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Podcast Notes: The Rest Is Politics - Episode 120: The New President of Syria: Trump, Palestine, and having a $10 million bounty on your head (Ahmed al-Sharaa)
Episode Overview In this episode of *The Rest Is Politics*, hosts Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart interview Ahmed al-Sharaa, the newly appointed president of Syria. The discussion covers al-Sharaa’s past as an al-Qaeda fighter, his psychological journey over two decades, and his vision for Syria’s future amidst political turmoil.
Key Themes and Discussions
Background on Ahmed al-Sharaa
- Previous Life: Al-Sharaa was one of the world’s most wanted criminals with a $10 million bounty on his head.
- Joined al-Qaeda in Iraq at 19, involved in insurgencies against U.S. forces.
- Imprisonment: Held in American prisons, where he reportedly gained political insight and strategic thinking.
- Rise to Power: Emerged as a political figure following a swift military campaign that led to his assumption of the presidency.
Psychological Impact of a Secret Life
- Al-Sharaa discusses the challenges of living in secrecy for over 20 years.
- Emphasizes the stress associated with being a wanted terrorist while interacting with various groups.
- Suggests that many aspects of his life were about serving the people rather than seeking personal gain.
Transition from Militancy to Politics
- Al-Sharaa portrays himself as a figure of peace and stability.
- Acknowledges his past but emphasizes a shift in focus towards rebuilding Syria.
- The interview explores how he intends to balance his previous role with his current political responsibilities.
Political Landscape of Syria
- Current State: Describes Syria as having been systematically destroyed over the past 14 years under the previous regime.
- Future Plans: Al-Sharaa outlines his vision for governance, including:
- Immediate focus on stabilizing the government and establishing institutions.
- Plans for a constitutional declaration and national dialogue.
International Relations and Sanctions
- Al-Sharaa is keen on lifting sanctions and establishing diplomatic relationships, particularly with Western nations.
- He argues that sanctions should be reconsidered now that the previous regime has fallen.
Personal Reflections and Ideological Shifts
- Al-Sharaa reflects on his childhood, the influence of his politically active father, and the political culture in Arab societies.
- Discusses the importance of learning from past mistakes and adapting strategies for governance.
Challenges Ahead
- Al-Sharaa faces significant challenges in managing different factions within Syria, some of which retain more extremist views.
- The new leadership aims to navigate a delicate balance between maintaining control while fostering peace and inclusivity.
Key Takeaways
- Complex Identity: Al-Sharaa’s transition from a militant leader to the president represents a complex evolution of identity and ideology.
- Focus on Stability: The emphasis on creating a multi-ethnic political environment contrasts with previous extremist ideologies.
- Audience Compromise: Al-Sharaa must navigate messages that appeal to both his former combatants and the international community.
- Hope for Change: There is a cautious optimism among some Syrians that Al-Sharaa’s presidency could lead to a more stable and prosperous future.
Conclusion This episode provides a unique glimpse into the mind of a man who has transitioned from one of the world's most wanted terrorists to a leader of a nation. It raises critical questions about the nature of political change, the legacy of violence, and the potential for reconciliation and rebuilding in a war-torn Syria. Al-Sharaa's narrative is one of complexity, reflecting the broader struggles within the region.
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> Note: The podcast episode is intricately layered with discussions on sensitive political issues, historical context, and personal anecdotes. It emphasizes the need for understanding the multifaceted nature of leadership, especially in regions with deep-rooted conflicts.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Thanks for listening to The Rest is Politics. Sign up to The Rest is Politics. Plus, to enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chatroom and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolitics.com. That's therestispolitics.com.
0:19Welcome to The Rest Is Politics, leading with me, Rory Stewart. And with me, Alistair Campbell. and you're about to listen to an interview that Rory and I did a few days ago in Damascus in the palace of the people as Bashar al-Assad insisted on calling it which is now occupied by a man that many of you will know as al-Jalani but actually is called now president Ahmed al-Shara and a really really interesting interview. We ended up having longer with him than we expected to. It came about because one of his people had heard Rory and I talking about him on the podcast, and we'd said that we'd love to interview him.
1:07And then they got in touch through the foreign ministry. And we then met the foreign minister in Davos, talked about when and how we might get there and do the interview. flew to Beirut, got driven to Damascus, and then after a long wait, while he was in Saudi Arabia, seeing Mohammed bin Salman and others, up to the palace at 10.30, started the interview at half past 10 at night, and we left there roughly just before one o 'clock. I'd been there before when Assad was in power. I'd say the security even greater in terms of the ins and outs and and taking away our phones, taking away our passports.
1:51Pretty ghastly place in many ways. I think there's only so much marble you can take in. I don't think Mr. and Mrs. Assad had much in the way of taste. But, you know, we talked about all sorts of different things. You know, what we couldn't do was kind of explain everything that we were talking about as we went. Some of the history you just have to take for granted. So, Rory, before we get going, Why don't you just do one of your famous explainers about who this guy is and kind of how he got to where he's got to. And then that will maybe help people understand better the conversation that we have.
2:26Well, first thing to be said is that Ahmad al-Shara or Abu Muhammad al-Jalani was one of the most wanted terrorists in the world with a$10 million US bounty on his head. He joined Al-Qaeda Iraq 22 years ago, was the emir for Al-Qaeda in Syria, in other words, the boss. And therefore, it was not until very recently that anyone could begin to get any real information about him. He lived, as you would expect, as a highly wanted international terrorist, a life of extreme secrecy. Almost nothing was known about his wife, about his children, and even very well-informed commentators. if you go back through articles a few years ago, get his age wrong, get his place of birth wrong, get his family wrong.
