185. Can Labour Win Back Scotland? (Anas Sarwar)

28:03And the final bit, and you actually, you both are a good example of this, and you both will know this from your own lived experience and you both travel a lot, is why don't we tap into the soft power of Scotland for economic benefit. Ireland does it brilliantly. It taps into Brand Ireland to attract investment, tourism, and opportunity with the rest of the world. Scotland can do the exact same, particularly in the North American market, but much more besides. So I want people to believe, because it is, Scotland's a great place to visit. It's a great group of people. It's got beautiful landscapes, but I also want big neon signs that say Scotland is also a great place to do business.

28:39I said in the introduction that when the general election happened and Labour got that huge landslide, you must have thought, we are in a really good place now for the Holyrood election. And yet here you are looking at pretty grim, grisly poll figures and the SNP looking like they're coming back, going to be staying in power after 19 years. I mean, what is... I think we're going to surprise some people, Alice. Well, you know, maybe, but just to answer me, what has happened that's gone from point A to point B or point C and point B being where you were so frustrated that you felt you had to call for Keir Starmer to go?

29:13So I think there's a couple of caveats to put on that first. First of all, this was always going to be a hard election and is a hard election, but one I still believe we can win. Secondly, if we hadn't won the UK general election, there is no chance we could have even been in contention for this election because I think the politics of the UK would have been Tories re-elected despite all the scandal and chaos and I think that would have been a very different approach between the SNP and another Tory government across the UK. But I mean, I remember saying it to UK shadow cabinet and then very early UK cabinet that the election in Scotland will be much easier if it's a midterm of a popular Labour government rather than the midterm of an unpopular Labour government.

29:53So that is undoubtedly a challenge. I think there are two things in the analysis, though, that is missing in Westminster, but actually also up here as well, which is undoubtedly a UK Labour government is unpopular. But I think right now that is overpriced in the opinion polls. and at the same time I think people underestimate how unpopular an SNP Scottish government is and I think right now that's underpriced in the opinion polls and my job over the course of the next five weeks or so is to persuade people that let's not pass a judgement on two years of a UK government, let's pass judgement on 20 years of an SNP Scottish government and this is what we would do differently using the power we have right now by pulling our country together rather than simply dividing it on those constitutional lines.

30:34Rory Stewart:I guess you're very politely skirting around one of the massive things. I'm happy not to be polite, Rory, and don't let me skirt. Tell me what you want to do. Cut to the chase. I'm happy to cut to the chase. You did call for the Prime Minister, Keir Sama, to resign, right? I mean, that's a big deal for a Labour leader in Scotland. Do you regret doing that? Have you changed your mind? Are you backing off on that? I mean, you didn't quite engage with Alice's question around that. You didn't lean into it and say, I was right to do so. He needs to go. I could see you wanted a follow-up, Rory. That's why I was letting you back in.

31:04Oh, thank you. Thank you. I stand by it. I don't recoil from it. And I think people need to understand what I did and why I did it. And there's lots of people, I think, that think about it in the premise of what it means for the ups and downs of individual Westminster politicians. And I think there's lots of people that think about it in the context of what does it mean for Westminster. But I think they misunderstand, one, me, but second, also the reality of what's happening in Scotland. I am putting myself in front of the people of Scotland in the next five weeks looking them in their eye asking them to put their trust and faith in me and I think people in Scotland deserve to know what do I stand for what are my values what am I willing to accept what are my standards and whether I will be honest not just have a private view and say one thing in private and a different thing in public but will I be honest and what would I do differently and lots of people have thought about what I said in the context of Westminster, genuinely, I was making abundantly clear that my first priority and my first loyalty is to my country, Scotland.

32:10And frankly, this might sound a bit harsh. I don't really care what people in Westminster think. I only care what people in Scotland think.

