121. Yulia Navalnaya: The Woman Who Could Bring Down Putin

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0:19Hello and welcome to The Rest Is Politics, leading with me, Rory Stewart. And with me, Alistair Campbell. And today we're joined by Yulia Navalnaya. And she has become a very prominent figure following the death of her husband. Alexei Navalny, the Russian opposition leader. And Alexei Navalny has had an extraordinary life, which ended in a penal colony in which he died in very mysterious circumstances, as far as his family's concerned, murdered by Vladimir Putin, and certainly having been the victim of a Russian chemical attack on a plane earlier, which he barely recovered from in a hospital in Germany.

1:00just a quick introduction to who Alexei Navalny was to remind people he was born in Soviet era Russia to a father of Ukrainian descent trained as a lawyer entered politics in the early 2000s with something called the Yablokor party then became very well known for anti-corruption work so he established an anti-corruption foundation in 2011 and one of the things he was very very quick to do was to use social media so he put out some of the very earliest stuff showing Putin spending hundreds of millions on building a palace. He drew attention to the fact that Putin was wearing watches worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.

1:41He exposed oligarchy and essentially created the first real portrait of a Putin gangster state. Very, very dangerous. He courted controversy. So some of his critics accused him of having Russian nationalist views, which he later moved away from and very much embraced democracy. He had a connection to Yale University, where he studied as a young global leader and began to study social media and organizing. 2020, as I said, he was poisoned by Novichok, by the Russian intelligence services, on a flight. Returned to Russia in 2021, where he was immediately arrested and given a nine-year prison sentence.

2:22He was sent to a series of penal colonies, finally one up in the Arctic Circle, and died in February 2024. Over to you, Alistair. Essentially, Julian Navalny is now carrying on his fight. She was an assistant for much of this time. She was a colleague as well as a wife. I met the daughter, Dasher, in Oslo a few months ago, incredibly impressive young woman. She too is trying to carry on her father's name and the fight against Russia. So lots to talk about. And I think important to remember, in fact, she'll emphasize right from the start that he didn't die, he was murdered. That is a very, very important part of their fight.

3:05And they've also produced this book called Patriot, which I think is going to be an important part of their fight going forward. So I don't know where she was when we interviewed her. They keep her movements pretty quiet for fairly obvious reasons. But I was in France and Rory was in Switzerland. And here you go. Meet Yulia Navalnaya. Welcome to The Rest is Politics Leading with me, Rory Stewart. And with me, Alistair Campbell. And we're absolutely thrilled to have Yulia Navalnaya, who is probably more well known than she wants to be, if I can put it like that. She's well known because her husband, Alexei Navalny, was one of the foremost critics of Vladimir Putin.

3:47He is now dead for his troubles. But Yulia and also her daughter, Dashu, who I met in Oslo recently, are keeping up the fight. They met, she and Alexei met on a bus in Turkey when they were both in their early 20s. And they've been on quite a journey ever since. So Yulia, thank you very, very much for your time. It's lovely to see you. Thank you very much, Alistair. And it's a great pleasure to be on your podcast. I should be honest I have some friends in Great Britain and so before you suggested me to join you they told me, many of them that they hear your podcast and it's the best political podcast in Great Britain so I'm very thrilled but from the other side I'm very scared but still it's a great honor to join you there is just a small remark you said that my husband was dead but I would say he was killed by Vladimir Putin.

4:49And I will continue to repeat it. It's very important to know that Vladimir Putin is not just a dictator. He is a mafia boss. He is murder. He is a war crime. And it's very important to remember about this. Thank you. Thank you. Julia, tell us a little bit about yourself and your childhood and where you grew up and what your parents did and how you formed as a character wow we started from such a long long time uh big things well i was born in moscow i spent all my life in moscow i never thought that i will change the country of living i wanted to live in my own country i love my country like my husband very much.

