50. Angela Rayner: From zero GCSEs to Britain’s most powerful woman?

34:31And in the constraints of what we're going to inherit, we're not going to be able to do everything we want to do, but that we can do things better and do different things. Alisa was saying when we were chatting yesterday that of the two big issues which have been talked about in the last couple of weeks, which is Gaza and Keir Somers' comments about Margaret Thatcher, the more difficult thing is Gaza, that in the end, you know, he can make comments about Margaret Thatcher and Sunday Telegraph, that's not really going to have an impact. But Gaza is a real thing. Do you agree that Gaza is more important than Margaret Thatcher?

35:00And difficult for the party? Yeah, because Gaza, you can see what's happening there. And everybody can see the destruction. They saw what happened on the 7th of October. They're seeing the humanitarian crisis that's unfolding. And everyone's desperate to stop. They can see it on their screen. Everyone's desperate to see that end. And that outpouring, it's an emotional connection to what's happening there and completely understand that as a mother and a grandmother. I completely get that. You joined the Labour Friends of Palestine, didn't you? So that was a cause that mattered to you. Yeah, I was a regional convener for the north-west of Unison and we used to put lots of money into the Palestinian cause and I still support the Palestinian cause and I still want to see recognition for the Palestinian state.

35:41But in the context of where we are, what Keir is trying to do in his limited way as the leader of the opposition is to get to a situation where those hostages that people understood what happened on the 7th, that people really understood what happened to Israel on the 7th of October, that people were butchered, murdered, raped, slaughtered, over 200 hostages taken, rockets still being fired into Israel at the same time as seeing what's happening to the Palestinian people. And he wanted to get to a position internationally and working with our government. So we spoke with one voice to get to a situation where we could stop the violence.

36:21we could deal with Hamas because they cannot be allowed to continue to threaten Israel. People in Hamas have said they want to wipe Israel off the face of the map. That's never been Labour Party policy. We, of course, want to see a Palestinian state. But Israel has to be recognised absolutely like Britain is, like Germany is. It's a state, it's there, and it has a right to be safe and secure. But the Palestinians do as well. So there has to be a long-term political solution to it. And Keir was trying to navigate his way through that to get the violence to stop, to the recognition of what the horrific situation happened on the 7th, to get to a situation where the Palestinians are protected as part of that process.

37:02but also in his chat a mouse speech which i thought was incredibly important was about the political steps to not pay lip service because everyone says well we want a two-state solution but actually challenge what's been happening on the west bank challenge the occupied territories and also make sure that we challenge where israel have been having rockets fired at it and that's been happening time and time again and also find that peaceful solution where we recognize the palestinian state that's what people deserve in that region i love the way you you can be disciplined with Jeremy and now disciplined with Keir because I think you're right you've got to be disciplined particularly if you're in government but I just wondered your relationship with Keir which is important it did seem to have a wobble around the time of the aftermath of the Hartlepool by-election was all the talk about the reshuffling.

37:47That's when I found out I'd been moved by press. Exactly yeah and you weren't having that. Well it was just disrespectful if nothing else. Moved by press means that instead of calling you and telling you you suddenly found out in a newspaper headline yeah i think it was more that time ran away with care and he didn't get chance to tell me before my team had a press inquiry about how i was moving so it wasn't the nicest moment of mine and kids but we came out of it stronger yeah we both came out of it stronger actually because you know you've worked with people before you have your hey hang on this is here's our lines you cross one and then it's like right well how do we work and constructively make sure that we don't get in that position again and since then me and kira have had a very healthy respect for each other and do you see that the sort of tony john prescott parallels i'm kind of john prescott and barbara cassily and a bit of everything in between i think even just kind of you know describing yourself as giants of our movement is pretty awesome to me but i just try and do my best i just try and do like people have put a lot of trust in me to be a politician and to be a working class female politician from the north i feel a real sense of obligation to not screw it up to prove to people that girls from my background are intelligent and can achieve things we can roll our sleeves up in any environment including male dominated environments and we can get things done and that's what my focus has been and that's what i continue to focus on is like no i want you know if we're lucky enough to get into government and nobody thought me and kia could turn things around.

