In short
Finland’s shift from long military non-alignment to NATO membership after Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, and what that implies for European deterrence, tech/AI risks, and “strategic autonomy.” It also covers Sanna Marin’s political background, Finland’s social changes, and the center-left’s challenge against populism.
Guests
Sanna Marin, former Prime Minister of Finland (born 1985). She was raised by her mother, who worked from age 15 and raised her alone after living in an orphanage; Marin benefited from Finland’s welfare model (education access without tuition). She later became a Social Democrat leader, became PM in her early 30s, and is now involved with the Tony Blair Institute.
Key claims
Russia’s logic differs from Europe’s; sanctions and economic ties didn’t prevent wider war. Finland’s threat perception is direct because of shared history and geography, so it maintained mandatory service and built reservist capacity. Europe must strengthen drones/AI-enabled infrastructure defense and reduce dependence in defense, medicine, and key tech (AI, quantum, space). The US and NATO reliability may be changing; Europe must “handle its own backyard.” Populism grows from fear about livelihoods, not from Islam itself; center-left parties must address real problems and rebuild hope.
Notable examples
Crimea 2014 as a warning; Finland’s collective memory of wars and Russian rule; NATO deterrence via unity (including the US); Ukraine’s “modern functional army” and innovations; hybrid attacks in the Baltic Sea (cable cutting, drone incidents); Marin’s COVID leadership and Finland’s NATO decision; her party’s program-building process; her “Betoon irti” party video scandal.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOFinland's NATO Decision
1:23 to 1:47
Discussion on Finland's decision to join NATO in response to Russian aggression.
“It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once.”
Finland's NATO Decision
2:29 to 4:47
Discussion on Finland's decision to join NATO in response to Russian aggression.
“Because one of the biggest decisions you had to take was when Russia launched the all-out invasion of Ukraine, Finland ultimately joined NATO.”
Understanding Putin's Logic
4:47 to 6:04
Exploration of the differences in logic between Western and Russian perspectives.
“Russia, which you or people in Finland maybe understand more directly?”
Threat Perception in Finland
6:04 to 7:27
Analysis of how Finland views the threat from Russia compared to other countries.
“Peter Robinson One of the implications of this is that his idea of greater Russia isn't just Ukraine.”
Building Military Strength in Europe
7:27 to 10:56
Discussion on the need for Europe to strengthen its military capabilities.
“And here we need to work together with the Ukrainians.”
Concerns About US Democracy
10:56 to 14:00
Insights into worries regarding the state of democracy in the US and its implications for Europe.
“And we need to build our own capabilities.”
European Sovereignty and Defense
14:00 to 18:10
Discussing the need for Europe to achieve more sovereignty and strengthen defense capabilities.
“And I see that there are parts now happening in the US that have similar kind of indications.”
Sanna Marin's Upbringing and Political Journey
18:10 to 23:54
Sanna Marin shares her childhood experiences and journey into politics.
“We always like to talk to our guests about where they come from as people.”
Navigating Gender and Politics
23:54 to 27:20
Marin discusses the unique challenges women face in politics and her experiences as a young leader.
“compared to other world leaders yeah and you approached it I think in some ways with a very different style, you also became something of a very, very famous global figure.”
Viral Moments and Media Attention
27:20 to 28:00
Reflecting on the unexpected media attention from a personal moment at a party.
Show all 24 chapters
Sanna Marin on Personal Life in Politics
28:00 to 30:06
Sanna Marin discusses the backlash she faced for a private party and the media's reaction.
“ambitious climate legislation or parental leave or transforming our social and healthcare structures that many governments were not able to do and tried for years and years.”
Shifts in Political Discourse
30:06 to 33:18
The conversation explores how political issues have shifted to the right and the implications of this change.
“Now, the new conservative leadership in Britain, they never talk about these things.”
Understanding Populism in Europe
33:18 to 35:11
Marin explains the rise of populism and the fears driving voters towards extreme solutions.
“I think everybody has a possibility and responsibility to act and to do things.”
Rebuilding Confidence in Social Democracy
35:11 to 37:53
Marin reflects on how Finland's social democrats regained confidence and adapted to current issues.
“There's now increasingly open statements by political leaders of all sorts, which make many, many Muslims in Europe feel very, very uncomfortable.”
The Role of Leadership in Politics
37:53 to 41:36
Discussion on the importance of leadership in addressing current political and social issues.
“And then we did transform our party programs.”
The Emotional Toll of Politics
41:36 to 42:13
Marin shares insights on the emotional challenges faced by politicians in today's political climate.
“For example, how to become more energy independent.”
The Pain of Politics
42:13 to 45:21
Exploring the emotional experiences and frustrations of politicians today.
“And one of the things that I noticed interviewing politicians is some of them feel that politics today is actually quite painful.”
Political Structures in Finland
45:21 to 48:09
Understanding the unique political system in Finland and its collective approach.
“It's hard to compare different political and administrative structures between societies because we have different political systems.”
Challenges Facing Finnish Society
48:09 to 50:43
Discussing the recent changes in Finland's government and their societal impacts.
“Well, like I said, Finland currently have the most right-wing government that it has ever had.”
Reflections on Leadership
51:00 to 53:45
Analyzing the impact of leadership styles and political changes in Finland.
“rather than actually here is a very bright, thoughtful leader who actually was a pretty impressive politician who achieved a pretty remarkable electoral victory at a young age.”
