15: Hillary Clinton: Fighting Putin, the Return of Trump, and the Killing of Osama Bin Laden

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1:50Welcome to another episode of The Rest is Politics Leading with me, Alistair Campbell. And with me, Rory Stewart. With a very, very, very special guest. I'm not even going to bother introducing with a CV, Hillary Rodham Clinton, probably best known for her role as current Chancellor of Queen's University, Belfast. Thanks very, very much for talking to us. Can we just start with that? We obviously we're not going to go through your whole life and times, but there just seems something quite full circle about you being here now with Bill on the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement. at a university of which you become chancellor.

2:31You're both in your 70s, and yet you seem to kind of keep going and going and going and going. Well, there's a lot to go for. There's a lot of extraordinary opportunities and work to be done. And I was delighted to be asked to be chancellor, the first woman chancellor at Queen's University, Belfast. And I didn't anticipate or even think that it would be coinciding during my tenure with the 25th anniversary. But I'm so grateful. We've had an amazing series of events already, bringing together everyone from past, present, and future who has a stake in the Good Friday Agreement and making sure that it's a living document that improves the lives and opportunities of the people of Northern Ireland, but continues to represent what it is, a diplomatic triumph because of the hard work, patience of leaders.

3:34and people back in the 90s. Thank you for coming. Very excited to see you. I wonder, one way we'd love to go is to get a little bit of a reflection on the US's role in the world. And it strikes me that there's something both very moving, but a bit troubling 25 years on. Because when we look at the situation in Sudan or Ethiopia or Somalia or even Yemen, And one doesn't perhaps feel America's centrality in the way that we did 25 years ago in relation to this peace agreement here in Ireland. What is your reflection on that? Do you think the world is changing? We're into a new global order? Well, I think we're always evolving.

4:15And whether it's a new global order or new alliances or new adversarial relationships, that's part of what you have to expect to be occurring at any time in history. I actually think that currently under the Biden administration, the United States has reasserted leadership. That doesn't mean we are involved everywhere all the time. What's that movie that won the Academy Award? You know, everything, everywhere, all at once. But it does mean that there's been certainly a reinvigoration of the Atlantic Alliance, given the threats from Russia with its invasion of Ukraine. I think there's been some smart moves in the Pacific around uniting countries to deal with the challenges posed by China.

5:08But there's always more to be done. And you mentioned a series of countries that are in terrible troubles right now from civil conflict and terrorism and so much else. So it's an ongoing set of challenges that the United States has to be meeting. And I think there is some progress in recovering from what was inherited from the prior administration and the chaos that was engendered. But there's still a lot more that has to be done to rebuild the trust and credibility of the United States. And where does Europe and the UK in particular fit into that sense of America and America's role in the world?

5:58When Tony was prime minister and your husband was president, we always sense that really meant something, a special relationship. Feels a little bit frayed. And I just wondered your take on where Britain is in the world and where Europe is in relation to some of these challenges that you're talking about. Well, first, I'd say that the relationship remains central. It remains central in what is an ongoing struggle between democracy and autocracy. I do think the special relationship with the UK continues. It is important to be tending it. You can't take it for granted. I think the relationship that has been built around summoning the resolve of Europe to support Ukraine has been quite remarkable.

6:46And I would not have predicted that it would have been as strong and sustained as it has turned out to be. But you also have what are continuing and to some extent kind of perpetual challenges in the relationship. And we saw that recently with President Macron going off to China. And, you know, once again, as is kind of the script of a French president saying we need to be independent of the United States. We need to have our own military and defense. Well, yeah, we've heard that for decades. But when push comes to shove, the partnership is stronger. Did that worry you? I've heard it so many times from, you know, so many French presidents.

7:28It doesn't worry me because I don't see any potential strategic approach to realizing it because there isn't a standing army in Europe that is a EU instrument. There is not a currency that is going to really compete with the dollar. I think that's been proven over and over again. And I don't think that individual countries and leaders can be as impactful alone in whether it's diplomacy with China or anything else as they can be in alliance with the United States. One of the things that seems to have changed also over the last 25 years is the focus on global poverty. So when you were very centrally involved in things, I remember very well dealing with you when you were sectioned state, the fight against global poverty and particularly the focus on sub-Saharan Africa was very central.