39:20And I accept the Tories have helped us significantly in that. But nobody thought we could turn the party and change the party in the way that we have. We've got real opportunity to make real change in the country. And if we get that opportunity, I want in five years time for people to say, yeah, look, she's proven she could do this. Okay, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless. While being a part of legendary nights, from backyard jams to sold-out arenas, there's a song in every toast.

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41:02Can I sort of get something which sort of feels a bit more personal to me, which is that, I mean, I think you're come across face to face as a very, very warm, sympathetic person but in public for someone like me i really felt you know even as a voter let alone as a member i wouldn't really be welcome in your kind of labor party um so i mean why's that well you know you cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum homophobic racist misogynistic absolute pile of banana republic etonian piece of scum right yeah and do you want me to i'll explain that that was because they said i called tories that i didn't i was fuming boris johnson our prime minister who had made the most appalling comments, racist, misogynistic, homophobic comments.

41:47And I'm like, hang on. If I did that as a home help on minimum wage, I'd never work in the care sector again. That's my prime minister. How can you look down on people like me who would never ever say anything like that, let alone think it? If you said that, the stuff that Boris Johnson said in my local boozer, you'd be thrown out. You wouldn't get to the bar. You wouldn't get anywhere near it. So we got a prime minister who thinks he's a posh boy who looks down on people like me, who thinks he can get away with saying things like that. So I expressed it in the wrong term amongst comrades, but I was fuming because this guy was sanctioning people for benefits, telling people who were in food banks that they need to work a little bit harder, like literally criminalising people who shoplift.

42:34They put like tags on baby food. They put tags on women's maternity bras because people can't afford a maternity. You don't go robbing maternity bras. These are essential items that people needed. Yes, they shouldn't go shoplifting, but no realisation about the difficulties that working class people face and the pride that they have. they don't want to ask for things when they've got to get a handout people don't like that it's humiliating but he was going around making those comments and I said I said I will apologize and it was him I was calling out in his cabinet who was accepting it I said I will apologize and I did in the end because I didn't want people to abuse Tories because that was not my intention I wanted to call out Boris Johnson the hypocrisy I said I'd debate him and we can he can apologize and I'll apologise for my comments and we could have a full-on debate about why he thinks it's acceptable to make the comments he made and then call me out for calling him scum for it.

43:29Would you welcome Rory into the late party? Absolutely, absolutely. And I still have constructive conversations and relationships, friendships with Conservative MPs to this day. I just mentioned before, Justin Greening, me and her work really hard on sex and relationship education, Bill. Joe Johnson, he's Boris Johnson's brother. I get on extremely well with Joe Johnson. and I still do to this day. We opened up an arts college together the other week. So it was not conservatives that I had a problem with. It was with those people who look down on working class people who makes comments that, quite frankly, you'd be arrested for in the street making those comments.

44:05And he was our prime minister. It's like the hypocrisy just stunk to me. So, Rory, does that make you feel better? I'm not sure it does, Sandra. I mean, look, I detest Boris Johnson. He's a terrible human being and all that kind of stuff. But I wonder... Was it the scum word you didn't like? because the rest of it seems to be perfectly fair. You know, we talk a lot about polarization and populism and antagonism in politics. And clearly, Keir Sharma seems to be trying to lead a movement which is trying to be welcoming of people who would have voted conservative in the past. And I wonder whether this kind of, I understand your anger, I understand your language, but it doesn't emotionally come across to me as, great, this is a party I want to join.

44:44I'm going to feel at home. She's going to welcome me in. It feels like anger. Yeah, well, maybe I need to work on that a little bit more because you would be welcome in the Labour Party. And, you know, I've always had people, these people in my family, my family are not left wing. You know, I used to talk about it, you go to a family do and you have to convince the one, you know, that leans a little bit you kippy. You have to have that conversations with him. I used to say this at fundraisers because I recognise that, that people have different views. But where I mark the distinction was... Sorry, I'm being really unfair.

