65. Albin Kurti, Prime Minister of Kosovo: Vladimir Putin, surviving prison, and Serbia

30:54What do you mean by in the center? Well, if you have a topic, if you have a subject, if you have an issue that you negotiate with your counterpart. But what's wrong with negotiating in the center? No, I'm not saying that not to negotiate in the center. I'm saying not to compromise in the center. So this is number one. So it's a red line? It's like an idea of a red line? Well, it's more like a guiding principle. I wouldn't put red lines. And second is, for me, it's very important during negotiations and deal making in general, and not necessarily only with international counterparts, but also in everyday politics and governance to its microphysics of different agencies and ministries, is make sure that even if you do a compromise in your, let's say, actuality of current state of affairs, not to reflect it in your potentiality.

31:48In your potentiality, in what you can achieve. So for me, I can get, how should I say, smaller at present with the certain idea that I can still grow fast and big in the future. One of the paradoxes that you're struggling with is that Vucic, the leader of Serbia. Your friend. Seems to have often very, very outrageous confrontational views about the world. You know, he's just given an interview on Chinese TV basically saying you're welcome to Taiwan. But he also seems to be very, very good at charming international interlocutors, charming, you know, American envoys, charming other Europeans. What do you learn from looking at him?

32:34How does this work? How is he able to say outrageous things in the Serbian press, but still keep such extraordinary international support? And if I can add to that, isn't there a danger that you have managed to make him more popular with the people that you might need to help you? Well, I don't think so. It could be. It's not me to say. I believe that this kind of situation also says something about Western diplomacy as well. I think that after Russian invasion in Ukraine, Belgrade, not only President Vucic, they saw that there are two dominant types of diplomats in the West. Those who will seek appeasement out of fear and those who are going to be utopian, thinking that precisely with Vucic, you're going to bring Serbia into Western camp.

33:30Because when you have an autocracy… So both the appeasers and utopians, though, end up acting in the same way, paradoxically. Exactly. So in autocracies, there is a certain magnetism, a certain attraction that one person decides it all. And foreign policy in autocracy is like children's bicycle can be turned the other way in any minute. So I'm going to go and talk to him. And I'm going to change his mind. So I think this attraction is a trap. and so you think he has laid a trap for because he is very clever you agree with that he's smart he's devious yes he's smart this is how he's smart and you're saying he has laid a trap into which bigger powers have fallen because in a sense he's giving them the sense that they can push him where they want him to go but in fact he knows where he wants to go but let us not forget Alistair that both his fear and love are towards Moscow go way more than towards Brussels and Washington, D.C.

34:35So in politics, when you have so much power, it depends so much on who do you love most and who do you fear most. So who do you love most and who do you fear most? Well, I cannot remember who do I fear most, but I love most Republic of Kosovo, our Albanian nation and especially Brussels as a double capital and Washington DC and London where we are now. Give again for international readers your assessment, listeners, of what Vucic's objectives are and what this type of Serbian nationalist wants to do in the region, in Republic of Tsarbska, in Kosovo, and what will happen if they're not contained.

35:19There is a big similarity between implosion of Soviet Union and Yugoslav Federation. The implosion of Soviet Union brought Russian Federation with tentacles in the form of satellite parastates, Belarus, Crimea, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and so on and so forth. Disintegration of former Yugoslavia brought a small quadrupus, not big octopus, but small quadrupus. And Republika Srpska is one of the key tentacles of Belgrade. Again, for international listeners, Republika Srpska is the Serbian enclave, which is part of Bosnia. Yeah, it's like Republika Srpska is a republic which is not a state within Bosnia and Herzegovina, which is a state and not a republic, you know.

36:04But perhaps the word babushka could also… But the key thing for the international listeners is Republika Srpska is not part of Serbia, it's part of Bosnia. And in the peace agreements in the 1990s, it was very important that the Serbian community would remain inside Bosnia. And one of the pressures is that Dodic, who is the leader of Republika Srpska, and indeed the government in Serbia, actually want to reunify Republika Srpska with Serbia. Yes, that's what they want. Joining Serbia, creating Greater Serbia, that now they call Serbian World. And what does that mean for Kosovo? It means that they don't hide their ambitions and they want to look dangerous, not just be dangerous.

