137. Jacinda Ardern: Why I Stepped Down as Prime Minister of New Zealand

27:47And there are civil servants sitting around the table who are carefully trying to renegotiate that vision for the things that they're concerned about that day, which will be, can we keep this staff in this field office or not? Can we re-describe them in terms of that? Can we get this bit of the budget through? And she can't see any of that, doesn't know any of that. Well, never. I never could work out even in 10 years really what this relationship was supposed to be, because it's completely unlike the relationship that you would have running a company or a charity. You can't tell people what to do in a straightforward way and expect it to happen.

28:22It's a very odd dance. Did you ever get your head around what this thing is, how it works well, how it doesn't work, what the problems are with this whole minister civil servant thing. This is where I felt really lucky. So I had a brief insight into the different elements and parts that once you're a minister or a prime minister, you're then sitting over the top of. So on the one hand, I had been a political staffer within an office and so understood the interface between an office very directly with a department. I had also been on a contract that meant that I was part civil servant. I was a private secretary for energy for a time.

29:07And so got even closer to understanding the dynamics of a department in that relationship. And then, of course, was very lucky to have that short stint in the UK in the cabinet office. Which was really boring, right? Do you know what I discovered about myself? And this is actually a really helpful thing when you're a politician. I can find almost anything interesting if I get into it with enough detail. So I was in the better regulation executive. Yeah. Well, we need better regulation. Of course. But not many people want to commit their lives to it, Alistair. Jacinda, I blame you. You come and work at the cabinet office.

29:44And before you know it, Tony Blair's out of office. I'm absolutely blaming you for the whole thing. Had nothing to do with me, I can assure you. That actually points to another issue when you're a minister or a prime minister, is that you have to be a really good generalist. You have to learn to ask the right questions. But you also have to foster an environment where those public servants who are sitting in front of you and are there to serve on behalf of New Zealand feel like they can tell you exactly what's happening. Now that's something really interesting when you hold. whether or not you're aware of it or not.

30:19You hold power and influence and that without you even, before you even start, will create an environment that people are operating in that you have to be aware of. So how do you create that space where you are going to get that honest reflection and advice because that's so important? Now I think New Zealand has done a really good job of trying to protect the sanctity of free and frank advice and to encourage it in our public service. But I tried to be really good at picking up when I wasn't getting it. I remember during COVID, having a briefing call one day and just thinking, I just don't know if because of the dynamic on this call on this side, whether I'm getting everything.

30:59So after the meeting, I called one of the frontline public servants and said, just tell me what you think. And so perhaps being the leader of a smaller country enables that, but that environment is so important. Because I think that's another really interesting question, which is this question of why civil servants don't always feel comfortable presenting the truth. Again, I saw another friend of mine who's a minister on Tuesday. Are you defecting to the Labour government, Rory? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I'm defecting to Labour. We had Gordon Brown last week. We've got two ministers and we saw Ed Miliband yesterday.

31:30Exactly. I'm defecting. So he was saying that one of the weird things, and I recognised this when I was in departments, is that you would spot a problem and you would tell the department that you wanted to, I don't know, shut down a particular part of the department or get rid of a particular program. And the arguments that would be made back to you for keeping it open would seem absurd. I mean, sort of comical. And you'd be able to pick them all to pieces. So you'd think I'm living in a crazy house, you know, how can they defend those? But what's really going on is they're not actually telling you for whatever reason, the real reason that they want to keep this thing going or keep this program running.

32:11And so they're in this very uncomfortable position of sort of acting like lawyers defending something in a way that seems to the minister mad when it's not actually mad at all. But do you recognize that? And can you explain how this happens and why this happens? Here's probably where this may face as a difference between me actually being in what is relatively unusual, the position of having been a prime minister without ever having been a minister. And so I sat a bit, you know, I sat slightly above that in so much as I would have perhaps a bit more of that experience where it related to the cabinet office and where I was directly, you know, had that responsibility for staffing and for funding as it related to my department.

