Your Money Isn’t the Problem—Your Plan Is

10:45George Kamel:I am good. How are y 'all?

10:47Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

10:49George Kamel:Okay, so my husband and I have found ourselves in kind of an interesting position where we differ in opinion at baseline on which route to take. So we have a condo in California, and we are currently renting it out. It's not on the market for sale, but our tenants have expressed interest in purchasing it from us because they are looking for a home to buy. What's it worth? It is worth between$375 to$399. Okay.

11:27Dave Ramsey:All right.

11:28George Kamel:So we are not financially free. We're currently in baby step number two, nor are we currently receiving an ROI on our rental yet. So we wanted to know, is our best overall path to sell this place, or should we keep renting it out?

11:46Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Well, I can tell which one you want to do. That's good. And by the way, you're right. You're right. You win the argument. So let's talk about this for a second. If in your situation, what do you owe on the condo?

12:00George Kamel:We owe$309 ,000.

12:02Dave Ramsey:Okay. So let's pretend that you didn't own this condo, and you had$100 ,000 stacked in the middle of your kitchen table. And you said, okay, honey, we should go buy a condo in California and put$100 ,000 down that won't rent for enough to pay the payment. Both of you would look at each other like you've got one eye in the center of your head and say that's the dumbest idea I ever heard. Right?

12:30George Kamel:Right. I agree.

12:32Dave Ramsey:You did not buy this condo as a rental. It's a leftover from a former life before you moved to Sioux Falls, isn't it?

12:42George Kamel:That is correct. Yeah. Because nobody would do this on purpose. It was a rental.

12:46Dave Ramsey:Right. If you were going to buy a$400 ,000 condo, you wouldn't buy it in California when you live in Sioux Falls. You'd buy it in Sioux Falls. Right. And you would buy one that actually gave you an ROI. So there's just so much about this. There's like six reasons to sell this and none to keep it.

13:02George Kamel:Long distance landlords that are losing money. Nothing about this sounds fun to me to keep around as a toy. Right.

13:10Dave Ramsey:So why does he want to keep it? He thinks real estate's the answer to all your riches.

13:15George Kamel:He thinks that in time, the return on investment will be worth it.

13:20Dave Ramsey:Nope.

13:20George Kamel:And I understand that, you know, renting, but the market in California with rent, it's California is the problem for me because the market there, even for landlords and renting is, it's terrible. And, but he thinks that property value is just going to go up and there's always going to be renters wanting to rent it.

13:46Dave Ramsey:Property values and real estate do not go up fast enough to offset a bad idea. Yeah. And this is a bad idea. I love real estate. The larger portion of my net worth is real estate. So I'm big on real estate. I want you to own real estate. But this real estate, you don't own this real estate. It owns you. Right. This is a crappy situation. Yeah. Sell it, sell it, sell it, sell it. You win the argument, Maggie. But you even knew that before you called. Okay.

14:16George Kamel:I did, but, you know, and I mean, and it's not a ha-ha, I win, you lose. No, I'm not saying that, and you're not. I agree. And, yeah, because, I mean, I agree, you know, with the payment properties and rent it out. Yeah, get out of debt.

14:31Dave Ramsey:Build you a big old pile of money. Pay off your house. And with your next pile of money, if you want to go buy you a nice condo there in Sioux Falls, Sioux Falls is a great market. Go buy you a nice condo in there and pay cash for it and watch it go up in value, and you'll make money every month. And, yeah, then real estate is a good investment. But right now, you've got freaking consumer debt. And this thing barely breaks even if everything works perfect.

14:54George Kamel:Yeah, that's if everything works perfect. And it doesn't. And I think we were kind of handed a nice little out-of-left-field type of situation. Yeah, get-out-of-jail-free card. The tenants actually want to buy it. Will they buy it at the market value? you? We haven't. Well, this is super early in the conversation. But what we were told was that their looking price is well over, you know, what the condo is worth on the market.

15:27Dave Ramsey:Right. Okay. So here's the thing. I love real estate and I'm telling you, this is a bad deal I would get out of it if it was me. Number one, I don't do long distance landlording. The most of the time people get into that, it's by default, not by plan. And that's how you got into it. Number two, the thing is not ROIing. Number three, you would never buy it again if you didn't own it today. If you had this amount of money piled in the kitchen table, you would never go do this deal. Not in a million years. No sane person would. It's a bad deal. And so sell it, sell it, sell it. If this renter doesn't buy it, put it on the market and sell it anyway.

16:08George Kamel:Get rid of it. And number four, you guys have a bunch of debt to pay off. So you need this money to clean up the mess. So how much debt have you got? Yes. So total... Not counting your house. Not counting my house, 108.

16:23Dave Ramsey:Oddly enough, you're debt free.

16:25George Kamel:Yeah, that's what I was like. We could, you know, if we sell this place...

16:29Dave Ramsey:And that's like$4 ,000 a month in payments. and yeah. You talk about an ROI,$4 ,000 a month in payments. How long ago did you move out of this condo?

16:41George Kamel:We moved out in the summer, July.

16:45Dave Ramsey:Oh, good. So you can still take personal residence, no capital gain on it.

16:50George Kamel:Right. It hasn't been, yeah, it hasn't been a rental for that long. Right. You need to get rid of it before you lose that capital gains right. Okay.

17:00Dave Ramsey:Yeah, because you could take all this money that you can get on the table and pay zero taxes and throw it all at your debt and have a$4 ,000 a month change in position. This is a no-brainer. That ROI is much faster. It's not like, ha-ha, Maggie, I'm right. But Maggie, ha-ha, you are freaking right. I mean, my gosh. I guess her hope is to play it back. And she gets to say, well, Dave said. Well, and George said. I don't know if that's going to work. All of America said. I wish you the best. The math says. It doesn't even matter what my opinion is. What matters is the math. This is just dumb math.

17:33Dave Ramsey:It's dumb. You would never put$100 ,000 in an investment in three states over that breaks even. And if something breaks, you go in the hole. While you have$100 ,000 in consumer debt. It's almost as if you borrowed money on a credit card in a car to go buy this condo. That's the way the balance sheet looks. Crazy. Don't do it. Don't do it. Get rid of it. Bethany's in Salem, Oregon. Hey, Bethany.

17:59George Kamel:Hi.

18:00Dave Ramsey:How can we help?

18:02George Kamel:I'm just looking for ideas for something I can do from home. I'm a full-time stay-at-home mom and wife of a four-month-old. And just needing some extra income for some different things. And was wondering if you guys have any ideas to throw at me that I could try.

18:17Dave Ramsey:George has got much better ones than I do.

18:19George Kamel:Yeah, are you looking for something completely remote that you can do during nap times, that kind of thing? Well, if she's taking a nap, she's not working. Of course. Well, not you. That baby. So here's the problem. Everybody wants the remote job they can do from the couch in their spare time. But the thing is, the stuff that actually makes money. Even if it's all day long, I can keep my baby here. And my husband works remote, too, upstairs. Okay. So between the two of us, the baby can be between us doing something or nothing. What was your former career? I did CNA for about four years. Okay. Is there not some telemed stuff that's pretty lucrative?

18:57Dave Ramsey:Telemed?

19:00George Kamel:I haven't looked into that too much. The few things I've tried looking remotely as I've researched a few things, I don't have enough experience at the resources I've looked into, or I don't have enough degree because I don't have any college, like formal education or anything. I just have my CNA license. And the different places I want X amount of years of, you know, working or they want this degree plus this or different options. So it's been kind of annoying to try and find something. So if you can't work as a CNA remotely, you're going to have to shift completely to something else, which would be like virtual assisting, consulting, bookkeeping.

19:38George Kamel:So you might need to pick up some new skills if you want to do this from home. Oh, I'm totally fine with picking up new skills. My caveat is I can't find someone that will take me without. We've got a side hustle quiz to help you out. Go to RamseySolutions.com slash side hustle. It'll start to give you some ideas on things you could do, and I would try a few.

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20:59George Kamel:See website for full details.

21:13Dave Ramsey:Are you sick and tired of working so hard but having nothing to show for it? Feel like a rat in a wheel? Run, run, run, run, run. Get nowhere, have a heart attack and die? Yeah. Well, you don't have to live that way. Our EveryDollar budgeting app helps you find extra money every month, builds you a personalized plan to get out of debt so that you can become wealthy and outrageously generous. We're going to walk you through the whole Ramsey plan on this app. It's just 15 minutes. You're going to find thousands of dollars in hidden margin to get you started. You'll feel like you have a raise. And then we teach you how to not be normal.

21:46Dave Ramsey:Be weird. Live like no one else so later you can live and give like no one else. start the EveryDollar app for free in the App Store or Google Play. Courtney's in Seattle. Hi, Courtney. How are you?

21:58George Kamel:Hi, good. Thank you. Good.

22:00Dave Ramsey:How can we help?

22:02George Kamel:Thank you for taking my call. My husband and I are on baby step two, and we have$86 ,000 in debt that we paid off next year. My husband is almost 40 and is worried about the fact that we only have a pension right now towards retirement. At our age, how hardcore do we go towards retirement once our debt is paid off? And so do we still do the 15 % even though he has that pension?

22:26Dave Ramsey:You weren't putting money in retirement two years ago, right?

22:30George Kamel:No, we have not been able to put anything except we just have the pension.

22:33Dave Ramsey:And so just after you start working on the debt, then you decide to worry about retirement? That's weird. I agree. Okay. So, I mean, that's not logical. and here's the thing we're talking about one year you guys are going to be multi-millionaires if you follow this process through

22:50George Kamel:you're not 60 you're 40 you got another 25 years at least of a working career that's plenty of time to build wealth especially if you're debt free think about how much margin

22:59Dave Ramsey:that will free up for the rest of your life hey put have him you and him get on the ramsey solutions website jump on the calculator for retirement and put in 15 of your household income. What's your household income?

23:12George Kamel:This year, we just both got good raises. This year it'll be$200 ,000.

23:16Dave Ramsey:So$30 ,000,$2 ,500 a month for 20 years. And so that means you're going to start in two years, right? So it's 65, that's 20 years, from 45 to 65, right? $2 ,500 $100 a month in good growth stock mutual funds. We suggest you put it in four types, growth, growth and income, aggressive growth and international. You've probably heard all this. Yeah. And when you invest in that, put that in the calculator and you're going to see$2.5 million. Wow.

23:53George Kamel:Okay. That makes it sound much better. That's if you start a year from now.

23:56Dave Ramsey:Yeah. That's if you wait until you're 45 years old because you followed this process and got out of debt. And guess what? you can't put$2 ,500 away right now because you got$86 ,000 freaking dollars in debt sucking the bone marrow out of your life. Right. Yeah, so let's get the patient healed, and then let's turn the offense on. Okay. That makes sense? Thank you. That's very helpful. Yeah, I know that gives me a lot of hope for sure.

24:23George Kamel:Because what most people do, Courtney, is they go, well, I'll put 3 % in my investments, and I'll try to throw some at the debt, and they end up doing nothing because there's no progress being made.

24:31Dave Ramsey:On that basis, with$200 ,000 and$86 ,000, I want you debt-free in under 18 months.

