162. Gareth Southgate: Patriotism, Leadership, and How To Inspire Young Men

30:07Not every game went to penalty shootouts like it does now, or not as many. So the processes weren't the same. I'd actually had a brilliant tournament. It was my first tournament. I'd played at a really high level, but ultimately I failed to execute a skill under pressure that I wasn't prepared for, and that had knocked us out of the tournament. Who was good at dealing with you then? Well, Stuart Pearce was incredibly helpful. I mean, he'd lived that moment himself. He's an incredible character anyway. You know, he's selfless. He'll put himself forward. You know, we didn't know each other before we were with England.

30:43We were at two different clubs, we actually you know a lot of difference between us but we found a lot of connection and he's a huge patriot you know that night after the game at Wembley I had dinner with him and he talked about what he'd lived through and he predicted a lot of the things that were going to happen but he said you'll come through you will be a stronger person for this and I hope that you know my story of the last 10 years has shown young people that you know resilience is so important and I think we have to really focus on that with young people today. For lots of different reasons, they don't seem as resilient and it's such an important factor in life.

31:22Were there ever moments where you thought, actually, I'm just going to give up and hide my head and I can never appear in public again, this is the end of everything? I think in football, because you face regular disappointments, you do become a bit more hardened. But I spent definitely the next six months of my England career worrying about making another mistake, which is the worst mindset to go into a performance in. If you're worried about what might go wrong, you're never going to perform at your best. And I ended up being dropped by England, which for me was then rock bottom, if you like.

31:54I was able to contextualize, it's probably the worst thing professionally that will ever happen to me. And I've come through it. So now actually that gives me freedom to go and attack the rest of my life, if you like, in football. and that was the mindset I tried to instill in the team when I took over. We had this disconnect with the public. We hadn't won a knockout game in 10 years. They were being criticised for what had happened in my generation and they weren't responsible for what happened when I played. So actually, if you followed the language around our team, we talked about creating our own history a lot and that was to free up the current players from what had gone wrong in the past than to say, look, this is your moment in time.

32:39Write your own stories. Write your own history. Okay, Alastair, Gareth, quick break, and then back for more.

32:47If we knew more about our sleep, what would we do differently? Would we go to bed at a consistent time or take steps to reduce interruptions to our sleep? With the all-new Sleep Score, Apple Watch measures your bedtime consistency, interruptions, and sleep duration. Then, every morning it combines these factors into an easy-to-understand score from 1 to 100. So you'll know how to take the quality of your sleep from good to excellent. Introducing the new sleep score on Apple Watch, iPhone 11 or later required. Hello, friends. Guess who? That's right. It is I, the replacer. Once again, I've been called on so you can play the new Call of Duty Black of 7 with three expansive modes, 18 multiplayer maps and the tastiest zombie gameplay you've ever freaking seen.

33:40Call of Duty Black Ops 7. Available now. Rated M for Mature.

33:49This episode is brought to you by Netflix. From the creator of Homeland, Claire Danes and Matthew Rhys star in the new Netflix series The Beast and Me. As ruthless rivals whose shared darkness will set them on a collision course with fatal consequences. The Beast in Me is a riveting psychological cat and mouse story about guilt, justice and doubt. You will not want to miss this. The Beast in Me is now playing only on Netflix. This episode is brought to you by Revolut Business, the all-in-one business account to manage your finances. Our world runs on exchange, trade, tax, tariffs, the quiet machinery that keeps everything moving.

34:28And everything is moving faster now. Ideas, goods, people crossing continents in seconds, but money still takes the scenic route, tripping over red tape and hidden fees. And that's where Revolut Business comes in. Over 30 currencies sent to more than 150 countries at the same interbank rates that banks use during market hours within plan allowance. No mystery markups. You can hold, exchange and pay from one place. Local account details means clients in New York, Sydney or Dublin get paid fast without the waiting or the worry. Business across borders done the way that politics so rarely is efficiently.

35:07Open a Revolut business account today by scanning the QR code on screen or via the link in description. And add money by the 31st of December 2025 to get a£200 welcome bonus or the equivalent in your local currency. Feature availability varies by plan. Offer available for new business customers in the UK, US, Australia, and Ireland. Fees and terms and conditions apply. So your penalty in 1996 and the subsequent missed penalties by three of the England players that play for you essentially becomes the arc of James Graham's play, Dear England. And that title comes from a letter that you wrote, as it were, to the country.