32:15Rory Stewart:You must care who the prime minister is. Of course I do. And it's just so you said you're going to be honest. You're smiling there, Rory. I like your smile. The Rory Stewart smiles out, Alistair. Right. So you want to be honest. You want to tell us what you think so be honest tell us what you think about kirstama and why he shouldn't be prime minister well you've heard what i've said and i mean you haven't actually said much about that you sort of you've sort of told us that you know you stand by his values yeah yeah look i i said what i said i stand by what i said what did you say again i mean i can't actually remember i i i think you know exactly what i said rory what my view is and let me explain why let me explain why because i had spent weeks in the scottish parliament exposing the queen of Elizabeth University Hospital scandal, where myself, families impacted, some of them had lost loved ones, healthcare professionals who had been bullied and gaslit.

33:06We spent eight years campaigning to get truth and justice about what was happening at the infections situation at the hospital. And to this day, that hospital has not been validated and wards verified. And so I was in parliament making this argument of First Minister's questions. And honestly, if that was a hospital anywhere else in the UK I believe it would be wall to wall news coverage every single day about how this could be allowed to happen. I came out of that parliament and got doorstepped by the entire Scottish press lobby and I didn't get a single question about the hospital I didn't get a single question about the families every single question was about Peter Mandelson, the UK Labour government and the judgement calls and him being appointed as the US ambassador and honestly I'm just not willing to defend that I'm not willing to defend what was someone who shouldn't have even been considered for the job of ambassador never mind be ambassador and also I'm not willing to sacrifice Scotland to that kind of argument to that debate because who the government in Scotland is who the first minister is really matters to us in Scotland because it's our schools our hospitals our care homes our town cities villages it's our ferries it's our transport system it's our local businesses and I'm not willing to sacrifice any of them because I'm not willing to be open and honest about what's happening across the UK or indeed what needs to happen here in Scotland.

34:26Rory Stewart:Okay and a final one for me it strikes me that once you've taken that big decision to separate yourself from Starmat it opens up a lot of opportunity for you to be clear about what you would do in running Scotland which is different from what Labour's doing in England and it seems to me you haven't taken enough of that opportunity. You've put yourself in a very difficult position where you've said, okay, I'm criticizing about this narrow thing about Mandelson, but your voters are angry about a lot of the stuff that the UK government's doing. So now that you've taken the radical decision to separate yourself, why don't you lay out a radically different Scottish Labour vision instead of trying to defend a lot of things that irritate people about what the Labour government's doing in the UK?

35:11I'm not sure what you're suggesting I'm defending. So first of all, look, I'm not doing it to run against a UK Labour government. I'm running against a Scottish SNP government. But where I think, I do think we can show and lead by example here in Scotland is we are going to bring down the tax burden in Scotland and demonstrate we can grow our economy and cut tax. We are going to reform our rate system to make sure we're not rigging it against high streets and town centres. But even bigger than that, if you think about the first conversation we had when we started this conversation around 45 minutes ago is we talked about the big challenge around the politics of the right, largely the politics of reform.

35:54I honestly believe in Scotland, we will demonstrate to the rest of the UK how you can win on the politics of hope and unity, not feed off the politics of despair. And I honestly think we can be an example to the rest of the UK, how you can do change by bringing people together, not further dividing people. and also be an example to the rest of the UK that you can do it while telling a positive story about your country. And I think a lot of that's been what's missing since the UK Labour government got elected.

36:26One of the conventional wisdoms that seems to be getting challenged as we get nearer to this election on May the 7th is a sense that existed over the last few years that Scotland was kind of a bit of immune to the threat of reform. but you look at the polls and reform seem to be doing reasonably well is that because we got that conventional wisdom wrong or is something changing the body politic in scotland that is that has made that right-wing populism more attractive so i've always had a view alistair that our chattering class in scotland had a more progressive list of center position than what would be the nuts and bolts of you if you pull people about priorities and different issues so people often talk about the rest of the UK wants to be much more stringent and stricter on welfare, whereas Scotland wants to be really generous on welfare.