24:39George Kamel:We will definitely. We're able to sell the truck in June when my husband gets a promotion and he gets a work vehicle. So that will be$25 ,000 gone in June. That will be huge. I already sold my car. I'm driving a 20-year-old Camry at this point. So we're definitely making progress. This is the first month where we're really able to shove everything we have towards it. So I just started working full-time as a stay-at-home mom until my youngest went to kindergarten. And here's the thing. You're not going to only make$200K for the next 40 years.

25:12Dave Ramsey:Right. Or 20 years. 20 years. You're going to get raises. We did that with no raises. So you're not going to end. If you follow through and do exactly what we teach you to do, get out of debt, put 15 % away, save for your kid's college, get the house paid off, usually in about seven or eight years. and then you load up on this, you're going to have between$5 and$10 million.

25:34George Kamel:Then you're talking about maxing out retirement accounts, catch-up contributions after$50, and so you guys are going to be just fine if you follow through with this plan.

25:42Dave Ramsey:Yeah, but it all starts with getting rid of the debt.

25:45George Kamel:Okay. Okay. Thank you so much. We've never been so motivated as you are now. We've tried to do this multiple times, and this is the only time we've actually started to succeed.

25:54Dave Ramsey:You're going to do it. You're going to do it. I can tell because I can tell you're going to do it. you got it all over you you're going to go do it and i want to hear from you when you're debt free and i want to hear from you when you're baby steps millionaire because you are on your way way to go i'm proud of you hope is in greenville south carolina hi hope what's up

26:13George Kamel:hi dave i'm good how are you better than i deserve how can i help awesome so my husband and i are going through financial peace university and are on baby step to. We've paid off our first debt in the snowball and want to continue with gazelle intensity, but we're expecting our first child in May. Yay! Thank you so much. We have four and a half pay in the emergency fund to act as a buffer for those no bills, but not knowing the full cost is difficult to plan for. After baby, we will become a single income family in ministry. What are some practical ways for us to approach our emergency fund and the debt snowball?

26:53George Kamel:and also becoming a single-income household after the baby is born.

26:57Dave Ramsey:What do you make?

26:59George Kamel:Current cash take-home between the two of us is$55K. What do you make? And I make$35K of that in cash take-home.

27:11Dave Ramsey:So you're planning on this baby being skinny?

27:15George Kamel:I hope so. You're the breadwinner right now.

27:19Dave Ramsey:He's making$20K take-home. You're going to cut your income by 60 %? I want you to be a stay-at-home mom, but this is not a good plan.

27:27George Kamel:Because what you just told me is, how do we live on$1 ,600 a month? So part of that is my husband's job provides us with housing and pays all of our utilities. While you live at the poverty level. Yes. Okay. Again, I don't know that you can do that on$1 ,600 and build wealth.

27:50Dave Ramsey:82 % of America's pastors are bivocational. They have two jobs. Because of what we're describing here. So your husband's going to be taking a second job. Okay. I don't want you living at the poverty level. That's not my dream for you. And believe me, I love pastors. I love ministry. And I love people that are called to the ministry. I spent last week with three of my favorite pastors. They were my buddies hanging out with me. And I just love them. And I'm a big fan of everything you're doing and who you are. I'm a Christian. I support with my tithes our church and make sure that they feed their people there where we're not having people on food stamps.

28:31Dave Ramsey:And you guys are right there, though. And you're just getting started in the ministry, right?

28:40George Kamel:Yes, sir. Yeah.

28:42Dave Ramsey:So I think the two of you have got to talk about what God's call on your life looks like while you're doing this. Does it involve you going back to work? I hope not. I don't like that one. Does it involve him taking an extra job? Does it involve his ministry playing out in a different way for now? Because first goal is take care of your own household, not the flock. his first job your first job is feed that household that baby and that rent and you guys this is tight kiddo this is really really tight doesn't factor in the debt payments because you

29:18George Kamel:guys still have a little mess to clean up and so that just scares me to go day one we're going to

29:22Dave Ramsey:live off 1600 while trying to pay off debt so i'm not going to tell you that that's a good plan because it's not. And the blessings of the Lord have no sorrow added to them. Hmm. So what part of this whole thing is a blessing? Because I sense sorrow in the future here. I think there's wonderful things happening, a baby, a young marriage, a call to ministry. There's a lot of wonderful things happening, but the mind of man plans his ways, but the Lord directs his steps. So you've got to lay out a game plan here. Work like it all depends on you and pray like it all depends on God. All right, God, I know you called me to this ministry.

30:05Dave Ramsey:So God, how are you going to fund our family? Show me what I need to do as a work. What harness do I need to put my shoulder to so that I can get this done? What tents have I got to make, if we want to use the Paul analogy, so that I can prepare for my ministry? But, you know, I'm not even with pastoral housing. I'm not going to consign you to the poverty level and call that God's call on your life. I'm not going to do that.

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32:21Dave Ramsey:Chris is in Seattle. Hi, Chris. How are you? Hey, Dave. How's it going? Better than I deserve. What's up? Good, man.

32:29George Kamel:Hey, so my question is, my wife and I, we've been married for about three months. We just bought a house this past weekend at around$1.1 million. Wow. Outside Seattle. It's on five acres, really close to our parents, close to my work. Nice. Nice piece of property that we want to start homesteading on. The thing that's on my mind is before we got married, she bought a home in eastern Washington for about$500 ,000. She still owes, or we still owe about$350 ,000. And it's on about 38 acres of mostly forest with a nice pasture. It was kind of like a COVID buy for her, you know, when things got a little bit crazy.

33:15George Kamel:she wanted a place that she could escape to. The issue is there was a bad plumbing leak because of no heat and burst pipes. So now the home is uninhabitable, and it's costing us about$18 ,000 to$2 ,000 a month. Wait a minute. Did she not have insurance? That's a good question. I never thought about that, actually. I think the thing is the home is pretty run down as it was, so they were planning on gutting it anyway.

33:50Dave Ramsey:Okay, so the value here is the 13 acres, not the lot, not the house. 38 acres. 38 acres, I'm sorry. So you could push the house down and sell the 38 acres? Yes. I just don't know if it's worth what we still owe on it is the problem.

34:08George Kamel:I would find out. Okay. So you don't think it's worth keeping as a potentially long-term investment?

34:19Dave Ramsey:No, it's a money pit. You owe$175 ,000. If you had$175 ,000, let's just pretend you didn't own this, and you woke up in the morning and you said, I found a place we can get for$175 ,000, 38 acres with nothing down, and pay payments on it. you wouldn't do that sure that's what you've got even if you think even if we're underwater on the house right now is what you're saying still try to get rid of it i'm sorry house and acreage we don't think we're underwater do we uh you don't think it's worth even 350.

34:59George Kamel:it's hard i don't think so now because she bought it during the craze where everyone was trying to get out of the city.

35:04Dave Ramsey:Okay. You're not operating on facts. You're operating on feelings. You need to have a real estate agent go out and tell you what this piece of property will bring. Go to RamseySolutions.com and click on Ramsey Trusted for real estate agents and have one of them go out and look at it for you and say, Chris, I think we can get$210 ,000 for this. Chris, I think it's going to bring$110 ,000. And here's why. And then based on that, you can start making some decisions on, but this does not sound to me like it's something I want to own.

35:37George Kamel:The longer you hang on to it, the more money you lose. Because you said you're bleeding two grand a month. Yeah. Just to hang on to it. Interest rate's around 2%.

35:46Dave Ramsey:I don't care what the interest rate is. Yeah. It's an alligator. It eats money. It doesn't produce money. Right. Yeah. Right now, yeah. Yeah, right now. I mean, it's going up in value, I hope, but not lately because the house is rotting down now. It's full of mold and everything else. Right. Okay. Good points. You just got married. You got a wonderful house. You have a wonderful life. Don't let this be a distraction, this money pit. Throw a grenade in the middle of all the good stuff you're doing. Sure. Cut it loose.

36:18George Kamel:It's the definition of sunk cost fallacy. Exactly. It's going to keep dumping money and hopefully get out on the other side.

36:25Dave Ramsey:Andrew's in Cleveland, Ohio. Hi, Andrew. How are you?

36:28George Kamel:Pretty good. How are you, Dave?

36:30Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

36:33George Kamel:I have a CCW, and I carry insurance for that CCW. Me and my wife, we are in Baby Step 2 right now, but we just learned about the insurance Baby Step in the class that we're in with our church. Mm-hmm. And I'm wondering, do I keep it or do I get rid of it?

36:56Dave Ramsey:For those out there that don't know what he's talking about, it's concealed carry. Okay. And so you're carrying a firearm and you're carrying insurance in case, God forbid, you used the firearm and got sued, correct?

37:08George Kamel:Correct.

37:09Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Okay.

37:13Dave Ramsey:Well, there are varying degrees of cost on those things. There's a couple of them that we've looked at. We actually endorsed one for a while. The cost is reasonable. There are some that the cost is unreasonable based on what I think you're getting for it.

37:34George Kamel:I'm paying$25 a month for it.

37:37Dave Ramsey:And what's your household income?

37:40George Kamel:Household income is about$40 ,000. Okay.

37:44Dave Ramsey:That starts to be a lot at that point. So what you have to ascertain is not whether you're going to carry or not, because I think you are going to carry. And the question is, are you going to do that without insurance, meaning that if, God forbid, something happens, you're just going to work through the consequences of that? Or are you hoping to have some—basically, this is lawyer insurance. It buys lawyers. Correct. What it does. Or do you want somebody on your side? So I don't know what circumstances you're in and so forth. I carry every day and I have for 35 years and I don't have the insurance.

38:29Dave Ramsey:And if it was Dave Ramsey, good God, can you imagine the lawsuits? You know, and so my process is if something's going on, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to run instead of shoot. I'm leaving. Okay. I don't I would never you know, I have extra mental barriers to me pulling a firearm out beyond other people. And so you've got to just ascertain your position in that because I'm truly I've done a bunch of training with handguns and a bunch of people that really do know what they're doing. And I love it as a sport. I love it as a hobby. I love it as an American right. All of those things.

39:10Dave Ramsey:but the chances of me shooting someone unless they were killing one of my family members or me would be zero and so I'm just not going to engage those situations so that that lowers my need for insurance you know by my attitude about all of that and so you've got to decide you know what situations are you going to be in what risk are you actually taking and then in making$40 ,000 a year what's worth$300 a year. And you got to make that call for yourself. But I will tell you, and the CCW insurance people that know their stuff will tell you that by far the best insurance you can have is have your brain screwed in if you're going to do this and really have done some training.

39:55And I'm serious, run away from situations.

39:59Dave Ramsey:Don't be, you know, you're not freaking Wyatt Earp. And if you get that stuff dialed in, it changes the need for this, the level of need. But, you know, the people in the gun world say if a round leaves your weapon and hits someone else, whether they're guilty of something or not, it's probably a million dollars. If it's me, it's 10 million. So it'll cost me in legal fees to, not because I'd wrong, not because the law doesn't protect me, not because all the, but it's just the stinking law, the law, the lawyers and the court system are all just set up to screw people. And it's just, it'd be a horrible situation.

