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Podcast Summary: The Rest Is Politics - Episode 84: Denmark's Former PM Helle Thorning-Schmidt
Episode Overview In this episode, hosts Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell interview Helle Thorning-Schmidt, former Prime Minister of Denmark. The discussion covers a wide range of topics, including the power of centrist politics, the integration of extreme political views, the influence of small nations on global affairs, and her experiences as a female leader in a predominantly male political arena.
Key Themes and Discussions
- The Nature of Danish Politics
- Pragmatism and Compromise: Thorning-Schmidt emphasizes how Danish politics is characterized by the necessity for coalition-building due to proportional representation, contrasting it with the UK's first-past-the-post system.
- Minority Governments: She explains that no single party usually achieves a majority, which forces politicians to seek consensus and flexibility in policymaking.
- The Influence of Size and Global Impact
- Impact of Small Nations: The conversation highlights how smaller countries like Denmark can wield substantial influence in global politics by promoting pragmatic solutions and engaging with both extreme left and right factions.
- Cultural Understanding: Thorning-Schmidt notes that being from a smaller country allows politicians to have a clearer insight into the public's sentiment and challenges.
- The Role of Media and Representation
- Borgen Series Influence: The Danish political drama "Borgen" is credited with helping normalize the idea of a female leader in Denmark and contributing to the global image of Denmark.
- Public Perception of Leaders: She discusses how the portrayal of leaders in media can significantly impact their effectiveness and public acceptance.
- Misogyny in Politics
- Challenges as a Female Leader: Thorning-Schmidt candidly shares her experiences of facing misogyny throughout her political career, noting how her gender often overshadowed her political capabilities.
- Public Scrutiny: She highlights the undue focus on her appearance and personal life in the media, which male counterparts seldom experience.
- Bridging Political Divides
- Engaging Extremes: Thorning-Schmidt discusses her approach to engaging with both the extreme left and right in Danish politics, advocating for understanding the concerns of those who feel alienated by mainstream politicians.
- Compromise and Responsibility: She believes in the importance of making extreme factions responsible within the political process to foster dialogue and reduce polarization.
- Reflections on Brexit and UK Politics
- Impact of Brexit on Denmark's Political Landscape: Thorning-Schmidt expresses sadness over Brexit, noting its effect on the perception of the EU within Denmark and the UK’s historical ties with Denmark.
- Trust in Politics: She discusses the growing distrust in political systems and how that shift has paved the way for unconventional leaders, mirroring trends observed elsewhere.
- The Global Conversation on Gender and Identity
- Transgender Issues: Thorning-Schmidt shares her family's journey regarding her son Milo's transition and the societal conversation surrounding gender identity.
- Building Bridges Between Feminists and the Trans Community: She advocates for finding common ground rather than creating divides within the feminist movement.
- Reflections on Leadership and Personal Growth
- Encouragement for Young Politicians: Despite the challenges, Thorning-Schmidt encourages young people to pursue politics, emphasizing the honor of serving the public and the ability to create meaningful change.
- Different Leadership Experiences: She contrasts her experiences as Prime Minister with her roles in humanitarian organizations and corporate governance, noting the sense of teamwork that exists in business settings compared to the adversarial nature of politics.
Key Takeaways
- Pragmatism, compromise, and coalition-building are hallmarks of effective governance, especially in smaller, proportional representation systems.
- Misogyny remains a significant barrier for women in politics, affecting their public perception and opportunities.
- Engaging with extreme political factions is crucial for building consensus and understanding societal concerns.
- The impact of Brexit has reshaped perceptions of the EU, leading to increased support for European integration in Denmark.
- Leadership in various sectors brings unique experiences, but the underlying commitment to service and community remains a common thread.
Final Thoughts Helle Thorning-Schmidt's insights provide a nuanced understanding of the complexities of modern politics, emphasizing the need for compassion, collaboration, and humility in leadership roles. Her experiences highlight both the challenges and rewards of a political career, advocating for a more inclusive and understanding political landscape.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:28Thanks for listening to The Rest is Politics. Sign up to The Rest is Politics. device and save we see that may have been too much feeling only pay for what you need at liberty mutual.com liberty liberty liberty savings vary underwritten by liberty mutual insurance company and affiliates excludes massachusetts at new balance we believe if you run you're a runner however you choose to do it because when you're not worried about doing things the right way you're free to discover your way and that's what running is all about run your way at newbalance.com slash running
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1:50Hello and welcome to The Rest is Politics, leading with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alistair Campbell. And we have a former Prime Minister from Denmark. And I've had quite a few friends on this interview slot, as has Rory. But I think this is the first friend I've had with whom I've spent family holidays where we've had to endure these appalling, never-ending concerts by our children. So, Hela, I will declare right at the start, is a close friend. Yeah, we're friends. Yeah, and she's also well-known in Denmark for obvious reasons, having been a prime minister, but also a big part of British politics because she married into the Kinnock clan, married Stephen, an MP, and therefore in-law of Neil and sadly departed, Glenys Kinnock.
2:40I think I first met you, Ella, when you were quite a junior sort of aide to the Social Democrats in the European Parliament in Denmark. And then within a few years, you were the prime minister. I know. First of all, thank you for having me, both of you. It's great to be here. I've been looking forward to it. No, I think we met each other back in, I want to say, 92, 93, where I came over to have Christmas with the Kinnocks. And obviously, you guys were there with the kids. and everyone was so pissed. So you had to pick me up in the airport because you were drinking a drop. Oh, that's right, because I wasn't drinking.