3:16Get his name wrong sometimes. Get his name wrong. And so it's only really in the last 60 days since he exploded out of this small territory up in northwest Syria. And in a matter of days, with almost no opposition swept through from Aleppo to Damascus, capturing the whole country and becoming president, that he's emerged into the limelight. And we've begun to put together some of the facts of his life. So born in Saudi Arabia, where his family were living in exile, they were originally from the Golan Heights, a part of Syria now occupied by Israel. His father, who was an engineer from a middle class family, returned to Damascus when Ahmed al-Shara was eight or nine years old, it seems.
4:05And his father was involved in pretty liberal Arab nationalist demonstrations against the old Assad government, which in fact was in place for almost 50 years, ruled for 50 years by Assad father and son. He participated in something called the Damascus Spring, and you'll hear when you listen to the interview. We tried to use this as a way of getting him to talk about the difference between his ideology and his father's, because his father tried to lead a sort of more liberal nationalist rebellion as opposed to an Islamist rebellion. 2003, at the age of 19, the young Ahmad al-Shara, who was then a media student at the university, crossed the border into Iraq and joined al-Qaeda Iraq in its opposition, its fight against the US and British invasion and occupation.
4:56al-qaeda iraq i first came across because i was in the un building in baghdad meeting un officials i had had lunch in the canteen i left i went back to my hotel and was due to come back again that afternoon and in the intervening hour al-qaeda iraq drove a suicide truck straight up against side of the building, killed a dozen people, injured hundreds, and I returned to find this entire building blown up. The guy that had served me at lunch was dead. The head of the UN had been killed as the building fell on his head. And quite quickly, this organization, which Ahmed El-Sharah joined, developed a reputation under its boss, a Jordanian hard man, petty criminal in his late teens called Ebu Musab al-Zakawi.
5:49And he got a reputation for soaring off people's heads, basically posting snuff videos of killing Americans, and also for letting off big bombs, not just against the UN, but also killing a big Shia cleric and starting a civil war against the Shia in Iraq. And the idea was, from Zakawi's point of view, and he'd been a fighter in Afghanistan, and he'd met bin Laden, he'd met Zawahiri, was that by creating a massive violent civil war between Sunni and Shia, he could combine total chaos in Iraq with attacks against the occupation forces. Just jumping in there, it's probably worth pointing out for listeners, when they get to the point where he talks about the efforts that he always went to as a fighter and a warrior to avoid civilian casualties, that it's quite hard to square that, either with the bounty on his head or with the suicide bombing, the car bombings, etc.
6:48So we're talking about a level of violence that the people will know about, but which now he's clearly trying to talk down in terms of his role. Yes. Because what you're going to see is somebody who's trying to project himself as a political leader now rather than the military figure that clearly has been for most of his life. Yeah. And he says in the interview that he's interested in sitting down with us in much more detail to talk through how al-Qaeda operated in Iraq, how the factions work, why he broke from them. And I guess he's trying to say that he, along with actually some of the leadership, including Zawahiri, who was bin Laden's deputy in Afghanistan, thought that Zakawe, the leader of al-Qaeda Iraq, went too far.
7:34And the end of the story is that having been put in prison by the Americans, he was held in a series of American prisons, which I knew quite well, because again, one of the ironies of this interview is that you were, of course, very, very deeply involved with Tony Blair and George Bush in the initial decision to invade Iraq. And I was on the ground at the same time as Ahmad al-Sharah, 2003, 4, 5, in Iraq. So the prison that he was held in was a prison I knew. And one of the things I knew about that prison was that the Americans who were inputting data kept getting people's names wrong. And sure enough, one of the reasons this guy was released is that he was incorrectly recorded as an Iraqi Kurd and was released from prison.
8:16He then joined what went on to become ISIS. It came close to al-Baghdadi. But at the point at which al-Baghdadi sent him across the Syrian border with a tiny group of people, five or six people, he was sent off to open the franchise in Syria, open al-Qaeda Syria. He fought and tried to hold Aleppo, lost Aleppo. His organization began changing names, began being called Jabal Tarnusra and eventually HTS. And along the way, he broke with ISIS and Daesh. And the break was very dramatic. It was a hugely risky moment. He was told to come into line and join an idea of a great caliphate across the Iraqi Syrian border.
8:59He instead decided to go straight over al-Baghdadi's head, right back to al-Qaeda central, to the new head of al-Qaeda, the guy that had replaced bin Laden after bin Laden's death and pledged allegiance directly to him. And this then led to a war between him and Daesh, in which an enormous number of his own fighters were killed. He lost Aleppo, he retreated back. And that is really as much as I know about him. And really, the world itself doesn't know much more than these outlines. And it would be fascinating. I'm going to hand back to you now, but fascinating at some point to see if we could take him up on the offer to really understand this because of course what he will say i think is that isis went too far that he didn't agree with the attacks on the shia he didn't agree with the attacks on civilians he may not have agreed with some of the the snuff videos he may have had a different relationship with the foreign fighters and therefore he's doing something which for a western audience will sound very very very bizarre which is that he's presenting al-qaeda as being the sort of more moderate sensible fringe and isis as the crazier edge.
10:09And I suppose a big warning here, which is like our interview with Jerry Adams, he's lived a secret life. There's no way of checking his statements. There's no reason particularly to believe that he's being honest about his early life. In fact, every reason to believe that he may wish misrepresented it. And we're trying to draw him out. And over on that to you, on the challenges of that interview. The thing I would say, rather than it being necessarily dishonest, because as you say, we don't know. We don't know the full story of his life. We don't know of all the organizations he was involved in when.
