In short
Johnny Mercer, former Conservative MP and Veterans Minister, explains how Westminster politics “breaks” politicians through performative rituals (e.g., PMQs), media incentives, and party management culture; he links this to Britain’s national-security readiness and argues the system fails veterans despite public rhetoric.
Guest backgrounds
Johnny Mercer served in the British Army Commandos as a terminal controller of indirect weapon systems; deployed to Afghanistan (2006–2009 and again in 2010). He later became an MP and Veterans Minister, focusing on veterans’ mental health and care. Hosts: Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart.
Key claims
Westminster rewards being “someone” via media moments rather than solving problems; politicians are pressured by whips/spads and often lack authenticity and moral courage. Veterans care suffered from “tokenism” and lack of concrete pathways. Senior officials sometimes gave contradictory assurances, implying dishonesty.
Notable examples
He says he helped create the UK’s first Office of Veterans Affairs, shifted veterans policy, and that the UK now spends £6.5bn/year on veterans. He describes “Op Courage” to route veterans through NHS mental-health pathways, and a case where he claims officials promised a Northern Ireland veterans legacy act without committing it to paper. He recounts being publicly sacked by Boris Johnson’s government and argues this shows “no way to run a country.”
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOJohnny Mercer's Military Experience
2:22 to 9:40
Johnny Mercer discusses his military background and motivations.
Reflections on Politics and Authority
9:40 to 14:00
Mercer shares his thoughts on the political system and authority dynamics.
“You spend a lot of time with the teams and that inevitably shapes your views around authorities.”
The Culture of Westminster and Politics
14:00 to 19:24
Explore how the culture of Westminster influences politicians and their actions.
“And I talk about that in the book as well.”
A Vision for Plymouth's Future
19:24 to 24:00
Discussing the future aspirations and challenges facing the city of Plymouth.
“So, Johnny, let's get to a little bit of a description of Plymouth.”
Engaging Communities in Politics
24:00 to 28:00
Understanding how to reconnect citizens with political processes and leadership.
“Again, you know, you as the Prime Minister of Plymouth, what would you want to do for a community like that over 10, 15 years?”
Navigating the Political Landscape
28:00 to 39:16
Explore the complexities of relationships in politics, particularly the challenges with Boris Johnson.
“And I've got to be honest, most people are in that boat.”
Childhood in a Cultish Environment
39:16 to 42:01
Discuss the impact of a strict upbringing and the implications of growing up in a constrained environment.
“And then when we come back, I want to talk to you about your childhood and in particular about mental health.”
The Impact of Childhood Upbringing
42:01 to 44:20
Explore how childhood experiences shape mental health and social behaviors.
“you know I've got an amazing wife and family now and so for me I've very much left it behind but that's certainly not the case with all my siblings and you know those effects can last a lifetime.”
Understanding OCD and Mental Health
44:20 to 48:26
Delve into the realities of living with OCD and the misconceptions surrounding it.
“It's essentially, you know, these compulsions to do rituals and behaviors to help you cope with pretty normal stuff.”
The Struggles of Mental Health Awareness
48:26 to 50:45
Discuss the challenges in addressing mental health and PTSD in society.
“Yeah, I feel proud of myself in moments when I get through it and I'm able to overcome serious challenges, whether it was in the military or whatever.”
Show all 19 chapters
Modern Warfare and Defence Strategies
50:45 to 55:06
Analyze the evolution of warfare and the current state of British defense.
“And yeah, people get upset with that point of view because, you know, people want to say they've got PTSD and they've had these experiences.”
The Challenge of Government Standards
55:06 to 56:00
Examine the disconnect between government actions and public expectations.
“And the country sees that, I'm afraid, and they think, you know what, you guys just don't really get it.”
Exploring the Impact of Veterans' Campaigns
56:00 to 1:02:36
The discussion highlights the complex issues surrounding veterans' treatment and historical accountability.
“And we are supremely fortunate and we've got an amazing country.”
Character and Structure in Politics
1:02:36 to 1:08:42
The conversation delves into the link between political structures and the character of politicians.
“So, Rory, my friend Johnny Mercer, as you used to call him.”
The Future of Political Systems
1:08:42 to 1:10:04
Discussing potential reforms to the political system and the importance of regional governance.
“Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.”
The Flaws of the House of Lords
1:10:04 to 1:10:44
Discussion on the inefficiencies of the House of Lords and regional governance.
“I think Sadiq in London has actually done a really good job.”
Insights from an Honest Interview
1:10:44 to 1:11:40
Reflecting on an interview where the guest shares personal experiences in Parliament.
“The headline was, Why do autocrats hate cities?”
Radical New Warfare Concepts
1:11:40 to 1:12:49
Exploring the need for military reform and the impact of modern technology.
“We didn't have much time to dig into that.”
AI's Role in the Future of Politics
1:12:49 to 1:13:47
Discussing the importance of AI in politics and a humorous anecdote about Brexit.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Thanks for listening to The Rest Is Politics. Sign up to The Rest Is Politics Plus to enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chatroom and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolitics.com. That's therestispolitics.com.
0:14Rory Stewart:Today we've got someone who I think we could say is pretty relevant to everything that's going on. We're about to interview Johnny Mercer, the former Conservative Member of Parliament, Cabinet Minister, Veterans Minister, former soldier. And why are we interviewing him? We're interviewing him because we have a new Prime Minister, Andy Burnham, who's fundamentally come in and said politics is broken. We need a new way of doing politics. And Johnny has been one of the most outspoken, powerful analysts of what he thinks is wrong about British politics, British Parliament, the way we conduct ourselves.
0:47Rory Stewart:But he's also someone who really understands the other big debate in British politics, which is around defence. Russia, Ukraine, how much we're spending on the military, how we protect ourselves. He's got an extraordinary backstory, which we'll get into. He's a remarkable person. But I think for listeners, two big things to think about, broken politics in Britain, and the question of what do we do about our national security. So welcome, Johnny. This episode is presented by IG. It's August, Parliament's in recess. Fund managers are on the beach or doing whatever fund managers do. But those of us who follow the news closely know the world doesn't stop shifting just because it's summer.
1:26Rory Stewart:As Alistar often reminds me when I emerge from some retreat. Geopolitics, central bank decisions, the markets, and goodness knows what else is going on all the time. And while August may definitely catch investors off guard, having their portfolios spread across multiple apps and accounts makes it even harder to stay on top of things. And that's where IG comes in. IG brings all your investing, trading, and funding together in one connected app. So you can move money, manage positions and act on opportunities without even switching platforms. Plus, IG charges no annual fees and zero commission on stocks, shares and ETFs.
2:02In essence, it's a more efficient platform that also costs you less. Download the IG app and get started. IG. Trade. Invest. Progress. Capital at risk. Other fees may apply.
2:22Rory Stewart:welcome to the rest of the spotlight leading with me alistair campbell and with me rory stewart johnny tell us a little bit about your time in the military how old were you when you joined the marines where you deployed the tough parts the fun parts give us a sort of summary of those that's that part of your life i know you're supposed to come out of a military career uh like mine and sort of be kind of slightly affected by it and full of regret and all the rest of it i've got to be honest with you that that's not my experience okay i had a wonderful time in the military i was incredibly lucky because i met some incredible people i wasn't in the royal marines uh because i didn't want to join the navy i joined the army commandos which is a similar sort of thing but i had a trade so my job was the terminal control of indirect weapon systems so you've got missiles and bombs and helicopters and jets and essentially you're trying to bring those effects to bear to nine times out of ten just kind of break a contact and get british troops out of contact i served in afghanistan in 2006 eight to nine and then 10 and had a really broad experience because i worked obviously at the teams level and then i did a tour attached to uh special forces where you know you're sort of working in a slightly more sensitive space and you know that's when i first came across politicians actually people like gordon brown and david cameron and william haig and ultimately that led me to where I am rather strangely but uh look for me it it was the people I feel obviously I've had this kind of cause and that burns on my soul around veterans care and that's not um something I ever thought for a minute would ever happen to me but the truth is you work with really special people who I think are you know in in the country today you you know the people are always in the news are tweeting about this or they're saying this or they have these views these people who get up every morning who are in their kit who go and serve the nation who go and do the unpopular operations whether it you know it's iraq or afghanistan and they do it because they believe in it right they believe in not necessarily the political direction and so on but they they believe in a set of values and standards and what life is all about i really loved being with them and i thought they're incredibly special people i saw them do absolutely extraordinary things um far braver and more stoic than I would have ever been, particularly when they were injured.
