141. The President of Cyprus: Iran, Israel, and the Cyprus Issue (Nikos Christodoulides)

28:53I visited all villages, all towns in the free areas of the Republic. I discussed with the people. They felt that, and that was very rightly, I felt that I was one of them. I prepared my program, talking with the people, and I was elected. You know British politics very well. Where would you be on our political spectrum, left to right let's say we've got jeremy corbyn over here no no i don't have i mean i know i know jeremy we've got jeremy corbyn over here and we've got i don't know liberal democrats today or you yes liberal democrat or yeah no i'm coming from the liberal party but i'm not a neoliberalist i'm a social liberalist i'm more than the third way of tony blair you invest this new wave.

29:46I mean, free economy, free economy. I'm against taxes, taxes are killing business people, but at the same time, the state has certain responsibilities on health, on education to provide to its people the same. So you wouldn't define yourself in our terms as a conservative? Today conservative? No. Sorry. You've managed to offend both of us. That's absolutely amazing. No, he hasn't offended me. He's a Blairite. He's fine. It's fine. Mr. Reza, tell us a little bit about these British bases. So last time I was in Cyprus, I came with the House of Commons Defence Select Committee and we went and saw the bases and we met with the government.

30:25Many people in Britain don't know about the bases, don't understand about them, and maybe some people in Cyprus are not comfortable with them. Can you explain what these bases are, why they're there? Are they doing anything useful for Cyprus or Britain? The bases are the result of the colonisation of Cyprus by the UK. There is a disagreement between Cyprus and the UK on the issue of sovereign bases or not. They consider, you consider, the UK government considers the bases as sovereign. We don't consider the bases as sovereign British area. We have this disagreement. Another one, another intractable problem.

31:07Look, we have a love and hate relationship with the UK. But I have to admit that I'm very happy with the way the new prime minister is handling the situation. You know that the new UK prime minister was the first one to visit Cyprus after 53 years in a bilateral visit. After 53 years and he arrived Cyprus through the Larnaca air. Not the bases. Exactly. This is very important. He's in power for how long? We met three times, two in London and one in Cyprus. And we're working very closely together, very closely together. And putting now my heart as a leader of an EU member state, we're very glad that we see a new page in the EU-UK relationship.

32:01Would you be happier if the British bases weren't here? Of course, I would be much more happy. Are you happy to live with it? It is an issue of disagreement. We don't agree. In a number of cases that we're discussing the Cyprus problem, I mean, let's go back in 2004. It was the first time that we have a plan that was put for the people in a referendum to vote for the solution of the Cyprus problem. The British bases, we are part of the deal. Do you say to Keir Starmer, you know, you gave away the British bases in Diego Garcia very happily. Why don't you give away the bases in Cyprus? Some things cannot be said publicly, so...

32:35We are starting from the issues that we agree in order to reach the issues that we disagree. Can I ask you about the issue of corruption and crime? Because I think you'd accept that Cyprus has a real problem in terms of its global image because of the whole golden... We used to have a serious problem. Okay, but these things endure. These things endure. I wonder, for example, how you feel about the influence of Russian money in Cyprus and actually whether that relates in any way to... let me put it another way did you feel under pressure to come out with a pretty strong line on russia ukraine does the presence of russia and russian money here inhibit you in any way no our position on the russian ukraine it was uh it was very easy one because we were facing the similar situation like ukraine but on the issue of corruption i will be fully honest with you we did serious mistake as a country we left our past behind you know when i became president in In 2023, I had a case with an international media that was saying about Cyprus corruption and etc.

33:43So I called the Americans and I told them I need a team from FBI that they don't have any link in Cyprus to send it in Cyprus to support me to clean with all those cases in Cyprus. And I was grateful that the United States replied immediately. They sent me a team in Cyprus. We cleaned all cases. And now we're reintroducing our country to the international arena. Recently, I was in a road show in New York, Texas, and Silicon Valley to bring investment, U.S. investment in Cyprus. Back in 2013, the major shareholders of our banks, they were Russians. Today, the major shareholders of our banks are Americans.

