The Price of Freedom Is Discomfort

23:49Dave Ramsey:Well, there's a third answer, and that's divorcing. Which I don't think that we're at that point because I still love him very much. Well, you just told me eight years of misbehavior, and you called a show and talking to strangers, and the first thing happens, you start crying. You're not in a good place. And you said— I realized that most of it is my enabling behavior. I don't think it's enabling behavior. I think it's more that you—he doesn't believe that there's any consequences for continuing to destroy his family. Plus, Sharon, there's no way that this behavior is just siloed to money. No, I'm pretty sure it's addiction.

24:35Yeah. Because at this point, like, finally, I'm calling it what it is. It's addiction. Now, let's talk about what you said before, because you said the advice you're getting is on both ends of the spectrum. I do think in instances where there's some sort of addiction, whether it's gambling, pornography, whatever it is, there does need to be a separation of finance. I'm not saying it has to be done secretly. As a matter of fact, I'm saying it's not done secretly. But there does need to be a hard cut where you're keeping the money safe for you and the family. You're the one that's having primary control over it because he's not well.

25:12Until healing occurs. He's not well and he's not able to participate today.

25:15Dave Ramsey:If that's what's really going on, I don't know if I'm going to call it that or not. I think this guy's just a child. Well, I've been very patient the whole eight years that we've been going through this. Oh, you've been way too. I mean, I'm eight months and I'm having a problem. But do you know, can you see the purchases or is it he has credit cards somewhere that you don't know of? What does it look like? No, I see everything. I am part of all the accounts. It's very recently I started squirreling away. Anytime he spends money, then I'll take that exact amount and put it into savings. So then that because his habit is that if he sees the money, he spends it.

25:55It's automatic. He just he has to burn a hole in it. But what gives you the what gives you the idea that it's an addiction? If you told me, Jade, he's got 40 ,000 worth of credit cards. I can't log in. I can't see it. But my name is attached to it. Right. What makes you think it's addiction? What are you seeing that's giving you that sign? Because we will set aside. Like I said, this is our third time going through the steps. We keep bouncing between one and two over and over. He keeps making promises and we keep together. Right, but tell us what the money looks like. Tell us what you're seeing in the purchases.

26:33How much? What type of an expenditure is it? Give us those details. He's spending at least$4 ,000 a month on just his wants and needs, mostly lifestyle creep, like soda and snacks and gaming purchases and lunch for work and gifts for family members like our two-step kids' birthdays and money for his friends. So what's giving you addiction? What are you seeing spending-wise that you're going, you know, I don't think this is an unknown. Where is it going? that's making you think addiction? I know where it's going because I'm the nerd.

27:12Dave Ramsey:I think she's saying spending addiction, not side addiction. Got you. Yeah, specifically spending addiction. This is not spending addiction. This is a guy who cares only about himself. This is not spending addiction. This is extreme selfishness and extreme immaturity. How long have you been married? He's a butt. Ten years. 10 years so eight of the 10 years yeah yeah that's what's going on and so you know you guys need a good marriage counselor that will help you form some adult boundaries that both of you agree that both of you agree to stick to or that this marriage ends but and that's the thing sharon if it takes two to make it happen so if you're saying it's been eight years he won't go to counseling he won't do this he won't do that you need to go and the counselor needs to form the words and the sentences for you that turn into what we call an ultimatum that says, okay, either we're going to be working on this together and we're going to solve this as two adults, or we're going to solve it separately.

28:15Dave Ramsey:Now, you need to decide, are you going to come to counseling and are you going to solve this problem because I'm simply not going to live like this? And that has never been said, apparently. I don't think so. And it's time for it to be said. I don't want you to divorce, but also don't want you to live in another 10 years like this. You're a basket case, girl. I mean, you're all you're all to pieces. And it's not fair to live like this. I wouldn't live like this. I've cried like that, but not days on end. I get up and change something that's causing that, you know, we're just not going to be this way anymore.

28:53Dave Ramsey:And so, you know, we get those calls. I feel like we get a lot of these calls and, you know, it's no indictment on men, but it just happens to a lot of times be women calling. And I feel like they're willing to put up with more of this behavior. Until they're not. Well, they're looking ahead and they're going, gosh, if I make this move, what does it mean for me? If I've been a stay at home mom, oh gosh, now I'm going to be a single mom. Now I have to go back into the workforce. What can I do? And it's like they're just spinning out all of these hypotheticals that they don't feel ready for. And because of that, they'll stay in a situation with a dude like this who's eight years of just terrible behavior.

29:31And it just, I mean, my heart breaks for that because it's sad.

29:36Dave Ramsey:But the way you fix it is, is that you go, okay, I'm going to restart my career. I'm going to contact a divorce attorney. I'm going to find out what the rules are in California about child support and alimony. And, you know, there's a new bill he's going to get to pay every month called taking care of these kids. and um you know if if he can't come to the table i'm not going to live like this that's right and you have to decide are you willing to live like this if you're willing to live like this you don't need to call us you can just keep living like that i can't i can't i can't participate in you living like that because i think it's dumb i wouldn't do it um but i i do think there's a chance he could change uh but no one's hit him in the face with a big enough two before yet and I'm the guy that's perfectly willing, you know.

30:24Dave Ramsey:So, you know, you will do this or you don't stay. I mean, it's the same thing like when someone's working here at Ramsey, okay? These are behaviors you can't continue with. We love you, but the behaviors are going to leave where you are. We don't do that here, and if you want to be a we, you can't, you know, you got to do this, and otherwise you can't stay. And that's how life works, y 'all.

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32:42Dave Ramsey:Aidan is in Asheville, North Carolina. Hi, Aidan. How are you? Hey, Dave. Hey, Jade. How are you guys? Better than we deserve. What's up in your world? Excellent. So happy to talk to you guys. A good mentor handed me your book four years ago, and it's really helped my wife and I pay off about$130 ,000 in debt. Way to come. That's awesome. Good for you. We're very, very thankful for what y 'all do. So my question is a bit of a soul searching one. And it's when does it make sense to sell our house and buy a new one from a lifestyle and a financial perspective? I mean, I'd want to know what's causing you to want to do that in the first place.

33:25Is it the kids are getting older? Is it that they're moving out? Like what's driving the decision? Yeah, so we're 29, no kids yet. I bought the house in 2023 before we got married. And we're actually in like the really nice part of town. You know, we're close to schools and conveniences, but I'm more of a country guy. And my wife and I are trying to look at houses a little bit further out of town. And because we only bought the house so recently, we're kind of just, I'm a bit of a spreadsheet nerd, and she's kind of a follow-your-heart woman. And we're trying to just wrestle with when do we do this.

34:02Dave Ramsey:Okay. So you bought the house before you were married, and after you were married, you discovered that you bought the wrong house. Yeah. That's what it sounds like. You know, I bought the house. Yeah. I bought the house. This is why we tell people not to. She's like, I would never choose this had I been involved. been involved. Yeah. So anyway, the, um, yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, you're out of debt, you said, right? Except the house or is the house paid off too? Yes, sir. No, sir. We have about 220 ,000 in equity in it. Okay. And what do you owe on it? About 315. Okay. So it's a half million dollar, 550,$600 ,000 house.

34:41Dave Ramsey:And the price of the property that you would attempt to move to would be what? It'd be about hopefully$490 to$500 is kind of the highest we're willing to go. Okay, so you're moving down in price. Correct. And you would take out less of a mortgage than you have now. Correct. Well, that's kind of a no-brainer mathematically. Are you doing this on a 15-year?

35:14We haven't picked out an actual loan yet because we haven't looked at houses. We haven't actually put in offers or listed ours yet. Yeah.

35:23Dave Ramsey:I mean, if you move down in-house and you keep the same size mortgage or less, especially if then you put it on a 15 like we teach and you read that in the book, you already know that, so then that becomes a no-brainer. And it's a house that more suits your needs. Well, that's a no-brainer. but let's say you were living in a half million dollar house when do we make the decision to go to an eight hundred thousand dollar house that's a different discussion right um when you save up the money to pay the difference or when you take out the new mortgage is it on a 15 year fixed where the payment's less than a fourth of your take-home pay would be the maximum move up you would do but you're not talking about moving up you're talking about moving down and so do it i don't see any reason not to do you yeah i mean as long as the payment suits your you know your budget at 25 % after taxes.

36:08Dave Ramsey:And again, I'm going to push you to move it to a 15 year. You need to get in the business of getting the right, follow all the way through on the total money makeover book that you got, which is baby step seven. Let's get the house paid off. You're young, you're smart. You've already paid off 130 ,000 and you're making good money. And you guys are making this decision together. So let's take a, you know, a 15 year fixed. And even if it means we have to cut back on our vacation a little bit or something for the first couple years, I would do that and lean into that. That's exactly how I would do it.