4:38I just had this thing in me that I was like, why don't we look after these people? I've seen them make choices that have got themselves hurt because they believe in what they're doing. And yet the country, whilst it talks good, you see there's another scientist where they talk a good game. And so it kind of made it worse because if you say you're going to do something you don't do, it's kind of worse than saying you weren't going to do it in the first place, right because you give them the false hope so we all do the kind of remembrance and all the rest of it we're like these guys are the best of us but when it comes to um actual real programs to help them there was nothing there and so that that's why i went into politics and you mentioned david cameron there i get the feeling that you like david cameron with was were inspired by david cameron he in a way is what made you think i want to go and help that guy but you you almost became like as i know you did the book shows you did loads and loads of work but you strikes me you became like virtually a single issue politician the veterans was kind of everything yeah maybe
5:37Rory Stewart:two issues johnny i mean the two things that come through your constituents and you care deeply about people in plymouth and what their interests are and you care deeply about veterans but those that seem to be the two themes really dominating the book yeah so i mean i think i had are slightly naive and still do and different view of politics to a lot of people for me it was so if you take the veterans issue for example essentially the the system wasn't working right because it's not like some people think that um you know primeness and so on over the years just don't care about veterans right and i don't accept that at all i i think that people do care but government becomes so busy and you're dealing with so many different things uh and it's incredibly hard to get things on the agenda as you found with you know environment issues and and all the rest of it that uh there was is tokenism is is too strong um but essentially the system wasn't working and i felt that it was my job as almost singularly to go in there and cause so much chaos on behalf of these people that people would actually look at this issue and change things so i never thought i had all the answers on veterans care i don't know what programs work best i know all the people who know the best programs, whether it's, you know, King's College or whatever.
6:48I never knew what was the best treatment for these people. What I knew is that it needed the political space and the priority allocated to it so that we could actually start to move away from that tokenism and don't we think these people great to actually setting up clear mental health pathways, clear access into treatment for those with complex prosthetic injuries and so on. And that was my role. And so for me, it wasn't about coming into politics. And, you know, I always found it weird, I don't know about you, but I found it weird someone would phone me up and go, Johnny, what do you think about this announcement on the Chinese economy?
7:21And I'd be like, I've absolutely no idea about that. And then, you know, but if you go into politics and you want to be someone, you're going to give them a comment. You're going to be like, right, well, actually, I think that they should do this or they should do that. And then you think nothing of it. The next day you're in the tea room, you're reading the newspaper, and there's a little comment by Johnny Mercer MP. He thinks the Chinese economy should do this. And suddenly you're becoming someone, right? You're in the papers. You're, wow, you know, I could be someone. And you kind of send a link to your dismal social media following and you're like, you're becoming someone, right?
7:52That wasn't the game for me. The game for me was like, I'm going to make you go, I'm going to rub your nose in it on this veterans issue until you do something about it. And look, I totally accept the criticism for that. I feel like, you know, I didn't really, you know, Roy, I didn't make friends there, right? But for me, that was, I took pleasure in that because I was trying to change it, right? I was trying to make it work for these people. Because you look at these guys that I talk about in my book who go and make a video for the mum and take their life, right? I make no apology for being ruthlessly in it for them and not for the others.
8:25And that's a decision I make and I have to take the criticism for that. But I honestly wouldn't change it.
8:31Rory Stewart:One of the things that is interesting, and I want to just sort of step back for a second, reflect on, and maybe it's your family background, maybe it's your character, maybe it's your military background. One of the things that's surprising is that you are, I mean, like you, I thought so much of Parliament was crazy nonsensical, right? You write very well about the fact that PMQs is a total fake nonsense where nobody's really asking questions. In fact, you go into much more detail. If somebody's a student of politics and wants to really get into the detail, Johnny does it very well. He literally explains that there's a guy called Gavin Williamson trying to hand out questions and literally writing the questions for you.
9:15Rory Stewart:And you ask the question that he's asked you to get, and then you get invited to the treasury drinks and then all this kind of stuff. So Johnny's very, very good on the mechanics of party management media. What's interesting, though, is that you didn't feel as you might have done about some of the bullshit in the army, right? You might have felt polishing my boots or ironing my trousers or doing something stupid the sergeant told me to do is just part of the business i'm not going to question every one of these things and actually some ex-military people in parliament do sort of take that attitude to the whips they sort of think well it's all nonsense but this is the game and i'll do what i told and get on with it you came in with quite a i mean more than me uh you know i was i was prepared to come home and say to shoshana this is crazy nonsense but sort of that seems to be the culture it seems to have riled you from day one you weren't prepared to look at it like a sergeant telling you to go and polish your boots again yeah i think that's fair i mean it's you know so it's this relationship with authority right and i've got to be honest rory um when when you join up you know what it's like as a a young person you join up and you have these people on pedestals and you go through afghanistan changed a lot of that for me right um because afghanistan was quite a unique experience so people like me the terminal controllers so so there's not many of you in the army it's a great job if you're not at war because you can go and um you go on exercise to america instead of sunny bridge and you know sit there in the sun if you're at war there's a certain number of you in theater at any one time and you are going to keep going back to that place and so So you spend a lot of time in combat.
10:55You spend a lot of time with the teams and that inevitably shapes your views around authorities. So there's definitely an element of that. But I honestly worry, and I talk about this in my book and I don't want to sound harsh, but I came to parliament and I was slightly taken aback as to the quality of the individual. and the way they conduct themselves on the day-to-day business, the way they make decisions, the way they speak about other people, the way they speak about their constituents and finding that the whole thing with states, like that PMQ thing is a very, very good example. You don't do well in PMQs by standing up and asking a question on an area of government policy because you know your constituents are waiting to hear it.
11:38You get marked well for getting a question, reading it out, delivering it with some gusto, making everyone laugh, getting some jeers from the opposition, sit down and you can all go to a tea room and say, you know, for me, that wasn't politics. And I couldn't lie about who I was. I couldn't come in there and think, yeah, I'm just going to play. I started if I'm more of a story because I took, you know, I looked at people like you and I looked at others and I thought, why am I, you know, why am I so kind of mateless? Why am I not getting on here? What am I doing wrong? And then, you know, when certain prime ministers came through, I thought about playing the game more.
12:11I voted for stuff I'm ashamed of now. But when that happens, the real moral gears inside me, I felt this sense of kind of shame. I was like, I'm not doing that. It's not me. So why didn't I sort of take the whip particularly seriously? Yeah, there was an element of that. I mean, you're asking me to come out of a specialist military unit where you know what they're like in those organizations and take seriously advice from Chris Pincher. I mean, I don't want to be unkind, Rory, but that is absurd. You're asking me to take political advice from spads who have just left university and never worked outside the political system, whereas I've gone and banged on almost 30 ,000 doors in Plymouth.
12:52I know that life is really bloody hard for a lot of them, and this is what they care about. For me, the lack of authenticity, I just found incredibly difficult. I'm well open, and I should be open to criticism. People are welcome to criticize me because I realize that I did it in the way that other people don't do it and I can be accused of being naive and idealistic and all the rest of it but uh for me you know it comes back to the biggest challenge is the quality of people we get in politics because they're making like clear decisions for example when we elected Liz Truss right people make clear decisions of their interest over the national interest they knew they knew what she was going to be like but they were like she's going to make me a minister and i've i wasn't used to spending my life with people who got that decision the wrong way around right they would genuinely have the kind of values to think i know this isn't going to work i'm going to put my hand up and say i'm not happy with this you know moral courage and all the rest of it they talk about in the military i'm not a saint or a prophet i'm not like my i have done some seriously bad things right but for me there's like basic things you have to get right when it comes to more courage i thought you were you had a very good two-word description of list drafting it was reliably stupid you're quite harsh about your colleagues i think some of them won't like this book but what's interesting about even those you say both in the when you're in the military and then when you get into the mod you're very you're always challenging you're always challenging a culture which is yeah a good thing but you do manage to have good relations like you and cameron clearly had a pretty good relationship you had a lot of respect for teresa may even though she stitched you up on veterans as well you were quite close to boris johnson you've you paint a very interesting portrayal of johnson you i was really shocked i think i texted you you i was really shocked that you were the day there with him on the day that he yeah left office yeah and i thought what's he doing there alongside this charlatan so you can maybe talk to that i remember you guys went mad at me actually for not asking the first pmq that day and asking when he was going to leave office do you remember when i had that pm key yeah we're always nodding um look i think um firstly i don't think it's the book is like a a drive-by my colleagues at all i think it's not but it's interesting you go through you go through very well-known people good there are extremely good people who enter politics who um and i'd never met anyone who went in there with a bad intention the truth is whitehall and westminster do something to people and and that's what we need to try and understand this culture that we've created of which there are many players And the media is a big part of that.
