36. Andy Burnham and Andy Street: A Tale of Two Cities

25:01Welsh Labour didn't go that way. They always kept more of a sense of, we're no, hang on, we're for the Welsh interest first. And I think Westminster needs to understand now, it's created these roles. You have to give people latitude to be placed first. And that will be true, hopefully, when there's a Labour government shortly. So we have a lot of international listeners and some of them will be sitting there thinking, I want to know more about these places. So I'm going to start with you, Andy. Can you say some nice things about Birmingham and the West Midlands and try to explain how you would think their distinct strengths are?

25:33And then I'm going to ask you to do the same about Manchester. I'm going to put those jokes aside. We do have a very healthy rivalry. But actually... And tell them some precise things. Different industrial heritage, different cultures. I think this is true of the English cities outside of London. all of them actually they have much more in common than what separates them and and actually if i uh i do the west midlands the black country culture as a warmth and a humor i think it's a bit of the irish influence as well particularly in birmingham the big irish influence in birmingham it's huge in liverpool obviously but it's pretty big in manchester as well and i think there's just a sort of there's a cultural sort of um commonality uh there between the the english uh cities and there's a sort of a, you know, people are decent and, you know, and the West Midlands in many ways would mirror large parts of greater Manchester.

26:25And do you feel any tension between, you know, a city whose heritage was steel and a thousand trades compared to a history of cotton or differences in art and culture or anything like that? Do you feel that last today? Well, I won't get on to football because Andy's going to be distinctly playing second best there. But the culture is the same things. The interests of Andy's residents in West Midlands, football, music, popular, they're the same, aren't they? They're the same things. I think there is a difference, though, when you look at Manchester. I think Manchester is different to Liverpool and other cities in the north in that it's always had an entrepreneurial spirit.

27:04People think back to that era, the height of Cottonopolis and the power of the city in the trading environment, but it always also had a social conscience. And, you know, this is a city that never walks on by on the other side. So I proudly point to the fact that it's the home of the suffragettes, the birthplace of the trade union movement, and the place where those cotton workers refused to handle slave-picked cotton. What have you done? What's Birmingham done? We've got a fine progressive tradition. Well, the first thing is we don't count first, second and third cities at all. We're sufficiently confident not to worry about their numbers.

27:39so uh the first thing to say just um on it is um and he's right when you look at the data and we'll come to some of the emotional stuff in just a minute but when you look at the data the west midlands of greater manchester almost identical so there is an obvious point here the issues that we're facing are very similar if you look at some of the big population populations are almost identical if you look at the economic output it's almost identical if you look at some of the performances where we're weak and we freely admit we've still got huge issues to deal with. We have very similar data. So it is, there's a huge commonality there.

28:14In terms of what we've contributed to the world, well, there's no debate. Where did the industrial revolution start? There is absolutely no question. Where was the heart of non-conformist entrepreneurship? Well, it was in Bourneville, wasn't it? I think we're going to get the first note of disagreement in this podcast. There's no debate about that. What do I admire, Manchester, to come to? I actually admire a confidence. And the truth is, we lost our confidence. The de-industrialisation in the West Midlands happened later than in the North, but it actually happened much faster, particularly through the late 70s and 80s.

28:44And we were left in a really weak place. Our sporting prowess fell away. Production of musical breakthroughs fell away. So at the same time, at the turn of the millennium, Manchester was finding it's cool. And we had some catching up to do. And part of my job has been to, I can't produce music or football, but I can make sure we tell the story in a more confident way. It's really true that though, just to say very quickly, I grew up in Greater Manchester actually and was in the area in the mid-80s when we'd lost a lot of things and it was pretty moribund. But when I got to university, ended up in a very different world to the one I'd grown up in, I all of a sudden had people saying to me, oh what, you saw the Smiths at Salford University?

29:27And I was like, oh my God, I've got something that they actually want. And it was like a, I remember that experience of thinking, wow, we've got things, we've got cultural capital that people in these really wealthy, affluent parts of the country want from us. And that was a big thing in my life. You know, those bands of the 80s kind of made us think, oh, hang on, we can be better than this. You know, we can lift our heads up a bit. Just briefly back on the political relationship. So you've had a situation recently with Ulez in London, where Labour lose a by-election, and the party nationally seems to me to be sort of turning a bit on Sadiq Khan, who's the same party.

