I mean, this is, y 'all, this is where we get our problem from.

2:04:03And as parents, you need to speak into this and not participate in all this mythology. Love your children enough to give them a big nope. Nope. Nope. Nope, you're not doing that. If you do that, you're not taking this car that's got my name on it. If you do that, you're not taking a dime of my money. You are on your own. If you're going to go live in the land of stupid, I'm going to wave at you from over here. I love you, and I'll watch you wreck your life, but I will not help you wreck your life, and I will do everything I can to talk you out of it and to stand in your way. My child tells me where they're going to school.

2:04:38My kid didn't tell me nothing with my money. i told them stuff and rachel can attest to that we had discussions and we talked persuasively and i talked to adult to adult until they weren't acting like an adult and then i just told them what we're doing and that that oh that you can't yeah by god you can do that tell your counselor when you're 30 but you're not going to be in student loan debt because your dad's a butthole great that's fine but you're not going to be a student loan therapist because you don't have well i mean that's it you can afford one because you don't have student loan debt There you go.

2:05:10But, you know, this is out of control, you guys. Yes. And again, this is on the borrowing side. If you have$5 million, you want to send your kids somewhere, that's fine. But don't do it on the basis of it's going to cause them to be successful. Oh, totally. Oh, 100%. 100%. That's mythology. Yes, 100%. It's absolute mythology. The reason I'm successful is I went to MIT. Said no one ever. Really? Seriously? Well, possible exception of Trump. But anyway, there you go. That was fun. That was a fun little rant. Good. So we need a day. I got that out of my system. Well, happy Thanksgiving, everyone.

2:05:47Everyone was worried about you. You're in good health, good spirits. You've seen it here. Everything's good. That puts us out of the Ramsey Show and the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.

2:06:08Thank you.