15:21And I talk about that in the book as well. They'd like to say, I think they're completely blameless, but I don't subscribe to that. Obviously, we are responsible as elected politicians for who we elect and electing people like Liz Truss, knowing that it was going to be bad for the country. But I think there's lots of people who have a role in this who would like to think of themselves as blameless. but i think you've seen with jeremy corbyn in the labor party and others in the tories you know these parties can be pretty elastic right there's people getting kicked out now gavin barwell for you know for his stance and so on for me i you know and for better or worse it was about the person i said yes i did like david cameron i i i have huge respect for him uh he's obviously a very different background to me but i think you got the fundamentals right and i like the way i I know, you know, I know that this isn't a universally shared opinion around David Cameron, but I like things like when he was talking about prisoners getting voted.
16:14He's like, look, this is not going to happen on my watch. He was he had his own mind and he was going to force it through. And I thought that was our job as politicians was to go and fight for people, right, to make the machine work. That's what I was doing on veterans or whether it's around addiction services in Plymouth. You're not there to make friends. You're not there so that people think this guy's got an amazing background. He's got a deep story. He's a real thinker. It doesn't work like that. That's not politics for me, certainly. And, you know, for me, it was far more important to have a set of values and ethos and standards that you're making these decisions based on.
16:48You get all these fast decisions every day, particularly as prime ministers, I've seen a number of times. And you have to have a clear set of beliefs. What do you believe in? and the trouble is when i was there the kind of people who didn't believe in anything at all their numbers just overwhelmed us in the end so particularly when rory and his cohort left that imbalance created a very difficult and unpleasant environment and and extraordinary in some ways but all of those put cameron and probably soon act to one side but the rest of them in some way completely stitched you up over veterans i don't accept they stitch me up because Because I don't think there's bad people.
17:24Or let you down. They let you down. Yeah, but I don't think they're bad people. I think that whenever you're fighting for something in politics, it's about creating the space. If you remember back to the Brexit years and all those horrific debates late into the evening, and you would see, you know, I always used to feel slightly embarrassed when I'd see the kind of Brexiteers all marching. They put their top hats on, they marched down to number 10, and they asked for the latest kind of ridiculous demand out of Theresa May. And I actually learned from that, because although in normal day-to-day conservative party under Cameron, these were slightly fringe figures, okay, they were now dominating the debate.
17:59And I saw what they were doing and I was like, I need to do that for veterans. That's what I need to do. I need to create as much carnage as I possibly can so that I get a seat at the table to change what they're doing. Because they don't make conscious decisions we're not going to look after veterans. It's like Tony and yourself in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland prosecution and so on. People don't make negative decisions about them. The problem is politics is incredibly busy. You can have an agenda one day, we're going to talk about AI today. Next thing comes in, you know, record numbers coming over the channel.
18:28You're going to talk about immigration for the next week. And what you have to do is create that space for the communities that you're trying to represent, in my case, veterans, and make that happen. So did I think they were negative on it? No. I think I got really frustrated with people saying things and they're not doing them. I totally accept that. And some of my behavior was not good, right? I mean, I was very brash with Northern Ireland secretaries. Honestly, in the end, we got there. So do I have regrets? Yeah, I have regrets that I made mistakes and, you know, I didn't really have any friends.
19:02But in the end, I achieved my objectives, right? And that I brought in legislation to end the prosecution of Northern Ireland soldiers. I set up the UK's first Office of Veterans Affairs. We now spend£6.5 billion a year on veterans. I don't want to go through a tribute act, but I fundamentally shifted the dial on the way this country thinks about veterans. And so it's hard for me to feel regretful. you know?
19:25Rory Stewart:So, Johnny, let's get to a little bit of a description of Plymouth. I mean, I think we talk a lot about local democracy. We've got a new prime minister coming in who's really interested in the idea that, which I think he'd share with you, that there's too much power in Westminster, too centralized. And he's really felt that he has understood politics much more by being based in Manchester. It's resonated with him much more. He can relate to people much more. He's got this lovely sense in his book that Andy Burnham says when he gets off the train and his whole chest expands, this huge relief being like, tell us a little bit about Plymouth.
19:58Rory Stewart:Tell us about your sense of the place, what's good about it, what's challenging about it. And let's imagine I made you the prime minister of Plymouth. What would you want it to be in 10, 15 years time? What's a really positive vision for people that would really give a sense that that was the kind person you believed in so i i first went down to plymouth uh as a teenager when i joined the military and i wanted to go to this specific unit in plymouth called 29 commander which is a very small regiment there's hardly any places there and i was very keen that's where i wanted to be and i don't know what it was about the place that really kind of wrapped its fingers around me but i remember walking to that camp citadel on the hill in plymouth and looking out over plymouth and the and for the first time really since i was a very small boy i felt like i had come home like these people were like me and it's quite hard i mean you you've written a book about this about cumbria it's quite hard to really uh put out there why these places really grip you and resonate with you i think in some ways it's because they reflect your character right so in in plymouth yes there's a strong military hue but it's this uh physically it's an amazing place you've got you know the ocean is very different down there you've got the moors behind you they are really good honest straightforward people right they don't you know traditionally in the past michael foot was the mp in my seat down there and um you know they've they've generally been pigeonholed i felt in plymouth as slight sort of underachievers not quite sure what's what's what's sort of good for them and and and things are always going to be the same i i felt and i'm afraid you know um i did feel that was kind of um reinforced if you like by certain policies uh under the labor government particularly around uh welfare where i had people leaving my regiment as corporals you know which is not a a terrible rank okay and going and and they wouldn't have a job 12 months later because they had three kids and they had a better life on benefits and i saw what that was doing not just to you know forget the the stigma of being on benefits but like to their kids not seeing their let parents have a job and so on.
22:06I just thought this is, you know, the impact that had on poverty and on children in Plymouth particularly gripped me. I think that it's an extremely kind of hardy place, right? So it's dealt with a lot. It's a long way from London. It's never really had that kind of focus that you would like it to have. It kind of has the military there. And so government, I think, has traditionally thought, look, we give them all this work. We're just not going to pay a lot of attention to the other stuff. Whereas really that military footprint has reduced a lot and been replaced by kind of small and medium-sized enterprises and normal families, right, who struggle with the everyday that normal families have in this country, whether they rely on decent social housing, whether they rely on decent public services.
22:49You know, I've always had this impression, Roy, you know, people like us in the studio in particular are pretty fortunate when it comes to the government. We see the government, we try and pay us you know tax and then hope they just leave us alone right we don't want anything to do with it for people in Plymouth government is a big deal right because they're heavy users of the NHS they're heavy on social care they need addiction services to be run properly they need the local budget to be run properly and I guess I saw in that the way that veteran services weren't being run and the impact that had on my cohort and what that was having on Plymouth and the two kind of docs I also look I had a pretty tough time I think like everybody following Afghanistan and the natural beauty of Plymouth certainly bought me a degree of peace that I don't think
23:33Rory Stewart:I would have got elsewhere. Johnny, let me just push into Plymouth's future a bit. So this is very live. I mean, these coastal communities, of course, you know, it's what Nigel Farage represents, the coastal community. And if you were talking about Britain and a lot of the political problems, people would often say the problem actually is exactly places like Plymouth that feel left behind, feel marginalized, feel they're not properly represented in Westminster. So what's the positive vision for them? Again, you know, you as the Prime Minister of Plymouth, what would you want to do for a community like that over 10, 15 years?
24:06Rory Stewart:So the people re-engaged again? Yeah, I think the number one thing actually, Rory's leadership, because you go out and you talk to people about politics as I did. And look, the way I got elected, Rory, was quite straightforward in a way. I became a candidate in the Conservative Party. I went for Plymouth. No one wanted me to stand in Plymouth because Michael Foote was there and they sort of said to me, you know, that's the way they vote. You know what it was like on the list. You're either in or you're out. And I was like, look, I've no interest in standing anywhere else. I didn't understand why someone would stand where they didn't have a tie to.