5:42I was born in a very simple Soviet family. I graduated from a university where I studied international relations. I worked a little bit in a banksphere, but then very soon after that I married to my husband. He started to work in politics, and we just realized that because of searches because of the all political pressure which we got very very quickly and many years ago I cared about family more and I was very happy to help my husband to be very confident in it I hope that he knew that he had a strong back and I was trying not to be you know just think about family. Of course, it was my priority.

6:36It's still my priority, especially now after Alexei's murder. But still, of course, it was all the time like sharing the views, understanding that it's very important everything what my husband had been doing for a long, long time. When you were growing up, were you somebody who had strong political views? You know, me and Alexei, we grew up in Soviet Union. Our childhood was in Soviet Union. But our formation, as I can call it, when we were teenagers, so Soviet Union fallen. So we are children of perestroika, I could say. And Alexei and me, we have very simple families, normal families, but families who were very involved in politics because there were years when everybody was involved in politics in Russia.

7:36But there were like few years, unfortunately. Yulia, what did your mother do? What did your father do? What were their jobs? When were they born? Where did they come from? My mom is engineer. She was born in Moscow. My father was born in Moscow as well. He's engineer as well too. My father died when I was 18. And my mom, she still lives in Moscow. When I met Dasha in Oslo, she was telling me that Alexei's parents still live in Russia. They are. Both of mine and Alexei's parents, they are still in Russia. That's right. How do they feel when they know that the regime murdered their son? They still have to live there.

8:21They still presumably have friends there. I presume that your mother now probably is quite worried about you. I just wonder how your family deal with living in Russia. Well, it's better to attack them. But of course, you're right. But I don't think it's about living in Russia. because Russia is their home country. It's about terrible situation and terrible tragedy, which happened in their life. But the old people, they spent all their life in Russia. They don't want to change country. My mom still works, and I think that it keeps her to be strong. She has a lot of friends, and to leave country now, I don't think it's a choice for her.

9:08And for Alexei's parents, I think that the same, but also, of course, it's very important for them to be close to Alexei, to the cemetery. And of course, like for old people, it means a lot. Tell us a little bit about the beginning of Alexei's political life. Tell please the listeners a little bit about how he started, what he got involved in, why he got involved. he was all the time involved in politics a lot and we when we met we discussed politics a lot i think it was one of the reasons why he married me because it was interesting for him to discuss politics with close friends and then girlfriend and then wife and i interested in politics in my all my life as well.

10:01And when Vladimir Putin became a president the first time, he just came to me one day and said, like, you know, I really probably remember this moment. Like, you know, I decided to go to be more involved in politics, like not kitchen talks, but to participate to one of the, at that time, pro-democratic parties. And I want to do something because I'm against this regime from the first step. I'm against Putin and it's very important for me to do this. Was there ever a time when you or he thought that Putin might be moving in a democratic direction? or did he decide very, very early on that he was as bad as he became?

10:54It's a very good question because a lot of people were very excited when Putin became the president or I would say even in power, like prime minister the first time because comparing to Yeltsin, who still, we should agree, brought democracy, but after that there were some problems with him. But still, Putin was very young, very active, very enthusiastic. and people who were less involved in politics and just seen this young, strong, full of strength men and they were hoping that it would change a lot. But it wasn't with us like this because, of course, as people who were a little bit more involved in politics, we knew that everybody knew, but still, Putin is KGB officer and all this structure, which was in Soviet Union, it was obvious that he's going to bring it back to Russia.

11:57So no, we never thought, in our family, we never thought that there could be any positive changes after Putin became a president. What sort of ruler is Vladimir Putin? Is he modeling himself on a traditional communist leader like Stalin or on a czar or on a mafia boss? I mean, how would you describe the style of leadership? Well, let's be honest. I've never seen Vladimir Putin. Probably it's for the best. But from my point of view, nobody wants to be called a mafia boss. Of course, he wants to be a leader of country. he behaves now like czar of course it's obvious that he takes a lot of decisions just by him on and it's uh you know like this probably she he is asking for some kind of advice but people around him just want to be on the same side and to show him their full loyalty that's why you know everything what he is asking for their doing.