40:40Dave Ramsey:So I got to tell you, man, it's not, there's very few things I'm going to invest$10 million in that has a bullet coming off of it. I mean, it's not just not going to do it. So the life of someone I love and I'm going to look at them and go, do I really like them. No, I'm kidding. I mean, if I've got to really protect someone, maybe, but that's scary. Yeah, it's a scary scenario to think about.

41:02George Kamel:But the peace of mind, if 300 bucks buys you the peace of mind right now and you need that, fine. It's not going to make or break your debt payoff schedule at 25 bucks a month. Now, if it was 100 bucks a month, making 40K, that is a serious amount of money. So the goal would be, can we get our income up and eventually sort of have our own insurance policy to help out with this and auto, home, umbrella, all of that. There's other ways you can also kind of stay protected, but outside of a firearm situation where someone sues you because of that, that's a different situation.

41:34Dave Ramsey:I don't know how often that happens, how many a year, but. Yeah, I can't even imagine. It's almost nothing, but wow. It's a scary, scary thing to think about. That's for sure. And it makes lump come up in my throat just to think about the possibility of something like that. This is The Ramsey Show.

42:12George Kamel:Hey guys, George here. Listen, 99 times out of 100, when people say, I don't know where my money goes, it's not a math problem. It's a behavior problem. They're not budgeting. Then they're shocked when their bank account hits triple zeros. Well, here's the deal. Winning with money is about doing the boring stuff consistently. And that includes banking someplace that helps you stop guessing with your money. Like Fairwinds Credit Union. They're not going to fix your habits. That part's on you. But they do support people who are ready to take control of their money. At Fairwinds, you get a high yield savings account with a great rate to help grow your emergency fund, a checking account that won't nickel and dime you, and up to 10 free savings accounts so you can organize your money on purpose.

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43:23Dave Ramsey:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. George Camel, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today. I'm Dave Ramsey. Amber is in Tulsa. Hi, Amber. How are you?

43:37George Kamel:I'm good. Thank you for speaking with me today.

43:40Dave Ramsey:Sure. What's up?

43:42George Kamel:I have been married about 20 years, and 15-ish years of that marriage, my husband was. an alcoholic. And he has his own business, and he was able to maintain that. He is now three years sober. Good. And yes, thankfully. And he is back on track. But in the midst of the chaos, we have not filed our taxes since 2020. And I'm not even sure. In the midst of what chaos?

44:09Dave Ramsey:He was drunk for 20 years. When did the chaos happen?

44:12George Kamel:Well, it really was a downward spiral. It just got worse and worse. He even had a couple of DUIs. So it just kind of reached a peak.

44:22Dave Ramsey:So 20 to 23 was him going to the bottom and 23 to now is coming back out.

44:29George Kamel:Yes, exactly. And now his business is thriving and we're doing really good. This is just like a looming black cloud over us because I know we have to pay the piper. Yeah.

44:41Dave Ramsey:Okay. So the first thing to know is this, and it's very, very serious. Failure to file income tax returns is a federal criminal offense. Yes. Failure to pay taxes is not.

45:00George Kamel:Okay, yes.

45:01Dave Ramsey:Okay. People do not go to jail in America for not paying taxes. They do go to jail, around 2 ,500 to 3 ,000 of them each year, for not filing. So we've got to get that off of you. The number of times that the IRS prosecutes someone who comes out of the cold, off the grid, on their own is almost zero. So you're going to initiate this filing immediately. Okay. I don't want them accidentally finding you in the next 30 days and really screwing up all of the positive progress he's made in the last three years. Yeah. Okay, so go to RamseySolutions.com. Okay. And get one of our tax ELPs, and they will help you.

45:48Dave Ramsey:Typically, what happens is you need to reconstruct the last three years, maybe four, and do the best you can to reconstruct those years and file those, and then all of those taxes will be due.

46:03George Kamel:Okay. And that's another thing. I don't even know that during that time period he kept a very good record. I don't care.

46:10Dave Ramsey:We have to reconstruct something.

46:12George Kamel:Okay.

46:12Dave Ramsey:Okay. The best you can do. You're going to have to pull it together because you need to file something. Okay. Because they're probably not going to look at it. They're probably just going to be happy that somebody just showed up and started giving them money, okay? Right. But that's if you go to them. So do not put this off into the air. Okay. Danger, danger, danger.

46:33George Kamel:Yes, I don't want to go to jail.

46:35Dave Ramsey:Well, it's not you. It's him.

46:37George Kamel:Yeah.

46:38Dave Ramsey:Are you working outside the home during this time?

46:41George Kamel:No. I'm a stay-at-home mom, but I do help him with the business.

46:44Dave Ramsey:I know, but there's no other tax bill other than the profits from the business.

46:49George Kamel:No, no. And you're not an employee of the business? I'm just listed as a co-owner.

46:55Dave Ramsey:Does he have employees?

46:58George Kamel:He has two, but they're just$10.99, so they do their own taxes and everything. Yeah, okay.

47:05Dave Ramsey:Well, I think you're going to find when you delve into this that they're not really$10.99. Okay. Because you have to meet several guidelines to be a 1099 employee, and I've got a feeling these guys don't. 1099, sometimes with entrepreneurs, is I just don't want to file taxes. So I'm going to make the team do it. But a 1099 is for a self-employed person. Your employees are not self-employed.

47:27George Kamel:Okay.

47:28Dave Ramsey:So I don't think. But, again, that's a minor thing. But your tax advisor can tell you about it or your tax preparer can help you figure that out. But you need to get two or three, I mean, three or four years with a Ramsey trusted tax preparer and get it filed immediately. And then if you owe some money, you can put that on a payment plan with them and or use some money you got in the bank and just pay them.

47:54George Kamel:Yeah, and I'm ready to do that. I just want to be in good standing. What's your financial situation now? How much debt do you guys have and what's the income? um we don't have a ton of debt maybe a hundred grand and that is in houses and cars and a little bit of credit card but we're bringing in close to 20 to 30 thousand a month a month net profit or gross um gross there is some like equipment purchasing and paying employees in that amount

48:22Dave Ramsey:yeah okay so so you're probably making five grand a month yeah yeah so sixty thousand dollars a year And I'm guessing in the bad years you might not have made anything.

48:35George Kamel:Yes. It may not be as bad as you think when you actually go to file these.

48:37Dave Ramsey:So that means there's not going to be much taxes on it if you didn't make much.

48:41George Kamel:Okay. That's what I'm hoping.

48:42Dave Ramsey:So, yeah, let's just get all this pulled together and be proactive in approaching the IRS. And I make fun of them and pick on them all the time, but they're actually pretty good to work with in these situations if you come to them.

48:54George Kamel:Don't wait for them to come after you. That's less fun.

48:57Dave Ramsey:You don't want the men in black showing up with a gun, right? But that's, you know, that kind of thing. But that's, yeah. Go, come in out of the cold as quick as you can. Todd is in Lexington, Kentucky. Hey, Todd, how are you? I'm doing great. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? So me and my wife, we're looking to buy a new Harley. How much? It's$50 ,000. You got$50 ,000? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's a$50 ,000 Harley. And you've got$50 ,000 cash? Yes, we do. Okay, all right. Yeah.

49:34George Kamel:We have, well, like$450 ,000 in retirement and$350 ,000 cash or a little more. And I just, you know, I just wanted to retire. And, like, I'm looking to retire in about five years.

49:49Dave Ramsey:She's already retired. And I just want to be, you know, just want to be smart with my money. Yeah, have you gained debt? No, none. What's your household income? About$3.50 to$3.50. I would buy the Harley, but I also would tune up my investments and make sure we're putting a good amount because you're making really good money and you could really stack some cash and buy a lot of things later that you want to buy. But right now you can afford the Harley for sure. Okay.

50:22George Kamel:What kind of vehicles and toys do you have right now? uh really no i mean well i actually do i do have a harley now that's worth about 15 000 i'd probably just sell outright and then uh we have a paid off uh 23 tahoe and a paid off um 22 silverado uh pickup and then i have a vehicle that i use for my business i just i work a full-time job for the federal government, and I'm an electrical inspector on the side, and then I also build houses and sell those.

50:55Dave Ramsey:Do you understand that your motorcycle is going to be your most expensive vehicle now? Right. Your toy. Yeah. Your toy is worth more than your other cars that you drive every day. Yeah, that's one of my—I mean, that's what— And it's going to be worth$15 ,000 when you go to sell it. So just know that going into it. You're going to lose the money, but you've got the money to burn it. Okay, you got the money to enjoy it, and it's not out of line. I might have pause in doing it, but it's not out of line. It's not a, you know, you're not too broke to do it. But I want you to sit down with a Smart Investor Pro and make sure all of your money is invested.

51:34Dave Ramsey:And if you're making$350, you should have more money stacked than what you've got stacked. So I want you to increase your investment goals so that you have got millions later to do stuff with.

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53:49Dave Ramsey:Megan is in Charlotte, North Carolina. Hi, Megan. How are you?

53:53George Kamel:Good. How are you doing?

53:55Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

53:57George Kamel:Love it. I was hoping to hear you say that. That's awesome. I've been listening to you guys for years. So I'm just wondering how it is possible to go from surviving to thriving with a disabled husband

54:11Dave Ramsey:What's the nature of his disability?

54:14George Kamel:He, since he was 19, he has chronic pancreatitis with all kinds of complications that have resulted as a result of that Multiple surgeries and all kinds of things over the years Just making it where he's completely unable to work, you know, reliably It happened when he was 19. He went in for a surgery and came out with an acute bout of pancreatitis, and it's just been downhill ever since then.

54:39Dave Ramsey:Wow. Okay, and what do you do?

54:45George Kamel:I am a human resources manager.

54:47Dave Ramsey:And what do you make?

54:50George Kamel:Right now, take home about$31.96 per month.

54:55Dave Ramsey:Okay. How many kids have you all got?

54:58George Kamel:We have three. We have a 15-year-old and an 11-month-old and a 2-year-old.

55:02Dave Ramsey:Cool. How much debt have you got, not counting your house?

55:06George Kamel:Only about$1 ,600. That's good.

55:09Dave Ramsey:Good. Okay.

55:10George Kamel:Yeah.

55:11Dave Ramsey:That's a good basis to start from. Well, obviously, surviving to thriving is an income issue and an outgo issue. If you spend everything you make, it doesn't matter if you make a lot. And if you don't make anything, that's going to be tough, right? So is it easier to thrive on 36 ,000 or 336 ,000? Well, obviously, 336 ,000, right? So how old are you guys?

55:39George Kamel:We'll both be 40 this year.

55:40Dave Ramsey:Okay. All right. So there's an old book, probably really old. I'm not even sure if you can find it anymore. But I'm more about the thesis of the book than the book. It's called What Color Is Your Parachute? and the book had in it a ton of stories of people who were overcomers and created incomes in spite of physical and even mental disabilities. And the thing that I took away from it was two things. One is a lot of these people, your husband in this case, found a way to, found a workaround to be an entrepreneur and own their own business. And that enabled them to take the downtime that they had to have because of the physical limitations.

56:32Okay.

56:33Dave Ramsey:But the interesting thing about entrepreneurs is that ADHD and dyslexia occurs about eight times more often among entrepreneurs than it does the general public. meaning this, that people with ADHD or dyslexia or any kind of limitation learn their whole life is about a workaround. And oddly enough, that's what business is all about. The definition of an entrepreneur is find a need and fill it. It's a workaround. We've got to find a new way to do an old thing or a new way to do a new thing and figure out a way to do that in spite of all these people and things and crap coming at us. Those of us that start and run businesses, right?