10:44We don't know why. We talked to him a lot about when he was in prison. We don't know why when he was in prison, he was suddenly alighted upon by other leaders as a man who could clearly be a leader of when he came out, which is exactly what happened. He essentially came out of prison and was one of the leaders. And of course, we know from Irish terrorism that, you know, I do see quite a lot of parallels here. But prison, in a sense, becomes a kind of education ground when you're in there with other people in for the same thing. And you're learning, you're swapping ideas. He talked about the history that he learned while he was there.
11:21But I think it's interesting. You said there about when the Americans invaded Iraq. when people hear the interview he talks about the americans entering iraq he mentions at one point the israeli state which i suspect for most of his life he's he's not recognized and he talks about israeli state he talks about thousands and thousands of palestinians who were killed he's not saying who were butchered by the evil vicious enemy so he's definitely i would argue to softening his language. And I think this is part of, and I suspect the reason why he's done the podcast with us is because he wants to reach a Western audience.
12:04They're obviously keen to get sanctions lifted. They want to get unprescribed as a terrorist organization. And the fact is that since he did explode, as you say, from Idlib, effective with this bloodless victory, Assad fleeing with his wife and now settled in some palace in Russia, he's since then been projecting himself as a politician. And it's very interesting, for example, you were talking there about the story, but actually, even when we try to drill in on the more general jihadi elements and the causes they were fighting in the battle in Europe and taking out diplomats and all that, he's fixated completely in his argument about Syria.
12:46It's almost like I was doing this to train, to learn, to get ready to come back and take, get rid of Assad and take over Syria. And of course, the other thing that we talk about is the challenges of Syria now. I mean, this is a country that's in a real mess. We spent a few days there and, you know, it's amazing and the people are unbelievably resilient, but the country is in an absolute mess and this guy now has to try to turn things around. But one of the things that I think is happening is having to say different things to different audiences. He still does have the jihadi elements who maybe some of them will be very upset with him.
13:23Some will still want to believe in him. He does have the public opinion who basically just want their electricity to work. They want to stop having to carry cash around in plastic bags because the inflation is so rampant. And of course, he wants international leaders to believe that he is a man of peace that can be trusted, that can be respected, and that way get sanctions lifted. So he's speaking to so many different audiences here. Final point for me. I thought what you said that was very interesting about the change of language, because, of course, if you see how al-Qaeda Iraq spoke in 2003, for the language that he would have learned, it would have been the crusader conspiracy with greater Israel, you know, for the extermination of the Muslim people.
14:01and it would all be couched in these grand historical terms. They also believed in these incredible sort of ideas that there was going to be a final last battle at a place called Dabiq where the Christian crusaders would finally be cancelled. And what's happened now is that a bit like the Taliban in Afghanistan, the war on terror seems to have meant, and there's brilliant articles by Hassan Hassan on this, who's the leading authority on al-Qaeda Iraq and Daesh, that what's happened is that a lot of these leaders have decided to shift from international jihad, focusing on the enemy in the United States, to creating their own states and focusing within their own borders.
14:47So the sense is, I'm going to focus on Syria. I'm not going to get into arguments about Lebanon. I'm not getting into arguments about Israel. I'm not getting into arguments about Iraq. I'm not even getting into fights with Turkey. I'm just focusing on Syria. but as you said he's doing it in a very very different way to the taliban because so far at least damascus as we found when we were walking through it is very much still a place where women have heads uncovered where you can drink alcohol where there's a big christian community and that will be a challenge presumably eventually with hardliners and his own organization because they will think wait a second we spent 22 years fighting people have gone and literally again Again and again, hundreds of us have blown ourselves up to fight for the creation of an Islamic state for Sharia, for a particular Salafi vision.
15:39And now he's talking about a sort of multi-ethnic state which recognizes lots of minority religions and allows what would be seen by some of his supporters of pretty liberal Western social code. So what kind of pragmatist is he? How much does he change? And how on earth does he make this transition from being secret terrorist to public politician? And before we get to the interview, just a few people to thank. We had a fantastic crew of Syrians who were looking after us and who were filming, beautifully filmed, I have to say. The new Syrian presidential team has got the hang of where to put the flags and how to get the best angles and all that stuff.
16:19we had a couple of interpreters in the room who helped us get through the interview but since then we've actually had it translated uh by probably the finest arabic speaker in britain which is gerard russell who bory and i both worked with in the past and also a guy a syrian called ibrahim kaduni so i think we've really gone gone the extra mile as they say to make sure that this is translated as well as it can be. And often, as Gerard often says, that sometimes it's what is not said that is as interesting as what is said. And the final shout out I think we should give, Rory, we did hear from more than one person out there about the role that Jonathan Powell's intermediate organisation had played.
17:06Jonathan Powell, who was Tony Blair's chief of staff, then set up this amazing charity, Intermediate, which is about sort of trying to resolve conflict around the world, who's now Keir Starmer's National Security Advisor. But we heard from media people, NGO people, and from Syrian now government people that Jonathan and his team have been very important in this part of this journey from al-Shara and others, from, if you like, war to what they're now trying to do, which is build peace. Here's the interview. You've just been in Saudi Arabia. Tell us what you were doing there, what you were hoping to achieve and what you did achieve.
17:48In the name of Allah, the most beneficent, the most merciful. Welcome to Damascus. To begin with, Saudi Arabia is where I was born. And I had always dreamed of going back there. That's at a personal level. Speaking as a head of state, I wanted my first visit to be to a major Arab country. And so, when I received an urgent invitation from the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, I took him up on it right away. Because I thought it was a good idea for my first visit to be to Saudi Arabia. It's a country with a special status and influence in our region. Does it not feel very strange to be the president now?