35:50Now, writing a letter to the country is a conscious act of leadership. So I'd just be interested in what process was going through your mind that you thought that was the right thing to do, a good thing to do, and I guess why you did it. I think we have to take a little step back to what happened to us as a team. So there was a moment we played in Montenegro, and right at the end of the game, Danny Rose, one of our players, made a ridiculous tackle. We were winning 5-0. He got a yellow card and I'd been really strong with the team about the need for discipline because we've gone out of World Cups because of red cards.

36:26So I hammered him in the dressing room afterwards. Which you didn't often do. No, but you do flex your style at times. When I left the dressing room, I'd found out that during the game, Danny and Raheem Sterling had been racially abused. It was one of those stadiums where there were sections on the far side. you couldn't hear from opposite touchline. But some of the television audio mics had picked things up. What bothered me was that we had a player who didn't want to come back and explain what had happened. As I talked to him afterwards, he must have experienced this his whole life. Danny is a young black player growing up in Yorkshire.

37:08Goodness knows what he faced on the pitches on a Sunday morning going through his journey. And he felt so let down by the system and couldn't even come to his manager and say, but look, this was going on. That had a huge impact on me. We then lived through the George Floyd episode and staff at the FA talking about how disaffected they felt about lack of representation in the hierarchy, in the board. We had to prepare for a game in Bulgaria where we knew there was likely to be racism on the pitch. and we had really open conversations as a team about how we were going to deal with that which I felt was hugely powerful for us because I think our black players felt supported they felt that this issue was being recognized and slowly we were involved in things that we hadn't set out to do but in trying to keep a unity as a team I think it had a big impact on broader communities you know people from minority communities have come to me and said how important they felt those messages and those stances we took were and that was never to an attempt to be political or divisive and naturally you support unity and you disaffect some communities at the same time so I then lost support from certain sections of our communities the start point was how do we protect our players?

38:35How do we show them that togetherness matters, that we're not prepared to accept racism? Did you say, because Rory mentioned Wenger, I remember I was talking to Arsene Wenger and he said that when he's doing an interview, his primary audience is always his players. So was Dear England as much about a message to your players as it was to the country? Definitely. I mean, it emanated from an interview I gave to the Players' Tribune website. And the guy that did the interview came back and said, look, I think this would be really powerful if you put it into a letter. You know, as with all these things, it's not just me that should take credit for that.

39:11There's people who have ideas. And I wanted to talk about my patriotism, but also recognize that actually our country is changing. The dynamics of our country are changing. But for a lot of our players, they're incredibly proud to play for England. Well, you had Mauro Otoji on. he was incredibly proud of his Nigerian roots and both things are possible you know Bukayo Saka would be like that Mark Goy would be like that with his roots and that is our modern country you know you can have both those positions it doesn't have to be one or the other but do you think there's been a bit of a backlash again so like let's talk about flags I mean I remember back in 1966 insofar as flags were a thing even with England it tended to be the union of flag and then the BMP kind of got hold of the flag and and then now the the flag ofst george has become very much you know identified with football um and you've had this you know if you've been to bernie recently there are union flags and flags ofst george on virtually every lamppost it was the same in rotherham doncaster was there recently and i just wonder whether you worry about the way the flag right now is being is being used to divide as opposed to do what you were trying to do which to bring people together?

40:28Well, my view is the flag should unify people. So its meaning will be personal to everybody. I'm amazed we don't celebrate St. George's Day more. We celebrate St. Patrick's Day. We don't celebrate St. George's Day. I'm a proud Englishman. Why don't we do that, actually? You know, the flag to me means an awful lot. There's a broader argument going on that, you know, We'll never land on agreement with various stances on what that should be. But what I saw when we played was the unity that the team, the beauty about England is a big Premier League game has an audience of 4 million in our country.

41:09Our big nights are 30 million. Nan, granddad, you can remember where you were on those nights and it brings communities together. So I have seen the power that can come. And we've got to try and change the narrative in our country. One of the things that's so disturbing, I guess, is recent polling suggests that the British right is more anti-emigrant than MAGA, than the Trump supporters. The polling I was just looking at, the FT just did. Something like 80 % of the British right think that we risk losing our national identity if we're too open from people from all over the world. 70 % say it's bad for society if white people decline as a share of the population.

