174. Taking On Europe's Last Dictator: The Fight Against Lukashenko and Putin

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1:11Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:Welcome to The Rest is Politics Leading with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alistair Campbell. And we are with the elected leader of Belarus. But somebody who is not living in Belarus, who's living mainly in Latvia, leading a government in exile. And this is Svetlana, I'm going to really struggle with this name, Tsikanovskaia. She is the wife of the man who tried to run against Lukashenko, was stopped from running, and she stepped in. And we're delighted to have her here. This is part of this two-part series that we've done on Putin's Russia, through the eyes of Bill Browder, and now president, president-elect, leader of government in exile.

1:49Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:Svetlana, welcome. Just imagine that you're talking to somebody who doesn't know much about Belarus, doesn't know much about you. Just tell us your story, how you became the figure that you are now, the opposition leader in Belarus. Actually, the president-elect in Belarus, but now leading the opposition.

2:07Alastair Campbell:Look, it's a really difficult task. But what I would say first is that Belarus is the country where dictator rules for more than 30 years. Dictator in our country is the most pro-Russian person in Belarus. and he is dragging our country closer to Russia all these years. So in 2020, we had huge uprising against dictator. I was the person who was opposing dictator Lukashenko. I won elections, but Lukashenko refused to step down, seized power and forced me personally and hundreds of thousands of other people leave the country. In Belarus now, we have humanitarian and political disaster. Moreover, Lukashenko dragged our country into the war against Ukraine became accomplices in this war and continue to assist.

2:54Alastair Campbell:And for five years already, our people are not giving up in resisting Lukashenko, resisting subjugation from Russia, and we want European future for Belarus. It's very shortly.

3:05Rory Stewart:And so tell us a little bit about Lukashenko and the nature of his rule.

3:08Alastair Campbell:In 1991, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, our country really had wonderful perspectives for a better future, for economic development, for democracy and prosperity. But we chose the wrong person. And we chose populist who promised a better life, fight with corruption, and he built the most corrupted system in Belarus. He assists power, he built his own system of power based on fear and personal military apparatus. And he's very selfish. He's concentrated on his power. He's proud to be the last dictator of Europe. And for sure, he doesn't respect Belarusian national identity. He always wanted us to be part of Russia.

4:01Alastair Campbell:And he hates all the European values.

4:04Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:In your story, you got to this position because your husband was going to be the candidate and Lukashenko made that impossible and you essentially stood in his place. So you were something of a reluctant campaigner. Did he agree for you to be a candidate, Lukashenko this is, allow you to go ahead because he assumed that because you were a woman you wouldn't be able to actually attract any attention, have ideas, have policies and be able to campaign against him as a kind of big macho authoritarian leader? Was that his thinking?

4:35Alastair Campbell:Yeah, absolutely. Yes. I think that he really miscalculated because he was so sure that he knew that Belarusians are against him, but he was so sure that nobody ever would vote for a woman housewife with no political expertise. So that's why it was like he was mocking me because our constitution is not for women, but he lost connection with people. He lost moods in our society. And it was such a trauma for him that we really managed to hold successful campaign. And people voted for me. We have proofs for this for the first time. We managed thanks to technologists, proof that Lukashenko lost. And still five years, you know, passed and he's still very much traumatized by this fact.

5:18Rory Stewart:What was it like for you as somebody who was not a professional politician to suddenly have to become a presidential candidate? What was it like emotionally, intellectually to make that journey?

5:28Alastair Campbell:I don't remember even a day when I didn't feel fear for everything. For my husband who was already in jail, for my children that might be put in orphanage in case I'm in jail, for example. Or I was scared by the crowd of people. How can I give public speeches? You know, everything was so scary. But I knew that you have to overstep all your fears because this is what you have to do. You know, people rely on you. People were following me. And of course, step by step, when I turned out to be in exile and started my international campaign, I also was scared by presidents, prime ministers, how is it to meet a leader of the country?