36:39Dave Ramsey:Great call, man. You're doing good. Congratulations. Bob's in Ocala, Florida. Hi, Bob. What's up? Yeah, hi, Dave. Hi, Jay.

36:50I've been following you guys for a while, and I don't believe I've heard this question or anything close to it, actually. I do have some money, and I live in Florida, and you can't drive 100 yards without seeing a lawyer billboard saying, you know, we sued or we got our client$5 million and$3 million. And I'm concerned about preserving the money that I do have. And I'm wondering what, I don't know, insurances and trusts and what is out there that can help me preserve my money from lawsuits. If I get in a fender bender, I'm figuring a lawyer is going to say not how much damage was done, but how big is your bank account?

37:39And I don't know what avenues are out there to protect the money that I do have.

37:45Dave Ramsey:Yeah. You know what$10 ,000, 10 ,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean is a start. OK. Anyway, yeah, go ahead and send me the emails, people. Well, I love reading your griping when I do something like that. It just makes me happy. So anyway, yeah, so what is your net worth? About$2 million. Good for you. Well done, Bob. Well done. Well, the first thing we would tell people to do is have a minimum, and in your case a larger one, a minimum of a$1 million umbrella policy. The typical person can add a million dollars of liability to their homeowners and their auto for around three to four hundred dollars a year for five million, which is what I would get if I were you.

38:34Dave Ramsey:OK, then that's going to cost you thousand fifteen hundred bucks a year. And so if you have a wreck and it's your fault or you get blamed for it being your fault, whatever, and someone wants to sue you in your example, then the first$5 million is going to come out of your insurance company's pocket, which is going to take care of 99.9 % of the greedy lawyers and their customers. Okay? Okay. And so that's the first thing. In my case, I carry an umbrella that's even larger. The second thing you can do is you can move properties and or assets into individual LLCs. And then the thing that happens in the LLCs, the thing that the LLC owns is the only thing that can be sued.

39:24Dave Ramsey:So I'll give you an example. I've got one LLC that's got five houses in it. A tenant the other day had a, not the other day, a few years ago, had a guest over who got drunk off his butt and fell off the porch and broke his arm. And guess whose fault they thought that was? Dave. Someone who was not attending the party. Me. Okay. So they decided to sue the landlord because this drunk bozo friend fell off the porch and broke his arm. Well, number one, it didn't get very far. We beat the snot out of them with a lawyer on our side because they deserve to have the snot beat out of them. But I'm threatened to sue the other lawyer just for malpractice for even taking the thing on.

40:03Dave Ramsey:But had they prevailed and won a five or a ten million dollar judgment against us, the only thing they could have taken would have been the things that that LLC owned, which in this case would be five houses. So it'd be a lot for one drunk bozo. But still, they wouldn't get all the rest of the real estate I own or anything else I own. They wouldn't have come over and tried to take Ramsey. They wouldn't have done anything like that because they couldn't because Ramsey doesn't own it. You know, the other LLCs don't own it. The only thing that owns that property and all the business is done in that LLC.

40:37Dave Ramsey:So you can put your personal residence in something like that or you can put it in a trust. You can put your investments in that. And at this point, Bob, we've kind of seen it all in our place. And so I don't own anything anymore. There's not a single thing in my personal name. Even my cars are in LLCs, which is the most stupid thing in the world. But they are just because of what you're talking about. Because if I bump into somebody, they're going like, are you OK? Yeah, I'm fine. What's your name? Dave Ramsey. Oh, God. You know, it's like, right. So that's what's coming. So I think I just died and came back to life.

41:18Dave Ramsey:Yeah, but that's what you're worried about, Bob. And that's a real thing out there because we live in a litigious culture. How do you decide where to cap the LLC? Well, where we have a piece of property that's a large piece of property, it's a singular LLC for the property. The old office building, the old Financial Peace Plaza is worth about$13 million. That's its own LLC, okay, and so on. On houses, we just decided randomly five of them. Yeah. Okay. Because it gets up to, you know, it gets$3 to$5 million in there. That's good. And then they don't get$100 million worth of other stuff, right? Yeah.

41:54Dave Ramsey:But the problem is now I've got all these LLCs, so my tax return looks like a phone book. I'm sure it does. But that's part of the risk. And none of it's for tax purposes, by the way. It's all for risk management. So trusts and LLCs dividing up properties, making the targets smaller by the greedy lawyers and their dysfunctional clients. And then on the other side, big umbrella policies. And those are the two things people do primarily, Bob.

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43:53Dave Ramsey:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. Stephanie is with us in Phoenix, Arizona. Hi, Stephanie. How are you? Hi, guys. How are you doing? Thanks for taking my call. Sure. What's up? So I'm a recent newlywed. My husband and I got married in May. Currently, we're debt free except for the house. And I'm calling because we want to grow our family and have a baby, but we're trying to figure out how to afford it. My husband's income isn't enough to support us financially. So my main question is, how can we prepare to be a single income household when we currently need two incomes to survive.

44:32Dave Ramsey:Well, there's no magic wand, kiddo. I know. You're working or he's making more money, right? Yeah. So which is it? Or it might be in where you live. It might be in your rent or mortgage. What does he make now? So my husband currently makes$38 ,000 a year. What's he do? He switched careers last year. He's a mail carrier for the USPS. Okay, and what do you make? I make about$3 ,600 a month, and I work as a server at a restaurant. Okay. So when you guys were dating and talking about marriage and getting engaged and having babies and all that kind of stuff, you probably talked about this. Yeah, we did talk about it.

45:17And he used to make about$75 ,000 a year working as a bartender, but we didn't have any benefits. So he switched jobs so we could get health insurance. And I still wonder if that was even the right decision in the first place. No, not mathematically.

45:30Dave Ramsey:$40 ,000 worth of benefits? I don't think so. Yeah. How are you guys living? Are you renters? Do you own a place? What's it look like? We own our house. We owe$364 ,000 on it. And the mortgage itself is$2 ,200 a month. Yeah. So, I mean, 100 % is an income problem. And the question is, is there something that you can do part time to close those gaps? And if not, if there's nothing that you can do even part time to close those gaps, then he's going to have to look in a different career field. Because did he set out my next? How old is he? 38. We're kind of at that stage where we need to have a baby soon or we're not going to have one.

46:16Dave Ramsey:That's not the point. I mean, it is the point. That's why you called. But the thing is this, if this was not the way the question was framed and a 38-year-old guy called me and he said, I make$38 ,000 a year and my wife wants to stay on with the baby, I would have said pretty simply, you need a different career path. And this is your wake-up call. You probably needed one anyway, honey. He did, right? Calling him honey. Yeah. So, you know, he probably needed to be thinking about that anyway, going, okay, I don't want to be an 84-year-old one of these, right? I don't want to be a 64-year-old one of these.

46:54Dave Ramsey:I want to be a 64-year-old that makes$140 ,000 a year. And so I've got to be thinking about what I want to be in the next chapter of my life and what does that thing I want to be require of me that I don't have now? Do I need to get a certification? Do I need to get a degree? Do I need to get an apprentice program or a mentorship program? But the average household income in America today is about$80 ,000. That includes some single earners and some dual earners. Okay. You guys are just below that. Yeah. As a dual household, if we go to him as a single household, then you would be by far in the category of lower income.

47:40Dave Ramsey:and a lower income doesn't live in a$300 ,000 house. Right. So all that to say, you know, I'm going to sit down with both of you and say what career adjustments can you make that over the next 10 years makes this doable? We don't want to wait 10 years to have kids, but we've got to have a light at the end of the tunnel, and you're not going to get 100 % raises as a mail carrier. Right. Right. So you just simply can't do the life you're doing on his income mathematically. And so, you know, I'm going to figure out what I want to be in the next chapter of my life. And it's not this. Yeah. I mean, I hear three goals that you want.

48:25You want a baby, you need more income and you want to be a stay at home mom. And so you've got to decide which is the highest priority and something's going to be a trade off. If you want to do this before, like you said, you don't have a lot of time, then you might have to consider having a baby and not staying home for a while. Like you might have to give and take in order to get what you want.

48:43Dave Ramsey:His career track change might take a three-year curve. Exactly. And you may want to have a baby during that time. And so you keep working. Yeah. People do it all the time. And it's a sacrifice, but sometimes it's like that. People do it all the time. And so, but there's no, have your cake and eat it too mathematically. You've got to mathematically, you have to face the math. Math will not bend to your passions, wills, desires. It will cause you to change how you're doing those things so that the math changes. Yeah. And we can give her find the work you're wired to do. She can pass it on to her husband and hopefully that'll get the juices flowing on a new career path.