24:39And I thought the only way of getting in, I literally looked at the figures and realised that less and less people were engaged and less and less people were voting. And the problem with that is that you get the same kind of concentration of people voting in a certain way, but then most people are just disengaged from it, right? And they get their politics on one level. They're incredibly busy. They've got two naughty children who won't go to school. They don't listen to Today program. They don't listen to your podcast. And they are just, every touch point for them with politics is kind of bad, right?
25:10It's around a scandal. It's around something that hasn't worked. and what i thought with felicity my wife and it was her idea and she's obviously a lot better at this than me but i was like look we are just going to go and bang on every single door we're not going to have a massive political message about change about cameron about we're just going to be like look i'm a local guy this is what i believe in right the military plymouth veterans right i'm going to stand at the election i'd love you to come out and vote for me i didn't even take a voter intention i didn't take a single voter intention boy because i thought that if some If they saw a normal person doing this and being like, yeah, he's a good guy and he's clearly in it for the right reasons, whatever I voted for politically before, I'm going to vote for him.
25:49So it comes back in answer to your question. What are people looking for? They're not looking for a kind of new political way of thinking or theory that is going to, you know, citizens assemblies and so on that's going to shake the whole thing down. They want really basic stuff, but we've been unable to provide that, right? Whether it's standards in public life, whether it's people that are going to actually do what they say, right? So if you say you're not going to vote on HS2 until you've got a clear route to a rail line down to Plymouth, actually do that. The problem is you get people going to Westminster and they get sort of drunk in the culture of Westminster.
26:20And suddenly they're voting for this mad stuff that's going to have a profound impact on their constituency. And that is what turns people off. So what I'd like to do is really engage people and show them that politics is important, right? It matters that you have competent people in there who are able to run a budget so you don't cut addiction services, so you don't see the homeless on the street, so there's no hope in Plymouth. the messing about in politics the circus it is not a consequence-free pastime it is for the people who are in politics because we just want to pay our tax and hope the government leaves us alone for other people who need whose son has gone to plymouth and they need good addiction services or the heavy use of the initial social care it really matters and we have really really pissed them off so i'd like to share i wouldn't go in with a big theory of we're going to have um citizens assemblies this is the way we're going to run it i just go and like try and provide some leadership to political and public life and kind of set the example that you would like to follow i know that's not you know the kind of key policy issue that i know you're interested in rory and you know kind of scholars of politics are but i don't think we need to throw the baby out of the bathwater i think it's more simple than that it's about the quality of people we get into politics the attraction of it i mean who on earth would go into politics now right who's attracted to politics it is literally show business for ugly people right you can get in there you can see your comments in the paper, you can suddenly think you're becoming someone.
27:43Really, those are the people who shouldn't be anywhere near politics, right? You should have these people who come in and who are absolutely committed to fighting the system to make it work for those who really need government every day. That's what I would do in Plymouth. I'm not particularly tribal, I'll be honest with you. I've never, you know, I never voted before as an MP. And I've got to be honest, most people are in that boat. They just want basic good stuff done properly. They want you to do what you say you're going to do and these things are not that difficult that's how i got elected rory i went around i knocked on these doors i knew nothing about the tory party well i knew nothing about politics for me it was like a source of comedy you know all these scandals all the time all these skits on the tv but they voted for me they voted for me in record numbers by the end so john let me just jump in there because you talk about the quality of people i'll go back to what i asked you earlier boris johnson is a truly awful human being and he became prime minister Liz Truss, as you say, terrible, utterly unseated to be prime minister.
28:40A lot of what your complaints you're making about politics are actually, they do chime with what Andy Burnham has been saying and what he's going to try hopefully to fix. But I still want to get back to this thing because in the end, you know, relationships are part of life, they're part of politics. I still can't quite understand the nature of that relationship you had with Boris Johnson because I see you as somebody who's really big on truth, really big on moral character, really big on moral courage and the guy just offended all those things all the time so was it just you trying to be nice to somebody who was in trouble what was that i mean which bit my relationship went up and down right yeah this guy sacked me um you know and the fact that it you know you have a very interesting account in the book where johnson's due to come to do a visit in your constituency and he just literally cancels at the last minute because he can't be asked you then as you say he misleads you or he certainly disappoints you on the veterans thing eventually when he's in trouble needs you gives you this job and then when he's finally bites the dust you're standing there behind him clapping him out so i think um ultimately these these people are human beings as well right and uh we're all fallible yes i mean there were plenty of moments
29:53Rory Stewart:where i just wanted to rip boris johnson's head off yeah i mean my he came down uh you know throughout his campaign i've never spoken to anybody about jobs i've spoken to about causes so i i got to sign the veterans pledge he was coming down to plymouth just before and that was one of the lowest times actually was when um because plymouth doesn't get visits like that we're miles from london he was coming down he's going to be the next prime minister a big event it wasn't so much the event right but my kids were really pleased i'm meeting him they bought new dresses my girls and stuff i'm ready to meet him and then literally he cancelled that morning right you obviously don't do that i've never done that to anybody i would never do that so there's times where I absolutely want to rip his head off but I feel you know Rory would probably disagree with this but I think our politics are broadly you know not a million miles apart right but when when Boris came in Rory made a clear decision that he was going nowhere near this guy and that this was his view on him and he wasn't going anywhere I had a lot of sympathy for that right but the way I saw it was that in that moment right I could have I could do that I could leave him and um you know and ever you know most of what rory says about him is is true in terms of his personal character and so on but the way i saw it was my job as a politician right was to go there and to force through this fucking change right and make it happen and just you know come what may i i had to be friends with them or not friends with them i you know because there were people out there who every day that there's not a clear mental health care pathway for veterans right is you know is it matters and so i could have yes gone do you know what i'm not serving with this guy he does not share my values i'm going nowhere but i thought my role was to be like do you know what johnny you're you're really lucky okay you've become an mp it's it's ridiculous frankly you never went to university you know you suddenly become a minister you are in this incredibly privileged position right go and use it and cause chaos and get this northern island veterans thing on the agenda get this veterans thing on the agenda and move the dial on it right and yes you're going to get churned out in the process because Boris will inevitably let you down.
31:52And he ended up sacking me. But honestly, I thought that was my role. And, you know, I didn't really care the damage that did to myself. And that's a different way of thinking about politics. And I respect that. And you need people like Rory in politics who are going to be like, you know, I'm not doing that. For me, you kind of have to deal with the realities of the situation. And I felt like, yes, you know, is this guy the greatest thing since sliced bread? I mean, you don't need a brain the size of Rory's to work out that this, you know, wasn't going to be an easy thing but i honestly in that time i made a decision that i was going to try and shape a boris johnson premiership rather than anything else that was coming down the line uh even though i was much more politically attracted to people like rory um but that's a different way of doing politics i thought the whole time i was there was an incredible kind of imposter syndrome um and i was i was going to blow the doors off while i had it because it was all going to be over you also you say that he sacked you but actually the account of the second is just you talk about no way to run a country he phones you up and says what's going on johnny i've heard on the tv i've sacked you i haven't sacked you what's going on yeah it's pretty funny who are you sacked by the chief whip well in the end i mean you know the way these things work is just ridiculous i mean i think rory had his ejection by text as well i mean but i made a point of it right so i was called in by the chief whip and it comes back to what we're saying in the beginning like it's quite hard to go into a meeting and take seriously someone like chris pincher trying to sit you down and give you a bit of life advice you know you're like come on i mean
33:13Rory Stewart:where's the comedy camera so you go in and and he's the chief of it was like Boris wants you to leave the government and he didn't call him Boris the prime minister because they were you know if you say these things it makes you feel more grand right that you matter and you're dealing in massive states so the prime minister would like to like you to resign is what he said and I said look I'm not resigning because I'm going to see through this bill this is what it's committed to but I'm going to go I'm telling you now I'm going to go to the dispatch watch tomorrow as soon as this bill goes to the House of Laws, I'm going to say, yes, I am resigning because you've made very, very clear promises to this group of veterans from Northern Ireland.
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33:51I've reminded you about them time and again. You've committed time and again to do it. And the line is drawn next week, right, where these trials start. And I cannot be your veterans minister and do that. So I'm not going to make a big song and dance about it, but I'm just, I'm not going to be your veterans minister and I'm going to Northern Ireland to support them instead. And he said, well, you're going to have to resign. I said, well, no, resigning is something you have to do, right? You have to make a positive action. I'm going to resign. And I can tell you now, like that is not going to happen.
