126. Israel, Gaza, and the United Nations (Francesca Albanese)

28:58I have many more Israeli friends now than I've ever had after I became a special rapporteur. Before, no, I had probably about six Israeli friends back then. Not many. So Francesca, let me just develop this a little bit more, because you're very, very known as a great champion for the human rights of Palestinians and particular people in Gaza. And you've been under a lot of attack from people accusing you of being anti-Semitic. So I wanted to give you an opportunity to talk a little bit about your empathy for Israelis, your understanding of their position before, of course, we return to what you want to talk about also, which is your empathy for Palestinians and for Gaza.

29:40Yeah, no, but let me say, let me say, because it's shocking that today the word antisemitism is no longer what it was for me three years ago. And I mean, I was sick in my stomach, sick in my stomach the first time I was accused on the media and all of a sudden it was all over social media for me. And being told you're an antisemite is so deep, it gets straight into my guts because first of all, first of all, for the record, But just, I mean, anti-Semitism is hatred or discrimination against Jewish people because they're Jewish. Now, the criticism or the allegations of anti-Semitism against me have nothing to do with it.

30:25I'm accused to be an anti-Semite because I criticize Israel, not for what it is, but for what it does. I mean, I couldn't care less if Israel were ruled by Buddhists or Christians or Muslim or atheists as it was when Israel was created. It doesn't make any difference, the religion of the people who are in government. It's the fact that Israel acts against the law that is a problem for me. So the weaponization of antisemitism is extremely dangerous, surely for the Palestinians and everyone who stands in solidarity with them, but for the Israelis first and foremost. And let me tell you two things, two things.

31:04When I was in university, I was at the forefront. I was the face, I was the public face of a struggle against the administration of the law faculty because they wanted to put a commemorative plate to Giovanni Gentile, who was the minister of education at the time in a Mussolini government, who signed the racial laws, the laws which in 1935 banned Jewish people from many professions. So where this is the act, the legal act that literally kicked them out of civil life. This is the institutionalization of discrimination against them. So because of this, I said, we cannot have this. This is a shame.

31:46This is a stain on our university. And I don't want to be part of a university that does that. So you see my sense of what did I have to do with it? I went up to talk to Elio Tohaff, who was back then the chief of the Jewish community in Italy, the chief rabbi in Italy. And I said, we need your signature on this appeal because they want to do this and that. And he said, look, I'm not going to sign anything because this is the past. But we won the battle. We won the battle because me and others mobilized so many people. So this is just to tell you that the past. Then when I'm told in 2022, look, because I knew that this would come to me as well, because my predecessor, Michael Link, had been tormented, with this accusation like anyone in the human rights community who dares criticizing Israel and Michael Link's predecessor Richard Falk is a Jewish American himself and he was condemned as a self-hating Jew for saying what I say because from John Dugard, Richard Falk, Michael Link and myself for 22 years, 23 years now, this mandate has said the same thing that Israel violates international law because it maintains an unlawful occupation and now it's also said by the International Court of Justice.

33:03Finally, has everything changed in the political spectrum now that it's said that Israel maintains an unlawful occupation that must be dismantled totally and unconditionally? The military presence, the settlements and the control of natural resources, the settlers shouldn't be there and instead they are allowing to roam freely, tormenting everyone in Palestine. So this is the context. So when I was told the first time, I saw that it was all over the news and including in my own country, I saw my head of special rapporteur rolling down the hill and I said, that's okay, but I don't want my mom to read this, you know, that I'm an anti-Semite.

33:42So what shall I do? And this is where the Jewish scholars I had been engaging with, like Professor Ramos Goldberg or late Professor Alon Confino, who passed away recently, who said, Francesca, welcome to the world. This is it. This is what we were talking about months ago. Because as soon as I became a mandate holder, what did I do was the following. I said, in my speaking to the Human Rights Council, saying I could be a special rapporteur, if you like, I said, I will engage constructively with Palestinians and Israelis and with Jewish community and Palestinian community in the diaspora. And before even becoming a special rapporteur, when it was in the air that I was among the nominees, I really had this door to door policy to Israeli scholars, like lawyers and the Israeli human rights organization saying, my predecessors have not engaged with you proactively and you have not engaged with them, can we change course of action?

