203. The Man Taking On Infantino: UEFA President Aleksander Čeferin

0:00Thanks for listening to The Rest is Politics. Sign up to The Rest is Politics Plus to enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chatroom and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolitics.com. That's therestispolitics.com. World football is in real turbulence. Gianni Infantino, the president of FIFA, widely criticised for getting far too close to Donald Trump and other political leaders, is now facing a fight for his own survival. After UEFA led, and for now won, the fight to block his plans partly to privatise the World Cup. My guest today is the man who is leading that fight.

0:34His name is Alexander Seferin, and it isn't the first time he's taken on the giants of the game. He played a similar role in stopping some of Europe's biggest clubs from forming a breakaway European Super League. He's been president of UEFA, European football's governing body, for 10 years, a decade during which football has become bigger, richer, and perhaps more political than ever. Unlike the flamboyant, Instagram-obsessed Infantino, he keeps a very low media profile, does very few interviews, so I'm very grateful that he's agreed to talk to us here in Split in Croatia, where we're both taking part in a pro-am football match at the Youth Sport Games.

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3:50I think we have to start with football. So just very, very straightforward question. Is Infantino's plan dead or will they try to revive it? And will Infantino survive as president of FIFA? First of all, when you compared in the beginning this plan with the Super League plan, I think this plan is even worse than the Super League plan. In the first case, clubs wanted to, super important clubs wanted to do their own league, which is wrong and would destroy football. But in this case, football would be literally sold. I'm absolutely sure that the plan is dead, but things get too far. Now, football politics is sometimes even more complicated or, if you want, dirty than the normal politics.

4:39So you never know what will happen in the future. But for me, the most important thing is that we stopped another try to sell the sport. I mean, it's hard to imagine what kind of people would sell the sport that belongs to everyone. So how does he survive then? If that's what UEFA, which is probably the most important of the individual bodies in football... Not probably. ...is the biggest, the richest, the most important, how does he survive? Because in the end it's about votes. It is political. It's about the numbers. Tell me what you think he will be trying to do to survive, because he's clearly not going to walk, is he?

5:20Yeah, things are changing every day. Every day there are different discussions. I didn't speak with him. He didn't contact me since this happened. But there are two options. One option is that he realizes that he doesn't have the support. And that's not only the political support of the ones who vote, but the political support of football community, the political support of fans, the political support of the players, former players, coaches. And the second option is that he goes to the elections in March. But in that case, I think he will have a candidate against him. I don't know yet who. No, you.

6:03No, I'm not interested because of two reasons. One reason is that I love UEFA and I love working here. And I think that at a certain point, it's time also to enjoy life a bit. And let's see till when. And the second point is my credibility is much, much, much higher if I'm not interested in the position. And Nasser at PSG, people talk about that as a possibility. I don't. I don't. He also says to me that he's not interested. But it's really too soon. The date is 18th of November. Let's see what happens till then. But I'm always fascinated by the power of football. you can do anything to people but don't take football away from them it happened in Super League it happened again now unbelievable unbelievable power of football I mean because the other thing is because he's a European he came from UEFA and yet you now have 55 leagues in Europe essentially saying you are destroying football how does he survive that?

7:03how does he even think he survives that? I mean elections are elections and the vote is of 211 federations. Now what I hear is that they play on, you know, arrogant Europe is against us, they have enough money, but I help the small and the poor and stuff like that. But I think someone should remind him that he's a European and that he was supported by UEFA, which he forgot. I noticed during the World Cup that you weren't very high profile. I think you went to Mexico, you went to Canada, you didn't go to the US. No. Deliberate? I felt a bit uncomfortable. I felt a bit uncomfortable because of the things that were happening with the referee, also with the Iranian national team.

7:53The Somali referee? Yes. The one that you then got to do the Super Cup? The Somali referee and the Iranian national team and some other teams as well. And as president of UEFA, you're automatically a vice president of FIFA. Did he discuss with the vice presidents the idea of a FIFA Peace Prize and giving it to Donald Trump? No, no. I got the information about this, if I'm diplomatic, quite a strange prize in the media. We didn't know anything. We didn't know anything about that. We didn't know anything about this program to sell football. Nothing, nothing. So that says, and you say you're being diplomatic, but that says that the guy has completely lost touch or has completely lost any respect to his fellow leaders in football.