3:16So this is the first time I met you. I didn't know who you were at all. So that was the first Christmas we had together. And I've been looking after you ever since. Yeah, and the other way around as well. But that was quite a journey though. It was quite a... It was rapid. It was and it wasn't. I was always interested in Europe. My first political election was to be a European parliamentarian, which I was for five years. And then I started getting more and more engaged into the party situation, obviously extremely inspired by New Labour. And the journey you guys were on spoke a lot to you and Philip Gold when we went on our endless holidays.
3:56And I remember one day Philip said to me, why don't you do it? one of our long dinners by the pool where the kids were doing their theater behind us. Why don't you do it? And that actually put a thought into my head that maybe I could go back and try to change my party so it could become electable again and win elections. And that's why I started thinking maybe I should go back and do it. Take a big step back for a second. And thank you. We're really great to have you. Give us a sense of what makes Danish politics distinctive. For a British listener or an American listener or a French listener, what's different about Denmark and Danish politics compared to what it might be in Britain, France or the US?
4:42The big difference in a lot of Nordic politics is that we know how to be pragmatic and compromise. And that comes from a lot of different things. First of all, we don't have the first-past-the-post system. we have proportional representation, which means that just in the Danish parliament, and this is a small country you're talking about, we have now nine parties. When I was prime minister, I had eight parties. No one ever gets a majority. So when I was in government, I had a three-party coalition government, but we didn't even have a majority in that coalition. So every morning you wake up as a prime minister and literally think, how will I get my majority for this piece of legislation that I have put forward.
5:26And that gives a sense that you have to make coalitions, you have to work in coalitions, you have to be pragmatic, you have to do compromises, you have to work with the outside world. So I think what is so different in Danish politics is that you're not less of a politician, you're not less principled when you do a compromise, when you actually go out of the door saying we are five parties doing this together. You have to constantly build bridges. And that's what is the big difference. And that's what, to be honest, I'm also missing in British politics. Well, let's get back to that. It's a wonderful subject.
6:02But just one more thing. I mean, size matters. Denmark, as you say, is a smaller country. What's the impact of being a politician in a smaller country compared to being a politician, let's say, in France or somewhere? I do think you, I mean, I don't know. I haven't been prime minister or president in France. Wouldn't mind, but haven't. Could be a vacancy. I do think you have a much clearer feeling for what everyone, how everyone thinks about things. I mean, I come from the suburbs of Copenhagen, but I know the country really, really well. And I always felt that whatever living room I came into in Jotland or wherever in the country, I would always be able to sit down and have a conversation with those people, understand their problems.
6:48And you just have a sense of how people live. And that means that it's much easier to build those bridges, have a conversation. One of the things I hope we'll talk about is we were much earlier than anyone else in Denmark to actually find out how do you understand the extreme right? How do you understand the extreme left? And how do you get them into the tent and start working with them? And that has meant that we have so many coalitions. When I was prime minister, I worked with all the parties, extreme left, extreme right. and that is the big difference that you know how people think about a lot of things and you are able to build those bridges.
7:27The TV series Borgen was I think a lot of our listeners and viewers are geeks of politics and a lot of them will have seen it and of course it was about a female prime minister and as you say lots of it was about the relationships and the coalitions and so forth. Was that helpful to Denmark to have that as a kind of global political hit? It definitely was and the interesting thing about that series that it came before I became I was leader and I helped them a lot with with the series and they talked to me a lot but it came out before I actually got became prime minister but it in in a way it helped me because obviously I'm the first female leader of my party I was the first female prime minister in the country so it helped people envisage how you could have a female leader because there was a fictional series that showed that so it was very interesting that the series helped me become prime minister.
8:20There's no doubt about it. And then it also gave fame to Denmark. I started giving this series as a box set. This is an old-fashioned thing. As a box set to different people, I gave it to Shinto Aabe, who loved it. I gave it to Sako Si's wife, who loved it as well. So we started using it in a way of promoting Denmark. And I met African leaders. It's very much soft power. I spoke to African leaders who had seen it. And it was just fun. It was a fun way to start a conversation because everyone asked, are you the prime minister in Borgen? Are you Birgitta? Yeah. One of the things I think that's striking about Borgen is that it seems as though the Danish prime minister doesn't have all the kind of pomp and circumstance and grandeur of the kind of Elyse Palace in France or the White House.
9:07A lot of it seems to happen kind of around a kitchen table in a kind of suburban house, living out a very kind of normal life. Is that true? It is actually true. I mean, I lived the life that was, I mean, I think I'm the prime minister that ironed more shirts than anyone in the world. We stayed in the same house that we always did. We had security, of course, but I lived a very normal life. I mean, you queue up in the supermarket, you do all those things. and in a way that's also part of what you were asking before Roy, what is different? This is a very small place. If you are suddenly seen to have heirs or live in a different life than your constituents, you are not a good prime minister any longer and obviously I was very different as a person, as a leader of my party and that was enough so I also needed to be very down to earth as a person and as Danish prime minister you really, really are.
9:59You mentioned how you sort of tame as it were the hard right and the hard left. Yeah. I wouldn't use that word, but yes. Okay, or to involve and to engage, right. Which is possibly a lesson that President Macron right now could be thinking about. And it's also something that might come here. Give us an explanation as to how you did that and how effective you were and what the challenges were. This is a big question because it's also, it's a UK question. It's a European question. You saw right after the European elections, I know your listeners know what goes on. Right after the European election, President of Commission von der Leyen, she said, she was like a sigh, a big sigh of relief.