32:53But by and large, you don't have quite as much of that side of the interactions that you're describing, which would sit much more at a ministerial level. One thing I did notice, You do perhaps not quite the example that you gave, but it's often hard to keep in mind the level of staffing required simply to ensure that you are receiving the very best advice and not just delivery. So you see on a page this number of policy leads or this number of policy offices, and it's very easy to very crudely declare that that seems far more than is required. Without getting into whether or not that's a fair assumption, what I have noticed is a pattern where progressive governments come in and they support a civil service to rebuild to the needs that are required to service a government and to deliver a program.

33:50you then often flip to a conservative government and the first thing they'll do is start stripping away the public service. My observation is that our struggle, now Ezra Klein calls it this theory of abundance, I would just call it this issue of delivery. Our struggle to deliver on the needs of our constituents actually depends on having more stability in an apolitical public service. and this yo-yoing effect that we're seeing, which is often unfortunately comes about from having this crude look at a grid on a page as to whether or not you've got too many people in a department, is serving us poorly.

34:27And what we should fundamentally agree on is the need for a good, solid core public service because it's in all of our interests. In a way, we keep coming back to the theme of empathy and connection and so forth. I remember during COVID, I wrote a piece for the New European in analysing all the different world leaders' communications and media strategies through COVID. Oh, I think I remember that. Well, you came top. That's probably why you remembered it. I thought your communication… Someone probably showed it to me to make me feel better. I thought your communications was really outstanding.

35:01But you got a lot of grief because of some of the policy decisions. But this point about empathy is so important. And one of the really striking bits in the book I found was when you were dealing with the Christchurch massacre, which must have been just, you know, and you tell that story very well. You get a call from my friend and namesake, Andrew Campbell, who is your press guy, tells you what happened and you're suddenly having to deal with this. And then you were getting all these messages of support from world leaders and you had this wonderful conversation with Donald Trump in his first term.

35:32And Trump asked you if he could do anything to help. And you said, show sympathy and love for all Muslim communities. And, you know, I read that, if you like, in the context of what's happening in the United States today. And I just wonder whether you feel that Trump, having been in power, then out of power, now back in and showing the sort of politics that he is, do you feel that the kind of your attempt to get more empathetic leadership is taking a bit of a knock right now? No, no. I think actually it's important now more than ever. And I'm not an isolated voice. I know you would have watched as closely as I did the election outcome in Canada with Mark Carney and in Australia with Anthony Albanese.

36:25And what I heard in two victory speeches on other sides of the world were both of these victorious candidates in their victory speeches on election night talked about the value of kindness. and not just because it was a value that obviously was important to them, but because they were reflecting values that they believed were important to, in Albo's case, Australia and Canada. And so I think what we're seeing at the moment is in some corners a disconnect from values that actually by and large still exist with voters. But some politicians have decided that there are obviously very real issues that voters are grappling with.

37:09You know, in Europe, in the United States, and actually most post-COVID economies, I would distill it down to this idea of significant financial insecurity. That old perception that every, or belief, that every generation should be better off than the one before. And that has taken a backslide. We don't have that sense of certainty in this current era. and some politicians and leaders have decided that in response to that they'll co-opt as you'll know the easiest comms trick in the book fear and blame because the moment that you you you weaponize fear and blame in a political context it's the moment that you actually apportion the problem to someone else and it's not for you to fix anymore you know for you to fix it you just need to to marginalize that other person who's responsible whether or not that's a migrant or a country who might be manufacturing some of the industries that you may have previously been a manufacturer.

38:08Either or, it's no longer your problem versus actually tackling at its core what we're facing, which is this deep period of uncertainty. So I think the challenge for progressive parties is to not misalign the idea that voters are seeking combative politics and conflict-driven politics and the politics of fear, but rather what's sitting underneath it. That's the challenge. Just the thing that strikes me with Anthony Albanese and Mark Carney, both of whom we've interviewed, and maybe to some extent with Keir Stummer as well, is that you have an increasingly fluent analysis of what's wrong from the progressive left.

38:49But it seems to me that the solutions, the policies fall so far short. Because these issues you're talking about, insecurity, are deeply rooted in our capitalist economies. I mean, this is part of the entire structure of our markets. And I didn't see anybody addressing these things. I mean, what are they doing? They're slightly changing taxation rates by one or two percent. There's a little bit more redistribution, a little bit more money in child poverty. But really dealing with a big issue, which is how have we gone from a world where somebody had a job for 30, 40 years to the kind of world we're in now?