8:23We were coming out of live aid and making poverty history. We're now in an era where the number of people living in extreme poverty in Africa is nearly three and a half times greater than it was in 1980. And yet we're not really talking about it very much. What's happened over the last generation? Why do you think we've lost focus on this issue? You know, Rory, I think it's really an important question. And there was a greater emphasis on global poverty and we were making progress. I think to some extent we have lost ground because of COVID and because of donor fatigue and because of the failure of a lot of governments to maintain democratic rule and be able to make investments in their people.

9:14So it's a very difficult continuing problem. So I think we have to once again get back to talking about it, emphasizing it. And, you know, when you were in government in the UK, there was an understanding that the UK was making smart investments by investing in Sub-Saharan Africa, other places in the world to try to alleviate the worst effects of poverty, but also to try to empower people to be able to make better lives for themselves. The UK has retreated from that. The back and forth between the Obama Trump and now the Biden administration to try to maintain our financial commitment has been a political football.

10:07So there are other priorities. And there, as I say, this kind of sense of donor fatigue. And it's coming at exactly the wrong time because we are in this competition for hearts and minds with China. And I think that the Chinese have made it a priority to have big showy investments, mostly in infrastructure in sub-Saharan Africa. That doesn't mean that they're actually increasing jobs and income of the people in those countries because they often import workers and they export the profits and the benefits. But they are demonstrating a commitment. And we did that in a very big way through the PEPFAR program under President George W.

10:51Bush in dealing with the scourge of AIDS. But we don't do it in a, you know, in a sustained way. And so I think it's a continuing challenge, both on a humanitarian and moral basis, but also on a strategic and economic one. How much damage do you think Donald Trump's tenure did to the United States and indeed to the wider world? I think his four years were extraordinarily damaging to our credibility, to our standing in the world, to the predictability and stability that people should be able to expect from American leadership, regardless of what party is in the White House. And I think that his erratic behavior, his courting of authoritarian leaders, you know, sent a message that we weren't even going to stand up for the fundamental foundational principles of democracy.

11:48Do you worry he could come back? Well, he is likely to come back as the Republican nominee. If the primary elections were to kick in right now, he would be the nominee. I don't think he can win a general election, but, you know, we can't take anything for granted and have to work hard against that. And how does one beat him? What are your reflections on how one beats Donald Trump in an election? You have to win this bizarre, anachronistic thing called the Electoral College because, you know, I beat him by nearly three million votes. Biden beat him by seven million votes. But in the Electoral College, I lost by 77 ,000 votes and Biden won by 100 ,000 votes.

12:30So the popular vote in both elections was pretty significantly in my favor and Biden's favor. But the electoral college margin was very, very thin. So you have to understand that the Republican Party has decided it cannot compete in elections on the ideas and the policies and the personalities of their leaders. they have to shrink the electorate. They have to make it difficult for minorities, for young people to vote. Anyone who they think might vote against them needs to be somehow written out of the electoral map. And through gerrymandering and voter suppression tactics, aim to win enough votes in the electoral college, regardless of the popular margin.

13:21So that's a real problem for a democracy. And in terms of populism and the way that populism works and the way that Trump exploits classic populist tactics, how do you as somebody who's a kind of sort of symbol of the center ground of moderation, how do you make the arguments against the populist? How do you defeat a populist apart from the mathematics, the electoral college? How do you communicate in a way that defeats a populist? Well, I think that's a big question for parties of the center, center left. And I think it's a question we haven't adequately answered. We've had, you know, very effective communicators, you know, like my husband or Tony Blair, who have been able to, you know, win the, you know, the votes of people who might not necessarily agree with everything, but thought that they were making a good case and they were certainly better than the alternative.

14:14And so we've got to do a better job in making that argument ourselves. But to directly answer, if you look at the election in 2020, you know, Trump did a lot better than he did against me. More people ended up voting for him after having seen all of the nonsense, all of the instability, all of the demagoguery. And he, in my view, largely lost because he so badly fumbled COVID. You know, his behavior, his refusal to take responsibility, his grandstanding when he himself was so deathly sick from COVID, had to be literally taken to the hospital because he was in such dire straits. He lost because of how he handled COVID.