The Evolution of Progressive Politics
53:45 to 56:00
Examining the shift from conservative to progressive politics in Nordic countries.
“And now we see these countries as the most progressive countries on earth.”
Reflections on Political Dynamics and Personal Impressions
56:00 to 57:39
Explore how in-person interactions influence perceptions of political figures.
“Do you think it does make a difference if you're in the room?”
Discussion on Scandinavian Leaders and Their Impact
57:40 to 58:19
Learn about the unique qualities and influences of Scandinavian political leaders.
“can depend slightly on how you're feeling towards them.”
Discussion on Scandinavian Leaders and Their Impact
58:31 to 1:00:05
Learn about the unique qualities and influences of Scandinavian political leaders.
“Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile with your summer price forecast.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Thanks for listening to The Rest is Politics. Sign up to The Rest is Politics Plus. To enjoy ad-free listening, receive a weekly newsletter, join our members chatroom and gain early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestispolitics.com. That's therestispolitics.com.
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2:24Welcome to Restless Politics Leading with me, Boris Jert. And me, Alastair Campbell. So can we start with Finland and NATO? Because one of the biggest decisions you had to take was when Russia launched the all-out invasion of Ukraine, Finland ultimately joined NATO. I just want to just talk me through your view of NATO historically and what it was like taking such a big decision and how you took that through with the Finnish people. I try to explain it. I understand that looking from outside of Finland, the reasons why we stayed military non-aligned for so long and why we then joined NATO might seem unlogical, but it is actually quite logical.
3:02And the reasons why we stayed online and why we joined NATO is the same, to keep our country and our citizens safe. We were for a long time thinking as a nation that the best way to secure our independence, security, our freedom was to maintain a functional relationship with Russia because we have extremely difficult history with the country. We have fought wars, been under Russian rule before, fought wars with Soviet Union. We have lost land, almost 10 % of our land mass in those wars and also lives have been lost tremendously. And every Finnish citizens have this collective memory of those difficult times.
3:50And we really well have been aware that we have this monster or this aggressor just next doors. And the way that we have been keeping our country safe is that we have had functional relationship with the country. But when the war in Ukraine, full-scale invasion of Ukraine started, we saw, like the rest of Europe, that Russia isn't only a country that have been an aggressor in the past, but it is an aggressor now. And Europe is in war because of Russia. And then that collective memory also served to that direction that we as a country together decided it's not safe anymore not to join. NATO, because we didn't want to find ourselves in a situation where we would be alone facing that aggressor.
4:46Rory Stewart:What do you think maybe people in Britain or Western Europe maybe don't understand about Russia, which you or people in Finland maybe understand more directly? Well, I think the most important thing is to understand that the logic of Putin and the logic of Russia, it's very different than ours. And the biggest mistakes looking at the situation now was May 2014 when Russia invaded Crimea. And we thought that some sanctions and some consequences would be enough. And we thought for a long time as a Europe together that having this functional relationship with Russia, close economic ties would prevent wider war because it would be so irrational to start a war because of the economic consequences.
5:36But Russians don't think like this. Putin doesn't think like this. He thinks about great Russian empire that he wants to build. He wants to be this kind of strong man that takes those parts that he thinks are Russians. And of course, we don't think like this, but I think we need to understand that the logic of Putin is very, very different than ours. And that's why we cannot show weakness, because he doesn't understand weakness. He will go wherever he sees a possibility to be aggressive.
6:08Rory Stewart:Peter Robinson One of the implications of this is that his idea of greater Russia isn't just Ukraine. I mean, historically, parts of the Baltic, of course, were part of the Soviet Union. There have been times historically where parts of Finland have been claimed by Russia. What's your vision of where he thinks the frontiers of Russia should be, what this Greater Russia Project is about? I wouldn't be naive in this. There is a will to expand the war. Putin hasn't been successful in Ukraine. They have been able to take parts of Ukraine, which is extremely sad and unfortunate for the people that are still in those occupied territories.
6:49But they haven't been successful. Putin haven't been that successful. They weren't able to march to Kiev and change the government and the leadership and turn Ukraine in some kind of Belarus. But still, I believe that there is a will to expand this war beyond Ukrainian borders to Moldova, Baltics, maybe also other regions of Europe. So we shouldn't be naive about it. And we now need to be able to build greater military strength in Europe to be able to have that kind of real deterrence of our own. And here we need to work together with the Ukrainians. They have now the most modern functional army, biggest army in Europe.
7:35And they have been extremely amazing in creating and innovating during this war. and they have built capabilities that we don't yet have. I'm fascinated by Finland's mindset on this because you're a country with roughly the same population as the country where you are with Rory now, Scotland, 5 million. You've got almost a million reservists. How do you build up that kind of understanding and support that takes this threat seriously? Because I sometimes feel with the UK that we vaguely see Russia as being an enemy, but we don't necessarily feel it is a threat. Do Finns feel the threat? And is that why you've managed to get almost a million people to become military reservists?
8:19Everyone in each country that shares a border with Russia feels the threat because it's really real. It's real from a historical perspective. We all have been victims of Russian aggression, different ways. Finland were able to stay independent when many countries like the Baltics and Polish and others were under the Soviet rule. And looking from that perspective, I think that we were fortunate, even though we also did suffer a lot during the wars. So we understand the threat and we understand that it is really real. And we understand also the mindset of Putin. And we weren't naive when rest of Europe decided to cut from the military expenditures, armed forces, and didn't invest.