34:46And I remember the head of Bethsaem back then, with whom I've developed a very good relationship, said, why would you be interested in doing that? Because we need bridges. We need to unify people around the basic concept of humanity. We cannot keep on working in silos. We need as a human rights community to be able to break the silos. It has always been difficult now. It's more difficult than before. But so there has been such a mobilization among Jewish people, Jewish organizations and Jewish scholarship against the weaponization of antisemitism that is formidable. When I became a special rapporteur, the IHRA, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, this definition that doesn't define a thing other than create the ambiguity to confuse criticism of the state of Israel for what it does to the Palestinians and antisemitism.

35:42This had already been quite advanced and 350 Jewish scholars had signed another declaration on antisemitism, the Jerusalem Declaration on Antisemitism, which I mean, others criticize, but at least it says criticizing the state of Israel for its policies and practices toward the Palestinians is not antisemitic because antisemitism is discrimination against Jewish people as Jews, like discrimination against Muslim people as Muslim is Islamophobia, etc, etc. So these people had reached out to me to say, can you help us? Because there is this push to have the IHRA definition being approved by the UN and we have tried to be part of the debate and we can't.

36:23So this is how I became friends with these people. And these are the people who have helped me understand that I should keep a straight back and look straight ahead. What's the purpose of this mission, this human rights mission? So it's not about me. They can keep on offending and insulting and vilifying as much as they want. But they will remain as an Israeli friend told me back then in one of my runs. They continue to do so. They say, Francesca treats them for what they are, dogs barking at an airplane. And here we are. But that, if I go back to my question, your relationship with Israel sounds like it's very, very difficult.

37:02And they will say, even based upon what you've just said, that it will play into that agenda that says she's basically somebody who is against Israel. They will say that. You've had to live with that. Have there been any moments where you have said things because of the emotion that drives you and because of the passion you have for the work, that you've thought afterwards, maybe that was over the top? Has that ever happened to you? During my term as a special operateur? Not substantively, but probably strategically, yes. But at the same time, I mean, it depends. It depends on what the strategy is.

37:38Yes, of course. So what is your strategy then? My strategy is to remind the member states of their obligations under international law, not to recognise as lawful the consequences of any legal endeavour and not to aid and assist in any possible way. And how hard is that when Israel operates as it does and seems to have such unwavering support, particularly the United States? Yeah, I mean, I understand to an extent Israel. What I do not understand is the rest of the world. And I'm unfair here because the rest of the world is not a monolith. And there are member states who are clearly against it.

38:16And in this big realm, there are those who take a stand. there are a few but they take a robust stand and measures and steps and then there are the vassals of the system that is represented by Israel and the United States and it has never been as clear as that so in retrospect could I have been more diplomatic toward countries like Germany and France probably yes probably yes but would I have been able to reach any results no because they are in an obstinate and willful ignorance of the facts and the legal qualifications that as a mandate holder I bring to the fore. And let me say, this is not new to me.

39:02It has nothing to do with who holds this mandate because Israel has never cooperated with anyone in this position. You think that it's me not being able to enter the occupied Palestinian territory? Sorry, I didn't answer the question. Last time I went to Palestine, because after leaving Palestine in the end of 2012, I've returned regularly for work and research. And the last time I went was in March 2022, because an Israeli friend called me and he said, Francesca, you are on the nominees by the Human Rights Council. So if you want to visit Palestine last time, go now, because it will be impossible.

39:39And I said, no, no, that's not true. But yeah, let me take this opportunity. And it was very telling. But this is another story. But Israel has banned special rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territory from entering the occupied Palestinian territory, which is against the law. Israel doesn't have that power. Since 2008, Professor Richard Falk was arrested, detained and deported in 2008. So how do you work? How do you operate? Well, the fact that I've lived there and I've done so much work and research, including in the following years, allowed me to have something that, for example, some of my predecessors didn't have living experience in the occupied Palestinian territory, which I knew fairly well.

40:25However, however, I can tell you I was an expert on forced displacement of Palestinians. So I knew very well the history, the 100 years of deprivation, a violation of the right of self-determination of the Palestinians because the Palestinians have this right from even before it was codified as a universal right and that's been violated. And I knew how Palestinians had been displaced, not just from what is today Israel, from the occupied Palestinian territory and from the Arab region. I mean, the Palestinians continue to be forcibly displaced. I was not an expert on the occupied Palestinian territory.