30:07And the government, even though it was a Tory mayor who brought Ulez in, spots a political opportunity, and seems to me starts to turn up, not just tear up his Ulez approach, but entire approach to the environment. and I just wonder there whether that makes you worry Andy about this this point Andy's point about you know whether you've got decisions that you make positions that you take that your party doesn't necessarily like and whether that becomes much much harder to to manage if you have a Labour government and whether you've given that any thought I think it does become harder for sure and obviously I've had a degree of difference on on issues with people but I think you have to come back, as Andy Street said earlier, to the role.

30:51When I was elected in 2017 and then again in 2021, I was very conscious that people beyond traditional Labour voters had given me their support. And you just have to be clear that that is the case. And out of respect for those voters, you have to put the place first, even if that causes difficulty with your party. Now, even in opposition, you know, you will have differences. And I just think this is where the British political culture needs to grow up a little. It needs to allow the fact that there are combined authorities in the big English city regions now that are cross-party in their makeup.

31:29And we are doing things that Westminster needs to understand and get used to and not kind of always try and sort of slap us down or contradict us. It just needs to understand. Sometimes we will answer them back and sometimes we will say something different back to them. And that's a healthy thing, not an unhealthy thing. If you were going to be very radical and push for much more power going down to local regions, let's say some government came along in 10, 15 years time, wrote a whole new constitution and tried to really lean into this question. Can you give us two or three things? I'm not saying they're necessarily things you support, but if you were going to be radical and bold and you really wanted to do decentralization, what might they be?

32:08So the answer to this is about money is power. and this is the Rubicon that is still really to be crossed. Now, let me just explain. You said earlier on we've got lots of international listeners and they probably think this is a very odd conversation because if you were in France or certainly the US, the idea of powerful city region mayors is absolutely known and the French model of them either having been in national politics then going local or the other way around, it's just the way it is and we've got some fantastic examples of what they've done to transform cities there. We are in the infancy of this.

32:40We've only been at this for six years and we started from the most centralised country in the OECD by a mile. So we've just begun to swing back the pendulum to responsibility being taken near where people live, near the seat of the action. At the moment, the way it's worked is we have asked government to give us cash. And actually, I think we've both been pretty successful in getting money out of government to improve the fortunes of our regions. I've got all the numbers. We're very proud of it. But we're still asking. The real breakthrough is if we actually raise the cash ourselves. The thing is, Andy, as well, what you're saying is it's a radical departure for Britain to have more power in the regions.

33:25But the great city region that you lead and the one that I lead, these were the powers in the land in the 19th century. We were building the railways, inventing the railways, bringing through that big Victorian infrastructure. And it was a 20th century phenomenon, I think, that power was kind of more drawn back in into Westminster. The thing I would answer your question with, Rory, if you were to ask me, what's the big sort of change, radical change the country needs? We should, in my view, follow the German example of a written constitution in which there is a basic law. And that basic law requires an equivalence of living standards between the 16 lender of Germany.

34:08And I believe we need the same in this country in a constitution, which would be a new thing anyway. But there should be a requirement that there should be a basic equivalence between the different parts of England. And if there was, I think we'd live in a better country. Andy, where are you on a written constitution? something that leads to real the whole country thinking about how we can change our policies yeah whether or not you need a written constitution i will freely admit i have not thought that through but the underlying point is absolutely right here this is holding britain back as a nation overall and so this is a national crusade to bring about equivalence and that's why we've both got into these jobs and why all the levers have to come together to achieve this Have we also got to change our economic model?

34:56I mean, it sometimes feels to me as though the way in which the Treasury calculates return on investment favours places like London. Their very narrow model makes it feel as though the pound they put in here, they get more return. They're not thinking about social justice. They're not thinking about the environment. They're thinking about a very narrow model of financial return. Love to hear you on that. Well, you're absolutely right, Roy. You've put your finger on that. And if you had that basic law that I was describing, that economic model would have to change and you'd start to have to have investment on the social case for investment, not just on the economic case.

