154. Maro Itoje: Inequality, Identity, and Hope

30:52But I would be lying if I said that I didn't want to, I think, hurt. You want to go as far as to hurt and to help your team win. It's all with a purpose. And what happens with, like, so you were captain of England and then recently you've been captain of the British-Nirish Lions, where teams from four countries come together as one team, which you led. And yet these are players that you've hurt and they've hurt you. How does that kind of dynamic develop? That's the amazing thing about the Lions. The Lions is well and truly a very, very unique institution. And I know you have a little bit of experience there where you have four different nations.

31:30They have four different types of ways of playing, four different philosophies, and you all blend. And it's the cultural differences, it's the language differences, et cetera, et cetera. And if anything, that also goes to show the power of sport, the unity of sport, that you can put your differences aside for a greater goal. And that is something that I've been very, very honored and privileged to be a part of. Do you feel that one of the problems, I don't know, I feel one of the problems, maybe for somebody like you who is so famous and a kind of big figure and a celebrity and a role model, is that you're often being asked to play so many different roles.

32:14people will be projecting onto you, now we want Mario to champion our charity, now we want him to appear on some celebrity show, now we want him to talk about politics. How do you manage people's expectations outside sport, the way that you become something more than just a really good rugby player? You become something that people want to project other things onto. I think any individual, and this is whether you play sport or you're any Tom, Dick or Harry on the street, I think you have to know who you are. First and foremost, you have to know who you are. You have to know what you're passionate about and you have to have a strong sense of what your values are.

32:55I think once you establish those three things, I think everything else flows from there. So if this was a show about ballet, maybe I'll do it, but I wouldn't be able to give you much. I wouldn't be able to give you much. I try and stay around the areas that are of interest to me, especially if things like charities or things to that nature. There's so many good causes in the world, but I can't support every single one. So I've chosen like the areas in which are of interest to me, African art, education, poverty, inequality, and they're the sort of the areas that I tend to stay on. Do you think one day you might go into politics, either as an elected politician or as somebody who works in politics?

33:44Because you're 30 now, which I know is young. You're on the back nine of your rugby career, aren't you? Which is amazing, you're 30. So you must be thinking about what you're going to do afterwards. I just wonder whether politics in any shape or form would be part of that. Well, after reading Politics on the Edge... Who wrote that? Who wrote that, Maro? After reading Politics on the Edge, which apparently is available in all good bookstores near you. It put you off. See, this is what you've done. Right, Maro, get back to my diary, which shows, yes, it's difficult, but great things can be done.

34:18You've put Maro off, Rory. It's an outrage. No, but in all seriousness, it's something that is of deep interest to me. People often ask me, what would you do if you weren't a rugby player? And I actually find that a very difficult question to answer because I have so many interests and I think I could have gone any which way and one of them was or is politics. So I'm not sure. I'm not putting anything off the table. The opportunity to affect real change, the opportunity to put legislation in place for the betterment of society, I think is a very attractive one. But it also has its drawbacks as well.

34:58What about sports politics? The sort of Sebastian Coe route, Does that have interest you? Potentially, but I'm actually more attracted to real politics than force politics. One of the things you're interested in is international development, poverty, education, and we're doing this, of course, as part of the Be Hope campaign. Tell us a little bit about programs you've seen on poverty which have interested you, which have seemed effective, things that have made a difference, things that have caught your attention. As you've kind of alluded to earlier, I've been involved with a number of charities in the past and I've seen some of their programs and some of the programs have been good.

35:39And you see the people, the kids, the individuals in said program, and they're having a good time. You can see the progress, you can see the growth. But as soon as those individuals go back into their environment or they go back into their unfortunate disadvantaged society, it almost seems as if they were never really there. So I think the programs that make sense and make long lasting change are the ones that are there for the long term. Like to make change in someone and whether that is a child or whether that is taking someone out of poverty, it needs to be sustained. It needs to be over a period of time.