15:01If he had handled COVID in even a minimally competent way, there is a very good chance he might have been reelected. That's pretty terrifying. Well, it's terrifying because there's so many other things that he mishandled and that going after our institutions, undermining the rule of law, everything which he does and stands for. But I think the issue is it's all politics has always been about entertainment and performance, right? You've had a recent prime minister who was basically a performer, and we had a recent president who was basically a performer. And people got to the point where they didn't really care that much what he stood for as long as he entertained them.

15:43And as long as he came out and said outrageous things and insulted people that they would like to see insulted, he was just fine. They're both out, though. They're both out for the time being. They're both out. And part of the reason they're both out is because they both went too far. You'll have to speak for your former prime minister. I certainly won't do that. Yeah, he went too far on COVID. And, you know, he was doing daily press conferences in the United States. That's when he said, drink bleach. That's when he said, try this veterinarian medicine that's used to treat parasites and sheep.

16:20I mean, that's when he said all this bizarre stuff. And that registered on people. What did you learn about tackling Trump, both about politics and the sort of thing you described, but also about yourself? Because I find it almost impossible to imagine what it's like to take him on the way you did, have the best arguments, have the best campaign, have the best policies, and you lose. Well, I wrote a whole book about it because it was hard to understand what happened, which is the title of the book. You know, look, I came out of all those debates with big leads in public opinion polling that was done, you know, tens of millions of people.

16:56I mean, 80 million people watch the debates. They all saw us. They, you know, they they responded to pollsters that, you know, I was by far more effective and all of that. But my election outcome had more to do with external events at the end than with Trump himself. And, you know, the combination of all kinds of unprecedented interference in our election, I could watch the impact. So, you know, that's to me more of the explanation that Trump won than I lost because of bogus charges and stolen emails and all the rest of it. But how do you deal with that as a human being? How do you build from that?

17:43You know, look, it was so bizarre. And I actually wished Trump well. I mean, you know, unlike him, I conceded and I had more reason not to than he did, but I did. And I said, you know, we all wish him well. We have one president at a time. We want our president to succeed. And I, you know, basically just went off, walked in the woods and started thinking about what had happened and then began piecing together. And we're now still learning stuff, Alistair. I mean, we just had a criminal trial in the United States where a guy who was one of the trolls against me crossed over from vitriolic, untrue attacks on me to targeting mostly black voters, telling them they could text their vote for me.

18:23And thousands did. And so if he had just continued to lie about me, he would have had no consequences. But because he moved into subverting the election, he was convicted of electoral interference. So there was so much going on in that election that we're still just finding out about. Trump basically was indicted just now because of his interference in the election. Can I sort of develop Alice's point on the puzzle? So I ran against Boris Johnson and was defeated. And I found it horrifying. I mean, I went through a very, very difficult period in my life thinking not just that I'd lost, but I'd lost against this guy.

18:57You know, how on earth can they possibly have chosen this person? And it would be nice to see how you personally came through it. I mean, was it a difficult few weeks or months? How did you come to terms that you talk about walking in the woods? I mean, what was the personal impact? No, it was difficult. But, you know, I did get more votes. That was some comfort. I did get sandbagged at the end. That made me feel worse. What? To lose when you got more votes made me feel worse. It made it worse in one way, but it was also ratifying in another way. Right. So there was a lot going on. And what I did, in addition to walking in the woods, was to just dive into the data and the events to try to understand it, because it did not make sense to me.

19:41And we're going to keep learning about the 2016 election and what happened in the United States, the combination of, you know, psychological operations, Cambridge Analytica and all the rest of it, Russian interference, you know, stolen materials that were weaponized and lied about. I mean, it just was so unprecedented. So in a funny way, that was for me a kind of saving grace. All right, Hillary, let's take a break. BJ's Wholesale Club makes holiday hosting so easy we called in the ultimate host to talk about it. Mrs. Claus here. You think Santa has it tough delivering all over the world? Try cooking for hundreds of elves.

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21:43Welcome back to The Restless Politics Leading with me, Rory Schert. And me, Alistair Campbell, with Hillary Clinton. Now, you know, as well as anybody, how important pictures are. One picture that I'd really like you to reflect on is the one when you, President Obama, Vice President Biden, small number of military and officials in the Situation Room in the White House watching the raid on bin Laden? Just talk us through that. You know, I thought that the decision making around whether or not to go after bin Laden and how to go after him was one of the best examples of presidential decision making that I know of.

