108. Mhairi Black: Independence, inequality, and the future of the SNP

0:00Thanks for listening to The Rest Is Politics. Sign up to The Rest Is Politics. Plus, to enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chatroom and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolitics.com. That's therestispolitics.com. You're about to hear Alastair and me talk to the extraordinary Scottish politician, Mary Black. And it was a really enjoyable conversation. We get going into many, many different things. Character in politics, the culture of politics, a lot about the US election and Donald Trump. This was actually recorded before the US election.

0:31and you'll pick that up as the conversation goes forward. But I think it's mesmerizing listening, particularly on what the experience of a young person entering parliament at the period that she did was and what it tells us about the state of our democracy.

0:50Welcome to The Rest is Politics with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alistair Campbell. With Murray Black. With Murray Black. And we're sitting here, Alistair, I mean, genuinely, it's amazing. we're on a bus and it's a black sort of leather bus it's a it's great beds on it this this bus eight eight beds it's like a rock star bus it is a rock star bus right this bus is normally used by rock stars right who go on the road and so it's got eight beds on it and it's got a shower and as you keep saying we don't really want to we don't really want to think about all the telly all the stuff that happens i don't i really don't okay now luckily however to raise the tone we have with There's Murray Black, who entered Parliament when I was in Parliament.

1:30I saw a lot of her. Not particularly socially, actually. I mean, she was a very, very visible figure around Parliament, a very dramatic figure, because she had come in to the House of Commons at the age of 20, which is, I mean, record-breakingly young. And she very rapidly made a name for herself. She got, I think, 10 million views for her maiden speech. Which is pretty rare for a maiden speech. It's unbelievable. It's like sort of fifth of the entire adult population of Britain is watching the maiden speech. mine was watched just by my mum and I think she's become a really interesting figure in so many different ways and the thing is that the reason we're talking to her, we talked to her the guy she beat in Paisley, Douglas Alexander a few weeks ago, who's now back in Parliament the reason I thought it would be interesting to talk to her is because she's now gone the other way, she's decided I've had enough, I can't face it, I'm leaving and she's, I think, you know, I've talked to her before, your book, you found politics very very difficult, but I think for a very different reason she found it incredibly difficult I think she loathes what happens in Parliament and I think she's also somebody who's very very interesting on this phenomenon about the SNP which is that it's kind of it's a bit left it's a bit right it's a bit socially conservative it's a bit it's a bit radical it's a bit this it's a bit that and I think she's very much on that kind of left side of the SNP and with some very very strong views and I think found some of the stuff that happened with the leadership very very difficult to deal with she having defeated Douglas Miss Alexander at the age of 20, he having now gone back in, she's going in the other direction.

2:57And just at the age of 30 is now going to be a former MP by her own choice. So let's talk to Murray Black. It's lovely to have her here. And Rory, why don't you kick us off? So Murray, can we start, I guess, at the beginning? I mean, what kind of child were you? What kind of person were you? What would you have been like to meet as a, I don't know, a seven-year-old or a ten-year-old? Well, when I was seven, it was actually one of my first times getting involved in anything political, and it was against the Iraq War. You weren't demonstrating against the Iraq War when you were seven? Yeah. Wow.

3:32I mean, I didn't have much of a choice in it, to be fair, but, you know, I always remember that, being asking, right, what's all this about? And then just kind of soaking it all up. You were heading out there to find Tony Blair and just have it out with him. Well, no, it turns Turns out he'd left on a helicopter hours before, so it was a big march for no more than getting your steps. What did you as a young person think about the fact he wasn't there when you turned up? I mean, at that point, if I'm being totally honest, my feet hurt and that was my main priority. But looking back, I think, I mean, I get you're a busy person, but poor show.

4:03So just tell me a little bit about your parents. What were they like? To be fair, my whole family was political, not in the sense of party politics, but in the sense of like being involved in trade unions and keeping an eye on what's happening and talking about politics you know it was it's something that I only appreciated as I got older was how there was really no topic that was barred in our house you know it's like that phrase don't talk about religion or politics I'd never heard that and when I first heard the phrase I was like well what do you talk about like it's in that sense I was blessed in being brought up with such a talkative and articulate and political family in that sense.

4:44They were the first of their generation to go to university and stuff. So yeah, no, they were pretty traditional labour, you know, my whole family was, as much of Scotland was, and that was kind of the basis from where we were always coming at things. Okay, you were always an SNP supporter? I was always an independence supporter. Okay. You prefer the I word to the N word? I do, because I think that nationalism... Is right wing. Yeah, it has so many connotations to it that are very ugly and are completely against the values that I hold dear. And you can conversation about civic nationalism, which is different from other forms.

