180. The Only European Leader Defying Trump? (Pedro Sánchez)

30:10And I think that one of the biggest mistakes that Trump and current U.S. administration is making is to close borders. They are trying to identify migration, all migration, with a crime and all this violence. And it's the contrary. In the case of Spain, migration represents 10 % more or less of the total incomes of the social security system, but at the same time only represents 1 % of the total public spending. The challenge for governments, and in the case of Spain, you know, since we have a very decentralized system, is in the hands of the regions and the hands of municipalities. The challenge is how do we integrate this migration?

30:56And the problem that we face in Spain, and I think that across Europe, is that far right, they're just not sending the message that we are going to close borders, which is impossible, by the way. But at the same time, they are reducing dramatically budget related to integrated migration. Interestingly, a loss of the migration coming to Spain is coming from Latin America. And a lot of the migration coming to the United States is also coming from Latin America. But the way Trump is describing Latin American migrants sounds like a completely different group of people from the people you're describing.

31:33I mean, it's a similar population, but he says these people are crazy rapists, violent And when you speak with these Latinos in the United States, it's the contrary, you know? They feel proud to be in the United States. They feel proud also about how they contribute to the economic growth and prosperity in the United States. Not only from Latin America, we have also a very important diaspora of Morocco in Spain that they are contributing to the welfare of our society. And again, the challenge is how do we integrate this migration? How do you do that? We need to increase our budget when it comes to municipalities and regions.

32:14We need to also deploy social policies. So you want to spend more on welcoming immigrants to Spain? Well, actually, what we are now in the process is to recognize the rights and regulate the more or less 500 ,000 migrants that are already living in Spain. But, you know, for a country of close to 50 million people, you know, we're talking about perhaps four points, five points of the total migrants that we have in Spain. It's not a big issue. I think that we have, of course, you know, the capacity to absorb and to integrate these migrants. OK, President Sanchez, Rory, quick break and back for more.

33:01To some, he is the revolutionary hero who restored China to its rightful place on the global stage. To others, he's a brutal despot, accused of presiding over more civilian deaths than either Stalin or Hitler. Mao Zedong has one of the most recognisable faces in the world, yet he started life as a rural boy in a muddy provincial village. A rebel son who hated his father survived a 6 ,000-mile walk across China and rose to become a figure of titanic proportions. From Empire, a goal-hanger world history show, I'm Anita Arnon. And I'm William Durampo. In this six-part series, we're joined by world-renowned expert Rana Mitter to explore the life of the father of communist China, Mao Zedong.

33:49We'll track his rise from a bookstore owner to a guerrilla commander and we'll witness his ruthless elimination to secure total power. We'll explore the greatest famine in human history, a catastrophe where Mao himself predicted that half of China may well have to die. And we'll descend into the dark experiment of the Cultural Revolution, a time when ancient temples were burnt, children denounced their parents and a nation worshipped a mango as a sacred relic. And we'll play a clip from the series at the end of this episode for you to listen to.

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35:23can i ask you about your domestic political situation because it's it is fascinating you've been probably for eight years you've had three budgets yeah you've had to rely quite a lot on the kind of european funds to keep some projects going you've managed to do a lot of that but looking from the outside it's a very very weird kind of coalition situation well Well, it's the coalition that the Spaniards wanted. How do you hold it together? Well, I think that with a lot of capacity of negotiation, and I think that the Spanish way of doing things works. Define the Spanish way of doing things. Well, in 2025, we created more jobs than, for instance, the US economy.

36:06The economic growth in Spain represents 40 % of the total economic growth of the eurozone. I do believe that politics means just do it. You know, you have to deliver. on social policies, on economic transformation, and so on and so forth. And we have done so on the digital side, on the green transition. But when you're sitting with your coalition colleagues, you've got quite a wide spectrum. You've got a right-wing Catalonian over here. You've got a kind of hard left guy over here. You've got somebody very much in your image there. Well, at the end of the day, there's a common understanding. And I can tell you that being a minority coalition government has also made me better.

36:46as prime minister, because that not only because of my conviction, but also obligation to talk a lot with the rest of the parliamentary groups. Well, perhaps for a year, but I can tell you that, you know, we've been able to pass very important laws such as, you know, labor market reform, pension system reform with social peace. And by the way, it is true indeed that back in 2017, the year before I took over, Spain suffered the worst territorial and constitutional crisis in Catalonia. And nowadays in Catalonia, we have a socialist president. So people in Catalonia recognize the effort that we have done over the last seven years in order to normalize the situation in Catalonia.