37:15Actually, if you look at polling, it's about 2 % or 3 % different to how people view the welfare state. Immigration, again, people will think, oh, the rest of the UK, they really want to clamp down on immigration. They think immigration is a huge issue people don't really care about in Scotland. But in actual fact, immigration is now rising as an issue in Scotland. It's probably a top three issue in Scotland now. And actually always, if you look at views on immigration, it was always a 2 or 3 % difference. So I've always been of a view that we have a chattering class in Scotland that is a bit more left wing than the rest of the UK.

37:45But what are challenges? We're not immune to this in Scotland compared to anywhere else. And in some ways, whilst I don't think, well I know, the SNP and reform aren't of the same political values, I'm not going to pretend they are. I'm not going to pretend that the SNP and reform have a same view when it comes to right wing politics. They don't have the same value system. It'd be churlish to even suggest that they do. But they do have one similarity. They both play the politics of fear and blame. Both fundamentally have an argument that says, identify a problem and point at a group of people or an institution and say, it wouldn't be that problem if it wasn't for them over there.

38:21The SNP do it by pointing to Westminster or to London or to the UK and saying, we've got these problems in Scotland, we wouldn't have them if only we were away from that lot. And reforms say, look at this problem, if it wasn't for them over there, usually pointing at a community, whether it's by race, religion, and saying we wouldn't have these problems if it wasn't for them over there. Both feed off on us versus them. Both feed off a fear and blame. I'm just done with that kind of politics. And that is, I think, our generational challenge is do we become a country that lets the politics of fear and blame and despair take hold and all the dangers that then poses to our country more broadly?

38:59Or are we going to confront it with a positive story about what the challenges are, how we change the country, we're bringing the country together in the process. And that's what I want to demonstrate we can do in Scotland. And that's what I think is a lesson for a UK Labour Party as well.

39:13Rory Stewart:How on earth have the SNP managed to survive? I mean, I admittedly, I'm not very friendly to them. But I look at them, you know, even when I'm in Scotland, I think, come on, these guys lost their independence referendum. As you said, Scottish schools are in a pretty big mess. The Scottish economy isn't even doing as well as the pretty lamentable English economy. They had this amazing scandal where their leader and their chief executive ended up with weird stuff to do with the police and motorhomes. And they've been in forever. I mean, nobody likes insurgents and governments get tired. How on earth can they, after umpteen years, still be on course to win again?

39:51Rory Stewart:So there's a couple of things on that. One is, I always joke that it's often better being lucky than good. And they've been very lucky with lots of circumstances that have happened across the UK. and lots of what to campaign against. So Boris obviously was a contrast to Nicola Sturgeon through the COVID period, et cetera. But I think there's a more self-reflective part that we have to be honest about. They kept winning and we kept losing because we weren't good enough. And I set myself that challenge when I took on this job five years ago, when everyone said the Labour Party was dead and it was just a shell when I took over five years ago, is how do we get the Labour Party back on its feet, make it worthy of its name and make it worthy of people's support again?

40:36How do you earn people's trust? And we did the hard work to get ourselves back into second place in the council elections in 2022. We did the hard work to win the Rutherglen by-election when people said we couldn't win. We did the hard work to earn people's trust and to win the general election in Scotland getting a share of the vote. There was a 10 times increase in share of the vote in Scotland compared to the rest of the UK because we did the hard work and won people's trust in 2024. We did the hard work to win the Hamilton by-election when people say we're going to come third. One journalist even suggested we would come fifth in that by-election.

41:11And now we're going to do the hard work to persuade people for this election. So we've got to earn people's trust and their support and be good enough to win. And for too long, sadly, in the last 20 years, we've not been good enough and that's why we got beat. Given the complicated electoral system, which we brought in in 1998, partly to make sure that no one party ever had absolute power. And that's got very, very well. Are you taking responsibility for that? I was a young boy then. Anyway, that was part of the thinking since when the SNP have had quite a lot of power. Which of the parties that are standing in this election would you definitively not ever go into coalition with?

