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Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Politics - Episode 34: Ed Davey
Episode Overview In this episode of *The Rest Is Politics*, hosts Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart interview Ed Davey, leader of the Liberal Democrats. The discussion explores Davey's personal history, his political journey, the coalition government experience, and potential future collaborations with Labour under Keir Starmer.
Key Themes
- Childhood Experiences: Davey shares his challenging upbringing, including the loss of both parents to cancer, which shaped his perspective on life, resilience, and empathy.
- Political Career: The conversation covers his rise in politics, including his tenure in coalition government and his views on tactical voting and party collaborations.
- Liberal Democrat Identity: Davey discusses the party's principles, the challenges of coalition politics, and the importance of maintaining a distinct liberal voice in a changing political landscape.
- Future of the Party: The episode contemplates the Liberal Democrats' role in potential future coalitions and their strategies for the upcoming elections.
Detailed Insights
Childhood and Personal Background
- Early Life: Ed Davey was born in Mansfield Woodhouse and faced early adversity with the loss of his father to cancer at a young age and later, his mother.
- Impact on Perspective: His experiences as a young carer fostered resilience and empathy, leading him to advocate for young carers and bereavement issues.
Political Journey
- Entry into Politics: Davey was elected as a Member of Parliament at a young age and became involved in various political roles, culminating in his leadership of the Liberal Democrats.
- Coalition Experience (2010-2015):
- Discusses the complexities and challenges of the coalition with the Conservative Party.
- Highlights the difficulty in balancing party values while trying to govern effectively.
- Explains how the party was often blamed for unpopular decisions made during the coalition, despite promoting key liberal policies.
Views on Collaboration and Tactical Voting
- Working with Labour: Davey remains open to the possibility of collaborating with Keir Starmer's Labour in the future, especially if it serves to remove the Conservatives from power.
- Tactical Voting: He reflects on the historical significance of tactical voting as a strategy to consolidate support against stronger opponents.
Liberal Democrat Principles
- Distinct Political Identity: Davey emphasizes the importance of the Liberal Democrats standing by their core liberal values while facing the challenges of a multi-party system.
- Electoral Challenges: Discusses why the party has struggled in past elections and the need to resonate more effectively with the electorate.
Economic and Social Policy
- Future Policy Directions:
- Advocates for a strong green economy and enhancing social care systems.
- Highlights the need for policies that address economic disparities across regions, especially in the context of post-Brexit Britain.
Reflections on Brexit
- Position on EU Membership: Davey acknowledges the party's pro-European stance but emphasizes the necessity of rebuilding trust and relationships with European nations.
- Internal Strategy: The conversation touches on the need for the Liberal Democrats to communicate their European policies more clearly to avoid division among the electorate.
Conclusion This episode of *The Rest Is Politics* provides a deep dive into Ed Davey's life, his political trajectory, and the challenges facing the Liberal Democrats in today's political landscape. His personal experiences shape his political motivations, and he expresses hope for the future of the party while navigating the complexities of coalition politics and public sentiment.
Key Takeaways
- Empathy and Resilience: Davey's childhood experiences fostered a strong sense of empathy, driving his political advocacy.
- Coalition Lessons: The coalition experience taught the Liberal Democrats about the political landscape's complexities and the need for clear communication about their distinct identity.
- Future Opportunities: Davey remains optimistic about potential collaborations that align with liberal values, aiming to create a more equitable society through progressive policies.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
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1:43Welcome to The Rest is Polities Leading with me Alistair Campbell and me Rory Stewart and our guest today is I'm going to call you Ed Davey not Sir Ed Davey I don't like all these honours. You can call me Ed if you like. I'll call you Ed, great, actually. So Ed Davey, who I'm sure all of you know, is the leader of the Liberal Democrats. And I suspect this interview may be a tale of two coalitions. The one that Ed Davey was part of under David Cameron and Nick Clegg, and the one that he might be part of, who knows, after the next general election, when Keir Starmer might or might not be Prime Minister.
2:17elected in 1997 and elected by 56 votes three recounts so pretty tense stuff stayed there till 2015 when the electors of serbiton decided they'd had enough of him in the coalition government of which he'd served in the cabinet kicked him out but he hung around and came back two years later and then three years after that was leader of the liberal democrats does that sort of sum it all up reasonably well it's a brief yeah i guess so yeah we've got to be brief but we're going to cover your whole life and times and i think i think rory tends to be the freudian amongst us he always he always likes to start with childhood oh good oh good so rory dig into the childhood alice is more on the kind of jungian side in this in this kind of relationship um so ed um thank you really very very much coming on i mean we'd love to start with a sense of your childhood and growing up and what formed you and particularly I think a very difficult, very challenging, very in some ways quite tragic family history.
3:19Could you just tell us a little bit about your early life? Yeah, I was born in Mansfield Woodhouse to John and Nina Davey. I was the youngest of three boys and my dad, he'd come from a sort of mining community in North Nottinghamshire, met my mum when he was doing his national service and he was doing pretty well but age 38 he was diagnosed with cancer and so this is sort of 70 71 I was four and he died within three months so my mum was widowed age 36 with three boys under 10 so it was extremely challenging for her I didn't really know my dad do you have any memories of him at all yeah one memory when I was picked up from play school uh he was in the back of the car with a a large overcoat because it was winter and he was obviously being treated and that was affecting him um so that's about the only real memory i have of him i do have i found that i'd been elected for a while i was going through some photographs of my lovely nana one day um 20 years ago and i found a press cutting of him and it was my dad speaking to the certainly nashfield liberal association oh lord in the 50s saying that only the liberals understood the nhs ah and um it was a real moment because i'd have thought he was a tory because he'd gone on my mum used to say he used to play snooker at the local tory club um but he clearly wasn't oh and that meant that you can imagine how that meant that meant to me Yeah, absolutely.
4:54Even if he was wrong, it's actually later. And then, so he died and then your mother died as well when you were teens. So obviously I was close to mum. Mum was bringing three of us up and then she got breast cancer, had a mastectomy. And then when I was 12, she was diagnosed with secondary cancer on her bones. And that's not unusual for women who have breast cancer. but it's a very painful cancer. And so my middle brother and I, because my eldest brother had gone to university and so on, Henry and I nursed her for three years at home. And yeah, it was quite tragic. It's a very, very painful disease.
5:36I have to administer morphine. We had a bell jar of morphine. Can you believe that in our kitchen? I used to have to help her put these pads on her body so she could give herself electric shocks to dull the pain. so it was quite it was full-on full-on care while i was going to school while i was going to school yeah and and this was this was you in your early teens sort of 13 14 15 yeah it started the the sort of full-on care when she was clearly terminally ill starting when i was about 12 and then she died when i was 15 um in fact i was by her bedside she was the last two weeks she was in nottingham general hospital they put her on a dementia ward which was not great she wasn't in hospice and i was there with my school uniform age 15 by her bedside and she died while i was there on my way to school so yeah that was obviously quite a quite a moment what what's this meant for the way that you think about life about death about families i mean how's it made you different do you think from other people uh well i think there's quite a few other people who go through difficulties let's be clear um i mean i was a young carer so i have quite a lot of affinity for young carers and it's an area that i've worked with cross party on i do quite a bit of work on childhood bereavement campaigned on bereavement allowances widow's allowances and so on i think for me personally when you lose both your parents you sometimes you can go you can go one of the various ways can you for me i remember we lived in a little bungalow just on the outskirts in Nottingham.