45:16But obviously, from my point of view, leaning a bit Ukipi is kind of offensive to me. Is it? Yeah, trying to win over a centrist voter like me. I don't want to be characterized as somebody who's leaning a bit Ukipi. I think that's just my point. It doesn't come from a Labour tribe. Yeah, it's like those people who have very different views on issues that I have. What do you think my views are? Well, I'm not saying you're leaning a little bit Ukipi. I'm saying that's what I used to say the analogy was. People in my family who have very different views politically. than I do. But let me give you the opportunity.

45:46What do you think the views of a left-wing conservative are, a centrist conservative? What do you think we think about the world? Okay. I think you think that people should be able to get on. I think you think people should be able to go to university and do the things they want to do. I think you care about the environment. I think they care about animal rights in particular. I think they want to see a public state that looks after people when they need it, but isn't overly utilised and isn't overly birdersome and they want to see you know people have lower taxes and and that I say the biggest analogy I would say the difference is is that they believe that people can get on by themselves and should have the rewards of their own success and wealth whereas I actually have a different view on that because I think some people I've been quite lucky I've had help and assistance but also I don't blame other people for their misfortune if they've not been as fortunate so I would say that's the big distinction between me and a more moderate conservative is it's not people's own success to why they get to where they are necessarily.

46:52Yes, there is a bit of that, but actually I also think that you also need to have a little bit of luck in there and you also have a bit of society and you've got to pay that back. That's the difference, I would say. Strangely, on that second thing, I very much believe it's about luck. It's more the right wing of the conservative party who thinks, you know, get on your bike, teb it. I mean, And I'm very much come from a tradition that believes that a lot is to do with luck. I don't think that when people are well off, it's because they've just deserve it or they've worked harder. I think that's more the right of the Conservative Party.

47:22So if Labour do, when you become Deputy Prime Minister and, God forbid, Keir fell under a bus, do you think you could step up to the top job? Absolutely. Yeah, I work closely with Keir now. Absolutely. Because I can make decisions and I can look at evidence. I don't think I know everything. that's the big difference and there's some people that go into those jobs and I think Keir's very similar to me like that he will always look at the evidence frustratingly so for some people because you know people think that I look at it from a purely sort of emotional sense it's not true I feel the great sense I understand where my emotions come from and why I'm hungry for it but I feel a great sense of responsibility to do my homework because of I didn't have a formal education because of my background so I do my homework whenever I've come to a position and I've led the front bench and the opposition in those fields it's because I've done my homework and I've made a decision based upon what I believe to be the facts and also what I believe to be the right thing to do and I've worked in a consensual way to get there and I've not been arrogant to think I know better than everybody else in the room and I think you see through the COVID inquiry the dangers of where you get to, regardless of people's academia or background of arrogance, when people think they know better than other people.

48:38One of the things you do very, very powerfully and which is very important is speaking for a part of society that's often ignored, people like your mother. But there are other bits of society which politics ignores, in particular, for example, prisoners. And I feel the public don't think enough about prisons. It doesn't matter enough in votes, but our prisons are horribly overcrowded. Both parties seem to be in a competition for ever longer prison sentences, locking people up more. And frankly, we don't have the room. They're built for about 65 ,000 people. They got about 85 ,000 in them. If you continue down the route, the Conservatives of Labour are going down, you end up with 120 ,000 prisoners and nowhere to put them.

49:16When are we going to hear Labour speak compassionately for conditions for prisoners? And above all, be practical about reducing sentence lengths so we don't end up with these overcrowded prisoners. Why the disproportionate amount of people from different backgrounds that end up in prison and why and how they end up there. And you've got to have a preventative approach because, you know, I talk about when I had my son at 16, he changed my life because he had someone to look after and he had someone to be responsible for because I had no self-worth. So I could have got myself into a lot of trouble when I was younger.

49:47I could have chose a different path. I was already leading that way, as I alluded to. There was things outside the school that I found far more interesting. So I was going nightclubs at 14 and getting mixed in with the wrong crowd. And I could have, it was quite dangerous. I could have been in a very different place there. But for the grace of God, I ended up in a different place and took a different path. But the challenge we've got in the criminal justice system at the moment, far too often there's people in the criminal justice system that have not been given an opportunity to get, whether they've got mental health problems or whether it's poverty or whether it's substance abuse.