10:39Oh, the center was held. We are safe now. And I really felt that was a wrong reaction because it was also a big sign that the European right is awake, it's growing, and it's getting real influence in many big European countries. And what I rather think we should be doing is to think about what are those people worried about who vote for the far right. They're not all bigots and racists. Some of them are normal people that are just worried about some things and we need to understand what they're worried about. And that's where we started. When I came back and became the leader of my party, I was leader of that party for 10 years, I basically had to move the party out of its comfort zone in terms of tax, in terms of the economy, but also in terms of how we spoke about that cultural meeting that I think the left has talked about in rosy terms, which is not always that rosy for people who live in it.
11:41I happen to come from the south of Copenhagen, which is the town where we had most immigrants in the 70s. We are like the town in the country that has had a lot of issues around this. So I knew from my own childhood and my own background that there were people that were questioning what's going on here without being racist and bigots. And we have to have a bridge to listen to what people are saying. And I think that's how you deal with the right wing. And then you also make them responsible. Hopefully that is what Macron is trying to do now in France, make them responsible for the general politics in a country.
12:20And that's also what we did in government. We obviously generally around the world have this very positive view of Denmark with reason and a lot of great things about Denmark. And we would expect you as a former Danish prime minister to be very patriotic and tell us how wonderful it is. However, presumably Denmark also has some structural problems, demographic, economic, welfare financing. So tell us a little bit about some of the uncomfortable challenges in Denmark, which maybe people don't see who have only a very pure, idealistic vision of Denmark? I think we have exactly the same problems that everyone else has.
12:56And that's a demographic that doesn't add up. We have a good economy and have always been very good at making reforms. Like when I was leader of my party, one of the things we did was to make a big pension reform, which means that the pension age actually goes up every year according to our average... Life expectancy. Life expectancy. So that's how we reform the country. Explain that. It's a number of years below the average life expectancy. Yeah, we always want people to retire 15 years before the average... So the average life expectancy is 80, they retire at 65 or something like this. Yeah, so it goes up all the time.
13:33So that is the system we created. So we're very good at creating... It's super smart. It's super smart. It's one of the best things we did for the Danish economy. But again, you've fallen into the trap of talking about all the wonderful, positive, patriotic things about Denmark. It's also what it's being negative. I love that because you need to focus in on what are the problems. A big welfare state like we have where you basically tax people. We are the highest one of the highest taxed countries in the world, always competing with France to be the highest taxed country in the world. And if you have that high taxation, you also need to deliver world class services to the elderly, to children, to everyone.
14:14And of course, that is the big problem. that we have pockets where we're not delivering that world-class service. And as long as we have this high taxation, we will always struggle to actually deliver. And we have to have a constant machine to reform and become better and better delivering world-class services. Give us examples of things which a Danish listener listening to would recognize as being examples where people haven't performed in the last five, ten years. I think in our health service, we are struggling. We have areas of our countries where it's difficult to recruit doctors. We have hospitals that are overburdened.
14:48We have many issues like that. We also have elderly people that don't feel they get the care that they need. And disability is also an issue where we keep talking about how will we actually make sure that people with disabilities get fairly treated in the system. So our problems are exactly the same. But I do think we should put that burden on ourselves. When you have that high taxation, you should deliver world class services. And Danes expect world-class treatment when they have cancer, when they have a child with disabilities or mental illness, they expect world-class services. And I think people would agree with me in Denmark that they're not always getting that.
15:26So you met Steve, your husband, now a Labour MP at the College of Europe. and were you aware when you met and fell in love with Steve that you were kind of marrying into this big Labour thing called the Kinnocks? No, I wasn't. So what was that like and also how did that affect your politics, being married into such a political family? Well, it's funny. Steve and I met when we were doing European studies and we had formed this political group, which was like a social democratic group in the college and that's how we met basically. So we met discussing politics, which was amazing. And we always talk politics.
16:07And and but it really for me, it confirmed where I belong politically. I came into this huge family, not only the Kinnocks, but you guys as well. And the whole family of politics. and it was just amazing to be part of a new conversation that I didn't know much about, but I hadn't realized that it was like a political family. And you know what? You just meet a guy. We were very young and then you just start understanding what kind of family is this and what kind of weird friends have they got and stuff like that. But what did you learn from, because there's Neil as leader of a party, trying to change, trying to mobilize the Labour Party.
16:44You then later tried to do the same. The interesting thing, I got into the family in 93, basically. So after the 92 election. So what I had to deal with, or had to understand in the beginning was how hard that had been. And I really understood how hard politics can be and how much, how long it takes to get to the other side, which actually helped me later on when I had to stop being prime minister. I also met you, Alistair, and saw the whole journey you had with working with Tony and everything and how I mean how hard it was for you as well so when I entered politics and stood for leader there was absolutely nothing you knew what could surprise me in terms of the hardship and how many sleepless nights you have and how hard it is so I was never afraid of that because I knew that you could do it but I also knew that you could find yourself afterwards and have a good family and have love and fun and all the other things that was part of the Kinnock life.
17:44So if I'm right, one of the things you did, similar to New Labour, is to challenge some of the traditional left in the party and move the party more towards the centre. And in fact, one of the things you did was reduce taxes and various things. Tell us a bit about what's involved. What did you learn as an example for somebody who's a social democrat but has to challenge the left? Why is it sometimes difficult to fight the left of your own party? What is the way to do it successfully? Did you lose friends along the way? Did people become angry with you? Did they, like Tony Blair, accuse you of having betrayed them?