41:00All what I know is something that comes from study and investigations. I mean, in 1000 years, I can promise I had to really like for many, many Westerners, I had to bang my head in the face of what is happening to understand that is genocide. Because in the beginning, in the beginning, I was among the special rapporteurs who would say, no, no, no, no, we cannot say that. We cannot say that. It's too much. and then one of my colleagues told me if not even even you, even you struggle understanding what it is and I had back then Israeli historians saying why don't you speak out, you see what's happening, these are genocidal statements and it's an obligation to prevent genocide so the moment a genocidal statement is made, there is an immediate obligation of states to react to prevent genocide and it took me weeks to get there it really took me weeks but then of course it took me months to investigate and understand okay Francesca we're really quick break and then back in a minute

42:08so there is a big sea change happening in the attitude of Israel and the United States and the Gulf states towards Israeli operations and you can see that there are many people in those places saying, oh, Israel was very successful against Hezbollah, much more successful than people thought. It was very successful against Iran. Maybe we should be mounting bigger attacks against the Houthi. What is happening here? What's this new discourse, this new language which we're hearing, which is saying Israel has proved that if you're really aggressive against these groups, they're much weaker than people think.

42:48We can make much more progress. We can make Israel's security better. I have to say that this question reassures me because when you said sea of change, I thought you would take me to the silver lining, the very tiny and fragile silver lining out there, the possibility of changing the world around Israel and Palestine because of the global modern mobilization that is taking place. But no, no, I want to focus on what you say, the sea of change in the abandonment of that posture, that performative posture of believing in a peace process that can lead to the establishment of an independent and sovereign Palestinian state that has been eroded over 30 plus years of pretense of negotiation.

43:37but also what is very, very important for me as a lawyer is that what has happened in the past 16 months risks to be a nail in the coffin in a multilateral order premised upon respect of international law as a system of rules, as a system of mechanisms that are universally agreed upon and universally respected. Francesca, can I come in on this? So yes, but we're in a world where the Trump administration, even inside the United States, is increasingly saying things which are rejecting international law, rejecting domestic law, challenging judges, supporting far right groups in Germany, apparently being more sympathetic to Vladimir Putin about the invasion of Ukraine, talking about turning Gaza into a Riviera and expelling the population.

44:35The United States rejects rulings of the International Criminal Court. The International Court of Justice is defunding UNRWA. The U.S. ambassador is saying that there's no such thing as Palestine. This is just Judea and Samaria. So is the danger not now that increasingly this is an anachronism? You're talking about a world of the 1990s and the 2000s, And now we've entered a new age, a new age where really actually the new rulers of the world don't care about international law. We have a say in Italian that, I mean, in Latin, in fact, history doesn't take leaps. I mean, we didn't get here all of a sudden.

45:15It's not that Trump brought about a revolution. It's an evolution. Because I can tell you, the dismantlement of the international law or the international multilateral order, premise upon international law, as I was describing, has been happening for decades. And it's the moment you do not respect the basic principles that you cannot declare were against another state, either because you are being attacked by the state or because there is an authorization of the use of force by the Security Council. These are the only circumstances, the Turkish circumstances under which you can legally use force under international law.

45:52So already after 9-11, we saw the open, open assault against the international multilateral order that then has continued to be eroded bit by bit. Israel has been violating international law for many decades. So what happens now is an acceleration of the impunity that has been tolerated. And now, again, as I said, the mask has fallen off. I mean, the US administration doesn't even have to pretend to respect international law. But let me be very clear. The genocide in Gaza and the genocide of the Palestinian people that started in Gaza and it has expanded is something that was enabled financially, politically and militarily by the previous administration.

46:46So what is Trump is doing at the international level? It's extremely scary, scary and should worry all of us. But certain things when it comes to Palestine are a destruction in a sense that what I told as I landed to Copenhagen and I out of the plane I read about the declaration by Trump about the Gaza Riviera because since then every morning this part of the world has waken up with a crazy statement about some international matter but on that day I said this is absurd this is surreal doesn't mean that it's not dangerous it's unlawful saying such a thing is unlawful. First and foremost, it's also irresponsible because it's going to trigger instability across the region and is immoral because these people that have already back then 18 ,000 children had been killed.

47:39So what are you talking about, President Trump? So this was my reaction. But I would like to push this forward, Rory, because one of the scariest images of this administration are not even concerning Palestine. It's what's happening to the United States itself, which is so influential that what happens at the domestic level has an impact for all of us, unfortunately, in this order. But when I saw President Trump announcing the cutting of access to sport for transgender children in front of a cheering crowd of blonde mothers and children. I mean, I remembered what my colleague, I mean, a fellow lawyer, Agnes Calamar, the Secretary General of Amnesty, had said last year, are we in 2024 or in 1924?