50:20There is a lot of people in our prisons at the moment that, quite frankly, shouldn't be there. And the only thing that happens when they go into prison is they become more acute at being a criminal. It doesn't actually solve the problem. I agree so strongly. And 35 % of prisoners have been in care. 40 % have been excluded from school. As you say, biggest use of mental health, biggest use of poverty. But all I'm hearing at the moment from the Labour Party is being ferociously tough on crime, putting out stuff saying, do you think that people who sexually assault children should go to prison? Rishi Sunak doesn't under Labour 1 ,600 more people.

50:55I mean, that is different. There's most serious crimes. And this is, pardon the pun, our crime at the moment, that the government are going to release people early. Because our prisons are completely overcrowded. And they're overcrowded with the wrong, bear I say, the wrong type of prisoner. How are you going to sort that out? First of all, you've got to sort out the system at the moment, which are crumbling public services that are locking, off-rolling the kids, that are locking people out of the system from a very young age. and therefore you're storing up the problems all the way along. You've got to have a good thriving public service.

51:25You've got to have jobs that people could go into and opportunities. That's a five, ten year solution. But the problem you're going to face next year is prisons crowded, the bursting. And if you go around endlessly asking for longer sentences, not letting people out, you're going to end up with far too many people in the system. Now, you may over 10, 20 years be able to address the root causes of crime and address it from early childhood, but that's not going to deal with your problem in a year's time. There's other ways to deal with some crime. There is other ways to work within the system. Our probation service, for example, our youth justice system, our youth services, our social work, all of these avenues at the moment are totally crumbling.

52:03So part of our resource plan, part of our looking at the whole approach to how we support communities is about trying to do some of that work. These people in prison that quite frankly are in there that could have been prevented. Now, I accept you can't do that overnight. I accept there is a challenge in that. But there is also a problem now where people who should be in prison are not in prison because the whole criminal justice system is completely crumbled after 13 years of the Conservatives. You see, the first part of that discussion was kind of music to our ears because we're both obsessed about prisons and the state that they're in.

52:37And what I was, maybe this is wishful thinking, but what I kind of hear, and sometimes I think this about Keir, tell me if you agree with this kind of broad analysis that there's a possibility he will be far more radical in government than he has been thus far in opposition. Because I can't believe for a minute that Keir actually really thinks that the criminal justice system can carry on as it is, that the prisons can carry on as they are, that the probation service doesn't need massive investment, etc. But until he gets into power, by being fiscally responsible, by being serious growing up in a way that Johnson's never been, he's kind of playing very, very, very safe.

53:12well it's also realistic about what we can do care's been really clear that our number one priority is to grow the economy we're not going to be able to fix all of our crumbling public services unless we grow the economy otherwise we have to raise taxes and we're not going to be raising the taxes with tax burden on working people is the highest it's ever been for a generation so the challenge for us is to grow the size of the um the growth strategy that we want in the uk so that we can afford our public services and reform of our public services as well and And that's what we've said, because in a lot of these areas, there is a real challenge around reforming what's happening there.

53:47It's, you know, we haven't got enough probation. We haven't got enough early intervention. So we're putting loads of resources at the far end, which costs more money. You know, my mum, if my mum has a crisis, there's no outreach. You can't get an appointment with a doctor. She'll ring me. What happens? My mum ends up in A &E. She ends up needing acute care, costs loads of money. just give her some help when she needed it and then it would have cost the state a lot less to do that so you've got to be able to reform the system to get the intervention where it's needed most and you do get payback from that it takes a bit of a leap of faith as well because you know I did this in home care when I was the union official in Stockport we turned it around from a deficit budget to a surplus budget that we gave to learning disabilities because we were able to working partnership to keep people out of hospital who were reoccurring offenders of going back into hospital because they didn't get the home care so we worked with gp commissioning units who funded and it took a leap of faith from them to fund through because it's a different public body to give us the funding and let us manage it and we kept people out of hospital it saved so much money that we were able to give money back to the local authority i i agree so it works i agree but And it helps people when they need it the most.