7:13And I'd go back there, first with my brother, I was under his year off, then I'd go and live with my grandparents in North Nottinghamshire, then my eldest brother came to study at Trent Poly, as it was then once, Trent Polytechnic, back in the day, and I lived with him for a bit. But I would go there, because we kept the bungalow on for a long time, often by myself. I organised the best parties at school, as you can imagine. But one day I remember being in the kitchen, it was before my O-levels, and I was thinking, why am I going to do all this hard work? Because previously I'd worked for my mother because I think kids do, don't they?
7:47Young people do. They work to make their parents proud. And this for me was a real Rubicon moment where I just thought, right, I'm either going to do it for myself or I'm not going to do it. And I had to sort of take the decision that it was, and I could have taken different pathways, but I decided to knuckle down. Do you feel that you grew up faster than other children do because of those experiences inevitably i think when you look at young carers and people who who lose parents there's a number of things that often come out from the research there's empathy there's a degree of time management because you're juggling lots of of different things i think resilience you have to be pretty resilient obviously and uh yeah that plays into your how you approach life and your relationships your work and you You obviously were quite moderately bright.
8:37You went to Oxford University and got a first in PPE. Fluked it, obviously. Can we come in on that? Because the next stage in your life becomes a very sort of conventional, almost success story. You go off to Oxford, as Alistair says, get a first. You become president of your junior common room. You become a researcher to the Lib Dems. And you find yourself elected into the House of Commons very young. You're part of basically the same generation as David Cameron, Ed Balls, Ed Miliband, but you enter parliament before them, don't you? You come in very young so that by the time the coalition comes along in 2010, you've been there for 13 years.
9:18I mean, you're really quite long in the tooth for somebody who's by that stage only in his 40s, mid 40s. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a bit before Oxford that's quite important in my own story and certainly my political story. because obviously my parents weren't around to influence me. I sort of thought they were sort of what we might call Heath-like Tories is my impression, but obviously it wasn't a big thing. My first political meeting was a Tory disco, a young Conservative disco, age 12. My eldest brother, who was the chairman of Nottingham Conservative, he dragged me along to this. Oh, Lord.
9:49And it was dreadful. Put me off them for life, I tell you. But the real influence on me, to be serious for a minute, was my cousin, a wonderful man called Peter Lawton, who sadly left us, who was very much into the environment, into conservation. He worked particularly in developing countries on family planning, the rights to women, female education, and healthcare, primary healthcare in many, many of the poorest countries in the world. And his commitment to global justice, to the environment, was something that really influenced me. And then I had a year off between school and university, where I traveled a lot, hitchhiked and lumbered around a bit.
10:28and I read quite a lot and I read a book called Seeing Green by Jonathan Porratt. It had one page on climate change and the rest on lots of other aspects of environmental politics and I went up to Oxford. This is slightly non-conventional, Rory. I went around Freshers' Fair and the only thing I joined was the Student Ecology Group and my first bit of political spin, Alistair, was to change its name to Green Action. Not bad. Not bad at all. a lot better so so that that was how i sort of got in and i you know i went to different places at oxford traditional i didn't like the oxford union didn't join the oxford union i went to oxford labor club didn't join that didn't join any political organization actually at oxford if you just said to the ed davy aged 18 19 going to university you will be a politician would you thought that was possible possible but not likely so um two of my finals papers was one development economics and development politics.
11:29I really wanted to work abroad, actually. And I applied to get an MSC in agricultural economics to see if I could be of use to people as opposed to just sit in a chair. And the then Ministry of Agriculture, Fishery and Foods, in their wisdom, didn't give me a grant. So I went around with my girlfriend at the time, I had a good summer, I got the odd job here, went and looked after my grandmother, my nana, because she'd broken her hip in Maxent. So I looked after her for a bit and then applied for various jobs. And I applied to the social and liberal Democrats to be their parliamentary economics researcher.
12:09I wasn't a member of the party. Who was leader there? Paddy Ashdown. Which one was Paddy. He was leader when you became an MP, wasn't he? Yeah, yeah. He was the ultimate reason why I joined the party. Right. Ed, I mean, so I think there's something really interesting and intriguing for people here about the tension between your extraordinary early life, I mean, the sadness of it, the heroism that you were showing as a young teenager, and then you entering what seems to many listeners to be the much more conventional world of being a sort of special advisor, I don't mean special advisor, but anyway, an advisor to a party and then becoming an MP very young.
12:46So there's a sort of tension between that real life experience for teens, but you never actually went out to do your agricultural economics in the depths of wherever. You've spent a lot of your life, I guess, within Westminster. One question is, how do you work to keep yourself in touch with the world outside politics, given that you've been in politics for so much of your working life? Yeah. I mean, to be honest, I'm almost an accidental MP because I could have ended up in development. I could have ended up in the green movement more broadly. I applied for a job at Friends of the Earth, for example.
13:23Lots of things I might have ended up doing. Even when I took the job with the Lib Dems in Parliament, I wasn't a party member. And then I didn't expect to get to stand as an MP. I didn't expect to get elected. So it's all been a little bit accidental. And I think that's meant that I've always sort of been pretty in touch with my family and my community. I mean I like to think well my feet are quite foam on the ground with when I get back home you know I have a disabled son who's now 15 is wonderful but he can't walk or talk and he needs 24 7 care and I think regrettably always will my wife's got MS so while she's amazing and a fantastic support does huge amounts you know that's still challenging so at home I'm pretty grounded because I'm a carer and have to think about the family the whole time and you know if you're a lib dem and i don't mean this in any disparaging way to labor or conservative colleagues not at all but you tend to get re-elected by being really hard working in your community in a way which if you're a labor mp a conservative mp you have quite a bit of a push you know from the national party you get much less of that in the liberal democrats and so you really have to earn your spurs and that means being engaged doing lots of advice surgeries knocking on doors, being as involved in a community as you possibly can.
14:45And to be honest, I really like that. I enjoy that sort of what we often call community politics. I like that bit, and that keeps you grounded. We do want to come back to talk about your son and how you deal with that as a politician as well as a father, as it were. But I just want to go back to 1997. It was obviously a wonderful year for British politics. Nothing to do with your election. but I just want to know because I knew Paddy Ashdown very well and you said that he was in a way the real reason that you really got into politics first of all your impressions of that government through that period when you were sitting as a Lib Dem MP but also whether you were aware of the discussions that were going on between Tony Blair and Paddy Ashdown about what I think Tony would like to have seen as a as the beginning is of a proper realignment were you aware of that?