34:18So where do we go from here? I said, and I made it easy for him. I said, to be honest, Mark, if you want me to go and look me in the eye and tell me you're sacked. Say, Johnny, you are sacked. And I'll be like, no problem. You're the chief whip. Off we go. And he looked me in the eye and then he couldn't, he looked at the ground. I was smiling at him, making it easy for him. He just looked at the ground like this. Okay. Okay. See you tomorrow. anyway so i walk out right out the wits office start going down that little side entrance and i get a text from felicity and she goes it's on sky you just got sky news alert you've been sacked i'm like what no i haven't i'm just anyway so you come out the side entrance to the house of commons this is the only bit that did piss me off because it's quite vindictive was on the side entrances right there's no one ever there but they'd set up like a camera and a sky news guy to like literally capture my reactions i was sacked and then my phone went again and it was chief whip to be clear you've been sacked right i was a bit cross at this point right and i have many failings and one of them is that i i get a bit pissed off when people treat me like that right because i work pretty hard not to treat people like that so i go back to the flat i'm sat there i'm like oh god you know public sacking here we go phone rings boris and uh he's literally like shouting from the office no like hi how are you it's like johnny what the fuck is going on it's come up on my tv you've been sacked what's all this about i was like yeah you've just sacked me boris he goes oh i haven't sacked you what's happened here i remember saying that you know and i did use the effort i was like boris you are the fucking prime minister right you i have now left your government i have been sacked i'm you know i was like oh i'm so sorry and i just thought like i mean it is no way to run a country right and and you know that the way these processes work i mean we'll all laugh about it now right but if you then cascade that down to people who really need to get shit done for them because they need an addiction service in plymouth it's not actually that funny because this shit matters you also said this was a place where nobody was telling the truth yeah that's a big big statement to make no they didn't they didn't and you know uh there's i provide clear examples of that in the book where of course you know they don't 100 % lie the entire time.
36:25I mean, that would be quite an achievement. But essentially, you can have really big integrity conversations like Northern Ireland Secretary, have you started the work on this legacy act that we've been promising these Northern Ireland veterans who are protesting outside? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Go to see the permanent Secretary of Northern Ireland Office. No, not a single word has been committed to paper. And you're then presented with two different things that can't equally be true okay and that happened time and time and time again i remember when i was you know there's a spike in veteran suicide and i was determined to get out there and i'd created this thing called op courage right where basically i pulled together all these different mental health care pathways into one pathway through the nhs you can now go to any doctor or hospital in the country okay you can say you're a veteran and you'll get on a veteran specific program i wanted to go out and talk about this because there was a bit of a spike in in veteran suicide now i made a point you know it's probably one of my weak obsessions but uh i made a point of meeting all the next of kin of those who took their lives during a certain calendar year because i found it was my personal responsibility right as veterans minister if they were then killing themselves saying they did not know where they could go then that was my that that was on me and i had to go out there and i had to paint the town red and make sure that it was not a credible option for a veteran to go i'm gonna i'm gonna take my own life because i don't know anything about help right part of that is you have to go out in the media you have to go on today program And I remember, you know, the head of communications at the time.
37:51I mean, six years earlier, he was dressed as a chicken, right? Running around trying to get quotes off David Cameron. Next thing, he's the lead communicator for the UK government. I mean, this is not serious stuff, right? And he'll say, no, you're not on the grid tomorrow. And I'll be like, I don't really care. I think it was actually at the time where boycott, it wasn't coming. Oh, sorry. Yeah, they boycotted everything. They're like, we're not talking to the media. I'm like, fine. That's fine for you, right? But I'm getting this message out there because these guys are killing themselves saying they don't know where the help is.
38:22I know where the help is. I'm going to tell them through the platform of the media. Really straightforward stuff. And I remember saying to him one day, look, can you tell me that Boris has told you specifically that I'm not today, program tomorrow? And he's like, yeah. He said it's me just now on the phone. Phone up Boris. You're like, hey, Boris, apparently you don't want me to go on today, program tomorrow. Don't be so ridiculous, Johnny. Get out there. Do this. This is brilliant stuff. you're then presented with two different things that cannot equally be true from very senior people. So somebody is lying, right?
38:50And we don't like to talk about lying in politics. It's all, oh, I misrepresented this, I misrepresented that. I mean, it's bullshit, right? Everyone knows, people know right from wrong. And yeah, for my sins, I had a zero tolerance approach to that. And people can and did and do laugh at me for it, but I think it matters. I don't think it's a game. I don't think it's a consequence to his sport. And I make, you know, I'm not even sorry for it. Okay, Rory, Johnny, we're going to take a quick break. And then when we come back, I want to talk to you about your childhood and in particular about mental health.
39:26Welcome back to The Restless Politics Leading with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alistair Campbell. So the reason why I think Rory says you're a sort of outspoken commentator on the nature of politics, You've written this book and the title kind of gives you the theme, No Way to Run a Country Having Been Through Government. But let's go right back to the beginning because, as Rory says, you've got quite a backstory. One of eight children growing up in what sounds to me like a very, very strange cult. Yeah, I mean, it's difficult because obviously my parents are still alive and there's still people involved in that.
39:59But look, I think, you know, there's a fair amount about it. In my first book, it was a pretty challenging way to grow up, I think. and lots of people have it so it's not unique to me but um yeah sort of cultish behavior i think is never uh never healthy and it certainly had a profound impact on my family and it you know and i suppose my life as well so yeah i think any of these environments where you're um insulated and isolated from the reality of growing up in britain today is unhealthy and that's certainly the case for me and when we use the word cult what do we mean so i mean it's it's very sort of constrictive behavior right so you don't have television at home which you know probably think is a good thing but no pop music you know you wear the same clothes and everything is around a kind of old testament derivation if you like of god and and behaving in that way and uh look it's it just creates an extremely false environment which means then when you leave it as people inevitably do as they grow up and you know for me and my brothers we went into the military it's a pretty
41:00Rory Stewart:you know it's a pretty tough time just to understand how your parents arrived there so they were very strict baptists that this was a very strict christian upbringing was that something they got from their own grandparents what what was the the family story i think so and this is this is this is the issue with all these things and why it's hard to feel bitter and angry about these things that we're all products of our upbringing we're all products of where we come from and you know this is the way they grew up and obviously the world was very different when they were growing up as well you didn't have the internet and all this ability to kind of interrelate if you like with people from different backgrounds and different areas and so you know you kind of get given this stuff when you're very in your formative years as children and you know there wasn't the ability to question it that we have now and consequently you know unacceptable behaviors become acceptable and that's where the problems start and so you know it's it is deeply painful I feel fortunate compared to a lot of my siblings because I ended up going to the military as a teenager and had some pretty interesting experiences there and then I've been able to you know I've got an amazing wife and family now and so for me I've very much left it behind but that's certainly not the case with all my siblings and you know those effects can last a lifetime.
42:15Rory Stewart:The positive side of this or maybe that's the wrong way of looking at it I mean from the answer that. I've got no idea at all what it was like growing up. But if you were to say quickly to people that you didn't have television, you had quite a simple life, some people might think that's quite a good foundation for childhood. So why doesn't it quite work as a way of bringing up kids? Because, you know, we're all worried about social media at the moment. We're all worried about our kids getting overwhelmed by the modern world. Why does it not quite work to go to the extreme in the other direction?
42:45Yeah, I mean, there's two things. I mean, one side of it, on the face of it, sometimes these things taken in isolation perhaps aren't so bad, reducing exposure to that sort of thing. The problem is that that increases a fairly sort of insular world where unacceptable behaviours around things like violence become normalised. And the problem is with creating a world that is so different to the real world when you go out and get a job and grow up and have a family and all the rest of it, is that inevitably these baked in behaviours from when you were you know five eight twelve fifteen it really challenges your your worldview you know it's quite a difficult thing growing up anyway uh makes that even harder and the problem is i think the effects are more profound the later it goes in life so i think as a child you're quite resilient as a teenager you're quite resilient in your 20s you know you're getting on with it you hope or certainly i hoped that uh these effects would would wear off as time went on and i don't think it works like that i think that any sort of abuse doesn't work like that you know so it's not these kind of standalone things there's nothing wrong with not having a tv there's nothing wrong with not playing pop music um there's nothing wrong with you know everyone wearing the same clothes per se but the environment it creates is very very fake so that when you then go into the real world and you have to get a job and have a relationship and get on with everybody else you know not not allowed to have friends who didn't believe in the same things your family believed in is i think you know pretty unhealthy and you can see you can see that the world over every single day so that's why i think it's unhealthy one of the most powerful sections in your book is actually when you write about your own mental health and i listen you and i've talked a lot about mental health in the past but and i know you've had this pretty chronic ocd but i reading it it's one of the most powerful things i've ever read about ocd just tell listeners and viewers what that means to you because i think a lot of people you make the point a lot of people think it's about well i've got to have everything lined up my clothes have got to be like this i can't stand the plugs being on and off but yeah you're talking about something completely yeah i mean whenever i see people talking about acd like that it's quite frustrating because that's kind of cute fashionable thing to have right the reality it's like ptsd right the reality of having these mental health conditions is is horrific the truth is like it it drives every single piece of your behavior.