18:38You're in this palace that Assad was in. You've been a fighter, you've been a prisoner, you've been a warrior, you've been a leader, and now you're president. Does this not feel very, very strange? I was a fighter, but it wasn't because I wanted to fight. And today, I am the president, but it's not because I wanted to be president. Syrians endured terrible oppression for 60 years. During the past 14 years, their society has been systematically destroyed. People were displaced, murdered, killed with chemical weapons, and tortured in the regime's presence. The regime did not take up on any of the political solutions that were offered to it.
19:30It refused to meet any of the people's demands. After things escalated and fighting began, it was offered lots of political solutions from regional countries and the international community. But it refused any political solution and continued to destroy Syrian society.
19:54So we say in English that the child is father of the man, and sometimes we feel that our childhood helps to make us. Can you share anything about your childhood and the values of your childhood that helped you become the person you are today?
20:15My family comes originally from the Golan, now occupied by the Israeli state. I was born in Saudi Arabia, I lived in Damascus, then went to Iraq, and finally came back to Syria for the sake of the blessed Syrian revolution. So my life had many stages, and during this journey, I was introduced to many ideas. In my childhood, I was like any other child. I lived in a neighborhood that was well-off, middle class or upper middle class. I went to elementary school in Damascus, then middle school and high school. After that, during my first year in college, war broke out in Iraq. I felt that I had to go there.
21:01Our region, generally back then, was going through a difficult time. This was when the Intifada was happening in occupied Palestine, and many Palestinians were killed, especially in 2000 and 2001 and 2002. I'm from a sort of a political family. My father had been a political refugee in Iraq, and he wrote about political issues. For Saudi and Syrian newspapers, we talked about politics in our home.
21:36Your father was a leading figure in the Damascus Spring. And in the end, the Damascus Spring was not successful. What lessons did you learn from that failure? Was the problem for the Damascus Spring ideological or tactical? Generally, there is a strong political culture in Arab societies. But ordinary people have no experience of practical politics because Arab regimes don't let them take part in it. And without that experience, they can't have a correct practical understanding of political reality. Also, in a country like Syria, there wasn't any forum for engaging in practical politics. So the Damascus Spring was born dead.
22:33You were in Iraq as a fighter for three years and then in prison for five years. What was it like being in a prison? How did that change you? What did it teach you? And how did you become this figure that rose so quickly through the ranks of the various organizations that involved in insurgency? As I mentioned, back then, I was 19 years old or so when I started to realize just how much oppression there was in Syria and the wider region. The Palestinian Intifada had a big impact on me psychologically. I felt the need to learn and I read a lot about Damascus and Syria, the incredible depth of its history and the great civilization it represents, as it is the first city known to humans.
23:27I often walked through the alleyways of old Damascus and I could feel history speaking from every corner. But at the same time, I could see the state of the country and the appalling way that the former government was running the country. I felt pain for the burden that Damascus carried and how the regime was abusing Syrian society and this ancient city. I believed that this regime should fall. But at that time, we didn't have the means or the experience. So I decided to go to wherever I could gain some experience. This was at the same time that the Americans were preparing to enter Iraq. There was a strong Arab and Islamic reaction against what the Americans were doing.
24:20So I had two reasons for going there. First, I saw it as an opportunity to learn and gain valuable experience by witnessing a total war, so that I could return to Syria and benefit from the knowledge I would gain. Secondly, I was driven by the passion and youthful spirit I had to defend the people of Iraq from occupation. You may not understand that, but you have to remember that I was a young man then, and I had a particular mindset. So, I went to Iraq and worked with various different groups. Eventually, these groups, one by one, started to shrink and merge into Al-Qaeda. And that is how I found myself with Al-Qaeda.
25:13And tell us about life in prison. In Iraq, I was put in prison early on. I was sent to the infamous Abu Raib prison, where people were being tortured. Then I moved to Bukha prison. After that, I was moved to Kropa prison in Baghdad, and finally to Taji prison before being released. So during this tour of prisons, I got to know a lot of people, and I was myself becoming more politically mature. So I came to see that there was a big difference between what I stood for and some of the ideas that I was hearing from other prisoners, which were really shocking to me. I mean, this was at a time when sectarian conflict was causing a lot of problems in Iraq, and I had no part in that at all.
26:08Even inside the prison, I did not operate the same way as others. As a result, I came in for criticism from some of the other prisoners who believed in what later became ISIS's ideology. During my time in Iraq, especially while in prison, I focused on planning my return to Syria. even before the revolution began. I talked to a few people, particularly some Syrians, who were also in prison. It was by fate that I was released just two days before the Syrian revolution started. As soon as I could, I quickly made arrangements and went back to Syria. I had set some conditions beforehand. First, that we would not repeat the Iraq experience in Syria.
27:00We wouldn't take part in any kind of sectarian war. Our focus was going to be on fighting the regime. I came to Syria with a small group of people, about five or six of us. In a year, this number grew to 5 ,000, and I had reached across almost all Syrian provinces. Al-Qaeda in Iraq were surprised to see that. Then they wanted to do in Syria what they had done in Iraq, which I strongly opposed. This led to a major conflict between us, during which more than 1 ,200 of my people were killed, and I lost 70 % of my forces. We regrouped. We stayed focused on fighting the regime. We also had to tackle some threats on the margin from ISIS and groups like that.
27:58with some foreign issues from drugs and other things.