39:24I don't think anybody's doing it. I think what we've got is a progressive left that is failing to be radical. Well, I think we should also be clear. As you describe, it's no longer the environment where someone has the same career for 30 or 40 years. So I think having a bit of grace for us to acknowledge, it is a very complicated landscape. But within that, and I won't give a policy prescription for any particular country here because there's nuance, obviously, in every jurisdiction. But I would say this, you know, Norman Kirk was this politician that existed in the 70s, you know, really well respected in the labor movement for so many reasons.

40:04And I always had the sense that he was important because he passed while he was in office, you know, long before I was born. I had a sense that it was important because our cat, when I was growing up, was named Norm, after Norman Kirk. He had this saying that all that anyone ever really needs is somewhere to live, something to do, someone to love, and something to hope for. Now, there's a lot in that that still remains to be true. In this environment where we have, whether or not it's rapid technological development that might potentially make a whole range of industries redundant or change them significantly, in an environment where trade and globalization has seen large cities and communities rocked by significant change, what are the fundamentals that we need to keep providing as progressives?

40:54We need a strong safety net that should anyone fall in those harm times, they consider that to be not just a place where you survive, but you're able to retool and move into new industry. You need an education system that allows lifelong learning and you need an accessible healthcare system. and of course then you can look around the edges on those other really important fundamentals like housing and so on but I see at their core those as being fundamentals for a highly unpredictable environment to give people that sense of security and to varying degrees we see a focus on that as progressives but certainly while we were in office and we weren't perfect by no means but certainly when we're in office and we set up under the leadership of Grant Robertson, the future of work.

41:44That was what we had our minds on. We can't predict the future, but we can better prepare for it. Jacinda, why did you give up in the end? Give up? Give up? Well, why did you step down? You're not giving up. You're doing lots of different things now. But it was around the same time Nicola Sturgeon was stepping down, Angela Merkel was stepping down. And there was this sort of sense of very, very strong women leaders stepping down. And was it in the end? I mean, I read tons of stuff about the death threats you were getting and all that. But in the end, what went through your mind to say, do you know what?

42:19I've had enough. I'm moving on. Yeah. On the personal thing, that wasn't my day-to-day experience. And I think maybe it helps to just share that whenever I, if there was a story about something like that, actually, often the first time I would hear of it would be because a journalist to ask me a question. It wasn't something that filled my time, my space, my thinking, my mindset. So it wasn't a driving force for my decision in any way. Did the social media stuff get you? I'm not going to trivialize it because I don't think we should brush over its existence or its impact. And the Global Institute for Women in Leadership and Julia Gillard, the unit out of Australia, has been doing a lot of work in this space and they are finding that it's a barrier to women's entry into public life.

43:00So we should care about it and we should do something about it. But again, it wasn't a driving influencer in my final decision. One thing that strikes me is that the political environment, it is changing. And I asked Angela Merkel when she left, how did you do 16 years? It's phenomenal. How did you do that? And she did say it's different now. And it is different now. Not just the intensity of the crisis, because I guess in our five years we had March 15, a volcanic eruption, COVID. It is generally a fairly relentless environment. The one thing I've always really wanted to make clear, I was not burnt out.

43:40I could have kept going, but I did not believe I could keep going to the standard that I'd set myself. The traits that I valued, curiosity, not being defensive, which I think is very easy to become defensive. not being defensive, having enough in reserve should another crisis arrive, those had eroded. They were eroding. I could feel it. And so that was a major driver for me. And Jacinta, why did those things erode? Because I think this is not unique to you. I mean, it's something I'm very struck by. I mean, my friend William Hakes decided to step down as Foreign Secretary a year before he needed to.

44:19And a lot of people thought, you're mad. You're the British Foreign Secretary. Why would you not want to keep doing that? And I remember Cameron's chief of staff and had a strategy leaving and everyone thought, well, how could you do this? You're in the most exciting, important job in the world. What is it about these jobs that drains curiosity, that the spare fuel in the tank produces defensiveness? I think for the first year, though, I think it's really interesting to reflect on people's perception when you choose to walk away from those. And I think that in itself points to a disconnect, that we have a perception that people are often in these roles are there because or are sustained in those roles or choose to remain because of the personal gratification and the power.