15:34What's your views on that? And I guess I'm asking what you feel about the Labour Party today and how you see possible relations between you and Labour in the future. Well, let's stick first of all with what happened in the round of 97 and then 97 government. I think all active Lib Dems were aware that there was conversations. Part of that was because we were all wanting to remove this Conservative government that had been in power for a long, long time there were lots of things going on particularly in constitutional reform the scottish convention social justice commission a whole range of things where there was very clear an overlap between lib dem policy and labor party policy and there was a movement where there was a lot of encouragement of tactical voting and what we didn't mention about my university career was i was involved in tactical voting 87 so been involved in encouraging anti-concerted voting for a long time, Rory.
16:31So we were aware of that. But of course, you know, as soon as the election happened and Labour got this huge majority, many has felt, well, we hope Labour will keep on with its progressive agenda. And in many respects, it did, particularly in that first parliament. And I probably voted with Labour Party, Labour government then, more than the Excerpt Party, because we were agreeing with lots of the policies you were doing. They were in our manifesto. It changed over time, but inevitably, I guess. But, and this is really quite important, where there's a distinction between people like myself and even Paddy, who is my political hero, let's be clear.
17:12We were suspicious of a Labour government that had a huge majority, which wasn't delivering on things like electoral reform. You had the Jenkins Commission, where it wasn't delivered on. And so the key parts of that reform agenda, which never happened, and as we began to sense a bit more illiberalism coming in, particularly from the Home Office, the distances grew. But at the start of it, there was a lot of meeting of minds. So tell us a bit about the distances growing. And, you know, I've read some of the stuff that she said in the past, but it'd be nice to get a crisp, clear analysis about what, from your point of view, was less good about the second half of that Labour government compared to what you liked in the first half.
17:56First of all, the first half, I thought its biggest problem was it was very cautious. I mean, perhaps understandably so, given the history, but we found that we were arguing for more tax and spend. So for a period, we were to the left of labor economically because we felt our public services, where labor had actually historically now had a good record looking back over the 13 years. For sure. But in the, I'm not complaining about that. But in the first four years, I think you will also agree that there wasn't so much. Yeah, we had got elected on the promise not to mess around too much with tax.
18:34Yeah, and we were saying that you needed to do something. So we were already doing it. You had what we call the longest P in history, which is everything was going to go with this extra pencil. Well, of course, you would say that. I wouldn't. And I would say it was a very good policy to make sure that education was properly funded. and we spelt it out. And I remember, as our education spokes at the time, spelling out to Jack Straw exactly what we would spend the money on to improve people's life chances. And I was very much involved in that. Can I just interrupt and explain this joke to listeners who aren't in the middle of this joke?
19:08So the Lib Dems had promised an extra penny on income tax, which was going to go to education, and hence Alistair's joke about the longest P in history because he thought it was going lots of different directions. Yeah, because it tended to get promised for all sorts of things as interviews, press leaders of MPs. As someone who is the party economics advised for a long time who helped develop the policy and who cost the manifesto, I can assure you that we as a group of Liberal Democrats were very clear what we were spending the money on. And so there was that sort of criticism of Labour, to go back to your question, Rory.
19:41And then there was this degree of slight authoritarianism coming in from the Home Office, whether it was over civil liberties or over immigration and asylum in particular. Give us examples, because people don't remember this very well. Well, I think, I don't know exactly when it happened, but removing the right of assignment seekers to work, we thought was a really bad idea. We still think it's a bad idea. Assignment seekers still can't work. And we think that's bad for them, their health, their dignity, and bad for the taxpayer. And so we objected to that. That's a good example. We had Miriam Gonzalez-Durantes, Nick's wife on recently.
20:23And I've talked to Miriam lots, and I feel I agree with her about lots of things. And I've had this argument about what is a liberal? What does a liberal think and do that I don't think and do? okay well i'll tell you my what my lyrics i can really put it in a nutshell i think liberals are about empowering people i believe and holding the already powerful to account i believe that so it's about power and how you give power to ordinary people and how you make sure the powerful have to be accountable i believe that good well come and join us no because i do that well i think me is you looking through some of the stuff that you know just on the last couple of days reading some stuff that you've said in the past my sense of your liberalism is that you really don't like the nanny state i was very shocked for example to to read that you were opposed to some of the measures we were tackling smoking in pubs and clubs example let me let me but it was only one tiny bit of it so i voted for all your legislation the labour party's legislation uh to ban smoking in pubs and clubs, bar one little bit.
21:29There was one amendment, and most Liberal Democrats voted with the government, but it was myself and a few others who voted against. There were eight of you. Okay. Eight rebels. Thank you. And we voted because the concept was, if you were a smoker in a smoker's club, where in that club the employees didn't have to come in to serve you drinks or take away, and you could just be smokers smoking together, that you should have the right to do that. So is that liberalism? Well, it's about freedom and it's the state, whether you draw the line between the state telling people what they can do and allowing people to have some freedom.
22:07And so the argument on smoking was secondary smoking can harm you. But in the amendment that I voted for as a liberal, that wouldn't have been the case. There would be no harm to any other people. And I go back to my John Stuart Mill. Well, just before we get on to John Stuart Mill and this amazing Oxford finals paper, can I go back to this little disagreement that you had with Alistair there? So he's saying, look, I agree with you. I believe in empowering people. I believe in challenging power. I believe holding powerful people accountable. And your answer to that is, well, come and join us then.
22:40But obviously Alistair's answer to you was, no, no, wait a second. Why don't you come and join us? So what is it that stops you being a Labour MP? You're sounding very Labour at the moment. Why weren't you a Labour MP? Because actually for the sort of reason that Alistair was touching on then with the smoking, my impression of Labour over the years is ultimately they are more willing to trust the state far more than liberals are. And they do that on the economy, on personal freedom, on many other issues. And they say if the state is doing it, well, it must be right. Well, I, as a liberal, worry about that because that could take power away from people.
23:19And often the state is the powerful organization that needs to be held to account. It's not just private companies, but it can be the state. And that's the big distinction between, I think, the Liberal Democrats who really want to empower everybody. And sometimes that means pushing back against the state. You see, I guess my experience, I've got a lot of friends in the Lib Dems. Charles Kennedy, as you know, is a very close friend of mine. I get the feeling sometimes that Lib Dems are basically you'll be whatever it takes to be when you're fighting that election in that place. So, for example, give you an example.
23:53I was talking to somebody this morning about housing. And they were saying that they have a real worry if there is a Lib Lab coalition after the next election. because they think if the libs if you guys get all the seats that you need to get to be maybe part of a reforming labor-led government you can have to win a lot of these seats where at the moment your candidates are going around telling tories no i don't agree with building any new homes either um i'm gonna have to unpick i'm going to unpick a lot of what you've just said okay i'm very happy to take the nimbyism on because it's not true but first of all This concept that the Conservatives are consistent over time and everywhere is nonsense.
24:36I never said that. I never said that. I did not say that. And the Labour Party consistent everywhere is nonsense. You guys accuse the Liberal Democrats of doing that. And actually, I think you guys are more guilty. No, it's easier for the Lib Dems. So I just want to get that on the record. It's easier for the Lib Dems, though, isn't it? Because you know where you need to win. And where you need to win, the seats that you can win, most of them, you're going to be up against the Tories. That's right, isn't it? Well, it is true in this coming election, the vast majority of seats we can win and the seats we can hold are our opponents, the Tories.