57:18So that's what he, because his mental toughness to deal with the medical limitations that he's had

57:28Dave Ramsey:will actually work in his favor to start a business versus someone who's perfectly healthy. Because he's already got calluses on his brain in this area. Does that make sense?

57:38George Kamel:Very much, yeah.

57:39Dave Ramsey:So to me, that's encouraging. So I'm going to start thinking about what he can do as a business and, you know, how can he delegate some of the things, hire employees and get somebody to do that he's not able to do. Where can we start out of the garage? Obviously, it's not going to be something that's physically taxing on him, but it does have to be something that can come and go because he needs to have some down days, some down hours. Yeah. He can't work a nine to five.

58:09George Kamel:Right, right. Yeah, not reliably.

58:11Dave Ramsey:Right, and you don't want to set up a business that requires him to be present nine to five. That's what I mean by a workaround. So anyway, I'm going to encourage him to find a way to create maybe the most money you guys have ever seen in your life if he happens to strike gold with this. And kind of come at that with that attitude. And really the same thing for you. You're a human resource manager?

58:34George Kamel:Mm-hmm.

58:34Dave Ramsey:And you make$30 ,000,$40 ,000 a year?

58:37George Kamel:well i do i do have um some retirement coming out of that and i do have um like one small insurance coming out of that so there's a little bit coming out yeah but you're not making much money for a hr manager not really and honestly not for the area that i'm in either um the reason that i'm still here is because the people are really wonderful and honey your family needs

58:59Dave Ramsey:money i don't give a crap how wonderful they are we'll find wonderful people elsewhere right now Now we need to double our income. I want wonderful people to pay you twice as much.

59:07George Kamel:Yeah. Okay. So you've got a few levers to pull on here. If he can get something going, you can increase your income. Now we've got some serious margin. Because right now, your expenses are probably$3 ,000 a month. That's what you're taking home. So it's going right back out to the bills. It really is, yeah. Because it seems like we start to build up a few hundred dollars in an emergency fund, and then it all goes away. And then we have to kind of start back over from scratch every month. So we're just not getting anywhere. That's why I've been putting a little bit more into that retirement because I was just terrified.

59:36George Kamel:Like, what if we get to 60 and have nothing to show for it, you know? Well, right now you're doing five good things at once and you're not making progress. You're trying to pay off that$1 ,600 in debt. You're trying to throw some at savings. You're trying to invest. I would just focus on one thing at a time. And for you guys, that's$1 ,000 starter emergency fund.

59:53Dave Ramsey:So my assignment for him is I want him to start a business that in the first year makes$50 ,000 profit and the second year makes$100 ,000 profit. but my assignment to you is go find a job that doubles your income.

1:00:05George Kamel:Okay. Yeah, I think we're going to have to do that. And I think those are doable.

1:00:09Dave Ramsey:They're doable. I believe in you.

1:00:11George Kamel:Yep. Okay. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

1:00:14Dave Ramsey:You call us back as you're going on this fight now, and we'll help you. Hang on. I'm going to send you a book called Building a Business You Love. It's my latest number one bestseller. It's how to start and run a business, and we'll help him with that. But so, George, when I first found that statistic that dyslexia in particular is, I forget the number, it's way more prevalent among entrepreneurs than business owners than the general public, like light years. Wow. Like 30 times or something. It's crazy. I can't remember the number, but it was just mind-blowing. and then as we sat and talked about it and thought about it i talked to a couple guys that got dyslexia that because we work with 10 000 small businesses in entree leadership and they're like hey man my whole life's a workaround everything i do i have to figure out a way to do overcome an obstacle that is just normal for you other people and y 'all are just lazy and so i go get it you know because he said everything i have to figure out a weird way an abnormal way of doing everything And he goes, so it's natural to me.

1:01:16Dave Ramsey:And he was making a lot of money. He's running a big business. But he said reading is a challenge. He goes, I'm really glad you put stuff on audio book, you know. But he goes, it's a workaround. How are we going to do this in any way? And my whole spirit has been reformed with the recognition that I have to do things differently than the average person. And that is a secret superpower in business. There's a grit to that. Oh, there's a grit to it. And there's a part of your brain that functions to create workarounds that no one else has. You know, I don't have to do the workarounds he has to do.

1:01:56Dave Ramsey:I can just walk up to it and touch it, you know, but he has to go around the barn three times. And so it's, but it's, there's a lot of data coming out on this that that's a lot of the reason for the successes. The number of people that are, you know, on the functioning end of the autism spectrum and so forth. And so it's interesting to me that what is perceived as a disability is an ability. There's opportunity there. There's opportunity there. And so to me, that's really encouraging. I've never faced something like that personally. Faced plenty of other challenges and stupid butt stuff I've done to myself.

1:02:35Dave Ramsey:But when I meet people like that, they bust through whatever it is and become a big deal. It's inspiring. Our friend John O 'Leary was burnt heavily as a child, and the movie just came out, Man on Fire. And he's created an entire career out of telling people they can do something. Using his story. Yeah, using his story.

1:03:06Thank you.

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1:05:29Dave Ramsey:It's like crazy. The little add-ons will get you, boys and girls. All right, not with us. Hey, David is in Los Angeles. Hey, David, what's up?

1:05:37George Kamel:Hey, guys. Thanks so much for taking my call.

1:05:39Dave Ramsey:Sure. How can I help?

1:05:41George Kamel:I wanted to ask a question. My wife and I have been given an opportunity to move to Alaska for a job that sounds like it's going to be much better for our family in terms of time, getting to spend time together. But I'm a little nervous because it's technically a title lower than the one I'm currently working. I'm wanting to make sure I'm not giving up too much opportunity, but also want to improve my family's life in the immediate situation. So kind of get a little guidance on that.

1:06:10Dave Ramsey:What is your field? Why does title matter?

1:06:14George Kamel:Yeah, so I'm a marriage and family therapist. I'm currently working as a clinical director at a treatment center down here. What's the new title? So the new title would be a clinical manager rather than clinical director. It does come with a little bit of a pay raise, about$6 ,000 a year, so nothing too crazy, But just want to make sure that, you know, I don't know if it's a horrible idea to be taking a lower title in the long run. Well, is your cost of living going to be much lower in Alaska versus L.A.? So it is. Essentially, we would be able to live for a bit cheaper out there, and we'd be making more money.

1:06:56George Kamel:Plus less taxes. It feels like a no-brainer.

1:06:58Dave Ramsey:Yeah.

1:06:59George Kamel:Well, it's cold, though.

1:07:01Dave Ramsey:It's definitely cold. That's the tradeoff.

1:07:02George Kamel:The country will be a little different. And there's bears. Yeah.

1:07:06Dave Ramsey:There's also a few bears.

1:07:12Dave Ramsey:So I am not an expert on the clinical field. I wish Dr. John Deloney was sitting here with me. Sorry, George. It's okay. He has a PhD in counseling, and he knows all those people. He knows all that stuff. He knows the titles. My perspective looking in from the outside as a layman is I don't think there's two people on the planet that will notice your title change. I don't think it matters Okay I mean Henry Cloud's one of my best friends He's a clinical guy One of the most famous in the world And others I've known in that world Because we've been around that world for 30 years Because we deal with so much mental issues Around money stuff So we've become friends with that world And I have never In 35 years I've never had the occasion to go Oh that guy is a manager Not a director on the, you know, he runs the dadgum place or he doesn't run the dadgum place is the way I look at it.

1:08:05Dave Ramsey:So that's an outsider outside the industry looking in. So I'm not sure how valuable my opinion is, but I personally have never been someone that collects titles. I collect the ability to get things done and get paid for it. And so it sounds like that's what you're doing. You're being a little bit more utilitarian rather than esoteric, right?

1:08:26George Kamel:That's true. Yeah. Are the responsibilities the same? Yeah, I mean, responsibilities are essentially exactly the same. I'm still running the place. I still have the same oversight, just about the same amount of employees. Okay, let's fast forward.

1:08:39Dave Ramsey:Let's try to change. Let's put the moccasins on the foot for the fun of it. You've been doing this a while. You know the world. So if someday you were a regional director of eight different mental health centers, and someone came to you for an interview, and they both had done the exact same job, would you care what their title was?

1:09:00George Kamel:I can't say that I would. I wouldn't. I think that I would be able to say this is the same thing.

1:09:04Dave Ramsey:Exactly. You would look at it and go, you know, just in Alaska they named it this, and in L.A. they named it that, and it's the same job description, same duties, same responsibilities. Crud, the Alaska one may have a bigger budget that you're managing. I don't know. I mean, there could be actual more qualifiers. The only other thing I'd throw out is I would ask for more money. Alaska generally pays a premium to get people to live there. Yeah. And you're getting a little bit of a premium. And I wouldn't ask for a sad amount. I would just say, hey, I was talking to my financial counselor, and he said he's not sure this is a good idea.

1:09:42Dave Ramsey:Is this the best you can do? And just see what they say. The worst thing they can say is, yeah, that's the best we can do. And you go, okay, I'm coming. Right? Or they go, oh, no, we could actually do$20 ,000 more. And you go, oh, that one silly little question just made me$15 ,000, you know?

1:09:59George Kamel:Or maybe it's a kind of sign-on bonus or extra relocation. And don't do it with a belligerent personality.

1:10:05Dave Ramsey:That's not what I'm talking about. I'm just saying, just go, hey, I'm just wondering. I know Alaska sometimes pays a premium. And is this all you all have in the budget? Is there anything else you can do? Yeah. And asking a gentle, open-ended question, you might be blown away with how much they add to that$6 ,000. And it's a general negotiating posture to take anyway, folks, on anything. is that the best you can do? And it's like, oh no, I can do a whole lot more. It's like, I really want to get rid of this thing. And then you just shut up and let them speak. Let them talk.

1:10:36George Kamel:You don't over talk. Being really quiet. It's a good negotiation tactic.

1:10:38Dave Ramsey:You ask a question and shut up. First guy speaks, loses. So again, worst case is they say, no, this is the best I can do. Sounds like a fun Alaskan adventure. Let's go. I like, I mean, let's do it. Why not? Worst case is you don't like it and it's too cold and you go somewhere else later. nobody said you had to stay there for 25 years you're just going up there take a job jordan is in nashville hi jordan how are you hello hi hi hey dave my mom has been listening

1:11:09George Kamel:to you since i was in the third grade and i'm 41 if that makes you feel old i was already old i

1:11:14Dave Ramsey:was already feeling old and you help thank you brother we're fossilizing dave here soon yeah no she was she was on today briefly i think before before a lot a lot of people got on back when i I had hair. Yeah, I got it. Okay. What's up today, man? My question is, I am 41 years old, and I have got my house and everything paid off.

1:11:34George Kamel:I don't have any debt.

1:11:35Dave Ramsey:Mom's proud.

