Your Financial Progress Starts Now!

10:20Dave Ramsey:Sarah's in Pittsburgh. Hey, Sarah, how are you?

10:23George Kamel:I'm good.

10:24Dave Ramsey:How are you guys? Better than we deserve. How can we help?

10:28George Kamel:So I'm on baby step number two, and my question is, how do I implement it properly if my budget only allows for minimum payments?

10:41Dave Ramsey:something's got to change so your income has to go up or your outgo has to go down we got to sell something that's got debt on it what do you owe on your cars so I made a couple of bad decisions

10:52George Kamel:in the last year 123 ,000 of this bet has just I've just accumulated in the last year on what My vehicle. So I had about, I had a couple of bad decisions that I thought a year ago, I was in a good financial space. And I had a rental property that needed some work. And I took out a$40 ,000 HELOC so that I could do that work on that property. I also bought a new vehicle, well, a new-to-me vehicle, a 2023, and I owe$28 ,000 on that.

11:33Dave Ramsey:Okay. And what's your household income?

11:36George Kamel:So my household income has changed. In the last six months, I lost my dad, I lost my job, and I separated from my husband.

11:46Dave Ramsey:Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry.

11:49George Kamel:So my income is around$75 ,000.

11:54Dave Ramsey:So you lost your job, got a new job. Good. Okay. Yes. And how long have you been married?

12:02George Kamel:15 years.

12:03Dave Ramsey:I'm so sorry. Okay. Are y 'all attempting counseling or is this going to end in divorce?

12:10George Kamel:It is going to end in divorce. Okay. I was going to counseling individually for about five months. I stopped that about four months ago when I got laid off from my job because I just couldn't afford that.

12:29Dave Ramsey:Okay, so the rental property is going to end up on you in the divorce?

12:34George Kamel:It is going to be where I'm living now. I moved into the rental property last month, and my husband kept the house that we were in.

12:45Dave Ramsey:okay all right and have you all started talking about how things split up on all this

12:53George Kamel:um basically i get my car and my bed i get this house and it's payments and he gets his um

13:03Dave Ramsey:so the 123 is all yours correct okay but that's the 40 on the heloc on the house you moved out of

13:13George Kamel:No, the house I moved into.

13:15Dave Ramsey:It has a HELOC on it.

13:17George Kamel:Correct. Okay, what's the first mortgage on it? My mortgage is$155 ,000.

13:22Dave Ramsey:Okay.

13:23George Kamel:And the HELOC is$40 ,000.

13:24Dave Ramsey:So you owe$195 ,000, and the house is worth what?

13:28George Kamel:$275 ,000.

13:29Dave Ramsey:Okay, all right. And you make$75 ,000, and what other debts have we got then? Is the$40 ,000 and the$123 ,000?

13:37George Kamel:Yes.

13:38Dave Ramsey:Okay, so$40 ,000 and$28 ,000 is$68 ,000. What's the rest of the$123 ,000? I have$54 ,000 in consumer credit card debt that I have racked up in the last, well,$20 ,000 of it was prior to this other financial

13:58George Kamel:situation. I spent$15 ,000 on a dream vacation before my family split up, and I was in a financial position then that it wasn't such a big deal. What were you making before?

14:17George Kamel:So to get my husband and I together.

14:19Dave Ramsey:No, what were you making at your other job before you made$75 ,000?

14:25George Kamel:$80 ,000,$85 ,000. So you didn't take much of a pay cut.

14:29Dave Ramsey:What does he make? No, 110. And you have children?

14:34George Kamel:Yes, I have three children.

14:36Dave Ramsey:What ages?

14:37George Kamel:19, 17, and 14.

14:40Dave Ramsey:Oh, my gosh. Okay.

14:44George Kamel:All right, so let's just put a bracket around this on the math part, okay?

14:52Dave Ramsey:There's a lot of emotion and a lot of hurt and a lot of broken hearts, but the math is you make$75 ,000 a year, you have a$28 ,000 car, and you have a house you can't afford and a car you can't afford.

15:06George Kamel:I could afford the house and the car if I didn't have the credit card debt, but I can't get out of the credit card debt.

15:12Dave Ramsey:No, you really can't. The car is stupid, and so was the vacation.

15:19George Kamel:I agree. You've got to start calling stuff what it is, okay? I agree they were stupid. I purchased them before. I know. I knew that this was going to be stupid. But to clean up the mess, right now we have to get rid of the car. But you can't defend it then.

15:29Dave Ramsey:I can afford the car is not something that should ever come out of your mouth. You have a$30 ,000 car, you make$75 ,000 a year. No.

15:38George Kamel:The problem with the car is I owe$28 ,000 on it, and the value is only$27 ,000.

15:44Dave Ramsey:So?

15:44George Kamel:I can't even sell it and get out for money. You can.

15:47Dave Ramsey:You come up with$1 ,000. Yeah, you sell it. Don't pay the credit cards for two months to sell the car and get a$2 ,000 car. Ta-da. We just got rid of it. What is the payment on the stupid thing? $1 ,200?

15:58George Kamel:$6.53.

16:00Dave Ramsey:Oh, God. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's killing you. You told us you didn't have margin. So the thing, because you've been through this tremendous heartbreak, you've given yourself permission to do things you shouldn't have done. Go on a vacation and buy a car and run up credit cards. Okay. So we have to say we have to undo as much of that as we can undo. What do you do for a living?

16:28George Kamel:I have three jobs. My main source of income, I negotiate leases, and I bring in about$42 ,000 at that. My secondary income is real estate, and I bring in about$25 ,000 in that.

16:44Dave Ramsey:Selling real estate? Selling residential real estate?

16:47George Kamel:Yes, sir.

16:48Dave Ramsey:Okay. All right.

16:49George Kamel:How long have you been doing that? Eight years.

16:53Dave Ramsey:Okay. So it's time to get good at it now. You need to go make$150 ,000 selling houses.

17:03George Kamel:I would love to. I just don't know how.

17:05Dave Ramsey:Yeah, your raise is effective when you are. I mean, yeah, you do. You've been around people that make that kind of money selling real estate. You've been doing this eight years. You've seen top performers. What do they do that you don't do? So I specialize in first-time homebuyers and families.

17:19George Kamel:Not anymore. more.

17:20Dave Ramsey:Now you specialize in money. I specialize in selling houses for money. That's what I specialize in now. You're not in a position to be niche. You got to go make money. And I want you to go make$150 ,000,$200 ,000 a year selling a bazillion freaking houses. Instead of selling a house every other month, I want you to sell five a week. You've been doing it part time. So imagine if you went all in on this thing. This is you. You are Miss Real Estate Girl with the glamour shot on her business card, the whole thing. You've got to do something to get your income up.

17:53George Kamel:How do I come up with the extra hours to put into it when I, you know, my other day job is 8 to 4, and then I just picked up a bartending job on Friday and Saturday evening.

18:04Dave Ramsey:I think the bartending went away, and you're going to be in the real estate business. Okay. And, you know, I'm going to get away from that other day job as fast as I can because you can't pay squat$40 ,000 a year. Boo, boo, boo. So we got to get your income up. We got to think differently about these decisions that got us here so that we don't even ever say out loud again that there was a good reason for these things. They just were happening during a broken heart time, and I made bad decisions. And you said that early on, and then you went back and said, yeah, but I need the car, and the car's bull crap.

18:40Dave Ramsey:The car's awful. Get rid of it. It represents a bunch of things about you that you don't like. I want rid of it. I want it out of my driveway. I don't want to look at this thing anymore. I want to get rid of it. And I'm going to get in gear and start selling houses like a crazy person. And that's a good news because you actually have been around the business enough, you know. Go get a hold of two or three of the top performers and say, teach me what you do. Let me join your team and help you do what you do. I've got to make more money, and I'm getting ready to put it in gear like I've never put it in gear in my entire life.

19:09Dave Ramsey:This is a fresh start for old Sarah. and it's a clean whiteboard. Brand new year. Grace. Mercy. Time to start over. And then you chop up the credit cards. So first thing you do is you pay food. The second thing you do is you pay lights and water. Third thing you do is you pay the two house payments. Fourth thing you do is you pay the stupid car payment until you get rid of the stupid car. And until you do that, you don't pay anybody anything. So the credit cards are way down the list. They don't get paid nothing right now. Nothing. My credit. You don't need credit. You're broke. I loveально

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22:08George Kamel:Today's question comes from Alyssa in Vermont. I'm in my late 20s and trying to be more organized regarding my finances. Do you think using AI for things like tracking spending and setting budgets is a smart and practical approach, or should people stick to more traditional methods? Interesting. I have seen some videos online of people using AI to try to help them kind of get control of their money. But it really does a terrible job when it comes to actually tracking your actual spending because it can't pull in your transactions. It doesn't know your life.

22:41Dave Ramsey:Here's the thing. AI is only as effective as the data set that you feed it. And so if it doesn't have the data, it can't crunch it. And so you have to build the budget anyway for it to know what to do or it's clueless. It doesn't know your actual expenses. It can't read your mind. Or what your goals are. It's not a spiritual thing. It's just you feed it a data set and it crunches it. That's all it is. And so, like, we built Ask Ramsey, okay? You go to our website at RamseySolutions.com and you can ask Ramsey any question you wanted to ask on this show but you couldn't get through on the show, okay?

23:16Dave Ramsey:So what is the AI? And it's an AI tool. We built it. No one else has touched it but Ramsey. What's in the data set? Five years of the calls from this show and the answers we gave are dumped into the data set. All the Financial Peace University videos are dumped in the data set. All the books that the personalities and I have written are dumped in the data set. And so it's a pure data set. So it's going to give you an actual Ramsey answer to a money question. It's not going to give you an answer of anything else. Hadn't got anything to do with Reddit. Hadn't got anything to do with a bunch of crap on the Internet.

23:53Dave Ramsey:There's no trash in the data set. And that's the problem, Alyssa, with trying to do what you're doing. Because personal finance, the key to fixing personal finance is understanding that personal finance is 80 % behavior, 20 % head knowledge. AI can help you with the head knowledge, but you still got to deal with the person in your mirror. And when you actually take the EveryDollar budgeting app and lay out and put your budget together, your brain is affecting that and you're making a commitment to you that this is how much I'm going to spend on groceries. This is how much I'm going to spend on eating out, which is not at all I'm getting out of debt.

24:30Dave Ramsey:This is how much I'm going to do whatever with. And you've made a commitment to you. That's right. And so you've began, just by the very act of you putting the number into the EveryDollar app, you have began to modify your own behavior. AI can't do that for you. Now, once you've got all the data in there, and let's say you've been in EveryDollar for two years, are we going to have some AI in the background helping you manipulate your data? Yes. Not yet, but we will have by the time you get there. Yeah. And so, because that's a good use of AI. Because we actually know your goals, we can help steer you.

25:07Dave Ramsey:It doesn't read your mind. It's going to be a little more agnostic. Yeah, I don't want, you don't want a budgeting tool of any kind that auto-populates the numbers in the sense of it just makes up a number and drops it in there. Because you need to look at it and say, for me, Alyssa, in Vermont, this is what I need to spend on rent. It doesn't need to auto-populate your rent. And when you actually type it into EveryDollar, you need to go, holy crap, my rent's really high. or holy crap, I got a really good deal renting this garage apartment out back from this old lady's house. You know, I got a deal.

25:44Dave Ramsey:And your brain is starting to verify your numbers and your behaviors at that point.