9:11We always maintained our mandatory military service, and we did invest in our defense capabilities because we understand the reality of the threat. And I also think that rest of Europe, and actually rest of the world, should also understand the threat that dictators and and authoritarian regimes pose to democracies. And we shouldn't be naive about it, like I said before, because nowadays, if we look at the war, how it had altered with drones, with capabilities concerning AI, we need to all understand that we are not safe, even though we are farther away from the border, because you can use AI to map out critical infrastructure.
9:56We are already witnessing that this war, it's not about military targets it is about hitting energy systems it is about hitting heating about water about everything that civilians need so civilian infrastructure and against civilian people and if you can map out critical infrastructure with that kind of speed and you can plant drones everywhere then you are not safe in spain or portugal or here in scotland or or in in UK, you are targeted everywhere. And we also see a different kind of incidents happening more frequently in the Baltic Sea, cutting down cables, other parts of Europe, different kind of things, attacks, hybrid attacks, but also physical attacks with drones.
10:50And we haven't been able also to reply effectively. So we need to be aware that we are not safe. And we need to build our own capabilities. And then we need also to remember that we need the unity and that we are small if we are apart and we are stronger if we are together. The biggest part of that NATO unity is the United States. I just wondered the extent to which you think at the moment they're reliable and also the extent to which if at all you think that Donald Trump is an authoritarian. About NATO, it's not the same organization that Finland and Sweden joined 2023 when Finland accessed NATO.
11:32It has changed, and I think we need to be quite frank about it. United States have said quite frankly and out loud that they think, and I understand this argument, that they think that they have been taking too great responsibility for European security. And it is now the Europeans' task to actually handle their own backyard. Understand the frustration also of the US citizens to see and witness how much they pay about our safety. And now we have to step up. And I think this needs to be also the angle how we watch NATO. Europe needs to be able to take care of its own territory, its own safety, its own security.
12:16And it is up to us. Are we able to do this? And I believe that we are. We are not as weak as we pretend to be. We are a great economic power. We are within European Union. We have been able to maintain that unity, even though it's sometimes difficult. and even though there are 27 countries that need to negotiate about everything, I think we have also been successful in many, many cases. And I believe that we can all be successful also together within NATO. But that means that we have to be determined about it. We need to be strong and we need to have a clear direction and strong leadership to change the transatlantic cooperation, not to be led only by the US, but also by Europe.
13:04And Trump? And Trump, there is extremely worrying development happening in the United States. And I think that many citizens in the U.S. also are worried about this. When we look at Russia, what happened before the full-scale invasion 2022, it didn't happen overnight. There were 10 to 15 years of development to the wrong direction. And it started with silencing the press and opposition, civil society, pushing through laws that violated human rights and the international legislative base. So it didn't happen fast. It happened gradually. And then you end up with this authoritarian regime that starts wars and acts violently against others.
14:02And I see that there are parts now happening in the US that have similar kind of indications. And I think that is extremely worrying. Of course, we need to remember that the U.S. is a strong and old democracy and there are firewalls that hopefully are in the way of this kind of development. But there are some, and not only some, but many things that worry me personally. And I think we all need to remember that we have to fight for those things that our fathers and mothers and grandmothers and grandfathers have fought for, the international rules-based order. And that we have systems and we have rules in our democracies that hold.
14:51Rory Stewart:How do we achieve more sovereignty? I mean, at the moment, we're in a situation in which we build on the top of American or Chinese AI systems, and Trump can switch off an AI system, American payment systems, the dollar, cloud computing, our Google accounts, all of this are controlled by the US. Do you think there is a reasonable strategy for Europe to try to get a little bit more independence and control with some of these basic elements of life? If we look about the dependence is that we have now, there are many sectors that worry me and I know worry others. We have been talking about the defense capabilities that we need much more.
15:35We need to strengthen our capabilities when it comes to drones, when it comes to different kind of systems that are actually used more now, not only in the past. So we need to innovate. We need to listen and we need to learn from Ukraine. And we need their help. And I think Ukraine would also be a great asset in NATO because they bring strength, even though the country has been in war over four years. But they have shown incredible strength. And I think they are stronger than we are. So we need them as much as they need our help now. But there are also other sectors and other fields that we are extremely vulnerable.
16:17And one big sector is of course tech. We are very dependent on US. We are dependent on China. We are dependent many countries that are not Europeans. And I think we need to boost our own capabilities when it comes to new technologies like AI, quantum, space technologies, connections, satellites. And there are many fields that we are now lacking behind and we need to do more. There are many European tech companies that are actually building great things, but we need to be able to make sure that these companies can grow, that also the investments that they need to really compete in a global level, not only within Europe.
17:03This is extremely important issue for me, the European strategic autonomy. For example, facing COVID as a prime minister 2020, for the first time, we saw how incredibly dependent and weak we were when we talked about medicine and medical supplies and different kind of gear that we didn't have because we had been outsourced everything to the much lowest cost countries in Asia. So we are vulnerable in many ways, in defense, in technology, in medicine, medical equipment. And we need to make sure that whatever risks and whatever catastrophes there might be in the future, we are able to take care of our safety, our citizens' safety and our democracies.