36:21So some of the work that I currently do now with my foundation, the Pearl Fund, is to try and do that. We support kids from the start of their primary education to the very end of their education. So that's almost the shy of two decades worth of support. And I think we need long lasting things to really make change. I mean, the reason that this campaign is happening now is because the assessment of the Sustainable Development Goals is that they're kind of 20 % on track to be met by 2030, which is clearly not great. But at the same time, you can point to deaths from malaria, deaths from AIDS, girls in education.

36:59You can see lots of things where the progress is being made. Okay, Maru, Alistair, quick break, and then back for more. This episode is brought to you by Google. We won't fully realise the potential gains of AI unless we make it accessible and useful for everybody across the whole UK workforce. That's why Google, for example, are working closely with trade unions. AI and trade unions may not sound like the most natural of partners, but the union movement has got a proud history of supporting members from across the economy and preparing them for the ever-changing world of work. That's why Google partnered, for example, with the community union in the UK on a people's first skills pilot called AI Works.

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39:35I wanted to ask you, this isn't the first time I've done a podcast with you, because when I used to do a podcast with Grace, my daughter, we taught you. I don't know if you remember this, but I asked you, because we asked everybody, if you could put together a six-a-side team from today or from history to change the world for the better who would you pick do you remember vaguely what's it to change the world for the better or was it just who i found interesting no it was to change the world it was a team to change the world um all right um who did i pick i'll give you a clue five of them were black okay muhammad ali would have been in there i'm a big fan of him one of my heroes is kwame and krumah was he there he was there uh malcolm X is also one of my heroes.

40:18He was on the bench. He was on the bench. He was on the bench. I'll tell you, you had Nelson Mandela, Muhammad Ali, Michelle Obama, Chimamanda Adichie, the writer. Yeah. Yeah. And you had Ghana's first president, Kwame Nkrumah, and you had Mother Teresa. Oh, she wasn't black. I know. I said fine. I think you went better for a bit of PR. And you said your bench. You didn't know that. Your bench was Oprah Winfrey, Malcolm X, and Martin Luther King. I thought I'd take Oprah off. We take her off. Take her off. Maybe this is the thing to bring both of you in. Just as we sort of come towards an end and think about this big campaign, one of the things that's really struck me is that we're giving up basically, it feels like, on the fundamental idea of human rights.

41:01One of the things that's been happening over the last 10, 15 years is that we no longer seem to believe as societies that we have obligations to other people, that we have obligations to people who are poorer than us. And you can see it in the States where it's America first, we're not going to have anything to do with anyone else. You can see it in Britain, where people are actually literally going after human rights treaties. You can see it in the way that we think about Ukraine or the way that we think about Gaza or we think about the world. I mean, it feels as though something's happening to our moral consciousness that's different from what it was 10, 15 years ago.

41:36And I wonder whether you felt that, Marif? Yeah, and I think as inequality rises, as things become more and more tough on an individual level, you start to think, oh, how am I able to survive? I need to protect myself. I need to protect my family. And I think that has probably led to the sentiment that you're describing. And I think this is true from a national level, so within the UK, but also on a global level, that when inequality or human rights or poverty rises, it's not good for national unity. because when the inequality rises, the sentiment between the two classes, for the lack of a better word, becomes more and more heightened.

42:31So it creates an environment that is more and more feverish to harm and danger. And more so, even on a global level, when inequality rises, what happens. Those who are in more disadvantaged environments, societies, what do they look to do? They look for past is new. They look to go to societies where I guess they foresee a better life for themselves and their families. And that leads to increase in pressure in migration. I don't know the stats off-head, but it must be a ridiculous stat in countries, particularly in the developing world once there's a war there how many people look to leave that place and then go to a new country whether that's in the west or the east or whatever but i'm sure it's it's it's stark and one of the problems i think in the uk is that the the media and the and the right project is though everyone wants to come to britain whereas in fact you know this is this is a thing that's happening on right right around the world i'm glad you raised that though rory because i've actually Actually, this afternoon was writing my column for The New World, and I wrote about how I really, really, really hope that the Labour Party conference, Keir Starmer, rediscovers the Keir Starmer that is the passionate believer in human rights and the rule of law and international respect.