5:22But by that point, I think you've lost the point if you're getting pedantic about things. I remember reading about Nicola Sturgeon's journey, and that was quite interesting. And I wondered if you sort of think she's a different generation to you, I guess. But she went through a journey of being quite a bright student. And then I think she became increasingly worried that the Labour Party had basically gone quite right wing. She also had strong views on the Iraq War. And so I just wondered, what has changed in generations? What do you think her experience, I guess, in the 80s where she's trying to arrange herself about has Labour stood up to Margaret Thatcher properly?

5:59What choices are being made with Tony Blair? And then you, I guess, am I right, maybe 20, even 30 years younger. What changed in being? So, I mean, I joined the SNP in 2011, I'm sure. and that was the first time anyone in my family had, as far as I'm aware, had actually formally joined a political party. And the only reason I had joined it was because I thought, well, we're getting a referendum if we do this. And it was the independence factor that was really driving it. And I think for people like, maybe not totally Nicola Sturgeon, but of her generation, I think it was almost like you had to know somebody in the SNP to even know it existed in a sense because for a long time the SNP were a fringe party.

6:44You know, you look back far enough, they were a very right-wing fringe party. And as that has changed over the years, I think the beginning of the swing was in the 80s with Thatcher. Because I think when people in Scotland started to realise, how do we get rid of her? We're turning out every election and we're voting overwhelmingly against her, and yet she's still destroying communities all over Scotland. and that I think set a fire off in a lot of folks' bellies that has been rumbling for a good long while and then 2011 was the time where it all came to my head. You won't have any memory of it but knowing what you do now about the devolution changes that we made up to 1997 I think we always thought that would satisfy to some extent the desires that you're talking about but do you think actually it fuelled them?

7:35Do you think that devolution movement fuelled the SNP? Genuinely, I think both, to be honest, because there's still in the SNP, there's a division in thought about whether devolution is too slow a game or whether it should just be kind of hold fast and you hold out for the full thing and nothing less. So on the one hand, had I been in Labour at that time, I would have thought the same devolution is the best thing you can do. And to an extent, it still is the best thing you can do to sort of pierce the independence bubble. But I think the difficulty then is how much do you devolve before you have to concede, right, well, we might as well just give you power over everything then, because we've kind of already started broaching the edge of how far we can take devolution.

8:21You said you joined at 2011 But of course what I guess the person listening isn't fully taking in Is that that's you at sort of 15, 16 isn't it Yeah I was 16 I think And you also went to university very very young Yeah I was 16 when I started uni as well And that was, you went to Glasgow? Yes went to Glasgow uni So that's you, and then you went to the House of Commons When you're, to spoil the story for the listener, 20 right So it feels like a very kind of accelerated life Absolutely Tell us a little bit of what that's like as a teenager moving that fast I think in some senses I was just in the right place at the right time Because, like I say, I joined the party in 2011 2012 it was announced, we're getting the referendum And then the following two years I just spent campaigning And can I understand, why did you go to university?

9:12You went to this prestigious university very young So because I was, so I left at the end of fifth year I wish it was that And I was just ready to move on. I was done with school. I couldn't have stomached another year. And I thought, right, I'm going to try my hardest and see if I can get into any university. And I managed to get in. Most of the other students starting would have been 18, right? 18 plus. In hindsight, I think going to university when I did was actually the perfect training ground for what I did next because I was this young, younger than everybody else, knew, didn't know what I was doing, this old institution, this world famous established institution where everybody's older than me.

9:56Where did I end up? In another old institution, you know, where everyone's older than me. When did you first think you might become an MP? Genuinely, it was about halfway through the election campaign. You didn't think you were going to win? No. You were up against Douglas Alexander. Yeah, didn't expect to win at all. But I thought, I'm going to make him work for it. I think if I'm just being realistic and honest, that's where my head was at. I've gone, I'll just do everything I possibly can because I don't like this just being taken for granted. How did you campaign against him? So this is a very, very well-established MP who'd been in there, I guess, since just after 97.

10:31Yeah. Very well connected in the Labour Party, had been in the Cabinet, been a Secretary of State. Comes from sort of Labour aristocracy in Scotland. His sister was a big deal in Scottish politics, etc. And you're a 1920-year-old, right? Mouse. Right? Yes. So what was your... If you were trying to persuade a voter not to vote for this person, vote for you, what was your critique of him? What would you say? Unless it's warranted. I don't like criticising people individually. I think you can talk about the politics of it and how people vote and the things that they argue for, but I never went straight in on Douglas because also I didn't know him.