13:12He wants to be a kind of really like one leader of the country. It's obvious that he understands that he's just one person. And I believe that he believes in it, that he's just one person who can bring Russia to beautiful future. And And of course, it's very dangerous and it's very awful because when the one person stays in power more than 25 years, by the way, could you mention? Of course, you believe in everything you do. Of course, you understand your position like the ones, we can call it whatever, leader, side, president. But you just understand that you are able to do whatever you want to stay in power, to keep your power.

14:06Yulia, when did you first fear that Alexei's political activity might actually lead to him being such a target that the regime would murder him? When did that first cross your mind that he was swimming in very dangerous waters? You know, as we started our conversation from our young years, I would say I almost never thought about or had any fear because we grow up together. It's not just about our age. It's about Alex's political growing. That's why I seen it not like, you know, it became suddenly. I seen it from day to day. Like he became popular blogger, like he became the blogger who has supporters, like he became the person who established small NGO, anti-corruption NGO, like he became candidate of mayor of Moscow, like he became the person who established the biggest NGO, anti-corruption NGO in Russia.

15:18like he started to have not like you know couple thousands of supporters but a dozen of thousands then hundreds of thousands and then millions of people who were just following him like he became presidential candidate it was like you know so step by step that at every point of time i just had this feeling like i understand that it could be dangerous, but I knew that it's Alexei's life, that he was really a person who really believed in everything he was doing. That's why, you know, I just realized very quickly that it's very important to support him. He's doing the right things. He wants to make Russia a better place.

16:12He wants to do all the world in a better place. That's why I just wanted to support him. And I almost never had any fears, probably once or twice, but it's not about arrests or searches. And what did you learn from how social media has changed the world? You talked about being a blogger, but now we're in a world of Facebook, of Twitter, of all these type of communications. how does this change the way that politics is done in russia it changed a lot because for example my husband is a very good example to explain it and he started like blogger and like in live journal if you remember it was such a platform and it was very popular in russia then he started many of other social media but especially twitter he really liked twitter and i think that he was very good in it and twitter was a very good platform and i liked it very much because it was all the time very easy to get information very fast it was very easy to find all the news and it was obvious that people who write on twitter and have a lot of subscribers they are very good in you know putting together all the thoughts when it was able just to put short tweets and I just loved it and I loved Alexei's jokes and I think that he did with social media very well but it's also because or coming back to your question about how social media has changed like the world and many other things like other medias for example again about my husband why it happened because when he became a popular politician he was blocked from everywhere that's why he has no choice to use new social media and he was in this case very lucky to live this time because otherwise you know when you have just radio blocked tv blocked and then you don't have any other sources.

18:30But at the time, he started to do politics, and he very quickly was blocked from everywhere. He all the time was trying to new sources from which he is able to bring this information to his supporters and to attract new people. For example, when we were coming back from Germany after his poisoning, he told me very seriously, and I was a little bit scared that he believes in TikTok. TikTok is a very big platform now, and he's going to develop and put a lot of attention in TikTok because he thinks that it's a very important platform now in Russia, and it's very important for him. Why I was scared?

19:14Because he usually tries to involve me in such kind of things, and I was just expecting how I need to do a lot of TikToks to think, to open my mouth or to change my cloth probably every day. Judy, you said that when you were in Germany after his poisoning, was there no part of you that thought there is a very, very high chance when he leaves, they've tried to kill him, he survives, he gets treated in Germany, Angela Merkel visits him, it's a big part of the book that you've done together. but when he went back there must have been a very large part of you that thought this is like him imposing a death sentence on himself they are going to kill him did you ever try to say to him if this costs you your life is it worth doing you're probably asking me this question because you never met Alexei because I knew that it's very important for him It's not just words.

20:20To come back to Russia, to be the example for all these people. It's not, you know, about like, usually you're doing some things, of course, to show the example. He wanted to be this example. He was this example for all these people. And he was sure that people are watching him. And he knew that he must be in this first row. Of course, we knew that it could be dangerous. Of course, we are not crazy. And Alexei wasn't crazy at all. He was very rational in a good way. And he, of course, I think he weighed all the risks. But, you know, sometimes the history makes the other direction. Of course, we knew and it was really very realistic that he would happen to be in prison.