43:55Do you think he's not? Well, I think he is. I think he is. But I think that the way the debate on immigration, I really do think he's that, but I don't think we've seen that. So, for example, you know, Rory mentioned the European Convention on Human Rights. I'd like him to stand up and say why we must and will never leave it because this is what it's given us and this is where it came from. And it was Churchill and Bevan and all that stuff. So I think that what you're right about, you know, the Labour government is having a hard time because of the economy and everything else. But I think you're also having a hard time because there's been too much in a way of playing into the people that are actually trying to destroy all these things and saying, yeah, you've got a point about the European Convention.

44:34No, you don't. And here's why. You know, you've got a point that immigration is the single biggest issue. I mean, I was doing the research on the small boats today. You follow this stuff closely. What proportion of the current immigration flow into Britain do you think comes on the small boats? Well, I know it's extremely low. It's 4%. What percentage of the public think it is? 50%. That's a consequence of a debate that, you know, those who believe in these institutions have kind of let slip. So we've got to get it back. And this is where I think to what I was saying earlier, where I feel there's a little bit of a communication problem.

45:13I don't think the public are fully aware of the facts and even the positives of the government and the things that they are doing quite well. You know, I listened to or watched the press conference yesterday with Trump and Sir Keir, and many of the progresses, the nuances of that new trade investment or the adapted trade deal, I'm sure hasn't really got much cut through today. No, I'll tell you why. Because Donald Trump made one observation where he said, you should think about using the military to sort out the small boats issues. And it's on the front page of virtually every newspaper. In other words, that's what I mean about playing into the agenda.

45:57So anyway, there we are. So what you're basically saying, Maro, is that rather than maybe going as an elected politician, you think you might go into politics as Labour's communications director. Is that what you're saying? No, no, no. That's way too easy. I'll get you. I'll get you again. Mario, maybe a final thing for me, which is, I guess, presumably a cliche for you, but does intrigue me, which is, how do you, having had such an incredible young life, having been such a sort of superstar and a hero to so many people, what happens when you're in your 40s and your 50s? What have you learned from seeing other rugby players who are older on the next chapters?

46:35Because nothing presumably is quite the same as scoring a try in front of 80 ,000 people that you can do when you're 50 or 60. I was 49 when I played with Maradona, so I mean, it's not the end of the world, Rizari. Well, unfortunately, I don't score tries that often, but I definitely feel the energy and, you know, I guess the public acclaim when we are successful. And you're right, you can't replicate that, you can't replace that. But what I've observed from people, and this is not only professional rugby players or athletes who then retire, also like retired military personnel or retired people who've been in an institution for a long period of time.

47:21I think the ones that struggle, I think you can struggle for a number of reasons, but the ones that really struggle are the ones who are looking backwards and are living in the past of what they've done. And what I want to do and how I want to be is look positively forward into the future and throw all of myself at what happens next and the type of man that I want to be. Hopefully the family that I have and the career and the difference that I hope to make in that regard. So that's what I will try and do. But that is easier said than done. It's easier said than done. So my final question, Mario, just to wrap up this Be Hope thing.

48:02Give us three things that make you feel really hopeful and positive about the future. It probably goes without saying, but I'm a man of faith. I'm a Christian, so that always gives me hope. And over the last 18 months or so, I've become deeper and deeper in that faith. So that is, for me, a real sense of hope. I think despite the challenges that we face, even looking at the UK, I think sometimes we forget we're a great country. This is a great country which has a lot of opportunities and it's a place where you would rather be if I was to roll the dice or the lottery of birth and had to pick numerous other countries to be born in.

48:53The UK would definitely be up there with one of the places you want to be because of the opportunity, because of the rule of law, because of the economy and the access it gives you. So I think sometimes we forget that as a nation, we forget how powerful we are and the influence that this nation has. Obviously, if you compare it to 100 years ago, you will say it's dwindling. But if you look at it as of today, it's a nation that many other parts of the world would dream of. And I believe in the optimism of people. When I go out and meet people and talk to people and see what they're about, see what they're doing, see the ideas that are coming, there's nothing but to be hopeful and to be optimistic about the future.