49:22Dave Ramsey:Yep. That's what needs to happen. Yeah. So that was a fine career path. There's nothing wrong with it until you add these other goals. Yeah, that's true. And then it exposes the fact that it's kind of stuck. Mike's in Bismarck, North Dakota. Hey, Mike, what's up? Hey, Dave and Jade. Super, super excited to be on the call with you guys. Thank you. So I have a quick financial question right before I get to it. I just want to say the impact that you guys have on people goes far beyond finances. The beginning of this year, I made a goal to run a marathon or a half marathon. And every day I went out training, I listened to your guys' show.

49:59the day of the race, I ran and finished your guys' show. Wow, thank you. Good for you. It's what you guys do, it's pushing people to be better in all aspects of life. It doesn't come easy. Thank you, good for you. Thank you guys. So my question is, I have three retirement accounts, one from my current employer, one from a past employer, and then my personal Roth IRA. And it's the one from my past employer that I'm wondering if I need to move it over into my personal retirement account. And here's why. So I used to be a high school teacher in the state, and so I have a state-funded retirement account that currently has$32 ,900 in it.

50:44Dave Ramsey:Yes, I would get online and get a SmartVestor Pro and sit down with them and do a direct transfer rollover from that account into an IRA. Immediately? Immediately. No question. Okay. Because the options, there's 8 ,000 mutual funds to choose from when you do that. You have limited options at your old workplace. And probably a state-funded retirement account, it probably sucks. Most of them do. Right. And that was the two reasons why I haven't done it is because, yes, the return is basically 5 % to 6 % at best. At worst, 0%. Yeah, that's horrible. And it was kind of that security blanket of like, well, if everything goes A-wire, I'm not going to see that number go down.

51:30But again, it's not ever going to climb up. And then the other side of it is if I would happen to go back and teach for one more year without touching anything in that account, then I'll qualify for a pension. And so that was the other side.

51:43Dave Ramsey:I'm not going to – listen, here's the thing. In 23, the market went up 26%. In 24, it went up 25%. In 25, it went up 18%. In 26, it's up 14 % so far. If you had started in 23, the$32 ,000 would be$64 ,000. And then you wouldn't care about a stupid pension because your money's growing. So you need to get your money growing, man. I would move it. And it won't be the exact same account. You can put it in the same mutual fund, but they're separate account numbers. but it's called a direct transfer rollover. Anytime you leave, people take your 401k and roll it. Take your retirement and roll it anytime you leave.

52:24Dave Ramsey:You can always upgrade.

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53:59Dave Ramsey:John is with us in New York City. Hey, John, how are you? Hi, Dave. I'm not doing better than what I deserve, to be honest with you guys. Me and my wife, right after COVID, we bought our apartment, and things were great, and life was good. After a few years, we felt like the condo was too small. The two of us were not enough as a family, So we had our daughter and we moved in a bigger house. Things were fine. I did not really feel like the 30 years mortgage was that bad. And we kept living our life very humble. So a little no time, my job changed. I started making more money. My income increased, received a promotion, another promotion.

54:40I worked more, more and more. And, you know, I shared those promotion with my wife, but she doesn't really know how much money I really make. So I quietly started to use the extra income to change our future. I paid off my car, her car. I made some improvements in the house. Open IRA, Roth IRA. I opened a 401k with her employer. At one point, I even increased her weekly contribution to 75%. So, you know, I started attacking the house, the mortgage. I want to get rid of the mortgage of our primary residence. And a little over two years, I paid down an amount of money that honestly surprises me.

55:18and we've gone from 30 years of chains almost to the finish line. And if everything goes according to the plan, I could potentially pay off our home by next Christmas. And that brings to me the question I want to ask you today. Should I tell her now or should I just wait and do things the way I've been doing them and eventually give to my family the best Christmas they could possibly imagine by just saying, guys, we are rich. We made it. And so this is my question for you guys. What should I do? I just think that you have a good intent. You know, I think you have a good heart. I could tell it by at the end, you wanting it to be a surprise for your family.

56:02But the question I have is, why didn't you want your wife to be a part of it all along?

56:07Dave Ramsey:Is that a cultural thing? Are you Indian? No, no, no. It's not a cultural thing. I would say that this is more of a race that I'm running, you know, with myself, with with step one and two intensity, with gazelle intensity. Part of me wants to tell her everything. I want to share the excitement because this is our life, our family. And this is not a goal that I was rich. I was able to reach together. But at the same time, I think that maybe she doesn't need to carry the weight of the race that I decide to run. She she's happy. She she sacrifices without knowing. She doesn't see the money that are in our account.

56:46Dave Ramsey:The widows that I have dealt with when their husband did this and thought he was giving her a gift but left her ill-equipped to handle the real world when he died because she's never actually faced the real world because she was so cared for. The old-fashioned term would be a kept woman.

57:10Dave Ramsey:and while I'm with Jade, it's a good intent, but you've robbed her of the adult part of this instead of the child process. It's like you're giving your daughter a gift instead of having a full-grown woman walking beside you and enjoying carrying the weight and being your partner and those kinds of things. That's been taken from her. um and so uh and she might be okay with it i mean john i remember like when we went broke um my wife before we went broke my wife used to say things like whatever you want to do honey and she meant it she didn't want to fool with it and just go do whatever you want to do well i drove the dadgum car off a cliff in your case you did the other way you've been very smart very wise and have gotten raises and have ever gotten you know you've prospered uh but whatever you want to do, honey, leaves the other partner without the emotional muscle to carry on if something happens to you.

58:12Yeah. You're not a bad guy. No, you're a wonderful guy. I don't sense that at all. You're a wonderful guy. I think you guys leaned into what you were most comfortable with, not necessarily what was best for each of you going forward in a partnership. You're more bent towards being a nerd. She's more bent towards whatever you want, honey. but sometimes we have to press ourselves to be what's better for the partnership.

58:35Dave Ramsey:Yeah, that's a good point. So what would I do in this situation? If you've got everything paid off by Christmas, the difference we're sitting in August right now, the difference in August and December doesn't matter in this discussion. So if you want to unveil and have the big Christmas surprise, that's fine. There's worse things that can happen. But after Christmas in January, each month, I want her to spend 15, 20 minutes with you looking over where the money's going and being a grown up and making the decisions with her husband and being aware of what things cost, what it takes to live and so on.

59:17Dave Ramsey:And again, so that in a worst case scenario where she's left without you because of the proverbial milk truck, right? Right. Poor milk guys. They get blamed for everything. But the number of deaths by milk truck, hypothetically, are a lot versus the ones that actually occur is almost none. But anyway, yeah, you get hit by the milk truck and she's left there. She doesn't have any – she doesn't understand reality. That's right. And we get those calls. Oh, we get them. And they feel very helpless. There's no muscle tone in the math and in the – and they're like – they say things like, But I really, I want to, no, you really can't.

59:59Dave Ramsey:You don't have any money. Or you've got enough money and calm down. Yeah. And I just want to say, because I know there's a lot of couples who operate just like this. It's kind of like whoever's bent towards money and being the nerd, they do that. And whoever has no interest in it, whatever you want, honey. That's what we did. Yeah. And I just think it's worth it to know, you know, the way that we teach, it's okay for someone to take the lead in the area. You know, it's OK for someone to be, hey, I'm the one who kind of gets out the budget. I'm the one who says, hey, today the meeting's coming up.

1:00:33But the other spouse has to attend. They have to pay attention. They have to have eyeballs on it. They have to make approvals. Right. You can have a you can play a part in the process without being the main lead. And I think that's the thing, because when you do, at least, you know, how much money you have, where it's going, where it's being invested. You've agreed. Yeah, that's the right amount for groceries. You've agreed, yes, that's the right amount for vacation or what have you. And then each person has a say in it, even if the nerd is the one that, you know, filled in the numbers.

1:01:02Dave Ramsey:Yeah, exactly. And it's just a healthier environment when things come up then. I mean, and usually it's when there's a problem that this is exposed. In his case, everything's gone good. Yeah, good for him. So the system he's using has never been stress tested. Yeah. You know, and when you start stress testing your system, that's when you can tell if something works or not. In my case, we started stress testing whatever you want to do, honey. And we discovered that honey wasn't doing bright stuff. Me. Yeah. And so, like, I went broke because I borrowed too much money, honey. And so, you know, that was what happened.

1:01:41Dave Ramsey:Now, would her objecting to that have kept that from happening? Probably not. We probably would have argued and I would have won the argument. But still, the idea that she had, I remember distinctly walking down the street one night and saying the kids had just gone to bed. It was early, like 8 o 'clock at night, and high stress in our house, and going, well, I don't think we're going to make it. I don't think I'm going to be able to turn this. I think these guys, I've been fighting them for a year and a half, and I think it's going to come unraveled. And she said, well, I had a feeling. And I'm like, yeah, you had a feeling.