25:50George Kamel:It's not going to help you spend less on DoorDash.

25:53Dave Ramsey:After you've gotten control and have run a budget for many years and AI could access that data, it could be really helpful. But when you're starting, I'm more concerned that you learn to control you than you do math right. Yeah, you know your spending habits. You know what's going on. So I would start with every dollar for sure. Yeah, and if you're working the baby steps, it's going to prompt you, again, like the Ask Ramsey thing, it's going to prompt you what we would tell you to do. So if you wonder what George Campbell would say to do, every dollar is going to be telling you right then. When you put that down, it's going to go, hey, by the way, it looks like you're missing this.

26:28Dave Ramsey:Or you're spending a lot over here. What if you cut that back to save this much? It looks like you're getting a tax refund. You want to adjust that W-2. You know, it looks like you're doing this, and you may not want to do that. It looks like you got the, you know. And we're going to give you some Ramsey input as you're building your budget out. So it's not agnostic. It's got Ramsey flavor. It's not quite as sassy as I want it to be. I want it to be SmartElec. We'll dial it up. But Digital SmartElec's hard to get going. But if I ever figure out how to do it, I'm going to make a lot of money because Digital SmartElec's cool.

26:55George Kamel:People have been asking for the Dave function on AskRamsey where it just spits out the Dave response. It's just like, stop doing stupid stuff. Don't do stupid stuff button. It starts with, that's a stupid question, but here's the answer. That would be fun. I would like that.

27:09Dave Ramsey:Dave, how do I build my credit? None of that's there. None of that's there. And they're not going to actually do it, even though in my dreams I think it's funny. But, yeah. So check out Every Dollar for free. Download it in the App Store. And always keep in mind that when you are doing anything that doesn't prompt your brain to make a measurement on your budgeting stuff, you're probably off track. Because you need to be making measurements as you go along. and when you're spending money in marketing we call that friction if if when you spend money you feel it that's your brain telling you i just spent money but if you just like apple pay and i have no idea what'd you pay for that i don't know it's on apple pay i didn't even look it's apple pay i just waved my phone and crap jumped in my basket you know and it's like that drives me crazy no friction at all right but you know submit you know prime prime prime prime prime prime now it's on auto 13 cases of toilet paper on the front porch.

28:02Dave Ramsey:You forgot you had a subscription to it, and it just shows up. Oh, yeah. You subscribe to your stupidity. Yeah, that's it. A regular diet of it. But, yeah, that's the thing. You want stuff that tells you when you're off. Here's an example of that, okay, while we've gone on this. It's a good subject. When you actually spend green cash with president's faces on them, There have been studies done that shows that it activates the pain centers of the brain. So like you get ready to buy groceries and you slide two Uncle Benjamins across to the cashier, your brain goes, ouch. When you waive Apple Pay, your brain doesn't know anything happened.

28:45It doesn't feel it because there's no recognition.

28:49Dave Ramsey:But there's something about our brains going, I just freaking spent money. When you use a debit card and you know it's coming out of your checking account right then versus a credit card that someday I'll pay. I hope I pay it this month, but I might someday pay it. Right? Bullcrap. There's a difference between the debit card and the credit card. They look just alike visually, but your brain is going, you just spent money. It's using your money now. You better have some money in that account when you're using your debit card. When you're using a credit card, you're like, oh, I'll deal with this later.

29:20Dave Ramsey:You know, maybe. Problem for future me to deal with. Yeah. Using someone else's money. Sucks to be future me, but yeah. But even the debit card doesn't activate the pain centers like cash does. Yeah. If you want to start spending less money, start spending more cash. Go to the ATM. You'll limit your spending because you go, crap, those groceries were expensive.

29:44George Kamel:Well, now it's on trend. You did the cash envelope system 30 years ago, and now the Gen Zers are calling it cash stuffing. They make videos of them stuffing the envelopes with the exact amount of cash, which it's a great trend. I'm glad it's coming back, but they're acting like they invented it.

29:58Dave Ramsey:I didn't invent it either. The first time it came up is the 1930s. Wow. Because you got paid on Friday in cash in an envelope. And you walked out with your paycheck and you broke it up, put a little in a grocery envelope, a little bit in the rent envelope, a little bit in this. And people have sent me ledgers that their grandmother and their great-grandmother kept with the envelopes in the back of them from the 1920s and 30s. And they used to – everything was 100 percent cash. I mean the number of people that wrote checks – You had to budget. If you wrote a check in the 1930s, you were rich. Rich people – I mean nobody but rich people wrote checks.

30:32George Kamel:Only the elite had access to checks.

30:33Dave Ramsey:There certainly was no credit cards because there were no credit cards until the late 1950s up into the 60s. And in the 70s is when the credit card actually took off. So, you know, you go back. So, yeah, the Gen Zers didn't invent it, but I didn't either. We actually sell an envelope system in the store. We still got it. Rachel's wallet has a built-in envelope system.

30:52George Kamel:That's a fancier version. It looks better for the latest.

30:54Dave Ramsey:That's what rich people do, the Rachel envelope. Future rich people. It's a good history lesson, Dave. Thanks for walking us down there. Yeah, well, it's good. It's good to remember that you're managing behavior. You're not managing numbers.

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32:55Dave Ramsey:Chelsea is in Lubbock, Texas. Hi, Chelsea. How are you?

32:58George Kamel:Hi, I'm great. How are you?

33:00Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

33:02George Kamel:Good. I was just calling because I'm looking for some advice on how I can get my husband to be a little bit more comfortable, how I could encourage him to be more comfortable spending money. He tends to put a big value behind everything that we spend on, as if it's wasteful and that sort of thing. He's cheap. He's very cheap.

33:26Dave Ramsey:Yeah, my wife is too.

33:28George Kamel:For example, I wanted a Five Guys burger for dinner. one night and he, you know, joyfully went out and got it for me. And he comes back with a bag from there and a bag from Burger King. And I asked him who got Burger King. You know, we have two young kids. So I thought that maybe. And he said, no, the burger at Five Guys is$18. So he got me a burger there and got himself Burger King. You know, we never, we're not big Burger King people. He doesn't like Burger King. It's just cheaper. And so he chose. He likes the price, not the taste yes got it yes that's hilarious but at least he got you five guys he burned 18 dollars worth of gas driving across town to burger king yes yeah um i we have a six month old and i preheated the oven to start dinner and i went in to feed the baby and put him down and i come out to the oven being turned off um and and he just he thought i i it was just wasteful to leave the oven on and i was like well it was preheating and he's like well the electric bill will go up if we just leave the oven on.

34:28Dave Ramsey:That's called preheating doofus. Yeah. Okay. Wow. It sounds like he must have had a

34:33George Kamel:childhood where dad and mom were like, Hey, it's tight. We got to save money anywhere we can. Yeah. When was he wounded? He did have, um, some experiences as a kid, you know, it was like brand new dirt bikes one day and then, um, you know, Hawaii vacation. And then suddenly they can't afford the vacation they're on and they'd have to go to the grocery store and now they're, buying food. They can't afford to be there. We learned from mistakes that his dad had made. How old is your husband? He's 30.

35:03Dave Ramsey:And you guys have been married 10 years?

35:06George Kamel:Yep, this year. Okay. Yeah. And so we...

35:12Dave Ramsey:Well, I think it starts with saying, okay, being frugal and wise with money is the hallmark of wealthy people. Wealthy people are careful with their money. But the Burger King and the preheating the oven is just weird. That's not careful. That's just strange. Okay. So we start with a conversation with you have a natural tendency that's going to cause our family to be very successful. And that is you're going to watch and be careful with money. The downside is, is that you're never going to be able to enjoy it. and you're never going to have the ultimate joy of it, which the most fun you'll ever have with money is when you give it away.

35:56Dave Ramsey:Generosity. Generosity. When you put a set of tires on a single mom's car and she's working three jobs and it costs you$1 ,000, that's the most fun you'll ever have in your life. When you leave a$300 tip at Thanksgiving for the pregnant Waffle House waitress, That's the most fun you'll ever have with money in your life. And you can't do that in the mindset that he's in. He can't do that. His brain won't let him do that.

36:22George Kamel:Well, and so he actually is a very generous giver. No, he's not. He just comes to our family. No, he's not.

36:28Dave Ramsey:No, he's not. Because he can't even give to himself. He can't even leave the oven on. That's true. Okay? So, no, he's not. I mean, I'm not saying he's a bad guy. I think he's a great guy. I think he just has, if I were coaching him, if he were to call me, I would just say, you need to have some fun. And you need to have some fun. Because this guy is never going to be irresponsible. It's impossible. He's never going to impulse a Porsche.

36:56George Kamel:No.

36:58Dave Ramsey:His brain would explode. He just can't do it. He couldn't do it. And I don't want him to. So if I get this guy feeling like he's gone wild, now he's just normal.

37:08George Kamel:Yeah.

37:10Dave Ramsey:Now he's just a regular human now. Because, I mean, he's just wired up about this. So I want him to enjoy money. There's three things you can do with money. You can invest it for the future, being careful and frugal. You can enjoy it, and you can give it to others. That's the only three things you can do with it. And you should be doing all three if you're healthy spiritually, if you're healthy emotionally and relationally. And so, honey, I want us to enjoy the money. I don't want us to be irresponsible. I'm so happy you're here. I'm always going to be provided for. We're always going to have money because you are going to make sure of it.

37:49Dave Ramsey:I'm never going to worry about money because I have you. And you're going to learn to have fun because you have me. I'm going to help you have fun. I'm guessing it's partially why he married you.

38:01George Kamel:Oh, yeah. I'm the one that plans the trips and the extra things that we're doing and stuff. But, I mean, you're right. He is responsible. I feel like I'm responsible, too, in the sense, but I feel like there's definitely—I'm trying to figure out a way of— I'm not saying you're irresponsible.

38:16Dave Ramsey:I'm just saying he's hyper-responsible.

38:18George Kamel:He is very hyper-responsible. I mean, if I bought a name-brand ketchup, you know, he's like, what, did we win the lottery? You know, and I'm like, okay, well, you know—

38:26Dave Ramsey:Next time you say that, I'm going to hit you with the ketchup. I'm going to smack you across the forehead with a ketchup bottle.

38:33George Kamel:Yeah.

38:34Dave Ramsey:I'm serious. That's so silly.

38:36George Kamel:That's so silly. Do you guys do a monthly budget? Do you actually sit down and look at the numbers? Yes, we use every dollar. And there's money left over at the end of the month, right? Oh, yes. Where does that all go? Just to investments. I mean, we invest about 20 % of our income. We make about$250 ,000 a year.

38:56Dave Ramsey:And how much do you have in your nest egg?

39:00George Kamel:Our net worth is about$800 ,000.

39:02Dave Ramsey:You're about to be millionaires and you're 30 years old. So, see, I told you the guy's a great guy. I mean, what he's doing is working. But he really has got to dial this back about 5%. The ketchup bottle thing and the cutting the oven off thing and the Burger King thing, that's just over in the weird column, y 'all. I mean, that's just, that's strange. Okay? Yeah. And so quit being strange. I tell him to go to therapy, but I assume he won't pay for it. So that's kind of a conundrum there.

39:30George Kamel:You might have to tell him it's free. The first one's free. You may be able to see a counselor at our house.