21:22But about, you know, murdering, we never thought or probably try not to think. Tell us about his vision for Russia. What if he had become the leader? What would he want Russia to be over the next 5-10 years? You know, it's very easy to answer, because comparing to all democratic countries like the United States or United Kingdom or countries in European Union, you have different political parties. You have supporters in these parties, and people have competitions in elections. In Russia, the situation is absolutely different. We have Vladimir Putin, who is a dictator, who is in power for 25 years.

22:12And the easiest thing to explain, what my husband wanted for Russia, to become back a democratic country, with freedom of speech, with fair elections, with people who won in elections. And sometimes, probably, those people are not very pleasant for you, but it should be changeable. So Alexei just wanted democratic, pro-European Russia. What is the state of the opposition in Russia now? To say the truth, it's almost not possible to do anything inside Russia against Putin because you will be thrown in prison. You know, probably the case is when people happen to be in prison just for standing on the street alone, like lonely protest, with the sheet of papers where it's written, no war.

23:14And they are taken in prison for these. They could be in prison for likes in social media. They could be in prison, of course, for the post in social media. That's why, of course, the situation inside Russia is very difficult. Not speaking political situation, I mean, for position. That's why the most loud speakers now, of course, are in exile. Okay, Yulia, Rory, quick break, and then back for more.

23:48Help us, Yulia, when you think about who could replace Alexei and what the opposition could look like in the future, What is a model or a way of understanding how over the next five or ten years people can challenge Vladimir Putin and create a different Russia? It's not about person. It's about procedure. So we need to do everything by ourselves and to ask world community as well to help us. But of course, I understand it's about Russian people, first of all, to make everything Vladimir Putin will gun. And after that, it's about fair elections. As I have already said, I'm not thinking about persons.

24:29I'm thinking about fair elections and procedures to make all these procedures democratic. And how do you do this? I mean, it seems to be very difficult. He kills his opponents. He doesn't allow free elections. So what is your plan for the next 5-10 years? You know, by now it's very difficult to plan anything because while Vladimir Putin is in power, everything is absolutely unpredictable. Nobody could, not nobody, but a lot of people, probably more than one million people left country after the war has started. I don't think those people ever thought to happen in another country. That's why it's very difficult to speak about some kind of plan.

25:16Let's be honest, nobody has this plan. But if I even had this plan, I wouldn't tell you because of many reasons. But it's not possible now. For me, it's absolutely different. We need to be loud. We need to attract all the attention to Russia. I think that last years, Russia had been forgotten, and it's very, very dangerous, because still Russia is a huge country. There are a lot of people who live there, and to bring, and to discuss, and to show them that democratic countries, and to have democracy in a country is very important, it was very important. But in many reasons, I don't know really why it happened, but in many reasons it happened.

26:07And I see my main aim to do everything every day. You know, speaking with you to remind about Russia, to be in the kind of conferences, doing like some kind of statements and so on. To be more loud and to remember what's going on in Russia in a political way and Vladimir Putin is a dictator. Do you not feel at risk? I understand, but I think that my husband taught me not to think about it too much. It's important to do what you think is right and continue to do. Of course, after Alexei's murder, I feel even much more responsibility than before. Because before he was like politician and I was his wife and also a big supporter.

27:03But now, of course, I feel responsibility for him, for our children, for our country to do whatever I can to stop everything what Vladimir Putin had already done, is doing and will do. How do your children understand his murder? How did they experience it? How do they think about it now? How do they think about the risk which you're taking? I think that they worry about me very much. I understand it. Dasha, whom Alistair has met, she has already grown up. She's more different than daughter, so she supports a lot. She really supports me everywhere in everything I'm doing. She's smart. She is a person to whom I now can come and ask her advice.