25:07There are one or two exceptions, a Sheffield Hallam where we're against Labour, one or two other seats where we might take on Labour, depending on how the cards go. And there's a few against the SNP. But fundamentally, you're right. And I've fought the Conservatives all my life. And back to tactical vote 87 before I was in the political party. And I want to remove the Conservatives from power. and to take on the nimbyism i don't want that to go over that we want to build more houses the question is what type of houses and where the current system initially was very top down or the certs have changed that a bit but it's still very much a developer-led system liberal democrats believe in a community-led system we actually changed the law in government around neighborhood plans and interestingly this government's analysis of neighborhood plans where they've been allowed to operate have resulted in more houses being built, but more affordable houses being built that have more infrastructure and genuine communities.
26:05So we want more houses. We want the right type of houses. Can I just sort of pull you up on a really interesting... So I was a huge fan of the neighbourhood plan. And when you say you did it in government, you obviously mean you did it in coalition with the Conservatives when you were in the same government. It was led by lived-in ministers, but yeah. So I was very keen on it. Greg Clark was very keen on it. I led the first pilot in Cumbria with a neighbourhood plan. We got it through. We did the first demonstration of this thing. So what I'm trying to understand is how does it work with Lib Dems claiming credit for stuff when they're in coalition and then rejecting other stuff in coalition?
26:38How do we know what you did and what the Tories did? To be honest, Rory, I tend to find that Conservatives claim credit for all the things that we initiated, same-sex marriage. And everyone thought it was David Cameron's idea. It was actually Lynn Featherstone was the real promoter of that. If you talk about renewables, you know, Ed Miliband did a lot of work, but, you know, in coalition, Chris Hewn, myself, and the Liberal Democrats generally. How do we know if this is true or not? I mean, what I remember is David Cameron fighting a really brutal battle on same-sex marriage, taking on his party, taking the campaign, taking huge amounts of political risk.
27:12So, how do we give the credit to Lynne Featherstone? Well, you can read her book, and you can see how the genesis of that policy coming to the cabinet, and how we pushed it. And you're absolutely right. Of course, there were conservatives who worked with us. That had to be the case. It was a coalition. And on renewables, there were some amazing conservative supporters, what we did. I mean, I particularly remember a guy called Charles Hendry, I'm sure you know, Amber Rudd and others. But there were also on the other side, Rory, and I'm sure you remember this, George Osborne, Eric Pickles, Owen Paterson, all who tried to stop me on almost a weekly basis doing the things I wanted to do.
27:51And it became really obvious to me, particularly when we were doing offshore wind and we were putting in the system which managed to massively reduce the cost of offshore wind and made Britain the world leader in offshore wind. When we were doing that, with some help from people like Oliver Letwin, I'm very happy to give him some credit, but George Osborne didn't want that to happen. And I know this for a fact, Rory, because after the election, when the Tories got a majority, George Osborne took advices, is according to some officials who I won't name, but they worked for me and then they had to face a Tory-only government.
28:26George Osborne tried to cancel the contracts I'd signed for lots of offshore wind. He took advice on could he cancel them. Now, we had made them what are called private law contracts. It's a bit geeky, but it meant that if they had cancelled them, they would have had to pay to the developer the whole value of the contract. So we stopped George George Osborne, by the way we designed the policy, stopped him stopping the offshore wind revolution. So I can prove the Tories tried to get in the way. I won't keep teasing you on this, but I guess, listening to this, I fear some listeners may feel that this is one of the continual challenges for the Lib Dems, isn't it?
29:02The increasingly detailed attempts to try to explain exactly what you were responsible for in the coalition and what the other lot were responsible and what George Osborne saw and what others saw. I mean, is that a big political communications challenge for you that you find yourselves being blamed for the bad bits and not getting the credit for the good bits? To be honest, when I knock on doors around the country, when we campaign in by-elections, local elections, we pay off the general election, people are not talking about what happened 10 years ago. I know this program, of course, we all think about it, but the electorate, they've moved on.
29:33You know, they've had to suffer Brexit. They've had to suffer, you know, the pandemic. They've had to suffer all these conservative prime ministers who are all completely and utterly hopeless. And they want to know what you're going to do for the issues that matter to them today and tomorrow. And that's the cost of living is number one. How are they going to pay for their bills? It's things like the NHS and care. and so as leader of a political party i'm i think understandably focusing on what is the concerns of the electorate and almost no one says you know what happened in 2012 what they might do what they might do what people might do is say oh i didn't really much enjoy that coalition experience i don't think that worked very well some might say they thought it worked well but i think what people want to know is how could a party that supported people like george osborne and propped up people like David Cameron and George Osborne, are we now going to trust those people to prop up a totally different sort of government?
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30:29I mean, I want them to be a totally different sort of government. But deep down, you surely want the numbers to fall in a way that you go back into government. Well, first of all, I think you are running ahead of yourself. Sure. Way ahead, if you don't mind me saying so. We've got to campaign for that election and make our case as an independent, proud party with our Liberal Democrat values and policies. You will focus particularly on those seats where you have to win. Of course, that's rational. What we all do, isn't it? But going back to the Conservative Coalition, let's remember, and I'm glad I'm able to put this on the record yet again.
31:09I fought the Conservatives all my life. being in coalition government for me at least and for a number of my colleagues was extremely difficult it was one of the most difficult things that i've done in my political career because i disagreed with them with with some of them a lot not with people like rory actually and there were a few that helped make it work most of them have been expelled from the conservative party by boris johnson but you went through the coalition you've described it as an experience you didn't particularly enjoy but the truth is for you to get power the ability to make change for the people who vote for you again, you're probably going to have to do it with a Labour-led government.
31:46Otherwise, I mean, if Labour get another landslide, you're going to have less power, less ability to make change. So therefore, is there not a part of you that wants that to happen? Well, I think there's several things to say about that. First of all, from the opposition benches, you can make change and influence people. I've heard you, in a number of areas, talk about campaigning MPs, David Steele, the Abortion Act, most recently Vera Hobb House, you know, Liberal Democrat MPs making difference and making change. Right. So let's be clear. It's not all about getting into government. But the other thing I'd say about this whole future debate is having been around a long time, as you kindly reminded me, I've seen a lot of Liberal Democrat leaders approach elections.
32:33Seven. You've seen seven. Indeed. And that's quite a lot, actually. And the thing that I've noticed, the most successful ones don't spend all their time worrying about what happens after the election. Agreed. The most successful ones focus on their job in hand. In my case, being as many conservative MPs as possible and talking to the voters, rebuilding that trust, setting out our store on the cost of living, on the NHS, on sewage or whatever it may be. And I think political reform as well, electoral reform. Therefore, making sure that however the cookie crumbles after the next election, we have many more Liberal Democrat MPs to champion their community and to champion Liberal Democrat values.