39:34Dave Ramsey:Go have coffee with a friend, but I'd have to buy the coffee. Too frugal for his own good. No, seriously. And I'm going to send you a copy of Rachel's book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money. And she talks about family of origin. And it's one of the things that causes people to make the decisions we make in our upbringing. And Rachel and Winston are a little bit like y 'all. Winston's the tighter, more conservative one, and Rachel's the fun girl. Right? Right. And so and Winston really needs Rachel because he wouldn't be any fun without Rachel. And Rachel really needs Winston because he's super responsible and they've got a great net worth and they do a great job managing money.

40:15Dave Ramsey:And they, you know, she teaches him how to have fun. He teaches her how to save money. I mean, it's a this is an ongoing thing. They've been married 12 years. I mean, this is how they do it. And that's the same with Sharon. It's the dance. Sharon. Sharon's the saver. I'm the spender. And, you know, I'm the frugal one in our house.

40:31George Kamel:So I relate, but I don't go this far. I don't go this far if Whitney comes home with the Heinz ketchup instead of the, you know, generic brand. But left to my own devices. Unless it was Kirkland. I at least try to go, I find what's on sale, and that's kind of how I shop. Okay. But if Whitney goes out shopping, I don't expect her to live by my standards. Your weirdness. Exactly. I mean, your cheapness. There we go. I mean, your frugality. But you know what I did is I forced myself to spend money in the budget. So I have George fund money. Oh, you know what? That's a good idea. And Whitney keeps me accountable to spend it.

41:00Dave Ramsey:That's why I asked about the budget. Yeah, we need to put a fund category for Boy Child in there and let him go have some fun. You have to spend some money on you. Otherwise – You know, I did that when we first started with Sharon because we had clothing envelopes. We're talking about the envelopes a while ago. Yeah. And she spent it all on the kids' clothes. She said, well, I don't need anything. I don't need anything. I'll just make something out of the drapes, you know. And I'm like, what are you, Scarlett O 'Hara? I mean, seriously. And so I had to separate the envelopes. We had Sharon's clothing.

41:28Dave Ramsey:Yep. Kids' clothing. And you can't spend anything in that envelope except what the envelope says. So you have to spend this on you. And she's gotten over that, by the way. Now she's very comfortable. Particularly shoes, yeah. But, I mean, yeah, she's very comfortable buying it. Isn't this cute? Yeah, that just cost me. Now she's a shoe museum. It's so cute. It's come a long way. It's unbelievably how cute that is. I'm proud of you guys, Dave. That's progress. Well, I mean, that's only 40 years we've been working on it, so we eventually get there. But, yeah, make him have a category with his name on it, and he has to spend it on something fun.

42:00Dave Ramsey:in something that's irresponsible and wild and crazy. He needs a hobby. And give him 30 bucks a month to do that.

42:06George Kamel:Yeah, make him spend some money on a hobby, and he'll go, gosh, this is actually fun. And he'll start to unwind a little bit from the tightwad syndrome.

42:13Dave Ramsey:That's a good idea. That's a good idea, George. That's better than all the other blabbing I did in the whole call. I'm a man of brevity. Yeah. Well, you got right to it. I can tell you that.

42:41George Kamel:Hey guys, George here. Listen, 99 times out of 100, when people say, I don't know where my money goes, it's not a math problem. It's a behavior problem. They're not budgeting. Then they're shocked when their bank account hits triple zeros. Well, here's the deal. Winning with money is about doing the boring stuff consistently. And that includes banking someplace that helps you stop guessing with your money, like Fairwinds Credit Union. They're not going to fix your habits. That part's on you. But they do support people who are ready to take control of their money. At Fairwinds, you get a high-yield savings account with a great rate to help grow your emergency fund, a checking account that won't nickel and dime you, and up to 10 free savings accounts so you can organize your money on purpose.

43:19George Kamel:Because when you stay disciplined, your money gets predictable, manageable, and boring in the best way. So if you're ready for a bank that helps you be intentional, open your smart bundle today at fairwinds.org slash Ramsey and get the Ramsey Be Weird debit card to go along with it. That's fairwinds.org slash Ramsey, insured by the NCUA.

43:51Dave Ramsey:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. George Camel, Ramsey personality, is my co-host. I'm Dave Ramsey. Daniel is on the line in Salt Lake City. Hi, Daniel. How are you?

44:05George Kamel:Hey, fellas. How we doing?

44:07Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve, sir. How can we help? Oh, so I got divorced about two years ago.

44:16George Kamel:Well, separated two years ago, finalized a year ago. There was effectively starting over financially, pretty much lost all the equity in the house.

44:32And I'm 42.

44:34George Kamel:to, I've learned a lot of the basics on, I want to say basics, I've actually learned finance within that point. I actually understand money now, but it just feels like I'm too late. It feels like I'm too far behind. And I'll never catch up to actually retire at a decent age with my back still straight.

44:54Dave Ramsey:Yeah. You said you're 40, right? 42. 42.

44:59George Kamel:Got divorced at 40.

45:00Dave Ramsey:Yeah. And your income is what, sir?

45:04George Kamel:Right now it's about$85 ,000.

45:06Dave Ramsey:Okay. All right. And so the house and a bunch of the stuff went away. Did you end up with debt also, or are you debt-free but have nothing? Are you even?

45:21George Kamel:Debt-free but have nothing.

45:23Dave Ramsey:Okay. Do you have anything in a 401K from before?

45:27George Kamel:Yes, but it's – well, so from before, no. It all went to her? Well, yes and no. It's not like she kept it. The context is one of the main reasons we divorced was she racked up a lot of debt behind my back.

45:45Dave Ramsey:Oh, okay. All right. And so you cleaned out the 401k to pay that, so you got nothing?

45:52George Kamel:I've never formally had one because I worked construction my whole life, and I worked for smaller companies that never offered a retirement.

45:59Dave Ramsey:Okay. All right. I'm just trying to catch up. So you literally have no debt, but you're renting a house or an apartment? Yes, correct. And you have no debt on your car?

46:11George Kamel:Correct. I mean, I did that smart. I got a 2010 Toyota Tundra. I just rolled over 251 ,000 miles, never broken. I love it. I'll do the maintenance.

46:21Dave Ramsey:A car will go on another 250. That's a great car. Yes, sir. Okay. And you're working construction, so that's a perfect truck for it. Absolutely.

46:30George Kamel:uh well i've taken it i've taken a promotion um i'm now in the management side rather than the

46:35Dave Ramsey:field install okay all right um well here's the thing and the biggest thing you have to overcome is not the mathematical challenge of being okay by age 65 because that's a lay down we can you definitely are going to be fine you're going to be a multi-millionaire we could show you how to have a million bucks in a nest egg by then but easy maybe two okay but the biggest thing you've got to overcome is two things. How long were you married? Well, we were together for 21 years, married for 14. Yeah. Okay. So you're grieving a death, a broken heart, a relationship that died after 21 years. And with that goes a broken heart.

47:21Dave Ramsey:it goes anger it goes loss of confidence in myself because i let this go on longer than i should have um the part you played in it that you just kind of turned a blind eye and then finally you didn't and all that crap if you were just starting fresh without any scars on your heart and you were just 18 years old and all smiles we could just turn you loose on the world making 85 ,000 and you go have a bunch of money pretty quick, but you've got to overcome the lack of confidence in yourself and quit looking in the rear view mirror. It's smaller than the windshield. That's called grace. Start looking forward instead of backwards so much.

48:02Dave Ramsey:You know, learn a few lessons that I didn't, that I did wrong, but I want to not do those again, but that's all I got from the past. The rest of the past is just gone. It's past. It's over. Let's go forward and say, okay, because George, 15 % of$85 ,000, did you run that? I ran the numbers for him here.

48:18George Kamel:From 42 to 67, you'd be investing a little over$1 ,000 a month. If you follow our plan, 15 % of your household income, you'd have$1.4 million, and that's at 10%. If you get 11 or 12, you're talking$1.6,$1.7,$1.8, and that's if you're never going to raise.

48:32Dave Ramsey:I think you're going to have$2 million or more at 65 if you do what we teach and you follow it. So you're going to live on a written budget. You're not going to borrow money. You're going to have an emergency fund. And you're going to put 15 % of your income, whatever you make the rest of your life, away into good retirements and good growth stock mutual funds. Get online. Go to RamseySolutions.com. Find the SmartVestor Pro in your area that we have vetted and that we trust and that does stuff the way we teach. And they'll sit down and go, okay, your company has a 401K. You can do this or it doesn't and you can do that and you can do this and you can do this.

49:07Dave Ramsey:And you need to be putting aside, in your case, right around$1 ,000 a month. That's about$15 ,000 a year. I mean, about 15 % of your income. And if you never get a raise in the next 30 years, which would officially make you a loser, okay, if you never get a raise, you're still going to have over a million and a half dollars. That's with no employer match your whole life in a retirement account. If there's match and you get raises, it's going to be more than that. But you're going to have to do this as methodical. It's just every stinking month,$1 ,000 goes into something. And I don't know what your mix is, what you're going to be able to put it in, but we're going to put it into Roth 401ks with a match first, and then we're going to put it into anything with a match second, and then we're going to put it into Roth IRAs and all-in-good-growth stock mutual funds, and you're going to have serious money.

49:58Dave Ramsey:And stay out of debt so that you can do that. And when you start dating again someday, and he's like, uh-uh, Well, you will. But once you get past this a little bit, you know, you're looking for someone that wants to join you in this wealth-building venture, not suck the marrow out of your bones. And so, you know, because you can't make enough money when someone's sucking the marrow out of your bones to end up with anything but broken even at 42, which is where you are. So you're fine. You can become wealthy. and you're going to have a lot of money if you just simply follow this plan. But the biggest impediment you have today is a broken heart and confidence that it can be done because you're sitting there saying, I don't know if it's too late.

50:49Dave Ramsey:You're a 42. You're not even close to too late. If you call me up and you're 72, we'll have this discussion. But you're 42. You've got decades to make this right.

51:01George Kamel:He's comparing his 42-year-old self to his 39-year-old self who had a bunch of money. But his life was imploding.

51:08Dave Ramsey:It's not like it's been ongoing, but whatever. His 34-year-old self.

51:11George Kamel:What I had, and now I don't, and now it feels like I'm behind. Exactly. That's fair, too. You'll hear callers on the show who are in crippling debt at your age who still have a mountain to climb cleaning this mess up, and you're actually in a good spot.

51:22Dave Ramsey:Yeah, you're—

51:22George Kamel:All things considered. You have a great income and no debt.

51:24Dave Ramsey:You don't have to talk anybody into this. It's just you. The guy in your mirror is the only one you've got to talk into it. That's the only one that can mess it up. That's a lot easier than the way you've been living. You've been trying to push the rock up a hill by yourself. And, man, so, yeah, you're going to be fine. So you hang on. We're going to get you set up with every dollar. And I'm going to send you a copy of the book that started the whole thing, the Total Money Makeover with the baby steps, and show you exactly what to do next, what to do next, what to do next. I want you to build an emergency fund of three to six months of expenses, but you're going to do that in just a few months.

51:57Dave Ramsey:And then you're going to kick in on this 15 % of your income, and you're going to retire with anywhere from$2 to$3 million at age 65 to age 70, somewhere in there. That's where you should land.

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54:18Dave Ramsey:Art's in Buffalo. Hello. Hey, Art. How are you? Hey, Dave. Hey, George. How are you doing? Better than we deserve. How can we help?