34:33I will ask you to check the last report from Manibal, what they are saying about Cyprus and all the measures that we did. So I'm proud for the fact that we face this huge challenge of corruption in my country and we are following a new path. Can I ask you about the church, the role of the church, and whether it's still a very powerful force in Cyprus, and also about your own faith, whether you're a man of faith? I am a man of faith, but this is a purely personal issue. You don't talk about it? No, no, I talk, but I don't use it in international politics. No, but the faith is real as opposed to you feel you have to have faith because of the power of the church.

35:19It's not because of the power of the church. I believe in faith, I believe in church because of my personal experience. For example, I lost my brother at the age of 50. My religion was very important for me to pass through this very difficult moment. The role of church in Cyprus is not the same that it used to be before 10 years, before 20 years, before 30 years. And the church in Cyprus used to have a powerful role because the church let the undeliberation struggle against the UK, against the British. and that is why our first president was the Archbishop of Cyprus for 17 years. But the role of church is getting less and less important.

36:09Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing? It is a good thing. As a president, I don't get involved in the, not the politics, the business of the church. They should not get involved in politics. The Archbishop is talking publicly a number of times, positioning the church on issues that I disagree with him. And when I meet him, I say, you know, I disagree with this issue at the end of the day. I need to decide. Tell me a little bit about what you have learned about the correct strategic policy for a smaller country. So I guess you're a country, you're bigger than Malta, you're slightly bigger than Estonia, you may be bigger than Montenegro, smaller than Kosovo.

36:54I mean, help us understand, is there a particular way of thinking? Do you ever get together with people who have countries, maybe between half a million and two million people? How do you think about those issues? In Cyprus, we used to have the impression that we are the center of the world. We used to think that every morning they wake up in London, Washington, Moscow, and they think, what I'm going to do today with Cyprus and the Cyprus problem. That was our impression for a number of years. Being a diplomat, being in a number of discussions with foreign leaders, either ministers of foreign affairs or presidents, and then becoming a politician.

37:35I fully understand that for a small country, first of all, you need to be relevant in the international system. The United States or the UK will not help us to solve the Cyprus problem if this is not the benefit of the United States or the UK. So in order to understand the British and the Americans that they have an interest to solve the Cyprus problem, They need first to see that they have an interest from a functional, reliable, predictable government and country in this very important region. So we fully change our foreign policy. You know, when I'm going to Brussels, I need to intervene in all issues and not only when I hear the word Turkey.

38:20Otherwise, nobody will think seriously of my country and, of course, myself. So the answer to Rory's question is you feel that the small countries have to think and operate like bigger countries. They shouldn't see themselves as small countries. And you know, following the terrorist attack of Hamas in Israel, October 2023, we developed in Cyprus this idea of the humanitarian corridor to send humanitarian assistance from Cyprus to Gaza. Gaza was under Israeli blockade for 17 years. and I remember I went to Paris. President Macron organized a Gaza Forum, Peace Forum, and I went there with my Minister of Foreign Affairs.

39:06It was end of October, beginning of November. And I presented this idea of the humanitarian corridor. Nobody was interested. Nobody. And we started working with the Emiratis and the Americans. And the Brits. And the Brits. Actually, the Brits, they were the first. Thank you for the correction. they were the first one to send a ship from cyprus to israel but we did it it was the first time that cyprus became internationally known for positive news just on that i was going to ask you about the maritime scheme where's that gone is because and no we're still working on this and of course recently i went to israel and palestine i visited prime minister netanyahu i visited President Abbas, and we're working with the Emiratis, especially with the Emiratis, to send humanitarian assistance, not directly to Gaza, but to Ashtov, the port there, in order to be sent in Gaza.