35:27This came home to me when I was Chief Secretary, 2007 at the Spending Review, where Alistair Darling had asked me to put a funding package together for Crossrail, now the Elizabeth Line, which I dutifully did, but said to the Treasury civil servants, but I want a whole range of regional projects to announce at the same time. And I got one, which was a feasibility study for the redevelopment of Birmingham New Street Station, which you'll be pleased to know, Andy, I did sign off. You signed off, and it's a marvellous investment. I don't crave all the credit for it, I just did the early thing. I said to the Treasury Civil Service, where is the list?

35:59And they said, well, nothing is past the Green Book, Minister. And that's when the kind of scales dropped from my eyes, really, because the Green Book is an economic test. So the projects will score higher where growth is already highest. So you're constantly giving more to more. And that has been the British economic model. And that is what has got to change if we're to see growth in the English city regions, which I believe they've all got the potential to provide. It's correct where you're both getting to. So, yes, there's lots of technical stuff in the economic models and they do need changing.

36:34But the big question is whether you put equal value on actually achieving the aspirations everywhere outside the southeast as you do in basically continuing the very high achievement levels in the southeast, which of course are a huge national asset. that is true but it holds the country back as a whole that there is such under potential in the rest of the country okay andy's rory let's take a break well i was down on my last dollar then i started saving because the bank said fiscal restraint is what you're craving so i put my earnings in a high yield account let the savings compound and the interest mount i'm optimizing cash flow putting debt in check now time is my friend and now the pain in the neck and we've Got a little cash to rebuild the old deck.

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38:03Leveling up, in a word, Andy Burnham It's the concept that I've waited all my political life for The sadness is that it's been a vacuous slogan And that makes me despair because as Andy Streets has articulated just now, it's what this country needs. And actually, it would bring a lot of people back to politics if levelling up was real. And it's not just about money being more fairly spent. It's about agency, isn't it? You know, power in our places, in our nations and regions. That's what levelling up should be. And, you know, it's sad, isn't it? You know, we had the last general election fought on, get Brexit done and level up the country.

38:46One has been a disaster and the other hasn't happened at all. Well, I say it hasn't happened. We're about to introduce a big change to our transport system. We're bringing a London-style transport. And I think it's going to be the great to manage to combine authority that will do the biggest and most visible act of levelling up in this parliament. Andy Street, do you agree that levelling up was, in the eyes of those who were using it, particularly Johnson, literally just a slogan without a strategy? No, I don't. I think that's the first time there will be strong disagreement in this podcast. I think that allegation is often made.

39:16I don't think it bears scrutiny. If you look, Andy's talked about transport, so let's use that as the example. It is definitely right. For decades, the resources all went into London and lo and behold, the productivity of London, just like any other international city that's had huge investment, improved dramatically and regional cities were starved. That has definitely changed in the last six years. The stat is we've got seven times as much money as we used to have for our transport investment. The government have put cash on the table. They've not given us the responsibility necessarily for deciding how to be spent ourselves, but there has been investment.

39:50I'll rephrase slightly, Andy. I'll rephrase slightly. There's been some moves in that direction. We've got some productivity growth in Greater Manchester that's higher now than the England average, to a degree. But if you really go with what that phrase means, level up, you're talking of colossal investment. You're talking the level of investment that went into East Germany after reunification, you know, because such is the divide. It's not been the driving mission of this government. No, I didn't say it had. But you said it was just a slogan. And I do not agree with that. I think for Johnson it was.

40:23If you look at what Michael Gove has done consistently, we talk about the cash over redistribution. distribution. But there are also issues to do with private business, where it is located, going back to what Andy said about the 19th century. That's what drove the cities of outside London, a vibrant private sector. The efforts around inward investment outside London have been good. I can prove you more business has come in, more investment has come in as a result of that. That will drive opportunities in the West Midlands. If I look at the improvement of the qualifications of our workforce so that we can attract those people, if I look at the way in which R &D has gone into our universities, some of those long-term determinants, there is a positive story.

41:02One thing that you said I thought was very interesting is... Only one. No, no, there's many interesting things, but just the last answer was about the way in which you didn't feel that necessarily you had the full decision about how the investment worked. My intuition is that industrial strategies work best when they're more decentralized, they're more local, when there's more flexible control because you know your place best what would it take to shift to a model of industrial strategies where you as examples of people the two andes had more control over the local application give us a sense of what a good yeah give me one industrial strategy in birmingham one from manchester that i can get my head around with pleasure yeah and rory this won't be unfamiliar to you because in theresa may's day with um greg clark as secretary of state our two regions were the pilots for having regional industrial strategies i was a huge believer in them and even though the national government has moved away from them we have not we call it our plan for growth for the west midlands and what it does to answer your question head on it chooses the clusters where we have a competitive advantage not just against manchester and liverpool but against boston and barcelona and everywhere else and their fast-growing areas give us an example from you and then an example from Manchester.