54:27George Kamel:So I got a question. I'm calling to find out if our plan is possible. My fiancé and I want to retire within the next five to seven years. I'm 42. She's 45.

54:45Dave Ramsey:And we'd like to retire early. What are you going to do with the rest of your life? Travel.

54:53George Kamel:We like to travel. We do a lot of traveling now, and that's the plan. We have an RV now.

55:04So for 40 years, as long as you've already been alive, you're going to travel.

55:12Dave Ramsey:I like to travel, too. But my God, son, you're going to do nothing for the next 30 years but travel? until we get bored of traveling. Okay, I don't recommend that as a life decision. I don't think that's going to make you as happy as you think it is. Now, if you want to travel a lot while you have something that you actually do that contributes to your life and contributes to things, that's fine too. But I wouldn't do nothing but travel unless you said I'm going to do that for two years or something like that. That's fine. But to have that to be your only plan for 30 years is pretty shallow, and I can't recommend that.

55:54Dave Ramsey:I don't think it's going to make you as happy as you think it is. I'm just going to tell you. Anyway, let's answer your question anyway about your numbers. So your fiancé, when are you getting married?

56:05George Kamel:That's probably within the next year.

56:07Dave Ramsey:Okay. Got that tacked down. Not at all. Okay.

56:14Dave Ramsey:And how much do you have saved?

56:18George Kamel:So I have$45 ,000 in my 401. I've got$10 ,000 in a high-yield savings,$10 ,000 in a brokerage account. I've got$50 ,000 in cash. I've got a rental property that's paid off. Right now I only have about$45 ,000 in debt.

56:38Dave Ramsey:What does the rental property produce? $1 ,500 a month. Man, you're going to be on beans and rice. You're not retiring in five years. You're going to travel on$1 ,500 a month. So, no.

56:58George Kamel:I mean, I plan on obviously contributing more to it in the next five to seven years.

57:06Dave Ramsey:Yeah, like$500 ,000 or$600 ,000? What do you make? Together, we make almost$200 ,000. Okay. All right. If you want to save$100 ,000 a year for the next five years between the two of you, and you get very specific on your marriage date so that you can do that safely without putting either one of you at risk, $100 ,000 a year would be$500 ,000, and then you've got the$1 ,500 a month coming in from the rental property. That'll produce$50 ,000 a year, give or take. So you'd have a$65 ,000 or$70 ,000 income to live on. That's not much traveling.

57:47George Kamel:Okay, so also with her, she's got$240 ,000 in her deferred count. She's got$50 ,000 in a Roth. And I'll also get older money when I turn 60, Social Security.

58:03Dave Ramsey:You're not going to turn 60 for 20 years. And you say you're 42? Yeah. That's 18 years. Yeah. Okay. Okay. The answer to your question is no. I don't think you're going to be able to do what you can accomplish with the money you've got. If you want to, you're just going to – if you do, it's going to be a very thin budget. I mean, we're talking if gas prices go up, the RV's parked. I mean, I don't know where you're going to be going on this kind of money because we're talking about you're going to have maybe$50 ,000,$75 ,000, maybe$80 ,000 a year to live on without destroying your nest eggs that you're building between now and then.

58:47Dave Ramsey:And traveling full-time will eat that up pretty quick. Yeah, I don't know what kind of traveling you're talking about doing, but if that will do it for you, then yeah, you could do it. But that's a lot of truck stop food right there, man. We're not doing fine dining here. There's no Michelin stars involved in this process. Yeah.

59:07George Kamel:And you said you had only$45 ,000 in debt, and that tells me you've probably been funding a lot of this travel on credit cards with money you don't have, and that part scares me.

59:16Dave Ramsey:Yeah.

59:21Dave Ramsey:Yeah, I think I would look for a different process, because I don't think this is – you don't have the math ready within the period of time we're talking about. So what I probably would do is this. I might retool and reset what I do for a living that gives me a lot more flexibility to where I could travel 30 or 40 percent of the year, work the rest of the time, not necessarily consecutive time, but take off a week here, a week there, two weeks here, two weeks there, that kind of thing. and the rest of the time I run this business that I start and I'm making$100 ,000 a year and I keep an income stream going to fund the travel and then let the nest egg build, I think you're going to have a better quality of travel and a better quality of life overall

1:00:19Dave Ramsey:than I'm having trouble picturing how this dream works out to be anything that's dreamy.

1:00:24George Kamel:I don't think it'll last for long is the problem. You're going to have to go back to work eventually.

1:00:28Dave Ramsey:If it does, it's going to be a lot of stuff on the cheap, which will get old faster. And given that you have income potential for another 30 years, there's something left out of the equation here. I'm just not comfortable with this. I wouldn't do it, so I can't tell you to do it. I don't tell people to do stuff I wouldn't do. I can answer your question, and the question is you're not really going to have enough money in five or six years to do this well. It's going to be very tight if you do it, and you're going to struggle. And I would rather have a hybrid thing where I'm working less but instead of not at all and traveling less than you have in your mind but are able to do it at a better rate, a better quality of travel, get to go places, you know, and, you know, it's that you really did dream about going to sea.

1:01:30Dave Ramsey:It's more of just a downshift. Instead of just, it feels like we're running away from a career I'm burnt out on rather than running to something. That's what's bothering me.

1:01:41George Kamel:Well, I find that a lot in the fire movement, Dave, and it sounds like that's kind of what he's after here. Well, this is not, it's not even, the fire movement's got better, the fire movement's

1:01:48Dave Ramsey:even got better goals than this though the goals associated with this are just horrible i mean the

1:01:53George Kamel:fire movement is not they're a little more clear about here's the number yeah you need a bigger

1:01:56Dave Ramsey:number it's always got a bigger number on it when i see that stuff it's not um you know it's a

1:02:02George Kamel:seven figure number yeah that they can live off of as a bridge until they get so describe to people

1:02:07Dave Ramsey:the fire movement because it isn't what we teach but it's out there it's existed for a long time

1:02:12George Kamel:and it's called financial independence retire early and essentially it's let's work our tails off, get our income way up, keep our expenses way down, and then invest the margin in non-retirement investments so that we can use that as a bridge to live from 45, 50, 55, all the way through retirement before we can access those funds. And some people do it. And I think the later you do it, the better your life is. The earlier you do it, what we find is that they either get bored or they run out of money or their goalpost changes and they realize, I can't do this. I got to keep going and keep investing.

1:02:46Dave Ramsey:Well, it's—

1:02:47George Kamel:Very few have done it successfully for their whole life.

1:02:52Dave Ramsey:The idea of not working is much more appealing when you hate everything you do. Which is a lot of these jobs. And it's unrealistically appealing because I'm now 65 years old, and so my contemporaries, my friends, have sold their businesses. and some of them are the most miserable they've been in their lives because they don't have anything to do. They travel and they play golf and they fish.

1:03:19George Kamel:And they're productive, smart people.

1:03:20Dave Ramsey:And they travel and they fish and they play golf. And they're not very good at it. And they're not having as much fun as they were when they had their hand to something. And they will tell me that often. They're like, I envy you because you still work. Well, you like the work you do. That makes all the difference.

1:03:41Thank you.

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1:05:23Dave Ramsey:Sarah is in Portland, Oregon. Hi, Sarah. How are you?

1:05:27George Kamel:I'm doing great. How are you doing?

1:05:29Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

1:05:32George Kamel:Nice. So quick question. My aunt is hiding debt from my uncle. Do I get involved and tell him? Quick question and then convoluted story that kind of goes along with that. Oh, it has to be. It has to be a great story.

1:05:46Dave Ramsey:It's got to be a great story. How old are these two?

1:05:49George Kamel:They're in their 60s. They have no retirement. One is not working on Social Security. My aunt is not working on Social Security, and husband is...

1:05:58Dave Ramsey:How did you get into the middle of this?

1:06:02George Kamel:They took me in when I was a child and raised me, so they're very much like my parents, and their kids are very much like my siblings.

1:06:10Dave Ramsey:Are the other kids in on the secret as well?

1:06:14George Kamel:Most of them, as far as I know, that's who I've heard a lot of this from and from my aunt herself. Okay. Why haven't they told her? Him. Or him. Because they're, yeah, that nobody wants to be the rat. And now it's also generational. The daughter is doing the same thing for her husband, hiding that.

1:06:40Okay.

1:06:41Dave Ramsey:Well, I mean, you've got two options. One is you just stand back and watch this thing unfold, which is bothering you, I can tell. And I don't know the depth of your relationship. It sounds like more of a mother than an aunt, the way you're describing her. Correct. And I don't know how dysfunctional the lady is. I can tell she's a little bit or a lot, but I don't know how bad it is. So what would happen if you sat down with her and said, Mom, what you're doing is wrong. and I love dad and I'm not going to let you do this to him. So you have four days till Friday evening to tell him. If you haven't told him about Friday evening, you're going to see my smiling face here Saturday morning.

1:07:24Dave Ramsey:I'm going to tell him.

1:07:27George Kamel:I can definitely do that. She has shared some of her debt already with him, but she's hiding some of it because she thinks that he's going to end up controlling everything she has and get really angry and blow up, Which has happened in the past.

1:07:42Dave Ramsey:Well, I think that's probably accurate. Sounds like she needs that. Yeah. And guess what? When you lie and deceive and cheat and hide target bags under the bed, then it's not cute when you're 60. It's just dysfunctional. It's gross. So, yeah, I think he, you know, I don't think he should react any differently. But what they should do is put a game plan together that the two of them both have full transparency and they start handling their money together. And then she can buy whatever that the two of them decide together that she can buy. And he can buy whatever the two of them decide together that they can buy.

1:08:25Dave Ramsey:And so that we don't have to retire and eat dog food. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the proper way of handling this is that not just get mad and become controlling, but get mad and go, okay, we're going to control this to the point that you don't do anything except that we do it together and I don't do anything except that we do it together. And that's the fix for this. But, you know, it sounded like your reaction to my suggestion was that might work. You tell her you have a deadline and if you don't do it, I'm going to tell him.

1:08:58George Kamel:Yes, I have been in the middle of a little bit of stuff before where she's tried to hide something and I said, no, you can't do that. and we won't help you with that. And she didn't talk to me for months. Well, that's okay, too. So I was, okay.

1:09:12Dave Ramsey:I mean, because your other option is just be the rat. Yeah. That's the third option. One's do nothing. Two is say you have till Friday or I'm going to tell him. That's not being a rat. That's being an adult. I agree. And a rat is I sneak around behind her and use information on her against her. and that's being a rat. But just telling the truth in a dysfunctional situation to help clean it up, that's being an adult. And think about this.

1:09:43George Kamel:Their financial mess is going to become everyone's problem eventually. She's already trying to make it their problem. We're worried about that. And you are in the middle of this then. Say, hey, this is going to affect us. It's already affecting us and we can't live like this anymore. You need to talk to them.

1:10:00Dave Ramsey:I love you and I love dad too much to participate in deception and in things that are going to bring you all apart rather than together. They're going to cause you to be unsuccessful rather than successful. We want you to be successful. And it starts with you coming clean. And then you guys put together a plan and I'll coach you and be your cheerleader on how to do that if you want me to. But you have until Friday, mom. And then Saturday, my smiling face is going to be sitting there and on the front porch with a cup of coffee with dad. and you're going to know what we're talking about. Yeah. And that's just because I'm not going to be a part of deception.