40:04How do you feel about Gaza right now, at the emotional level? Very, very disappointed, and the worst development is that nobody's discussing Gaza today. Everybody's discussing Iran and Israel and have kids dying every day in Gaza. Don't you think that part of Netanyahu's thinking and pivoting to Iran may actually be to stop the world talking about Gaza? Or am I being too cynical about being Netanyahu? I don't think so that it was part of his strategy. Iran? No. He did it with Iran in order to... You don't? No. Do you think deep down... Netanyahu's been around a long, long time I sort of have a sense of a lot of people around the world now.

40:48I think we have leaders of some of the more high-profile countries, America, Russia, Israel, that really are, you know, that sometimes cynicism about politicians is justified. Of course. This is the case with a lot of leaders. But you think what he's doing in Iran, you think it's all about the Iran nuclear program? There's no other broader political agenda going on? I don't see a broader political agenda, especially with Iran, talking with them, knowing them very well, and also at the level of the people, it's not only Netanyahu. Do you see someone from the opposition being against what's going on with Iran in Israel?

41:26No. Let me bring you again closer to your region. When we look around the region, many, many places seem to be in a situation of serious instability. almost failed states. Libya, Syria, Lebanon's not functioning very well. I mean, this is very problematic, right? I mean, these are major countries with serious resources who ought to be contributors to stability and are deeply destabilized and stable. Tell me, tell us what's your analysis of this situation? What's going to happen over the next 20 years? Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya? I will answer even though I will disappoint Alistair. The failures of the region and whatever you describe is not because of the region.

42:16It's because of the international community. It's because of the Arab Spring, which tend to be an Arab winter in this region. And I see this also in a number of discussions that we have in the European Union. In Brussels, we're discussing about Egypt, for example. Egypt, a country that has a lot of challenges. They have certain things that we don't like. We don't have it in Europe. And you know what is the position of some of my colleagues? We need to go and impose to Egypt this and this and this. But is it possible to impose in a country of 100 million people to change? They need to have the ownership of the change and that's what we're trying to do with the countries of the region so with the arab spring the west and i'm in favor of the west don't get me wrong we were under the impression that we will change the region in a western democracy sorry this is this is the gulf this is the middle east and you need to know you know i will mention one example i was in as a minister of foreign Affairs, Association Council of European Union with Jordan.

43:31And all the ministers of foreign affairs, we were there together with my then colleague. He's still the foreign minister of Jordan Eyman. And one of my colleagues from a Scandinavian country, he was pushing him, you need to change this, and women rights, LGBTI, a lot of issues that, you know, for a Western democracy, you know, they were very, very valid points. You know what was his reaction? Before you dictate to me what I have to do for my country, you need to see geography. The neighbor of my country is Iran, whether the neighbor of your country is Denmark. So as a European Union, I'm going back to the European Union.

44:16That is where we need to raise awareness. We know this region as a European Union and the West in general, to criticize also the West. Whenever we want to sell military weapons. We know these countries. We go to those countries of the region that are rich. But at the same time, we're the first to criticize them. We need to have an honest relationship with the countries of the region and work together. So are you basically saying that the West is often arrogant and hypocritical? Of course, especially towards this region. Why did you think I would be disappointed by that? No, I'm talking about the Arab Spring and the Arab Winter.

44:56And I remember back then everybody celebrating about the Arab Spring. Libya, it's because of Syria. All the countries of the region. I mean, we cannot impose. We pass the colonial era. We cannot impose in any country. We need to work with the countries of the region. You're describing something very difficult. On the one hand, you say we must not impose. On the other hand, you say we need international law. And then back on the one hand, you say, yeah, but nobody pays any attention to international law. The strong do what they want. The weak must accept what they do. International law is hypocritical.

45:31Look at Turkey. Look at the US. What is the kind of international law that is actually possible? What kind of international structure is possible? Are we supposed to be defending state sovereignty, human rights, international borders? I mean, what do you think is the important thing? If there's going to be any international law, what do you think the two or three fundamental principles of this law should be? And how are you going to get the US, China, Russia to agree to these things? The most important is the state's sovereignty. I still believe in the role of the state. So the most important is the state's sovereignty.