41:50That's 70 % compared to only 40 % of MAGA supporters, Trump supporters, think that. And of course, Tommy Robinson really begins in football. So there's a really interesting question. Why, despite all that you're saying about how the Premier League is so diverse, the England team is so diverse, a lot of people who are hardcore football supporters and love it are increasingly anti-diversity? I mean, what's this dynamic about? Yeah, it's a question I'm probably not qualified to fully understand. But what I would say about football and football supporters for decades, they are a representation of broader community.

42:29So although people would say, oh, it's football fans, I don't think that's actually correct. I think that is where certain communities are. Look, we're in difficult economic times. So to go back to Obama a couple of weeks ago, he talked brilliantly about that disunity, that discord, those extreme views are always slightly under the surface. And there are certain moments when there's economic struggle or whatever that might be, where these things come to the fore and bubble up. And that's clearly where we're at. There's disaffection. There's a reason why people are unhappy. And we have to acknowledge that.

43:07We can't be dismissive of opportunities and hope for young people. All nations are going to be more transient. And immigration for every country in the world You'll have a clear review on this. But again, because I listen to you guys a lot, you talked about the Czech Republic and the number of Ukrainian. What were they going to do? Close the doors to those hundreds of thousands of people coming in. So it's incredibly complicated. There is no simple solution to any of that. And they're the moments where I look at Prime Minister's role and think, goodness me, good luck with all of that, because it was hard enough just to get a left back and a right back together.

43:46You said in the book that there was a point where your daughter gave you the book, Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race, by Renny Edo Lodge. And you said, I read it and it made a big impact on you. I was interested in that. Was that a point at which were some of the black players getting worried about the way that that debate was taking over the debate within the team? Was that what was happening then? No, no. That was actually, we had a town hall with FA staff. So not just people that work with the England team, but broader FA. And this was the moment when they talked about the lack of representation in leading positions.

44:28And they talked a lot about white privilege. Initially, I was a bit offended because I thought, as you do as a naive white bloke, I've worked bloody hard to get where I have. Do you realise how hard that's been? And then slowly, as I talked to my daughter, read the book, you suddenly realized, hmm, these moments where I just am able to walk down the street and not be conscious of my color. There are other levels of things here that I haven't really had to consider. So what I said about Danny Rose growing up playing in Yorkshire, you know, those confrontational moments that people from minority communities face all the time that I never have to think about at all.

45:07So it was more that side of things that it made me, you know, it did lead me towards some of the other standpoints we took for broader unity, I suppose. How political are you? Well, it fascinates me. Like I'm fascinated by the leadership aspect of it because clearly you're never going to vote anything other than Labour. Rory's never going to be anything other than the other side. But there are people who are kind of waiting to see, right, who's going to really impress us over the next period of time? who do we want to lead us through the majority of the country a little bit like you like to think you know about football but you don't really know any of the detail i'm afraid that to him that's where i am on politics i've got short diet is tie here how can you even say that no i get that i don't know anywhere near enough about all the policies and the impact of it but you're going into a political space with your life now i don't mean part of it but you're talking about role modeling, you're talking about the challenges facing young men, you're addressing issues like pornography and mentoring and all this stuff you've been talking about.

46:13Your Dimbleby lecture really made an impact. I mean, the truth is, if you wanted to go into politics, there's a wide door open, whether that's in the commons or the laws. Good grief. Don't you think I've had enough misery? Well, I don't know. I'm just asking. I'm just asking whether that would ever cross your mind no and i can see how they would gain some support for certain views but i you said you wanted to make a difference you could also make i do yeah i do want to make a difference but i think i've met you know there were five prime ministers in my time as england manager i've also met tony and john major and david cameron so you know i'm a have an awareness of that world oh so we worked very closely with sir michael barber he was on an advisory panel for us his insight into how difficult it is to get things done, how it's very often the focus is on getting elected.