1:10:39Dave Ramsey:That says things about me, not about you, and I'm not going to do that. And I love Dad too much to be a part of something that's hurtful to him just to protect you, and somehow you're going to corner me like I'm eight years old and I'm a rat. I'm not a rat. I'm an adult. And this is dysfunction, and we need to clean it up, and we need to get transparency on it and alignment on it so we can work to a forward future that is fun and successful again. Joseph is in Athens, Georgia. How are you, Joseph? I'm good.

1:11:13George Kamel:How are you doing?

1:11:14Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

1:11:17George Kamel:So I am 30 years old. I've lived my life very frugally, and I've tried saving as much as I can. I currently have a mortgage which is my only debt and I'm paying that off aggressively and I'm getting married in about a month and thank you my future wife will be coming in with a substantial amount of debt

1:11:43Dave Ramsey:and I have about$220 ,000 good lord is she a doctor or a lawyer she'll be a pharmacist all the debt is from student loans

1:11:54George Kamel:just for grad school.

1:11:55Dave Ramsey:She paid a lot for her pharmacy school. Okay, so she's going to make$135 ,000 a year, right? About that, yes, sir. Almost like I've done this before. And she got$220 ,000 in debt, and you make what?

1:12:11George Kamel:It's ranged significantly over the last four years. Last year I made$450 ,000.

1:12:15Dave Ramsey:Good for you. What do you do?

1:12:18George Kamel:I own a roofing company.

1:12:20Dave Ramsey:Good for you. Man, I love it. Yeah, you're printing money. And how much do you have saved?

1:12:28George Kamel:If I pull everything together, it's about$700 ,000.

1:12:33Dave Ramsey:And in non-retirement or does that include retirement?

1:12:37George Kamel:There's about 50 in retirement, and the rest is just stock accounts.

1:12:41Dave Ramsey:Okay. So after you get married, you could just write a check and pay off the student loan, right? I could.

1:12:48George Kamel:But every time I go to, well, based on your teachings, I would never do that until the day after we get married.

1:12:55Dave Ramsey:Good.

1:12:56George Kamel:But every time I go to get that in order, sell stocks or things like that, it's hard. Oh, yeah. It makes you want to throw up a little in the back of your mouth.

1:13:06Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It's the buffer that you've built. It's really hard. I mean, you're a frugal saver, and we're getting ready to go the opposite direction at 100 miles an hour. Of course it makes your stomach come up in your throat. If it didn't, you'd be weird. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Now, are you guys aligned on the money values in general? Going forward, never doing this again?

1:13:28George Kamel:We are. Pharmacy was always her dream, and she actually was on a full ride for undergrad, and this is all grad school.

1:13:35Dave Ramsey:And she got completely screwed then. Okay.

1:13:38George Kamel:It was all in-state.

1:13:39Dave Ramsey:Oh, yeah. She paid double, triple what she should have. Okay. It doesn't matter now. It's behind her. But are you guys aligned, we're never doing this again for any dream or anything or anything I want or never again? I can't do it again. I can do it one time, honey. But if you think I'm going to live my whole life doing this.

1:13:59George Kamel:We are completely aligned on we have no intent to ever have debt on anything ever again.

1:14:04Dave Ramsey:And she's saying that loudly and with strength in her voice, not just going along with Joseph.

1:14:11George Kamel:Completely bought in.

1:14:12Dave Ramsey:Okay. All right, cool. yes, then that's what I would do. But I will also sympathize and empathize with you that, you know, you're going to need a good stiff double shot of bourbon right after you do this. Oh, my gosh.

1:14:24George Kamel:She's worth it and this sucks.

1:14:26Dave Ramsey:Yeah, she's worth every dime of it. But, man, it's just, that's hard. You've been working a long time to build this up. You've got a lot of calluses, a lot of roofing shingles slung over your shoulder to get to this. If you did this by 30, you're going to build it right back up. Oh, man. Oh, they'll be there in no time. Thank you.

1:15:19Dave Ramsey:Speaking of things that make you want to throw up a little bit, tax season is here, but gross. If you want some free checklists and guides that'll help you file, go to RamseySolutions.com slash taxes, and we'll help you with the process. Doesn't cost a thing. I noticed the word was free. Did you notice that? Chris is with us in Miami. Hi, Chris. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Better than I deserve. How can I help?

1:15:52George Kamel:So let me give you a little bit of what's going on. I'm 25. I just got out of jail eight months ago. Since then, I've been at a program which has been allowing me to work. They allow you to work after a certain period of time. So I've been working about six months at a car wash or a dealership or whatever. um i have a few certifications i saved up 6k like 6.6 but i have debt and i'd say that's like around 13 000 i could like break it down but that's another thing i have going on and i mentioned the certifications i have but not it's not like but i just i'm kind of lost at finding a career too so i'm basically just trying to like invest and change my life around and everything like that

1:16:43Dave Ramsey:so good for you good for you i'm proud of you so how long were you in jail i was in jail 10 months for what a felony yes okay do you want another charge i don't care if

1:16:58George Kamel:you want to tell me it's fine uh there's an aggravated battery and uh in a grand theft auto Okay.

1:17:06Dave Ramsey:All right. So have you got all that kind of behavior stuff in your rearview mirror? Because that's going to be a condition for you to be successful. I mean, obviously, that has to be something we never go near again to be successful in a career and in business. Agreed?

1:17:23George Kamel:Right. Of course.

1:17:24Dave Ramsey:Okay. I mean, that's obvious, right?

1:17:27George Kamel:Yes.

1:17:28Dave Ramsey:Okay. Cool. I'm just going to say it out loud because I'll make sure we're all on the same page. So I'm proud of you, man. Good for you. So we're going to get a clean, fresh start. How old are you?

1:17:38George Kamel:I'm 25.

1:17:39Dave Ramsey:Okay. And you said you're working in a car wash now. What are you making now?

1:17:45George Kamel:14 flat tips, the tips.

1:17:48Dave Ramsey:Okay. All right. Cool. And what do you do to get tips? Like super dry the windshield and all when they come through the car wash and run around and smile and make sure they get a super extra touch of niceness and you're smiling and they give you a tip. Is that how that works?

1:18:05George Kamel:Right. Yeah, basically.

1:18:07Dave Ramsey:Yeah, lots of energy and eye contact and smiles and people skills, right? Yes. That's a good thing to practice, by the way. That works in the boardroom. That works at the car wash. That works at the table when you're serving in a restaurant. That works just about anywhere you go. Okay, so that's a good thing to work through. Those are soft skills. Yeah, exactly. You need those. Now, is the plan to continue to work there for a while, or what's your plan right now?

1:18:37George Kamel:The plan? Because I could be leaving the program earliest in June, latest in December if I get an extension. The plan now is to save as much money as possible. I'm at$6 ,000. I want to leave with$10 ,000.

1:18:51Dave Ramsey:Good.

1:18:52George Kamel:But the plan now is to save as much as possible for when I have to pay rent and start living on my own. find a career. I can't even stress that enough.

1:19:01Dave Ramsey:Yeah, good for you. I like that a lot. Okay, what are you thinking about doing as a career?

1:19:10George Kamel:I'm not sure. I can tell you the couple of certifications I have. I have a certification in OSHA 10. I could join the union, be a welder. I heard that's a good thing. I have a forklift certification, and I just got certified in being a personal trainer. I had an interview. I didn't get the job, but the people at the program are telling me just to keep going and stay positive. So those are the three certifications I have right now.

1:19:36Dave Ramsey:Okay.

1:19:36George Kamel:I have experience in other jobs, of course, but it was like...

1:19:40Dave Ramsey:Okay. On the short term, I like the welding and the forklift because you're probably going to make$30 to$40 an hour at either one of those. And the personal trainer is going to take a while to build a book of business where you start making a living.

1:19:55George Kamel:That's like a nights and weekends thing.

1:19:57Dave Ramsey:Yeah, that might be my side hustle, and I practice some of those soft skills we're talking about, and your people skills and so forth while they're there. Meanwhile, I'm driving a forklift 40 hours a week, making$30,$40 an hour. I'm looking for that right now if I'm you. So the good news is welding and anything, the trades where you're driving something, those kinds of things, there's a shortage of help right now, and it's a really good job market for you. So if I'm you, I'm going to start really looking for those two things right now, even though you're not going to start today. You're still in the program.

1:20:31Dave Ramsey:But I want to know 16 people that are hiring, forklift driving within a 30-mile or 40-mile radius, if you're going to stay in the Miami area. Or if you're going to move up into Fort Lauderdale, where are we going? Where are we going to get that kind of a job? The good news is that's a big metropolitan market there, huge market, one of the top five cities, areas in the nation. And so lots of things happening there in commerce and welding and in forklifting. So I want you to go, you know, practice those interviews, a bunch of them and stay positive. And anybody you can get a connection to that will give you a chance and give you a job.

1:21:09Dave Ramsey:And then when you get there and you land that first position, it's very important that you become the best employee that company has ever had. that they are so proud six months from the time they hire you that they gave you a shot because you're early you leave late you work hard while you're there you're accident free and careful you're kind to the people around you you don't stir up crap you get the work done and everybody else get their work done you're like a dream come true of an employee that's your job it's not just to do the job you got to do the job plus everything else so that everybody's happy they gave Chris a shot at his new life and you know what will happen then five years from now you'll own the forklift company.

1:22:15Dave Ramsey:So a friend of mine owns a forklift company right now. He doesn't have any branches where you are, but they're in seven cities, hundreds of millions of dollars. His father bought the forklift company, but he started as the janitor and worked his way from janitor to driving to management, bought the forklift company, His dad passed away a few years ago. Buddy of mine runs the whole thing with his brothers. And that's your future. That's your grandkids we're talking about. But it starts right now with Chris changing his life. That's where this can go. And it can start with something as simple as you're the best employee they've ever had.

1:23:01Dave Ramsey:And by the way, start practicing that at the car wash today. Those skills will transfer right over. Everybody that's around you that's negative, stay away from them. Everybody that's around you that's positive, you're going to become who you hang around with. When they're smiling and they're happy and they're grateful for the job, I'm grateful I got a towel in my hand and I'm not in a jail. And I get to clean this windshield right now. And I am the happiest human being that's free on the planet right now. And, you know, you just got an attitude of gratitude. Who are you hanging out with? Who are you acting like?

1:23:35Dave Ramsey:And then I want you to start reading books like a crazy man and applying yourself. I think you're going to do really well. I'm excited for you. I think you're going to have a great new future. And part of the reason I think that is a guy like you that calls a show like this, you got a real shot, man. The guys like you that don't call a show like this, they're going to be back in jail. They're going to have other problems. But when you reach out and you say, how can I change my life? What can I do? That's the guy that goes and wins. You're the guy that they write books about later. That's what you can be.

1:24:11George Kamel:Some of our debt-free screams are some of the most inspiring from those that have been incarcerated and they come out.

1:24:16Dave Ramsey:Man, they'll get you some leaky eyes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Hang on. We're going to give you a copy of Ken Coleman's book, Finding the Work You're Wired to Do. It has an assessment in it. It's our gift to you. I want you to take the assessment. I want you to read the book. Remember, you become who you hang around with and what you read. So choose who you hang around with and what you read. Because 10 years later, you're going to look just like them, buddy. That's how it works.

1:25:27Dave Ramsey:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show and the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, George Camel. Ramsey Personality is my co-host today. Dave is with us in Raleigh, North Carolina. Hi, Dave. How are you?