42:16So I'll give you four straight at the top of my head. Logistics really strong. Of course, elements of professional services, aerospace manufacturing, and the biggest one of all for us, electric vehicle manufacturing. Very much. So I'm going to talk about an enabling policy for a good industrial strategy, and that is technical education. When we had the recent negotiation with Michael Gove, and absolutely, Andy, I will say Michael has been a big supporter, hasn't he? And fair enough, He helped us bring through a new trailblazer set of powers, which we appreciated. We said to Michael, we need technical education at the top, because when investors are talking about coming to Greater Manchester, the biggest reason why they may say, we're not sure, is this thing about, can you get the people?

42:55Can you get the talent? We want to bring through the country's first integrated technical education system. In simple terms, at 14, two clear equal routes for young people in Greater Manchester. So one academic university route, the other technical towards qualifications in the world of work. You know, technical education has always played second fiddle in this country. It's always been the poor relation. And the reason why it's never worked is you can't fix it from a national level. The needs of the labour market in Greater Manchester are different from the West Midlands. Therefore, you have to have a devolved approach or you will never fix technical education.

43:31I've said I want a Greater Manchester Baccalaureate so that, you know, young people growing up in Greater Manchester and know what GCSEs, we're saying to them, those are the ones you should take to get the best jobs in the tech sector or in the green sector. And inevitably there's a kickback from Whitehall, but we're going to stick to our guns on it. We want to fix technical education and create parity between academic and technical. In your last answer, you mentioned Brexit. I'd like to ask you both what your sense is of what Brexit has done to the country as a whole, and then more specifically to your regions.

44:04Well, when I was queuing at Palmer Airport to have my passport stamped and it took, I wasn't thinking it was, it was turning out great. I'll be honest with you. No, personally, I think, you know, without rerunning the referendum, the decision to go for a hard Brexit has been utterly disastrous and has damaged us immensely, I think. And I'll just give you one example so that it's not rhetoric. Let me give you a practical example. You know, I've mentioned it. We're world famous for our music industry. You know, that is one of Greater Manchester's top exports, but it's actually one of the UK's top exports.

44:41We are dominant in that. So what sense is there in turning down the offer of visa-free access for our musicians to Europe? I mean, what on earth drove that other than ideology and rhetoric? And that's damaged our music industry. So I was no Brexiteer, as I think you all know, but maybe listeners don't. But my region was the biggest pro-Brexit region in the country. So I suppose, as Andy said, no point going back. The decision was taken, was democratically taken. There has been a sense of, and there still is in parts of the West Midlands, a sense of empowerment. It actually was a decision that was genuinely taken by the people.

45:22Now, that might seem an odd thing for me to pull out, Alistair, but I do genuinely come across it regularly. But economically? Economically, the situation is very clear that it was damaging to the West Midlands. Being the export capital of the UK, higher proportion of our GDP from exports than anybody else, our exports fell away dramatically. The good news, not that I voted for it, is the recovery in exports in the last year has been quite dramatic. And we're almost back to where we were pre-Brexit. What are we going to do? Just this is probably my getting towards the very final question for me, and then back to Anastra again.

46:00What do you think about the bigger world? A lot of the bet around Brexit was we were going to move away from the European Union. We were going to get closer to big growing economies like China. And six years later, that feels very different. Chinese economy not growing the way it was. We can see defense and security problems with being too close to China, and we're beginning to think maybe we need to be closer to some of our European neighbors. What is it about big changes in the big global economy, Southeast Asia, China, the US, India, that might affect first Birmingham and then Manchester and back to Ardester?

46:32So you picked up India. We've had to make some bets. One of the things about this job is resources are not very plentiful and you have to choose what you're going to do. After Brexit, we chose we're going to focus on our relationship with India. It's paid off. record inward investment to the West Midlands last year. India, for the first time, the biggest investor in the West Midlands ahead of the US. And obviously, if you think of their growing sectors and some of our strengths, there's a real piece. So that mega economic piece has paid off. Tell us about that. How does that come together? Their sectors, your sectors, what sort of things are they investing in and how does that work for them and for you?