18:20How did that feel emotionally? Yeah, that's a very good description of absolutely everything. I knew when I became leader of my party, we had not been in government for 10 years. And for the Social Democratic Party in Denmark, that is a long time. We had gone through a few leaders and we just hadn't found a message that was appealing to people where people start trusting us again. So my whole job as leader of my party was to make people start trusting us again and our message. And that meant we had to change our stance on tax, the economy and immigration and integration. Those were the big issues.
18:58They were like the top of mind issues for everyone. And if we didn't change our messaging around that, but not only our messaging, also how we felt politically, our thinking around politics, then I knew we could never win. And to clarify, so you were going from high tax to slightly lower tax, from more open borders to slightly more control over immigration. And also being, I always wanted to talk about the issues that come when, I mean, we were a country before the 70s that didn't have any immigration. And then in the 70s, a lot of people came. And of course, that causes some problems and things you need to talk about.
19:35And you need to find a way of talking about those issues in a polite and good, humane way. And that's what I wanted to do. When I am in Denmark now, I talk to everyone. I always have. I don't think anyone has ever accused me of being racist. But I needed to find a way of talking about real issues that people had. And that was part of the journey. And obviously the left were accusing me of moving too far to the right and all those things. But I felt it was so important that our party was in the middle of politics and that people could understand that that's where we were. And what was the most hurtful and difficult thing about the attacks from the left at the time?
20:13What made it difficult to do? Well, the most hurtful things that I ever had attacks on me was, of course, that the biggest obstacle for me, even in a country like Denmark, was to be a woman in this post. So everything else is insignificant compared to all the abuse I got from being just a woman and a different kind of person to head up my party and standing up saying, I would like to be prime minister here. So there's nothing that compares to that abuse that I got in that space. Was that just old fashioned misogyny? It was old-fashioned misogyny and also a time where you could just write everything about.
20:51I mean, I was criticized for my bags, my shoes, my... Gucci Heller. I was called Gucci Heller, which was a really brilliant way of bringing me down in a way and saying I didn't have the competences. I was all about fashion. It was also about saying that I was too smart for my own party. So there were so many things, but it was old-fashioned misogyny in that. And I can't describe it in any other way. This is going to be an analogy which is going to sound completely bizarre to you, and I apologize. Go for it. I do notice a little bit of an echo, which is during the recent election campaign, the attacks on Rishi Sunak were often not really about content.
21:29I mean, I remember, for example, in the BBC debate between him and Keir Starmer, people weren't so much saying that he wasn't debating well or that he didn't have a point. They were more going at him for being privileged, wearing fancy clothes, having been to a private school. In other words, they were sort of attacks on his kind of look and his identity rather than the content. And I wonder what kind of advice you would have for somebody like Rishi Sunak in politics. Well, it's very hard because it actually is his background. What I always felt was unfair is that I come from a divorce background.
22:01We didn't have much money where I grew up. I grew up in a... You didn't have Sky Television. No, not at all. We didn't even have a car washing machine in my household. So I come from a very, not poor background, but just a background where we didn't have a lot of money because my mom was providing for us. So I don't compare to Rishi Shunak. So I don't have a lot of advice from him. But I do think that one of the things that I think people are missing from him is that he understands where people come from and he understands what poverty is and what it means to be at the end of the month and not have enough money and have to prioritize your food budget, for example.
22:41I think that's the issue here. It's not so much his fancy clothes, because I do think if he showed that he understood these kind of things, people would feel differently. Yeah, when you said the worst thing, I thought you were going to say the fact that Steve kept being attacked. Oh, God, yeah. I mean, I remember a period when he was constantly being attacked in the Danish media over this tax situation. And you were getting absolute grief. And it felt to me like the Danes just didn't like you having a non-Danish husband. They didn't. They didn't understand it. I think it would have been much better if I just had a normal Peter Henrik as my husband who was a teacher or something.
23:22I think that would have been easier. And people were also making these big stories about this European couple. And, you know, even in Denmark, to be too European can be a difficult thing. I was just very different. And people saw me as different. And I admit I was different. I didn't grow up in a home where I knew a lot of people from my party. I became member of the party very late. I was very different. And of course, that was used against me. Okay, Hela, Rory, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights.
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25:15Can we talk a little bit about Britain? Yes, let's talk about Britain. And politics. And what's Denmark's sense of where Britain is right now? And I think on Brexit, I never quite felt that you felt the same sense of visceral loss that I felt when Brexit happened. Me personally, I felt a huge loss. I remember that day in the European Parliament where the British flag went down and I was crying. And I know colleagues who were crying because the history of Britain and the UK is very connected to the Danish history, came in at the same time. And when UK left the European Union, I was devastated by that.
26:00So I felt a big loss. The only good thing that came out of it is basically that the European member states actually really diminished the groups in the European member states that wanted to leave the European Union. And you could see it clearly in the Danish numbers. Denmark has always been conceived as a skeptical country. Now we're one of the most EU positive countries. I think we're well into the 60s of people who want to have more Europe and really be in the European Union. So what it did in Denmark was to basically, we looked at ourselves and saying, we're not doing any of that. And what's your sense today of what Brexit has done to the European politics, but also what's it done to Britain?
26:47I mean, we miss the UK. I mean, I worked very, very closely with British prime ministers. We had a lot of things in common. I still to this day don't understand why David Cameron didn't try harder to change the European Union before he put things to a referendum. I don't understand how that could happen because there was actually open doors in terms of changing things in the European Union that I think would have gone down really well in the UK. so I will never understand that I didn't think he worked hard enough to change the European Union before he put a referendum in this country but the interesting thing is in the European Union when they come together they stop talking about the UK they have stopped talking about the UK and we also see it in this election what we are interested in the European Union is the French election we are interested in German politics we are interested in Hungarian politics and Spanish politics this is where our interest is now And it is quite significant how little we are hearing about the British election in the Danish media and European media right now.