1:25:40George Kamel:I'm doing well. Thanks for taking the call. Sure. My question is a financial question and I guess a spiritual question.

1:25:50Dave Ramsey:Okay.

1:25:50George Kamel:I was raised to respect both my parents when my parents got divorced when I was nine. My dad never, ever let me speak ill of my mother. He passed away in June. She's still alive. And she's going through struggles right now. And since December, we've come out of pocket almost$13 ,000 to pay for things for her. And it's starting to put a dent in our savings and our planning. And I'm wondering where that line between respecting your parents and putting yourself in jeopardy, where it ends.

1:26:26Dave Ramsey:Well, you're a good man. You take after your dad. So what has your mom gotten herself into this$13 ,000? What's the deal?

1:26:34George Kamel:Well, she went into the hospital in December with an illness. She got out. She retired from her job at 52, and instead of taking the life cycle pension from her company, she took a cash lump sum option, and she spent all of that in about six years. How old is she now? She's 76.

1:27:00Dave Ramsey:Okay.

1:27:01George Kamel:So she's been living off of Social Security and any amount of money that I've been able to provide her. And Medicare. Yep, and that as well.

1:27:11Dave Ramsey:And so the$13 ,000 was what Medicare didn't cover on the hospital stay?

1:27:15George Kamel:So$13 ,000, we're trying to move her up to the Raleigh area where we're at, Florida. So we tallied up how much it costs for the U-Haul. She's in the hospital again down in Florida. So we tallied up like U-Hauls, flights, doctor's visits that weren't covered. So, yeah, it's starting to become kind of a struggle for us. Okay, so she's currently in the hospital.

1:27:39Dave Ramsey:So the$13 ,000 has not happened yet, but that's what you think it's going to take to move her and clear up the mess.

1:27:45George Kamel:Oh, no, it's happened already. That's what we're at so far.

1:27:48Dave Ramsey:Oh, and then so there's more to come if you move her. Yes, correct. Okay, does she own a home there?

1:27:56George Kamel:No, sir. She's been renting since she moved to Florida. What's her Social Security every month, her income? Around$2 ,100. Okay.

1:28:07Dave Ramsey:All right. Well, so let me pan back just a second, and then we'll come in and actually work on the mechanics of how you can actually help her, okay? But let's pan back from the thing of honor your father and mother, the Bible says. that does not mean that we honor dad doing cocaine okay it means that we honor the position of father not the misbehavior of the individual who holds the position it's the same as when we pray for our leaders we don't necessarily have to like them personally or their politics but we're still supposed to pray for our leaders, pray for the president, right? And so I agreed with almost nothing Joe Biden said, but I believe in praying for the president.

1:29:00Dave Ramsey:So I prayed for Joe Biden, okay? You follow me? And you can go wherever you want to go with that. The same thing's true here. So we want to be honoring of the position of mother, but that does not mean we participate in dysfunction or allow it or enable it or something along those lines. So having said that, now how does that play out in your situation? I think you're already on to it. What do you guys make a year?

1:29:27George Kamel:We're about$250 ,000 a year.

1:29:29Dave Ramsey:And how much money do you guys have saved in your nest egg? Close to$2.2 million. Okay, so you don't have a financial problem due to mom. You have an aggravation.

1:29:40George Kamel:It's an aggravation as well as a lot of our short-term savings where you build up.

1:29:46Dave Ramsey:You have$2 million. Shut up. The next paycheck will refill that. No problem. $13 ,000 is not a problem. Okay? We'll figure this out. All right. Okay. But having said that, so you're really not going to go hungry because of this, but we've got to put something reasonable. So I would move mom up there, write a check. Honestly, if I got$2 million, there ain't no U-Haul involved. I'm paying somebody else to do the move. But you do whatever you want to do. I'm not taking my pickup down there. But you do whatever you want to do. But that's me. So anyway, I'm going to get her up there, get the hospital bills cleaned up, and then say, okay, Mom, you are dependent on us to be able to exist.

1:30:26Dave Ramsey:So that means I am now managing your budget. So your$2 ,000 that comes in, we're going to put you on a budget to live on that. We're going to find you a one-bedroom apartment that you live in near us so you can come over and see us on Sundays after church and we can have dinner and whatever. and you're going to be in a nice little apartment that you can afford on$2 ,000 a month. We're going to manage your medical events with Medicare, and my wife and I, we're going to help you a little bit here and there as we need be, but this is not an open checkbook. We're not in Congress, and we're actually going to manage this thing, and you're going to live on what you have to live on because you've spent all your money.

1:31:07Dave Ramsey:And then I'm going to help when I have to, but I'm not going to help because you misbehave. So, Mom, I'm going to help you with this budget, and you're going to have this much for food, and you're going to have this much for lights and water, and we're going to pay your rent, and you're going to have—is she still driving?

1:31:23George Kamel:Yeah, she's capable of driving.

1:31:25Dave Ramsey:Does she have a car? Yes, she does. Okay, so we're going to keep the car up. We're going to keep insurance on it. You're going to have to put gas in the car, Mom, and so you're going to live on that, which means you're going to have a fairly meager life, but that's what you signed up for in this process. But I will make sure that you're not homeless or hungry.

1:31:42George Kamel:yeah and that's and that's the road we've been on we we got the apartment uh two weeks ago we moved her stuff up from florida last week and um unfortunately during the packing process she had

1:31:53Dave Ramsey:to go into the hospital unexpectedly so yeah yeah yeah but that's that's um you know and so you've got x number of years to manage the relationship and the mathematics and that's the way you will honor your mother. But that does not, but it is not honoring to her for you to open up a checkbook and she gets$10 ,000 a month to blow.

1:32:18George Kamel:Yeah, I definitely agree with that.

1:32:20Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Nor were you planning to. Yeah. You weren't, that wasn't why you called, but yeah, I'm just, I, my point is that this philosophical thing I hear sometimes people say in the name of honoring my father and mother, I'm going to justify my enabling. You're not doing that. You're not wanting to do that. But for everyone else listening, I'm trying to put that out there. That is not what the Bible means on that. And so, nor what your dad meant, that you were to not speak ill of her. And you have done a good job of not speaking ill of her. You gave facts of things where she's messed up, but there was no drama in your voice.

1:32:55Dave Ramsey:You just got this thing I'm carrying, and I want to be a good person and be kind to my own mother. And that's good. You know, you should. That makes you a good guy.

1:33:05George Kamel:Yeah, you're there to make sure she's not homeless, prevent the catastrophe. Yeah. But you're not there to also make her super comfortable and have a lavish lifestyle. And so there's a balance there. And I think that boundary is hard to set when it's your own mother and father.

1:33:17Dave Ramsey:But I just think you say this is what it is. And she doesn't have a lot of choices. You don't get a vote at this point. It's the life you set up for yourself. She gave up her vote because she started taking my money. Once she started taking my money, it's my vote. And so now I'm going to help you. Now I'm going to love you well. And you may or may not like the process. but I'm going to love you. You're going to protect her from herself at this point. That's the way you honor her.

1:34:14Dave Ramsey:Hey, guys. Dave Ramsey here. Every day on this show, we help people work through real money problems and figure out what to do next. Now, you can get that same kind of help anytime with Ask Ramsey. Ask your money question and get answers built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision or just want something explained, Ask Ramsey is here to help. It's fast, simple, and free to use. Go to RamseySolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's RamseySolutions.com.

1:35:12Dave Ramsey:Bill is in Rochester, New York. Hey, Bill, how are you? Good, sir. How are you doing? Better than I deserve. What's up? Oh, I wish I could say that.

1:35:23George Kamel:I retired beginning part of the year, January 1st from my job. I've been doing part-time real estate for a couple of years. Now I'm doing it full-time. But it looks like I'm going to be making over the threshold for Social Security Administration to start taking back some of my income through the real estate. Oh, you mean not taking back the income.

1:35:47Dave Ramsey:You mean taxing it?

1:35:49George Kamel:Correct. Yeah, where they tax it 50 cents on the dollar. And I'm just wondering that the money hasn't started coming in from Social Security yet. Do I cancel the claim and just stay with the real estate? Or do I keep that Social Security as like a security blanket, but then I'm going to end up paying a lot of money if I do as well as it looks like I'm going to? You've already claimed it?

1:36:19George Kamel:The claim is in. Okay. But it hasn't started yet. They lost my paperwork. Oh. So. Well, I mean, if there's a way you can back out of this because of that, that's the way to do it. Because once you start, there's no stopping.

1:36:34Dave Ramsey:So how much are you making in the real estate business, Bill? Right now, this year, I haven't made a lot of like$700 for one deal.

1:36:45George Kamel:But I've got one that's under contract. My listing goes live this weekend, and I've got two other ones. Okay, so how much do you think you're going to make in the real estate business? Well, at least$30 ,000. Okay.

1:37:04Dave Ramsey:I don't think$30 ,000 is going to break the means test, does it?

1:37:07George Kamel:$24 ,000 is what they're saying.

1:37:09Dave Ramsey:Oh,$24 ,000. Okay. And the taxes, they tax half of it, but the tax is not 50%. half of your Social Security becomes taxable, which is 30 % of half or 20 % of half. Okay, so how much is your Social Security supposed to be? $2 ,800 a month. Okay, so$1 ,400 becomes taxable if you break the means. Is that right, George? Is that how it works?

1:37:38George Kamel:Yeah, I'm looking at the table here. It is up to 50 % if you're making$25 ,000 to$34 ,000 as a single person. Up to 50 % is taxable, not taxation.

1:37:48Dave Ramsey:Exactly. Right. The benefits of tax. If you're in a 20 % tax bracket, that means 20 % of$1 ,400. So$280 a month. So$3 ,000 a year is the tax bill. Whoopee. And then I can make everything. You can make whatever you want to make.

1:38:16George Kamel:Oh, I thought it was taxed on how much I make over the 24.

1:38:22Dave Ramsey:No, you said 50 % of the Social Security becomes taxable, right, George? Yes.

1:38:27George Kamel:So under$25 ,000, it's 0%. It's that$25 ,000 up to$34 ,000 is what's taxable up to 50 % of the benefits.

1:38:35Dave Ramsey:The 50 % of the benefits become taxable. So if you go make$100 ,000 or you go make$70 ,000 in a real estate business,$1 ,400 a month becomes taxable. Right, George? Yeah. Okay. And if your tax bracket is 20%, your tax amount on$1 ,400 would be 20 % of$1 ,400, which would be$280, which is about$3 ,000 a year.

1:39:01George Kamel:So I don't think it's going to be as awful as you think it is if you continue this.

1:39:05Dave Ramsey:That's my point.

1:39:05George Kamel:Go make a bunch of money. And I'm also seeing you can withdraw the application within the first 12 months. So I think you're still good. If you don't need it right now and you want to work, then don't take it.

1:39:16Dave Ramsey:Yeah, if you're going to go make a bunch of money and you don't want to deal with this, that's fine. But my point is it's mathematically not that big a deal. Don't miss out on making an extra$40 ,000 or$50 ,000 because you've got$3 ,000 in taxes if you do. We're stepping over dollars to pick up a nickel, so it's not worth it. Don't let that be a demotivator to you. So if you want to pull it, George is saying that he's reading up on it right now while we're on the air. I don't know this, but he's saying you can pull the app up in the first 12 months. So pull it if you want to pull it. But otherwise, go to your tax person and sit down and make sure the calculation I'm doing in my head on the air is correct because I could be screwing this up.