45:05It's essentially, you know, these compulsions to do rituals and behaviors to help you cope with pretty normal stuff. It comes from, you know, there's lots of arguments about where it comes from, but generally it's a kind of unstable upbringing where you don't, you know, you don't know the parameters of things, you know, you know, for example, you think you can, you know, catch things off the street. And I write about it in the book, how you can have completely irrational thoughts, but if you don't act on them, you will then have like a serious physical reaction to that around anxiety and things like that and it seems to me yours is a lot about blame you keep blaming yourself for things that aren't even happening it's a huge part of it and i saw this really depicted really well actually beginning of the year on on the bbc and a program called inside out i mean this is why i talk about it now i hate talking about it as you can tell um i find it quite humiliating but actually what i want these people to realize is that you're not on your own right and uh there's a lot of us out there who are kind of madder than you think and if we were slightly more judgmental less judgmental sorry slightly more empathetic to these conditions i think these people's lives would increase you know inorbitedly i think the number one thing that i've found over all of the years even when i've got the most amazing family and wife and loving relationships is this kind of intense sense of real isolation and loneliness and that's the reason i speak out about it um is because you know last the last time i spoke about it properly was about seven or eight years ago and this dad phoned me up i was in my mp's office and he said look i've just read this stuff about you in the evening standard my 16 year old boy's got this condition he will not talk to anyone about not me not the doctor he's read your piece he loves your story and he'd love to speak to you would you speak to him you'd be the first person to speak to him and i just don't want these people to be on their own because it is it's it's it's tough right it's really tough um but uh i i you know i do feel this compunction to show that you can keep up with everybody else and keep the show on the road and have a good life.
47:02Alistair, can I just come to you on this for a second?
47:04Rory Stewart:Because this tension that Johnny's talking about, you've been through a version of, which is he's saying, firstly, it's quite difficult if you're in public life talking openly about this. It can feel quite humiliating. Secondly, there's a strong sense of obligation that I need to talk about this. As Johnny says, some of us are madder than people think, and there's quite a lot of us out there, and it's very helpful for people. How did you personally go through thinking about being honest about your own mental health? And does what Johnny says resonate with you? Yeah, it does. I mean, I can feel how you don't, I can sense you don't like talking about it.
47:38Yeah, I've got sweaty hands. Yeah, I really like talking about it. Right. And I think that is because of my circumstances. When I first realised I had a really quite serious mental illness, it was very public, I had a psychotic breakdown, I was arrested and all that. and I was in working in newspapers and when I went back to work there was no point not talking about it and people were amazingly nice in the main okay and then once I realized I was quite good at communication profile and that sort of stuff I just thought I can move the dial here that's why I think what you've written here on OCD I think we'll move the dial and I and I I think as part of your dealing with it you should embrace that okay I'll try and do that a bit better I don't know why you feel this sense of shame, really.
48:23I don't feel shame at all. I feel really proud of going through it. Really? Yeah, I feel proud of myself in moments when I get through it and I'm able to overcome serious challenges, whether it was in the military or whatever. But the whole thing's like, it is humiliating having OCD. I was walking up here from Embankment and you walk through some wet water and the guy's basically watering the flowers. You think, oh, I've just walked through Pierce. Oh, no, I'm going to have to get some wet wipes, some antipacks and clean my feet before I meet Alistair. You know, last night I got about three hours sleep because I was worried the alarm wasn't going to go off and then I wouldn't be here.
48:56And no one sees that, right? If you're an OCD sufferer, no one sees that because you don't want to talk about it and you don't want other people to see it. And it is humiliating. Like I'm a 44-year-old guy. I've had a pretty good career and so on. And yet I'm still worried about walking in piss in London. And it's not worry, right? This is what people have to understand. It's not like, oh, I feel a bit unclean. I'm going to wipe this. It's literally like paralyzing fear in that you're going to catch something from that. you know you're going to get leprosy all over your face you're going to get outcasts from society you lose your wife and kids your job it's totally irrational but as you know that is mental health right i just wish we were slightly more kind of accepting of that in in a non-tokenistic way right so everyone wants to talk about mental health but actually when it comes to making provisions for it or actually understanding it it's a bit like veterans care in a way it's to a point right but beyond that it's still it's still pretty tough for people but that's why it's also so important that people do understand what it is rather than what it's not correct yeah and this kind of glamorizing of it really kind of upsets me in a way so it's like i'm afraid a lot of the veteran community have done with ptsd well i know people have got ptsd and it's a shocking condition that will totally uh paralyze your life uh infect every part of it and it's awful but i would say you know and it's extremely controversial point of view but you know the incidences of ptsd if you speak to the medical community remain roughly what they have been for many many years there hasn't been this explosion in in phthc that we've seen after iraq and afghanistan that has been diagnosed and i get frustrated with that because if you've got it you really really don't want it but i meet people who want to go and get a diagnosis of it um because it you know because it kind of brings them answers and so on and i just um i i think that's sad and we kind of need to regain it for for the genuine you know the the sufferers for whom it's their every day who don't sleep, who are up at two in the morning with their wife because something's gone off in the neighbourhood.
50:49And yeah, people get upset with that point of view because, you know, people want to say they've got PTSD and they've had these experiences. That's fine. But I've always been in it and been in this sport for those who, you know, the guys who are really suffering on the margins when no one's watching. You know, I kind of make no apology for that. And that's what I did in my veterans work. That's what I've always done. And of course, you'll get critics for that.
51:10Rory Stewart:Johnny, defence, Ukraine, Russia. So putting on your sexual state for defence hat, or thinking about the big issues, how would you communicate to the public about what kind of threat Russia poses, what you saw on the ground in Ukraine, and what Britain should be doing about its defence? Yeah, and maybe just to add to that, Johnny, what specifically, because you know the department, what specific advice would you give to West Streeting, who's literally starting right now as Defence Secretary? Look, I think defence in this country is obviously in a deeply challenging place. I think that we've got unique factors that are pulling it apart.
51:47We've got a deeply historical view of this stuff, whereas the character and nature of modern warfare has completely changed. So I spent a lot of time in Ukraine setting up their veterans capability over the last 18 months. The injuries and the kind of method of warfare and what we call the TTPs, tactics techniques and procedures are totally different you've basically had a navy in the russian navy in the black sea destroyed by ukraine which does not have a navy right and yet we are still fixated on the fact that we can't get these ships out of dock and so on and so forth and whilst that is a problem and a real problem you know when it comes down to combat power and what we're able to actually generate to shift the dial we're not even in the ballpark of talking about things that really matter.
52:31So for example, you know, stuff I'm interested in now is like the sovereignty of AI, right? And the way that Trump, for example, can literally just say on national security grounds, this model is not going to market, right? If you've built your entire targeting system or your NHS or public services on that stack, on that AI stack, you're in real trouble. And that is, that is strength and power now. It's not about this, the conventional wars of the past. And the The winners are going to be those that are humble enough to adapt to it, who are quick enough and agile enough. Like Ukraine? And that's the problem we're not.
53:06So you go to Ukraine, right? And I'm meeting these amazing people because they are forced to be agile and they are forced to think in terms of technology. It's a race. It's almost like an industrial race, if you like. And it's built into every aspect of their society. So I love being out there. You know, young people, hungry. you know a lot of us don't realize how lucky we are in this country obviously we talk about a lot of problems there are a lot of problems right but you go and talk to some veterans in ukraine and those who are who are at the front line of this and uh life is is is really you know pretty bitter and um but they're young and they're going for it and they're ambitious and they're enthusiastic and they're uh determined and i think they're incredible people i love their mindset you know in this country there's a big military mafia in this country right of people who think they're experts in the military and i take my hat off to them and i'm sure they all are right but in uh you know in ukraine it's different yeah they're young that the in my pot of shit the veterans piece they have to collaborate because the unmet need is so great right so you can't have different charities slagging off different charities slagging off the government right you have to force that through whereas in this country if you do one thing in defense you'll get five generals saying and doing the wrong thing.