33:16And that is what I'm going to be laser-beamed focused on. Can you tell us what went wrong in 2015 and 2019? Because it seems to me that the basic theme of British politics is that it's in the centre. A lot of the votes are heaped in the center. Many of the people who listen to our show are in the center. So you would have thought you occupy the kind of natural space in British politics. I was a fan of Nick Clegg. I thought you did a good job in the coalition. You went into the 2015 election and you were completely destroyed as a party. Then 2019 comes along. You're handed this fantastic opportunity of running against two complete lunatics, Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn.
33:57It should be the ideal moment to make the case for the moderate liberal center because these populist extremists are running the two main parties. And again, you fail to pull it off. What's going wrong? Well, I think every election is different. And so, if I may, I think 15 was different reasons for 1915. We knew when we went into coalition was going to harm us politically. And we talked to our sister parties in Europe, our liberal parties, about their experience of coalition, because there are many have been in government, either as a senior party or junior party. And they said, look, if you're the junior party in coalition, you get the blame for everything that goes wrong and never get the credit.
34:33That's traditionally what happens in coalition. So we knew we were going to get a hit. But I think the biggest mistake we made was not to make it clear that we were pretty uncomfortable with aspects of the coalition, that we disagreed with the conservatives a lot. You have to do that, though, when you're part of a team. It is, because we were trying to make the coalition work, so you could cooperate. But the lesson that when you talk to some of our sister parties across Europe is that they said, you know, you needed to make it clear that you were having disagreements. I mean, I tried to get the wind industry to take Eric Pickles to court, you know, fellow cabinet member.
35:09So I was in total agreement. And I said after the 2015 election, because I was very loyal to Nick, because I think, you know, whatever you think about him, I think he was a brave and courageous party leader. I said, look, if you're in the middle, you've got to be highly visible. If you're in the middle of the road, you better put on a fluorescent yellow jacket. And we didn't. And I think we reduced and minimized the differences we had with the conservatives. And that meant people didn't see us as a distinctive independent party. And that was a huge mistake in 2015. Mistakes in 2019 were different.
35:45So you felt used. Do you feel that the Liberal Democrats got into power as part of the coalition and the Tories were playing you a lot of the time? That's how it felt to me. Well, I was trying to play the Tories. As I say, I fought them every day of the week of doing my jobs. And I tried to outmaneuver them. And many times I did and many other colleagues did. I think the biggest problem, the criticism I've just made of ourselves, was we didn't show and tell people about those battles. And I think that if you are an independent, different party, which we very much are, you need to make sure that people understand that.
36:25So can I fast forward to 2019 again? So we've got Boris Johnson, populist. He's come in, he's prorogued parliament, he's lied to the Queen, he's doing all this. He's challenging the Supreme Court. You've got Jeremy Corbyn doing whatever bizarre stuff Jeremy Corbyn's doing. Brexit is in full meltdown there is a huge groundswell of support for a moderate liberal centre ground in British politics to take on these two populistic streams. Why is that not your moment 2019? Why is that not the moment where the Lib Dems come romping through to victory? I mainly blame first pass post system because, and let me take you through the thinking, because it's the thing that we grapple with in the Liberal Democrats and it's slightly different from you guys from bigger parties, right?
37:09But from our perspective, it really hurts us. And in the 2019 election, we found a lot of people who wanted to vote for us, particularly a lot of former conservatives who hated Boris Johnson, hated Brexit, and really, really wanted to vote anything other than the conservatives. But they were scared rigid about Jeremy Corbyn. And I think there an awful lot of seats that we might have won in 2019, but for people's fear of Jeremy Corbyn. And, you know, I think that's just the reality. And in the first past the post, you know, people have to decide who's going to be the winner. And, you know, you didn't need many people to, you know, decide originally they were going to vote Lib Dem and can't afford it because of Jeremy Corbyn, the danger of him becoming prime minister, even though a Labour MP couldn't get elected in that constituency.
38:01And they switched back to the Tories. And that's been a real problem for us. We tend to do better when the Labour leadership and the Labour party is more electable. Why do we do better in the years of Tony Blair, in the years of Gordon Brown? Well, because Labour was more credible then. When do we do badly when you have someone like Michael Foot and Jeremy Corbyn? And arguably, though, I think they're very different from Michael Foot and Jeremy Corbyn, Neil Kinnock and Ed Miliband. And give me an assessment then of Rishi Sunak and Keir Starmer. well um i think rishi sunak is completely out of touch he's a clear bright guy he's got more integrity than boris johnson though that's quite a low bar but i think he's prison of the conservatives he looks really weak to me and as i've made clearer on countless occasions i want the conservatives out of government and you know my job is to beat as many of them as possible next election so um you know kia i don't know very well don't wish you very well i observe of him like you do, you probably own way better than I do.
39:04He seems to have done a job with the Labour Party to move them away from the Corbynista fringe of British politics. And I think, you know, he deserves some credit for that. I still don't quite know what he stands for. But I don't know what a Labour government would do under Kirshner. And, you know, my job isn't really to worry about him. My job is to make sure that the Liberal Democrats perform as well as possible. So I spend my time thinking about our target seats but you said a moment ago that you do better when the Labour Party looks electable do you put Keir in the Tony Blair Gordon Brown camp was a Jeremy Corbyn Michael Foot he looks more by the way can I say as a friend RIP of Michael Foot I don't like saying Michael Foot Jeremy Corbyn camp but you know what I mean yeah well I think Michael Foot was a huge intellect right um but I don't know who said it was the the 83 manifesto was the longest suicide in my own history yeah yeah yeah that's what i'm driving at i mean um i don't think we know absolutely for sure but he looks a bit more in the camp of uh more electable labor leaders that that's what the polls suggest and i mean he's clearly very different from jeremy corbyn okay ed rory let's just take a quick break back in a minute.
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42:14the world. That must have had a deep, deep impact on your worldview, as it does for any of us who are going through our 20s and 30s, the way we view the world. Then the whole thing came crashing down, crashed down with the financial crisis, crashed down with the rise of social media, rise of populism. I guess, how have you come to terms with the crashing down of the old liberal global order? What lessons have you taken from it? What does that mean for what you're going to propose in the future? Well, I think that is an incredibly significant question. It's a thing that I think about a lot actually because you've got this demise of what you know i thought was a trend of improvement in in everyone's lives around the world and that the world was beginning to work together i remember you know the london olympics i remember the paris treaty on climate change there was a sense you know just a few years ago that things were moving the right direction even after the financial crisis and then we got brexit we got trump we got bolsonaro all the rest of the horrible stuff and it's a wake-up call i think to progressives and to liberals and those of us who i think from all political parties who believed in what you described as that global liberal order and the question is how do we fight back can we fight back i believe we can i'm a real optimist i have to be as a liberal democrat perhaps but i am a liberal i'm an optimist and i think we can, but we've got to be much smarter than we've been.