49:43I think the hope is something that we control, we as humans control. It's the same thing like if I put it into a rugby context if after we lose a match if we sit in our misery or sit in the negatives we're not hopeful for the future you have to look for the optimism and only through looking and believing in the optimism can things change very good we're lovely to talk to you as ever thank you for your time thank you for your wisdom but next time we come what I'm not offering is for you to tackle me on the rugby pitch that doesn't sound like a pleasant experience I think you do I think you're right.

50:19I think you're right. Well, next time I come, hopefully we can get stuck into more politics and more politics and less sport. I think you're on the track. I think the Roy Stewart book is going to be out of your mind fairly soon. The political track is there. What would you say to young people going into politics now? Would you encourage them? Would you say approach with two eyes opened? I definitely say approach with two eyes open. It's a very, very strange profession. and there's so many things that are weird about it. Your colleagues are strange. The way the parties work are strange. The way the media works is strange.

50:56Social media drives it, man. If you look at the Labour cabinet, basically they are impressive individuals. And my goodness, they look pretty pathetic once you put them together up there in a cabinet. And that was true of a lot of my conservative colleagues. I mean, a lot of them were impressive people before they went into parliament. And it really made them less than the sum of their parts. And I don't know what it is about our culture, but my sense is, in the past, there were times when politics transformed pretty mediocre people and gave them a chance to really shine. And now it's almost doing the opposite.

51:32It's taking some pretty excellent people and making them look pretty diminished. And would you say, is that the culture of Westminster, that the machinery of government, or is that the pressure of the media? Well, I mean, just take one example. Alistair and I were before the election talking about reforms that we could bring in. And we talked about 16-year-old voting or compulsory voting like Australia. But one of the things we agreed on is these stupid reshuffles. The Conservatives had a different prison minister every year. So we said the one thing Keir Starmer should do if he wants to be serious and says that in his first two years, he's not going to reshuffle any of his ministers unless that minister is involved in a major scandal.

52:13Just over a year in, he just swaps 10 of them around the cabinet table. I mean, it's extraordinary. I mean, how are they supposed to do their job? And he's a serious guy. And I think he probably listened to the podcast. In fact, I think we had the conversation with him when he was on the podcast. Yes, yes, we're going to be serious. We're not going to be like the last lot. So what is it that makes them all behave in these ways? It's very strange. You wouldn't run a pizza restaurant like that. You wouldn't run a rugby team like that. sometimes you do change 10 players all at once but not very often well listen mario just be positive be hopeful keep the roy stewart negative as he out of your mind and we'll see you as a labor mp either in the uk or in nigeria sometime i won't be i won't be a politician in nigeria okay if i am at all he'll be in the uk okay all right well it's great to talk to you awesome thank you very much mario thank you for your time best wishes bye way so what do you think of my friend maro he's great it's great to have him and tell us a little bit about you and him though i mean i would have liked to hear a bit more about that at the beginning how did you get to know him what's the deal and you you've got this history with the british lions that you didn't tell us enough about that's because you don't follow sport i mean most rugby fans if i if even today if i bummed into rugby fans they always say what on earth what you do on the british and irish lions tour i went on the tour doing the communications in 2005 just after you'd left the labor government is that right two years after so i went back for the campaign 2005 then i went on the tour of the lions in new zealand which was you know it was an absolute route new zealand won all the tests did they blame you personally for that i got a lot of i got a lot of flat the press absolutely had a field day you weren't actually playing i was not playing it wasn't like my time in maradona i didn't play but anyway one of the great really great guys on that tour a player who's quite an experienced player a guy called richard hill who was part of the team that won the world cup for england who played here at saracens and he said listen we've got this kid coming up through the ranks who's just he's going to be amazing um this was a bit later he said but i think you know rugby's changing and i'm trying to introduce him to people that will talk to him about others dealing with other stuff you know probably live profile pressure etc so he brought me to he brought him to the house this is i can't remember, it was quite a long time ago now.

54:25And the minute I met him, he's just such an impressive guy. He's got really deep kind of values and convictions, very, very intelligent, reads a lot. So yeah, we've stayed in touch and he's kind of risen and risen and risen and risen. I mean, there's pretty much nothing in rugby. The only thing really missing now is winning the World Cup. Tell us a little bit, listening to him, about what you noticed about how he talks about the world now compared to how it used to or what caught you as unusual and what he was saying. Well, I think that because he did study SOAS and because he's also done business, he's really, really interested in trying to work out how the world works.