27:56So that kind of brings us to what the future is for someone like Britain. What similarities do you see between Britain and Denmark and what differences do you see? Many differences, particularly in the political system. I'm always hoping for Britain that you find your grandeur again. You find your amazing culture again. I was here at the Olympics. And every time I think about what Britain should be, I think about the Olympics. It was so much fun. I was here for almost two weeks, walking around, talking to so many people. And there was that proudness of being British that I found so inspiring. This is still a cultural hub.
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28:39All our music, films, theatre. We love the UK. and I want this country to be proud of who you are again and use that soft power in the world. And I'm hoping that in the future we will have UK becoming closer to the European Union again. We're working very well together in NATO. We need UK to push us in terms of Ukraine. So there's so many things the UK can do for us. UK is still a big supporter in terms of giving help to poorer countries. So we have so much in this country that can help the European Union as well. And I'm hoping that we'll get that. I mean, we often, particularly in Scotland, but actually I think the UK, look very enviously at Denmark and want to be Denmark.
29:28But sometimes I have Danish friends who say to me, listen, you need to understand these are very different countries. They're very different sizes. They have very different histories. it's not very appropriate to try to model someone like Britain on Denmark because these are very different types of places. Can you help? Do you agree with that? And do you think size matters? Size does matter. And I would never presume that I knew how you run a big country. I know much more about a small homogenous country where we know all corners of the country. But I do think Britain is a great country. I love this country.
30:02But there is an old-fashioned vibe where there is a nostalgia, almost like imperial nostalgia, that seems to be very hard to depart from. This is what I'm all about. This is my conservatism. This is a schtick. I don't mind conservatism. I'm a bit conservative myself. Socially. Yeah, I don't mind that you treasure what was there before you and that you think that you are standing on the shoulders of people who were there before you. But you have to combine that with being modern as well. And I've lived in the UK and there are certain elements of this country which is just not very modern. To pay your tax, to go to the doctor, to buy a new house.
30:46It's just not a very modern country. And sometimes I feel that the past is holding this great country back. Give us examples on buying a house or doctor or paying your tax. How does that work in Denmark? You need a digital system for everything. You need a digital system for everything. So, I mean, if I buy a house in Denmark, it's all digital. So it literally takes... And with the doctor? You get an appointment online. Everything is online. I mean, we all have a number. We have a personal number that we use for everything connected to the state. We have files in our health. So you're not so much complaining about the monarchy, you're complaining about the fact that our bureaucracy is still stuck in the 1970s.
31:26I love the monarchy. I don't mind the monarchy at all. We have a monarchy that we like. No, I think this is just small examples and I would never criticise a country that I lived in. And I love this country, but I do think the proudness of the history cannot stand in the way of moving into the future. And that's what I feel that is perhaps missing. So how do you think people felt around Europe when Johnson was in charge and constantly doing this world beating, we're the best at this and we're the best at that? How did you, half living here, kind of react to that? Well, I think you can say you are world beating.
32:03I think that's the term he used all the time, if you are. I mean, if you are the best in the world, say it and be that. Denmark has just yesterday done an amazing climate deal where we're the first country in the world where we're actually putting a CO2 tax on agriculture. This is actually really leading the world in this space. And if you are, talk about it and be that leader. What I don't think is great is if you say you are a leader and you're actually not. If you say you have the best health service in the world and you actually don't. And if you go on like that, I don't think that it goes down very well.
32:41And I think people will see right through that and say, are you actually world beating, as he kept saying. Boris Johnson seems to me to be one example of a general change in politics, which we can see in many countries. Maybe it's a sort of form of populism. And it's a form of different types of leaders emerging, which I guess, I mean, our instinct probably would be that in the 60s or 70s, people would not choose someone like Boris Johnson to be Prime Minister. They certainly in the States wouldn't consider Donald Trump as a potential president, right? These people seem like buffoons, leader across buffoons, and they make it to the top.
33:15So what What do you think has been shifting in politics, which suddenly creates opportunities and spaces for these kinds of people? Two things. First of all, after the war, Second World War, everyone just wanted higher living standard. Everyone just wanted better jobs, better lives for their families. There was something really to fight for in those years, which we got through the 50s and 60s, 70s. Everything just got better all the time. Then after that and the time we live in now, people have a serious lack of trust in absolutely everything. When you measure trust, people don't trust capitalism.
33:52They don't trust democracy. They don't trust politicians. They don't trust journalists. They don't trust anything. And I think that lack of trust has meant that people are now prepared to vote for people who are completely outside the norm of how you are supposed to be in politics. They don't trust the old fashioned politicians. So they start looking elsewhere. And there's a direct line between someone like President Trump to Boris Johnson to other leaders in Europe where people don't trust traditional politicians anymore. So they look elsewhere and also they see their problems being different.
34:30How much of that is driven by, we should maybe bring you on to some of the things you do now. So you're on the oversight board at Meta. Yes. As Facebook as was. I mean, how much of this do you think is driven by social media? I think we have a strong tendency to blame everything on social media these days. No, not everything, but I think it has had a pretty bad effect on politics. Yes and no. I think social media, like everything else, has got very positive sides to it. I personally love my Instagram. I love social media. You wouldn't be popular if you didn't have your social media, this podcast.