47:04But then when you're in power, it's so hard to, you know, how are you going to actually implement things? And I could relate to all of that. So I think it would be a very naive person at 55 to think he could turn his hands to politics and have any impact. But I do want to help my country to be better. And I do, I hate the narrative when I turn the television on every morning our country's gone to the dogs we should all be moving out you know we've got to give young people hope and we've got so much talent and we're still a place where people because of our legal system want to build businesses it's such an attractive place to come still you know surely we've got to get that message out rather than all wear ourselves down with the other the other message i want to finish with the question of um how people move on from early success or how people think about retirement.

47:54I mean, you're right at the most extreme example of this. You've been in an industry where people are godlike heroes in their 20s, and then by their late 30s, have lost the entire central meaning, purpose, glory of their lives. But I guess every human being as they age goes through some version of this as they move towards retirement earlier or later. How do you find when you're talking to footballers about what it means to have purpose and meaning in your life and how you make the transition from a job that is everything to you, that gave you so much excitement, stimulation, reward, joy, fame, into a stage where all that's gone and how do you keep living?

48:38I mean, we discussed earlier this transition for athletes, that their whole identity is around being an athlete of some sort. And then they struggle for routine they struggle for connection with people very often marriages split why do they struggle with connection with people well because for their whole lives every hour of their day has been basically mapped out for them and they've been socially in a dressing room they've been part of something part of a clear community and then you're on your own you know i i had a brief period because i went straight from playing to managing overnight so i didn't have to have that reflection.

49:16But when I was sacked at Middlesbrough, it's the first time in my life I'd been unemployed. First time in my life I'd been at home with the family there, but actually what's dad doing? You know, he's in the way, frankly. I'm the only bloke in the country that gets encouraged to go and play golf now. How do I find purpose in my life? I'd always been working towards something. And that's now at this moment of my life, that's the challenge I've found. Okay, I've had a very high profile role and because it was for my country it had real purpose how do I replace that and that is going to be very hard if I'm just looking in football because you know club situations it all feels very small after the role I've had so I found it fascinating talking to those ex-prime ministers what did you do next you had the biggest job how do you plan the next stage of your life.

50:08I think I can make a difference because the role I had gives me a profile that might be able to connect people around this area of working with young people and mentoring and maybe providing youth spaces for kids to go to after school. So I feel like this is a point in my life to take a different direction and give something back in a different way. And I don't think that has to be politicized. I think that should be apolitical. And I did go and see Keir about this after Dimbleby. And what impressed me was that he saw that the same way. This has got to stand a cross party. It's not something that's just a vote winner for him.

50:49It's something that he felt, okay, how do we affect this? And kind of come back when you've come up with some ideas. So doing a lot of research into what those ideas should be. My final question, did you enjoy the process of writing a book, which as I say is a very different sort of book. Most ex-footballers don't write this sort of book. And I just wonder what you learned about yourself in that. Because, you know, Rory and I both have written quite a lot of books and it's always quite a lonely process and you've got to work out about what you leave out as well as what you put in. Might there be more in the same vein?

51:24I'm not sure because I think with this one, I was very clear having worked closely with a lot of business leaders, coaches in other sports that a lot of the leadership aspects cross all walks of life, schools, businesses. The technical details are different, but generally you're building teams, you're managing people, you're building culture, you're performing under pressure. everywhere I travel people are facing those difficulties leadership in the modern world with social media with media I don't think it's ever been more difficult because there's an instant reaction to everything 24 hours a day so hard for people in those high profile leadership positions you know the more we share about those things and people say yeah I'm not the only one feeling that way because very often I'd travel and meet other coaches sports leaders Toto Wolf Dave Brelsford, all these people.

52:22Right, God, they are actually facing the same problems I am. That in itself was reassuring. Everybody had insecurities, really, deep down. Nobody really wanted to admit to them. And I'm not afraid to throw that out there because I think it will help other people, young leaders who think, I'm not ready. Can I really do it? God, I never thought I'd be England manager. If I can be England manager, anybody can go and do anything. Les Truss can be prime minister, Gareth. He can be prime minister as well. My final, final question. Do you not think Jack Court was worth more than one cap? Would you mind explaining to the listeners who the hell this is?