54:59I think he's become more openly political over time. I think that a lot of sports people find it actually, you know, they're very reticent about coming out and saying, I vote this or I vote that or I care about this or I care about that. Frankly, because a lot of them don't, which is fine because they're just, you know, full on professional athletes. I thought it was really interesting, his reaction to when you were saying, how do you think the government's doing now? He really didn't want to say anything too negative. That, I thought, was where he was a little bit of a politician's answer. But he then gave the context for it, which I thought is absolutely right, where he said, look, you know, if this government fails, we are heading to a very dark place, which is my view as well.

55:41I think that's why it's like Jeremy Hunt said, you know, when we interviewed him on Leading, that, you know, he wants his government to succeed because there is a really dangerous alternative out there at the moment. You know a huge number of sports people and you love sport and you really love sports people. Do you often talk to them about politics or is it often that's often not what you're actually talking to your friends for in sport? Yeah, very much so. Yeah, very much. I think, you know, some of them are very, very political. Alex Ferguson, obviously, is somebody who's got a long track record in speaking up for Labour.

56:11Jorgen Klopp, ex-Liverpool manager, intensely political. I was talking this afternoon to another ex-football manager abroad who was actually literally just phoning for a rant about politics in his country. I won't say where he is because he might be looking for a job there. When you were talking about footballers, I don't think there'd be many footballers or other athletes that talk with quite so much kind of depth about, he really, really thinks about stuff like, you know, poverty in Africa and education in Africa and what have you. But no, I think sports people get a pretty bum rap in terms of the, you know, the sense that they don't care about the world.

56:51I think a lot of them really do. And I also think he's, you know, where he said, I think sport can be so powerful. So when we talk about the Sustainable Development Goals, you know, whether it's to do with health, whether it's to do with education, whether it's to do with girls' education, whether it's to do with the environment, all these different, they can fit into a lot of the SDGs. So, no, he's a great guy. I really, and he's so kind of humble in terms of he never boasts about his achievements at all. Let's just finish maybe in honor of hope by talking about sustainable development goals, which are, as you say, pretty much a clear expression of what I think so many of us should care about in our own countries as well as abroad.

57:30I mean, the point about these goals is they're not just about what's happening in the poorest countries world. It's about what we should be aiming for in our own country. And I think it's about as good a list as you can get. And actually, it would be really interesting whether you could organize a government around the list. No poverty, zero hunger, good health and well-being, quality education, gender equality, clean water and sanitation, affordable and clean energy, decent work and economic growth, industry innovation and infrastructure, reduced inequality, sustainable cities and communities, responsible consumption and production, climate action, life below water, life on land, peace, justice, and strong institutions, and partnership for the goals.

58:13It's a pretty good starter. I mean, there's a lot of things we could talk about. Maybe we should sometimes talk a little bit more. There are bits that are not there because we had to get the whole world to sign up for them. You notice there's a big commitment to liberal democracy there, and they're skating a little around some of the climate issues, talking about life on land, life on water, the environment. But otherwise, when we get to the basics of what politics is about, education, clean water, housing, poverty, it's pretty good, huh? Absolutely. And that's what I said at the start. I think there's still the best kind of overall plan, if you used it as the basis of a plan, to achieve the things that we talk about the whole time.

58:49And when they were put together, we were in a very different era. Would the world put those together today? Would Trump sign them off? Would Putin? Would Xi Jinping? Yeah, no, absolutely not. So we've got to fight for them. And that's why I think this Be Hope campaign is good. And, you know, we love to plug our own podcast, but look out for lots and lots of podcasts that are doing this in different parts of the world this week. Great. Well, thank you, Alistair. And I hope you get to watch a bit of the game. As it happens, I can't because I've got to go and do something else. But I see plenty of support.

59:18Don't worry about my sports consumption. I'll be doing more tomorrow. Very good. All right. See you soon. Have a good night. Bye bye. Take care. Bye.