35:03So social media has been so good for a lot of things and particularly giving voice and agency to groups of people around the world who does not have voice and agency. And that is what I'm seeing every day when we're looking into cases. We're always asking, how do we get more voice to indigenous people, to people who don't have a voice, to girls and women in Iran, stuff like that. This is very important about social media and we must never forget that. Then there is also giving the opportunity for people to meet and to maybe make worse some of the tendencies we have in our time. That could be racist groups or very right wing groups that have an opportunity to find each other.
35:44But I always think about this when people say social media has meant that we get more racist meeting online. We had a lot of racist meeting in the Second World War. People were perfectly capable of meeting each other in fascist movement across borders. So it's not only social media that makes this possible. So I think we need to be very clear about how we regulate big tech companies. We have to have regulation. We have to have oversight board like what I'm doing for Meta. We also have to have people to understand the power that social media can have on them if they don't take charge themselves and users also have a personal responsibility here.
36:25And one of the things that seems to happen with social media is that it can become a kind of algorithm for polarization. It sort of rewards people making extreme and provocative comments. And there seems to be a very interesting sense in which politics has gone from the kind of center ground days of Blair and Clinton to kind of U-shape with the votes at my elbows and my hands. and that's I think a very I say striking example of the way in which social media may be at fault and one of the questions I suppose we have is is there something you can do to actually address the algorithms themselves so that you're not rewarding people for making extreme and provocative comments?
37:06I to be honest I think it's a bit simplified way of seeing things because you can see whatever you like on social media and you can also ask not to see things on social media. You can go onto your feed. You can say, I don't want to see political things. I don't want to see advertising for this company. I don't want to see these words. There's so much you can do on your own feed. And I don't think people are pushed. It's like we are talking about people like they don't have a free will. If I want to see something that's happening, which is illegal on social media, if I want to trade things that are illegal, if I want to gravitate towards the most extreme right on the most extreme left, I will find a way on social media.
37:47So it's not like we are just pawns. Let me push back one more time. Maybe this is unfair because now you work for the Facebook mother company. No, I don't work for the Facebook. I am independent of Meta. I am Meta's watchdog. So I criticize Meta every day of my life. But I do think we have a tendency to just adopt these simplified ways of seeing social media. Let me push back then a little bit. Go on, Ro. So my sense, for example, I use what used to be Twitter X a lot. And I feel and I felt as a politician that in a sense that platform trained us. It taught us what was likely to get the most retweets, what was likely to get the most likes.
38:26And over time, we began to develop ways of writing sentences, ways of using images in order to get that. And that tended to drive us to more and more provocative and extreme positions. You realize that you didn't get rewarded by saying, or trivia, had a fascinating conversation about the digitization of the Danish health service, right, gets two likes. If we say, you know, Donald Trump is a war criminal who should be taken to the International Criminal Court in the Hague, I can guarantee 20 ,000 likes, right? Yes. Right, right. So surely we have to be honest about that. But that has always been the case.
39:00That has always been the case in tabloid media, that they would say things in the strongest possible way to get… But it was not an option for me, right? But you can also argue that you have got a voice to express your opinion and that that is a good thing. I'm not so much worried about your voice, Roy, but I do think that in many countries where they have oppressive regimes, you have an opposition that needs a voice. And those oppressive regimes, there's nothing they want more to say we shouldn't have social media, we shouldn't have free speech. So I think free speech is an amazing thing and we should always defend it.
39:39And then we shouldn't just say that people are so stupid that they can't decide who they want to be following. You know, when President Trump was limited on social media, on Twitter back then was Twitter and then also on meta platforms. He just did his own social media. So I'm not sure that we can say that it's just social media that has divided us. It's a lot of other things and it's a simplification of politics and the lack of trust we have in politics and politicians maybe not living up to the expectations if we just turn to social media and say, it is your fault. And it's not because I say, there's no one to blame on social media, but we must stop saying it's all social media's fault.
40:22We wouldn't have a better world tomorrow if we just abolished social media. We'd have a more boring world. So as you say, you love your Instagram and you're pretty prolific, but the post for which you are best known was a selfie with President Obama and David Cameron at Nelson Mandela's memorial service. What was that like? Because that was like, it seemed, with Michelle looking pretty angry in the background. She wasn't angry. Well, she looked it. She wasn't, yeah. You know, but you can't trust pictures like that. You should know that. It was an amazing event. It was Mandela's memorial service.
40:53It was like in a big stadium. People had like instruments and drums. It was a crazy atmosphere. And you will know this. It was so unusual. There was kind of free seating for Hesse and States of Government. Just go and sit somewhere. so I went in and there was like two post-its on two seats saying reserved but then the next one there wasn't a post-it so I just sat there and these two post-its was actually basically reserved for Michelle and Barack so they came in a little bit after after Barack Obama had done his speech so they came in obviously we had a chat I just learned to take a selfie from Johanna my oldest daughter so she has just taught me to take a selfie so I said to Barack we knew each other we were working together say we need to do this this is like a new thing we need to take a selfie obviously what happens is that Cameron photo bombed muscled himself in to the photo so there's this ridiculous photo which I'm the only one who got I got that photo no one else has got that photo and we just had a laugh.
41:56It was a moment of three people. We're the same age. We have nice working relationship, just taking a selfie. It was the year that self became part of the dictionary and it became the most famous selfie ever. And I went from Johannesburg to Copenhagen and when I landed, I was globally famous. And that was, it was so weird. And since then, and last, next time I met Barack Obama, he said, you got me into trouble. But it was a fun moment. But people were very worried about it the day after. What is the, looking back, what is the, along with all the wonderful benefits of politics, what do you see as being the cost of politics?