41:47We're not doing any coalitions, any deals, any stitch-ups. Alex Salmon demonstrated actually in 2007 that you can do minority government and the parliament can work. And don't forget, in 2007, he did minority government and he went on to win a majority in 2011. And my intention is to hopefully win the majority of constituencies in this election and to form a minority Labour government and go back to what devolution was supposed to be about, which was try and find common ground on individual issues to make progress in our country. So why is John Swinney going around the place saying that you and Nigel Farage are, I hesitate to put this thought into your head, but getting in bed together.

42:25I mean, it is the act of a desperate man, Alistair. But can I just say that you would never, ever, ever go into any sort of deal with... Well, of course not. And what about the Tories? No, no deals, no coalition, no grubby backroom stuff. And the reason why I think it's really important is this is a political party in reform that literally spent tens of thousands of pounds on an advert saying that my first loyalty would not be to Scotland, it would be to somewhere else. Today, they're launching a billboard campaign claiming that we are being overrun by rubber dinghies in Scotland. And also today, they've repeated that they're opening to the idea of rerunning that ad in this election campaign.

43:09And I just think John Swinney has gone in the matter of a week in this election campaign from starting the first day of the campaign saying they were guaranteed to win to now saying, don't vote Labour in this election because they're going to do some kind of grubby deal with reform. so therefore vote for the SNP again it's desperate our politics needs to be much bigger and better than that let's have an argument debate about how we fix our schools how we reform our NHS how we grow Scotland's economy let's have that kind of debate let's demonstrate the best of Scottish politics rather than this kind of nonsense about Nigel Farage is going to be in bed with me this and the next thing the guy's a horror I won't touch him with a barge pole I reject his politics I want him gone I can't wait till he gets gubbed at the next general election.

43:52And I hope we start the process of gubbing them in this one.

43:55Rory Stewart:But you're not talking about the SNP in quite that way. I mean, I'd be interested in talking about corruption in the SNP, the behavior of individual politicians. We talk about Tory sleaze and scandal, but honestly, Alex Salmond, Peter Morrell, there's a sense sometimes of a very small, cozy, intimate, weird party where the leader can be married to the chief executive, where all kinds of shenanigans going on. Isn't it time that that was called out in this campaign? Yes. And let's be honest, John Sweeney has been the architect of much of this. John Sweeney wants to pretend that he's now some kind of, I think the line he's using is a fresh start.

44:36Someone who's been in government for 20 years to claim that he is now the fresh start that our country needs, I think is frankly laughable. But I think there's something a bit more serious at play here. So look how a party operates. Of course, that's the subject of investigation and the facts of that have to be to come out. But let's look at how they functioned as a government. It is a government that thinks secrecy, cover up, never taking responsibility, always finding somebody else to blame is the correct path. John Swinney's instinct has always been protect the party first, do what's right by Scotland second.

45:15And I just think that kind of politics, again, is something I've got no time for. I want to demonstrate that I will put do what's right by Scotland, I'll put Scotland first and that Scotland can do differently than what we have just now. And I'm not going to pretend the SNP has got everything wrong in 20 years, but they've lost their way. They're out of ideas, they're out of energy, and we need a new generation of leadership in Scotland. And that's the positive offer I'll be making to Scots over the course of the next five weeks. Has devolution overall been a success? I think devolution has been a success and I think it is a successful concept.

45:46I think the danger is that unless we start demonstrating the gains of leadership for this generation of the here and now, that the debate then becomes polarized between whether it's leave the UK or shut down the parliament and that would be a terrible, terrible place for us to be. So let's demonstrate that devolution can work and actually So let's do the next step of devolution, which is take power out of Holyrood and give it to the regions of Scotland so that different parts of the country can flourish in a similar way that regional devolution has really worked successfully in England.