37:40And this is also a very important goal for this term, to 100 % normalize the political and social situation in Catalonia. What does that mean, 100 % normalize? So, to materialize the amnesty law, to overcome all this terrible mess that previous administration left me when I took over back in 2018. And I think that we are in the process, but of course it has obliged me to take very difficult decisions that in the beginning Spaniards were more reluctant, but nowadays they realize it was worth for the coexistence of Spanish territories and of course to strengthen democracy in Spain. Do you think Catalonia will be independent in your lifetime?

38:27No, I think that Catalonia, they just want to be respected, its identity, to be recognized as well as the Basque country. And I think that the diversity, territorial diversity within Spain is not a problem, it's an asset for the good of Spain and for the good of our prosperity. This is why I think that now if you take the polls in Catalonia and in the Basque Country and other territories that they have this very strong identity, they recognize how well and how good this government works for their interests. And I think this is very important without breaking, of course, equal opportunities within territories and within citizens.

39:12There's a sense in which we all feel like we're becoming Spain in 2017, that you're somehow ahead of us. I mean, so if you look at Britain, like Spain, we had basically a two-party system. And then suddenly we end up with our own far-left, our Podemos is basically the Green Party, which has now just won a by-election very radical. Then we have Farage on the right, which feels a bit like Vox. And we have a center-left prime minister who is stuck in a similar situation to you, but is taking a completely different approach, right? He had been told by his previous chief of staff he needed to sound very tough on immigration.

39:54He needed to get the voters back from the far right. What's the lesson? I mean, if we're all becoming Spain in 2017. What's the lesson for Keir Starmer and the Labour government on how you navigate this new world of five parties and far left and far right and immigration? And with the independence debate that's going on. From Spain, what we think is that we are Europeanizing Spanish politics because this is the first time ever since we have democracy, 45 years ago, that we have a coalition government at the central level. Of course, we have at regional level and municipalities, but not at a central level.

40:30So we are, you know, in the process of Europeanized Spanish politics. And when it comes to the UK, I think that the framework perhaps is the problem. The framework is how do you navigate in this world without being part of a bigger political project? It doesn't matter if you are central left or central right prime minister. At the end of the day, the framework where you operate and you do politics is very tiny, very difficult to operate because there's, of course, a high public deficit, high public debt, low economic growth, of course, more defense obligations and security obligations, the debate of migration.

41:18I think that the UK needs to, with all due respect, the UK needs also to reflect on the decision taken with the Brexit. We're now in a position, as it happens, I don't think Nigel Farage will become Prime Minister, but it's not impossible. So there's one of the two big drivers of the campaign to get Britain out of the European Union. And even as though you said earlier, a lot of Brits think it's been a complete catastrophe. How is it that one of the chief architects of it is now being talked of as a future Prime Minister? So I think what Rory is saying is you seem to be suggesting that Britain needs to be far more confident about embracing its obvious economic and political future.

42:06Indeed. Yeah. I think that is a big question mark that British should answer. We need to keep that alliance. Brexit was a terrible loss not only for British but also for the European Union. We have also lost one of our major, let's say, political actors when it comes to international politics and welfare of the European Union as a whole. And middle answers are not the correct one. You need bold primary colors. Exactly. I think it's important to open that debate. But once again, of course, it will polarize citizens in Britain. And this is a very difficult debate to face. But again, it's a question of framework.

42:58You know, how Britain could win more sovereignty? And in my opinion, you don't win more sovereignty when you are out of a bigger political project. In our case, of course, the European Union. I mean, imagine Spain out of the European Union. It would be a disaster. You're the first Spanish prime minister I've met who hasn't raised Gibraltar in the first. Let's not. Let's not. By the way, you know, I think there were like three Labour governments in Gibraltar, in Spain and in Britain. Thanks to, I think, generosity, responsibility and, of course, thinking about people in Gibraltar and in Campo de Gibraltar, we managed to reach a very important agreement.

43:45So I think that this was a very important milestone in order to scale up and strengthen our bilateral cooperation with the UK. But going back to your question, the problem is not about political orientation, it's about the framework where politics in Britain operates after Brexit. And then I think it takes two to tango. I mean, the European Union is going to have to be quite generous also in accommodating Britain if we try to get it back. So what we're afraid of is that eventually we win the referendum, we want to come back and the European Union. And then France says, no, no, no, no, no. If you come back this time, you must get much worse.