54:20The kind of traditional territorial nature of the way we think about defense has to change. And you have to listen, I'm afraid, to people like Al Karns, who I know you're big fans of on this podcast. Al and I fought together 20 years ago for the first time in Afghanistan, 2006, 2008, 2009. You know, our family's gone holiday together and he is nowhere to be seen in this new government. You know, and whilst I wouldn't comment on the current government and where they are, that is the sort of thinking you need front and center. if we're going to you know the big thing the big thing in the book and talking you know in our conversation here there is a different set of standards and and what's important in the governing class compared to those who are governed so they may view al as like a disruptor who's not a team player doesn't get on with it but actually he's right on point around the challenges around defense but he won't even he won't get a look in right similarly we're happy to like recycle and reinforce bad behaviours and reward people who have had to leave office before because they've been caught doing unacceptable things and put them back in office.
55:24And the country sees that, I'm afraid, and they think, you know what, you guys just don't really get it. This is why we're in a tough position because there's basic, and it comes back to the basics that I was talking about that I went and knocked on doors in Plymouth. They're not really looking for new models of government. I agree with Dean Lucia, I think it's a great thing, right? But we don't need to throw the baby out of the bathwater. We're an incredible country with incredible people. And I saw this in Afghanistan, right? Young people fighting with me. You always had this when I was joining, you know, if you didn't lose a leg in the Falklands, you weren't worth talking to and all this rubbish, right?
55:55These are incredible young people. And I see it in the city every day where I'm working now in tech and AI. And we are supremely fortunate and we've got an amazing country. You don't need to throw the baby out of the bathwater. You need to get better people in politics, in government, if you have different standards in government than you have in the country, it is not going to work. And that has to end. My final question is a bit heavy, but I think the part of the book I found the most challenging was probably reading about your campaign for the Northern Ireland veterans and Afghan veterans as well.
56:30And, you know, I had a brother who served in Northern Ireland. I was obviously very closely involved in the Good goes on and I found probably the most moving part of the book was the story you tell of the guy who literally dies in a hotel room while he's going through this this process how do you get the balance right between the past is the past let's try and move on from this and maybe some soldiers did do things which are unacceptable even by the standards of a very tough military regime and how that relates both to Northern Ireland then and also to the inquiry that's still going on into Afghanistan.
57:11Rory Stewart:Sorry to interrupt, Johnny Alistair. For listeners, though, who aren't following this day to day, essentially, Johnny's caught here with a dilemma. On the one hand, what he's saying with Northern Ireland is that he thinks it's ridiculous and unjust to be pursuing 80-year-old people for allegations for what might have happened, for example, on Bloody Sunday in the early 70s. But he also, as minister, found himself caught up in allegations that war crimes had been committed by British forces in Afghanistan much, much more recently. And he's trying to deal with how do you, on the one hand, defend the honour of soldiers, say these are incredibly brave people who've paid the ultimate sacrifice, gone through trauma, we shouldn't be chasing them, which was his position on North Ireland and Iraq.
57:57Rory Stewart:And also saying that actually maybe something's happened in Afghanistan that is worth investigating. And the allegations are horrendous. They're essentially allegations of extrajudicial execution and torture. That's going through an investigation that I think was due last year, but it's still to report because I suspect that they are investigating allegations up to and including murder. Look, this is like a deeply painful and difficult space to talk about. I think they're very separate issues. Okay. In Northern Ireland, I think, you know, you can argue with the peace process, whatever happened, but what you have seen is, is, you know, an encouragement of those who are using violence as a means to achieve their political goals to then, you know, come into the state and, and, and get into politics like, like, like normal people, frankly.
58:50And, and, you know, make Northern Ireland a better place. I think, you know, and it's in the book where I spoke to you and, to Tony about it and so on. I don't think there was this understanding that then the levers of state would be used to kind of look at decisions that had already, you know, prosecutorial decisions and, you know, contested circumstances that are already being looked at a number of times and then view them through the lens of 2025 standards, right? And then think your behaviour is unacceptable. You're 80 years old. We're going to knock on your door and we're going to try and prosecute you.
59:23I think everyone would accept that that is morally wrong. Clearly, bad things happened in Northern Ireland. And I'm not, you know, people, I get the abuse every day for being defenders of war criminals and all this rubbish, right? The Afghanistan inquiry is different in that space. And it's very clear to me that we separate those two things, okay? The Afghanistan inquiry has to run its course. It's into incredibly serious allegations of a different magnitude to what I was trying to protect from. What I tried to protect from was this kind of industrial lawfare nature. You forget now, you know, in Iraq, you know, the Battle of Danny Boy in Iraq, there's a massive Al-Swedi inquiry after that.
1:00:01High court charge comes out and says, this is the product of reckless lies and speculation. Fine. But what has that done to the soldiers going through it? Whose kids are reading in their papers that their dad murdered someone in cold blood and tortured and abused them, right? Or for them getting jobs. Some people have had their lives totally ruined by this. And the senior military and political leaders never, ever said a word in their defense until I came along. That is the part of it that's disgraceful. Okay. Clearly, the behaviors that have been alleged in Afghanistan have to be investigated.
1:00:33And if they are true, yeah, it will be gut-wrenching. It will be a betrayal, which I don't know how I will cope because I spent 10 years of my life advocating for these people but that's life it's not about me and uh you have to um life is difficult and messy and politics is hard and it makes me incredibly sad and the inquiry makes me sad obviously i had a very difficult two days on the sand um and um it's it's a deeply personal you know because for some of us like afghan was our whole life right we would read the books we try and think about cancer insurgency we recognize that it's not going well how do you change it And now it's like, you speak to the parents of someone whose kid died in Afghanistan.
1:01:17It's shocking. They haven't changed their room since they left. Okay. They don't receive anything on the day they died. No one cares. And this is their child. Their one child. They had IVF to have this baby. They gave up everything. You know, they went on camping holidays so they could pay for his education. And now it's like he's been robbed from history. We've just got to think so much more deeply about what we do in the utility of force and the way we do the military and all the rest of it and i will always be their advocate only last night i was on the phone to one of the parents of uh someone who died in in afghanistan and they keep you know and i think they they come to me because i i get it but i i think we should all get it and it's my job to make people get it right this stuff matters these people matter well look it is a very very good book i it actually there's a lot of read across between this book and rory's book i think in terms of what's wrong with politics i think maybe rory's is you've tried to be a bit more uplifting at the end maybe rory was in in his but i think you said deeply personal it's a deeply personal book you're moderately nice about most both me and rory so you know that's fine but i think uh we all we all have our crosses to carry yeah i know you do but i i honestly i think on the mental health stuff on the veteran stuff i think and on the nature of politics.
1:02:32I think you've written a pretty remarkable book. So thank you for talking to us about it. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Johnny.
1:02:42Rory Stewart:So, Rory, my friend Johnny Mercer, as you used to call him. Look, I think Johnny is a genuinely extraordinary person. And I hope people listening take it seriously as a way of thinking about who members of Parliament are. Johnny's a very particular person. But actually, if you were to dig into quite a lot of members of Parliament, you would find some very, very interesting childhoods, very interesting experience in the world. He writes, for example, about Bob Stewart, who doesn't get a very good press. And when he writes about him, you see in the book how Bob Stewart actually had an extraordinary, strange formation in his life.
1:03:20Rory Stewart:Another Tory MP, former military. Former military guy, yeah. So I think that's the first thing, that Johnny's very, very good at bringing to life who a member of parliament could be warts and all and make you understand who these 650 people are composed of. I think it's also, I think he'd be the first to admit he is, like all of us, somebody of immense contradictions. And people listening to this will pick up on what some of those contradictions are and some contradictions that he talks about more openly and other contradictions he talks about less openly. You know, we talked about Boris Johnson, for example, where he's weighing up the fundamental question in politics, which is the kind of Machiavellian, listen, the end justifies the means, I've got to get the veterans things through.