46:09Regarding how we'll do this and how we'll reach that stage, I don't aspire Cyprus to play the leading role. We are not a country that we can impose to anybody. But we need to understand, and I really believe this, we are living in a new international order. And I can speak on behalf also of the European Union. As a European Union, we have a special role to play and we can bring all different actors. You mentioned the United States, China, Russia, other actors. we can bring all the actors together to sit together and discuss and agree the way forward. This is the real power, I believe, of the European Union.

46:53We're doing this interview on the ninth anniversary of the Brexit referendum in 2016. I just ask you, you were a government spokesman. Imagine you were a government spokesman for Boris Johnson's government. Tell me... He was a colleague of mine as a minister of foreign affairs. I know. Tell me a Brexit benefit. For me? Anyone? Or for the UK? Anyone? For the UK? Any Brexit benefit? Not a single one. I fully respect the will of the British people, but I was against Brexit. It is a loose, loose situation, both for the UK and the European Union. And that's why I'm very glad that we start again working together.

47:32So in your presidency, this upcoming, what? We are going to work. Okay, I will mention also this publicly. We're planning also to invite the British Foreign Minister during the Gimnik and also the European EU Minister during the Gimnik. Gimnik is the informal meeting of the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the European Union. Because we need to work together with the UK. And we're very glad that we see this positive reaction from the new British government. I was Sherpa during it. Sherpa is the advisor of the President for EU Affairs. And I was Sherpa during the Brexit. And I remember, I don't criticize the government back then, but I remember the government back then saying that the yes vote, the remain vote would be 60, 70 percent.

48:17That was the message in Brussels. Your party, Rory, David Cameron and George Osborne, complacency. Your friend, David Cameron, Alistair. Complacency. Well, listen, it would be lovely to talk to you. Mr. President, thank you. That was very generous of you to give so much time. And I'm sorry that I'm not with you in person, but thank you. We really appreciate it. And it's been a fascinating conversation. Thank you very much, first of all, for the interview, but also for dealing with this region. And as I told you before, it's very important that the UK is part of the region, because UK, first, and France, secondly, they have a responsibility for this region.

48:54Ah, history. You're not saying Britain is more powerful than France, are you? No, no, no, no. Historically. I'm just trying to correct your speed here. Historically, they have a responsibility for this region. We're working together with the UK and France to raise awareness about the importance of this. Do you think we, the Brits, should feel more guilty about some of the consequences of colonization? Of course. I'm not in favor of colonization. I mean, I don't want to close with an unhappy note, but one of the reasons of the Cyprus problem today is the divide and rule policy of the British colonization.

49:30organization here. But at the same time, I'm very glad that at least I can have this discussion with the British Prime Minister. Before 10 years, 20 years, that wasn't possible. Not 20 years. You had a good guess. 10 years, I'll give you. Before that was fine. Listen, it was very nice to see the symbol of the crown. Yeah, but you have also the symbol of the republic above from the symbol of the crown. Yeah. Well, that's a happier note than the earlier one. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. President, so much. Thank you. Thank you. So, Alistair, that was great. We also interviewed the Greek prime minister sometime back, and I wonder whether the two of them didn't remind me a little bit of each other.

50:17OK. Whether that's not, there's a sort of cultural thing going on where they're both very sort of smart, educated, quite centrist, internationally focused. Charming. Charming and maybe that's the sort of flavour of modern Greece, modern Cyprus. Yeah. Am I onto something there or am I missing something? I don't know. I don't know because I don't know enough of the other politicians who are around. Because the only way I could get there from where I'd been in France was that I had a rather convoluted route. And the quickest way to get there was to go a couple of days early for all those complicated reasons we don't need to bore our listeners with.

50:52But it meant I actually had a little bit of time in Cyprus before we did the interview. And, you know, I was able to talk to quite a lot of interesting people in all sorts of different walks of life. And one thing to tell you, Roy, as you probably know this, and your father would certainly have learned this, Cyprus is a nest of espionage. There's a lot of kind of stuff going on down there for all sorts of obvious reasons. Turkey, the fact that it's so close to all these sort of difficult parts of the world, the British bases and all that. So I was able to speak to quite a lot of people and got very, very, very different sort of take on him.