28:28over these years on that moment. I think this question needs a very long answer. It would take about 10 episodes like this one. I'm willing to have that discussion, but given my current position, a brief answer to such a large question would expose Syria to much criticism. I don't want to put Syria in that situation right now. I'm fully prepared to answer all your questions and also add some points you may not be aware of. But we would need ample time to do justice to this question.
29:09Both of us have been over this very strange journey over 22 years. What do you think it says about the fact we can now sit down and talk when 22 years ago we were fighting? What does this mean about the world? What is crucial is that policies should be looked at again. Policies need to be reviewed if we are to avoid making the same mistakes. I often changed my own decisions based on what I saw around me. I saw things happening that I did not like. And I looked again at how we were doing things. I wasn't a big powerful decision maker then. but neither was I just that passionate young man who found himself a member of al-Qaeda.
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29:56At the same time, Western policies towards the Middle East at that time were the wrong policies and needed to be changed. And we don't want the peoples of the region to bear the consequences of poor decisions every 10 years. Would you say now you want to project yourself to the world as a man of peace? And how do you intend to build relations with countries that remain very, very suspicious? In our region, we are tired of war, and especially in Syria. Humanity cannot live without peace and security. That's what people look for, not war. So there are many things that can bring people together and lead to peaceful solutions without resorting to fighting.
30:50What unites us as a humanity in peace is far greater than what divides us in war. Mr. President, there's a practical challenge which is inside HTS, the old HTS, were many different movements and some of them are more extreme and some of them maybe would be angry that you are sitting down with someone like me. How do you manage, as you become the president, all these old factions, even the more extreme ones? I think saying that sitting here with you wouldn't be allowed is a big exaggeration. It's not as bad as that. I used persuasion and dialogue with all these people until we agreed on a proper and suitable formula so that we could live side by side and achieve the goals of the revolution.
31:43Many people agreed on this, and through experience, awareness, and extensive dialogue and discussion, we reached very positive results without having to fight each other. Some of the people we've been talking to today think that your first statements were very, very positive, very inclusive, but now want to see when is the National Congress going to come? when can they be guaranteed a constitution and when might they hope to see elections? Do you have a clear time frame in your mind for that? Syria is going through many stages. The priority was to stabilize the government to prevent the state institutions from collapsing.
32:34We had the Idlib government ready to take over once we seized Damascus. We allowed three months for this. Then we will move to the next phase involving a constitutional declaration, the National Congress, and the appointment of the presidency. We appointed a president through international conventions after consulting constitutional experts. The victorious forces appointed the president, abolished the previous constitution, and dissolved the former parliament. Now we will move to national dialogue, which will involve a wide range of people, leading to recommendations that pave the way for the declaration of a new constitution.
33:22A temporary parliament will be formed, and this parliament will establish a constitutional committee to draft the new constitution. Mr. President, it must feel to you like a miracle. You've been here 55 days and you went from Idlib suddenly to running the whole country. What was it like in those first few days? What surprised you? What was the most difficult thing about it? What have you learned most about yourself in the last 55 days? We established all the institutions in Idlib. that we would need and we fully prepared ourselves for government in terms of security and institutions and services.
34:10I was certain that a day would come when we would be in Damascus. Two or three years ago I would say in my speech that we would enter Damascus and Aleppo and I would say this wasn't just to raise morale. I was speaking based on data. I relied on data to analyze our own strength, the social cohesion we had in Idlib, and compared that with the regime's situation, its economic collapse, societal fragmentation, and the condition of its army, as well as the interference of foreign countries inside the government. and then you can enter some other countries in the start of the world. Mr. President, when I was a politician, I found it very difficult to go from speaking quite a theoretical way.
35:00And then later, I realized that in the world of social media, Twitter, Facebook, I needed to open up and show my personality more. Is this something that you find a challenge? Is it difficult going from being in a secret organization to then having to share more of your personality with your people? Each stage has its own circumstances. In Idlib, I engaged openly with people managing their affairs and meeting all segments of society. So I was a political figure then too, though not to the extent that I am now in Damascus. As you know, there is a different discourse in times of war and in times of peace.
35:43It depends on the circumstances and what is needed and what is required of people in each stage. So, for example, I've learned to speak about my children. I have two sons, seven and nine. Are you going to be able to talk about your sons and your family? Will this be part of being president? Certainly. In the position I hold today, my family will naturally be part of the picture. I don't mean they will be involved in the work itself, but people have the right to know who my family is, who my children are, and how we live. The requirements of the presidency in Syria today are different from just managing Idlib, and I believe this is a part of the role.
36:34Can you tell us a little bit about your children, their personalities, their ages? I have one wife, although the media often says I have more, but I have just one, and I have three children. We have shared living through hardships, but I made sure to shield them from any potential danger. Before we entered Damascus, I kept any information about them private, as the situation was tough. The war was still ongoing, and security concerns required extreme caution. But in Sudan and Dimashq, this thing is different. Okay, let's just take a quick break. Back in a minute.
37:22Some of the people we've spoken to today, they describe you, I don't know if this translates well, but they describe you as a control freak. Somebody who has to be in control. Do you identify with that? And do you feel that in your position you have to be in control? A person can't really evaluate themselves. It's better to leave judgment to others than to speak about one's own qualities. I like work to be done well and for those doing it to be conscious of their responsibilities. It is not about control. Every task needs to be guided by strong moral values to be done properly. Given the challenges we have been through, if we hadn't maintained those values, we wouldn't be where we are today.
38:09For example, when we were advancing towards Damascus through Aleppo, Hama and Homs, we had a big force of fighters and Syria was deeply divided due to the regime's actions. A major issue could have easily arisen, putting national peace at great risk. If there hadn't been control and respect for leadership decisions, people might have taken actions that would have harmed the public and destabilized social order. I had multiple responsibilities, including military leadership and community management. Military leadership requires a high level of discipline and control, while community management demands a totally different approach.