6:13Alastair Campbell:But of course, in the democratic world, the president is a little bit different than a leader of the autocratic regime, because they consider themselves half gods, that you cannot just talk to him. But in democratic countries, any politician is the person who is serving the people, first of all. And I think that I'm lucky enough because I had all those highly respected people, presidents, ministers of foreign affairs, you know, as my teachers. I was learning from scratch, but I managed, this was my university.

6:46Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:And do you feel that you've had the support that you think you need for the opposition in Belarus from the rest of Europe, for example? Do you feel you've had the international support? And do you feel you get that now? You're now essentially living in exile mainly in Lithuania? Yes. And you're running this kind of effectively an opposition or a government in exile, whatever you want to call it. Do you feel you get the recognition and the support from the rest of the world that you think you need to actually push against Lukashenko?

7:14Alastair Campbell:Of course, much more can be done. Every country that needs them might say so, but I'm really proud what we managed to achieve for these five years as a democratic movement. We have no state behind us. We're just movement. We managed to build alternative institutions of power in exile. We managed to keep unity. We managed to find resources for our alternative media, for our human rights defenders. We managed to build a network of our democratic allies who are supporting us everywhere. We formalized relationship, we are not country, democratic movement, formalized relationship with European Union, European Parliament.

7:50Alastair Campbell:We have strategic dialogue with the USA, Canada, UK. So we have missions of democratic forces of Belarus in different countries. What is most important for me is that we rediscovered Belarus to the world. Because before it was gray zone, like a backyard of Russia. And now we discovered, look behind Belarus, Lukashenko, the rest of the nation. people who want different lives, you know. And that's why, of course, you know, much more can be done to put pressure on the regime, much more can be done to assist Belarusian movement, but we achieved it with very limited resources. So I'm really proud of Belarusians.

8:26Rory Stewart:So one of the policy questions is, is it possible to bring Lukashenko away from Russia, or is he always traveling towards Russia? Is there a policy approach which allows some new strategy?

8:39Alastair Campbell:Look, it's very naive to think that we can split these two people because they need each other. They serve each other. You know, Lukashenko is earning money on the war against Ukraine. Russia uses Belarus as a huge loophole. Belarus enterprises producing military stuff for Russian war machine. For example, almost all the missiles complexes have Belarusian chassis, you know, Belarusian banks helping to avoid sanctions. And, you know, globally, Lukashenko, as I said, is the most pro-Soviet or pro-Russian person in Belarus. He always wanted to erase everything Belarusian, you know, from our land.

9:17Alastair Campbell:And Putin actually wants to make from Ukraine what he has in Lukashenko's Belarus now. Loyal, obedient country that will serve to Russia's interests, not to national one.

9:30Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:How did you feel when you saw Lukashenko sitting at one of his grand tables, signing his entry into Donald Trump's Board of Peace?

9:39Alastair Campbell:Look, his place is in the hug, not in any unities or alliances. And of course, for us, it's painful that Lukashenko, who is torturing people, who unleashed the most brutal repression our countries in four years, who wants to ruin our country, you know, that he's becoming part of any new alliances. Of course, you know, the perspective of these alliances is still unclear, but nevertheless, you know, Lukashenko percepts it as recognition and he just wants to be visible, you know, to show to principal democratic Europe that, you know, I'm an important person here.

10:24Rory Stewart:One route for Belarus, if you were to become president, is to become part of the European Union. But the problem, of course, is the European Union is not really expanding. If you are Bosnia, if you are Serbia, if you're Kosovo, if you're Moldova, you're worried about what it means to join the European Union. Do you have a vision of Belarus going into the European Union?

10:43Alastair Campbell:Look, we have to look into history. Our historic past was in the European family of countries. We're only about 200 years under influence of Russia, so we just want to return to our roots. And of course, I understand there are issues in the European Union, but for the first time, for 30 years of independence of Belarus, Europe started to say, Belarusians, you're part of our family, you are welcomed, and Belarusians feel perspectives. Because before in Belarus, nobody talked about entrance into the European alliance, because nobody proposed us this and we didn't believe that it's possible. Now this possibility is clear and Europeans doors are open for us, but we have to be prepared.