51:26And actually, when I finally met him, I was quite surprised about how very, very charming. I mean, it's a shame you weren't there because, of course, when you're in person, you get the bits at either end of the interview and the small talk and the tour of the building and the going out for dinner with his team and all that sort of stuff. Very, very charming. Very warm. I thought actually had a really interesting take on some of the issues that we were talking about. He wasn't the kind of line-to-take merchant. He had a few notes that he'd done in his own hand. I was trying to read them upside down about what he was saying.

52:00But were they in Greek? Well, because I was trying to read upside down and because I couldn't get my glasses quite focused on it. I honestly don't know, but I was really trying out. But he scribbled his own thoughts. I think they were in English, actually. And that's because before we came on, one of his people told me that his English is good, but it's not his mother tongue. So he's a little bit nervous about doing a whole hour in English. And that's why we had a little chat beforehand to get going. So I think his notes were in English. So my point is he'd prepared. He had certain points he was going to land.

52:28I worried at the very start he was going to give us a little bit of a speech. But he very quickly, I thought, got into a real sense of give and take and conversation and what have you. And I thought he said some really interesting things. I loved his answer to you about small countries. Yeah, and presumably that resonates with your conversations that you've had with other small countries. No, it doesn't in a way. Oh, okay. I'll tell you why. I think a lot of small countries, Eddie Rahm was an exception. Eddie Rahm, the Prime Minister of Albania. He definitely has that mindset of sort of operate as though you're a big country.

52:57But I think quite a lot of small countries do sort of think, okay, well, I'm not as big as this country. I'm not as big as that country. I have to play my role, Dan. He was saying basically, when he turns up at European summits, He thinks, no, I'm not just going to talk about Turkey. I'm going to talk about, you know, digitalization. I'm going to talk about immigration. I'm going to talk about trade relations with the United States. And I think that was an interesting insight to me about how you have to behave. Yeah. I mean, obviously, when we talked to Gabriel Attal, the former Prime Minister of France, there was a certain amount of international stuff, although less, in fact, that I would have wanted.

53:30We found it with Albania, where, of course, there was a lot of that stuff. And of course, as you can imagine, when we do British prime ministers or Angela Merkel or Americans, we get a lot of that. The Prime Minister of Denmark, I guess, was a sort of example in the other direction, wasn't it? She was a bit reluctant to develop grand theories of international human rights and this, that and the other. She had a very focused vision of this is Denmark. You almost felt she was talking directly to a Danish electorate. She wasn't really trying to kind of charm the international media. Yeah, no, that's a good point.

54:00The other thing I find quite interesting about him, actually, I'll tell you one thing I found really interesting, and particularly given Keir Starmer's been going through quite a rough patch domestically, was just how warm about him he was. And I'm very good at detecting bullshit amongst leaders. And we carried on that conversation later. And it was really, really, really genuine and interesting. But I think most people who encountered Starmer when I was in Parliament one-on-one really liked him in person. I think that there is often that thing, isn't there, that people really love John Major, now he's no longer in office and quite liked him one-on-one.

54:36that Starmer's clearly, he's not a big sort of global level bullshitter. He's a smart, thoughtful lawyer with a serious professional career. He's actually got a certain sort of energy and vim. I felt last time I saw him, I was really struck by actually how much more energy he seems to have in person than he's necessarily able to communicate on a stage. So I wonder whether that isn't right and whether all of them wouldn't slightly sense that. I mean, you get the sense that Trump certainly likes him. Carney certainly seems to be able to get on with him well. Yeah, Macron and he get on pretty well.

55:09And of course, don't forget the, you know, in a way, one of the big bilateral issues between us and Cyprus with all the sort of rich and difficult history are these sovereign bases, which they don't think are sovereign British. And they just sort of muddle along together. And you could imagine easily the leader of a small country like Cyprus dealing with a big country like the UK and allowing that to define the relationship. And this goes back to him sort of clearly seeing himself, and I'm sure psychologically this is the right thing to do, is being on a level, dealing with all the difficult issues that confront all world leaders.