46:19Rory Stewart:Would your children go into politics? And what would they say if we put them in the studio and said, are you lining up to be the third generation politicians? Honestly, the thought of my kids going into politics, honestly. I may your kids. I thought they were much brighter than you. Undoubtedly. undoubtedly brighter better looking the full shebang but i think sacrificing two generations is enough rory let's not sacrifice a third look the reason why i wouldn't want them to do it and ultimately i'll obviously always back my kids and what they want to do but i don't think they'd ever want to do it and i wouldn't want them to do it is for all you and i think about fatherhood a lot as as you would and I just think that I know how I had to create a alternative normal for myself when I was growing up and I know that my kids have to do the same as well where I've presented and projected an unnormal normal for them and that comes with burden comes with some opportunities no doubt but it comes with burden and it comes with some levels of hardship particularly in the current climate of how politics is.

47:27So I want to serve my time as First Minister, do right by this country, demonstrate we can do politics differently. And then having done that, I want to make sure I'm spending my time nurturing, supporting my kids. And by that time, you never know, I might even be a granddad. I can look after them as well. Oh, lovely. Well, listen, one thing you mustn't let them do is read Rory's book. In fact, you probably should let them read it because that means they'd never, ever think about going into politics. I think my eldest has read Rory's book. You were chinning my eldest yesterday for his dress code.

47:58He was very upset about that. Was he? About the Stone Island? I was just pointing out the Stone Island as a brand is associated with footballing. Maybe not anymore. But my boy, honestly, he's my eldest. I'm not going to say anything about the other two, by the way. But my eldest is the most calm, sweet, sincere, hardworking you can ever imagine. They're the ones to watch. So listen, my last couple of questions. you mentioned the success of the Irish in the way that they brand Ireland globally and Scotland does it a bit but not maybe successful I want to know why have you never ever ever worn a kilt given you want to be the first minister of Scotland and secondly have you seen my knees my knees point in opposite directions nobody's knees look good Naomi Campbell's knees don't look that good she's my cousin's you know I've never I've never looked so I wouldn't know the answer to that Alistair so but that would be a powerful thing a Muslim senior Muslim Scottish politician who may be first minister you couldn't get more Scottish than I think you should do it I really do so I do tartan trues oh that's what Rory and his friends do it even I don't have the pinky ring like Rory that's the thing that's the difference so I've done tartan trues obviously tartan waistco I'll wear Harris tweed I've done the tartan tie but the actual So the reason why I've not, so it's funny because there's been a few occasions where I thought about, right, I'll wear a kilt.

49:28But I've always said, so I will wear a kilt for the first time, but I want to wear it when it's something majorly significant. So. Scotland won the World Cup. So. So post Scotland won the World Cup. I might never wear a kilt then if it's Scotland won the World Cup. so I don't know whether it is post an election or a son's wedding or something like that but there'll be a kill Alistair and I'll make sure I send you a picture on my knees when it happens okay okay and then my second point on on soft power is Trump and his Scottish connection through his mum is that an asset to Scotland or is it a bit of a you'd rather reason you'd rather his mum would be Venezuelan so look I think there is actually an opportunity so I was I was actually in Stornoway this week and I was looking at the relatively new cruise liner terminal that they've opened at the port of Stornoway.

50:24This is Stornoway on Lewis where his mum came from. Correct. Where he calls Serious Scotland. Serious Scotland, yeah. And they were actually telling me how they're getting more and more people making bookings and interested in more stops from American cruise ships than pre the election of Donald Trump. So if there is an opportunity to create that connection for positive tourism opportunities, then why not? I think there's a way of doing it without having to say that you agree with someone's politics. Okay, I think it'd be much better if his mother had never left Lewis and the world would be a much better place.

50:58Listen, it's not as Mammy's fault how he's turned out. I'm a defender of the Mammy's, by the way. I wouldn't be half the person I was if it wasn't for my mother. So I would say all the good things about me are because of my mother. All the bad things I take responsibility for myself. Okay, okay. Well, somewhere in Punjab, your dad will be listening to this. Thank you, you cheeky little bugger. Oh no, he knows I prefer my mum to my dad anyway. It's fine. That's an open secret. All right, well, listen, thank you for your time.