1:02:22Dave Ramsey:But she had no knowledge of exactly the tactical, nuanced garbage I was shoveling that I had buried myself under. But I remember having to confess that my plan was causing us to be bankrupt. And then she had an opinion. No, honestly. Or was she still like? To her, she didn't say whatever you want to do, honey, but she didn't say, well, I told you so, because she didn't. You know, can't really do that if you didn't do that. But I mean, she had just been shocked. It was more of a, like, I had adapted to the stress and to the reality that we were going to lose everything. And then she had to swallow all of that at once.

1:03:08Dave Ramsey:Yeah, that's tough. And that's not fair. Yeah. You know, and that's not John's situation. He's on the other end. You know, like she has adapted to not having to be stressed about anything. And now she's going to get a big Christmas present. Yeah. And what a great guy, though. He is a good guy. He had a good heart. Yep.

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1:05:04Dave Ramsey:I'm so excited about AI. Everybody's all worried that it's going to take over the world like robots are going to tell you what to do or something. Oh, bullcrap. So here's the thing about artificial intelligence. Artificial intelligence is artificial. It's not real. That's helpful if you think about it. The other thing about artificial intelligence that you need to know is it can only regurgitate, spit out an answer based on the data set that it's operating from. So unless you feed it garbage or you allow it access to a garbage dump, like Google allows their artificial intelligence to search Reddit, so you're going to get trash out of that because Reddit's full of trash.

1:05:51Dave Ramsey:If you allow it to search TikTok, you're going to get trash. So that's a data set. We decided, our team decided, to take three years of this show with the answers from Jade and Rachel and George and me and Deloney. And every book that we have all written, all the bestseller books, and the over 2 ,000 articles that are on our website on all kinds of different money subjects, and dump them in as the data set. and the tool is called Ask Ramsey. And so if you can't get through here on the air, and it's kind of hard to do, if you can't get through to us to get your question answered, just go to RamseySolutions.com or click the link in the description and use the free Ask Ramsey tool, and it will give you an answer that sounds exactly like you would hear here on the air because it's from what you would hear here on the air.

1:06:47Dave Ramsey:We didn't pollute the data set with a bunch of trash from Reddit or TikTok or some bozo's opinion about something. We don't need anybody else's opinion. We're right. This is what Ramsey says. If you want to know what Ramsey says, ask Ramsey. Janet's in Canada. Hi, Janet. How are you? I'm great, thank you. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? I have a daughter who is a young adult, and she's also neurodivergent. If you're not familiar with that term, It means that, you know, she might be impulsive, lack sort of regulatory. Is she on the spectrum? Is that what you mean? Well, a blend between autism and ADHD.

1:07:37Okay.

1:07:37Dave Ramsey:So if you met her. High functioning. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. She seemed lovely. The implication is when it comes to finances or financial decisions, she doesn't have the same control or she might be impulsive and agree to something. And because she can legally sign leases or agreements, she has gotten herself into some situations where she's disadvantaged. And as a parent, I'm happy to see her being independent. She's moved out of the family home. She has a job. But it's low paying. So I do help a little so that, you know, she can buy solid food so that she can get some therapy. You know, that she can continue to advance in life.

1:08:27Dave Ramsey:How old is she? She is 25. Okay, very cool. What's her attitude about accepting advice from you? Well, accepting advice is limited, and that's part of the DNA of sometimes people that are neurodivergent. Well, she's open to persuasion by others, but not by you. Correct. Correct. impact um you know sometimes social cues sometimes understanding the big picture seeing around corners that's not always the strength and sometimes there's a little bit i get that that's not the strength but what i'm asking for because basically you there's no middle ground with this you either have got to leave her where she is which is what i would love to see uh and that she's standalone she makes her own decisions or she's declared incompetent and then you just have to care for her.

1:09:28Dave Ramsey:And I would not want to go there. You've come too far. You've come too far in the right direction. And so things have turned out at the best that you would hope for, I assume. And so I'm happy for her. But what goes with that, though, is I would ask her that as a part of her independence that it's wise for her to remain humble about asking for help, opinions on things, to keep her as a safeguard, to keep her from getting taken advantage of. And so I'll give you an example in a different setting. It's not exactly the same, but it's the best I can come up with off the fly. When we teach people to start handling money together, One of the things we found is that if a married couple will agree to not make a decision unless it's A, in the budget, or B, anything over$1 ,000, we have to do two things.

1:10:31Dave Ramsey:One is we have to talk about it, and two is we have to wait overnight. and so this is a an act of humility to submit yourself to that system to keep you from being to keep a person that's not got the issues your daughter has but people like me to keep me from overspending it's at sam's club right yes and so i got to check in with my wife it's got to be in the budget and i can't come home with a new bass boat right and so um and um just because of my emotional immaturity in that case, right? But a little different, but it still has the same effect. So I've submitted myself with humility to a system that protects me from my impulsiveness, and that's called growing up.

1:11:19Dave Ramsey:Now, I don't know how that applies in this situation, but if we could get her to do that and say, honey, you do whatever you want, you're independent, But for your own sake, please agree to check with dad or check with me or check with your pastor. I don't care whoever it is. Someone outside the deal before you do a deal of a certain size, and it'll keep you from getting screwed over, honey. Yes, and that's excellent advice. I think the complexity to this situation is she actually has a decent amount of money. And you might say, how did she get a decent amount of money? But she ran her own business at different stages.

1:12:03And it was cash business. And she actually has a decent amount of money, properly invested. But she's entered into life, which is moving out and living on her own. And now, because of the lack of judgment, because of the lack of understanding of financial agreement, she's burning through that money.

1:12:32Dave Ramsey:Yeah, yeah. And I would sit down with her and scare her about that. Honey, this is not working. Is she able to follow the advice that Dave is suggesting, or will her impulse take over in a moment? That's an excellent question, and thank you for asking. I think because this is a high-functioning individual, it's almost like they're rebelling like a teenager would because maybe they're a little bit delayed. That makes sense. So having a parental voice or having the scaring, there's a high desire to be independent. And on the one side, I think, yes, let her create her own problem. No, I don't want to do that.

1:13:18Dave Ramsey:That's not the purpose of the call. But here's the thing. It's a little bit like when my teenager would say, Dad, treat me like an adult. And I would say, sure, act like one. And that applies to this situation. You want independence? You want to be left alone? Then act in such a way that you're not going to lose your independence because you lose all your money with bad decisions. And that means the Bible says in the multitude of counsel there is safety. And that applies to all of us. To get counsel, there's safety. and that's just what smart people do regardless of our issues and we've all got something um but yeah i mean she's gonna have to deal with that to maintain her independence or she's gonna lose her independence because she's gonna lose her job she's gonna lose her money she's gonna be handcuffed by these car leases and all these people that ripped her off uh and signed her up for a bunch of stuff because she would not humble herself to the idea that i need other people in my life, which by the way, we all do.

1:14:17Dave Ramsey:That was kind of my point. It's not unique to her. And that's part of being a teenager moving into adulthood too. Dad, I just want to be an adult. Great. Act like one. Adults talk to other people before they make big decisions. And then they get to maintain their independence. They don't lose it.

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1:16:47Dave Ramsey:Today's question of the day is brought to you by Why Refi. If you've fallen behind in your private student loans, you don't need more shame. You need a plan. Why Refi helps borrowers explore refinancing options with a low fixed rate and payments based on what you can afford. Go to whyrefi.com slash Ramsey. might not be available in all states. Okay, today's question comes from Renee in West Virginia. She says, my husband and I disagree about what to do for our daughter. She is an 18-year-old incoming college freshman. We have a 529 for her, and she has scholarships, so college is paid for. She has some money in savings and her checking, and she's not a spender, so she won't need all of that anytime soon.

1:17:32I suggested we help her open a mutual fund account to allow a portion of her funds to grow so that she can use it when she graduates to start her life. He wants to put money in a retirement account because she is so young that a small amount can end up being more. What is the wiser thing to do? I have a couple of thoughts on this. Assuming it's, if it's her money, if it's money that she has, I would just have her put it in an HYSA, a high yield savings account, have it there, let it grow. That's her emergency fund. That's money for her to continue to build on later on. If she wants to, you know, one day have an apartment as she's ready to move out and start life on her own.

1:18:14If it's money that's coming from you all, you know, Dave, I'm the type, if you want to gift kids money, I kind of feel like now is more helpful than later, like them making a retirement account for her. It's like, that's really nice, but I would be more likely to throw it in a brokerage account, have it build up. You guys still have control over it, but when you're ready to gift it, you can. I'd probably go that route. Yeah, I like that.