36:48And they want to take the whole of Kosovo or northern Kosovo? What would their objective be? In the past, they wanted whole of Kosovo. There are people who still want that. But in terms of their actions, they would like partitioning Kosovo and taking the northern part of Kosovo. And there are still many daydreaming in Belgrade about that. You know, fantasy is not reality, but influence is reality. And tell us about the military confrontations. Explain a little bit to the audience about what's been happening over the last two years in terms of military confrontation. between Serbia and Kosovo on the border?

37:19When Albanians were expelled in spring 1999, there was this horseshoe operation. Now horseshoe exists, but it's just outside of Kosovo in the form of 48 forward operating bases. 28 are military, 20 are gendarmeria. And these people are in high alert. It took no other than Mr. Jake Sullivan to come out and publicly warn Vucic to withdraw these thousands of troops and modern technology that they've got from China and Russia in order to have Belgrade stepping back and withdrawing from the vicinity of our border. For example, they have Russian airplanes MiG-29, Chinese system FK-3, and Chinese drones CH-92A, all of this at the vicinity of our border.

38:04But thanks to Mr. Jake Sullivan, Belgrade backed up. Just to go back to compromise. So you've had this situation in recent days where the dinar, Serb currency, which is used by a very small section of your population to live, to pay pensions, to pay schools and all sorts of different things. And given that it's a very small part of your overall economy, isn't there somewhere where actually that is a place where you could compromise in the centre and say, OK, look, we're doing this for these reasons. but we understand that it's going to be very difficult for these people therefore in a sense not make such a big deal of it you haven't you've just made a massive deal of this and this is what is the latest installment of the americans and the europeans saying are these guys really serious about trying to work this thing through in a way that actually builds lasting peace and again to explain to international listeners just to set set the context so in northern kosovo there remains a Serbian population and some of that Serbian population want to continue to use Serbian currency, continue to use Serbian number plates.

39:10And this has become a real source of tension because the Prime Minister has been insisting they're part of Kosovo and therefore they should be using Kosovo number plates, Kosovo currency. First of all, this is a decision of Central Bank of Kosovo as a new regulation adopted on 27th of December last year. I had no idea that this regulation will be taken. However, However, I fully support it. Because? Because it is directed against illicit activities, financing terrorism, and formalizing what is written in our constitution, namely that the only currency as means of payment is euro. We did not ban dinar as such.

39:50You can own dinars and pounds and Swiss francs and dollars, but you cannot use them as means of payment according to our constitution. And 33 ,000 elderly Serbs who have been retired in recent years are taking pensions also from the Kosovar system in bank accounts in commercial banks of Kosova, 10 of them altogether, eight foreign banks to Kosovar. So they can, they have bank accounts. So what we're asking from Serbia, because our central bank wrote a letter to People's Bank of Serbia to find a smooth way of sending those dinars to new bank accounts and to exchange them for euros. As we speak today, euro is used in all the shops in four northern municipalities without any problems.

40:40Precisely because the preparation was going on smoothly on the ground, Vucic interfered because he saw the success. So it's not that failure on the ground caused his reaction on the country. Okay, but listening to you now, you're going from here, you're going to go to Belfast, and you're going to meet the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister and see how things have sort of panned out there. I kind of feel hearing you that, were we having a conversation now with Vucic, or somebody from the Serb regime, that they'd be giving a totally different interpretation of events. And that's what it feels a little bit to me like in the days when if you went to Belfast, you had one hard line on this side and one hard line on this side, and you couldn't ever see where they would meet.

41:28And I just wonder where you see things meeting in the future so that we don't end up in a situation where we do go back to conflict. This visit to Belfast has been arranged four months ago, and I'm looking very much to go to Belfast. I've never been there. And I want to see myself especially situation in two accounts. First is a joint community police. And second is shared education. In Kosovo, we don't have ethnic divisions. We have language barrier. I believe in multilinguisticism. I think that human beings are not meant to speak only one language or to live only in one place throughout their lives.

42:08So basically, we're going to move back and forth like our diaspora does, which is one third of our population. And we're going to learn several languages. So I just want to see myself reading a few books, listening. In a way, I want to see myself how the situation is on the ground. But this has nothing to do with dinar. And Central Bank of Kosovo already outlined a 10 steps plan for smooth transition within the three months period. So this is more or less settled. OK, but so much of this is about symbols. And in Ireland, it's been so much about symbols historically. So, you know, we've talked on the podcast before about the issue of the Serb car number plates.