51:24Rory Stewart:My pleasure. Thank you so much. It's been great. Thank you, Anas, very much. Thanks, Rory.

51:30Rory Stewart:So, Rory, what do you think of that? Well, look, I like him very much. He came into Parliament with me. I think he's very, very funny, warm, cheeky in person. I mean, if the listeners had seen all the shenanigans about you teasing him about being late and him accusing you of chinning him and all this kind of stuff. But I do fear that not enough of that comes across when he's doing his public stuff. I mean, maybe I'd be interested in this, but you know, what I would have thought was massive open goals to lay into the SNP. And he kept coming back to this line. I'm not going to say that everything they've done for the last 20 years has been a bad thing.

52:03Rory Stewart:And, you know, even Trump, you know, it's not that difficult to say Trump is a blithering idiot and I don't want to have anything to do with him. And there's something a bit odd about it, particularly in modern politics, to be unable to say very clearly that the parties you're running against are pretty monstrous and that somebody like Trump. I mean, there was a lack of, just occasionally, I just kept thinking, it's not quite sound, but it's a lack of kind of, given how funny and smart he is, just a lack of energy and adjectives and clarity. It's funny because I spent part of today this morning with some friends I know up here who were talking about the election.

52:43And one of the things they were saying is that they get fed up with the fact that all the parties ever do. The SNP talk about themselves and they talk about independence the whole time. And all the other parties just attack the SNP. One thing he's definitely doing, I talked about this to him earlier, is avoiding trying to make this election remotely about independence because the SNP are trying to do that. I think that's a deliberate thing of not just being a kind of negative politician. I actually thought he came most alive when you were pushing him on a pro-business agenda and being different from the UK.

53:18I think he's trying to be more positive than just sort of sitting around saying the SNP are terrible. And let's be honest, Rory, if he does become First Minister of Scotland, he cannot say Trump's a blithering idiot. I'm sorry, he just can't. We're back to our Sanchez argument. Labour cannot be like Sanchez and the rhetoric. You and I can, but I think if you're the First Minister of Scotland, you've got to be a little bit careful.

53:39Rory Stewart:Well, okay. But when it comes to Alex Salmond and Peter Morrell and the scandals in the SNP, I think he could be pretty clear about that. I mean, I didn't really see that he'd suffer much saying, listen, it's pretty pathetic. They're pretty incompetent. It's a bit of a disgrace. I mean, why is he being quite so polite about the party he's running against? I think he would think he's not being that polite. I think he keeps saying the countries, they've failed the country. They've lost their way. We need to replace them. I think he's trying to do a positive campaign, which normally I think you would applaud.

54:12Rory Stewart:I love the business stuff. I love the business stuff. But maybe there's a balance here. I think that he could find a few crisp, funny, brutal lines about his opposition, which would get you laughing, which you'd remember. I mean, can you remember any of his lines about the SNP? Really? That's the only one. They've lost their way. They've lost their way. Yeah. The most positive stuff I thought was lovely. I'm all for him on business. And I think that's hugely important. And it's great to see somebody in British politics making old-fashioned arguments about entrepreneurs and business people and so i just i just no i was just so many of the american politicians we've interviewed recently seem to be just you know from gavin newsome onwards just much more colorful and relaxed and memorable in the way that they talk about the world and their opponents and british politics still seems a bit cautious and cramped essentially i listen i think if you compare it to most labor politicians he is not cautious and cramped and he's very very colorful and he's very very um i can see what he's trying to do a thing, which is you could spend all your time whacking the SNP.

55:14And the SNP, it seems to me, up here are fighting a pretty strong base campaign at the moment, which is why they do keep going on about independence. But I think that, and yes, you can attack the record, but I think he's trying to answer that question. And it's interesting, he goes one step further, he actually says, we can't just criticize the SNP, we have to look at ourselves for not having been able to beat them. So I think it's genuinely trying to do this a little bit differently and fight a positive campaign. I think the worry I have from a Labour perspective is that the campaign's not going to be long enough to get him through to the public in a way that I think if he could get through to the public, I think he'd be very, very popular.