1:18:40Dave Ramsey:I like that. The thing is, we don't know how much money we're dealing with here. We don't. So in this call and this question. So if it's$5 ,000, it's one discussion. If it's$50 ,000, it's another. It's a different, yeah. Okay. It sounds like it's, I just have a feel that it's north of 20 or something. Okay. And so it's enough that it doesn't need to be sitting and checking. Right. So, so there's a couple of things this can be used for. If it goes into a simple brokerage account, into a mutual fund, some of it, let's say, let's say there's 30 ,000 bucks there and you move 20 of it that way. Okay.

1:19:13Dave Ramsey:That could be the purchase of her first house when she gets out of college and talks about getting married or just purchase her first house when she gets out of college, whichever, right. That could help move that that way um if it's 50 000 um there's another thing oh by the way there's another thing let's we can add some money to this yeah you can pull out of the 529 and you should pull out of the 529 the amount equal to the scholarship with no taxes that's very good that's a good loophole and i would take that money and do her do a roth ira because only 7 000 bucks do a roth ira and then do the rest of it towards a brokerage account for the house.

1:19:53Dave Ramsey:Now we're talking like it's a lot of money. So if it's all 5 ,000 bucks, then we're not doing that. Okay. But, but if there's 20, 30, 40,$50 ,000, including what you're pulling out, like every semester that she doesn't have to pay tuition, you're allowed to pull the equivalent amount of cash out of that tuition out of the 529 to completely tax free. And then I would use that maybe to fund the Roth and use her stuff to fund her future house purchase or something with an HSA, I'm sorry, a high yield savings account, and maybe a little mutual fund in there too. Some of that, some mix of all of that will be there.

1:20:30Dave Ramsey:The big thing here is not actually the money, it's the teaching moment with her. You've done a great job not being a spender, and this gives you the opportunity to think long term. I wouldn't only think retirement long term, that's too far out there, but if I got enough I would throw some that way just because the numbers are real um and then but I would also so I kind of think you all win the argument here yeah that's what it sounds like I would do all of it if you can um and if we add to it that you can pull out of the 529 equal to the scholarship tax-free that helps the equation even more so that that might be the way to do it but I I agree with you the the biggest thing here is it's kind of like when somebody calls says hey my 16 year old has$5 ,000 they've been cutting grass.

1:21:18Dave Ramsey:They want to open a mutual fund. That's okay. Well, we got all this compound interest for the next 492 years. It's going to be a lot of money. Yeah, sort of. It's hard for the teenager to get excited about that. But that's the biggest issue. The only reason you want, the big reason you don't want to open a mutual fund for a 16 year old is for them to learn how mutual funds work and learn that their hard work can be put to work in an investment. I want him to get those emotional, philosophical, mathematical understandings more than I'm worried about what$5 ,000 will turn into when he's 65. Yeah.

1:21:51Dave Ramsey:That's, you know, it will turn into a lot of money because that's a long time to compound, but it's still not, you know, it's not$20 million or something. Right. You know, so it's, but teaching a kid how to invest and how to work hard and how to live on less than he makes and how to have the, uh, the chops and how good it feels to see your mutual fund statement come in and know how to calculate it that's cool a little nerdy but it's a pretty cool pretty cool skill and by the way that's what rich people teach they teach their kids how to handle money and that they talk about money because they have some and it's that's how that's what the talk discussion is around the kitchen table so make that the discussion this is a good question by renee very good question tony's in omaha nebraska hey tony what's up how's it going thanks for taking my call sure how can we help so i was calling about a potential career move um that i don't know if it's a good idea or not right now i have a interesting job where i'm gonna make around 24 bucks an hour and i work for a local um municipal so i i uh i work for the parks department How old are you?

1:23:01I live rent utility free.

1:23:02Dave Ramsey:I'm 35. Okay. You're single? Yep, I'm newly single. I have two kids. Okay. I've got a... So you make$24 an hour and you're 35 and you work for Parks and Rec. Yeah, I make around$58 ,000 a year because I get a lot of overtime. But I also live rent utility free. And after that's all factored in, it's not too bad. But my main thing is the amount of overtime and working weekends. I have to kind of juggle, like, my kids. So the other option that you have is what? The other option I have is another job, which would be Monday through Friday, and I'd make anywhere from$60 ,000 to$66 ,000 a year. I also do have additional income coming in.

1:23:53I play gigs around the area, and I pull in around, like,

1:23:59Dave Ramsey:Why would you not take the job with more money? Is it because of the rent allowance? The rent around here, like when I do the math, it would actually be less money on paper. No, it's not. You're doing the math wrong. So you're making a total of$8 ,000 more a year. You're not making$54 at$24. There's not that many hours on the calendar. so i make uh so i work six days a week and then i work overtime on top of that yeah so what are they paying you triple time and overtime uh it's sometimes on holidays it's double time uh like the highest year i ever made was 60 grand and you're working like 80 hours or 90 hours to do that because dude$24 is$30 ,000 what do you bring home a month I so my paychecks and that's that's before tax and that's that's before my pension I know I know what do you bring home what do you bring after tax home every month so after tax home every month about let's see when I'm not working overtime to about$2 ,400 a month.

1:25:13Which is$30 ,000 a year, oddly enough. But, yeah, that's my pension.

1:25:19Dave Ramsey:And so you're telling me you're making another$25 ,000 in overtime. Bull. No, you're not. Mathematically impossible, dude. You're doing your math wrong. You can't do it. I don't know where I'm screwing up here. I don't either. I don't either. But, I mean, you'd have to be making$60 an hour and working another 40 hours to get there. You're just not doing it. It's not happening. On a month with overtime, what's your paycheck? So my paychecks, I'm biweekly. It could be, depending on the overtime, between like$1 ,600,$1 ,800. I've had$2 ,000 paychecks biweekly. Okay. It's just kind of all, it's just depending on what's going on.

1:26:03Dave Ramsey:I would take the new position, buddy. I don't think you're going to have to work as much if you take the new position as well. I would take the new position. You're going to make more money and work less. And you have to buy your own apartment. Wow. Yeah. Just go rent you an apartment and get your life back. You're starting over after your family falling apart. And you need the margin. You need the time in there. You're working all the time now.

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1:27:55Dave Ramsey:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio. I'm Dave Ramsey, Jade Washaw. Ramsey Personality is my co-host today. Chris is in Seattle. Hey, Chris, what's up in your world? Hi, Dave. It's my call today. I really appreciate it. Sure. How can we help? Well, I have a real estate question. So my wife and family and I, we are moving out of Washington State. We're moving away. and there's a lot of people that are leaving Washington State right now, and because of that, the market is really flooded. Our property would be considered luxury real estate at this point, and all luxury real estate specifically is really dumping in the value right now.

1:28:42Dave Ramsey:So we could fire sale it. Exactly. You are 100 % correct. Wow. And family people are leaving as well. So we basically are at a point where we just built an ADU on the property. I was the general contractor for it. We were able to build that without taking on any debt. And if we have to fire sale this place, we'll be basically breaking even on what we put into it over the last several years. but we could sell it and it would give us enough equity where when we move, we could be debt free or thanks to our low mortgage rate that we have here. And, you know, we didn't take on debt to build the ADU.

1:29:31We could keep this property, use it as a cash flowing rental immediately, and we would still be able to afford our new mortgage payment at our new home. And that's just kind of where we're stuck is we have two good options and we just don't really know which one's the better one to take.

1:29:50Dave Ramsey:I would not invest in real estate in an area that I believed was going in the wrong direction.

1:30:03Dave Ramsey:That's very true. And keeping this is the same as investing. Yes. Yes, it is. Because if you believe it's going in the wrong direction, and you're going to continue to see a flooded market, and values are going to stagnate or drop if that actually occurs. I don't know. I don't know the market, and I don't know what's going on. I'm going on what your observation is. But for the same reason that you're leaving, I would not keep it as a rental.

1:30:37Dave Ramsey:Is that logical? That's very logical. It's also what you'd say. doing your rights. Unpredictable. Now, the other thing is this. The other thing is this. You could, it sounds like you guys are in good shape financially. We are. Okay. Which means you could have patience on selling the property. Patience equals price. Yes, and that's, yes. Yes. One thing that we are considering as well is take it off the market, let it be a rental for about 18 months until we get into the spring of 2028, and then attempt to resell it then. It's no skin off our backs. We'll definitely be able to get renters that are going to cover the mortgage.

1:31:33Dave Ramsey:See if the market heals a little during that time? you feel there's some indication the market will get better in that 18 months not worse

1:31:46Dave Ramsey:no okay i mean i'm not i'm not being i really don't know i mean that's a fair thing to think of if to dave's point there's some indicator that it's going to be better you're not saying hey i'm renting with the idea to be a renter i'm just renting this to buy time until i can sell it for a fair price i feel like those are two different two different things yeah Yeah. And the second makes sense. I guess not to be. It does make sense and not to be too political about it. But there's a key bit of legislation that's that's in contention in the state right now. And that's a millionaire's tax. Yeah. If it gets struck down by the people, which it might, the conditions in Washington state will buoy and they will get better.