47:04They're investing in a lot of the advanced manufacturing sectors. And the things that they are most attracted by, again, linking some of the conversations together, is the R &D in our universities and the skilled talent that we have. That's why we have to keep working on that. So if I think about the 21st century and what are the big driving forces of change, it's digitalization and decarbonization. And where are those changes happening most? They're in cities. Cities are leading those changes. We're bringing that stuff through more quickly. And so Michael Bloomberg has been a big influence actually.

47:37And Steve Rotherham, I think Andy's had some connection with him. He connects mayors from around the world. And what you get a sense of, Rory, when you're in those settings is actually city to city, people to people relationships. And then the diplomacy that falls out of that is actually where it's at, really. Because if you're always doing everything through the prism of national government and the tensions that come with the UK-Irish relationship or UK-France, politics gets bound up in that and progress stalls. So it's been said, I think, by a mayor of the US that the 19th century was the century of the empire state.

48:09The 20th century was the century of state national government, and the 21st century must be the century of the city because they're the drivers of change. And English cities are not punching their weight on the world stage. Michael Heseltine, I think, you commissioned a report, Andy, didn't you, that said this. Free up the English cities to really get in that game of driving digitalisation, decarbonisation, and then I think we will re-industrialise the West Midlands and the north of England in a good way. My final question. Manchester, I think Andy Street, you would accept, has got two football brands that are a bit bigger.

48:47Yes. You'd accept that? Okay. For now, but what's the question I would say? That's a question. Always sub-mitential. The Villa are on the way back. The Villa are on the way back. The Villa are on the way back. I'll have battered Burnley. I'll give you that. So that Manchester football gives you something that is very, very powerful globally. I'm not saying that Villa isn't a big name and Birmingham City in its own way, especially now you've got Tom Brady involved. Yeah, yeah. Watch this space. Okay, okay. What I want to ask you is about big moments and big events. So both of your cities have done the Commonwealth Games in the recent past.

49:19I just wonder what you get out of those. And the reason I ask that is because I don't know if you've seen recently a couple of cities pulling out of bids for the Commonwealth Games, including Melbourne. One, what do you think about trying to step back in? Did you get something very, very lasting and enduring out of that? So we watched with admiration how Manchester dealt with it in 2002. I was enthralled with how London dealt with the Olympics in 2012. So when the opportunity came for us, for the Commonwealth Games, we were going to win it. We were going to win that bid and that was it. And it's one of the lovely things about this job is the longevity of tenure.

49:57How long do cabinet ministers stay in their posts? We've both been doing this for six and a half years. We hope to continue to do it. And you are able to see these things through. And it is very clear that the Commonwealth Games has been an incredible success for Birmingham and the West Midlands. We've done lots of research on it. The brand of Birmingham has been improved internationally. And lots comes from that. Where do students apply to? Where do businesses apply to? All of that. Where do tourists go? And it has got a long term advantage. So I would say to anyone who was going to do it and is now pulling out fools.

50:27And just one little postscript, which you'll love. The money that we got back from the underspend on the Games, we're actually now using it for all sorts of things. the legacy but one thing we just announced last week was we're hosting what they call sport accord which is where the international federation of all big sports including the olympic committee come for their annual conference a wonderful showcase we would not be doing that if we hadn't done the games well and i would agree i mean 2002 was massive for for manchester and obviously it created the infrastructure that supports uh manchester manchester city and everything that's grown in that part of East Manchester, the transformation there is just phenomenal.

51:05People couldn't recognise what was there before. I think this is where the mayor gets a bit boastful towards the end of the discussion. I think I would say we are the biggest football city in the world. We have got two clubs that are Champions League winners. Now, only you know this. Who else can say that? Milan can say it. I don't think Madrid can even say it because Atletico have never won it. So, you know, we are a colossal football power. And whenever I go around the world and I have been to India, as Andy has been, we'll be going to Japan later this year, the football clubs come with us. So we deploy our cultural capital very much on the world stage.