43:40So here's one example that I've internalized, and I think it's been interesting your views on this, to be honest. What the authoritarians do and the populists do is they speak to people's hearts, but obviously in a way which appeals to people's, now I would argue, their worst prejudices, but they use emotion. And what liberal Democrats and liberals and progressive social Democrats do a bit too often is they talk about the evidence and the reason, the rational argument, vital, but they never get to the emotion. And if you want to win in this global battle between liberalism and authoritarianism, you've got to take people with you.
44:23They've got to believe that there's hope and there's optimism and that you care about them and you're not some sort of liberal elite. And I think, you know, I'm sure all of us do, to be honest. I mean, that's what motivates us, isn't it? We want to make life better for everybody in the world. And therefore, we've got to be smarter in how we make our arguments. So, Ed, I'm completely with you that you've got to develop more emotional communication. But let's get to the core of the policy itself. How, for example, did the 2008 financial crisis change your view on economics? Looking back at the way you thought about the world in the 90s and 2000s, what did you get wrong about economics and what's the new economic analysis that the Lib Dems are going to present?
45:09I think the 2007-2008 financial crash was largely a financial sector crash. and I think the deregulation that occurred went way too far and I think banks and a lot of the various financial institutions that have grown up in London, New York and elsewhere were able to get away with blue murder and were not held to account. This comes back to my liberalism, hold the powerful to account. But within the liberal democrat sort of economic sliding scale you are a deregulator. You're a believer in the private sector. You're not a heavy regulator. Well, I actually, I think you may have got me wrong a bit there, Alistair.
45:55Good regulation can have a massive impact. Let me tell you a story from the coalition again about regulation. I was trying to regulate the private renter sector to require landlords to bring up their properties to a higher standard of energy efficiency. And the regulation that I wanted to get through would say that you wouldn't be allowed to rent your house out unless you met these minimum efficiency standards my biggest oppo in the toys was eric pickles mr pickles well uh once because because i had a few clashes with him and on this one he said to me at one stage ed me old chum regulations are communist regulations are communist and i said to him Eric thou shall not kill is a regulation and it came in before Karl Marx so I think the case for regulations in some areas be it the financial sector be on on climate energy efficiency the regulations case regulations is really strong okay so just come come back in I firstly huge congratulations on your amazing imitation of Eric pickles I thought that was very good We'd like to hear your impression of William Hague and various others, but that was very good.
47:06You don't. That was very good. But I want to push you one more time on this question. Okay, everybody agrees we didn't regulate the banks enough, but that's not quite enough, is it, to make a real economic policy that deals with some of the fundamental problems? Why did the Northeast get left behind? Why have we ended up with an unbalanced economy? So, what's the new economic policy that's going to be different from the liberal consensus, which we all grew up in, conservatives, Labour, Lib Dem in the 90s. I'm including myself in this. I was part of that whole world. Okay. I think I see what you're driving at, but I wouldn't blame the financial crash of 2007, 2008 for this bit.
47:43I think it was much longer running. And it was how globalization more broadly played out. And that goes way beyond financial markets. It goes in manufacturing, a whole range of different parts of our economy. And I think there you have a point. because I think globalization, people forgot. You mentioned the Northeast. I think we forgot regions of the UK, nations and regions of the UK all the time. I think it was really poorly managed and thought through. And if there's one area, I don't think they've done very much about it, but an area that's debated now under this Conservative government and leveling up, I think we all agree that we need to level up in our country, don't we?
48:28It strikes me that they've stopped even talking about that. But to respond to Rory, I mean, it's absolutely true. Some of the poorest regions in the whole of Europe are in our country. What Rory wants to know is what the Lib Dem will go to in the next election saying that the Labour and the Tories wouldn't say. Well, I would say a number of things. But I think, I mean, from my own experience, if I take what I think is going to be massive over the next decade or two, It's how we think about a changing economy to deal with net zero. And there's huge opportunities here. We could lead the world like we were leading the world in offshore wind.
49:05And the great thing I saw with renewables investment is that investment isn't all in London and the southeast. It's around the whole of the country. And we often talked about the renewables jobs we were getting in the northwest, the northeast, in Yorkshire, in East Anglia, in Scotland, and so on. And I genuinely think that if we did the right policies for net zero, whether it's in transport, electricity, heating, buildings, aviation, you could not only make us a world leader in many of these areas, and we could really be innovative and ahead in the technology, but you could use that as a vehicle for addressing some of these gross inequalities in our country.
49:46Now, let's talk about Brexit. It took a long time. I mean, as I was driving, Fiona and I coming back from France earlier today and I sit there and I said, right, we'll talk to David later. What should I ask him? She said, ask him who you should vote for if what you really, really, really, really want is for Britain to be back in the European Union. So what's your answer to that? well if you really want to vote for the most pro-european party in british politics who can exercise real influence westminster's you vote liberal democrat that may not be exactly what fiona wants but we remain uh in terms of a uk-wide policy you've gone very quiet on brexit you've gone very very quiet you bear labor don't talk about it you don't talk about it well and it's a disaster we it is a disaster i mean listen we campaigned against it i think it's disaster.
50:41We voted against the deal. We actually have well thought through policy about how we would rebuild our relationship with Europe. The challenge that we've all got to recognize, I think, is first of all, we've got to work out the language that we take people with us in this country. You know, we're talking about emotional language and dealing with the authoritarian debate before. We've got to find a language that's not divisive. We do not want to go back to the divided nation that we suffer and we need to take people with us and i don't think we're quite there yet in that sort of language and we're working hard at that right but do you do the liberal democrats want the uk one day to be back in the european union we want britain to be at the heart of europe he's answering your question there the the reason the reason why i do that is it's going to be a journey because i mentioned the language that we talk about this to rebuild the pro-european case in in britain i take that very seriously and we massively contribute to i think but there's also the other side of the coin which never gets thought about which is how european countries and politicians think about us you know the thanks to uh messrs johnson trust and sunak and the whole most concerted party with a few notable exceptions like rory they've just lost trust in us and you know they're going to take more than just a change of government to simply go oh right that they they the british nation wants to be part of europe again and we've got to find a way to reach out to our european colleagues and so when i talk about this as a passionate pro-european i talk about rebuilding that trust rebuilding those relationships so we can cooperate more on trade and security and climate and all the many things that are absolutely in our national interest.
52:34That sounds to me like a wrenching shift in the Lib Dems. I mean, I remember you in 2019 being the absolute standard bearers for rejoining the European Union. And it now looks like you're very, very cautious about saying the kind of things that somebody like Alistair would instinctively want to hear. And is that not a bit of a problem for your voter base? I mean, I guess there are many, many voters like Alistair out there who want to hear a party say, this is a terrible disaster and we're going to fix it. We're going to rejoin the customs union at least, or we're going to get back into the single market.