1:32:29They won't be as good because the damage has been done. But right now, the potential buyers for a property that we're selling are very limited because they are the type of people that are currently leaving this state.

1:32:43Dave Ramsey:Yeah, because it turns out you can't tax people. They leave. No. Correct. That's a basic tenet. I mean, for some reason, people that want to tax millionaires don't understand that. You can't tax them. They leave. So, I mean, it happens all the time. We've seen it in mass. Anyway, so the answer to your question is, what's the price point on this thing? So that's what I was about to bring up. The price point, this property should sell for a little over a million or right around a million because of its location, the two buildings, all that jazz. In order for us to sell, we would probably have to get it into the high 800s.

1:33:27Dave Ramsey:Sell in what period of time?

1:33:32Dave Ramsey:anytime. That's just kind of the going rate thing. So it's just no longer worth a million. Now it's worth$900. Yes. Because market value is what people will give you for it. It's not what we wish it would bring. Yeah. Or what it used to bring. Yes, sir. It's what people will give you for it. What a willing buyer will give a willing seller when neither is in duress. That's the definition of market value in real estate. All right. So, and 18 months from now, you don't think that price is going to change much unless it went down? No. It'll depend on that piece of legislation, I guess. Yeah. Correct.

1:34:14Yeah.

1:34:18Dave Ramsey:Here, the other thing is this. You are leaving for what has become for you a very emotional reason, and I don't blame you. And for that reason, everything you do with this house is going to piss you off. I'm getting rid of it just because I want to be free. You've said, I'm going to load up the truck and move to Beverly. I'm out of here. Hills, that is. swimming pools and movie stars i'm out of here i'm leaving okay and every time you got to go back over there and something doesn't go just right you're going to be mad again all over again all those emotions are going to bubble up in your stomach and in your throat again and i really like a clean break when it's from something extremely negative and i don't have to continue to deal with it unless there's a serious return on investment for the crap i'm getting ready shovel and there's not here you're not telling me this is gonna be worth a million two in 18 months you're telling me it might be worth 700 yeah and you got to deal with a renter long distance yeah yeah i i think i might agree with that i just didn't see a a good enough chance that things would turn around and even so with the legislation he was talking about it could still be yeah time yeah yeah it's just it's moronic when i mean california did it to themselves too and others have done it.

1:35:46Dave Ramsey:It's moronic when these legislators and in the state of Washington state, the governor is an absolute moron. The when they pass, when they want to pass something and they think they're going to tax the rich, it's logistically impossible in a free country to tax the rich unless you do it to the entire country. And even then, they'll leave and go to Costa Rica. Yeah, just pick up and move and be an expat. You know, I mean, so you just they're going to leave. And so, you know, who left California? All those people that were producing money. Who stayed? Some that were producing money and everybody else.

1:36:25Dave Ramsey:That, I mean, you guys, that's just straight up basic economics, stupidity.

1:36:40Dave Ramsey:Dave Ramsey here. For more than 30 years, I've been talking to folks on the air, and I can tell you that most people are broke, not because they don't make enough money, but because they don't have a plan. You need to give every dollar you earn a job, because when you do that, something changes. You stop guessing. You stop worrying. You stop stressing. Our EveryDollar budgeting app will show you how to find extra cash, pay off debt, and finally start winning with money. But most people won't do it. They'll keep living paycheck to paycheck. Keep hoping things will change without making a change.

1:37:16Dave Ramsey:It's time to say enough is enough. It's time to take control of your money. It's time to start your EveryDollar budget for free today. Go download it in the App Store or Google Play.

1:37:44Dave Ramsey:Annie is with us in Dayton, Ohio. Hi, Annie. How are you? Hi, I'm doing well. Thank you. So I've got a question because I have two children and we've always had very open financial discussions. I think we're fairly reasonable people, modest, but like reasonably financially solid. And I'm thinking of doing something that might not be so reasonable and more emotional. So I lost my husband a number of years ago. So it's just me and the boys. And at 21 and 24, both of my kids have recently purchased a home. And in our part of the world, you can do that fairly reasonably. So they both have mortgages and they don't have any other kind of debt, like college debt or anything like that.

1:38:32And I want to start, I don't believe in spilling children. That's why they've got grandparents, but I would like to give my kids something. And I don't know kind of the best way to do that. I feel like I want to just help them pay their mortgage. Cause when I paid my house off, like the security that gave me felt like something. Good for you. I just, you know, as a parent, that's what you want for your kid.

1:38:58Dave Ramsey:How old are you, Annie? I'm 55 yesterday. Good for you. Happy birthday. And what's your net worth?

1:39:10Like a little under two.

1:39:12Dave Ramsey:Million? Yeah. Good for you. Well done. Why are you hesitating? Like you're ashamed. You didn't do anything wrong. You did everything right. Well, I know, but it's awesome. I don't know. I'm nervous because I'm thinking about trying to retire. That's okay. Again, it comes to security. I got you. How much are you talking about giving the boys? Just like little bits. Like instead of like giving them$1 ,000 for Christmas, like can I just put that on a mortgage? Or we're selling the home that we raised the boys in, and I now have a new house, and I'm close to them, which is very, very good. And I feel like I want to take some of that money because that was the house that their dad was in and that I was in and we raised them.

1:39:54I want to get them a little bit, but not like they're doing OK. They have jobs like they're married. One of them just got married and they bought a house. And then my other son, 21, and he just bought himself a house. He's not married.

1:40:08Dave Ramsey:And you're not remarried. No. OK. All right. Well, you can do what there's nothing wrong. you're not going to suddenly break their character with a$2 ,000 gift. Okay. And just if you give them a, just write them a check and tell them that your request is that they pay it down on their mortgage. Of course,$2 ,000 doesn't move the needle much on the mortgage either. It's not a lot of money. No. No. And I mean, when I die, they're going to get it all anyway. So they're going to get it eventually. So an individual can leave an individual up to, or give an individual up to$19 ,000 a year. With no gift tax.

1:40:49Okay. But I don't know if I can do that and then retire. I said up to. We're not saying you have to.

1:40:55Dave Ramsey:If you want to, up to. And yes, you can. If you did that for 10 years, you'll still have$2 million. If your$2 million is invested well, you could give away$20 ,000 a year and still have lots of money. Okay. But I'm not saying you have to. But I'm saying, you know, that this idea that somehow you're going to even approach with a small gift like that, destroying your nest egg, you're not. Now, you start talking about giving them a couple hundred apiece, we're going to have to sit down and do some math. Yeah, no. And it's just the idea because I thought, well, maybe if I open a brokerage account, like, find me a place.

1:41:35Dave Ramsey:No, no, just let them run their lives. Okay. Tell them what you would do if it were you. Hey, I'm going to give you this. You do what you want to with it. If it was me, I'd put it on the mortgage. Okay. Or if it's me, I'd open up a brokerage account. I can do that. And maybe after I'm retired for a little while, I might feel like I could, because I just want to give them that security. But I feel very insecure about retiring. Like that kind of scares me. So you say well-invested. I do tend to hoard a little bit. So some of it's invested really well. The other part of it, it's just the security thing.

1:42:10Dave Ramsey:Well, I mean, if you've got a million dollars invested in good mutual funds, It's producing$100 ,000 to$150 ,000 a year. Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. All right. And so if you don't spend more than that, you're probably not going to run out of money. No. No. Of your$2 million, if a million is invested in good mutual funds. As an example, I'm just giving you some math, okay? Because, you know, this year, the stock market to date, and we're only in August, is up about 14%. And so that'd be$140 ,000 on a million since January. Okay. All right. And I don't have quite a million because I have several properties.

1:42:53I don't have as much of a market.

1:42:53Dave Ramsey:Well, if the properties are producing 10 % of what they're worth. Yeah. Same thing. Okay. So the point is sometimes if I have people sit down and do math, they quit worrying about their retirement like you. and I'm not trying to do that to get to give them more I'm just wanting you to quit worrying there might be something where you can sit down Annie because it sounds like you you want to give but you're not exactly sure what you want to do and what impact you want it to have there may be something that you save up for for a while and then you're able to do more of a lump sum to go specifically towards whatever it is that you decide versus a thousand dollars here a thousand dollars there.