17:55and we need to be more autonomous. And this doesn't mean that we shouldn't work together with others, but we need to make sure that we are building trading routes that are secure and safe and not only look at the cost in the short term. We always like to talk to our guests about where they come from as people. And every politician these days has to have an interesting backstory and you have quite an interesting backstory. Just tell us a bit about your mum, your dad, your childhood. Well, I was born in Finland in 1985, and my mother raised me by herself. Her childhood and younghood wasn't easy.
18:35I was raised in an orphanage, started working when she was 15 and had me when she was 23, raised me by herself. we didn't have much money and we didn't have a big family that supported us. But I was fortunate enough to born in a country called Finland. And we had that welfare model that I was able to enjoy as a child, to access quality daycare, to access quality education that was equal for everybody. and to be able to educate myself all the way to go to university with no tuition. This is incredible in our world. And I think that I have so many more possibilities than my mother had. And I'm extremely grateful for that.
19:27And I think we need to be always remembering about the things that are good in our societies and really to protect those things and make sure that also other people have those possibilities in life that I was able, for example, to enjoy.
19:44Rory Stewart:Can you tell us a little bit about how Finland's changed? We were both in Finland quite recently, and I noticed there was a big statue of General Mannheim who looks like quite a traditional figure. Presumably, even when you were born, Finland was less liberal, less socially liberal than it is now. And it's changed. What has that transition been? I mean, we sometimes in Britain, we imagine Nordic countries have always been unbelievably progressive and liberal, but actually there were conservative pockets and there's been a lot of change. Tell us a little bit about that. Well, of course, the world has changed tremendously.
20:14Also, my mother found out a few years after having me that she had fell in love with a woman. So I was raised in a rainbow family. And back then, it wasn't that usual or that publicly well-known like nowadays. And of course, since those days, we have passed legislations that legalize gay marriage and that gives rights to families that they didn't have before. And this is, of course, extremely important and good. And as a politician, I have fought for these things. But I think we still need to remember that maybe even the Nordic countries, we are liberal, and I'm really glad about it. And I think that's important.
21:01But we need to remember that also the things that we have been able to achieve and to push through, they are challenged every day. And there are conservative forces out there that would like to change everything back to the 1950s. So that's why we all have the responsibility to make sure that we fight for the things that we believe in. And I want to see a world where everybody has the same possibilities and opportunities and rights that others. When did you first feel inside yourself that politics might be your calling? How did you know that you are basically a social democrat? And did you, when you first had those political instincts, did you feel within you that you might get as high as you did?
21:49No, I didn't plan a career in politics. I never thought that I became, someday became a prime minister of a country. Politics always looked so far away and it was so far away from the reality that I came from. It looked like older men in craze suits and making important decisions and having this small group meeting somewhere, a world that was so far away from my reality and my life. So I never thought a career in politics or that I would become a politician. But when I was about 20, I just cared so much about the things that I believed in, about climate change, laws of biodiversity, human rights, rights for minorities.
22:35And I really felt the passion to also make the change that I wanted to see. and then I went to some youth organization meeting in my party that wasn't my party then yet but some youth meetings and some party meetings and it felt so dusty. It felt so dusty. I remember entering like political meetings for the first time. It was boring. It was everything that you would imagine. It wasn't like uplifting. I thought when walking in to those doors I thought like now we are changing the world. But it wasn't like that. It felt dusty and it felt old. But I still did appreciate so much about the work that social democrats had done in Nordic countries, building the welfare model that I was able to enjoy.
23:28So I saw the possibility to work within those structures and with those people that had good hearts. And there my journey to become a politician started and then step by step you enter that that world and it takes you and still I think it's incredible that I was able to climb those ladders so high and I'm really grateful
23:53Rory Stewart:about that so you became prime minister at 35 34 34 yes very very young very young comparatively compared to other world leaders yeah and you approached it I think in some ways with a very different style, you also became something of a very, very famous global figure. So for people from the progressive left, you and Jacinta Ardern were great. If everybody was getting depressed about world leaders, they would say, oh, San Amaro and Jacinta Ardern, this wonderful hope for the world. How did that feel? I mean, did you feel this was putting you too much on a pedestal and this was a kind of pressure you didn't need?
24:30Rory Stewart:I mean, how did you experience this strange moment where suddenly people from other countries that know nothing about Finland have confused you with the Prime Minister of New Zealand and think you're all leading a global movement? Well, I think it's extremely sad that there are so few young and so few female leaders in our world. I think we would and we need more diversity when it comes to politics and when it comes to leadership positions because when we have different kind of people, we make better decisions. We have to think about different angles. We need to think about different perspectives and look from the perspective of people that come from different places.
25:09Rory Stewart:Can I interrupt you? Could you give us an example maybe of something that you felt that as a younger woman, you could sense or feel that maybe a more conventional politician might not have felt or sensed? As a young person, that's unique in such. But as a woman, I think it's quite universal experience that you have to work twice as hard. I want to say that I don't think that you have to be perfect, but many times the world that we live in puts those standards and those kind of more moralistic rules to women that nobody can achieve. And that are not applied to men. Yes, they are not applied to men.
25:47I think that men still have different rules than women when it comes to public life. I don't think that this should be the case, but unfortunately, in many ways, it still is. So of course, I also felt that pressure to always look a certain way and always perform perfectly. But as a politician, I know that there were many that were looking to me and maybe Jacinda Arden and some others to put us in some pedestal. But I didn't focus on that. I focused on the work. And I also didn't feel personally that kind of pressure that would come from the angle of being, for example, only 34 years old. because when I started as a prime minister, COVID hit immediately.