11:10You know, I rarely met the guy. I spoke to him briefly in the street once. So when I was on the doorsteps, I just talked about politics. I would just say, what's wrong with this constituency and let folk talk to me. And then that's how the conversation would start. And it's only through talking with people like that that you start to understand what's the issue that's sticking for them. You know, what's the, I suppose, the watermark for them of going right now, I'm convinced. And for different people, it's different things. Just to follow up one more. I mean, why do you think they voted in the end for you and not Douglas Alexander?

11:45What was it that he was failing to offer in that vision? And what were you offering in your vision? I think it was a combination of there was a national swing happening, undoubtedly. But I do think that the local campaigning is what pushed us over the edge. Because what I do remember about that campaign in 2015 was we, the SNP, were so visible. we had so many activists and you went to the high street you went in the middle of schemes and suddenly there's 20 people with little SNP boards and all knocking doors whereas Labour didn't have any of that at the time and I suppose that was again feeding into this they're taking us for granted here so I do think it was a combination of the both happening So you won and at the time you were the youngest MP elected since the Great Reform Act 1832 you made a pretty powerful maiden speech which really kind of had a lot of impact but you talked in there about town centers deteriorating communities in decline unemployment levels child poverty food banks etc etc etc but how much has the scottish government the smp government actually addressed those issues now that you're out of it i can see why you might have had a critique of Labour, which I might defend, but I can see where you had that critique.

13:07Do you not have to have the same critique of the SNP government as well? And just to add to that, to what extent now that you've left, do you feel you can be more open about that, whereas you would have been more defensive about it beforehand? Well, I suppose it's more now I can say what I would say behind the scenes, but I can do it publicly. You know, that's a very freeing thing. So genuinely, I think there are examples of where the Scottish government over the last 17 odd years have for want of a better term have made an arse of things in different examples so there's no getting away from that but equally on policy and maybe less so policy and more on how they're actually delivering that policy and the practicalities of it, I think that's where we've been tripped up quite a few times but I do also think it's very true though that fundamentally the big levers and where the big decisions are made that will change people's lives in terms of work opportunities, that's Westminster.

14:07And there's only so much you can blame the devolved governments because I think ultimately there's everything they try to do. They've got one hand tied behind their back. So by no means perfect, definitely not, but I do not think they're to blame. You said that you went from one institute where the youngest person, Glasgow University, and then you end up in another one, Parliament. I don't know if you've read Rory's book about Parliament, because he didn't like it much either. But you, it seems to me, really felt this place is just awful. I had a good conversation with, she was the deputy speaker at the time, Eleanor Lang.

14:44And after I'd announced that I wasn't standing again, she came over and was so surprised and shocked. And I was like, really, Eleanor? Have you listened to anything I've said? So we sat down and we're talking. and because I was younger I do think there was an element of the things that I found outdated or unacceptable were so much more visible to me because I hadn't been there for so what kind of things are we talking about just even general I mean bullying is rife in that parliament just bad people being able to intimidate others into doing what they want rather than actually treating people with equal respect.

15:27You talk about whips, you talk about ministers, you talk about MPs, you talk about officials. Oh, across the board, it's different people, different levels. I've met whips like that, I've met backbench MPs like that, I've met leaders like that. It's a people issue rather than it being any one role, if that makes sense. Do you recognize that? Yeah, there's a lot of bullying. It's very unpleasant. I remember almost my first day in the House of Commons, you try to learn the rules and there are no proper rules and we were told that if there wasn't a little card on the chair, we could sit where we wanted.

15:57So I very shyly come and sit down on my green bench and this big guy next to me says, you can't sit there, my friend's going to sit there. And I was like, but everything else is full, I don't have anywhere else to sit. And he turns to me and he just says, fuck off. And this guy's been in since, you know, 13 years longer than me. This guy later threatened to punch me behind the speaker's chair. Come on, name names. but it's a very I mean I think it's a horrible culture and the whole culture is all about I don't know whether it's probably not quite as bad in the S &P but in the big parties it's certainly all about loyalty teamwork just as bad because people always say to me why are you leaving politics and there's part of me that thinks I'm not leaving politics I've left elected politics and party politics and they're very different things You know, politics is everywhere.