45:04when actually so many people are there because they have a sense of civic responsibility. They see themselves as a public servant and they feel a deep responsibility. And if you feel that, then that actually will be the thing that causes you to constantly assess whether you're still the right person for the job, that sense of responsibility. And so what eroded some of those traits that I thought were important? Time and crisis. But also by then, I mean, the book starts with you, you know, at the height of the election, discovering that you're pregnant. Yes. Even worse than that, we're in the middle of coalition negotiations.

45:48Exactly. You're about to sort of put it through, yeah. So you're waiting to hear whether you're going to be prime minister and you discover you're pregnant and you have a daughter, Niamh. I do want to talk about that a little bit. But first of all, I told you I don't do God. I also don't do the honor system. I was a bit hurt that you took a damehood. But anyway, we'll put that to one side. This is the second time you've expressed this disappointment in me, Alistair. I feel it deeply. I've found a line in the book, however, where I think you could be stripped of your damehood because you directly quote advice from Her Majesty the Queen.

46:25I don't know about New Zealand Prime Ministers, but British Prime Ministers must not quote directly. No, no, no. May I just here explain that at the time that Her Majesty passed and a number of questions were then asked of me about my reflection on Her Majesty, the advice I received from the Cabinet Office, and it was verbal, I will acknowledge it wasn't written, was that, you know, within certain parameters on her passing, it would be okay to share the insights. Be appropriate. Okay. Well, right. Well, the advice, just for our listeners, spoiler alert. There is no constitutional crisis. Just for our listeners, the advice that the Queen gave is when you were about to have a baby and you asked the Queen how she coped with being in public life but raising children, and she said, you just get on with it.

47:17very queedly it was very british tell us about me because there is some really interesting so on the one hand and i think rory and i both identify with this with you know doing high profile high pressure jobs and having young children and you know i think about this a lot and you you have a conversation with me when you're in the job where she's basically saying why do you have to work so hard and you try to explain to her and then when you leave the job and you say that this is great because you'll be able to spend more time together and so forth but then she says to you but you always taught me not to run away from things yeah her words were but mommy we should never give up never give up yeah but the thing that was so such a gift from that conversation with my wonderful insightful at that time not quite I think she was just yeah she was five.

48:13But the gift of that conversation was for all the worry that I had carried, that I wasn't present enough, that obviously my job had to be a priority, had to be, that she might perceive that as feeling secondary, therefore. And yet by asking this simple statement, but mommy, we should never give up, told me that wasn't how she saw my job at all. You know, it wasn't that she saw I wasn't focused on her. She understood somehow the importance of it and just reframed entirely for me. And it made me realize how much as parents we assume the perspective of our kids. We assume that, of course, the disappointment of our absence.

49:04And that's not to say that they won't find it hard, but they're, I think, complex beings and there'll be a lot often going on when they perceive our roles in the world. In fact, I wrote a children's book based on some of the insights she used to share because they were just, you know, some of the things that she would say before she realized really what my job was because we never sat it down and explained it to her. Some of those insights were such gems for me that I wrote a book. They're essentially based on her observations. Yeah, it's just schoolgirl error there, Jacinda. Don't promote a previous book when you're on the trail promoting the program.

49:43No, this one hasn't come out. It comes out the 30th of September. Thank you for the opportunity to plug it, though. Well done. So you've got two books coming out at a matter of – that's an error as well. You've got to have the hardback than the paperback. Well, no, there's three months between them. Oh, okay. Yeah, I can't say. I have no expert in the publishing world. I cannot tell you if this is a good thing. Do you see yourself now as being based in the United States? No. New Zealand's still your home? Absolutely. We're on a temporary adventure. Right. New Zealand will always be home. What is it like being in America at the moment?