51:46And everyone wants to talk, well, they want to talk about Manchester United, mainly, I have to say, but City obviously are becoming, you know, irresistible force. But no, but both, obviously, you know, the power of those two. and often they will come together and they're great actually the way they engage both clubs in the life of the city. But then you go to South by Southwest as I did earlier this year and you introduce new order from the stage. I mean, we have got big, big cards to put on the table that kind of get noticed perhaps more than some of London's cards. And you're still traded off, my name's say, Ali Campbell.

52:17He's going to say, yeah. And of course, I was your sport. But I will make a date to come back to see you when the Villa are in the top four, which is clearly where we're heading. and are you a Villa fan of course and Birmingham City have fulfilled what they have to do and it's a breakthrough but the point about these big brands being ambassadors is absolutely right and the cultural history is part of that as well and we've tried to bring we have less strength in football at the moment but in terms of culture cuisine all these things all of these things can be brought in Peaky Blinders Peaky Blinders good for Birmingham a huge for Birmingham if you go to New York and you talk about good image yes and you talk about you've been to Birmingham away at St.

52:59Andrews I can absolutely very accurate you go to New York and you talk about Brum they talk about Peaky Blinders yeah sure huge I think Rory just sat here getting more and more jealous that you're doing these jobs because it's the one that you wanted to do as London Mayor but it didn't quite work out I would have loved to be a Mayor I think you've both of you have done such amazing jobs it's a real privilege to be with you both thank you and I'm a great admirer thank you thank you very much thank you

53:26So, Rory, our first doubleheader, us two with two others. What do you make of that? Well, I thought it was absolutely lovely. I mean, I actually really thought that Andy Byrne's analysis of Westminster and my sense of what I've been writing about, think about it, is almost identical. I mean, I've always loved Andy Byrne and admired him, but listening to him, I really did think, my goodness, I'm moving to Manchester. I think there's something so interesting about what could happen. and it's probably the most exciting thing in British politics it's the one time you picked it up that I was getting excited the one time I felt in the last few weeks doing the podcast I really want to get back into this like I'm interested in this there's something happening here that I really want to get involved in I see I felt that and it was interesting so for example putting to one side Andy Burnham's ridiculous claim that he used to do everything I told him to do I thought it was interesting for example he if you think about the people that he mentioned really, really positively, Theresa May, Michael Heseltide, Andy Street and the work that he was doing.

54:27He's definitely found a kind of new way of doing this. And I think the point he made, this is what we were trying to say about Sadiq Khan and who let's, and I get this, look, we were the people who tried to destroy Ken Livingston because we didn't want him to run. But the central parties have got to embrace this thing properly and understand it is about being different. And I really hope that Labour embraces in a way that thus far I don't feel they are. Yeah, I do think that's right. I think there's two challenges. One is that sometimes my friends in Labour feel that things are quite tightly controlled, that three or four people in the centre are running everything, and they're not really making the most of people like Andy Burnham, who I think are.

55:01He's become, I don't know what he was, but he's become an extraordinary communicator. There's a lot of charisma there. There's a lot of confidence there that Labour could be using. And I think the second thing is, let's lean into the formal package. One of the things he was saying as we were walking out the door is they're ready to go now they've got the delivery mechanisms ready if you give them the money they can deal with it that might not have been true 20 30 years ago but if a new government came in that really wanted to make something of this manchester birmingham you could give them the resources and wow they could fly andy street first time i met him very not like a politician really was he no but paradoxically it's something that i think you noticed when we were interviewing Musfa Suleiman, sometimes the people who aren't politicians can sometimes seem more cautious and sometimes a little bit more defensive than a politician.

55:50Yeah, yeah. I sense them getting a bit prickly with your private life explorations, which is fair enough, I guess. But I thought both of them, though, had a real, a genuine passion for what they're doing. And I felt as an interviewer, I mean, it was my fault as an interviewer, I should have realised earlier on he didn't want to talk about his private life at all. But as soon as I got him on to industrial strategy in Birmingham, boy, was he interesting, fluent. No, it was very, very good. I think we should think about another double pairing at some point. What about the Israeli ambassador and the Palestinian ambassador?

56:22Well, I can assure you there would be much less of the sort of I would like to pay tribute to my dear friend and colleague across the table. Anyway, thanks a lot. See you soon. Thank you.

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