16:51It's in, you know, the price of the food that's in, what transport's available, how much you're getting paid. It's everywhere. But I think the party politics, that's the bit where I think it's, I'm not suited for it at all. And I don't know that any honest person really can thrive in it. So you won three elections. Yep. But still relatively young. Yeah. You decided to pack it in. Do you feel you achieved anything? For individuals, definitely. Yeah, we did. I mean, of course, everyone talks about casework. When you can help a constituent, it genuinely is a great feeling, particularly when you're as frustrated as I felt in Parliament, particularly because we were in fewer numbers.

17:32so Scotland's only got 57 MPs now so you're in a situation where all of the MPs for one city can outvote the second largest nation in the UK so it's kind of set up to fail from the get go and even when I tried to play the game and get the cross party support and everything knocked my pan in and it just again brick wall thrown right up and that was what I thought this is all so performative in here this is everybody knows what's expected of them and we just keep running round this sort of hamster wheel One of the things that struck me immediately is that you get an impression that debates are about persuading the other side and what I learnt very quickly is that everybody's voting on a three line whip make the best argument in the world Labour all troops through one lobby, Tories all troops through the other lobby and forget about it that's if anyone's paying attention to the speeches at all rather than looking at their phones and drifting off and doing whatever they want.

18:27Because I remember very early on I had pointed out to somebody that the best debates are the ones where the chamber's empty because all the heat's taken out of it and suddenly there's no speech limit and the folk who are there tend to be there because they actually care and understand and have an in-depth knowledge about what they're talking about and there can be a really interesting back and forth but when it's important or when the place is packed you write speeches for your social media clip, you don't do it to try and convince anybody's mind in there, that chamber is just theatre Now you're out though, have you have you got any ideas as to how you might improve it?

19:01Realistic ideas that the system might accept to change or do you just think you've given up thinking it can change? No, no, I absolutely think it can change but no matter what angle it is, whether it's being the actual practicalities of how the Parliament functions, whether it's a case of the culture in the Parliament or what, I think the first thing that they have to get over is this obsession with tradition for tradition's sake. and I've always said I totally appreciate that tradition is an important thing and it's how you connect generations to each other but when that tradition starts to become dysfunctional or a barrier to doing the work you're supposed to do then no, it needs to go and that's where I think even changing the shape of that chamber I think could make a difference Would you not have thought of going to the Scottish Parliament?

19:52No, truthfully because I think two things One, I think I'd be flung out the SNP within a week. Because? Just because I'd find too much to disagree with. But I think the main point why I wouldn't do it is because I think, like I said at the start, Westminster's where the power lies that really changes lives, that fundamentally changes society. It's not the Scottish Parliament. This thing about disagreeing and being flung out is, I guess, one of the big, big questions of politics, isn't it? how do you combine your own sense of integrity and your beliefs with the other view that it's a team sport and it's about loyalty and alistair was very much at the other end of this right i mean he's sitting there in number 10 trying to run a system with tony blair and what he wants is people loyally trooping into the lobby getting behind whatever they're trying to do and he's not very amused by people like you and me saying yes you know we've got some idealistic idea and we disagree with exactly what the government we never chucked jeremy corbyn out of the party You never touch your reporter.

20:53That's true. Did you ever give him the Malcolm Tucker? Didn't be able to look. But yeah, I guess, I mean, we were both at the Democrat convention and I was very struck and impressed in a way by the way that AOC was very kind of loyal and, you know, dropped her views on, it's an awful thing to say, but I mean, dropped many views on things that I agree with her on in order to support her leader, take on Trump, win the election. I think it's kind of the fundamental battle that goes on I think in every point of politics is trying to find the balance between what's right and what will work. You know, and very rarely are those two things exactly the same, if that makes sense.

21:37So the right thing to do is to stand by your beliefs and to hold fast. And particularly if it's minorities you're talking about, because you might be the only voice that they have on their side. So no, you hold fast. But then equally, you have to play the long game and you have to go, right, but if we compromise on this one thing, that gets us one step further up the ladder. You know, it's something you can build on. And that's where I think unless a political party actually can demonstrate internally that they have that plan that will take them up the ladder, that's when the wheels start coming off.

22:11I'm fascinated by this, particularly at the moment, because I guess if you are a congressperson or a senator in the Democratic Party at the moment, the whips have got the key card, which is we're going up against Donald Trump. This is such an evil man. Forget about all your ideals. Forget about we are one team, one voice. It's about us against fascism, basically. Exactly. And you can imagine how frustrating that must be for you. You might want to talk about Gaza. You might want to talk about child tax credits. And you're just being told no. Yeah. But again, I think it's that balance, I suppose, because if I was sitting there, I would be thinking, right, I don't want to drop all this stuff.