55:52Rory Stewart:Is there maybe something I'm missing about the way that people think about the SNP? I mean, for example, Labour doesn't run campaigns against the Tories in a general election in Britain saying, I'm not going to pretend that everything the Tories have done for the last 20 years is wrong, that they go for the jugular. They're incredibly clear about what a disgrace they are and why they need to be booted out. Is it that actually he senses there's a huge amount of residual sympathy for the SNP and people don't really see them as bad people and therefore you can't do what Labour would naturally do to the Tories?

56:26No, I think it's more that he is trying to project a sense of positivity about himself about labor and about scotland i think the reason that ultimately and you know we discussed it on the podcast at the time i thought it was a very big call as you said to go for to call for keir starmer to resign but i think that was his kind of break point and it's you know the smp were all ready to go with posters that basically said you know anna saw is keir starmer's man in scotland because they were going to capitalize on this sense that Labour's not as popular as they were when they were first elected. So I think he's trying to be positive about himself, his own personality, his own character, try to put a more positive vision for what the Labour Party stands for, which is where I agree with you.

57:09I think the business thing is very, very important. And probably saying to himself, it's dead easy to track the SNP, but every minute I'm doing that, I'm not telling people why we're the alternative.

57:22Rory Stewart:And I think it's why Labour is the alternative that is the hardest battle right now. Okay, well, maybe my final thing would just be, it's not a question of time. It might just be a question of two or three more memorable, crisp phrases and adjectives and metaphors and a bit of way of making people wake up, you know, telling image somewhere. Well, the one thing I know, Roy, is he listens very closely to the podcast, often tells me. In fact, he was talking about it last time I spoke to him, and he was remembering interviews that I'd frankly forgot what we'd done. And so he follows it very closely.

57:52As he left the room, he said, oh, God, this is the bit where you guys talk about me. So he'll doubtless be listening. And then he'll probably come and say, come on, then, Rory, give me these adjectives. Give me these adjectives. What are these adjectives I've got to find?

58:04Rory Stewart:Good. Well, let's have that. I also agree with you about the kilt. You think he should wear a kilt? Absolutely. I spent quite a lot of time at the coronation next to Homsa Yusuf, who was wearing a kilt. Yeah. I don't know if someone's not wearing a kilt. Final one from me. Do you think it's worked for him coming out against Keir Starmer? I mean, how would you balance, let's say you were giving strategic advice, do you think that in the end was a net positive or a net negative, just politically? Well, it's talking not just to Anas, but to other people in the Scottish Labour Party, they say has definitely worked in that it's much harder when they're meeting people who are just generally pissed off with life.

58:41They're not they find it harder just to blame the Labour government when they know that the guy that who's standing to be their first minister has come out. So I think it probably hasn't been positive. I sort of agree with you though at the time that I always I know you don't always get my football analogies but it's like it's like if a star player calls for the manager to go but the manager doesn't go the star player then has to have a relationship with that manager and I think that's the bit he underestimated maybe when he was talking about you know my first interest has to be Scotland well that's fine but Scotland is part of the United Kingdom Labour wants it to be part of the United Kingdom and it kind of does matter who the Prime Minister is the United Kingdom is and the First Minister of Scotland's relationship with the Prime Minister matters as well.

59:23But I think the one thing he's got, because he is such a kind of warm, empathetic character, I think if there was one politician on the landscape now who I could imagine breaking a bridge but then rebuilding the bridge in personal terms, I think he can probably do that.

59:40Rory Stewart:Good. Well, thank you, Alistair, for getting it. Very pleased to join it. And I think he's a really fascinating guy. And I thought thank you for getting to that. Okay. See you soon. See you soon, bye bye