52:57That's a great point, Rory. So Jack Court was a very good midfield player for Burnley. Now a coach. Now a coach. And Burnley's last midfield player to play for England would have been, I don't know, 1960s or something like that. Interestingly, Jack Court's dad used to scout for us with the under-21s. Alan Court. Alan used to play for Wimbledon and Sheffield United. And when he was picked, he told Jack, enjoy this because this will be your first and your last. Jack shared that with me when he came in. That's nice. Because we did have some players missing at that time. So, yeah. Can we sort of take this thought and sort of wrap it up for us?

53:38Because what you just got there from Alistair presumably was your entire life as England manager, which is amateurs from the side of the pitch telling you how to do your job. How did you manage when you're reading the newspapers, getting texts from Alistair, etc? It was polite. Keep a sense of what you know, what they know. And was there ever a time when you got a text or WhatsApp and read an article where actually it kind of hit you and you thought, actually, maybe they're right. Maybe I have got all this wrong. Definitely. I mean, at the start, I definitely read more at the beginning. and then I realized I needed to cut myself off from that because the danger is you get swayed by an opinion and actually you know is there real knowledge behind that opinion is there real understanding of all of the issues that are in front of us so the longer I was in the role there were moments where I did read more generally because I needed to be across across some of those ideas, but definitely within tournaments, within camps, I removed myself from reading newspapers.

54:41Definitely social media was a no-go because I needed to protect my own well-being, really. I've seen or felt my mood change by reading something about me. And I think that's the case for young people. That's one of the dangers of social media. Would you support, you know, we've talked a lot about the ban in Australia of access of teenagers social media would you support that here i think it's a little bit more complex than that i mean jonathan hate talks brilliantly about this you know i've just ludicrously joined instagram so i'm not i'm not on the algorithm yet so i'm not being thrown everywhere yeah but you're flogging a book but there's well i'm flogging a book and but there's i think there's going to be a chance to get messages out there in this space for example but there's also this aspect of what is a normal childhood now you know in our day it was playing outdoors it was failing it was falling off bikes so it was resilience building um and socialization and now you know i think we've really got to think about are we providing those spaces because why are kids going to it's not phone is it it's a computer in your hand why are they going to social media where they're now finding poor role models it's because there is the alternatives aren't as attractive for them less after school sport less youth clubs less access to youth workers mentors so it's not just one fix we can say okay nothing below the age of and i think parents will start to do that because i think we're seeing a generation now the first generation that's been through this social media mobile phone experience and i think parents have felt uncomfortable about it for a long time and And now they're starting to say, but they don't want to be the first to stop their kid at school.

56:27It's creating tension for parents. But I think they will change that. And I think young people, actually, when you talk to them, they're relieved. If they don't need to be on social media, they can leave their phone for days or so. But we have got to provide those alternatives. We have got to get people back into offices socializing. Three-day week, no good. there's seven days in a week if we're only working with three that balance isn't right young people learn by interacting in offices you build teams by interacting and if we're missing all of that socialization that that won't be good for the development of people well thank you for your time good luck with the book thank you no that was great thanks very much for having me i really appreciate it thank you well alice i thought that was amazing uh um you can confirm the production team confirmed that is the first time I've ever asked from a mobile number for any of our leading guests he's the only one that I've actually wanted to meet up with again I didn't realise that personally he describes himself as an introvert you can see it thank you for insulting every one of our previous guests by saying that you weren't you weren't interested in talking to them anymore no he's a lovely guy he's a lovely guy I thought he was quite nervous in a weird sort of way at the start I thought he warmed into it presumably that must have been a challenge also for him that I hadn't thought about which is Terry Venables or Kevin Keegan I guess were quite kind of massive extrovert big characters in quite a macho job and here was somebody taking over the biggest job in English football who didn't really have that personality type was that something that people noticed how he became manager is really interesting because he was actually asked to apply when Roy Hodgson stepped down and he said no he wasn't ready and sam allardyce took over and then famously and rather unfortunately was done over by the daily telegraph and he stepped down relatively soon into the job and gareth decided to go for it i think he's a really interesting character in lots of ways i think what he might have been nervous about was actually the concept of politics he's obviously very interested in politics he's very political he's very diplomatic and yeah and all that stuff but didn't he he was so careful not to get into anything that could be deemed to him being political.