50:22Because I'm sort of toying with the idea of not going there for four years. One thing I will say, when it's your own politics, it's deeply personal. So there is a difference to being an observer. That doesn't mean that I don't feel things deeply, you know, as a progressive in the world. Of course you do. But I do feel that I am an observer here. And for me, all of those observations I've reflected in this call, just the importance now of talking about the alternatives in leadership and in politics. And even, you know, one thing I often draw on this, this data point that post-European elections data praxis did some research that looked at the shift towards populist parties and found that less than a quarter of voters who switched their votes to populist parties primarily did so because of policy.

51:11And so, again, I'm loathe to just see everything that we're seeing currently in the political realm as being as simplistic as simply a narrative about ideologically where every voter is. I think it's much more complicated than that. And certainly in the US, you get that insight of there's so many things going on here. One thing that struck me about the book is that you are wonderfully frank and open about yourself and your family, but you're surprisingly coy about describing other leaders. Yeah. So on the tone of the whole thing, I was expecting to suddenly see you being… I got pressed on that.

51:51Yeah, I did get pressed on that. You know, editors wanted more on that as well. So that's a fair observation. Let me give you a chance. say, who really impressed you or depressed you? And what did you pick up looking at other people about what you felt made for a good political leader? You know, there are, you know, Alice is referred to kind of the practice and what you convey and don't convey around interactions with the royal family. And there's those same protocols exist with your engagement with other leaders. Very few of them obey them when they write their memoirs. No, that's right. But, you know, I have such respect for the office that you hold when you're prime minister.

52:30It's a gift. There are certain rules that apply. And I didn't want to just leave and abandon kind of my sense of integrity around the role. And so that was it for me. But just to underline Rory's point there, for example, what you just told us about that conversation with Angela Merkel, that would have fitted perfectly in the bit where you write about Angela Merkel. Right, Theresa May, I think she's mentioned once, and I think basically you mentioned that you had a phone call. So tell us what you think about Theresa May. I talk about Theresa in the context of trade, but on Merkel I do give reflections on Merkel.

53:06A little bit. Yeah, but I mean, you know, I guess certain, you know, There's certain audiences for lots of different things, and the political audience will be probably really interested in that, and others will be interested in other things. So you're trying to serve a bunch of different readers. Maybe you should call it a different kind of memoir. I knew that I was doing that. Do you know, in part, because when I was first asked whether I would write a book, my answer was no. And that's because in my mind, a political memoir was so often, whether you intend for them to be or not, they are reframed as being defensive and you writing your account of history.

53:44And again, whether you intend to do that or not, that's often how they're perceived. I didn't want to do that. I felt like my record was there and it would be for others to determine where they land on that. But then someone raised with me this question. What if you wrote the book about your journey there and what it feels like to lead, particularly from the perspective of someone who did not believe they should be there? So that's a very different memoir. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And maybe it means you get a little bit less of what you were looking for. And it gives you the chance to write another one in a few years' time.

54:17Well done. Good thinking. Feels like I went down the wrong path trying to get you to tell us what you thought about Theresa May or Angela Merkel or Donald Trump. Distracted. That's what makes you such a wonderful politician. With such charm and while you managed to sort of avoid the question entirely. So I'll take it as read. You're not going to tell us. So let me finish with my final question. listen one of the most dramatic things about you Jacinda is that you were for a moment the pin-up of the world I mean you were the great hope I'd be interested how it felt I mean for very young listeners whom we have some I was talking to a 14 year old today may not remember but there was a moment where every time I gave a speech anywhere in the world people would say oh it all seems really rubbish there's no good leaders out there who is that and I would say Jacinda Ardern and everyone would clap, right?

55:07I feel like I've somehow ruined something for you. I don't know if that's your intention, but I feel like that's where this is going to finish. No, it's not where it's going. It's not where it's going. It is ghost's question of imposter syndrome. And how does it feel to be put that much on a pedestal? What does it actually feel like as an individual for people all the way around the world who don't know very much about you to see you as the salvation of humanity? I remember at a very personal level, being in the debating chamber one day, I can't actually remember whether I was deputy leader or even whether I'd become leader, but there'd been a poll out that'd shown that my personal ratings had risen.