42:38If you were talking to one of your children and they said, I want to be a politician, and you were being honest with them, what would you warn them about that maybe the public doesn't understand about what's involved? Politics has honestly become a security risk and we have to admit that. And also I have friends who are no longer here because of who they were and because they were in politics. So you can't say that it's risk free to go into politics. But I would advise young people to think… Your children? Yeah, I would. Because often I find people are very happy to advise other people's children, but not their own children.
43:13I would advise our children to go into politics and your children, everyone's children, because it is so rewarding. And you know that, Roy. It is so rewarding to serve your people. I mean, the biggest title and the title I will always be most proud of is to have to be prime minister, because I was able to serve the Danish people as prime minister. It's a big honor and you can change things in politics. I still look back at things that I did in the 10 years I was leader of my party and when I was prime minister, when I changed my country for the people that I wanted to serve. And this is such a great honor.
43:50So I would recommend people go into politics, local politics, regional politics and European politics, which is an amazing thing to do as well. I will always be grateful for the five years I had in European Parliament because I felt I could be part of a change, not maybe a large change, but a small change where you change things for real people. And that's it's an honor. It's an honor to serve. And you should never forget that. So I would actually recommend going into politics. very on message for the the podcast um now listen i so i've known steve longer than you have because i've known him since he was a kid and i've known your two children all their lives because you know you got married to steve and then on they came along and you said earlier my daughters because the daughter one of the daughters is now a son ilo yeah and the trans debate in this country has I think become pretty toxifying.
44:45I just wonder whether it's the same in Denmark and also how you've handled that. I know that you and Milo go out and talk about it and you're very proud of it. But just talk me through that from whether that's a different debate in Denmark. It is a little bit of a different debate because everything is less polarized and becomes less polarized. I wrote a book a couple of years ago about leadership and how my journey into leadership and what I met as a woman in politics. But I also talked about our kids and Milo's journey, which is a journey from being a girl to being a trans person now with gender fluid, basically.
45:23And we started talking about this and I was surprised of how helpful it felt to a lot of families because they start writing to us, so great, you talk about it, you make it so much easier. And all I wanted was just to normalize how we talk about this and also say to parents, you don't need to understand everything you don't need to understand everything that your kids do and it doesn't matter what your kids do you just need to be there and support that child who you love it's the same person whatever journey they're on it's the same person and it is the same person and that's the message I want to just to give to it's a simple message and it's not very hard and one thing that has saddened me a lot is to see that there's suddenly a fight between feminists I consider myself a feminist.
46:10I've been a feminist since I was 12 years old and the trans community. And I think we should be on the same side. There's so much to argue. There's so much to say about trans community and feminists being on the same side. And I think if Milo and I can help on that discussion as well, we want to do that. Oh, you're doing that for sure. Why do you think that somebody like J.K. Rowling, for example, is so angry about this issue that she wants to do a whole front page in The Times saying she can't vote for Labour? I don't know. And I really like J.K. Rowling and I've read all her books. I'm very saddened by it.
46:50But I also want to try to take the temperature out of this conversation. I actually feel that my role in politics, also Danish politics, is to try to build bridges between generations, between different points of view, not to call other people names. My role is, as a mature former politician, is to try to build bridges. And I would love for her to also be part of that, building bridges between people. There are so many people trying to pull us apart, trying to say this is black and white. We can't build that bridge. But I do think, I believe in compromise. I believe in meeting, being pragmatic, all those things.
47:31And that's why I don't understand why we have to have a fight between feminists and trans people. We need to build bridges there as well. I love hearing this. And of course, one of the things I admired a lot about your husband, Stephen, is during the European debate, he was really trying to find a compromise around Brexit and bringing people together and living out those values as well. As did you, Roy. I was very proud to watch what happened. I was very proud to watch what happened earlier, by the way, when I said that I didn't feel you felt that sort of visceral sense of loss because during that debate, I think you think I was going too far.
47:59Well, I felt you were going too far. I was on Stephen's side on this. Yeah, no, I... Do you want to know? Yeah, I do. I felt it was very difficult to ask for a second referendum when people had just voted. And I sometimes feel that people who asked for the second referendum created an obstacle to finding the middle ground and the solution. And that bothers me because I think there was a middle ground. I think Rory was representative of that. So, yeah, I do think that I understand why you did it, ask for a second referendum. But I also felt I understood why people would be very angry to get a second referendum when they had just voted on something.
48:40It's like saying, oh, we didn't like the result of that. So we just do it again. The Danes did it once, didn't they? We changed something. We actually, when we did the Maastricht Treaty, we voted no. And then we changed certain things. We got four exemptions from the treaty and voted again. So that is exactly what could have happened here. You could have got a different treaty. What I was saying is that you could have agreed the deal and then had a vote on that because the deal that he ended up doing bore very little relation to the Brexit that was promised. That was my point. So true. And I mean, you got the worst of all worlds with the Brexit you ended up having.
49:18It hasn't solved any problems as far as I can see. People often ask me, are there any good things about Brexit? Honestly, I can't see it. Other what I'd said before, that in Denmark, we do not want to leave the European Union anymore because we see how that is going. So no, I always felt there was a missed opportunity to find the middle ground. And again, it's not in the culture to find that middle ground. And I felt that my husband, Steve and Roy, worked very, very earnestly to find that middle ground there. Finally, you then spent a very interesting period running Save the Children. And I wonder whether you could think a little bit about what the difference is between being a prime minister and being the head of a big international aid agency.