58:43Is he in trouble in the culture wars? Because he's pretty progressive, isn't he? I mean, he really wants to talk about white privilege and stuff like that. So is there a group of kind of right-wing football fans out in the Tommy Robinson right who are angry with him for his political views? I mean, I think he got a little bit of the sort of woke backlash, but I don't think so. I think if you look at that broken nose, you realise you're talking to somebody who's been around a bit and knows how to look after himself. And he was right, actually. I got it wrong about the Roy Keane thing. He did this really, really dirty tackle on Roy Keane, who then stamped on him.

59:20He was also, the other thing I'd forgotten, is he was in the game. You must remember this game when Eric Cantona did a Kung Fu attack with a crystal ball. Yeah, I remember that. Gareth scored in that game. I was checking that last night. No, I think he's a lovely character, and I'm glad that he's going into this space, because as you know, I'm on this thing called the Lost Boys Task Force, and I think this thing about young men. is a real sort of challenge. And he's definitely in that space. And in a way, he's seen the young men thing from every level, the fans. And then these young players that aged 18, 19, early 20s are multimillionaires, either self-appointed or societally appointed role models and often struggle.

59:59And when he set out the kind of values that he thinks leaders need, he talked about integrity, courage, empathy, resilience, and accountability. It's not a bad little quintet. It's an amazing quintet. He's also got a lot of humility and self-reflection. I mean, one of the things that makes it, I think, a much more interesting book than normal books on leadership is the number of times he says, I thought that at the time, you know, about the term of Goran Erikson, later I realized I was wrong. I've changed my mind on that, changed my mind about the kind of person he was. I thought that was beautiful because, you know, we live in an age of politics where that kind of leadership obviously isn't the Trump style.

1:00:36It isn't the Bolsonaro style. It's not the Mille style. It would be fascinating if you'd managed to pull off your trick of getting him to go into politics. But of course, I think he's actually too wise, too humble and too self-knowing to fall into the trap of being a politician. No, I think also he's probably seen enough of it to know that it's, you know, being the England manager is a hard, high profile job. I think it was Glenn Hottle who said it's the second worst job in the country. So I think he knows it wouldn't be, probably wouldn't be a pleasant experience for him. But listen, he's got, He's definitely got political skills, no doubt about that.

1:01:04Thank you for that, Alastair. And I obviously wanted to talk much more about formations and 441 and stuff. And you were pleased to know Jack Cork has agreed to come on next week. Oh, that's great. I've really been looking forward to hearing about Jack Cork. Because, you know, he's somebody I've studied very... And his dad. Could we get him on with his dad? With his dad, we'll let him. And his mum. I know his mum as well. He's lovely too. Yeah, yeah. And they're quite interesting politics. Very good. Good. Looking forward to it. Bye-bye. Bye.

1:01:35This episode is brought to you by Revolut Business, the all-in-one business account to manage your finances. Our world runs on exchange, trade, tax, tariffs, the quiet machinery that keeps everything moving. And everything is moving faster now. Ideas, goods, people, crossing continents in seconds. But money still takes the scenic route, tripping over red tape and hidden fees. And that's where Revolut Business comes in. Over 30 currencies sent to more than 150 countries at the same interbank rates that banks use during market hours within plan allowance. No mystery markups. You can hold, exchange and pay from one place.

1:02:14Local account details means clients in New York, Sydney or Dublin get paid fast without the waiting or the worry. Business across borders done the way that politics so rarely is efficiently. me. Open a Revolut business account today via Revolut.com slash en dash US slash RB slash the rest is politics and add money by the 31st of December 2025 to get a£200 welcome bonus or the equivalent in your local currency. Feature availability varies by plan. Offer available for new business customers in the UK, US, Australia and Ireland. Fees and terms and conditions apply. And Doug. Here we have the Lemu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.

1:03:09Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Lemu? Is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need at LibertyMutual.com. Liberty, Liberty, Liberty, Liberty. Savings vary. Underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates excludes Massachusetts. This is an Etsy holiday ad, but you won't hear any sleigh bells or classic carols. Instead, you'll hear something original. The sound of an Etsy holiday, which sounds like this. Now that's special! Want to hear it again? Get original and affordable gifts from small shops on Etsy.

1:03:46For gifts that say, I get you, shop Etsy. Tap the banner to shop now.