22:46I tell you what, if Trump gets in, there's not a chance that I'm going to be able to affect any kind of change whatsoever. So right on balance, I will hold my tongue for this until we get over that hurdle. And I think that's OK. That's part of being a grown up about things. But I guess you would in practice, it could be very tough. Oh, definitely. You know, you could be put on television. They could, you know, ask your position on Gaza and you sort of equivocate or you avoid the question because you know the party line is something different. And then all your supporters are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's she just done?

23:18She's just sold us out. Absolutely, that happens. I suppose, again, that's where it comes down to your own judgment, a case of am I willing, would I be comfortable sticking up for myself? The way I would always play these things through in my head is if I was sitting in the pub with people, would I be able to justify this without bullshitting them or myself? And if I'm able to do that, then I think, right, no, this has got logic to it. Okay, Murray, Rory, quick break. The spirit of innovation is deeply ingrained in America, and Google is helping Americans innovate in ways both big and small. From improving emergency response times to protecting against cyber attacks, local, state, and federal governments are innovating with Google AI.

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24:14Do you think you made any real friends in Parliament? A couple, yeah. Yeah, but I mean, I could count them on one hand, definitely. And they're people that you still see a lot of? Yeah, I mean, less so now, just because we're not, you know, travelling down stuck there all the time. But yeah, no, I still keep in touch with them. But no, it was quite a lonely experience, certainly when I started. I mean, for a multitude of reasons, but particularly because I just felt that there was nobody that I was talking to that I would gel with. You know, and I mean, everyone experiences that themselves. It's a lonely feeling when that happens.

24:49But eventually you build bridges with people, you learn more. The obvious problem that I have, and I guess you have, when we talk about how grim it is, is you've got Alistair saying, which you've got to encourage all these young people to go into politics. You've got to be optimistic. You've got to be idealistic. How do you deal with that? I don't think the two necessarily are mutually exclusive. I think when I'm asked that, you know, oh, this sounds terrible. Why would anyone get involved in it? And that's where part of me goes, well, the reason you should get involved because it's no changing unless you do get involved.

25:23But equally, if I'm standing here trying to convince you, you, you and you to get involved in politics. I'm not sending you in there blind. I want you to know the reality of what you're walking into because in a lot of ways that's kind of the biggest shock to the system is suddenly you're in this building and it's a bubble unto itself and it's got its own etiquettes, its own norms and its own culture that to the outside world are just alien. When I'm being mean to Alistair, I sometimes think in my mind he's a bit like this guy's doing the kind of recruiting for the First World War who show pictures of knights in shining armor and they're not really revealing what it's like in the trenches.

26:00Yeah, that's harsh. Yeah, that's harsh. That's harsh. The whole Alex Salmon, Nicola Sturgeon journey, story, call it what you will, what was your take on that? There was a time when they looked kind of almost impregnable as a political force. And Alex, first minister, then Nicola, first minister. And I mean, obviously, we're talking not long after Alex Salmon died, but they both went in directions for all sorts of reasons. isn't it? It's very hard to work out exactly what happened. I mean, I'll start by saying I also don't know what happened. But certainly from my perspective, I suppose it's much easier to toe the line and hold your tongue and, you know, maybe ignore set or let things go when you're experiencing unprecedented success.

26:44And I think that's where kind of the beginning of the SNP's troubles was, was that particularly after the referendum in 2015, when we had this burst and became the third largest party in the UK, the SNP as an organisation wasn't built to deal with that level of engagement. So you had this period where it was just everybody had to get stuck in because we would be completely overwhelmed otherwise. And I remember the phrase that gets said to me was, we're building the plane as we're flying it. And that's what it felt like to a large extent. And everybody's willing to pitch in and do their best so long as they can see where the destination is.

27:26But I think as time went on, it became much more fractious. It became foggy, if you like, and for, I cannae see where we're actually headed, never mind where we're landing. Has anybody checked there's a wing on this? You know, it started to feel like that. And I suppose there's only so long that you can contain that feeling and that mood that is bubbling away underneath the surface. and particularly for the parliamentarian side, eventually it's going to come to a head. And the kind of things that you might have thought would split the SNP apart, maybe 20, 30 years ago, maybe split on the questions of, I don't know, the monarchy, or it might split on sort of fundamental questions of economic analysis, turned out not to be the things that caused the problem.