1:39:54Dave Ramsey:It's possible. And you can connect with a tax pro. If I understand right, if you sit down with one of our tax pros, go to RamseySolutions.com, they'll tell you what it is. And you can figure out exactly what it's going to be. If it's what I think it is, though, it's about$3 ,000 a year, if I understood the deal right. If you go over$40 ,000, say. If you go make$40 ,000 or$50 ,000, it's going to create an extra taxation on half of your Social Security becomes taxable. and if you're in a 20 % tax bracket, then that would be 20 % of$1 ,400 because 50 % of$2 ,800 is$1 ,400. So that's how I'm doing the math.

1:40:34Dave Ramsey:But in case I'm messing it up, double check it with a professional and then you can decide what you want to do, whether you want to pull the app or not. I'm pretty sure that's an accurate thing that you can pull the app up to 12 months.

1:40:43George Kamel:Yeah, and it sounds like it hasn't even gone through yet.

1:40:46Dave Ramsey:Yeah. So you're fine. I'm not super concerned about that. I'd dial it back and not fool with it if I were you. Because this real estate stuff could take off. Yeah, it sounds like you're fooling around and making some money. That's awesome. You don't need it. That's fun. That's cool. I like that. Andrew is in Indianapolis. Hi, Andrew. How are you?

1:41:05George Kamel:Hey, Dave. I'm doing well. How are you?

1:41:06Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

1:41:09George Kamel:That's good. I have a question about some student loan payoff strategies. I currently have about$107 ,000 in student loan debt. Good Lord.

1:41:18Dave Ramsey:Are you a doctor or a lawyer?

1:41:21George Kamel:I'm a software engineer, but I had a stay on my loan due to a co-center bankruptcy and interest racked up on the private loan.

1:41:30Dave Ramsey:It's a private loan.

1:41:31George Kamel:Very unfortunate. Yeah. Yeah. So about$135 is a private loan, and then around$30 or so is federal.

1:41:39Dave Ramsey:What are you making now?

1:41:42George Kamel:$170.

1:41:42Dave Ramsey:Oh, good. Okay. So when we get through with the call, I'm going to put you on hold, and Christian, our phone screener is going to pick up and put you in touch with the phone. the Y refi people that we advertise for, and they specialize in student loan, private student loans that are in default, recasting them, resetting them, and getting a lower interest rate. They also have a possibility, check on this, of a lump sum discount on your loan. They know how to buy your loan out at a discount and let you buy it out at a discount. And so if it's$130, let's say you could buy it for$80, I want you to scrape together the$80 and take it out.

1:42:20Dave Ramsey:if that could happen. So when we get done with the call, that's going to be your other assignment. But let's go ahead and go into what your question was.

1:42:28George Kamel:Great. Yeah, so I actually already refinanced. So I went through one provider at a 9.85 % interest rate, and I just got it down to 5.81%. Okay. And my question is, I'm going to pay off the federal student loans in about eight months.

1:42:43Dave Ramsey:Good.

1:42:44George Kamel:I'm paying off very aggressively, about$5 ,000 a month.

1:42:48Dave Ramsey:Good. And after I pay off my federal loans, I was wondering if you think I should aggressively pay off the private loans at$5 ,000 a month, or if you think it would be a good idea to pay the minimums every month and

1:43:05George Kamel:invest about$4 ,000 or so into the S &P 500 or any investment. because I understand after three years, take out the sum for the remaining private student loans and pay it off and then have potential upside from market gains. I understand that option one just aggressively paying off the student loans guarantees an equal return to my interest rate.

1:43:29Dave Ramsey:You've left some math out of your equation. Yeah. The math you left out of your equation is risk. Right. And peace of mind. And so here's the data point that I'll tell you. We studied and interviewed, researched 10 ,167 millionaires. Nine out of 10 of them became millionaires starting from nothing. The number of them that said I became a millionaire by not paying off my debt and instead investing to more quickly pay off my debt, the number of millionaires that actually did that plan was zero out of 10 ,000. so no one that has money tries crap like you're trying to pull. Instead, they just pay it off and are free and then take a wonderful$170 ,000 income and get in attack mode and go build some wealth because I got rid of all my stupid debt.

1:44:55George Kamel:When I talk to people on The Ramsey Show, 90 % of the problems I hear come down to one thing, not having a plan. They're not living on a budget. They have no idea where their money's going. Money is just happening to them instead of them happening to their money. And guys, that is so normal, but it doesn't have to be normal for you. And that's why I want you to go download our EveryDollar budget app. EveryDollar not only helps you tell your money where to go with a budget, it also builds a plan to free up extra money so you can pay debt off faster and start building wealth. And the best part, your plan is completely personalized to your life.

1:45:33George Kamel:It's the same advice that you would get if you call the show. And it's right in your pocket. So don't keep living normal. Go download the EveryDollar app, answer a few questions, and get your plan today.

1:46:02Dave Ramsey:Roman and Jennifer on the debt-free stage in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions. Hey, guys, how are you?

1:46:09George Kamel:Better than we deserve.

1:46:10Dave Ramsey:I love it. Where do y 'all live? Jackson, Tennessee. Jackson, Tennessee. just up the road. Well, welcome. Good to have you guys. Thank you, sir. And how much debt have you two paid off? $154 ,000. I love it. And how long did that take you? 23 months. Good for you. Whoa! That's quick. And your range of income during that two years? I went from$148 ,000 to about$154 ,000. Good. What do y 'all do for a living?

1:46:36George Kamel:I'm a teacher. And I'm a district manager for a local convenience and QSR destination.

1:46:44Dave Ramsey:Excellent. Very cool. What kind of debt was the$154 ,000? Boy, it was one car, one credit card, and 11 student loans. Wow. Did you sell anything to do this? Because$75 ,000 a year? Everything.

1:46:58George Kamel:People thought we were going crazy. You sold the car? We did not sell the car. We had enough equity, and we decided, and she loves the car, so we decided to keep it. But we went through and realized that we had a whole bunch of stuff in the house that we didn't need. Okay. What were some of the big ticket items you guys sold? A couch, a chair, just a bunch of furniture items. We had multiple living room sets and had one and a half living rooms. We had accumulated a lot over the years and never really gotten rid of anything. So we thought it was time to let someone go.

1:47:28Dave Ramsey:Okay, but there wasn't any$15 ,000 or$20 ,000 items. No, not at all. Okay. So most of this was cash flow through your income.

1:47:33George Kamel:We picked up, both of us picked up second jobs. He was door dashing and I worked at a tea restaurant. Wow, look at you.

1:47:41Dave Ramsey:And we cut our expenses to the bone. I can tell. Yeah. Because, I mean, you made$150 ,000, but you paid off$75 ,000 a year and paid taxes. Mm-hmm. Gee. And ate food and stuff. On occasion.

1:47:53George Kamel:We ate at home, Dave. Yeah, I'm telling you. We quit the restaurants. I'm telling you. People thought we were weird.

1:47:59Dave Ramsey:Because you were. We were. Because normal's broke. You don't want to be normal. You want to be weird. That's right. All right, guys. So how long have y 'all been married?

1:48:07George Kamel:It'll be 20 years in May.

1:48:08Dave Ramsey:Okay. But two years ago, something happened. What happened that cut this loose? Well, it was about two weeks before our 40th birthday.

1:48:16George Kamel:She's four days older than me. You married an older woman. I did marry an older woman. That's right. Wiser. Yeah. We were doing our taxes for 23, and we realized that we had the best year we'd ever had, and we had nothing. Nothing left. It was all gone. And so I just thought, you know, I got a very good year-end bonus and decided, you know what? This credit card is gone. We're going to get rid of it. And so I paid off the credit card, and it took us a couple months to really kind of get on track with the entirety of the lifestyle after we paid that credit card off. How did you plug into the Ramsey stuff?

1:48:51George Kamel:Well, through my company, it actually offers a smart dollar program.

1:48:55Dave Ramsey:Oh, your company offers our stuff? Yes, absolutely.

1:48:58George Kamel:What company? I work for Dodge's Chicken.

1:49:01Dave Ramsey:Oh, yeah, okay.

1:49:02George Kamel:Great. And so we have the smart dollar program, and I'm a very big advocate of it. We have monthly meetings at all my stores, and every time we have one of those meetings, we play a little Dave video, and we watch some of the stuff and try to get them engaged in the program so that hopefully we can help not just do this ourselves, but share it with the other folks that we're working with.

1:49:21Dave Ramsey:Way to go, man. Now you're the poster child.

1:49:23George Kamel:You've actually lived it. I love it. Your story is the most inspirational part to them. They're going, this guy did this plan. I'll do it too. We need a Dave video.

1:49:29Dave Ramsey:We need a Roman video. Wow.

1:49:32George Kamel:But it's been a great blessing. God has been with us the whole way.

1:49:37Dave Ramsey:So that showed up at your company about the time you guys made this decision?

1:49:41George Kamel:A little bit before, but I didn't really dive in until about that window when I realized that we had the option.

1:49:46Dave Ramsey:When you looked at the tax return and then you paid off the credit card, you go, okay, I'm going to do that Ramsey stuff at work. Yes. Okay. Because for those of you who don't know, Smart Dollar is our program that companies buy as an HR benefit for their whole teams. So like U-Haul, Costco, all their employees have been through our smart dollar program or had it available to them anyway to go through and learn how to get out of debt, be on a budget, all the stuff we teach. So, wow, man, way to go. Proud of you. Thank you. Very cool. How does it feel to be free?

1:50:16George Kamel:Weird. I had to change my perspective because...

1:50:22Dave Ramsey:How long ago were you 100 %? You're debt-free everything but the house now. Yeah. Correct. How long ago were you debt-free everything but the house? Do you remember? December 20th. No, I'm talking about before. Like when you first got married. We weren't. No. So you've never been. This is the first time in our adult lives. You've had debt for your whole lives.

1:50:39George Kamel:We were the ones who kept those student loans around like a pet. We thought it was just something we were going to hang on to for the rest of our lives. Just make the minimums and let it ride. Yeah, unfortunately.

1:50:48Dave Ramsey:Oh, yeah. So you come out of school, get married to student loans. So you've been the whole time with debt. Yes. Up until 23 months ago, you turn it on and now you're debt-free. Yes, sir. Wow, that's so cool.

1:50:58George Kamel:Did you guys have a goal of we're going to do this in under two years, or was this just you guys went so hard you didn't realize it? We watched the video, and any time that I would make a bad decision, he would remind me, he would say cheetah, and I would have to stop. We had to watch out for the cheetah. We had to watch out for the cheetah. From Dave and FPU. That was the key word, was cheetah. That's burned in your memory after watching those videos. Yes. Cheetah! Cheetah, and I'd know what he was talking about, and I'd have to refocus. I love it. We took FPU in the fall of 24. I just want to shout out our director, Bonnie Droter.

1:51:31George Kamel:She was awesome. She really helped us out.

1:51:33Dave Ramsey:Very cool. Very cool. All right, now that you've done it, you sacrificed really deep. I mean, you went hard in the paint, man. I mean, this is hard. Was it worth it?

1:51:45George Kamel:Absolutely. We were just discussing on the way up here. We almost don't even know how to make decisions based on what we want to do. It's always been what we had to do. Yeah. And so it's going to be a big paradigm shift for both of us, figuring out how we do, how we live our lives at our direction at this point. Because it's always been just doing what we can to get by.