44:29We have to punish you for your leaving. No, I think Europe has changed a lot over the last years. I mean, we have, you know, we suffered a pandemic afterwards, a war in Ukraine, the energy crisis, Gaza war, and nowadays Iran war. And what we see is, a clear alignment in global politics from the European Union and the UK government. So, you know, I don't think, I don't see today any other path than more cooperation and why not in the future? But this is my hope with all due respect to have again the UK in the European Union. The sad thing is when we have an example of trying to make a cooperation, for example, on the defence funds.

45:20We didn't even succeed in something small like that. They got into a fight about Britain is not paying enough, Britain is saying we're paying too much. And in the end, the obvious thing, which was to tie Britain into the defence procurement, was not successful. At the end of the day, I'm sure that we will reach an agreement. But that's democracy. I mean, to have different opinions, and then afterwards you negotiate and you reach an agreement. But perhaps we could do it faster. And with more generosity, more imagination from both sides, yeah? But I think that the destiny of the UK and European Union is the same one.

45:54And I think that we need to do a political effort to join forces and see in the future how do we frame this relationship. Again, as a member of the European Union or not, in my view, it's clear that in the interest of the UK. I mentioned at the start, and I don't want to get into the details because we can just go down rabbit holes, But there's these constant kind of allegations of corruption against some of your colleagues who are in jail, family members. First of all, does Spain have a corruption problem? No, no, no, no. We had it with the previous administration, unfortunately. But, you know, corruption politics free doesn't exist.

46:40I mean, it's important to keep in mind what exists is to have zero tolerance against corruption. and personally took those decisions in order to expel those cases of corruption when it comes to some of my members of the cabinet, one precisely. And when it comes to my family, of course I will defend the innocence of my brother and my wife. But politics nowadays, you have this polarization. They have also the use of different associations that demand before courts your family because they're just your family. And I hope that justice makes justice and the truth will prevail. But this is also the cost that you have to pay sometimes nowadays doing politics.

47:36So you said in relation to some of your very close allies who helped you to take over the party, these guys that were traveling around with you in the car, that you regretted what had happened, that you had moments where you felt maybe that you should resign. I mean, what went wrong? What were the lessons there? What lessons have you learned from that? There's a side dimension of this political relationship. You think that perhaps they are your friends, but at the end of the day, you don't know them. You think that you know them, but you don't know them. They have a kind of high life. But what is, I think, important is to take decisions, not to just say, well, it's not a case of corruption.

48:23since the first moment, the very first moment that police and of course the judges opened this corruption scandal, I took decisions proportionally to the case. And I think that is my responsibility. And also, on the other hand, to cooperate with international organizations such as the OECD in order to launch a state or a national plan against corruption. All in all, what I'm trying to say is that corruption is part, unfortunately, of politics. What makes the difference is how do you respond to those scandals. And in my case, I took that responsibility and I was 100 % tough and proportional to those kind of scandals.

49:09My final question, I want to ask you about Gaza. Now, I know historically Spain and Ireland have always been very, very defined as pro-Palestinian. But again, I wonder how you developed the position that you took. I think I'm right in saying you're still the only European leader who's actually called what's happening in Gaza genocide. There's a lot of experts on international law, on humanitarian law that already stated as a genocide what is happening in Gaza. And what is it about the, I know Ireland very, very well, and I kind of, I understand the emotional connection. What's the, what is it about Spain that makes it such a pro-Palestinian, it's probably the most pro-Palestinian European country, I guess.

49:57Of course, we are empathetic with the Palestinian cause, but I would say that there's a broader picture to think about it, which is that Spain has suffered for many years terrorism. First of all, in the Basque country, in the beginning of our democracy, and afterwards, we suffer a very important terrorist attack from the Jihadists during the Iraqi war. But the Israelis would say that they're victims of terrorism. Absolutely, they are. But they are not taking the correct response to fight against terrorism. And this is, I think, the real debate. Because, of course, there is a security dimension when it comes to fight against terrorism.

50:40But there's also an ideological dimension on how to fight against terrorism within society, in this case, the Palestinian society. And I think that today, if you ask yourself, is Hamas stronger or weaker after four years of war or three years of war, I could tell you perhaps Hamas is stronger. Why is that? Because there is a clear lack of political vision on how to fight against terrorism, how to give and provide Palestinians a political horizon for their own future. And that means, of course, responding to the urgencies such as humanitarian aid, stopping the war in the Gaza Strip, but also to give and provide a political horizon, which means a state of Palestine.