55:49And a member of the opposition, quite a senior member of the opposing party came over to me and he said, congratulations on the poll. And he said, but always remember, what goes up must come down and you know his implication being of course that there's an inevitability in politics and I had been around politics long enough to know you know for all the coming back to that idea of the mania that actually behind all of that behind the headlines it was just the reality of the job that I had to do and that within that I might retain popularity or I might not. Ultimately, the value that that served was it put me in the position to do something useful.

56:28And sometimes I would spend it on things that would erode my popularity, but it was always about doing something useful. So in large part, you would have to block out that expectation. I would not receive weekly polls. I had a policy of telling my chief of staff, do not tell me the polling numbers. Tell me what the focus groups are saying. Tell me what's happening in people's lives. Tell me about whether or not they heard a particular message on a policy, whether we're doing that job well. But do not tell me the polls because I didn't want to govern that way. And so in the same way, I really blocked out some of the, as you would describe, the people pinning hope to you.

57:08Yeah. Jacinda, my last question, I normally ask a sort of, you know, really trivial and comical question to end, but I'm going to ask a real difficult and serious question. I don't want any political bullshit. I want this straight answer. Not that I do that anyway. I know you don't. I know you don't. And it's similar to a question that we asked Anthony Albanese. So New Zealand today put in order of ranking which of these relationships matters most, USA, China, UK, European Union. It's a terrible question. It's a great question. And the reason is because you don't want to answer it. No, it's because the problem with this world is the binary thinking that you have just put to me.

57:53And the idea that in foreign policy, it's a with us against us. It is fundamentally the problem with foreign policy currently in this world. That's another brilliant deflection. It's not a deflection. It's the truth. If I may, a small hobby horse of mine, you know, particularly as a member of the Five Eyes, You know, we would often just call for sometimes the nuance that's required in all of these relationships. But the moment that you might try and add that, it was seen as either that was a pro-China stance or too much of an anti-US stance. And that binary thinking in foreign policy is a disservice and hugely problematic.

58:33It's not binary. I'm giving you four. But China's more important than it used to be. And New Zealand's probably the most pro-China of the five eyes, isn't it? I think it has a bit more nuance to it, a pragmatism. Okay. But not without values. And so, if I may, New Zealand's, I would say, most important relationship is Australia. Ultimately, they are a most important relationship, fundamentally. If you look at economic ties, China then, obviously, on paper, China, economically, hugely important. Right. But the idea that just because we have a hugely important economic relationship does not mean that we will not call out human rights issues, that we will not call out aggression in, say, the South China Sea, that we will not call on them to call out Russia's behavior and the threat to territorial sovereignty.

59:25It is not the case that simply because you have a strong economic relationship does not mean that you will not act based on your values. And nor does it mean that you can't have a close relationship with the United States or the UK. So that's my problem with that question. Binary thinking. That was a brilliant answer. It was a brilliant answer, wasn't it, Rory? That's the truth. It was amazing. It was amazing. She's incredible. Absolutely incredible. Jacinda, that's why I was right to say that you were the one. That's your way of saying that you think I'm in absolute pain. The one hope of the world.

59:52Which do you prefer, Scotland or England? Well, I'm Scottish. Yeah, I know. But just say Scotland there. You don't have to qualify. Why didn't I just say that? I'm Scottish. You said, well, I'm Scottish. That was a stupid question as well. I've run out of stupid questions Jacinta, last one for me real last one, what do you in these interviews and when you're interacting with people what do you get frustrated that people don't ask you, what do you wish you could communicate, what do you find irritating about these formats and what do you wish you could get across I get asked almost everything and I'm okay with that I think that ultimately you can't build a conversation or at least you can't build trust and confidence in a conversation unless we're a bit more open and we should have a bit more faith in voters.

1:00:34We expose a few more tragic flaws with politicians. They already know they're there. Why don't we talk about them a bit more often? I think the thing that I struggle with is often not what I don't get asked but what I sometimes struggle to articulate and that is that in everything I maintain the sense of optimism and that's sometimes unfortunately perceived as naivety. I don't think you can run a country and be naive to the realities of everything. the economic struggles, the national security challenges, the foreign policy challenges. So what I hope I can convey is that coming from the point of being a realist, I've been in the position where I've had to be, I'm still an optimist because optimism is also about expectation.