1:43:36Dave Ramsey:Now, what's the balance on the boys' mortgages? One has like$127 ,000, and the other, I'm not sure that I know exactly what they've got, but they're young. About? Yeah, probably $200 ,000. Okay, so they're both under$200 ,000. Okay. I mean, you could do something like, once you sit down with your SmartVestor Pro and do some calculations about your retirement, and if you see you've got room, you could do something like, I'm going to match whatever extra you pay on your mortgage up to$19 ,000 a year. Okay. And you throw that on the mortgage. And so if they pay down$20 ,000 and you pay down$20 ,000, that's$40 ,000 on$127 ,000.

1:44:20Dave Ramsey:That mortgage is going away in a couple years. Yeah. I like that. When I paid off our house, like it just opened a whole place. That's what I'm trying to get to. Yeah. Yeah, and then you change your family tree, right? Yeah. Because these boys, everything you've said about them is positive about the young men. Oh, they're great kids. Like, they really are. So they're not going to screw this up, paying off their mortgage. They're not going to suddenly go off the ranch, right? Right, of course. No, no, they're good. Yeah, they're smart. We've always kind of walked logically through things. So I would stretch you and say, if you sit down and do the math and you can get calm, that you could give away$40 ,000 a year and not go broke, which, by the way, you can.

1:45:08Dave Ramsey:Then I would probably do something like, I'll match you guys on your debt reduction up until whatever you put extra on the mortgage, I'll match it up to$19 ,000 a year in a calendar year. I can do that without any gift tax. And that's more than you were thinking of. But the math tells me you can do that and not even blink. It's not even going to scratch the surface for you. You're going to be just fine. So assuming you get this stuff well invested and you're looking at these properties, they're actually producing good rents. You're doing a good job managing the property and getting good money out of it.

1:45:42Dave Ramsey:Same thing with your mutual funds. And if you take$2 million, you can do all of that. And by the way, if you did nothing except make 10 % on that$2 million, you're 55. When you're 62, it's$4 million. When you're 69, it's$8 million. If you don't touch it and don't add to it, don't take any out and don't add anything to it, and it makes 10%, that's what it'll do. So that's the thing to kind of keep in your head, and that's what's going through my head when I'm going, 19 grand. She's just getting started. It's not even going to be a thing. Yeah, and we can get their houses paid off early, and then these guys can be millionaires by the time they're 30 because they don't have a mortgage and they have a smart mom that taught them how to live right, live on less than you make.

1:46:29Dave Ramsey:Sounds like she changed her family tree to me. Absolutely. Wow. And hope her boys pay off their houses. There you go. That's it. Hope they're smart enough to do that match. I think it'll work. I think it'll work good. When you do a match like that, you're rewarding the behavior you want to cause to happen. and you're actually causing the mortgage to get paid off when you put enough on it to cause it. $2 ,000 is more symbolic than actual.

1:47:31Dave Ramsey:You have only one more day to get your ticket before Investing Essentials starts. You shouldn't feel uncertain about investing, and you don't have to. At this two-night virtual event, me and George Camel will walk you through my playbook for investing and wealth planning. We'll simplify everything from 401ks and mutual funds to passing on wealth. Join us September 1st and 2nd. Tickets start at$199. Don't wait. Get yours at RamseySolutions.com slash events or by clicking the link in the show notes.

1:48:18Dave Ramsey:Guys, if you like what you hear around here, help us out and share this show. Tell people about it. Click the like button, the save button, the subscribe button, and all of those buttons and do what they do. Let people know we're here if you like what you're hearing. If you hate what you're hearing, well, we're sorry. Good luck next time you stop somewhere. Hope it works out for you. Folks, if you're sick and tired or working so hard but have nothing to show for it, well, that's normal. Normal's broke, and you don't have to live that way. Our EveryDollarBudget app helps you find extra money every month and builds you a personalized plan to beat debt and build wealth.

1:48:53Dave Ramsey:In just 15 minutes, you'll find thousands in hidden margin, and you'll feel like you got a raise. Don't be normal when you can live and give like no one else. Start EveryDollar for free in the App Store or Google Play. Stacey is in Dallas. Hi, Stacey. How are you? Hey, Stacey. Hey, Dave. How are you doing? Thank you so much for taking my call. Sure. What's up? I've been a huge fan, first of all, before I start with a question. I just love watching your show. Thank you. Very quickly, I am worried about paying my kids college education. My daughter just went to college out of state. so I have to pay$400 ,000 for my daughter and that made me think that now I have to pay another$400 ,000 when my son goes to college in the next three years.

1:49:46Dave Ramsey:How much money do you guys have? I have cash, liquid cash,$900 ,000. I have non-liquid 401k, my house, gold, jewelry, all that kind of stuff is about$1.7 million. Um, we make, me and my husband together, we make about$480 ,000 annually. Okay. Would you allow me to argue with you for a minute? Yes, sir. I don't think you ought to spend$400 ,000 on education in your situation. I should not? No. It's too much.

1:50:26Oh. What is she studying? you? She is going to study economics. Where? She went to UC Berkeley this year. Okay, and

1:50:42Dave Ramsey:what does an undergrad economics professor or economics student make when they graduate? I would think about 120, 150 to start out with. No, not even close. you didn't even research it you just made that number up i think so babe okay no one is hiring first year undergrad students for 150 grand out of uc berkeley nobody not with an economics degree no sorry um so you're you know the thing is education The purpose of blessing our children with an education is to give them the tools to become an adult and stand on their own. Okay. And so what I want to do is I want to teach. I want the kids to get an education that allows them to go pursue the career that they want to pursue as long as it is a reasonable career that can have implications in the marketplace.

1:51:47Dave Ramsey:And I don't think somebody with a$3 million net worth ought to spend a million dollars on their kids' education. because the ROI is not there, return on investment. You can get an economics degree from University of Texas in Austin for half of that and be just as marketable as you are at a UC Berkeley.

1:52:10Dave Ramsey:Now, that might not make your little 19-year-old smile, but I'm not real concerned about that. What I want is your 29-year-old to smile because she's a standalone woman on her own. So I would not spend, and I did not. I have three kids that graduated with undergraduate degrees, all three of them. They went to school for four years, graduated in four years. That in and of itself is a statistical anomaly. But they did do that and went to a state school, University of Tennessee, and they're all very successful, all three of them. and are functioning in their degree field, actually, all three of them are.

1:52:53Dave Ramsey:So, and again, we didn't spend the money so that we can say we went to Berkeley. Now, you can if you want. I mean, if you told me you had$20 million and you want to spend a million of it on this, okay. I don't really agree with it, but I might consider that's your choice. But out of$3 million, you should not spend a million dollars on two kids' undergraduate degrees. I just think I wouldn't do that. It's the return on investment for your children is not there. And the purpose of sending them there is not so that they can say they went to a certain school. It's not a prestige move. It's a gathering of education, of knowledge that's usable in the marketplace.

1:53:34Dave Ramsey:That's the purpose of education. It's not a prestige move. It's not a purse. Not that we buy a coach purse. it's will the purse carry the money that's all we care about when it comes to education we don't care if it's a coach purse or not because no one hires you based on where you went to school and if you don't believe me where's your doctor graduate from you don't know do you where'd your where'd your lawyer graduate from oh you don't know do you i know where my general counsel graduated from because we just interviewed him and hired him the other day so i can tell you where one of my lawyers graduated from.

1:54:14Dave Ramsey:I can't tell you where some of the others that do work for us out in the marketplace graduate from. I never even asked them. Wow. I just said, can you lawyer? Can you help me with my pain, doctor? You know, and can you show me a supply-demand curve economist? Yeah. I'm just shook she was going to do this times two. I'm sorry, Stace. I hate to burst your bubble, but you got caught up in one of my speeches. But I hope you guys would – I'm going to ask you and your husband to reconsider this because I think it's a bad investment. Not your child is a bad investment. Not an economics degree is a bad investment.

1:54:53Dave Ramsey:But spending$400 ,000 on one is kind of ridiculous. And you need to rethink that. That's what I would do if I woke up in your shoes. Now, I don't think she's going to tell her daughter no, though. Do you? No, because she's got 900 cash. and she's sitting there looking at it and it's spent in her head and her daughter's dream is to be at Berkeley and so and the problem is you're not going to create probably not going to create a capitalist there you're probably going to create another socialist so and you spent 400k to do that which is kind of an irony if you think about it but yeah oh man you think about where your kid's going to school.

1:55:35Dave Ramsey:Oh, man. Yeah. The chances of coming out of Berkeley, UC Berkeley, anything but liberal and left wing and socialist leaning from an economics perspective is fairly low, fairly low. If you want to study socialism and if you want to study John Maynard Keynes, Keynesian economics and Keynes was a socialist instead of Adam Smith, who was the ultimate capitalist. If you want to and I've studied all these things, obviously, I've got a degree in finance and economics. So, but if you want to study that, that's, you know, you'll get a good dose of it there. So, man. Yeah. Oh, man. I, guys, let me go back aside from her just a second and remind you the movie Borrowed Future, the documentary that we did that's award winning.