39:02I don't rule society with military theories. It is a civilian matter that involves distinct methods and tools, unlike military tactics.
39:19What do you think of Donald Trump? In the Middle East, there are many different views on President Trump during his return from 2016-2020. I believe that Trump has brought positive messages during his current administration. He is focused on domestic policy and revitalizing the U.S. economy. He is also interested in peace building in the Middle East, as it has caused quite a bit of instability over the past two decades. I view this as a promising start from President Trump and a positive approach to both the Middle East and future U.S. policy in the region. I am optimistic that if the ideas proposed during his campaign become reality, he will play a big role in achieving global peace, especially in my opinion, if he ends the war between Russia and Ukraine.
40:22Two things that seem to be very serious about Donald Trump. Number one is that he seems to be talking about the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. He's talking about moving Palestinians to Egypt and Jordan. And then the second is the question of sanctions against Syria. What are your opinions on these two things? I believe no power can drive people from their land. Many countries have tried to do it and they have all failed, especially during the recent war in Gaza over the past year and a half. The people endured pain, killing and destruction, yet they refused to leave their land. Over 80 years of this conflict, all attempts to displace them have failed.
41:09Those who left have regretted their decision. The Palestinian lesson that every generation has learned is the importance of holding on to their land. It would be neither wise nor morally or politically right for Trump to lead an effort to force Palestinians out of their land, in my view. Why is he pushing Mexicans out of America now? He is doing the same thing. I believe this is a serious crime that will ultimately fail.
41:45Sanctions were imposed on the previous regime during its systematic crimes, including mass killings. Some documents were made public and the US reacted by imposing sanctions. Now that we have dismantled the regime and its prisons, these sanctions should be lifted, as there is no justification for them after the fall of the regime. What are you doing to get those sanctions lifted? What's your strategy to get those sanctions lifted? There is a strong international consensus with everyone who has visited Damascus recently agreeing that sanctions should be lifted. Syria is currently facing major security challenges.
42:35And one of the direct solutions is through economic development. That is what we are focusing on now. Without economic growth, there can be no stability. And without stability, we risk creating an environment that fosters chaos and insecurity. All of these issues are interconnected and must be addressed together. Mr. President, which country's economic model interests you most? For example, Singapore, Malaysia. Can you name one country which you're looking at and what are you learning from it in terms of economic management? I've reviewed several countries that have experienced economic growth like Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Brazil at certain points, and Rwanda, which overcame significant challenges to its development.
43:33Each country has its unique context, shaped by its specific challenges and stage of development. While we can draw valuable lessons from these examples, we shouldn't blindly replicate them. Instead, we need to adapt and blend these lessons to create and approach that fits Syria's unique situation.
44:23Yes, we inherited an exhausted country, and the regime destroyed everything before we took it over. But this is the challenge we, Syrians, must face. We must rebuild our country, and we do not shy away from this responsibility. There are many issues, but a clear mind tells us we must separate them and address them one by one, and set priorities so we can succeed and grow. Nothing is impossible. Despite difficulties, with God's will, we as Syrians are capable of rising up, rebuilding our country, and making it a regional and global success story in the future, God willing.
45:15Mr. President, One challenge is that many of the people from the old security service, police and army have now left. And it reminds me a little bit of debaithification in Iraq. And debaithification in Iraq was a big problem because the security, the army intelligence, went into the resistance and started fighting the government. How are you going to deal with this problem? Because even today in Damascus, many of the policemen are from Idlib. First of all, there are big differences between the situation in Syria and in Iraq. Comparisons always show up big differences. First, I did not dissolve the Syrian army without having an alternative.
46:01I brought the alternative with me, an existing institution and a military academy that produces officers. There were many defected former officers who are now gradually rejoining the current Ministry of Defense. The former regime's army did not resemble the Iraqi army. It was fragmented with many militias and foreign interventions from Iran and Russia. The army was fragmented and collapsed. A large number of young men were fleeing Syria to escape mandatory conscription. So the army did not have much significance for Syrians. Today, I did not impose mandatory conscription in Syria. Instead, I opted for voluntary enlistment.
46:50And today, thousands are joining the new Syrian army.
46:57When you were a fighter, did you do anything that you regret? I was very careful. I was very careful to ensure that no civilians were harmed in our battles, despite widespread popular calls to target the cities and villages held by the regime. Just as they relentlessly bombed towns and cities outside their control, we refused to do the same. For nearly 14 years, we endured systematic bombing of our villages and towns without ever retaliating against the regime in kind. I focused on targeting the regime's core strengths, such as the army and the security forces and other groups it relied on to fight the people.
47:47I avoided any side battles altogether. It's natural for a person to make mistakes and then correct them. It is very important to be at peace with oneself, to review one's actions at every stage, identify mistakes, and most importantly, not repeat them. This has been my approach to our work. I don't claim to be free of mistakes, quite the opposite. We made some mistakes, but they never reached the point of harming civilians. that can be a threat to people, people or others. What is the psychological impact of living a life which has been secret for 20 years? What does that mean for your mind, your body, your soul to have to live a secret life for 20 years?
48:47It wasn't secret in the sense of being hidden and out of sight around the clock. I had a lot to do with daily meetings all day round, along with the time allocated for public relations. I wasn't hiding in the way some might imagine, except in certain situations involving battles or war, which required caution. Hence, I did not live a life isolated from people at all. I lived alongside them while keeping some matters confidential. Now, in my new position, I don't mind sharing this with everyone because the war conditions we faced before have completely changed and we are in a new phase today. But there was a$10 million bounty on your head.