8:39Yeah, I mean, the governance at FIFA on paper is clear. FIFA Council decides, the main things FIFA Congress decides, and things like that, President cannot decide by himself. We have bad experience with this organization for 100 years already. All the time, there are some problems, there are some controversies, there are some people who feel like kings. Why does football attract so many people? It seems to be like that. They get to the top of football. These values just seem so divorced from the people that they claim to want to help and support, but the people who love football. I mean, because of the influence of football.

9:17Football is super powerful. There's a lot of money. I think those two reasons. You know, if you are a volleyball federation president, you have much less influence. Talk me through the discussions at UEFA with the 55 associations when this plan emerged. And by the way, I've seen the full plan. It looks to me like something that ChatGPT could have put together in a few. It's not even, to me, a thought through plan. But it comes out, the Times and the Financial Times expose this. It comes out, the whole world reacts to it. First of all, where were you? How did you find out? What was your reaction?

9:54Then what did you do to lead the boycott? I was on vacation with my family when I got from my colleagues what Martin Ziegler from Times published. So that was the first you knew? Yes. And then we did an internal meeting first. You should see, you know, because sometimes it's presented like the fight between me and him. You should see my colleagues, how mad they were. They were worse than me. Colleagues at UEFA or the other federations? Both. Both. And then we organized a video conference with 55 federations. And, you know, they offered 40 million to federations who have 5 million budget. But if you would see that 40 out of 55 took the floor.

10:3740 spoke. 40 spoke. It was two hours. They were so mad. And one of the smaller federations, because on one side it was England, Germany, who you understand that they don't want that because also this money is not so big for them. But on the other side, San Marino, Cyprus, Liechtenstein, who all supported it, they said, we're not for sale. And one of the federation presidents said a good thing. He said, this is like he would try to buy my house with my money. Because it's the money of federations. It's not money of FIFA president or FIFA council. It's the money of football. And 75 % of this money is from Europe.

11:2075%. So what some people obviously don't understand is that it's not a private company. For example, look, FIFA has 6 billion reserves and they have much lower revenues than us. We have 500 million. Reserves? Yeah, they have 6 billion. Because you have to distribute. We are there to distribute. We redistribute 97 % of everything that we... Because you earn much more money than FIFA. Yes. By a factor of what? four or five? Yeah, it's like two, three times more, I would say. Okay. But then you distribute more? Yes, we distribute practically everything. Show me one NGO that keeps 3%. Of course, there's more money, so 3 % is more than 25 % if it's less money.

12:10But that was such a unanimous reaction of the federations that I was touched with. You couldn't believe that small, big, everybody. Just give me a flavor of that, the flavor of the meeting. You're online, yeah? Yes. All online? All online. And you've got 55 heads up there, and they're all putting their hands up. Yes. Just give me a flavor of the things you're saying. Yeah, I started, then my general secretary explained the other part, and two deputy general secretaries, and then they started to speak. They started to speak, and you know you cannot teach anyone to speak like that. Everybody spoke differently.

12:49Everybody saw a different angle, but everybody was unanimous that this is shameful, which for me is great that the football community is so strong. I was very positively surprised by Asian Football Confederation and by GONCACAF, who joined. Of course, it's very important that we go out first because we can afford it. The others have a bit more of a problem because they're not they're much much much much smaller. You said the plan was dead but let's just say hypothetically that he does survive he gets 106 votes and he tries to revive this plan okay the boycott threat presumably stays if that happens could UEFA create a tournament to rival a World Cup without UEFA?

13:39I'll try to be optimistic and say that it will never happen but if it happens but I really doubt it will happen. Everything is possible. We will not allow that to happen. Now it's not anymore about the project. Do you think, it was interesting, I saw Trump in the White House who's asked about it, whether he knew about it in advance, whether Gianni had talked to him about it, and he basically said, who? Do you think the political, because what's happened to Infantino, he got too close to the fire. Do you think he's been burnt there? I mean, first, I doubt that the US president knew anything about this plan.