11:28Alastair Campbell:Of course, there should be different transformation of our country, reform so on and so forth, and we are preparing for this now. I think that Europe will only win from from Belarus if it's part of this economic military and value alliance.

11:47Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:We've just been talking to Bill Browder, and he was saying that essentially he thinks that Putin has to stay in power because the people actually would turn against him and he has to be there forever. Is Lukashenko in that same mindset, that he in his mind has to stay in power forever? and do you actually retain any hope that one day you or your husband might actually end up as

12:10Alastair Campbell:president of belarus do you still retain that hope i absolutely see belarus as free independent country i don't know how long it will take but what happened in 2020 you know our nation our people actually rediscovered themselves you know because never before we felt such unity we felt proud that we are Belarusians. Because, you know, before, where was Belarus? Nobody knew. Who are Belarusians? Oh, it's like, you know, forgotten Russians or whatever. But, you know, when you feel dignity for a nation, for your country, you know, for your future, it's very clear that people are not ready to give up in this fight.

12:46Alastair Campbell:And it's, you know, not my task or intention to be president or my husband. Our task is to make Belarus democratic, to organize free and democratic elections where people for the first time can freely choose their leader. It's very evident perspective for Belarus. And moreover, I think that changes in Belarus can lay path to changes in Russia, not vice versa.

13:10Rory Stewart:What are the lessons for how people should think about Ukraine and supporting Zelensky and dealing with Putin about Ukraine?

13:17Alastair Campbell:I think that Ukraine should win this war. We are not talking only about territories or about winning just one country. It must be the victory of all the democratic world. Because now the Russians are not fighting for the lands, for peace of land. They are fighting against values. And they are testing unity of Europe. They are testing transatlantic unity or how far they can go until there will be a clear and decisive answer from democratic world. If we lose Ukraine, it will not be the last country which Russia would like to invade. Baltic countries, you know, they were part of Soviet empire. You know, we just, let's recall that half of Germany somehow or someone was under Russian occupation.

14:04Alastair Campbell:So what, where are the ambitions of Russia and, you know, the problem of Russia that they don't know where their borders are.

14:11Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:Now, listen, it's been lovely to meet you. And I'm I'm sorry that we were a little bit late, so we don't have as much time as we'd have liked. But can I just take you a final question about Ireland? Because you grew up in an area that was affected by the Chernobyl disaster. And as part of the aftermath of that, children were taken to different parts of the world. And you ended up becoming a friend of Ireland through the Dean's family, I think they were called. Just tell us a little about that, because I'm currently trying to get an Irish passport post-Brexit. So I just want to be nice about Ireland everywhere I go.

14:44Alastair Campbell:Look, of course, Ireland will be in my heart for sure. Just imagine a child from post-Soviet Union country, you know, empty shops, gray days, though I had very, you know, happy family. But nevertheless, you know, this poverty was very clear. And you discover yourself in absolutely different worlds where people are smiling, where people are so happy, where shops are full of food. You know, in Ireland, first time I tasted ketchup or crisps, you know, it's absolutely different experience. You see huge shop malls and it's like huge shift in your understanding of the world because when you are blocked in your poverty, you don't think that there is life different from this.

15:27Alastair Campbell:And from that time, you think why we cannot live like the Irish? What's the difference? Actually, this Chernobyl program, I think, formed individual perception of many children that grew up in 2020. Italy, Germany, Austria, so many countries participated in this program. And we are so grateful for such solidarity of Ireland and other countries that you made much more than giving holiday for children of Chernobyl. You reopened another world for our countries.

16:04Rory Stewart:Well, thank you so much. We've been very, very honored to interview you. I'm sorry it wasn't longer. And very, very good luck with your campaigns. Thank you so much. Thank you.

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