1:52:04Dave Ramsey:And so it's changed a lot for us. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. What I want to do instead of what I have to do. That's incredible. So what will you do? What's the first big thing to celebrate?

1:52:15George Kamel:Well, Dave, the first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to go play some golf. I like it. Because I gave up golf right after I picked it up. Okay. Because I realized that was the first thing I'd get cut. Yeah. And so we cut the golf. So I'm going to pick up golf again. This is our fourth time here being in Ramsey Solutions, and every time we've seen them doing these, and it just really inspired us to, hey, that's just, it's all about the little things in life. And so we don't have to do a big, big thing to celebrate. We're free, we're here together, and this is the start of something new for us now.

1:52:44Dave Ramsey:Amen. Amen. So, Jennifer, who was the spender? Who's the saver?

1:52:49George Kamel:I'm the spender.

1:52:50Dave Ramsey:Okay, me too. Yes, I'm the spender.

1:52:52George Kamel:He's definitely, he's my nerd, and I love him.

1:52:54Dave Ramsey:So now that you're free, can you relax a little bit and enjoy it a little bit?

1:52:59George Kamel:I can. I'm going to go get me some cozy air sheets now. Yes. Rachel and I talk about those. They're the best sheets I've ever owned. I'm excited. That's all I've talked about.

1:53:10Dave Ramsey:Are they still advertising with us? Oh, yeah. They're fantastic. Okay. No. Actually, we're going to get you a set. Yeah. We're going to take care of it. We'll spare you. George will take care of that. I'll make sure it happens for you. If they're an advertiser, I can get you a set of sheets. Dave can just make it happen like that. Just like that. Not for the kids, though. I think you ought to celebrate, man. I mean, this is good. I love this. This is great. If they get a shout-out, they'll at least give you some sheets. 32 million people just heard this. That's fantastic. Way to go, you guys. I'm proud of you.

1:53:43Dave Ramsey:And you brought the kiddos. And what are their names and ages? Have them come up and join you. All right.

1:53:47George Kamel:We got Caitlin, who's 19. Kayla, who's 18. Sorry. And then Carrie, who's 10.

1:53:54Dave Ramsey:Okay. And they survived this two years of sacrifice.

1:53:58George Kamel:They did. We caught their senior years with it, so it was tougher for them than it should have been. But Caitlin has cash flowed her first year of college, so she did not sign a loan her first year.

1:54:08Dave Ramsey:Love it. Where's she in school? At Freed Hartman University. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Very good. Okay, perfect. Well, congratulations, you guys. We're proud of you. You're heroes. Look at this family. This is a family that's free right here, man. They are free. Change that family tree. They are free. They busted it. I mean, you busted it. $154 ,000 paid off in 23 months, making$148 ,000 to$154 ,000. They didn't do nothing except get out of debt. Man, that's impressive. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Guys, ready? Three, two, one.

1:54:44George Kamel:We're debt-free! We're debt-free! Yeah! Woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo!

1:54:51Dave Ramsey:Yeah!

1:54:51George Kamel:I love that. Yeah!

1:54:53Dave Ramsey:Incredible. That's how it's done, ladies and gentlemen.

1:54:56George Kamel:And they're getting two EveryDollar subscriptions and some sheets from Cozy Earth.

1:55:00Dave Ramsey:Man, they won big today. Yeah. Well, you have to make sure that all that connection happens and get this done. Who needs game shows? Just come to your debt-free screen. That's how you win bigger out here. Get games and prizes.

1:55:23Thank you.

1:55:50George Kamel:Hey, George Kamel here. So you're thinking about buying or selling your home. It's exciting, but there's a lot to think about and all those decisions can feel overwhelming. Well, here's the good news. You don't have to tackle the process alone. Ramsey's Real Estate Homebase is the place to find all of your free tools and resources for help to get prepared to buy or sell your home with confidence. You'll find calculators, start to finish guides, a podcast, and even an in-depth video course hosted by yours truly. What's not to love? So if you're ready to take the next steps toward your home goals, go to ramsaysolutions.com slash real estate.

1:56:22George Kamel:That's ramsaysolutions.com slash real estate.

1:56:37Dave Ramsey:Our scripture of the day, 1 Peter 5, 10, and the God of grace who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm, and steadfast. Theodore Roosevelt said, courage is not having the strength to go on, it is going on when you don't have the strength. William is with us in Birmingham, Alabama. Hi, William, how are you? I'm excellent, Dave. Yourself? Better than I deserve. What's up?

1:57:09George Kamel:So I've got two kids in college. I'm going to get them out, both debt-free, but one of them is going to go on to med school, and I don't have that money set aside.

1:57:23George Kamel:Okay. Looking for some directions and some advice. Okay. What's the conversation been like with them? Did you promise them, hey, I'll cover your undergrad, but the rest is up to you? no there was never that that promise one way or another i mean we've we've talked about it and they are willing to take on the the debt and of course i don't want to see them take on the debt

1:57:49Dave Ramsey:nor do i want to take on the debt i wouldn't for sure um if they want to do it it's of course up to them. They're grown at that point.

1:58:01Dave Ramsey:Well, I mean, we have talked to more than 20 people over the last several years that have gone to med school without any student loan debt, and they've use several different methodologies. The first thing is to get over the idea that you have to go to the one school that accepted you that happens to be the most expensive school in the freaking world. Because when you go in to sit down with your MD, no one asks where you went to school. You ask, can you fix my broken body? That's what you ask. Can you help me heal? That's what you ask you don't ask i honestly i've one of my good personal friends is my personal physician i have no idea where he went to med school and i've known him 15 years i don't care he's going locally yeah i don't care so the point is i want him to go where the least expensive possible med school That's thing one.

1:59:06Dave Ramsey:Thing two is look into what are called MD-PhD programs. And not all med schools have them. Some of them that have them are famous, like Duke, very difficult to get in. But if you can get into the Ph.D. program, you become an employee of the university and then med school is free. But you're working as a T.A. and working on a Ph.D. as well while you're working on the actual M.D. And so it's a complicated process. But the bottom line of it is you get med school free because you're an employee. and that's how the programs work. Those types, and it falls generally under fellowship programs, those types of things.

1:59:59Dave Ramsey:So I want to learn about that. I want to look at that. And an obvious one that is not necessarily popular, but that is obvious and everyone knows about, but not everyone elects, is the military will pay for it if you join the military.

2:00:14George Kamel:Got you.

2:00:16Dave Ramsey:And, you know, but you're going to give up a few years of service to the military in return for... After graduation. In return, after graduation and after you're an MD, you're going to serve as, you know, in the medical field within the military. You're going to serve your country that way for a while because your country paid for your education. But you can go free. That's the ways that I know of. George, do you have any other methodologies that you can go and not take on the debt?

2:00:42George Kamel:Similarly to the military, there's one called the National Health Service Corps, and it's similar where you serve in an underserved community after graduation. And they'll cover your tuition. But that's a reimbursement, isn't it? They'll provide scholarships and there's loan repayment options. But the scholarship route would be the one to go, obviously, to go debt free. So the key is doing a ton of research, picking the cheapest school possible, and then doing your best to cash flow it. And they work part time if they can. And if you want to pitch in to help cover that, you can. But you're under no obligation.

2:01:12George Kamel:So I wouldn't feel guilty for it. But you're going to help them come up with a plan. That's the best thing you can do.

2:01:19Dave Ramsey:got cash that you can throw out to help them get through and you want to do that there's nothing wrong with that um if you can find room in your budget or you know room in your asset base or something to help them and you want to do that that's okay there's nothing illegal or or immoral about that or even against the ramsey plan i don't mind a parent paying for grad school if that's what they want to do and you have the money but i would i would coach you william as the dad not to going to debt for your kid to go to school under any circumstances. No parent plus loans, no single time I would do that.

2:01:54Dave Ramsey:And here's the problem. We automatically assume I'm going to go$250 ,000 in debt to go and get an MD that I'm going to become an MD and I'm going to make a lot of money as an MD. Those are negative assumptions because everybody that goes to med school doesn't graduate. Same with law school. We see a lot of that. Some people don't make it out. And you know what does graduate? Whether you graduate or not, those loans are still there.

2:02:18George Kamel:No contingency of, well, if and when you graduate, then you can pay us back.

2:02:22Dave Ramsey:Yeah, it's nothing like that. And so, you know, try flunking out of med school and having$150 ,000 worth of debt. That'll piss you off. That's a bad plan. Oh, or come out and, you know, the type of medicine you want to serve in is, you know, been taken over and socialized, and it's very difficult to get a job making over 80 grand, and you could have made that driving a diesel mechanic, and you wouldn't have been$250 ,000 in debt. So, you know, you don't want to go there. That's not how we want to build this out. So we don't build this out on, oh, I'm automatically going to make$400 ,000 a year for the rest of my life.

2:02:59Dave Ramsey:No, you're not. There's no automatic nothing. All right, Carrie is with us in Spokane, Washington. Hi, Carrie. How are you?

2:03:06George Kamel:Hi, good. Thanks for having me.

2:03:08Dave Ramsey:Sure. How can we help?

2:03:10George Kamel:um so i we accepted placement of a two-week-old little foster baby very unexpected as we had closed our license a year prior but she um was directly related to our adopted kiddo um so we're just feeling really discouraged and because our plan came to a halt then um and now we're kind of this was back in november now we're kind of picking up the pieces and just wondering for any advice. Why did your plan come to a halt

2:03:40Dave Ramsey:with a two-week-old?

2:03:43George Kamel:Well, we... Because I needed a leave of absence from work. And I still was making an income because we own our own business. So I'm still working, doing some work from home. So... Okay, so you gave up your job

2:03:58Dave Ramsey:to take in a foster child.

2:04:01George Kamel:I didn't. I still can have my job. But I'm having a hard... So we own our own business. So I can go back to, I have gone back to work already, just only three to four days a week. And it's just really hard finding that family balance. Does the state of Washington pay anything for foster care? Yeah, they do. Yep. Which is helpful. How much? It's just less. It is for her because of her needs. It's like around$1 ,400 a month.

2:04:30Dave Ramsey:But you were making a lot more than that.

2:04:32George Kamel:Yeah, but I am still making some. I work from home and I go in a few days a week. It's just with her needs and the lack of child care, the balance is just hard. So what is the timeline on this foster care?

2:04:48George Kamel:I probably won't know. I mean, it's going to be a while, at least 18 months of her age. And then actually at 18 months, if she's still with us, she can go into daycare full time. So that will be helpful. And it's because they don't take spots. There's not very many spots for infants in my area.

2:05:05Dave Ramsey:so um but i mean a two-week-old so it sounds like the parent is gone yeah yeah so the the

2:05:15George Kamel:likelihood we have her will be a few more years if and then after you know we just don't know what will happen but we felt really obligated to take her in like we wanted to and it's so special But I just feel like our flight, we were doing so good.

2:05:33Dave Ramsey:Yeah, there's a direct cost to this call on your life. And you chose the call, you answered the call, and with that goes the cost.

2:05:45George Kamel:Yeah, I just feel so guilty going in more than I probably could go in one more day a week. So this is not a financial question. You just want to be there more?

2:05:54Dave Ramsey:No, it's a financial question. She cut her pay substantially to take on a foster care that's$1 ,400 a month. Now, there's a problem. But you just have to accept that that's what I chose to do. You can't say it's so special and not take the math with it. The math goes with the special. That puts us our The Ramsey Show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.

2:06:25you