14:20But one of the Kushners was involved, which makes me think that he might have done. Yeah, I doubt. But to be honest, I think you are naive if you think that a politician like that or any politician is your good friend. The moment you are a problem, you stop being a friend of a politician usually. What's your relationship with capital P politics? professional. When I spoke with some of the prime ministers, they even contacted me about the Super League and now about this project. And they were super positive and they tried to defend football. Of course, I think it would be a huge mistake for a politician not to defend the sport that everybody loves and to say, no, no, it should be sold.

15:08Nobody would do that. But maybe some of them, and I'm sure some of them are also honest. And tell me about the, let's go back to the Super League, European Super League. Again, how was that put together? When did you find out about that? How did you make that decision to say, you know, we have to fight this as well? Just talk me through that whole process. I heard that they were preparing it for a year or two. You just said it on the grapevine. Yeah. And we heard some rumors about it, but we didn't believe, to be honest. So we agreed with the, back then they were called ECA, now they are EFC, the clubs.

15:47We signed the new format that is now. And I thought it will be a very easy Congress in Montreux in Switzerland. So I went by car, eight, nine hours drive, because I thought it's just something easy. I got a phone call from a friend in the US who met one of the owners of the English clubs who told him that they are preparing a Super League. Then I got a phone call from another English clubs, one of the big six, the president and he told me, look we have to be in because or we are in or we are out and Agnelli is with them, with us. And he's a close friend? Yes. I was godfather of his daughter. So, I call Agnelli, he doesn't answer.

16:41I called his wife, he says that he's cooking lunch or something like that. She passes the phone to him and he said, no, that's a lie. He signed one day before. That's a lie. And then I say, look, let's do a press release. That's a lie and that's not true and fine. He says, yeah, I prepared a draft and then we do it. Hold on a minute. You said that my side of politics is bad. So this is the chairman of Juventus, close personal friend, family friends and everything. Say this to your face, this isn't happening. Yeah, and one week before he was in my house. Is he still a friend? No. Not close to a friend.

17:26So I stopped at a gas station. I prepared a draft. I spoke with with one of our communications guys. I call him, he doesn't answer the phone, and then he turns off the phone. So I knew it's a bit... So that's when you knew it was happening? Yeah, yeah. Then I got... After that, I got a phone call from another club, another English club. They said, look, we have to be there, and this and that, and then... Did you understand at least that sentiment? If the others are doing this, we have to be a part of that. Did you have any sympathy for that? I looked at those people a bit differently than the others.

18:09Who did you see as the real villains? It's hard to say. I don't want now we have good relations with everyone. The betrayal was from Agnelli. I mean, that's clear. And then later, you know, me and General Secretary, we went to the Congress dinner where we had 150 delegates, 170 delegates. and I've never seen something like that because it was already in the media it looked like a funeral and then I said guys don't worry 24 hours this is gone I didn't know what I'm talking about so we went out and the general secretary said president 24 hours come on I said I don't know I had to so I prepared a tough tough tough tough speech to attack them heavily and then I got a phone call from two English clubs and said, we will go out tomorrow, but don't be on a crusade in your speech tomorrow.

19:06Sorry, they said they would come out of the plan? Yes, yes. They will pull out, but just don't kill us tomorrow. Then I was changing my speech that night. You're welcome back if you did a mistake. Okay, mistakes happen. So it was quite interesting. And were they being truthful? Yes, yes. They were? They went out. Okay. Yeah. So it was an interesting experience that probably shortened my life a bit. And is that plan dead? Yes, yes, yes. I mean, look, it might happen in 20 years. You never know. But for now, we cooperate with everyone in a great way. And I don't think, I'm sure it cannot happen in the next 10 years.

19:50But if you think about it, so when I was growing up, football was very very different to how it is now and i would be focused on football in england and football in scotland and that was pretty much about it since then the game has changed european competition has become a much much bigger part of it isn't there a logic maybe to some kind of european super league being founded what is the what is the what's the strongest argument against saying, why can't we have a league of the top, top teams playing each other all the time? What's the big worry about it? First of all, if you look at the players in the best European teams, they are not raised in their teams.