49:41It must have been very difficult to trust people if the American government was going to pay someone$10 million for killing you. It must have been stressful. stressful it must have been very difficult. Idlib was very open to people. I would meet with delegations from abroad and had many interactions with journalists. I also had regular meetings with universities professors and various ministries. I was committed to serving the people, defending them, building institutions and working towards reaching damascus to topple this regime and set the syrian people free while performing my duties i did not give much consideration to the 10 million dollar bounty i didn't believe anyone would seek this bounty by killing a person who was dedicated to serving the people do you still consider yourself to be a revolutionary.
50:41I believe that a revolutionary mindset cannot build a country. You need a different mindset when it comes to building a country and managing an entire society. For me, the revolution, in its previous sense, ended with the overthrow of the regime. Now, we have moved on to a new phase, which involves rebuilding the country, economic development, striving for regional stability and security, reassuring neighboring countries, and establishing strategic relationships between Syria and Western countries, as well as regional countries. and the foreign countries in the region. Did you always want to be president?
51:31Even when you were a fighter, were you thinking, this is part of politics, I want to run the country? Were you thinking that back then? Whoever lives through an experience like ours doesn't care much about what positions they get. We are living in times where the leader makes the position. It is not the position that makes the leader. We faced major challenges and we needed a high level of moral integrity to reach where we are today. Aiming for the presidency as an end goal is the wrong mentality. We focus on serving the people, regardless of the position we hold. Final question for me. When you see what the Western media says about you, what makes you angry?
52:26And what do you think they don't understand about what you're doing? I don't maybe have time to follow Western media. But Syria is a crucial country with a strategic location that has a global impact. Previously, the regime intentionally displaced people to Europe and the trafficked Cap Tagoon to both Europe and the region. It also used Damascus as a base for steering broader instability in the region because of the very negative role that certain other countries were playing inside Syria. Today, Syria's situation has changed drastically, becoming a new region with a promising future. It will play a major role in regional stability, sustained through economic development.
53:18Syria will also be a key hub in sectors like agriculture, industry and the trade. It is situated on the historic Silk Road. Trade between East and the West will again thrive. The West should reconsider its view of Syria from this angle.
53:42Mr. President, thank you. We really appreciate it. And very good luck on your trip to Turkey tomorrow. A discussion like this requires us to be a bit more relaxed. I mean more than this. Today they took advantage of our fatigue. Next time I will come well rested and fully awake. Inshallah, next time we can sit down. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. well alistair it was quite an event i mean sitting there with him and his with his beautiful gold tie and suit and both of us implicate in the iraq war and him as an al-qaeda iraq man now a presidential leader it was also i suppose probably for listeners frustrating in bits i mean i think as he makes this transition from secret terrorist to public politician there's still many things he's not opening up about i think you said afterwards that one of the things was striking is that we're the first people i think who've got him to admit on record that he has three children but we still don't know you know are they boys they girls what are their ages and i tried a couple of times to prompt him on that and boy was he not quite sharing uh what the details those things are but i think this goes back to this point of being on a journey he actually said and you said when we were there that the wives and he was very adamant he only has one wife because there's there are still all these rumors that he has several wives and he's adamant he's got one wife and three children but you were making the point that wives and children of these leaders are seen as legitimate targets and therefore he went to great lengths to make sure nobody knew not just who they were but where they were but he's now saying so for example when we were there he did an event with his wife his brother who's the health minister which itself raises one or two questions but while we were there he and his wife who is a russian went to the opera and was sort of fated as they as they arrived as they were being seen because people were fascinated to see this guy out with his wife so i think they accept that is going to become part of this.
55:54What I thought was fascinating was how you said in the interview at one point, look, this is a bit weird for me because essentially I'm paraphrasing, you lot were trying to kill me and you felt that we were trying to kill you. And although he says he doesn't speak English, I could tell he was understanding your question even before the interpreter came in. But I think even on stuff like that, he was basically saying, okay, I could really get into a long justification of why I fought in Iraq, why you people were the aggressors, etc. But he just kind of took a deep breath, sat back and started to talk about the future again.
56:31Very, very political. And I mean, doubtless, there'll be people in his team who will be crossed with our tone. But we really hope that we can follow through on his offer, which is that he's offered to do a 10-part series with us on Al-Qaeda. On the history of and the various formulations. If he's serious about that, it would be unbelievable because he is the most senior surviving member of al-Qaeda worldwide. I mean, he's almost the only person who can give us a blow by blow. I mean, most of the other leadership are dead. Yeah, they've all been killed. Yeah. His immediate final boss, I mean, obviously Baghdadi was killed, Abu Musab al-Zaqawi was killed, bin Laden was killed.
57:10But the man that he eventually pledged allegiance to, who was called Zawahiri, was killed by the Americans in Kabul quite recently, after, of course, having lost a wife and children in various different attacks, which relates to your previous point. But there's also, I thought, going back to our days in government, what it really reminds me of, these kind of interviews, in their sort of stiffness and their small clues, is something that we used to call Sovietology, which is when the Kremlin was at its most guarded, you'd have people peering at exactly who was appearing on the podium at the National Day parades and who was up and who was down.
57:50So we're really getting into these sort of tiny micro moments. For example, this very moving moment where he talks about how beautiful the history of old Damascus is and how he used to walk the streets and look at the buildings. And history pours out of every wall. Talking in a much more sort of poetical language. But then when you ask him to talk about his father and his father's revolutionary struggle, he suddenly begins sounding like a sort of 1960s revolutionary theorist. He says, this is not the moment. I don't know how the Arabic was eventually translated, but something like not a moment of revolutionary praxis.