26:34And it was that kind of moment and time where I really had to lead the country fully and not like traditional way, but to take every single thing in my hands and into the government's hands and really lead the country through a difficult situation and a big global catastrophe. So I think that also gave me a lot of credibility and strength also in the eyes of those that might have been questioning me because of my youth or because of my gender. I think I showed strength as a leader. So I didn't experience that much of that kind of like looking down on me because of my age. When you were talking there, though, about the way that maybe you were being treated differently to other leaders and particular men, did you have in mind the time that you became this kind of global story because of I can't even remember the details now but you were basically dancing at a party and the whole thing went kind of crazy I just wonder what that was like where you suddenly became a global talking point for doing something that most people do without thinking twice about it yeah I still hope that the things that I will be remembered was leading Finland through COVID and and leading our country to NATO and and all the other things that our government did because we did also many reforms that were historically changing, like passing through the world's most ambitious climate legislation or parental leave or transforming our social and healthcare structures that many governments were not able to do and tried for years and years.
28:13So we were able to make great reforms also within our government. But still, we live in societies and in a time where stories sell and media picks up stories that sells the best. And my selling story was that I was in a private party in my friend's apartment. I think we were maybe seven or eight people. And then we were listening to this Finnish song called Betoon irti, that it's very popular. and we were singing that song and dancing to that song in front of like you know phone and and that that videos they leaked and it became this huge huge story and turbulence in Finland I think elsewhere it was viewed like this funny story about a funny country that how can this be a scandal that somebody dances in a party that was a private like I don't think we were more than eight people there and nothing like sinister or amazing happened but it was a huge media turbulence in Finland it lasted for weeks and then the story went like can she really serve as a prime minister and having that kind of position when she behaves like this like dancing and and having like a top on and not not being some dinner table to discuss about politics with businessmen.
Read the full transcript
29:38Of course, I don't think that our politicians or leaders need to be only people that go to fancy restaurants and talk about only politics or some other issues. I think we all have a right, our personal life. We are all entitled to be ourselves. And that's why I didn't apologize for having a night out with my friends on my holiday on summer. I think it was, was it 22?
30:09Rory Stewart:One of the things that struck me when you were talking about the achievements of your government, COVID, parental leave, climate change, workers' rights, being a young woman, it's amazing how much has changed in the kind of age of Trump that if we had been doing this interview four or five years ago, these issues were the great, exciting issues of the time. And now politics is moving, it seems, so much towards the right that in the United States or in Britain or even in France or Germany, if you say, I'm the person who did this stuff on climate change, parental care, it feels old fashioned, strangely, suddenly.
30:54Rory Stewart:I mean, certainly if you're from the AfD or if you're from Le Pen's party or if you're from Trump's party or from Roger's party, but even the mainstream conservatives, you know, I was part of David Cameron's government and we used to be proud of those kinds of things. Now, the new conservative leadership in Britain, they never talk about these things. So the whole world has changed. What do you think has happened just in a four-year period that things that everybody would have been like, you know, giving standing ovations for now everyone's like, oh, that's a bit lame? Well, I think we have declined to madness in many ways.
31:28The world is more chaotic now than when I started 2019. It is led by the strongman figures that want to be remembered in history books and strength that means strength by force and with arms matter. And we have been forgetting about issues that are actually the greatest threat to humanity, like climate change. This is the reality still, but we don't talk about it because we talk about problems that we create ourselves, like wars and conflicts and things that are there, but they don't need to be. We can still change this, but it needs leadership that can see and that have the strength to oppose this madness and these mad times that we live in.
32:22During this summer, we have seen firefighters all across Europe. We have seen heat waves that have been historically great. And we are living in this pot like frogs that are boiling, but slowly, slowly, slowly. And until we are boiled to dead, we don't act about it strong enough. I think we have still the possibility to do better, but it needs leadership from our politicians. It needs leadership from our business leaders, but also it needs leadership from ordinary people. People in our democracies have the right to vote. They have the right to say what they think. They have the right to act on it.
33:04And I think that this time where social media and people thinking that it is a political task to like something, it is not. You need to occupy the streets and you need to really join parties and you have to do things and not to be passive on the side and think that somebody else will fix all our problems. I think everybody has a possibility and responsibility to act and to do things. And we need to demand better from those that are leading.
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34:34Rory Stewart:Wayfair, every style, every home. Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile with your summer price forecast. Now, unfortunately, we're seeing rising costs across the country with possibility that big wireless hates you 100%. Now, over here at Mint Mobile, we're seeing sunny skies and dropping prices, every plan to just$15 a month. Give it a try at midmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy.
35:06Rory Stewart:See terms.
35:10Rory Stewart:One of the other things that's changed, I feel, a lot in the last four, five years is the way that people speak about Islam. There's now increasingly open statements by political leaders of all sorts, which make many, many Muslims in Europe feel very, very uncomfortable. Is this something that you've experienced? Can you explain this phenomenon? What's happening here? How would you respond to this? It's not a new thing to blame minority groups or people that come from different backgrounds of the problems that everybody is facing. I think the reason why there are populistic movements and why populistic parties have gained more popularity in Europe, like AFD in Germany or the populists or for a ride in France or elsewhere.
35:59I think the reason is very similar to the reasons that it has always been. People are worried about their income. They are worried about their livelihood. They're worried about the rising inflation and the cost of living. And they're worried that their children don't have the possibilities that they had earlier or historically. So I think the problems are quite similar. People are worried about their lives. They're worried about their family. They're also worried all the things that they see around. And the more afraid and worried they are, they turn to the ones that sell the easiest solutions that are not solutions at all.