1:04:06Rory Stewart:And if I have to hold my nose and work with Boris, that's okay, because I've got to get this thing done against another view that he has, which is very, very deep and equally held, which is why I think he's still struggling with it today, which is he cares deeply about truth. And even if he's not fully conscious of it, every anecdote he tells about Boris Johnson is Boris lying i mean obviously boris sacked him obviously boris said he shouldn't go on the today program and then he calls him and says exactly the opposite yeah no i think this thing about truth is really interesting because i got called a liar a lot and still do on social media and stuff but actually i think one of the reasons i found government so hard sometimes i do find that the the scale of truthlessness in some political figures i find it very very difficult to deal with my advice is always to people in trouble you know get as close as you possibly can to telling the truth all the time and i think politics would be a lot better if if that were the case and i know there'll be some journalists rolling their eyes at that but that in fact is is always what has driven me i got to know john he talks in the book about his kind of curious relationship with both of us it relates to mental health because i first really had anything to do with him i think he writes about this when i was going through a kind of manic episode and it was during covid and i mean fiona's very very used to this but i i'm and i was endlessly singing national anthems and changing the lyrics and i ended up going up to my study if you had to tell me to go calm down for god's sake and i went up to my study i put on a suit and tie i put on my brother's medals which is you know you just never wear other people's medals and i recorded myself singing this national anthem which was about how much boris johnson and dominic cummings loved each other i was clearly a bit unhinged at the time and it went clearly went absolutely crazy on social media and i remember then johnny mercer first i think on social media and then speaking to me saying this is just outrageous and of course i then just dig in even more you know what the fuck do you know everybody in the military says you're a wanker and all this sort of just terrible stuff right and eventually it was a former colleague of mine who phoned me up and said Alistair I don't know what's going on but can you calm down you this is bad and then of course I had a massive crash but what was interesting then we got to talk to each other and that's why I did I do think he's a friend I mean it's somebody that we've you know I've been swinging the sea with him and and then of course during I he's talked about not being tribal during the last election he He attacked Fred Thomas, who was the Labour candidate that was trying to oust him and essentially was saying this guy talks too much about his own military record.
1:06:45And I think he says in the book, I persuaded you to have a go as well because I am tribal when it comes to something like an election. But even something like that, he's saying, come on, mate, what the fuck are you doing this for? As opposed to I'm never going to talk to you again.
1:06:58Rory Stewart:One of the lovely things about Johnny is exactly that. He's incredibly, I don't quote forgiving, but he's very, very, very good in a kind of way that should inspire us all about reaching out and having a meal or having a drink. Even when somebody said something pretty unforgivable about him, he's prepared to sit down and talk it through and be honest about where he got it wrong and where you got it wrong. He's wonderfully self-reflective. You're completely right. I mean, I got really, really, really cross with him. And he mentions this, that there was this extraordinary moment that everybody was watching when Boris Johnson was collapsing.
1:07:34Rory Stewart:And finally, we were going to get rid of this terrible human being in charlatan. And Johnny got the first question at PMQs. And I was like, this is the moment. Speak for England, Johnny. Take him down. Because, you know, Boris was literally on the edge. and Johnny instead asked the question about veterans and then was put into the cabinet as the kind of sexual state for veterans and I was so disappointed and of course a lot of what's going on here is Johnny and I relitigating this sort of impossible question for him which is how does he weigh up what he wanted to get done with veterans because I'd made the opposite decision right?
1:08:13Rory Stewart:There's a reasonable case that if I'd accepted Boris Johnson's offer to stay in the cabinet, remain as international development secretary, maybe I would have been able to use my position to save the 0.7%, save DFID as an independent department and use my political capital to do that. And I decided I couldn't serve in his cabinet, right? So I guess we're all scratching similar things. Let's just get on to the substantial point though, which I think is interesting. He says the system's fine. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You know, he makes jokes about citizens' assemblies. I think he'd probably be the same on proportional representation and changing parties and changing parliament.
1:08:53Rory Stewart:I'm not sure I agree. I think that there is a link between the structures of our politics, the way the voting system works, the way the parties work, the way the incentives work, and the kind of characters that emerge. He's hoping that we could just get better people into parliament with better moral characters. My sense is that he's more right when he says actually many of these people were pretty good individuals before they entered Parliament. And something about entering the political system makes them into pretty unreliable, dodgy figures. And that must be about the system and the structure.
1:09:27Rory Stewart:And I've got to believe the only way of dealing with that is to try to change the system rather than just hope for better people. Yeah. Well, I agree with that. And one of the things I'm, I don't know whether I'm hopeful or optimistic, probably hopeful rather than optimistic. I actually think that some of the ideas that Andy Burnham and Steve Rotherham wrote about in their book, I think if they follow through on some of those, it could be transformative. But I think it could be so hard to do. You know, regional, get rid of the House of Lords, replace it with regions in the nations, perhaps linked to a PR list system of some kind.
1:09:57You know, that's a big change. you know when we when i was we were on the way here and i johnny and i met for a cup of coffee and and he was saying you know well you know first of all why did you never stand but then why didn't you ever go in the house of lords and i was saying i would never ever ever go in the house of lords because it plays a total joke and we've got to get rid of it and replace it with something better and i think likewise on on the regions in a way what andy burnham has showed in manchester and other mayors andy street i mean he lost but he did a good job steve rotherham Tracy Brabe in New Yorkshire.
1:10:28I think Sadiq in London has actually done a really good job. Mayors have shown that if you give new systems to places, they can really develop in a different way that the current political system wasn't allowing them to. And, you know, I was reading a fascinating piece in Foreign Affairs magazine last night. The headline was, Why do autocrats hate cities? And, of course, it was about Trump. Cities are unbelievably important to success. I actually think the idea of maybe Devon rather than Plymouth, maybe a private or a private or a private or a private or a private or a private or a private or a private or a private or a private or a private or a private or a private or a private or a private or private or private.
1:11:01But listen, what I loved about the interview was I do think he's a very honest guy. I think he's and I worry that that maybe is why he did end up, as he calls it, friendless in Parliament. Well, it does give a very moving account, Rory, when literally when you were friendless because you were sort of, you know, refusing to do this, that and the other. And you walked into the tea room and people were sort of giving you the cold shoulder. And Johnny says he came over and says, let's sit down and have dinner. It's absolutely true.
1:11:30Rory Stewart:It's a very, I mean, I'm very grateful for that. And it's a very honest book. There's nothing in the book which I read and say, no, my memory of it's different from that. I thought one of the most interesting things he was saying was his radicalism on the new way of warfare. We didn't have much time to dig into that. What he's saying there, which is basically that our entire military is fighting the wrong war, our ships, our complete navy may be completely maldesigned and almost unnecessary, that you need to be incredibly radical, drones, AI, etc. That someone like Al Kahn's represents that disruptive vision of what it could be.
1:12:11Rory Stewart:I actually think that's where Johnny's heart really is. And if one could harness that radicalism, which he's so good at when he's talking about defense, and apply it to domestic stuff, I think it could be extraordinary. Again, I suspect when he's saying, well, just things need to just be run a bit better. I mean, basically what he's saying in Plymouth is we need better leadership, better running, let's just get the social services running well, get the NHS running well, so it's just a management task when he gets into something he really has been inside for 10 12 years like the military he's actually much more radical than that he understands the whole system and structure needs to be rebalanced and i think that's probably true domestically as well as in defense well he did tell me on the way roy that he'd become a subscriber to listen to your series on ai and he said you can't you can't really kind of knows kind of gets it kind of knows what he's talking about yeah kind of knows what he's talking about so that i think i think this ai thing is going to be to be his will um my final thing is uh i forced out of him and i may may someday reveal what he told me i forced him to tell me the identity of the brexit person remember the bit when they were trying to get an mp to vote theresa may's government for the brexit thing and this mp said they couldn't vote for it because their dad had told them not to and the whip said but your dad's dead yeah but i had a i had a seance i had a conversation with him last night he told me not to vote for it no way to run a country is the title of the book see you soon see you soon thank you bye
From the publisher
Is Britain's military being left behind as drones and AI rewrite the rules of modern warfare? Is British politics broken beyond repair, and does Johnny Mercer's ruthless fight for veterans reveal what's really wrong with Westminster? Why did a man so obsessed with truth end up defending Boris Johnson?
Alastair and Rory are joined by Johnny Mercer, former Conservative MP, Cabinet Minister, and Veterans Minister, to answer all these questions and more.
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