55:01Well, I'm a question about whether you think it'll be more radical in government. I think it will be. I think it will be radical. But he's, you know, great British energy and, you know, the Green Prosperity Plan and the stuff I'm doing around New Deal for Working People. These are big reforms that will make a huge difference. The planning reforms we're making so that I can build council and social housing that we know we desperately need in this country. New towns that we've announced we're going to be doing. these are big huge reforms that will make a big huge difference for our country so i don't think he's lacking being radical i think the mess that we're in at the moment means that you also have to be realistic that you're not going to fix everything overnight and what have you got to offer for your friends colleagues in the trade union movement if they were thinking about voting labor what will the trade union movement benefit from a labor government well my new deal for working people is once in a generation opportunity for us to really rebalance tell Tell us about it.

55:54Tell us about the content. The context of it is that, you know, banning zero hour contracts, rights from day one, overhauling sick pay. I mean, some of the Conservative colleagues agree with me on these things because they see the imbalance that we have at the moment. You know, fair pay agreements to really tackle and setting social care, which is one of the most challenging areas to do it. But I know it can be done. And that's why I've said it. To tackle the scourge of low pay in those areas and terms and conditions and reform for training. so there is a huge package within that new deal for working people that will empower workers in the workplace who at the moment there is an imbalance now the best employers understand that my new deal for working people is brilliant and they're on it because it's good for business as well it's good for our economy there is poor employers out there who have poor practices towards their staff and it is damaging people's lives because you're You're not in secure work.

56:47You can't get on. You're in low pay. You can't exercise. There's so many people at the moment that you've got rights at work and they can't exercise their statutory rights at the moment. So those reforms will give people more empowerment in their workplace. Now, my final question, well, two parts to it really. First is what role do you envisage for yourself during the election campaign? I'll be out there. I know that. I know that. I know that. But the focus is so much on the leaders in these campaigns now. specifically how are you going to be a big part of that campaign? And then secondly, I guess, are you ready for the nastiness that's going to come with it in terms of a pretty desperate Tory party and their many media supporters?

57:29Well, they've been slow cooking me, haven't they, for a while. So it's not like I haven't had a few moments like that. Has that been helpful to be slow cooked? In the long run, probably. But it's very painful when you're going through it. I think the lowest moments was, you know, Boris Johnson. someone is it traitor bill and i remember during that period it wasn't long after we'd lost joe and we're in the chamber yeah and paula sheriff got up she was an mp at the time and she was in tears and she said i'm i'm getting death threats you know this anyway i was there yeah and some of the piling on that you get it radicalizes people the way in which our social media networks work at the moment it radicalizes people to approve their views and then also go that one step further so it becomes more of a challenge in this day and age to respectfully disagree and there's people out there that take it to another level and that can be quite scary when we've had two members of parliament in a very short period of time murdered in their constituencies it does make you think you know and certainly when I've had to take measures to look after my family that bit of it is it has changed me as a person I don't go out with my mates as I would do before and because I know if if i went out for a drink with my mates as i would have done as most people do every now and again you only need one picture of you with your eyes slightly closed because you were blinking and that's it you look absolutely there's this picture that goes around social media of florence welsh from florence and the machines and they say look at the state of angela drunk it's not me but it just illustrates the you know the yeah but you can't stop being yourself no i haven't stopped being myself yeah i am me but i also am aware that you carry a great sense of responsibility in the work that we do.

59:10And, you know, you just try and continue to do that. Can I, as my last question, your story is unbelievable, right? You're an incredibly smart, successful person who left school at 16 with no GCSE. You're going to get trolled for calling me that now. You do realise that. He doesn't mind. He gets trolled for far worse. Look at the jumper he's wearing. Look at the jumper I wear. I mean, without being immodest, reflect a little bit on what those qualities are because it's not the thing that normally makes sense, right? I mean, you wouldn't normally, and you must have felt this when you were shadow secretary of state for education.