48:26So there is something extremely, extremely scary. But this mandate, and it didn't start with me, it goes back to John Dugard and Richard Fowler, Magdalene, has been sounding the alarm on the one hand saying I think Palestine is a powder keg. It's going to explode sooner or later. You cannot, the Palestinians cannot keep on being deprived of any single right that you can imagine. But also the system. I mean, Palestine is a revealer today of a crime scene where the fingerprints are not just of Israel, of the US and other countries. This is the thing. The impunity somewhere breeds impunity everywhere.

49:04You've got to go to another meeting. My final question, really, I guess, given all we've said, is whether you have any hope. We've all grown up in a generation that's talked about a two-state solution. It feels very, very distant right now. Impunity you've mentioned. We haven't really talked in detail about October the 7th, but that's changed so much. I'm sure it's changed your life as well. Where do you get hope from that keeps you getting out of bed and going again? Alisa, again, this is like the Overton window, is the framework of acceptable words and concepts. We decide to operate within, to analyse given subjects like Palestine.

49:46And yes, I take it that the two-state solution has been the framework to discuss Palestine in the past 30 years. But frankly, while we were discussing the possibility of a state, nothing has been done to make that state possible. And the United Kingdom is part and parcel of it, which is shocking. So not only the UK has been trading with Israel and transferring military aid, including at the time in the International Court of Justice had recognized the plausibility of acts of genocide being committed. When the International Court of Justice had reminded member states not to transfer directly or indirectly in total components, arms that could be used to commit crimes, not just the crime of genocide, but any violation of international humanitarian law.

50:31And you have leaders in this country who have not engaged with the legal qualifications of what was happening, in my view, in order not to take responsibility. Now, maybe things might change, but still, we didn't get there all of a sudden, overnight. The peace process and the two-state solution has been used as a kick in the can in the air, because why the United Kingdom has never recognized the state of Palestine, for God's sake? you see the incongruity and the incoherence how how does it make you feel are you British yeah how does it make you feel as a British citizen considering also the moral responsibility that the UK have vis-a-vis the question of Palestine because again as an Italian I tell you everything I do somewhat is determined by the fact that at a certain point Italians committed awful crimes in the name of an ideology that had turned into political doctrine Is it that different today?

51:28Maybe the groups, the targeted groups are different, but there is today the political environment stinks racism in a different way, more sophisticated way than the last century, but one century ago. But we are still there. We still are coping and adapting without dealing with the fact that as Western societies, we remain racist. And this is why we don't look at the Palestinians today empathetically. As we look at the Israelis, I have a lot of empathy for the Israelis. And this is why after October 7, because for you, this is where history begins. I assume since you asked me, you didn't ask me about the massacres that had happened in Gaza alone in 2008 or in 2009 or in 2012 or in 2014 or in 2018 or in 2021 or in 2022.

52:15Because these massacres, cumulatively, had killed over 5 ,000 people, including 1 ,200 children in the Gaza Strip alone, without even considering the forcibly displaced, the people made homeless, those who had been detained and tortured, including 700 children per year over a 20-year period. So, you know, the story you decide to tell people as a media expert and as a UN expert, I have a responsibility to bring the facts to the fore. But I wouldn't be truthful to my mandate if I forgot that there is a context out there. And maybe the silver lining. Let me close with this. Making mistakes is human, but in persisting, it's evil.

53:02We have the possibility to do things differently today. We can stop this, but we need to act according to the law and resolving the question of Israel-Palestine according to international law for the Palestinians and for the Israelis. It means ending the genocide today, ending the unlawful occupation by September 2025, because this is the deadline that ICJ plus General Assembly have given Israel. And then end apartheid, which exists. The International Court of Justice has recognized the racial segregation that is imposed by Israel to the Palestinians. And soon after October 7, I was completely shocked and sickened by what I saw, like you.

53:39And I said, this is the moment for the world to come close to the Israelis and the Palestinians as a people with wisdom and compassion. And I've not seen an inch of it, an inch of it from our part of the world, first and foremost. And we have let the Palestinians die and the Israelis continue to live every day as of October 7. Not from October 7, as every day as October 7. And do you think the Israelis who have lost their family members, who are still members of their families in Gaza, do you think that they are safe in this moment? Mentally, mentally, these are people who have been destroyed and devastated.