36:46And I think that social democrats or center parties that come from the center, from the left, the responsibility and also they need to perform better. We need to talk to people to eye to eye level and not down. and we need to understand that these are real problems and if we don't tackle these problems that people are facing every day then they will turn to the populistic movements that sell hate anger fear and many times blame immigrants whether it's muslims or others or other minority groups and the hate just continues growing it feels to me that we as social democrats have lost our confidence.
37:30How do we get that confidence back? And what have you taken from the work that you're now doing with my old boss in the Tony Blair Institute about how the center left is trying to manage itself and reclaim a politics and a power that it felt like a generation ago we really had, but it now feels it's slipping away? Well, I can tell how we did gain our confidence back in Finland as social democrats because like I said before when I entered first time to my party meetings social democratic meetings it felt dusty it felt old it felt boring it felt like there was a day decades ago when we did something and now we were just maintaining it and the way that we gained back our confidence was actually deeping and diving into politics diving into the issues that mattered, that were real problems today.
38:27And then we did transform our party programs. And the way that we did it wasn't top down. It wasn't like the party board wrote those programs. We did organize groups that gathered hundreds of people within our party to create targets and also to create credible steps how to get there what should we do within the next 10-15 years to transform our country and to tackle the problems that were the problems now and not problems decades ago and when we did take everybody in our party people in to creating those targets and those programs they felt involved they got excited and we really believed in those those things that we created together and we were able to enter to elections not with like as a politicians like we we want to be politicians and just continue to do something that were done before but we went to the elections that program first like we really want to make these reforms and we really want to change this country.
39:43And then we won and we were able to negotiate those things to our governmental program. And we were able to push those reforms through. We gained more popularity and more seats, 2023 elections, but we didn't win. We didn't enter first. And now Finland has the most right wing government that it has ever had. But the social Democrats are now also leading the polls. And I think that we will win the next elections in Finland. So how to gain back that confidence? I think it is about politics. And it is about the issues. It is about the things that people see around them that they feel are real problems.
40:30And I think it is Social Democrats and central left parties task to really tackle these issues and create visions that lead to better direction and not only sell this misery that we see every single day. I think it is our job to create hope. And I think it's our task to create a pathway that people feel that is credible and that they could walk to a better future. And Tony's role? Of course, Tony's role. And Tony has a role, especially in UK. And I know that he has been working greatly with the Labour leadership to create these credible paths and what should be the way for UK to go forward. is also really active globally.
41:24And TBI, which I work in, has published many articles and essays about the transformation that we could see in Europe and that we should really focus on. For example, how to become more energy independent. What are the things that Europe needs to do to make sure that we are also the front runners in AI and new technologies? And I think this work is important. But Tony isn't an active politician anymore. And I am not also. So we need to push these things through with the political leaders and with the people that are still in politics.
42:12Rory Stewart:I'm a former politician. And one of the things that I noticed interviewing politicians is some of them feel that politics today is actually quite painful. It's a pretty unpleasant job. You know, I left politics after 10 years. I have no intention of going back. I don't want to do this again. I wonder how you felt. What is the lived experience of being a politician? How would you communicate the emotional experience of it? Well, I think this worry is real. And I understand why many politicians leave politics and why they don't want to go back, because it is painful. It is painful for many reasons.
42:53Politics has become more entertaining. It has become more focused on individual stand-up issues. When I look at my former colleagues or my former party comrades, I think many people went to politics for the first place because they wanted to change the world. They wanted to do things. They wanted to change structures within our societies or work for the things that matter to them, work for their values. and people join parties, political parties and go to that road because they want to do things. But our media climate has been turning to the direction for such a long time that focus on individuals and selling stories.
43:41And we all know that negative sells better than positive. And we all know that if you put headlines like scandal and some other words, it means more readers. it means more clicks. So the media environment that we live in, it's quite unpleasant, because it's always chasing some kind of story that is usually negative. And also social media has changed politics many ways. And politicians feel the pressure. Some maybe enjoy it. But I think in the end, these times that we live in that makes politics more about entertainment than actually working for the problems that we see in our societies. It is quite harsh environment to work in because that is not the reason why you went in in the first place.
44:35Rory Stewart:So I was talking to a British minister, former minister very recently, and he was just saying that looking back on his time, he just felt so frustrated. I mean, he wasn't prime minister, he was a cabinet minister, but that he couldn't get things done. And so often he was in a portfolio and then he was moved to another portfolio, or the system just didn't believe in what he was trying to do, or the things that he cared about, the system didn't care about, so that he felt it much, much more frustrating than he imagined. I mean, he thought that it would be more like going into an NGO or a business where you would come in and you'd have a clear plan.
45:11Rory Stewart:Actually, his experience was incredibly depressing. I don't know whether that's something that you feel that's something in the structures of politics which often makes it quite difficult for people to actually bring change? Well, it's hard to compare systems. It's hard to compare different political and administrative structures between societies because we have different political systems. In Finland, I think parties have power. And for example, my party, the Social Democrats in Finland, And we have this like collective way of thinking. And the way that we work is that together you form the targets and ideas and the plan how to get there.