51:36Do you think Netanyahu is a war criminal? That is not my duty to respond to it. But I think that Israel today is more isolated internationally than before the war. And why is that? Because Prime Minister Netanyahu took a very wrong decision when it comes to responding to this Hamas terrorist attack, which by the way, we of course condemn it since day one. My final question. You've talked a lot about Spain, you've talked a lot about the European Union, the UK. But I'd like you to think a little bit about the bigger global architecture and the Global South. Because there's a risk that Germany, Britain, talk about the rules-based international order.

52:22But the reality is we have all cut our development spending a lot. There's less support going into the Global South. There's not much support for the United Nations. Sometimes it feels as though we only care about state sovereignty when it's Europe, and we don't really care about it. I agree. I think the problem or the challenge is how do we upgrade the international order to the 21st century. And that means that Western societies, Western governments, we must reduce our representativeness in some of these multilateral institutions in order to have a more representative international order, which means we will need more African Union.

53:04We will need more ASEAN, more Global South in multilateral institutions. Are we ready to reduce that representativeness? Are we ready to share global governance with other regions, with China, with India, with Brazil, and keeping at the same time what is working at international level? That is the challenge. So Britain and France have to give up their permanent membership of the Security Council? Well, perhaps it's something that we need to think about it. How Europe is represented at the Security Council? How Asia, Africa, North America, South America is represented in the different institutions?

53:49And I think that this is a very difficult question to be answered, but I think that for the good of the world, we need to face it as Western governments and Western societies. That is why I do believe that it's a big mistake for Europe to state that the international order is over. Because I think that the duty of Europe today, more than ever, is to be a force of good. And that means to be a force of cooperation, collaboration, to strengthen multilateral system and of course strengthen the international order. But also strengthen the economy. You were asking me about defense spending. But the first question that Europe should answer is how do we increase our competitiveness?

54:34How do we increase our productivity? How do we grow? And afterwards, we can talk about if we spend more on defense, social security, social services, housing policy, and so on and so forth. And there, again, we have a very different view when it comes to far-right governments and, I would say, centrist government, which means perhaps to enable our country's competitiveness means to speed the green transition. Renewals are quite competitive when it comes to, let's say, fossil fuels or even nuclear energy. And of course, what do we do within the European Union to scale up our digital market? And that means that we need to change and reform and upgrade our competition framework to forget about, you know, this is a Spaniard company.

55:32The other one is a German company or a Spanish company, German company or French company. And perhaps we should talk about European companies. so there are many many many challenges for for europe and and of course for the western governments but at the same time uh the the good news is that we know what we should do the challenge is doing it do we have that political willingness uh to to deliver no thank you so much i mean it's been a wonderful interview we're very grateful for your time thank you very very much indeed thank you it is a pleasure thank you

56:11Okay, Roy, so there's President Sanchez, quite an impressive guy. I thought he was really brilliant. I think he's a very, very skillful politician. We didn't maybe talk enough about just some of the amazing manoeuvres he's made. But he's also a great communicator of values in such important areas. I mean, just on the manoeuvres, he's one of these people who is able to take a position and then reverse the decision but somehow still not be overly punished by it so you know in his case you know he said he was not going to give amnesty to the Catalan leaders and he did he wasn't going to the implication was he wasn't going to go into business I think with the far left and he did he also did this very radical thing right at the beginning of his leadership where he effectively took on the entire party leadership was thrown out of the party started a grassroots movement seized back control so under the surface of this very articulate calm communicator is somebody who's able to make these amazing kind of political moves yeah no he's definitely a phenomenal politician i was speaking to quite a few of the the kind of diplomatic circle in madrid ahead of the thing and they're saying that you know he is by a long stretch the most impressive spanish politician there has been for some time now the other thing that somebody said to me that was really interesting we didn't get too much into the domestic spanish politics not least because he's in his his position on the international stage is so interesting at the moment because he's absolutely calling out trump in so many ways one of them said to me something very interesting he said this is not a politician who's running a 51-49 strategy.