53:03We've got a plan to try to get it back in. Are you not missing out on 30 % of your voter base? No, I think we're really credible on how you face up to this issue. taking the UK with us because I don't think anyone wants to go back to those divisions and facing up to the reality of where European politics is at. But that comes from a very pro-European business. We haven't given up on the idea that cooperation with our neighbours is our interest. We're an internationalist partner. No, I get that. But both you and Labour I think are missing huge open goal in going out to the people and explaining, get you got to be, get the emotional language right they've been sold up up it's a disaster it's damaging them and their lives and their livelihoods and their public services and we've got to fix it yeah well i mean to some extent we we do say that but but very sotto voce well no because i tell you you know this you've been a campaigner all your life uh alistair when you talk to people on the doorstep what are the issues that come up that we have to address cost of living and cost of living health service health service are we Not exclusively.
54:14It suggests that they are. No, I don't suggest that. And therefore, because voters don't know that it's not just the European thing that's affected the health service. The conservatives have made a complete hash of it. Cost of living is not just what's happened in Ukraine and so on. It's a lot of very poor economic policies. They want to know what you're going to do about that. They want to know how you're going to help them pay for their food bills, their mortgages, their rent, their energy bills. They want to know, you know, when they're going to get a GP appointment. Can they get an NHS dentist?
54:44It seems to me reasonable for a political party who wants to beat lots of conservatives to point out where they're failing people on the issues that matter most to people. Now, in our proposition next election, yes, of course, we will also set out our European agenda. We're not hiding it. Come on, the Liberal Democrats. One other thing we like to do is pass policy. We have got lots of policy. What I want to do is to make sure we're connecting that to people to rebuild trust in politics in the Liberal Democrats. And that's why we are, a lot of our campaigns are reflecting the concerns of people.
55:17Okay, policy then. As quickly as you can, one minute, summarize your vision for policy, what the policies we're expecting for the Lib Dems. Well, we will focus on the economy. We will focus on the NHS and care. And we'll focus on things like the environment. There will be our issues. And within those, on the economy, we're going to have a very ambitious green strategy, environmental policies linked to the future economy. We're going to have a very, very ambitious position on trade because we absolutely, our trade position is in a dire strait. So we're going to do a lot on small businesses who feel pretty neglected.
55:54The self-employed in particular feel incredibly neglected by this government. So those are sorts of things on the economy. me there's plenty of others but they are some of our key areas and then i'd say on nhs and and care one of the things that i've said when i first became leader partly because of my personal experience but also because of my own analysis i think you've got to sort out social care and how families are supported in the care they give to loved ones given they do the most of the care in our country and if you don't sort out that you will never sort out the nhs so my my my sort of soundbite is if you care about the nhs you've got to care about care and that's the sort of professional social care that everyone talks about from care homes domiciliary care and so on with when you deal with that aspect of it but i think the family carers is is the bit that's not talked about enough the carers allowance is is a scandal it's so low the level of support the respite care is is dreadful and if you look at mental health among family carers you look at poverty if you look at the way women have to do far so much of the caring you know you can deal with so much in our society if you get a policy right for family carers now my penultimate question it won't surprise you is about brexit i would ask you this what on earth was joe swinson doing in gifting boris johnson the election that he'd been gagging for just at the moment when the people's vote campaign which you were involved in and i was involved in felt like it actually finally got the momentum that it needed and she comes out and says we're going to have this election because i can be prime minister madness i think that's slight rewriting of history if you do it's probably a major rewriting actually it's not it's not quite how i remember it but she basically came out and said this was the right time of election it couldn't have been a worse time to have an election well first of all people forget that the conservatives were quite capable of getting election themselves and there was a lot of nonsense spoken about they could have got their election that time when i reflect on on and being leader now for a few years i also reflect that jay was leader for a very short period she was uh took over from vince and had what four five months before she faced the electorate that was challenging for anybody for sure but she i've i just sort of feel the Tories laid a trap and she and the SNP jumped into it.
58:22Well, there were lots of debates there. And part of the debate was, is the election going to be now, in three weeks' time, in three months' time? There was a real sense that election was going to happen. It was a question of when. Some of us wanted to stick out for a little bit more of a chance to get a vote on the second referendum. It would have been another vote. We'd had previous ones. But, you know, I think Liberal Democrats would champion the case for a second referendum and we, you know, needed to push that as far as we possibly could. But, you know, these judgments are always difficult.
58:59But I think to blame Joe solely for that is unfair. Can I just come back then with my last question? I'd love to give you a chance to reflect a little bit back on caring for a disabled son and what that experience is like and what you've taken from that and and i think maybe how that was different from caring for your mother well i mean caring for my mother um was mostly fairly tragic i mean i got to know her really really well and so i became very very close to her because i'd sit on lie on the bed and talk to her for hours but you know she was dying she's you know there's not there's not a happy ending really um whereas for my son you know i wish he could walk and wish he could talk and i wish he didn't have his learning disabilities and so on but i have a great relationship with him and yes it you know like all parents caring for disabled children it's time consuming it's challenging and it's not has its downsides as well and it's pretty full-on personal care and it would be difficult if i wasn't a london mp i'll tell you because i you know need to be there but i have a great relationship with him and you know it might sound odd to you but we joke about his naughty parrot i I brought him this parrot that talks back to him, and it's a big thing.
1:00:14He's a naughty parrot. He is obsessed by it, and at the moment his latest obsession is Henry the Hoover. He likes hoovering his room and wants to do it the whole time. And so we have our little jokes, like I think most parents do with their kids. But my biggest thing for him, and I'm sure this is for parents of all kids, but I think it's particularly for disabled kids, is my biggest worry in life is what happens when I'm not there. Because I'm a relatively old dad. you know we are we work hard to improve his independence you know i call it first of all toilet independence and i had a red letter day a few years a few days ago a few weeks ago he went to the toilet by himself um he's speaking we originally thought he'd be non-verbal he says a few words now he's some amazing speech language therapist he's beginning to put sentences together so he can express what he wants so i want to make him as independent with all these amazing people so that when I'm not here, he can be as independent as possible and express his concern and tell people who love him and care for him what's happening.
1:01:19So, you know, I think when you are a carer for your child, I guess it could be for any person you love, you do worry about what happens when you're not there and you try to do as much as you possibly can without, you know, not going to live in the moment as well and enjoy that. um but you you have those you have to think and you have to plan something else fear and i were talking about our long drive back was um because we talked about about this and your son and what what that must be like because there were we we we weren't party leaders we were working for a party leader with three healthy able-bodied children doing well at school and yet found the pressures of parenthood, sometimes overwhelming.
1:02:07And I think Rory feels the same, that sometimes just as parents of healthy, able-bodied children, the full-time commitment that you need to work in campaigning, and you're going to be leading a party in a pivotal general election campaign for this country's history. I don't know how you do that. I don't know how you find the energy to to be the carer the the main answer is my wife right i mean emily is fantastic but you you're gonna have to campaign and at the same time i mean how much time do you envisage spending with your son when you're out in the campaign trail uh not as much as i like but you know we have carers who who helped us and that's challenging because finding carers is not always easy we have family who help us um and you know when you are caring for everyone this happened with my mother and it happens with john and you find people who were just amazingly wonderful and sportive i mean when my mum was ill it was the malhotra family across the road and the doubt is who were a few streets away who were just friends of the family who come with either curries or with lasagna or whatever they both got the names of labor mps something's happening here listen there Sue Doughty was a Liberal Democrat MP, so don't get too parties out on me, Alistair.