59:42We're telling all our kids they need to do well, study well, get the GCSEs so that they can become Angela Rayner. And here you are as an example of somebody who didn't do any of those things. And you're able to talk fluently about labor history, about the economy, about this and that. So tell us a little bit about two or three things about yourself, which you think made that possible. So I think I had adversity growing up, but I also was nurtured by the state, other people that looked after me. and there was my nan looked after me in certain ways and my teachers did and going to the youth club on a Friday and and that being a home help meeting people that are professors that needed me the role reversal people professional people that all of a sudden in their last months of their life needed my support and out so I mixed with different people for the first time in my life having to be resourceful because I had to look after myself so I learned a level of resilience and I've got a master's in real life.

1:00:38I got a vocational PhD in real life because I've had to live it and I've had to go through it. And as painful as it is, when you go through those moments, I learned from a very young age is you can survive it. I learned from my mum's adversity that you can get through it. But I also learned how incredibly painful it is. And I also learned that you need to reach out and get help. Sometimes you can't do it on your own. Nobody can do it on their own. You have to do it with other people and and that's kind of what's got me through my life I'm very resourceful I collect people especially people that are different from me I'm one of these type of leaders that think I know what my strengths are if I've got a weakness I bring people in that plug that weakness for me so I understand that so I've just been incredibly resourceful person because I've had to survive throughout my life for different challenges but those challenges have not broke me they've strengthened me I'm going to check in that one final final question You mentioned Barbara Castle earlier.

1:01:38If there's one thing that you could be remembered for as a government minister, what would it be? Council houses. I'm going to build the next wave of social and council houses. Nice ones, green ones, ones you want to live in. Very good. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

1:02:00So, Rory, your next deputy prime minister, possibly. Sorry, firstly, without being too sort of obsequious, I was really impressed actually by how tough you were there. Because that's cheered me up. It makes me think that maybe when Labour gets into government, our podcast has an opportunity. I thought you were quite good at putting her on the spot. That's been quite difficult. Oh, I didn't at all. I thought we were having a rather polite conversation with somebody I really hope wins the next election. That cheered me up. That cheered me up. I mean, I think she's very, very articulate, very impressive.

1:02:32she's also a very skilled politician i mean clearly her whole background puts her in a very uncomfortable position with what the position kirsten was taken on israel gaza and yet her answer was absolutely practiced down the line but emotional emotional full of examples full of passion we've had a lot of um people saying that you and i both been trying to be doing this sort of well on the one hand on the other let's be reasonable about both sides etc and it's becoming quite difficult. Very interesting to see whether she gets any flack and pushback. I think some of my friends who are passionately angry and horrified by what's happening in Gaza will hear that and feel that she wasn't talking enough about what's happening in Gaza.

1:03:14Very smart as well, referring to Keir's speech, which was almost saying, I hope people go away and read it. But I also think the way that she's got to... So she came in, sat down, not a note, sort of no... None of that asking us what we're going to talk about. First question, straight in. Very, very personal responses to every single question. Also, her life is absolutely mesmerizing. She calls herself a working class person, but actually she comes from a much, much poorer background than most working class people. She's describing a mother who grew up in a family of 12, neither parent working, not sent to school.

1:03:51She really has touched something, which is a part of Britain that I I often feel that we don't talk enough about. In fact, it's something that always made me uncomfortable as a politician that often when politicians talk about poverty, they're talking about, as it were, the bottom 40%. But she's speaking up for the bottom 5 % or 10 % of society, which are in a completely different, you know, her description of her mother's house, the life she's living is very extreme. Well, I remember talking to her before when she was saying that when she first arrived in parliament and there was some of the Tory MPs who would sort of essentially say, well, it's the one from Shameless, you know, the Shameless, the TV, which is actually written by a guy from Burnley about kind of real, brutal working class poverty.

1:04:29And I think it would be amazing. I think it's amazing to be deputy leader of the Labour Party in opposition, coming from the background she came from and the struggles she's been through. But to get into government on that would be transformative for so many people in terms of aspiration. And particularly if she can speak up for that community, because I noticed that even when Ed Meliband was Labour leader, he didn't really speak for that community. He was speaking all the time for the squeezed middle. That's the community where you really see real extreme poverty in Britain. And there's a report out today I saw, I think OECD, but we now are at the top of the league of the increase in child poverty over the last seven years.