1:56:23Dave Ramsey:You can see it for free on YouTube. We've almost got$2 trillion in student loan debt now. Now, Now, she's not taking out student loan debt, so it's not aimed at her, okay? But the biggest cause of student loan debt is the choice of where to go to school. Not whether you go to school and not whether you study, but whether you go to school in-state versus out-of-state. Because if it's$12 ,000 in-state, it's$22 ,000 out-of-state, and it's almost exactly the same school. I mean, University of Tennessee is in-state. If you go to the University of Georgia, it's out-of-state. They're both excellent state colleges.

1:57:00Dave Ramsey:You get a business degree from either one of those. We would hire you here in a heartbeat. But you're going to pay twice if you live in Tennessee just because you went across state line. So don't. Their football team is better than ours usually, but don't go across state line. And you don't pay for a football team either. That's the thing. So don't do it. Don't do it. Think about what you're getting for what you pay. and it's the primary cause of student loan debt. Now, not in Stacey's case. She's got$900 ,000. Way to go, Stacey, by the way. Very nice. Way to go building up some wealth. Yes.

1:57:57Thank you.

1:58:11Dave Ramsey:Hey guys, Dave Ramsey here. Every day on this show we help people work through real money problems and figure out what to do next. Now you can get that same kind of help anytime with Ask Ramsey. Ask your money question and get answers built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision or just want something explained, Ask Ramsey is here to help. It's fast, simple, and free to use. Go to RamseySolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's RamseySolutions.com.

1:59:15Dave Ramsey:Our scripture of the day is Jeremiah 29, 13. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. C.S. Lewis said there's only two kinds of people, those who say to God, thy will be done, and those to whom God says, all right, then have it your way.

1:59:36I want the second one.

1:59:38Dave Ramsey:And watch out when you trip over that second one. Ouch. Bryce is in Philadelphia. Hey, Bryce, what's up? Hey, guys, how you doing? Great, man. How can we help? Great. So I'm a 31-year-old man. I live in Philadelphia. I'm currently an assistant principal at a school, and I also invest in real estate out of state. I currently move back in with my parents just to get my finances together and pay off some debt. I own four rental properties in Ohio. I'm health management. Well, someone helps manage them out there. I'm a public management company. All of this, your parents are in Philadelphia, your job's in Philadelphia.

2:00:16Dave Ramsey:How do you end up owning real estate in Ohio? Well, long story short, I used to live in California and New York City, and it was too expensive. So I just invest in real estate out there. So my portfolio is worth about$545. And how much debt do you have? About$324. So the equity I have is$220. So my question is, I have about$36 ,000 in personal loan debt. I took to fix up properties and stuff like that. I don't have any car debt or student loan debt. So I'm trying to figure out, should I sell my portfolio out of state and just buy a house out here. Yes. Put a decent amount of down payment down.

2:01:01Yes. Yes and yes. Because you're living with your parents right now, right? Exactly. I'm kind of like, I don't need to. Yeah. What caused you to move in with your parents? Well, so what happened was I was buying properties fast out of state. And then, you know, the first big expense came up after we placed the roof.

2:01:21Dave Ramsey:and didn't have the cash to buy it, so to take out a personal loan. So the TikTok course didn't give you the whole picture, huh? No. This didn't work out. Yes to everything you said. It's a cry and shame that you have these properties. They're not producing cash for you. They're causing you to go into debt, and they're causing you to live with your mom and dad. That's a really great indicator that we need to go in a different direction. So I'm glad that you called, and I'm glad that you're even considering going in a different direction, because I would. I would look at these properties. You said there's four of them.

2:01:52I would sell all four.

2:01:53Dave Ramsey:Yes. What will it bring if you sell all four? 200 grand. So if I have 220 equity by the time I sell them, I probably have like 190. And you've got to pay off the$36 ,000 loan. And then you've got to put a down payment on a house. Yeah, that's perfect. And I'd have a lot of cash reserves. My fear, I guess the fear I have, the only thing to hold me back is the properties do generate money. No, they don't. No, you're broke. No, they don't. Right. They couldn't even cover their own expenses. You had to take$36 ,000 out in personal loans, and you had to go live with your mom and dad. Yeah, that's how I feel right now.

2:02:30Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Okay, so let's stop a second, Bryce, because, I mean, Dustin or Bryce, here's the mistake the TikTok get-rich-quick real estate morons don't tell you, okay? Rent minus mortgage does not equal cash flow. So in the real world, where those of us who know how to do real estate investing professionally, what we know is rent minus mortgage minus heating and air minus tenant didn't pay minus lawyer to get rid of tenant that didn't pay minus roof that leaks minus taxes minus insurance equals cash flow. You don't have any real cash flow. You've got what we call gross cash flow. Your rent minus your mortgage is a positive, but by the time we adjust for reality for the other things that are hitting you, you end up not having the money when the repair occurs, and that's how you've ended up where you are.

2:03:30Dave Ramsey:And so don't let the mythology that you were taught stay as a reality in your head. Learn something from this experience, and that is that properties that have a mortgage of more than 50 % of their value never actually cash flow. Residential properties don't cash flow. If your mortgage balance is$250 and that property is worth$500, you're breaking even. If you owe more than 50%, you're losing money in a calendar year. Cash flow. and you're not going to get rich in real estate you're going to go broke in real estate following some moron on tiktok and so that's that's what's going on and so jade's exactly right bryce hey just visualize what your life would be like if you had no mortgages and no tenants and no debt and had purchased your own home with an emergency fund of a college i mean principal of a high school and you're a 36 year old guy you're like and you you know it's a perfect situation so the only good news is you're going to sell these things and make some money on them absolutely and do it today i would call go to ramsey solutions click on ramsey trusted for a real estate agent in that area find one that's high octane get a sign in the yard by day after tomorrow and get these things gone gone.

2:04:56Yeah.

2:04:57Dave Ramsey:Life will be so much better. There's no reason to keep these. And I love real estate, but I hate what real estate done poorly does to people. And that's what these idiots on these social media things, $3 ,000 to buy nothing down real estate, come see me. That's been going on for like 45 years and it's never worked. The guy who wrote nothing down was a guy named Robert Allen. In 1982, I read that book and went and did what he teaches. And Robert Allen went bankrupt doing what he teaches. And Dave Ramsey went bankrupt doing what he teaches. Did he never bounce back? I had never heard from him again.

2:05:42Dave Ramsey:He disappears. He wrote off into the sunset. Two books, Nothing Down and Creating Wealth. And neither one worked. Oh, that's too bad. And, hey, if he's dumb, I'm dumber. I did exactly what he said to do. And that's what happened to Bryce. Bryce fell into somebody like that and thought, oh, I've got to get in the real estate business. I've got to get in the real estate. Real estate is where all the money is. No, it's not. Real estate would cause you to go broke if you do it wrong. It's a horrible investment for broke people. And when broke people buy real estate, it makes them broker. That's why they call them real estate brokers.

2:06:14Whew, man, it's a problem.

2:06:17Dave Ramsey:Oh, Bryce, please, please, go get your life back, honey. All right. Dustin is in Little Rock, Arkansas. Dustin, I've got just a minute. Ask your question fast. Hello. First off, I'm a pretty big fan. I'm kind of new. I've been watching for six or eight months. Thank you. For about seven, a little bit over seven years, I've been a surveyor. I've primarily worked on the road, and I've made, you know, the past few years, roughly$13 ,000 to$15 ,000 a month. My son will be two in December. My daughter is six. And working on the road was just getting to be too much time away. What's your question, Dustin?

2:07:01I took a job local. I was making about a little bit over$3 ,600 a month.

2:07:07Dave Ramsey:Doing surveying? After, yes. That's a big cut. Yeah. I'm doing civil survey now, and I was surveying on the pipeline. Yeah, can you not make more than that doing civil? That sounds low. I'm not sure. I reached out to all the companies that were pretty close to where I live. But you need to find out what a surveyor makes. I think they make more than you're getting paid. That may be the case. I've looked around, and most of the places right here close pay$20 to$25 an hour. Well, that's not right. No, I bet they do. For somebody dragging a chain, but not somebody knows how to actually do a survey.

2:07:52Dave Ramsey:That's not a$25 an hour job. It's a valid profession and it pays more than you're getting paid. So you need to do a little work on your career tracking and make more. I agree with you coming off the road, but we're going to have to make a little more money or you're not going to eat, son. So bad move. Wow. Wow. Surveying? I haven't run into that in a while. You know, that's an ancient art, actually. I don't know that I know all that it entails. I mean, you think about George Washington did survey. You know, interesting. Daniel Boone did survey. That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books.

2:08:31Dave Ramsey:We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.

2:08:49We'll be right back.