42:49Is that, again, not something that you could say, look, we can sort this out without making a big deal? And I guess Anastas' question is, why not compromise on this? Why not bring them on side through compromise? If the source of tension would have been on the ground from below, I wouldn't have been this optimistic. All of the tension that we have in Kosovo is because of the autocrat in Belgrade. And he is nervous and in panic precisely because Serbs in Kosovo, they want to integrate because they see how they benefit from integration. And they are not 40 % of population, not 14 % of population, 4 % of population.

43:26And it was 10. And it was 10. So many left. Yes, many left, but vast majority of them together with Serbian police and army in summer 1999. I am prime minister of Serbs as well. They have 10 reserve seats in our parliament out of 120. Serbian language is official language all over Kosovo at every level of administration. Deputy Ombudsperson of Kosovo is a Serb. I appoint Serbs in board of directors in publicly owned enterprises. So we cooperate well, but precisely this success is increasing tensions caused by Belgrade, who is very worried that we're having success in integrating Serbs. You've talked in the past about Kosovo and Albania coming together.

44:13Can you tell us a little bit about that? Is that something you still believe? Why did you believe it? What is that vision? Kosovo and Albania are two different states, but not two different nations. For example, sometimes you have much more differences among Albanians within Albania or within Kosovo than between Kosovo and Albania. There has been this London conference in 1913, which has divided Albanians. And back then, Foreign Secretary Sir Edward Gray said, we did the great injustice to Albania in order to preserve European peace. And one year after we get the First World War, so much of European peace.

44:51So, for historical reasons, there is a certain trauma in us being divided. However, now, especially after Russian invasion in Ukraine, we see that nation states are not self-sustainable. They are not self-sufficient. Are they self-determined? Yes, but we need self-determination towards strengthening both European Union and NATO. So in this double capital called Brussels, I see the solution. So you no longer believe of unification with Albania? I don't want to exclude that, but I won as prime minister on a ticket of jobs and justice. And to be honest, that's what I do best. And can I ask, if there is an argument for Kosovo unifying with Albania, surely there is a similar argument which Dodic would make for Republika Srpska unifying with Serbia?

45:46I think that the analogy wouldn't stand because Republika Srpska is a creation of genocide of Srebrenica. So the Bosniaks, the Muslims, did not go back to the places where they have been expelled. So Republika Srpska came out of Dayton, whereas Kosovo was constitutive part of former Federation of Yugoslavia. We declared independence in coordination with Western partners. and for the first four years it was supervised independence in 2010 july 2010 international court of justice ruled that declaration of independence of kosovo did not violate international law but i mean i i think i suppose one of the really interesting things is you're you're creating a new nation you're creating a new state based on particular types of identity at a very difficult time in the world because almost everything you say has echoes with other countries you know the expulsion for example of palestinians in the 1940s from what is now the heart of israel suddenly reminds me of your statements about the expulsion of bosnia muslims who then didn't return to republika serbska notions of reunifying kosovo and albania do echo of course with reunifying republika serbska and serbia reunifying crimea and russia so what does it mean to be a nationalist in the modern world?

47:11And how can one tell the difference between good nationalism, bad nationalism, difference? Right-wing nationalism, left-wing nationalism. Well, I think one of the measurements would be whether your nationalistic attitude is for liberation towards equality with other nations, or you want territorial expansion, hegemonia and domination over others. So you have to justify your nationalism in terms of liberation. Because we can say that Charles de Gaulle, Frantz Fanon and Marie Le Pen, they are both nationalists. But if you put them in the same basket, you couldn't make a bigger mistake. So I think that we have to see it in terms of national liberation struggle and for the sake of equality in order to listen to the legitimization narrative of that nationalism.

48:04Do you not worry that if you don't manage to improve relations with Belgray that the whole vision that several of the leaders in that region have to try to work towards membership of the European Union, that that's just going to go for a generation? Well, I believe all of the Balkans should join European Union faster, sooner, definitely better. But it can't happen at the moment, in part because of the difficulties in the relationships. Yes, but one of the reasons why it is not going to happen soon is because the support for EU in Serbia fell to 35%. 20 years ago, when Zoran Djinjic was alive as prime minister of Serbia, student of Jürgen Habermas, Western oriented, then support for EU was 75%.