28:02Zahar, he's just 16. He's a teenager. That's why he has his special view of life. He's very nice. He's very supportive as well. And it's difficult for me and, of course, for them. You know, we were a very good family. When we were four of us, we were together. And, of course, just realize that you don't have your father any longer. It's very difficult for any child. For example, Zahar, he saw Alexei the last time when he was 12. And now he's 16. So all his teenager years, which are very hard even for a child in a full family with normal life, are very hard. And for the heart, it's much more harder, I understand it.

29:03I'm trying to support him as well as I can. Yeah, as you say, I met Dasher at an event in Norway. And I have to tell you, you should be incredibly proud. I cannot remember the last time I was so impressed meeting somebody so young and so clever and smart and also just had an incredible wisdom about her, given everything that had happened. And she was telling me, for example, that she heard about her father's death kind of from the news. And she also said, and I wonder if I can ask you this question as well, that she's not sure if she's grieved. And I just wonder whether you've properly grieved and what that was like or whether you've just been so propelled into feeling you have to carry on the fight.

29:55Thank you so much for your current words about Dasha. As you understand, for every parent, it's very important to hear such words about their child. I'm very proud really and as you said she knew the news about Alexei's death from news the same with me because he was in such situation and in such far penal colony that it wasn't possible to get anything from him especially last half a year it was very strong censorship His lawyers were imprisoned last autumn when he was in prison. So it was like really, really complicated. And they sent him to such a far penal colony that it wasn't possible even to visit him every day.

30:52So I got everything from the news as well. And what about grief? Do you feel that you've grieved or are you still living with it every day? um well it's it's difficult to explain i don't think that i'm in this kind very want to be very open and very emotional um i think that of course it will stay with me or not i think i'm sure that it will stay with this grief with me all the life.

31:29But life is continuing and I need to do everything what is possible, you know, to cope the grief. All this work, all this Alexis legacy, it helps me a lot, of course. Julia, can you tell us a little bit about this penal colony? Where was it? What were the conditions he was living in? What sort of place was it? Who else was in the colony? What other kinds of prisoners there were? How his daily life was? I will start from then, probably from the last penal colony, because he has changed several. Not he, but he was moved from one to another. But you ask me a really funny question, who else was in this penal colony?

32:11Because usually when we speak about penal colony, we can imagine the group of people who are living together or work together. we can imagine nice for example sport yard which we usually see in american hollywood movies it's not the same in russia sometimes it's the same but for my husband they did the most severe conditions which could be it was a small room a really small like three to three meters then it was another room not a yard just another room where he was able to walk this room just didn't have a roof that's it and he wasn't allowed all the food they brought him to this room he wasn't allowed to lie on the bed all the day and he wasn't allowed almost wasn't allowed to have any meetings, like we have short meetings and long meetings with his family, for more than one year, he wasn't allowed to make telephone calls, like, at all.

33:31All the letters from him and to him were censored. For example, speaking about Dasha, she wrote him about her university, about courses which she's going to take for another semester. And they just burned these letters saying that it's like a kind of things which he couldn't get. I'm not speaking about my letters. I could write anything, just very simple things about my regular life, but they could censor it. I think, of course, it was about isolation. They wanted to isolate him from the people. They knew that he is so charismatic. He is such a strong politician. He is very good in convincing people.

34:27He is very nice in speaking people. That's why there were just few people all the time, the same people around him. That's it. And there were no any prisoners with whom he was able to communicate at all. He all the time was alone. The book that you mentioned, which I've read and enjoyed, just tell me how that was put together and whether you see it as part of his ongoing fight. It sort of feels like it's both backward-looking and forward-looking. Do you see that book as being a very, very important part of an ongoing campaign? Of course, absolutely. This book, it's very important in general. It's about his legacy.

35:15It's about how many people now can read about him through his view about our country and to understand how what a person he was speaking about the details how it was like picked all together and so on it was very difficult because a part of the book he wrote very fast because he was really good writer also in Germany but then it was really really complicated to get some kind of these diaries, the part with diaries from the prison, of course. Just tell our listeners how that happened, how you were actually able to get those extracts out. Unfortunately, I couldn't tell you because it could bring some people to danger.