1:11:37George Kamel:Yep. And I've got a nest egg that I've been saving for a while. And basically what my question was, I do have, I am working towards a pension, and I'm 15 years in towards retirement on a city pension. And my question is, would you use all the capital I have now to make an investment in a real estate and business that I've been kind of wanting to do? Or would you just focus on investing in smart stocks and stuff that will further secure retirement?

1:12:13Dave Ramsey:Okay, if you're sliding everything, all the chips to the center of the table on one deal, I would not do that. I don't do that. But I do buy real estate, and I like real estate. What are you talking about doing?

1:12:25George Kamel:Well, I've been wanting to do like an event center. I've been wanting to do an event center in my town and kind of have like all-in-one where it's kind of a kitchen, bar, event center for weddings, birthdays, events. I've been kind of messing around with that for a couple years.

1:12:40Dave Ramsey:In Nashville?

1:12:41George Kamel:Doing a job on the weekends. No, not in Nashville. I live about an hour and a half from Nashville.

1:12:46Dave Ramsey:Okay, which city? Cookville. Okay, all right. Because in Nashville, I would just tell you there's 26 of them. I mean, it's like, how do you get the next country music star's attention? A waiter. But in Cookville, what's the event centers like there? How many of them are there?

1:13:03George Kamel:There's a few event centers. I was actually one of my hometown of Sparta. Now we're getting small.

1:13:10Dave Ramsey:Is there enough population there to support one?

1:13:14George Kamel:You know, the local, they don't have a whole lot going on, But the local places that they do, for example, since I've been doing events, every time I try to call and book one of these places, they're six months out. They're four or five months out. So it seems like all the rental and being used places are doing well. And then our local bars, there's only a few of them. It seems like they do real well, too, as far as the amount of people that's always in them. What's the cost going to be on this if you did it right? Well, I've been looking into it. So, like, right now I've got, you know, a pretty good chunk saved up.

1:13:45But the properties I've been looking into, there's a couple different options.

1:13:49George Kamel:There's some out there right now that you could buy turnkey ready pretty much for around$350,$400, which is, I think, really high for our area.

1:13:58Dave Ramsey:You know what I would do? I would lease one of them for five years and start your business and run it with the option to purchase it and put a price on it and buy it later if this works. If it doesn't work, you're just a tenant and you ran your lease out. a lease with an option to purchase. That reduces your risk. Instead of dropping$350 into it, drop$50 into it, and let's go try your dream without it turning into a dadgum nightmare.

1:14:48We'll be right back.

1:15:13Dave Ramsey:Cole is in Boise, Idaho. Hi, Cole. How are you? Hi, Dave. It's really good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up?

1:15:22George Kamel:Hey, so my wife and I are both doctor of audiology students, and currently, right now, we don't have any debt. We've been following you for quite a few years now, and so we've maintained no debt through school, through our undergrad, everything like that. and we are now having to make a decision just because our scholarships have kind of run out. The money that I saved up when I worked and she went to school is running out. And so my question to you is, is would you take on a student loan if it made sense, or would you do all that you can to just not take on any student loans at all? Preface with that, we do have money saved up.

1:15:58Dave Ramsey:I'm sorry, you're already doctored in audiology, or are you just studying?

1:16:04George Kamel:So we're studying. So my wife is a third-year student going into her fourth year, so she has one year left, and I'm a first-year student, so I've got three years left.

1:16:13Dave Ramsey:Okay. All right. And how does that world work as far as work goes? As a third-year student, can she work in the field while she finishes up?

1:16:25George Kamel:She is. Both of us are. Oh, good. Both of us have part-time jobs in the field, so we're both working part-time. We're taking advantage of any school scholarships that we can. But, I mean, our school costs about$50 ,000. So we made$50 ,000 last year, but that was when I was working full-time. This year, I think we're projected at like$30 ,000.

1:16:48Dave Ramsey:And what does it take for her to finish the next year, her last year?

1:16:53George Kamel:So it's going to cost us$30 ,000.

1:16:56Dave Ramsey:Each?

1:16:58George Kamel:Yes.

1:16:59Dave Ramsey:Okay. And you've been able to get scholarships for none of it or what?

1:17:05George Kamel:For all of it up until now. Oh. And so that's where there's a possibility that we could still – Why did the scholarships go away? So she's going to – it's called her externship, so her clinical rotations. So there's no scholarships there. And then I'm in the current application period for scholarships, but nothing's been granted yet. And when I look at the numbers, I'm like, if I don't get any scholarships, We're going to have to make a decision on get them to our savings, take out a student loan. Oh, wait, wait, wait.

1:17:32Dave Ramsey:How much savings do we have?

1:17:36George Kamel:So my wife and I have a brokerage account with$50 ,000, and then we currently have savings for$20 ,000.

1:17:44Dave Ramsey:So if it's worth borrowing for, why is it not worth using your savings for? I agree with that.

1:17:51George Kamel:My wife thinks that we should keep our brokerage account the way that it is because it made us 20 % last year.

1:17:56Dave Ramsey:So we should borrow money on a student loan to put money in a brokerage account. That's dumb.

1:18:02George Kamel:Well, that's why I called to make sure that I wasn't, you know, misunderstanding. You're not misunderstanding.

1:18:08Dave Ramsey:You should pay cash and finish your degree. By the way, this is a license to print money. You know that. Say that again? Audiology. You're going to do really well.

1:18:21George Kamel:Oh, yeah. Well, and that's where what her take is, is that leave everything there, take out the student loan, and then when she gets out and making$90 ,000 to$100 ,000, we'll just pay it off. Yeah. I have just done everything except that and said no debt whatsoever. We're going to pay cash or we're not doing it.

1:18:37Dave Ramsey:We're going to pay cash or we're not doing it. You have the money. No, we do not borrow money on student loans to invest.

1:18:46George Kamel:Right. Well, so then one other question with that. So because I have three years left, when we get to the point that we would be forced to take out a student loan— You're not. She's going to be making 90.

1:18:59Dave Ramsey:Well, right. She has one year left and then starts cashing checks. Right. She can pay for you to finish. Right.

1:19:10George Kamel:Okay. Well, I just—like I said, I wanted to make sure I understood that correctly. So you got 70K. It's going to cost you 60 for both of you to do another year, right? So you've got$10K left. Then she's working, so now we can cash flow the next$30K for you. Right. So that would be the game plan. And that's the option that you would do.

1:19:27Dave Ramsey:Yes. Absolutely. A hundred times over. Zero times, I'm going to tell you, take out a student loan ever. But particularly when you've got a way at your fingertips to not do it, and you're just doing it to keep your investments intact, which has the same effect of having borrowed money on a student loan to invest it. No, that's—

1:19:45George Kamel:And just because it did 20 % last year does not mean that's going to happen again this year. It could go down this year, and then she's going to be real heartbroken.

1:19:51Dave Ramsey:Yeah, we could bomb Iran, and the stock market could drop. That's a wild thought. Who knew that would happen? Yeah. All we knew is what was going to happen is all we knew. So, yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And to assume that, George is right. I mean, the last two years, 25 and 26 were 23 to 26%. Both of them were incredible years. But that's not normal, folks. and you don't make your decisions based on a 20 % rate of return because we don't tell people you're going to get 20 % average. We just know what actually happened in the last two years. So eesh, eesh, eesh. No, we're not borrowing student loans.

1:20:30Dave Ramsey:Matthews in Hartford, Connecticut. Hey, Matthew.

1:20:34George Kamel:Hey, how's it going? Thank you for taking my call. Sure. I maxed my 401K out like three, four months left in the year, putting the 15 % in like you guys tell us it's a good idea too. And my company has an after-tax account that I can continue to put a percentage of my check in after taxes that rolls into my 401k Roth.

1:20:53Dave Ramsey:Do you have a mortgage?

1:20:57George Kamel:I do have a mortgage.

1:20:58Dave Ramsey:Put it on that. Don't put it in that. Pay your mortgage off.

1:21:02George Kamel:That was the only question I had.

1:21:04Dave Ramsey:Okay, it's easy. Yeah, we tell people when you're in baby steps four, five, and six, four is 15 % of your income going into retirement, five is kids' college. Any other money we can find above living life well, we're going to throw out and pay off the mortgage next. Because what we found, Matthew, the data tells us that the typical millionaire in America, and we've done the largest study on them of anybody, has a paid-for home and a healthy, muscle-bound 401k account. You're going to have both if you go this route. Now, when the house is paid off, you can go back and play some of these other games.

1:21:35Dave Ramsey:You can max out. You can, you know, you get to this year be 24-5. If you're over 50, you could do, or over 60, you could do$2.50 extra. Do all those kinds of games. I do every bit of that. I do everything I can do. I'm 66, but I don't have any debt and hadn't had in 20, 30 years. So I'm always maxing that stuff. I don't have any mortgages.

1:21:58George Kamel:It's a baby step seven item to start. Item, exactly. Going above and beyond all of that. But yeah, you got the backdoor Roth IRA for incomes too high for the normal, and then you get the mega backdoor Roth 401k, which is what he's talking about. where you can do the after-tax contribution and an in-plan conversion. And we have that at Ramsey. Very few people do it around here. Because they're not Baby Step 7. But at that point, it's a good option to have. But again, to your point, I'd rather have the house paid off first before I'm adding extra to retirement. Because likely he's going to be a multi, multi, multi-millionaire in that retirement account.

1:22:29George Kamel:So in the meantime, until we get there and can access it,

1:22:32Dave Ramsey:let's have a paid off home. because that is an element of the typical data point of the typical person in their first one to five million dollars of net worth. Now, beyond that, people do other things. They don't borrow to do it. But beyond that, they're doing more than just 401k in a paid for house. Other rental properties, they've got businesses, they got other things to run a net worth up above that. But so a backdoor Roth, explain that, George.

1:23:00George Kamel:So a backdoor Roth, if your income is too high to contribute to an IRA, traditional Roth, you can do a backdoor Roth IRA, which is when you use after-tax dollars contributed to a traditional IRA, and then you pretty much immediately roll it over and convert it to a Roth IRA. Just did mine the other day. Oh, nice. I do it every year. Before tax season rolls around. Yeah, it's great. And you can do a spousal as well. And so you can, now this year, 7 ,500 bucks. And for you guys, even more.

1:23:27Dave Ramsey:We're old. 85, 86. Woo-hoo! 8 ,600 now. It's a good day for Dave. So I just moved another$17 ,000. That's fantastic. And all the growth on that for the rest of my life will not be taxed, and it will not be subject to inherited IRA rules, not taxed to my heirs.

1:23:45George Kamel:So when the grandkids get this money, they're not going, oh, I've got to pay taxes on it. Nope. Papa Dave did it for you guys.

1:23:50Dave Ramsey:Papa Dave done a Roth. So there we go. You can thank him now. So everything in my name is 66 or 65 is in a Roth. And so that's the route we're going because it keeps no minimum distributions, no required minimum distributions at 72 and a half, 74 and a half.

1:24:05George Kamel:Which statistically, you and Sharon are going to live into your 90s if you made it this far. That's a lot of time.

1:24:11Dave Ramsey:My plan is well beyond that.

1:24:12George Kamel:I think sheer willpower and spite, Dave will outlive us all. That's my greatest fear.

1:24:16Dave Ramsey:I'll be on here spreading hate and dissension long after the rest of you are now.

1:24:20George Kamel:104 years old. Dave's still in the air.