48:50Now it fell to 35%. EU cannot impose inclusion of your country. So both Russian Federation and European Union have history of enlargement. But European Union enlarges peacefully and Russian Federation violently. So you cannot join into EU if you don't want to join into EU. So there are needed democratic changes in Serbia. That's why I think that groundbreaking moment is Russian aggression in Ukraine, because the key values now of also identity building are the values, the foundational values of Council of Europe, namely democracy, rule of law, and human rights. Which brings me, I think, to you joining the Council of Europe and the power that that could have diplomatically for shaping you.

49:36And I think a second related question, which is, again, explaining to listeners how Kosovo and Serbia and other countries joining the European Union will solve so many of the political and economic problems and why this needs to be a priority for Europe. You join European Union in order to also contribute, not benefit. So I think that we have to prepare to contribute. This is very important. European Union should be homegrown, yet not self-made. We need help. But it should be built within each country. And to that end, I think that the values of European Union are very important. Market economy, qualitative education, human rights, minority rights, fight against corruption, good neighborly relations, and so on and so forth.

50:29So I think that, yes, values and interests are not the same thing, but they cannot be decoupled. So it is very important to have these values being built within our system and society, and in particular, efficient professional administration. And we had Eddie Rama on the podcast a few months ago, and you're both leaders of small countries who've got a kind of disproportionate profile in a way for the countries that you lead. But do you see yourselves as partners or do you see yourselves as rivals for Albanian leadership in the world? And how does that relationship work? all of these two plus brothers so partners and rivals and brothers three in one but even there you've had because the open balkan initiative is is sort of that's not progressed in the way that they wanted it to so at every stage you you have this the word that people keep coming back to is kind of you know knows his own mind but very uncompromising and never it's never quite clear where it's going to end?

51:36Well, we're both social democrats. We agree on so many issues, most of the time. But then when we disagree, that makes news. We do not agree regarding open Balkans. In my view, we need European Balkans. European Balkans is open enough, whereas open Balkans is not European enough. Because it's Serb-dominated. Serb-dominated. And it's like open Balkans open to whom? To do what? You know, it's like open to Russian Federation because Serbia has great relations with both Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping. So if you enter with Serbia, with the idea of open Balkans, Serbia being open to Russia and China, that's not okay.

52:16My final question. We are in a world now in which the government of Armenia has moved against Azerbaijan, where Russia's moved against Ukraine, where the rhetoric coming from Belgrade implies that there is an increased possibility of another conflict in the Balkans. What would this mean if this happened? God forbid, but if this were to happen, what do you think this would mean for Europe and the international order? When U.S. intervened in Iraq, I remember very well some of the Serbian media writing that if U.S. goes after Iran, that will be our historical window of opportunity to go back to Kosovo.

52:58now recently president of serbia has been quoting president aliev in azerbaijan that they have been waiting for 27 years to do what they've done so my question is should we count 27 years from 1999 which makes 2026 a dangerous year for us or should we count from now so in 2050, new attack of Serbia, we could be quite relaxed. I think this idea of waiting historical window of opportunity is a very problematic thing for security architecture of the Balkans. And here, I think we can be saved by building our own capabilities and capacities, but also by joining NATO. Joining NATO and EU is also a security thing now, not just a matter of citizens' well-being.

53:57My final question relates to the American presidential elections. So I mentioned that you've had words with Antony Blinken, but you really had words with the whole Trump administration. So how all the things that we've been talking about, what is the implication for them of either a Biden second term or a Trump second term by winning the election in November? Prior to last elections in US, I publicly supported President Joe Biden. I think that on one level, whoever wins in US, Kosovo will continue to be independent, sovereign, democratic republic in the eyes of Washington DC. However, things are changing fast.

54:43and people are worried. In the case of next elections, it's difficult to predict now. However, I believe that Kosovo and U.S. will continue to have excellent relations. We have them as indispensable ally in terms of defending and securing our country. And maybe we spent a bit too much time in thinking who's going to win in U.S., bearing in mind a quote by famous american filmmaker david lynch on president trump he said something to paraphrase him as follows you cannot combat him in an intelligent way so basically you may spend a lot of time in thinking which will not pay back if i read that Right.

55:38I mean, you must have a you've just been talking about the vision of Kosovo being part of NATO. But one of the big implications of Trump beating Biden again is the future of NATO. We have already fulfilled 2 % criteria. I have doubled support for military in Kosovo in terms of military equipment and also trainings. And we have, for example, cadets in Sandhurst Military Academy here. and in this respect the critique of former president trump was not in relation to kosovo but to some other european countries okay but i know that you're not this time saying he would support joe biden well you know it goes without saying in terms of i'm a social democrat i work very much with democratic party of u.s with ndi in kosovo but then again not only with u.s but But also within EU, I have to meet so many presidents and prime ministers who are from right wing parties, centre right and right wing parties.