57:57He's running a 33-33-33 strategy. Make sure you get the 34th, which is really interesting. And of course, the other thing that's happening in Spanish politics is that there's a lot of focus on the far right, Vox, and he kind of plays into that. I mentioned a lot of the questions that we got. Some of them were in the field of why do you keep sort of, why does he keep labeling the conservative party as these kind of, you know, terribly dangerous, et cetera, is because he's trying to ally them to the far right. So you get a lot of debate about the far right. But the other fascinating thing going on is there are all these parties to the left of him, including some that sit in his cabinet, plus a now very charismatic leader, this guy called Ruffian, which I think is a wonderful name for a politician in Catalonia, who's trying to put together an alliance to the left of Sanchez.

58:49Now, I actually think in the end, And the 34-33-33 strategy, that might help him kind of consolidate a position in the centre, push the right off to the extremes, have the left off to him. Is that the strategy for Starmer? I mean, is that Starmer putting the Greens off to his left, making the Conservatives associated with reform and coming through the middle? I think to some extent it is. And it was very interesting, you know, when we were, and we'll come on to his very clear advice for Keir Starber, particularly on Brexit. it but also this thing he kept saying I mean it was it was my words but he kind of lent into it this idea about communicating in bold primary colors I mean everything when you said after the interview finished and you said you know he just is so clear it's because he is speaking in bold primary colors all the time even though as you say sometimes the colors change when we pressed him on how do you deal with this kind of Frankenstein coalition with all these different places over there and he had flipped it from i'm a pragmatic politician putting all this together to it makes me a better leader that i can deal with all these different shades of opinion so his new primary color yeah having fought so hard to get the coalition is coalition makes for good politics and that's why people like me as a leader i mean he's very smart the best primary color bit I thought was that he was able to take a radical position very unashamed position on immigration connects it to growth which people really care about and to values and to values exactly so that that thing that you very very rarely hear a British politician say when he said look when you're talking about particularly North African immigrants coming in yes they're great for our economy they're contributing you know many many times more than they're receiving in welfare but it's also a moral obligation there's something about humans here and i i thought that also connected to his international position his comfort talking about ethics international law and framing things and i think that's so important i mean i i keep coming back to my obsession with aristotle saying um that the three things that matters for him are logos pathos and ethos which are the in my terms the policy ideas the communication but also the morality you know what's the ethical values framework underpinning it and i i i thought he was very good at that i mean i did a bit of sort of ringing around and and beforehand and of course my my all-time favorite spaniard do you know who my all-time favorite spaniard is miriam gonzalez correct mrs nick clegg is my all-time favorite spaniard and she will not be enjoying this conversation because she's not a fan no no well and in fact i think maybe because of that you you said to me rory i don't think you're going to like him as much as you think that you'll like him no no the The reason I thought of that is because actually when push comes to shove Rory, you are basically a conservative.

1:01:44He is, I'd say, to the left of me on all sorts of different issues. What I think Miriam doesn't like is his ability to project himself internationally as this very progressive voice. She said, for example, we didn't really get into this because I think it's too much down in the weeds of Spanish politics. But this point about only having three budgets in eight years is partly been allowed because he's very good at signing executive orders, a bit like Trump. Right. She would argue that he's actually been, you know, in relation to the judiciary, free media, that he's a lot more a kind of old fashioned sort of, you know, controlling politician that he gets credit for.

1:02:26And also, I think her other big point is that it's all very well to talk the talk about European dynamism and European modernizing and making the economy more efficient. But in the Spanish context, is he really doing that other than through this message about immigration? But listen, I found him really compelling, I think. And I think what I go for is what I agree with you. It's just that neither he nor his team made any effort really to find out what sort of, they knew what, they know what our interviews are like, but they weren't sort of trying to find out what we were most interested in, what we were going to push on.

1:03:02We set out in the introduction, all of the areas that you and I had kind of thought about getting into. And in all of them, I just found him very, very clear. He's got that old fashioned thing of listen to a question, answer the question, make a point that might lead you to another question, and on the conversation goes, which I found very, very refreshing. Just to go back to your point about whether this is a Keir Starmer strategy. Interestingly, when Anthony Scaramucci and I did our show in Belfast, and of course, Belfast is part of the United Kingdom, but they have very different polities, different parties, different debates, but they follow our politics very, very closely.