1:24:22Dave Ramsey:Get out of debt. Sell the truck.

1:24:23George Kamel:I've always said he's the Methuselah of personal finance.

1:24:25Dave Ramsey:Sell the truck. Thank you.

1:25:05Dave Ramsey:Welcome to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studios. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, George Camel. Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today. Melissa's in New Orleans. Hi, Melissa. How are you? I'm doing well. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up?

1:25:23George Kamel:Um, well, my question is I'm considering separating, um, my income from my husband. We've been married for 13, over 13 years.

1:25:38Dave Ramsey:Why?

1:25:40George Kamel:Um, well, okay. For most of our marriage, I started off mostly at home, and he went to work. We had babies, and I would manage the household, manage the finances. He knew he wasn't very good with money, and he let me do it. My dad taught me a little bit, and my dad even gave me, like, the baby steps book in, like, our first year of marriage.

1:26:16Dave Ramsey:So I kind of managed it all. So now you want to separate your money. Why?

1:26:23George Kamel:Well, when I went back to work full time, I'm a school teacher, and about five years ago, once our youngest got into kindergarten, well, it was actually first grade. But it just got too hard for me to manage, you know, the finances, the household, the children, full-time work, especially teaching. And I started asking him, like, hey, I need help. And I felt like the biggest stress was always managing the money, and that was because we didn't agree on that area. Like, I'm always trying to save, and I was always trying to get us out of debt and everything. and he really didn't agree with the Dave Ramsey Methods.

1:27:08George Kamel:So, Melissa, is he misbehaving with money? You haven't answered the question. What problem does it solve for you to separate your money? Well, I feel like it would eliminate us fighting if he just spent his money.

1:27:23Dave Ramsey:No, it'll cause him to be broke and you to be broke, too. He'll drag you down with him. Right now, you're the only thing holding this together.

1:27:31George Kamel:But it's just really hard on the marriage Like if that's like our

1:27:35Dave Ramsey:No, the money isn't hard on the marriage The selfishness is hard on the marriage

1:27:42George Kamel:But he's worked really hard

1:27:44Dave Ramsey:Oh, bull We all work hard Call the wambulance He worked really hard So that gives him permission To constantly be at odds with his wife Instead of coming into agreement And deciding on what our future goals are together Bull crap That's selfishness.

1:28:00George Kamel:He wants me to agree with him. I know.

1:28:02Dave Ramsey:That's selfishness.

1:28:04George Kamel:You don't agree to stupidity. And so separating the finances is not going to give you a better marriage. It'll just brush the problem under the rug.

1:28:11Dave Ramsey:Makes it worse.

1:28:12George Kamel:It'll separate you guys further. Okay. Yes, sir.

1:28:16Dave Ramsey:Yeah, because he's going to burn all of his in the corner. And then you're going to be trying to run the whole family on yours.

1:28:22George Kamel:And then are you going to split expenses and split the mortgage and split the utilities like roommates? I considered, like, doing, like, you know, I make significantly less than him. Okay, let's try that.

1:28:37Dave Ramsey:You do not have a money problem. You have a marriage problem. So let's not fix a marriage problem with a money solution. Let's fix a marriage problem with a marriage solution. You guys need to go see a marriage counselor. You need to sit down with your pastor, and it's time for you all to put this marriage together. the first time completely that you ever have. Before, you were the mommy taking care of the little boy. Now the little boy's rising up and saying, I want to vote, and I don't agree with everything you're doing, and the two of you can't find a language to reconcile in your relationship on your disagreements.

1:29:15Dave Ramsey:That's not a money problem. That's a marriage problem.

1:29:18George Kamel:Yes, sir.

1:29:19Dave Ramsey:So you guys get on the phone and get your marriage counselor booked. and it's not what Sharon and I went to marriage counseling uh Melissa when we were 10 been married 10 years we've been married 43 now um we went we went broke when we were seven that's seven years and so three years later all the pissed off came to the surface from going broke because we about killed each other and uh but what we got at marriage counseling was not like we're broken you need to fix us I looked at it as like I hired a tutor I hired a personal trainer to give me skills and knowledge about marriage that I didn't have from the home I grew up in.

1:29:58Dave Ramsey:So I need you to teach me something to be married as a better husband. I need you to teach her something to be married as a better wife and teach us language and processes to get through arguments like this and come to a conclusion. And so I just looked at it as I hired a personal trainer. I hired a tutor, you know, and I'm trying to get knowledge tools in my belt because I didn't know how to do it. I didn't know how to fix it by myself. And y 'all don't know how to fix it by yourself. But it's not separating the money and you go off to your corner and he goes off to his corner. That's going to make it worse.

1:30:33Dave Ramsey:So I would say the two of you, not because you're broken, not because you're all screwed up, but you have some things you need to learn that you've never learned in 13 years about how to talk to each other, how to, Bible says, submit yourselves one to another, how to put the other person first. That's what I was talking about, selfishness. And, you know, I've been doing this 43 years and it's still hard because I'm still right and she's still wrong.

1:31:04Dave Ramsey:But I told her if she leaves, I'm going with her. So there you go. But that's it. I mean, you know, it's hard, you know, to navigate through this. You guys, you and Whitney had a bit of an advantage in that you started out as financial peace test tube babies here. That's right.

1:31:20George Kamel:She worked here at Ramsey, and I thought if she's good enough to work for Dave Ramsey, she's good enough for me. Probably too good for me. And I was right.

1:31:26Dave Ramsey:Well, that's true.

1:31:27George Kamel:It was easy. But I have found, Dave, people who get married, they're not unified on money, but they go, well, he's just bad with money. It's a personality trait.

1:31:34Dave Ramsey:And then when I start picking on him, she says, oh, he works hard. Oh, give me a break. I think he works too hard to be this broke and selfish and childish. Oh, there we go. So there's one. Boom. Drop that mic on it. Yeah. So, folks, here's the thing. What we found in 35, almost 40 years of helping people build wealth, get out of debt so that they can build wealth, build wealth so that they can change their family tree and be outrageously generous. You know, there's a couple things we're sure of. Very few, if almost none Of the married couples That build wealth Do it separately

1:32:14Dave Ramsey:When we did this Largest study of millionaires We said how many of you Work together with your spouse And how many of you work separate 83 % said we work together The general public says Less than 50 % says we work together But the general public's normal And normal sucks, it's broke You don't want to be normal and so you know if you want an advantage to building wealth it's learn to work together with your spouse be unified in a desired future as our friend henry cloud says and then you say okay how does this discussion we're having affect that future you know you're wanting to buy something we can't afford it affects that future you want to be irresponsible with money it affects that future we've agreed that this is the future we want we've got an agreed upon desired future yeah and anything that affects that negatively, hey, we need to look at it.

1:33:04George Kamel:It's a wealth multiplier to be on the same page financially sharing the account. That's just the facts of it.

1:33:10Dave Ramsey:Melissa, all the years of doing this show, your call is the number one call we get. How do I get my reluctant spouse on board with your Ramsey stuff? How do we get an agreement in our house? It's the number one call we get.

1:33:29Thank you.

1:33:58George Kamel:It's a short-term sacrifice for a long-term gain. But do you know what's really hard? Working your whole life and never having anything to show for it. Never having the long-term gain. Just feeling broke and stressed and maxed all the time. And sadly, that's the hard that most people choose. Listen, you're capable of transforming your situation and living a life of freedom, but you need the right tools to do it. Like our Every Dollar Budget app. In minutes, it'll build you a step-by-step plan that's tailored to your money situation. And every day it finds ways you can free up extra money in your budget so you can get rid of your debt and actually build wealth.

1:34:36George Kamel:So make the choice today. Short-term sacrifice, long-term gain. Choose the tool to help you get it done fast. Download the EveryDollar app and start for free today.

1:35:04Dave Ramsey:Today's question of the day is brought to you by Y-Refi. If defaulted private student loans are wrecking your budget, it's time to deal with them. Y-Refi helps you refinance defaulted private student loans with a low fixed rate payment based on your ability to pay. So you can stick to a budget and work the plan. Go to yrefy.com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y-R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. Might not be in all states.

1:35:31George Kamel:Today's question comes from Nikki in Idaho. What is a dividend stock? My coworker has two houses that are completely paid off by using dividend stocks to increase her income by several thousand dollars per month and then reinvesting that income. Bull. This sounds too good to be true. Is it possible to do this? That's a lie.

1:35:51Dave Ramsey:is she trying to sell you a course on this yeah i mean you've got a let's let's put it this way

1:35:55George Kamel:dividend stock versus a growth stock is just a company using their profit sharing to pay you a

1:36:00Dave Ramsey:little bit instead of reinvesting that so if i own stock at home depot and home depot makes a profit they have two options one is reinvest it back into the company and grow home depot and then the value of my stock might grow. Or they can pay the profits out in the form of dividends. A dividend stock is a company that is mature. It's not in a growth phase. It's in a mature phase, and they pay out all their profits. So it's an old big dinosaur company, like an Alcoa aluminum. Johnson and Johnson. Johnson and Johnson, Procter and Gamble, okay? This type of thing. So dividend stocks do not have as good a rate of return as regular stock that's growing in a company.

1:36:48George Kamel:Because you're basically pulling it out.

1:36:49Dave Ramsey:It's not going to grow anymore. Because you're pulling the profit out. You're cashing in your chips at the end of the game. You're saying, I'd rather get the money now and not continue to let it grow. And so you didn't, you know, so for instance, if the stock market went up 20 % in one year, that is like last year went up 25 % in 25, okay? But there was not a dividend payout associated with that at all. Dividends had nothing to do with that. Dividends were companies made a profit in 2025 and they paid it out, or they didn't, to their stockholders. So point being, your coworker did not pay cash with the dividends off of a stock.

1:37:29Dave Ramsey:So let me just give you an idea. If you had$100 ,000 invested and your dividend stock paid out 10%, that'd be$10 ,000. And that would be a huge.

1:37:39George Kamel:Usually it's like 3%. Massive payout.

1:37:43Dave Ramsey:So for them to get enough to buy two paid-for houses, they'd have to have millions of dollars in dividend stocks.

1:37:51George Kamel:Which in that regard, it didn't happen from dividend stocks. It happened from investing over a long period of time. They got the money somewhere else. Yeah.

1:37:58Dave Ramsey:So a dividend stock is a dumbed-down way to invest. It's not magic. A low-risk way to invest. It's not a magic trick. It's just math. But it's not even good math. I mean—

1:38:08George Kamel:I'd rather have that money continue to grow.

1:38:11Dave Ramsey:I'm worth several hundred million. I'm 65. The number of stocks I have that are dividend stocks are precisely zero. I want a better rate of return than that.

1:38:18George Kamel:I mean, we've heard you say on air for 30 years now, good growth stock, mutual funds. Yeah. Not dividend stock.

1:38:24Dave Ramsey:Yeah. And the reason is the returns. It's pretty simple.

1:38:27George Kamel:And those dividend income, that's taxable.