56:44Well, thanks for coming to us. Have a good time in Northern Ireland and in Dublin and we'll keep in touch. Thank you very much. Great, great privilege to see you again and thank you for your time. Thank you very much for having me and for this great opportunity.

56:59I thought that was fascinating. I think it's really difficult getting across the tension there, which is that this is a man with a reputation as being very uncompromising and difficult, but of course in person. Very charming, very thoughtful, very highly intellectual. And of course, I feel deep sympathy for him. And one of the things we didn't talk about is that he's got a really impressive reputation on anti-corruption and kosovo is not an easy place on that and even his greatest enemies say that he's had a really clean record in government which is very very unusual well especially one of the first things he did when he became prime minister was to cut the pay of all of them no i think he's uh i know a lot of people in kosovo and there's obviously he's got you know he won the election big time he's got a lot of supporters but I probably know more of his non-supporters and they said exactly what you just said he's incredibly charming he's very clear about who and what he is and what he believes but I did have that very strong feeling maybe it's because he just told us before we started recording he was going to Belfast I just had that very strong feeling that it was like it was like talking to a unionist before talking to a nationalist and then we talked to the nationalist And if you imagine if we'd have had him and then Vucic, we're getting completely different versions of the same story.

58:22Yes. But it's interesting that thing about the compromising style. He really, because, you know, I wasn't downplaying it. In recent weeks, he's had France, Germany, Brussels, senior people in Washington, including Blinken, coming out and saying, look, you know, our patience isn't going to be here forever. If you want us to be a reliable friend, you've got to be a reliable friend back. And yet there was no give there, was there? No. And I think he must feel at some fundamental level that the compromises that are being forced on him, because, of course, you can imagine what international diplomats are saying is we don't want a war between Cosmo and Serbia.

58:54So for goodness sake. So are the bloody number plates. Don't pick a flight out of license plates or DINAR. Let's have some compromise here. But his view is that he is in the right. There is a constitution. There are agreements. There's a law. and he's buggered if he's going to make these kinds of compromises which he thinks are just run by a autocratic nationalist regime in serbia just trying to cause trouble and it's very difficult to know as a diplomat when compromises are necessary and when they're unnecessary and also if you remember on the q a recently we had that question about whether there shouldn't be more straightforward diplomacy where people sort of say what they think now he wasn't repeating some of the things that he said about these other powers but nor was he resiling and he was clear that he was perfectly happy to have good relations but he wasn't going to move on things that he wouldn't move on i didn't really understand what he was saying about not compromising in the center i didn't really get i think what he means is that he has central beliefs which won't be compromised on there's a core to him which won't be touched on i thought he meant he was saying that you know you might think the best way to negotiate is start here and start and then try and bring people together in the middle.

1:00:08But he's not. No, I think he has an indestructible core. He doesn't want to touch. I also wonder whether, I mean, he's a very, as you say, very thoughtful intellectual politician. But there must be something that actually works for a politician about being uncompromising. I mean, we're in an age where people are pretty fed up with politicians. Well, so you touched on the nationalism thing that, you know, he is a nationalist and he stokes the nationalism within Kosovo and the feelings that they're surrounded by enemies. And they'll quite like the fact he's not compromising. He'll get a lot of votes from people saying, you're standing up to them.

1:00:35Because he's great. he started four or five elections ago and you know lose lose lose then he sort of won for a bit then he was out again then he's back in but it's absolutely fascinating because the irony is that the most famous previous leader of Kosovo Hashim Tachi was a very very colourful character not considered the great clean anti-corruption campaigner of all time and yet was much more loved by the international community because he was seen as more jolly more engaging was uh i mean i i should say i think it is incredible that he's being kept in this in the hay without any knowledge as to when this whole thing is going to get resolved i mean one of these people who who i know who i his brains i picked ahead of it said um he said imagine you dealing with somebody that's kind of a bit jeremy corbyn and a bit jean-lique melanchol i don't exactly know what he meant by that he didn't mean the hard left thing i think he is a sort of he's quite left woman he's a social democrat but i think he meant absolutely i've got my views I don't move off them child of two engineers very kind of black and white it's like my view it was it was great and thank you for that great