58:25You know, the Hegelian moment had not yet arrived. rather than what I was hoping I would draw out, which is saying, you know, in the end, there needed to be a religious element. You can't just do it on a secular basis. Arab nationalism's finished. I thought what he was trying to say there was that, well, my father was wrong, but he just didn't realise it. But he didn't want to say that his father was wrong because he wanted to respect his father. I guess the fundamental question that was sort of playing around in my head the whole time, I did keep thinking of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, and not because of any, you know, sort of weird comparison, but just can you go from, as I believe Adams and McGuinness did, and I know that some people still won't accept that, but can you go from being somebody who really believes that violence is the way to achieve your objectives, actually to saying, that was then, now is now.
59:14And with him in particular, and this maybe applies more to Martin McGuinness than Gerry Adams because McGuinness became an actual politician with actual political power is whether you can not just make that move psychologically but just as important can you persuade other people that that is real because these world leaders that he's now trying to talk to and persuade to lift sanctions or going to Saudi and trying to get financial support whatever it might be he's got to persuade them that he is genuine in taking a different path and I think one One of the big giveaways there is that moment when I'm trying to get him to focus on his experience in Iraq.
59:54And he says, this is too complicated. There's too much nuance here. Can we do a 10 parts series on it? And that I think relates to your point about different audiences. There is huge pressure on him to say to people like us, I completely reject a lot of my former terrorist comrades. And, you know, he might even be tempted, who knows, to say to people like us, look, these people in the end went too much. too far. They were extreme. They were fundamentalists. They were unrealistic. They didn't understand the modern world. But he can't say that because he's also got another audience, which is his fighters who've been with him for over 20 years, and he doesn't want to insult them.
1:00:33We saw that with the Gerry Adams interview. I noticed, you know, when I tried to say to Gerry Adams, look, I understand, you know, you might want to have killed someone like me, who was briefly a young soldier when you were fighting, but do you regret killing civilians and the Brighton bombing. And he basically said no. And the reason presumably he says no is that he feels a huge allegiance to the people who fought with him and he wouldn't want the headline to be Jerry Adams says that what the IRA did in the 1980s was wrong. So yeah, final question for you, Alice. I mean, I guess the obvious thing that will happen with this interview is that there will be a lot of people, presumably the Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, I can predict immediately, will say we are terrorist sympathisers who've just given a huge platform to the former head of al-Qaeda Syria and allowed him to speak and we weren't tough enough we didn't challenge him enough and that we're like a George Galloway going out to see Saddam Hussein what was it Galloway said about Saddam Hussein again I salute your strength your courage and your indefatigability that's right we didn't do that we did not do that I don't know about that it's his age-old problem and I think one of the things I like about doing this podcast and doing the interviews the way that we do them, I've been so through the pain barrier with most of our media, I don't care what they think about the way we do the interview.
1:01:54We've got more time than we expected, but I think if we'd have just sort of said, okay, then come on, tell us, how many suicide bombers did you send into action? He's going to say what he said anyway. And, you know, you and I both raised an eyebrow when he said, you know, I always made sure that civilian population was protected, etc, etc, etc. So it's quite hard to square all that. Look, the other thing I think people should be aware of is that his past we know about. And the people we spoke to in Syria, lots of the people we spoke to in Syria. So listen, we know who he was. We know what he was.
1:02:29But let me say, he is better than what we had. Because what we had, we had no hope that things were ever going to improve because they were just a kleptocratic dictatorship. What we have now, at least we have a bit of hope that it can be different. And the question then is how much time does he have as a, quote, normal political leader to try to get a country on its feet? This economy has been absolutely shattered. And the stakes couldn't be higher. So my Syrian friends who are absolutely secular, liberal, utterly opposed to that terrorist tradition are saying, give the guy a chance you've got to give him a chance it's the only chance we've got we have to lift sanctions we have to take this opportunity and a sort of warning us not to spend our whole time saying nobody can change this guy's a terrorist because their view is if you take that line Syria's completely doomed yeah absolutely I think the the other thing that some of the experts would have been maybe listening for that they would want to have heard more about is the route to elections.
1:03:36Still, I think, quite vague. The interpreter in the room did look slightly terrified when translated by a question about whether he was a control freak. I think the interpreter was worried that they would think that was their view rather than our view. But we did hear that a lot, didn't we? We heard a lot of people saying this is a guy who has to be in control. But when he did cross the border with a handful of people, very interesting, One of them was the foreign minister that I mentioned, who we met in Davos, and he was in the room while the interview was going on. And they are clearly very, very close.
1:04:12I mean, they were talking before, they were talking afterwards, the fact that he was there. So I think that's a very, very interesting and important relationship that people will be keeping an eye on, as it were. Anyway, I hope people enjoyed that. I hope that they found it interesting, educative, and anything else. The hope is sincere when he says that he'd like us to go back and do 10 episodes on the history of Al-Qaeda. Thank you, Alistair. Bye-bye. See you soon. Bye.
1:05:01from the Wall Street Journal, Barron's Market Watch and Investor's Business Daily. Because fortune favors the ambitious.
From the publisher
How did Ahmed al-Sharaa go from an imprisoned al-Qaeda fighter to the leader of Syria? What is the psychological impact of living a secret life for over twenty years? What is the future of Syria?
Ahmed al-Sharaa joins Rory and Alastair to discuss all this and more.
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Translators - Ibrahim Kadouni & Gerard Russell
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