1:38:29Dave Ramsey:So let me reread it. What is a dividend stock? We just explained that. A coworker has two houses that are completely paid off by using dividend stocks to increase her income by several thousand dollars per month. Okay, that did not happen. And then she said, and then reinvesting that income. Yeah, well, that's the income off of the houses. Okay. You got the two houses paid off by using dividend stocks. So my point is, if you did that, you either cashed in the stock or you have millions and millions of dollars to buy a$100 ,000 house or$200 ,000 house. So that's not – something's wrong that doesn't pass the smell test.

1:39:08Dave Ramsey:You're not going to follow her strategy and do this. Yeah. At least in this lifetime. It's still a good question. It's good to educate people on what a dividend stock is. That's why we took the question. And there's nothing wrong with dividend stocks, but it's just an ultra conservative, lower rate of return way of messing with the stock market.

1:39:23George Kamel:It just makes you feel good to get that little check in the mail every quarter.

1:39:26Dave Ramsey:Yeah. And it typically is done by folks that are retired and they would place a chunk of money so that they could get a steady income off of these steady income companies. But again, it's a reduced rate of return.

1:39:40George Kamel:And it takes a big bankroll to make some serious money off.

1:39:42Dave Ramsey:In order to pay off two houses, you know, there's something. We've got a chicken-egg problem with this thing, with this story. So this is somebody that read something on TikTok and then lied to you. All right. Julie is in Omaha, Nebraska. Hi, Julie. How are you?

1:39:58George Kamel:I'm good. How are you, Dave?

1:39:59Dave Ramsey:Better than I deserve. What's up?

1:40:02George Kamel:So I have an interesting question. I am interested in buying a new camper. We currently own one worth about maybe$11 ,000 or$12 ,000. But my husband works on the road out of state for a wind and solar farm company. And I'm a stay-at-home mom with our first son. He's one years old.

1:40:24Dave Ramsey:You live in the camper?

1:40:27George Kamel:He lives in a camper.

1:40:28Dave Ramsey:Oh, he lives in the camper.

1:40:30George Kamel:I live in our home that we own in Nebraska.

1:40:33Dave Ramsey:And how long is she gone? Every week? all the time i would say 90 of the year what does he make he makes about last year it was

1:40:47George Kamel:i think 80 000 but we had just had my our son last year and he took off a great deal of time so what is your long-term plan what's your long-term plan with his career because that

1:40:59Dave Ramsey:doesn't sound sustainable.

1:41:02George Kamel:Right. His father and family work for the company also, and they have made a living off of that. His mother owns, or his mother's side of the family owns a business here in town, and that's another option, that he could work there. What is his plan to do 10 years from today? Just, I guess it's to make money for our family, to aspire to be millionaires.

1:41:33Dave Ramsey:He's gone 90 % of the time and you have a brand new baby. And he makes$80 ,000 a year and he lives in a camper.

1:41:40George Kamel:So how does a new camper fix this? Sorry, say that again? How does a new camper fix this? Are you just going to live on the road with him? Live together, yes. And you can't do that in the current camper? No, it's$11 ,000. She has a one-year-old. No, it's a small camper that has like a bunk bed in the back that is much small for any clothes or anything for his needs. Okay.

1:42:07Dave Ramsey:Okay, so if you buy a$30 ,000 camper, now he has a$50 ,000 job.

1:42:13George Kamel:Correct. Yeah, that would be true. I do make a small income. it's about$2 ,200 $300 a month from the VA I was in for about 6 years and was medically retired and we also make

1:42:30Dave Ramsey:I appreciate that

1:42:32George Kamel:we also make an income from our previous home that we own the mortgage is about minimum$500 we pay$800 and we rent it out for$13.50 a month where is that home? also here in town with us. Okay. I would simplify your life, truthfully. I don't know if it's worth keeping this rental with the mortgage on it, and you have a mortgage on your primary home that you're living in? Correct. What's left on the mortgage? It's about$2 ,000. We just bought it December of the year prior. So are you going to keep this while you live on the road? That would be the question also. So, yeah, I don't know if this is a long-term job, if we're going to stay for just a couple more years so that we can pay it off.

1:43:25George Kamel:We're 26.

1:43:26Dave Ramsey:Okay. I'll give you a prediction. Five years from today, you're not going to be doing this. Okay. Because what you're doing, the gypsy life is very strenuous. and little babies on the road are, you know, it just doesn't work for most people. Some people do it, but very, very few. There's a reason people have a home and settle in for the mental health of the relationship and the quality of life for the kids and all that. For a short period of time, it's an adventure. But after that, it becomes drudgery. So I think this camper question really comes down to a career question of what's he going to do in the next stage of his life and when's that stage going to begin, ready, set, go.

1:44:12Dave Ramsey:If it's going to begin sooner rather than later, then no, we don't need to move up in camper. If you move up in camper, you have to pay cash and it's going to become worth nothing by the time you finish this adventure.

1:44:48Dave Ramsey:Hey, guys. Dave Ramsey here. Every day on this show, we help people work through real money problems and figure out what to do next. Now, you can get that same kind of help anytime with Ask Ramsey. Ask your money question and get answers built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision or just want something explained, Ask Ramsey is here to help. It's fast, simple, and free to use. Go to RamseySolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's RamseySolutions.com.

1:45:40Dave Ramsey:Well, we wish we could get to every call and question here on the show. Some of them we're glad we don't get to. So if you have a money question and you want an answer for your situation, head on over to the website and use Ask Ramsey. Ask Ramsey is our free AI tool that's built and trained on the proven Ramsey principles. To say the least, we have a bazillion hours of this show that we downloaded into AI, and so it knows how to answer the question exactly the way we would have answered it. You get the same answer we'd give you right here on the show. So ask your question today at RamseySolutions.com for free, or just click the link in the description if you're listening on a podcast or YouTube.

1:46:20Dave Ramsey:It's here, it's big, and it's popular. Ask Ramsey. Charles is in Fort Myers, Florida. Hey, Charles, how are you? Dave, how are you doing? Better than I deserve. What's up? Wonderful. Let me tell you about my situation here.

1:46:35George Kamel:So I am 34 years old. I just sold my first home to move back in with my parents. I have about$70 ,000 sitting in an S &P mutual fund. And my 401K is in a good step. And the only debt I have is a car note. What's my next step? Why'd you move back in? I was originally from Pennsylvania. They moved down to Florida just to get back in with my family. I took a layoff, didn't make the money I was making, so it seemed like no better time.

1:47:06Dave Ramsey:So you don't have a job?

1:47:07George Kamel:No, I currently have a job, and I start a new job next, in like two weeks.

1:47:13Dave Ramsey:Oh, good. Okay. All right. And so you're debt-free. You have money in an S &P, right?

1:47:22George Kamel:I have money in an S &P. The only debt I have is a car note. Okay.

1:47:26Dave Ramsey:How much do you owe on the car?

1:47:28George Kamel:$18 ,500. Okay.

1:47:31Dave Ramsey:Well, what we teach is to be debt-free and have an emergency fund of three to six months of expenses and then start talking about buying a house.

1:47:38George Kamel:Okay. So I guess how long should I hang out until I just get real, real aggressive on the car note? I mean, you don't need to be aggressive. I would sell enough from the S &P 500 brokerage account, pay off the car today, cash out more to cover your emergency fund, and then whatever's left becomes your down payment. on your house. Start stacking on top of that.

1:47:57Dave Ramsey:What are you going to be making at the new gig?

1:47:59George Kamel:They're quoting me starting anywhere from 70 to like 95 at the commission-based sales.

1:48:04Dave Ramsey:If you live there for four or five months and you just try to figure out the neighborhoods and you're just doing all that kind of thing, that's not the end of the world. They probably like having you around. But I just don't think it's probably a good thing for your personal life and your personal future to be living in Mommy's basement at 34 for very long.

1:48:23George Kamel:I agree. That's why I wanted to see what you would advise.

1:48:27Dave Ramsey:Yeah, I would put a time on it. I'd say 120 days, 90 days, put a date on it and say, I'm out by that date. I'm paying off the car today. I'm going to move, like George said, enough over to a money market account that is three to six months of expenses of what it takes to operate if you had rent and have that as your emergency fund. Then you've got the balance for a down payment. And just add to that down payment during that 120 days with this great income and no payments in the world.

1:48:51George Kamel:And don't increase your lifestyle because you get comfortable because you don't have housing expenses. That's what most people do when they move back in with mom and dad is they go, well, I'll save a lot of money by doing that. And then I ask, well, how much have you saved this year? They go, uh,$2 ,000. I go, well, yeah, that plan sucked. So actually put this amazing income to work by setting it aside for that down payment.

1:49:10Dave Ramsey:Yeah, I'd stack another 10 or 20 grand in there right quick during this 120 days on top of what you've got after the car is paid off and after the emergency fund. and then look for a, you know, get you a nice little condo of some kind and get started back out in the real estate world and get yourself a place. And it could be near mom and dad. You still see them a lot and all that would be great. But I would set up a separate life in 90 to 120 days if I were in your shoes. And that's how we answer questions here. If I were in your shoes, what would we do? Ryan is in Virginia Beach. Hey, Ryan.

1:49:41George Kamel:Hey, guys. How you doing? Thanks for taking my call.

1:49:43Dave Ramsey:Sure. What's up?

1:49:45George Kamel:hey so my wife and i are moving down to florida in august and i just finished baby step one i got a side job made next to start listening to your show about a few months ago got a side job made about a thousand bucks just doing my side gig made some money now i'm now i'm wondering if i should start um tackling my debt or if i save up a little bit money for our move why are you guys moving? Job opportunity for her. And for me, there's actually a lot of opportunity for myself down there as well. And what's the move going to cost? And we're going to be paying probably a little bit. I haven't calculated the cost of the move yet, but we are going to be paying less in rent and both of us are going to be making more money.

1:50:28George Kamel:Okay. Well, right now you don't have the money for the move, so we definitely need to save up for that. Sure. Yeah. Before we start tackling more than minimum payments on the day.

1:50:37Dave Ramsey:I mean, if you pay off debt and you don't have money for the move and it goes in debt, that was a, you just swapped one, swapped ends, right?

1:50:43George Kamel:Sure. Yeah.

1:50:44Dave Ramsey:So when is the move?

1:50:47George Kamel:August. Okay. And do you know, ballpark, what it's going to cost? No. It's probably going to cost three to six grand. Okay. So now we have a goal. Six grand by August.

1:51:00Dave Ramsey:And how much debt do you have?

1:51:03George Kamel:18 ,000.

1:51:04Dave Ramsey:Okay. On what?

1:51:07George Kamel:Credit cards.

1:51:08Dave Ramsey:Okay. The truck is paid off. And what do you do for a living? I'm a golf professional. Okay. And so? Not in terms of playing, more of coaching. Gotcha. And, yeah, PGA use and a little bit of that going on in Florida. A little bit more than Virginia Beach. Probably land a gig in 30 minutes down there.

1:51:28George Kamel:Yeah.

1:51:31Dave Ramsey:Assuming you're any good. Okay. And what does she do?

1:51:36George Kamel:She works in the hospital field. She's an office director.

1:51:40Dave Ramsey:And what do you average as a PGA golf professional?

1:51:46George Kamel:I make my salaries about$35 a year, but I make probably$34 in terms of lessons compensation.

1:51:57Dave Ramsey:Okay, so$75,$80, and you'll probably do better than that in Florida. Yeah, okay, good.