45:56And it's collective. And as a party leader, you don't dictate things. You actually listen to the people that are within the party. And then you create programs like I explained earlier. and then you push these things through when you are able to form a government or be in a government and then you really have power and I felt that I had power and I believed in the things that I was also creating together with others so I didn't feel that kind of frustration because it wasn't a system where I was working as an individual but I was working as a leader but only like leader in a way that that um the targets that i pushed through wasn't my own it was my parties and and the targets that we set out together uh and i felt that incredible rewarding something that gave me inspiration but different countries have different systems and also in finland you always form coalition governments so you never have all the power and then you have to like you know you have those struggles within your own group.
47:06But actually, you have to form a government together with other parties and negotiate about everything and make compromises and find consensus sometimes, hopefully. And then sometimes you lose. And sometimes you are not able to push those things through that you want. And you have to also give something to others. So it's more difficult to maybe comment on different political systems.
47:30Rory Stewart:Often when we interview leaders from Nordic countries, we've interviewed the Finnish president recently, we've interviewed, I think, most of the Nordic leaders, you get this incredibly optimistic utopian vision of these countries. It doesn't matter whether you're talking about Finland or Norway or Sweden or Denmark, we get the general impression that, or even Estonia, that these are, these sort of, Iceland even, these sort of perfect social democratic utopias were the happiest people on earth. And obviously, you are very proud and patriotic about your countries. But is there another side? Is there something we're not seeing in the experience of people in these countries where if they were listening to you all being interviewed, telling us how perfect these societies are, they would say, no, no, no, it's not quite as simple as that.
48:09Well, like I said, Finland currently have the most right-wing government that it has ever had. The current government that is very opposite from the ideas and the ways that I think and what I believe in have done many things that have I think changed our country in many ways. For example? For example they have performed massive cuts in social and health care from social benefits education and many other places which our Nordic welfare model is based on and there are now many people in Finland that are suffering because of these these cuts and I think that if we have for a long time have a society where people feel togetherness and that they feel that even though they come from different background difficult background don't have that much money or or that that kind of wealth or strength where they come from they still have possibilities they have possibility to educate themselves and they have opportunities in their lives.
49:21I think nowadays there are more and more people that don't feel that they belong and that they are appreciated and that they have equal opportunities. And I think there have been made many changes that have changed our society, not fully, but we will see the effects later on. And this worries me. I hope that we are able to change the atmosphere that is now quite in Finland. I think it has been quite depressing. No vision, better vision for the future. People don't feel hope. They don't feel that there are good things happening. I think that the way that we have been discussing about things these past years have been quite negative.
50:09And also the decisions that the current government has made has made people's life more difficult. And I think that within Finland, it's not as optimistic and that positive and utopia-like feeling that may be looking from the outside. Because when you compare still Finland or Sweden or other Nordic countries to other places of the world, of course, we have many things in our benefit and many things are good. But still, these have been difficult years for many Finnish citizens.
50:42Rory Stewart:Thank you very much indeed. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much. Alison, I was really won over, but that may be that we're always won over by the people we're with in person. You were remote on that. I thought in person she was really remarkable. I was pleased we started the interview talking about geopolitics because I think one of the problems with interviewing Santa Marian is people often go straight to famous videos of her dancing or scandals rather than actually here is a very bright, thoughtful leader who actually was a pretty impressive politician who achieved a pretty remarkable electoral victory at a young age.
51:23Do you think it does make a difference if you're there in person? I did wonder about that. I was, as you know, in a bit of a bad mood because she was a bit late. And as you know, I'm anally punctual. But no, I was very, very impressed. And I think she is an impressive figure.
51:37Rory Stewart:Mood is a problem, isn't it? I mean, I realised that I was really cross about the Gabriel Zuckman interview because I'd cancelled a charity board meeting I was supposed to be doing at the same time to do it, which probably shouldn't have done that. So all the way through the meeting, I was a hot boiling with rage in the middle of Paris. No, Rory, you were boiling with rage because the subject that gets under your skin was top of the agenda. But I thought what I think are opposite because I'm fascinated by Finland. And in fact, this latest book I've written, I've got a whole chapter about Finland because I think it's such an interesting country.
52:08and relates so much to some of the things that we talk about. But I thought she was fascinating about essentially what it's like to be Finland, what it's like to be a Finn with this history with Russia, with this sense of it being a bigger threat than it's probably been at any time in her lifetime now. And she was the one who took this huge step, something she'd never agreed with before until the full-on invasion of Ukraine, to take NATO into Finland. I just think that's, you know, in the end, politics should be about big things. And as you say, we didn't want to talk about, you know, videos of her dancing or we talked about a bit.
52:45But actually, to have been the prime minister of a small country that takes such a huge step, and also to have been a leader of a country which, you know, the old cliche punches above your weight, Finland does. Finland does.
52:57Rory Stewart:They do. And of course, to remind people, you know, we're particularly fond of the president of Finland and have done a lot of reporting on Alex Stub's theory of the world. She comes from a different political tradition. We were both actually in Finland together. I was really struck by the story that we don't talk about enough, which is how these countries have gone from being quite small C conservative to being startlingly progressive relatively recently. I mean, there's a big statue that we walked past on our way to the hotel of this man called General Mannerheim, who was the leader, get this to the whites after the First World War, and who, you know, was photographed with Hitler and was the great sort of heroic Finnish nationalist leader.