55:45So yeah, I thought he was pretty effective. And what did you make of the whole, the Turkey, the Cyprus problem or the Cyprus issue as it's called? Because it was really interesting when he was saying, you know, we have very good alliances with all countries. And then he sort of slight quizzical, apart from one. And when he was talking about inviting Britain and other countries and all the countries of the region, he wasn't exactly warm and effusive about saying, yeah, we'd love it if Erdogan turned up. No, no, when he threw that at him, there was a slight pause before he was like, oh, yeah, I'm in short.

56:16I mean, if he was. So I think that's right. And I think it's a glimpse, presumably, into the fact that this is the existential definitional issue of Cypriot politics. You know, this was a country that got independence from Britain, initially on a path to unify with Greece. So the initial idea is they wanted to be part of Greece. And then they went for independence, and then they were invaded. So I'm guessing he's coming from a tradition which is, to put it mildly, profoundly Cypriot nationalist and profoundly horrified by Turkey and the Turkish invasion. And you can't, I think, operate in Cypriot politics without understanding that most of your voter base and everything that's happening around you is about the Turkish invasion, the illegal Turkish invasion.

57:03Just to flip it to you on Northern Ireland quickly, and I'll maybe finish on this, is that, of course, to actually get out of that, they have to decide whether they are or are not prepared to accept a two-state solution. They're still working on the old UN model that says no two-state solution. They're going to have to integrate this whole thing. And that's what he's still pushing. And, of course, the Turks say, uh-uh, two-state solution. This has gone on long enough. These borders have been here for 50 years. We're two separate communities. This is only going to work with a two-state solution.

57:32Yeah, well, I think if he were to go down that path, his very, very impressive electoral success last time would not necessarily be repeated. So I got a very strong sense that two-state solution is a non-starter. And of the kind of quotes, real people that I met around the place, I did hear two of them say the phrase that I know quite a lot of them may think, but very few of them might say it publicly. One of them who did say, you do realise that the only good Turk is a dead Turk. So there was a sort of, there is that sort of, that level of brutality in their thinking for some of them. And I've got to say, maybe I'll close on this, Rory.

58:09When I checked into the hotel where we did one of our episodes from, and I opened the windows and pulled, you know, it was very, very nice view, but over into the, what the Turks call the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, brackets, self-styled, everybody else would say. and what the Cypriots call the occupied territories. And what the people on that side of the buffer zone have done is they've mown into the hillside this massive, massive Turkish flag. And I thought, that's clever trolley. That's really clever. I then went out for dinner with some of the president's team who were very, very nice.

58:52We had a really nice evening out and got back to the hotel. And by then it was dark. and this massive, made-out-of-a-lawn-mire flag was now lit up, bright lights, the flag. So they're at least keeping their sense of humour. But I think we're a long way from resolving the issue. But in the end, it will have to be resolved. I don't think you can keep on forever. And the other thing I heard is that the United Nations, who obviously have to police and protect this buffer zone, this is where some of the other things we've talked about in the podcast come into play, they have been badly damaged by the continual underfunding of the united nations so actually that's helping the people who are trying to you know make the border more porous and the smugglers and the criminals and all the rest of it so let's speak up for the un to for them to get uh properly resourced again i guess the final thing just just as a coda for us is that it's it's such a privilege to be able to meet heads of state from all these different countries um including the president to Syria.

59:53But as usual, there will be so many things that we're missing, which will be immediately obvious to a separate. So they may be worrying about corruption. They may be worrying more about Russian money. They may be thinking, yeah, all very well. He's very charming and talks well about international affairs, but he's not really driving through a domestic agenda in the way we want. Who knows, really? But I was very taken with him. And I think it's a wonderful thing to do. And I'm looking forward to traveling to other places with you. Thank you. Excellent. See you soon.

1:00:23Thank you.