20:32They are raised in smaller clubs. They start at the small villages, in small countries. And that wouldn't happen without the system of financing that we have. we are giving 240 million for solidarity just for the clubs that don't play Europe. So this is one. Second, I think that they don't understand that this competition would be boring. You don't want to watch Barcelona Bayern every week. You don't want. And, you know, also, why football is so interesting and why it's more than a sport, it's a religion in a way. one is that you don't need any money to play but the second is that that's the only sport where David can beat Goliath and it happens every day and that's the charm of football you would lose all this and European fans as much as they are difficult sometimes it's not only easy with them they are in love with this game and they would never allow that to happen one interesting story if we have one minute.

21:43So the final of Champions League 2019, Liverpool-Tottenham. I got an email from a fan. He said, I'm Trevor, I'm the fan of Tottenham for 40 years, my father for 60 years, and we'll never again come to the final and I can't get a ticket. So I said, send them two tickets. The day of the Super League, I get the email of the same Trevor saying, tell us what to do. We will destroy the stadiums. I mean, it's not just because of that. But that's this love for football. You do realize now that having said that, told that story, that every Champions League final now you're going to be inundated with emails.

22:23I changed my email. I changed my email. During that Super League period, I mean, you were up against some very powerful forces, business forces, different parts of the world, the Gulf getting in, Middle East countries getting involved. And I was interested how the PSG guy, Nasser, he was on your side. Is that right? Him and the German clubs were on our side. And that was very important. It was important. Obviously, they understand football better. And sometimes it's strange to see that the person that is not from Europe understands European football better than many Europeans. And you mentioned the Germans there, the Bundesliga.

23:05Am I being very naive in thinking that their model of ownership, 50 plus one, couldn't be applied, which gives the fans a much, much greater state, say, than they do in the Premier League? Is that not a model that they should all aspire to? Look, this model, from one point of view, is good. From the other point of view, except Bayern Munich, they cannot compete on a top, top level because of that. So if we come back to the Super League, Karl Heitz-Rumann-Igge told me if I would join, if Bayern would join Super League, I would have to leave German forever. He said I wouldn't be safe on the street.

23:43So German clubs were also tough. You talk about football being a religion. You talk about its importance in life and politics. It has to take it seriously. How would you define the relationship between football and politics? People don't understand many times that governmental interference or political interference means that politicians cannot decide what happens in football. But from the other point of view, politics influences all of us. Football is not on another planet. You know, even tax policy, different political decisions. So it's very connected. I mean, for us in Europe, it's very good that fans really love football.

24:28Fans do everything for their club or national team, because that means that politicians will always support us because fans are the voters. You can never say I'm against millions and millions of fans if you're a politician. So that's good for us. As I said before, some honestly love football and some are just pragmatic and smart. All right, Alessandro, we'll have a quick break, then back for more. Hi, this is Gary Lineker from Goalhangers. The rest is football. This episode is brought to you by WISE. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee, and what might be hidden away in the small print.

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26:48Welcome back to The Recipologist Leading with me, Ernst Campbell, with another AC, Alexander Seferin, the president of UEFA. You as UEFA have to make political decisions sometimes. So, for example, when Russia launched the bull-scale invasion of Ukraine, you kicked Russia out of European tournaments. Can I just ask you what that process involves, how you make that decision? whether that's influenced by politics with a capital P or whether that's a football decision and also why Belarus don't get the same treatment, why you didn't think, well, they're absolutely part of Putin's operation, they go too.

27:29Belarus or Israel. Yeah, okay. So when this aggression started, we had a meeting immediately. of course you have a political pressure there. Not directly, but indirectly you saw that the situation is so complicated that if we wouldn't do it, I think 45 out of 55 federations couldn't play because governments wouldn't allow them to play. And when you say you feel it indirectly, do you get any direct pressure? No, no, no. We got some letters later about Belarus, but I don't think that... Look, first of all, I don't like boycotts. I don't like that athletes suffer because of political decisions. Do you think that a football player can say anything to Putin?