1:03:43What was really interesting when I did one of my show of hands thing about who's going to win the next election, There was some support for saying it would be Keir Starmer. There was a lot of support for saying it will be a Labour leader that is not Keir Starmer. There was zero, I think zero, for the idea that the Tories are going to win the next election. And there was pretty muted, pretty mutedly the idea that there was going to be Farage. Now, I actually think that it is not impossible that Keir Starmer can win the next election, in part because of what you just identified, this 34-33-33. The only thing I'd say is I think our politics is even more volatile than Spanish politics right now.

1:04:24And Keir Starmer, unfortunately, from his and Labour's perspective, doesn't have this sense that Sanchez is giving his own people of kind of energy and dynamism direction. and honestly rory i had i only had you know i don't like quoting taxi drivers i had two taxis two taxes what you're doing in spain told them the first one said he is the best president we have ever had and it's about to when we realized it and the second the second guy just said you know that guy i don't care what the polls say he's going to win again i think it's interesting also how there would have been a very cynical view which he would have got from some of his polling people who might have said to him a few years ago for god's sake the only thing people care about is talking about cost of living don't go out there and champion immigration there's a lot of people who do not want a lot of immigrants coming to spain shut up about that and listen people aren't that interested in international affairs and taking some big idealistic position on not using spanish bases is just going to piss off the americans lead to tariff wars wreck your relationships with NATO, just shut up about it.

1:05:32But actually, I think it's an example of where taking a very clear, unambiguous primary color position helps. I mean, I don't want to get right back again into the Keir Starmer thing, but one of the issues around his position, even if, you know, you're on your side and think it was the right thing to do, is it's not a very primary colors position. You know, it's a position where we are seeing American jets taking off from British airstrips all the time while he's also taking on Trump. Final thing I thought, as I'm sort of putting our interview together with the interviews we did with Kyriakos Mitsotakis in the Prime Minister of Greece, and with Eddie Rama in Albania, and Albin Kurti, Stub, Jonas Gastora in Norway.

1:06:16These guys are oddly much more confident talking in a really interesting articulate way about international affairs than almost any of the leading British politicians. And I don't know why that is. There's something very odd. these people feel incredibly confident internationally now it may be that for some reason they're ending up with these people with much more international careers so he obviously served in the european commission uh mitsutakis has worked all over the world snub was a diplomat exactly and and it's true janus castora was the executive director of the world health organization but there is something quite interesting about these senior european figures where they feel much more sort of global, internationally sophisticated, confident making claims about the shape of the world.

1:07:04I mean, Mark Carney would be another classic example of this. Yeah. But the Brits are not, I'm not hearing that from Yvette Cooper. I'm not hearing that from Keir Starmer. Am I right that this British politics feels a bit different? Whereas I suspect Tony Blair would have been very comfortable talking like that, being one of those kind of people. Look, I think Brexit is a big part of this. We'll come on to that. I think that Keir Starmer definitely feels instinctively that a big part of his job is foreign affairs and foreign policy, particularly now with Ukraine and Iran and all this. And that's a big part of his job.

1:07:40But you can see in his communication, he always feels he has to be somehow relating it to cost of living, your lives at home and what have you. What I'm seeing with the European leaders is less of that need. and I think the other thing to understand is that and this came through very much in particularly maybe with the the interview with Alexander Stubb president of Finland because he does foreign policy but he doesn't do Europe now there's still a mindset in Britain that thinks well Europe is foreign policy but if you're one of these guys no it's not it is a part of your everyday kind of political political life I also think the other thing where I you talked about their confidence in how they express themselves on these issues the other thing that I think links all of those people that you mentioned is how steadily they are becoming much much more open and frank about what they now consider to be a fact not an opinion a fact brexit has been really bad for europe and dreadful for the united kingdom and if the british government had any sense they'd just kind of dive into the water cold and say we're going to fix this he said it very much in those terms stub Bob, that is his view that, you know, he said the thing about seven years to leave, seven years to find out you've made a mistake, hopefully not seven years to get back in.

1:08:58And I think you asked him whether, you know, but isn't there still the kind of French thing of wanting to rub these guys' noses in the dirt for a bit longer? Again, they all seem to be thinking, no, because this is the world is now too serious. And genuinely, we do miss the Brits. We do lose something by not having the Brits there. But listen, I completely agree with you. I said last week that just out of the Iran thing, I'd love to have heard a big speech about Churchill's view of the world. I'd love to have heard a big speech about how this is the moment for renewables to kind of have the next agenda.