53:38Rory Stewart:But he was a proper kind of aristocratic general who continued to run the country at an almost Trumpian age. And yet we've gone from that to, as she says, when she was growing up, it was still quite conservative, difficult for her to have a mother who was living with another woman. And now we see these countries as the most progressive countries on earth. Yeah, they do. One of the things I love about the Northern European countries, they love their statues, don't they? They do like their statues. I mean, that walk, we had a walk from a hotel to a conference centre, which was what, about 10, 15 minutes?
54:11There were a good half a dozen really, really good, interesting statues en route. So, no, I think her personal background is interesting. I'll tell you the other thing about her, because she's now involved in the Tony Blair Institute and no doubt doing lots of other things as well. But when you become prime minister at 34, in a world where prime ministerial churn is fairly regular, where there aren't going to be many Angela Merkels in the coming generation, that means you're out of office, you know, very, very young. She was out of office before getting into her 40s.
54:46Rory Stewart:And also get forgotten surprisingly quickly. I mean, you go from being, she was a genuine celebrity. I mean, if we were doing this podcast four years ago, we would have used San Amarin and Jacinta Ardern as sort of ciphers for exactly the kind of progressive politics that people were interested in and as leaders to look like the sort of precursors to the way we talk about Mark Carney at the moment. and I don't know how you'd poll it but I imagine three years later a lot of people have forgotten about them and the world that they used to live in which is in 20 30 years ago they would have gone on to be the heads of big UN agencies it's almost exactly the career path that you'd expect a female prime minister in New Zealand or Finland to go on to seem to have faded away too those sort of international organizations have faded away leaving a question on what they do next yeah I I thought she was interesting.
55:38And, you know, this is a lot of what Tony's trying to do as well, is how do you build the arguments for the progressive left and centre-left against right-wing populism, in particular when she was talking about climate, you know, that you've got to understand where the populism is coming from, but you've got to address those problems directly rather than ceding the ground to those who simply want to scapegoat minorities, scapegoat Muslims, and come up with easy solutions.
56:05Rory Stewart:And I think that's what we ended on. And I think it's probably the most interesting political point, which is how successfully the kind of reaction or reactionary movements have been in making what used to be considered very straightforward arguments about human rights become somehow look like old fashioned, progressive, woke, you know, how unfashionable in a way, if you go on social media or read newspapers, things that four years ago were accepted by the majority of central opinion have become. Yeah. Do you think it does make a difference if you're in the room? Because it's interesting, when we did the interview with Kristian Fróstadóttir, the Prime Minister of Iceland, I was in the room and you weren't.
56:48I got the feeling that I liked her a lot more than you did.
56:51Rory Stewart:Yeah. I think it's interesting and it'd be interesting to make people viewing. When you're in the room, you get all the warmth, the body language, and you're fascinated, I think, by their physicality. Now, I hope that's not just you and me sitting there with women, right? I hope this is probably true in general. Keep digging, Rory. Keep digging. Keep digging. Yeah. But I do think there's a real sense that that compensates for what can at a distance be a bit flat. I mean, it's quite difficult to judge face-to-face what's going to actually work on audio. I've sometimes had times with you where I've thought, oh, that was pretty boring.
57:28Rory Stewart:And you said, no, that was great. I really like the person. And I thought they didn't really say anything. The question of whether, and it's particularly true to the politician, whether what they're doing is making profound and difficult points or giving you glimpses of the blinding obvious can depend slightly on how you're feeling towards them. Yeah. Anyway, there we are, Sana. We've done quite a lot of the old Scandis, haven't we, on the podcast? It's probably because we quite like Scandinavia. Yeah. I also am completely won over by leaders of smaller countries tend to blow my socks off again and again and again.
57:58Rory Stewart:but maybe that's because they've got more freedom to think. Maybe we should do. I saw a profile at the weekend of the Prince of Liechtenstein. You couldn't afford it. One of the richest monarchs in the world. And he's just made himself, he's given himself more power. Yeah, yeah. He's given himself more royal power. And he's so wealthy that when people protest, his people say, you know, where's the constitution? His father, I think, just said, well, if that's your view, I'll just move. I'll just move to Switzerland and then you won't have any of my money. Okay, Rory. See you next week. See you next week.
58:30Rory Stewart:Bye-bye. Take care, bye.
58:58Rory Stewart:We'll see you next time. Decor now at Wayfair.com. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile with your summer price forecast. Now, unfortunately, we're seeing rising costs across the country with possibility that big wireless hates you 100%. Now, over here at Mint Mobile, we're seeing sunny skies and dropping prices. Every plan to just$15 a month. Give it a try at MintMobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only.
59:36Rory Stewart:Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms. In the U.S., there's a break-in every 26 seconds. But when intruders step near, SimpliSafe Home Security steps up. Stop. This is SimpliSafe. Police are on the way. Using AI alerts, U.S.-based live agents help deter break-ins. SimpliSafe, no long-term contracts. Save 60 % on a new system with professional monitoring during our 20th anniversary sale at simplisafe.com slash spotify. Outdoor deterrence requires a SimpliSafe Active Guard outdoor protection plan starting at$49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com slash licenses for alarm license information.
1:00:07Tennessee 2012.
From the publisher
Following Putin's war in Ukraine, how politically challenging was it committing Finland to join NATO? What was it like becoming the world's youngest sitting prime minister at 34? Why did a scandal over dancing at a private party become a national and international story?
Rory and Alastair are joined by former Prime Minister of Finland, Sanna Marin, to discuss all this and more.
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