1:52:01George Kamel:Yeah, yeah. Good, good, good. So game plan, save$1 ,000 a month until the move, and then once you guys are settled in, Let's start attacking this debt and knock it out fast because that credit card debt, the APR on that alone makes you want to throw up.

1:52:13Dave Ramsey:So I want your calendar for lesson availability to change today to you're available anytime. I want you working all the time. Got it. All the time. I don't want to pull your calendar up and go, oh, he doesn't work Thursdays. No, you work all the time. You need money. Yep. and go pile you up some money and get enough to cover the move, figure out and calculate what the move is going to be. Anything above that cost, go ahead and throw it at this debt and just keep working your way. It would be really cool if you just went crazy and got debt free and had the money for the move. Oh, I like that. By August.

1:52:49Dave Ramsey:Wouldn't that be weird? But that's both of you working all the time, and that's what I want to do. So that sounds cool. Sounds like an adventure. Do it, Ryan. Way to go, man. Eric's in Indianapolis. us. Hey, Eric, what's up in your world? Hey, Dave, thanks for taking my call. Sure. How can we help?

1:53:10George Kamel:I had just completed baby step three and was moving on to four, five, and six. And I started hearing different personalities talk about sinking funds, like for cars or maybe home repairs. And I'm curious if I should be basically growing a larger emergency fund, on top of the emergency fund, start the sinking funds as opposed to before or during 4, 5, and 6?

1:53:36Dave Ramsey:During 4, 5, and 6, you need some sinking funds that are not an emergency fund. And so home repairs are typically a minor sinking fund because you're setting aside, you're saying, okay, if we have a$3 ,000 event this year with a hot water heater or a heating and air item or something like that. You know, if we set aside$250 a month, we've got a little money for that. That's a planning a future reasonable thing. You're going to have things like that happen. The dishwasher goes out, washer and dryer blows up, whatever it is, right? Okay. That kind of thing. Car replacement, I don't start that until I see the car into the future.

1:54:16Dave Ramsey:So, in other words, I look and say, okay, two years from now we're going to buy a car. Okay, what's the car going to cost? $24 ,000. all right, it's 24 months,$1 ,000 a month. Okay, I'm going to do that that way. But if today I don't really see buying a car in the next two years or so, I'm probably not going to do that. But I'm going to do my sinking funds in time to be able to pay cash for whatever I'm going to do.

1:54:38George Kamel:So non-negotiable, invest 15%. Money beyond that, if you want to set up a few sinking funds for things you know are coming up, absolutely do that. But you don't need 17 of them eating up all of your take-home pay.

1:54:48Dave Ramsey:How, you know, saving out 30 years for a roof or something. Thank you.

1:55:23Thank you.

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1:56:22Dave Ramsey:Proverbs 31, 8 and 9 is our scripture of the day. They speak up for those who cannot speak up for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly. Defend the rights of the poor and needy. Benjamin Franklin said it takes many good deeds to build a good reputation and only one bad one to lose it. David is in San Antonio. Hi, David. How are you?

1:56:49George Kamel:I'm good. My wife and I are having a discussion. I want to retire in May of this year at 58. She wants me to work for four more years for one tenth of a percent on my multiplier for my retirement.

1:57:03Dave Ramsey:I'm sorry, this is a pension?

1:57:07George Kamel:Well, it's a federal pension, and I've maxed out. I'm basically as high as I can go.

1:57:13Dave Ramsey:Okay, so what is the pension if you retire now, and what is it if you work four more years in money?

1:57:18George Kamel:Yeah,$9 ,100 before any COLA. Right now, if I retire in May, it'll go up to like$9 ,780 a month if I wait four years.

1:57:31Dave Ramsey:Okay, so you get$800 or more a month if you work four more years. Yes. For life.

1:57:39George Kamel:For life. Okay.

1:57:41Dave Ramsey:And you would be 62. By the way, statistically, if you live to be 62 and you're a male, you make it into your 90s. So average death age of 76 no longer applies to these kinds of discussions. So we have a 30-year-plus time horizon on average.

1:58:03George Kamel:And then that's not even taking into account my TSP or my brokerage account.

1:58:09Dave Ramsey:Yeah, but that's not the point. The only question is, you're giving up$700 a month,$8 ,000 a year for 30 years or so.

1:58:22George Kamel:That is a lot of money.

1:58:23Dave Ramsey:Okay. Is she doing this because she doesn't think you're going to be able to live on it, or she thinks it's mathematically smart?

1:58:32George Kamel:She thinks we won't be able to live on it.

1:58:34Dave Ramsey:You can't live on$9 ,000 a month? What do you all make now?

1:58:38George Kamel:We make$150 ,000, but everything we have is paid for. We can live on it, and then we have plenty of money to pull out if we need to.

1:58:44Dave Ramsey:And you've got the TSP. How much is in it?

1:58:47George Kamel:Almost$3.2 million. Oh, good God.

1:58:50Dave Ramsey:Okay.

1:58:51George Kamel:And then there's our brokerage account. Okay. So what does the extra$8 ,000 a year do for her that she's going, hey, this is worth you working another four years? I think she wants me to work because she has to teach for four more years to retire. So that's the real reason. It has nothing to do with the money. So she said, if I have to work, you have to work. You don't get to lay on the couch while I'm out here. See, I keep telling her jokingly that I started working before you did.

1:59:17Dave Ramsey:Yeah. All right. So you have$3.2 million in the TSP. You have$9 ,100 coming in. In addition to that, you currently make$150. What does she make?

1:59:33George Kamel:She makes about$72.

1:59:35Dave Ramsey:Okay. And how much in other accounts other than the TSP? And then in our Victory Funds account, I've managed to save almost$2.8 million in our investment accounts. If neither one of you enjoy what you're doing and you both desire retirement, you should both quit.

2:00:00George Kamel:That's what I keep telling her because she keeps saying she wants to go on all these trips to Bali and to Africa.

2:00:06Dave Ramsey:And I think you should load up the truck and head to Beverly. You ought to do it.

2:00:11George Kamel:Well, I saved a lot because I grew up early poor.

2:00:14Dave Ramsey:I know. But you have$6 million. If you make an average of 10%, if that's invested in decent mutual funds, that's$600 ,000 a year. Plus you have$100 ,000 plus coming from the government, and I bet you she's got a pension too. Yeah. And so you've got a$700 ,000 or an$800 ,000 income without touching the$6 million.

2:00:37George Kamel:That's what I keep trying to tell her. Yeah.

2:00:40Dave Ramsey:And so I think you ought to go to Bali in May.

2:00:45George Kamel:That's what I'm thinking.

2:00:47Dave Ramsey:For a month.

2:00:48George Kamel:Thank you, Mr. Ramsey.

2:00:49Dave Ramsey:For a month.

2:00:52George Kamel:Well, thank you. I don't think you guys will be able to spend this money fast enough to even run out.

2:00:56Dave Ramsey:You need to sit down with your financial advisor and unpack all this and show that if this is all invested, what the income it's going to be throwing off without even touching the nest egg, just living off of the income only where you would be. And it's going to blow.

2:01:13George Kamel:I think I will make an appointment with our wealth advisor.

2:01:15Dave Ramsey:Yeah, and both of you sit down and let him or her say, here's the math, not emotion, not I grew up poor, so I think one way, but here's what the math says. The math says you could spend$500 ,000 a year and your investments will continue to grow.

2:01:35George Kamel:I think that's another concern is she wants to leave something for our children.

2:01:39Dave Ramsey:I think you probably are going to. Unless y 'all start doing cocaine or something, I think you're going to have plenty of money.

2:01:46George Kamel:Okay. Are they grown and successful on their own without you guys? Oh, yes. We've gotten them out of college. They all have careers on their own. Our daughter is a nurse anesthetist. They're fine.

2:01:57Dave Ramsey:She's making$400. Oh, my gosh. You guys are killing it. I'm so proud of y 'all.

2:02:03George Kamel:She makes like$210, but she's doing good.

2:02:04Dave Ramsey:Yeah, way to go, David. This is awesome.

2:02:07George Kamel:I think both of you need to loosen up and go enjoy some of this money.

2:02:09Dave Ramsey:Yeah, it's time. You lived like no one else. Now it's time to live and give like no one else. There's no reason for you all to work unless you are enjoying it, and it's what you want to do with your life. That's why I work. But I haven't worked in years because I needed money. Years, decades. So I work because I like doing this. And then sometimes I like being gone, and I'm gone. You're good at that, too. I'm good at that, too. I've got them both down. Got it dialed in, baby. I love it. That's a good lesson. Man, way to go, David. Tyler's in Columbus, Ohio. Hi, Tyler. What's up?

2:02:47George Kamel:Hey, Dave. I'm calling because I'm just trying to make the right decision here. I got three properties. One's my primary residence. That's about$350. I got another one that's a rental producing about 500 bucks a month in cash flow. And then I have another one that's an Airbnb. I'm trying to, that one's breaking even. And I'm trying to decide, I'm trying to work towards baby step number two. And we're doing that with my wife's student loans. and I'm just trying to figure out if I should sell these houses, make somewhere in the realm of like$100 ,000 plus grand. The two houses that you don't live in?

2:03:31George Kamel:And lay off everything.

2:03:32Dave Ramsey:Yes. And how much do you have in debt that's not mortgage debt?

2:03:38George Kamel:I have about$70 ,000 in my wife's student loans and$20 ,000 on a truck. Okay.

2:03:45Dave Ramsey:So you'd sell two rentals, an Airbnb that's breaking even, another one's making$500 and be 100 % debt-free and have your household income and be working your system to build cash, build it to pay cash for your next rental properties somewhere out in the future. Would that be a plan?

2:04:03George Kamel:That might be a good plan.

2:04:05Dave Ramsey:It seems a scary venture to sell an asset or something. Well, let me just tell you, owning an Airbnb that breaks even as big a pain in the butt as those things are to manage, breaking even on that does not sound appealing. Not even remotely.

2:04:20George Kamel:That's a lot of headache and stress on top of$100 ,000 in debt. So I would definitely sell these, clear the debt, get an emergency fund, and then just move slower next time.

2:04:29Dave Ramsey:Yeah, and just pay cash as you go. And let's get your house paid off. I'm going to guess and say you're in your 20s.

2:04:36George Kamel:I'm 31. Been in the military for the past 10 years. Finally got out, moved on to a bigger, better career. And it was a great investment at the time. got it under COVID time and right before COVID, and they've only appreciated.

2:04:53Dave Ramsey:So you can make some money on it and clear up everything, and now you've got no payment in the world and just stack cash and start talking about how we can get the mortgage paid off and pay cash for some rentals in the future. That's what I did, Tyler, and I pay cash for everything, and it has been a wonderful life building a portfolio of paid-for real estate, and I can't recommend it enough. And it sounds like you're good at it and you like it, except for that Airbnb part. Now you don't have to clean up after the next bachelor party. That sounds nice, too. Oh, that just grossed me out. Sorry, Dave.

2:05:26George Kamel:I'm just saying, that's who's booking these Airbnbs.

2:05:29Dave Ramsey:I don't even want to know about it. I don't want to know nothing. Wow. That puts us out of the Ramsey Show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.

2:06:00I'll see you next time.