1:05:08And also slightly horrifying statistics that both in the US and the UK, average height of six-year-olds is declined by one centimeter. It's a Lancet article. So I think she's wonderful. And I do, I mean, obviously I do worry a little bit about the swing voter. I mean, she may not care particularly about the swing voter. I think she does. But I didn't think that she actually fully empathizes or understands where somebody like me comes from. She's trying, she's trying hard. She's like, you like animals, right? She's trying to think of things to say that are nice about Tories. Should I say how I would have answered that question?

1:05:44Yeah, go on. What would you say? Well, I think you have a real patriotic feel for your country. Believe in fairness, believe in strong defense, and actually do think that there are traditions that are worth preserving. But where there are people denied opportunity, there is a role for people like you and me and others to help them. That's lovely. And actually, Keir Starmer, I think, to be fair, does a pretty good job of pitching to people like me when he says, listen, I understand we need to be fiscally conservative. I understand the sums need to add up. We want to be compassionate. We want to help people, but we're not going to bankrupt the country.

1:06:18We're not going to go down some crazy kind of socialist dream. But of course, I wonder also for business people, what happens when they hear the talk about workers' rights and all the stuff that she's trying to do there, because she's trying to go beyond what you did in New Labour. Those will be things that will be perceived by some businesses and more restrictive on them. The Resolution Foundation report that we talked about was pretty strong on greater role for trade unions workers on boards and that kind of thing i think what's is interesting that i guess it's seeing things through the prism of your own life but it is interesting to me the the tony blair john prescott thing because i can see i mean john was a formidable politician no doubt about that and i can see kia and angela having a similar sort of dynamic the words together i think they should use her a lot in the campaign but she's not quite like john prescott is she she's different it's very different yeah very different i mean john would have given you some very different answers to you if i doubt john would have done the interview with you in the studio and can't we do it down the line but uh you know kia look here's from a working class background but he's sir kia he's the lawyer he's the kind of cerebral guy you saw i thought it was really interesting one of two points for example when she thought you were taking offense of what she said the ukipi thing she got quite emotional very emotional about her her kids and the disabled son in particular but in a very very positive way and i think that emotion even though it can put some people off you know you do hear people who say oh well i can buy keir starmer but not sure about the northern woman you know you do get the odd taxi driver sort of saying that but i think that emotion has got a real place i think she's a i think she's a star and she's a very very natural politician and i think she's probably one of the most impressive people on the on the labor front bench by a very long way i think they're absolutely right to use her i i still haven't quite got to the bottom of this extraordinary story which is as you say she got not a single gcse and yet she is clearly well there's one story she told in a previous interview about her mom who couldn't read feeding them dog food because she couldn't read the labels i mean you know to live you and you and i i've been in your house you've seen mine i can't imagine a house without books in it Yeah.

1:08:31She grew up in a house without books because her mum couldn't read or write. And here she is on the verge of being Deputy Prime Minister. This is the stuff of Hollywood. And actually, maybe you're right about the Prescott thing. So maybe just sort of finish on this. I guess John Prescott wasn't the guy who was out there trying to appeal to the floating voter. That was Tony Blair. He was tickling the party's erogenous zones. So Prescott was more playing her role, which is appealing more to the party's left. And it would have been weird for me to say to John Prescott. Not just to the left, but also to working class people.

1:09:01Yeah. But it would have been weird for me to say to John Prescott, what's your offer to me? How are you going to convince a soft Tory to come across? That makes more sense as a pitch to Tony Blair than to Prescott. Yeah, but what John would have said, what, are you going to vote for this rabble again? He would have gone straight for the attack. Whereas I think Angela has at least tried to formulate an argument. Right. And hopefully if she listens to the debrief, I've given her the best way to persuade Roy Stewart to come over to Labour. I'm still working on it, Angela. I promise. Good. Well, thank you very much for getting it.

1:09:29All the best. Thank you.

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