1:03:29Once a spin doctor, always a spin doctor. Just trying to get you guys closer together, just in case the numbers fall. So, you know, that's how you get through. You know, good, strong families. And the thing about my experience with my mother, with my grandmother, my son, is we were lucky in that we had a strong, loving family. and i worry about and i think we should all worry about are those people who've got these demanding caring roles where they don't have that support and you know i was talking about difference between liberal democrats and and labor people earlier you know sometimes the state can help and the state does need to support carers family carers and care professionals far more and you know it's one of the things i as you can see i feel fairly passionate about we're really fortunate you know we're not badly off we have the support network family support and elsewhere but what about those carers who don't and it's a serious issue because if we don't get this right if you look at all the projections the demographic projections and aging population and so on and the number of long-term illnesses that predict and so on if we don't get this right the nhs will be in a problem so i'm going to be campaigned come back to my policy next election, Rory, I'm going to be campaigning for carers.
1:04:50That's what I'm going to do. Very good. Well, thank you. I mean, I really, really appreciate it. It's been wonderful to have you be so wide ranging, so honest, so personal. And I'll hand back to Alistair for the final words and thoughts. Thanks, Rory. Thank you. No, I've really enjoyed it. And I hope that you promised me that you won't do too many of those awful Lib Dem campaign stunts during the campaign. Oh, many more to come. There'll be lots. Lots and lots. don't you like them i thought you love them i don't mind them i don't mind them but i think sometimes your your desperation for visibility can take you to some some dark places i think they put a smile on people's faces i think that's great so there'll be more of those yeah yeah good definitely all the best it's been lovely talking to you thank you thank you for wearing a burnley colored tie i'm a not scanty supporter i know all the best thank you bye goodbye thanks a lot
1:05:46So, Rory, Sir Ed Davey, qu 'est-ce qu 'on pense? Well, I thought, I mean, firstly, I think very, very moving and extraordinary, his experiences and the echoes between caring for his mother and caring for his son. And I think almost that's where he becomes most alive, where he's most fluent, where he's most emotional. I do still remain not completely sold. And I'd be interested in you as a communications expert. But if you can reflect on why someone like me, who should be the perfect kind of Lib Dem voter in the next election, what do you think he could have done more to really win over a swing voter like me?
1:06:26Because I liked him, but I didn't feel completely energized to rush out and put my tick in the box. I agree with you. I think he's very, very likable. You're up in Scotland doing this down the line and I'm in London and was in the studio with him. So have that sort of bit before and after and all that. But what I really liked about him is the conversations that we're having outside were very similar to the ones that we're having inside. There's a sort of, I think, a naturalness to him, which is very likable. That's the first time I've met him a few times. The first time I've had a sort of proper conversation with him.
1:06:59What could he have done for you? I think when we were onto policy, I got the feeling that he's still trying to work out exactly how the Liberal Democrats are going to position themselves at the next election. and also I think that I'd have liked a bit more maybe of you know I thought he was going to take us down the whole kind of you know science technology artificial intelligence route with a bit of detail but I agree with you I think where he really came alive was when he was talking about being a carer and and translating that into policy which by the way he is right there doesn't need to be that I just wanted a bit more of you know I guess economic education policy that kind of thing It does feel as though the election, I mean, without being unfair to them, but in a sense, Rishi Sunak, Ed Davey, Keir Starmer, all are sort of, you know, feel as though they're slightly tonally similar.
1:07:54They're quite sort of, they come across as quite kind of earnest. They're obviously projecting themselves as kind of diligent. So there's nobody going into that next election who's really, I think, ticks the old fashioned charisma thing. thing. But I also thought as an ex-politician that if somebody asked me, go on, give us a minute on your policies, that should be totally fluent. That should be just ready to go. You should have three sentences bang off the top. Our economic policy is based on this on trade, this on industrial strategy, this on regulation. My care policy is going to be based on this income, this expenditure, this change.
1:08:36I mean, because you're supposed to have practiced it again and again. So you can do your one sentence and one paragraph answer anything. And it's odd that he, he's not quite there yet. Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. I thought that was, he seemed to be thinking aloud a little bit to me. I've not heard him do many long form interviews. I've not really heard him before talking about his childhood in that way. I've not heard him talk really much about his son. I suspect that they came into that interview thinking, right, well, this is a long interview. We're talking to people, to a very politically engaged audience.
1:09:11The one thing I was interested in, I think he didn't want to come over as a sort of retail politician coming on a program like this and thinking, right, now I must land the right soundbite. It's interesting when he talked about a soundbite, he actually said, you know, the soundbite I use is. And I always said to him, look, you know, because Keir Starber does that as well. He often, he'll get a question in an interview and he'll say, as I've said many times before. And, you know, it's a way of saying, I'm a bit embarrassed to say this because it's a line. But actually, part of the art of political communication is just say it like it's the first time you've ever said it.
1:09:48You've got to embrace it and believe it with conviction because you've got to be proud of it because your job is to communicate and translate. And I mean, it would be, I mean, you need the faith. I mean, it's true that I guess if you were a priest, you're not embarrassed reciting your creed that's that's the deal that's what your job is he did quote one of the ten commandments though didn't he that's right that's right to eric pickles no less i don't know if you know this he was born on christmas day no goodness well there's that he could do something with that that could be a real lib dem campaign stunt absolutely god knows what anyway but i did i i did like him though i found him very very likable Yeah, I really warmed him.
1:10:31I really warmed him. And I thought his personal story is extraordinary. And of course, it's reassuring having somebody like that running. I mean, I think he will be a deeply reassuring figure. He's somebody who I'm sure would, you know, be a really good person in government. It's unfortunate in a sense that he's running an election in which that's sort of what the other two candidates are trying to run on to, so it's less easy for him to differentiate himself. I have to say, I hope he wasn't being wholly uneconomical with the truth when he said that he didn't see Keir Starmer very often. I hope they see each other very regularly to say, right, listen, I'm not campaigning here.
1:11:07I put no money in there. That way, he'd take a free ride because I really do think that the country wants that to happen. The big driving thing, as he said, is get the tories out. So, best way to do that. 100 % and I think final reflection is just interesting that he's three years into it. I didn't quite feel that he was three years into it. It felt slightly as though he was newer to the job. I'm surprised that this is somebody who's been the leader for three years. Yeah, but you know one of the differences is this is why parliament matters so much. He doesn't get called at primeless questions very often.
1:11:40You know, the third party now is the SNP. Right. So the SNP leader gets two questions and Ed gets called every now and then. it's very hard for the Liberal Democrats to get visibility well thank you Alistair thank you for bringing him on I thought that was a really interesting interview and I shall see you soon see you soon
From the publisher
What was it like for the Liberal Democrats in coalition? Would Ed Davey be prepared to work alongside Keir Starmer in another coalition government? Is tactical voting a good idea? Join Rory and Alastair as they speak with leader of the Liberal Democrats, Ed Davey, to discuss all these questions and more.
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