22:23And, you know, a lot's been written about it, but it was a very small group of us. And we began meeting and reviewing the intelligence, but the intelligence, to be fair, was suggestive, but certainly not conclusive. And so we subjected the intelligence to what we call red teaming, where you bring in people who weren't involved in collecting it, weren't even involved in the hunt for bin Laden. They did something else to evaluate it. We had two different teams. They basically came back and said, you know, there's like a 40 to 60 percent credibility assessment. And so we just went over and over. We brought in the special forces commander, Admiral McRaven, to talk about what a raid would look like.

23:04We brought in people who would talk about what a predator drone strike would look like. We went through all of it. And as I say, it was literally just around one table, the group of us involved. And at the end of it, the president came in and made each of us go around the table and tell him what we would do. And that was such... If you were president. No, what we would advise him to do. So, you know, starting with the vice president, the secretary of defense, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the director of the CIA, the secretary of state. And we all had to tell him in front of everybody else what we recommended he do.

23:43And it was hard. And I give credit to everybody around the table. There was no chorus of, you know, trying to figure out what does he want to hear and I'm going to join the chorus. People said, don't do it. People said, if you do do it, do it by a missile, not by a raid. That way we don't risk losing any of our folks. We also don't know if we really got bin Laden, but it's safer. Go ahead and do the raid. We understand the risks. Everybody was on the record as thoughtful and careful as each of us could be in making our recommendations. And then, of course, the president had to make the decision.

24:16And so he gathered all of that from us and went off to think about it and made the decision to order the raid. Now, the raid had been planned very carefully because we'd had some bad examples in situations like when President Carter wanted to rescue the hostages that revolutionary government, the new government of Iran were holding from our embassy. The helicopter crashed. So here we are going to be sending helicopters from Afghanistan into a place called Abbottabad, Pakistan, which happened to be the city where the military academy of Pakistan was, which is why you'll never convince me people in that government did not know bin Laden was there.

25:01But that's a topic for another conversation. So, yeah, we were going to send these helicopters in. They had to land at this compound. They had to go in. They had to do whatever needed to be done with anyone who would be confronting them. They had to either kill or capture bin Laden. Then they had to get him out. They had to get the helicopters up. They had to get back across Afghanistan border. I mean, the whole thing was so fraught. And so we made this decision. It was tightly, tightly held. And it was, you know, something that we were all holding our breath watching as we watched the video of the helicopters landing.

25:39And we couldn't see what went on inside the compound, but we could see one of the helicopters literally crashing. Right. And it crashed because its tail hit a barbed wire that we didn't know was there when they planned for the you never know everything. And then so that meant we had to bring in another helicopter to take out the people who were in that helicopter that got disabled. And we had to blow up the helicopter because it was a stealth helicopter with very advanced technology. All of this had to happen like as quickly as possible. So I am very proud to have played a role in that. I'm very impressed by the extraordinary ability of the Navy SEALs to go in and pull that off.

26:26it was the most intense like 72 hours I think of my public life knowing about it, waiting for it, watching it and I think it made a difference in the amount of terrorism that we have seen since and there was also a very difficult but right decision made two right decisions, one, what to do with the body after doing the DNA to determine it was bin Laden buried at sea, no grave for terrorist, you know, idolaters to come and worship at and don't release the pictures. Don't release the pictures. One of the things that I've always really admired about you is that you never have struck me as a classic politician.

27:09I see classic politicians as people who are being on transmit all the time. But I remember coming to see you when you were sectioned state on Afghanistan a couple of times, and I was just struck by how well you listened. And I wonder whether you could reflect a little bit on that, on how you've managed to maintain the ability to listen when most of my colleagues on both sides. Can I add a point to that? One of your other major strands to your life and your public service is about the role of women in politics. Is part of your answer the fact that you're a woman? It is part of the answer. I, you know, I never thought I would be an electoral politician.

27:46I always, unlike, you know, some people we know, I always thought that there would be a role to participate in public political debates on behalf of primarily children and families, obviously women. And so I was always motivated by a sense of rolling my sleeves up and getting stuff done. And I really take a lot of joy in that. I mean, that to me is worth the price of being in politics with all the other stuff that comes at you. So I have other resources. It's not just resilience. It's a real sense of purpose about why I keep going into the fray, You know, why I keep lifting my head up and, you know, dealing with the slings and arrows.