1:01:19And I always expect better of our leaders and of what we're capable of. So my frustration is that if I ever can't, if I leave without leaving that sense that we should be we should maintain a sense of optimism that's what I hope for well just saying it's been lovely to talk to you as ever you know and thank you for promoting New Zealand so wonderfully I can't let you go though without saying that my main experience of New Zealand was the 2005 British and Irish Lions tour and I'm sorry it was a spear tackle on Brian O'Driscoll you should have had two players sent off and I'm not quite over it yet okay but you also had a great time i came to watch you on conversation and it was great i still remember it it was absolutely great so i know you i know you love new zealand but it was a spear tackle it was a spear tackle see you later thank you so much i appreciate you thank you so much sorry in case our listeners didn't know i love jacinda clearly and just could tell us a little bit about the rap when you first met her and how well do you know her and what's what's the deal here well i've forgotten that i did meet her in 2005 when she came to this i was doing when i was on the british and irish lions tour and one of the more curious uh past elements of my life and clive woodward the coach asked me to do the comms and so while i was there i did some political events and q and she came to one of them because she'd she'd just yeah i think she just left the the job in the cabin office so she came to one so that was probably the first time i met her And back then, I don't think the reason why I was talking about this reluctant politician, she's obviously incredibly political and got real sort of, you know, as she said, political drive.

1:03:04But I don't think I thought she was sort of set on this amazing political career that she subsequently had. and I think a lot you know I mentioned her dad and other members of her family and and friends and colleagues who sometimes just thought you know she didn't have the sharp elbows didn't have the kind of you know the toughness that we think you need for for politics but actually she's got these other qualities she is actually quite tough I think but but she's got these other qualities that I think she brought to bear I think it is a tragedy that she went when she did. And I think she's only 44.

1:03:39Yeah. It was very interesting the way that she described it. So she said, it's not that I think that I had a breakdown, but that I was beginning to lose my, well, the spare petrol in the tank, I'm losing the ability to listen, losing a sense of curiosity. I mean, it does sound as though that's one way of saying she was coming under more and more nervous strain that she felt less and less able to well i think that's what she said didn't she that she somebody who believes profoundly in public service and felt that she just wasn't going to be able to serve in the way that she wanted yeah but also this point she made about the defensiveness i think was coming from uh the relentlessness of the attack i mean the darren who now runs the electoral reform society here um who's very very close friend of of jacinda's and who I know quite well.

1:04:30And I remember the time he was saying to me, and I think I told you, do you remember when I told you that she was getting the second most organized online disinformation stuff from Russia? Macron was number one and she was number two, because as you say, she was this kind of progressive political pinup. Now, I'm not saying that's why she went, but I think that that sense of it is what was making her more defensive than she clearly wanted to be. And you can see in the way that she communicates now that she's just got this amazing sort of optimism and sort of vibrancy and freshness. And so, yeah, I think she's great.

1:05:08I think she's a huge loss. But, you know, she's doing lots of different things now. We've done a number of interviews with people who I think are skirting around this issue of just how painful it can be. I mean, Theresa May, I think, frankly, it must have been an absolutely brutal two and a half years. Angela Merkel, I think, is different, isn't she? I mean, it's not just it was a different time, she's a different type of person. And there was an added thing I would have said, which is, she was saying when I was talking about people saying, why don't you stay, that people imagine they're just in it for the power.

1:05:43Unfortunately, it's even worse than that. It's because people pin so much hope on them and see it so much in terms of public service not power that they're so they put them so under so much pressure to stay and are so distraught when they leave and it's funny when i don't think i think it was when we were off air when she said that when she wrote the book she said to darren i don't think alice is going to like this book because it's more about the emotions and less qualities but actually i did that's what i did enjoy about the book is actually it is about a kind of emotional family journey and i think the book will do well i really do final thing for me i thought incredibly powerful that idea that what people want is a house oh yeah a job someone to love and something to hope for and yeah there's some there's a real wisdom there yeah it was beautiful brilliant really beautiful and of course that's why housing and the failure on housing in all our countries has been so central to a lot of our problems anyway much love see you take care bye

1:06:49Thank you.