54:22And how Israel is going to cope with what an entire army has done over the past six months? Are we talking about the society rate among Israelis because of what's happening? No one is taking really a people-centered, a people-focused approach because ultimately policymakers do not care. But we are not policymakers. We are human beings and we need to step up and make sure that our leaders are held accountable for what's happening. well thank you thank you very much i know i know i always come as a cold shower well thank you i'd love to talk to you more invite me again yeah we'll do that we'll do that thank you francesca thank you thank you alistair it was really good ciao bye-bye so rory as she as she left the studio she said um you're in switzerland i'm in london she left the studio she said yeah i like giving people a cold shower and i mean she really really is passionate yeah it's also amazing i mean i was interested in what you thought about that she off camera is actually very lively quite informal quite cheeky laughed quite a lot teased you teased me made jokes about being a south italian made jokes about whether i was living in tax exile in switzerland which you're not which has made that clear thank you i'm sure you would And then on air, she was less, I think, comfortable being as relaxed and informal about her life.

55:55There's a slight sort of sense, which maybe one encounters with politicians, that one says, you know, tell me about your childhood. And she says, well, you know, international human rights law has been central to me since the age of three. What was your view just before we get onto the substance about the passion, the idealism, the communication style? I kept thinking, God, she's so passionate. She's so committed. She's so clear in the way that she expresses herself. And she moves through the gears. So by the end, it was like, you know, she really was. And I think what it was, you know, I think me saying, I know you've got to go somewhere, last question.

56:33And she thought, right, I am absolutely going to land what I feel and what I think about this. if you were listening to that i kept thinking okay that's why i was asking about being an ambassador to or for she's an ambassador to the occupied territories or for the occupied territories and you know clearly she is absolutely passionate about the issue she thinks this is a genocide she thinks the way that the palestinians are treated is off the scale horrific she blames israel she blames america she had quite a big dig at the uk towards the end part of me was thinking you know the Israelis who message us pretty much every week saying that you know we're not fair to Israel I was part of my head thinking god what are they going to say about this because of course if we'd have sought to push back on any of that so for example when she talked about you know when she was attacked for being anti-semitic in I think she's 2022 actually you go back I think the first time was 2014 but I didn't particularly want to get into an argument about that I didn't particularly want to go over what she said about macron on october the 7th and what i think she was right to do though because i did fall into that trap of saying october 7th changed everything and she was sort of saying well it was part of a very very long continuum that's been going for for some time so i suspect she will be quite a polarizing figure i'd be really interested to know what listeners think in terms of you know listeners who are essentially pro-israeli or essentially pro-palestinian let us know what they took out from that interview because i suspect it be different things yeah i asked her to said before you know you talk about your empathy with palestinians talk about your empathy with israelis and israeli friends and how they view the world and of course what i was expecting her to say was of course israel has a legitimate right to defend itself israel went through this horrifying experience on october the 7th Israel has very very strong deep memories of the holocaust is feels an existential threat to the state of Israel Hamas is a horrendous organization and then go on to say but Israel is violating international law Israel is defying the courts Israel is killing willing children And it was interesting that she didn't want to do that.

58:54And I can only conclude it's because she doesn't think it's appropriate to keep making those points, because I think she may feel that it's a distraction, that her job is to make a very, very clear, strong legal argument on the basis of the crimes that have been committed, not to provide a full psychological backstance. ground for why they're happening. I think that's right. And also, I mean, in the research we saw, one of the points made was that she sees her challenge as changing the dominant narrative. And the dominant narrative, I guess, is, she would argue, coming from a fairly pro-Israel stance, but also there is a bit of an en même temps approach to the way that a lot of the media cover this so she's basically saying no it's not that i'm taking sides i'm saying that the those of you who try to put the two sides of the story in so doing you distort the actual truth i think that's what she's saying and the question about whether she you know i mean also she's doing it for nothing i was very impressed by that you know slipping around the world being insulted everywhere you go and she looks she's got a busy schedule and i was i think that's you know fair play for that one it's also really interesting just at my last point what it implies about the un that they appointed her i mean she clearly was always from the moment she was appointed going to be an unbelievably polarizing figure this is somebody who was prepared to say quite openly i had very few israeli friends when she could have talked about who her israeli friends were this is somebody who worked for unra who was profoundly committed to the palestinian cause written a lot about it.

1:00:42Jacuzzi was one of her publications? Yeah, the Secretary General decided to make her the special rapporteur rather than a more conciliatory figure. I mean, this is very, very different from bringing in Tony Blair or Jim Wolfenson as a sort of peace mediator. And I guess that reflects presumably very strong feelings amongst the General Assembly as opposed to Security Council. It suggests something about Secretary General himself. I mean, he, of course, has now been declared persona non grata by Israel on the relationship between the UN and Israel. But anyway, thank you for that. I mean, I think it's really, really worth listening to and look forward to listeners' responses.

1:01:21Yeah. Okay, Roy, I'd love to talk to you. Bye-bye.