1:09:28And likewise, on this international stuff, I think we've got to stop pretending it's just a kind of little extension of domestic stuff. It's fundamental. The leadership required is fundamental. The issues that arise for it, peace, prosperity, energy, this international situation. I'm with you. I want to hear more from our politicians, not sort of embarrassed about it. It's so interesting because when I entered Parliament 2010, I would have said that the general feeling when I went to EU council meetings, this kind of stuff, is that it was the British politicians who are much more confident making big global statements, talking about the Middle East, talking about international law.

1:10:12and a lot of the european politicians back 15 20 years ago felt much more domestic they some of them uh you know austrian politicians i can remember felt almost like local councillors who'd somehow wandered into national politics now it's feeling very different it now feels as though these european leaders sometimes from quite small countries have a kind of sophistication intelligence intellectual ambition yeah we've got the hungarian election coming up on april the 12th that is going to be one of the most watched elections in the world in a relatively small European country. That's because Orbán is such a kind of part of the MAGA thing.

1:10:51But no, I'm completely with you. And I think the other thing where I said to him at one point, do you think Europe's lost his confidence? And he said, no, but Europe does have to step up on the economic dynamism, does have to step up. And this is where Miriam would say he's just not doing it on policy terms. But I still have this view, you know, when we interviewed Alexander Stubb, and he's written this book, The Triangle of Power, Global West, Global East, Global South. And you said to him, look, maybe it should be a quadrangle of power. And I am absolutely convinced that the bottom of the quadrangle has to be Europe.

1:11:23And interesting, again, even though when push comes to shove and they have to all sign or pass a treaty or get a law through their own parliament about allowing in Ukraine, Montenegro, Albania, etc. Will they all actually want to do that? I don't know, but he was very, very clear. More Europe, more countries in the European Union, including hopefully Ukraine and the UK. That's a proper vision. That's a proper sense of something really big that we want to fight for. And I think that what's happened post-Brexit, particularly given that so many of our politicians, Johnson, Farage, the Tories, reform, still try to pretend that Brexit's been a really good thing for the country.

1:12:04We're having a kind of la-la-land debate. It's not a real debate about what's actually happening in our own country. It's very, very weird. I've been really cheered up, actually, by, as I say, half a dozen of the European leaders we've spoken to recently. And, Rory, what about La Moncloa? I mean, if that's your working environment. I mean, I have seen rats, OK? I have seen rats in Downey Street, in the Elysee Palace, OK? I didn't see any rats scuffling around that was like being in an art gallery beautiful all right well Alistair thank you see you very soon see you soon take care bye

1:12:48hello it's William Drumpel again from Empire here is a clip from our recent six part series on Mao Zedong the Greatly Forward was supposed to be on its face a kind of highly rationalised bureaucratic system of working out what China could produce and then, you know, working upwards so that you would produce, you know, enough food for everyone to eat and crops that could then be exported to increase China's GDP and everything would be great. But basically, because all the figures are being fiddled by officials who are too terrified to give the real information in case they get arrested or, you know, kind of fired from their jobs, they pass on statistics upwards saying, yes, it's all going great and we're kind of producing huge amounts of grain and products and up in the cities and then beyond that to Beijing, the guys at the top are saying, oh, well, this is great.

1:13:31Well, in that case, we can export lots to the Soviet Union. So you have the kind of obscenity of out in the countryside, there isn't enough food for people to eat while the grain is being seized and exported from the country to bring in money for the state. This is very much a rural phenomenon. And that's significant because, of course, shortly before this, the system which still exists today was started up in China with a sort of Soviet-style internal passport system. It's called the hukou or household registration scheme. And it basically means that you can't just simply wander around wherever you want in China.

1:14:00You have to sort of have internal permission. So people in the cities were no longer really kind of interacting that much with the countryside. They were kind of almost separated off. And while people in the cities, you know, found there was a certain amount of deprivation, the devastation was really out in the countryside where essentially it turned into mass starvation. About 1959, 1960, 61, it became clear in the countryside there simply wasn't enough food to go around. But when the news came through to the top leadership, including Mao, he basically chose to ignore it. He didn't exactly deny it, but he basically said, well, you know, we need to keep going.

1:14:32And he said something like, if things are not going so well, then let's just not say anything about it and keep going. And that led to one of the great confrontations of that period, which is the conference, Communist Party top level conference held at Lushan. We hope you enjoyed that clip. To listen to the full series, search Empire World History wherever you get your podcasts.

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