49:59and maybe be a little bit frank about the advantages and disadvantages of both. What are the different frustrations in the two roles? Yeah, I've made such a weird journey because I started in politics, then I went into the NGO sector as CEO, Save the Children International, and now I'm basically in business. I do the oversight for Meta themselves. So I'm Meta's watchdog, but I also work in a number of boards in the US and Denmark and the UK. So I'm in business now. And I think that journey has been very, very interesting, has taught me so much. And one thing I've really learned is that when you are in a business, as I am on various boards, for the first time, I'm feeling that the people in the room are on the same team.
50:41When you're in politics, you're never on the same team with anyone, not even the people from your own party. Then you go into coalition, definitely not on the same team. In the NGO sector, there's also a lot of different teams. A lot of bitching goes on. A lot of different teams which they should have a discussion about. And then in the sector that I'm in now, when we're in the boardroom, we're all on the same team. And that's been an amazing feeling. It's much less stressful as well. So that's my lesson. I love being in Save the Children. And you know that yourself, Roy. It's amazing to work with 25 ,000 people across the world and more than 100 countries just trying to make life a little bit better for children.
51:20This is my passion. I'm passionate about children's rights. that children have agency, have a voice. That's also why I think we need to respect children's voice in social media and not say they just can't be on social media. Children have a voice as well. So that was amazing to work in that organization. But I'm also glad that I transitioned out into a business world where I really feel that it's amazing to be on the same team. Now, finally, and thanks for being here and thanks for all your time. I think both Rory and I should say thank you. You should. Because, you know, the truth, well, obviously a lot of things, But also, it is doubtful whether this podcast would ever have happened had it not been for the fact that the first and only conversation I ever had with Rory Stewart before we started on this venture was in your kitchen.
52:08Isn't it amazing? Yeah. I feel like I was creating this beautiful moment and meeting between the two of you. Your house, your party. Yeah, it was a good party. Alistair obviously demanded to hear ABBA all the time, which is what he does at a party. but I'm so glad you had a conversation in all that noise and the inferno of that party and started this makes me very proud and I want to say this particularly to Rory, I mean Alistair please don't listen you're doing a fine job in this podcast and I listen to it all the time, I don't want to say it to Alistair because you know how he gets Rory, if he gets too much praise he doesn't like it, can't live with it, doesn't like it no but we'll just tell the listeners that's one way of putting it Steve and Heller had a party at home.
52:54Steve had worked with Rory in Brussels. No, no, it was more of a French parliament. So Steve and Rory had worked together in parliament. Rory, I think, was the only Tory who was there. And we had a chat. And it was during the Brexit debate. Yeah, it was big. We had a sort of... You were the minister then. Disagreeable, disagreeable disagreement. But I thought, at least he's got something about him. And so then when we did have the idea of doing the podcast, and my social media followers, thank you social media as well, started and I said, if I did a podcast with the Tory, who should it be? And loads of them said, Roy.
53:27Yeah, of course. And I'd met him and I knew him. That's amazing. Roy was the obvious choice. But I do think what you're showing in this podcast is that it is actually possible to build those bridges, have that conversation, disagree and invite people in who disagree with you. And I really like that. And that's what I want more of, that we disagree in an agreeable way and that we talk to each other and try to build those bridges. My experience is that the world could become so much nicer if you try to build those bridges. Well, on that bridge building note, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me.
53:59Tak, tak, tak. Takmoa. Takmoa, the only Danish I know. Thank you, Bobby. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Ah, Royce, that was what we call a whirlwind breath of fresh air through the studio, I thought. Well, I think she's great. I mean, obviously, she appeals to me in every way. I love this stuff about compromise. I love the fact she agrees with me and disagrees with you on the referendum. But I also thought she's a reminder of the importance of optimism and cheerfulness in life. I mean, not just in politics. I mean, I don't think she's bluffing. I think she genuinely tends to look on the bright side and tend to think that everything's great.
54:47No, she's one of my favorite people. And, you know, the holidays that I talked about, including when she was like, you know, under a lot of pressure, as sometimes was I. But she's always got that sort of smiling disposition. And the pressure was horrible, wasn't it? Because if I remember correctly, there was this accusation that Stephen Kinnock was really resident in Denmark and should have been paying Danish taxes and wasn't. And then she's becoming prime minister. And we can see what that's like in a British context, right? You're prime minister and your husband's cheating on the tax affairs.
55:22You've got kind of non-dom husband. Yeah, which is what they were saying. No, I got very involved in that because they wanted a bit of help in terms of dealing with the media and so forth. But it was horrible and it was really big. I mean, the Danish media can be probably not as tough as ours in some ways, but really quite brutal. So, yeah, she had a lot of pressure. And that's the first time I've heard her say in those terms that the worst part of the job was just that straightforward, old-fashioned misogyny. Yeah, being a woman. Yeah. And I think female politicians, actually almost everybody we've interviewed has said that, haven't we?
55:57It's a very, very common theme that probably the strongest, most striking thing is how badly you're treated as a woman in politics. But the, and my God, she was on message from my book message, wasn't she? Young people go again. Julia Gillard in the book says exactly the same as she said. Even though she had the misogyny, she would still say to young people, do it. Get into it. What did you notice watching her about what the difference was between being British Prime Minister and a Danish Prime Minister when you were observing the difference between Tony Blair, who was a very close friend, her, who was a very close friend?
56:28What did you sense was the difference? I think it was probably the question of scale. So she said rightly that she had protection and so forth, but it was quite small. It was a couple of coppers and a sort of bulletproof car. um i think it was also the fact that maybe when when you travel internationally that there are certain countries where the head of government who is traveling is just universally noticed america china uh so at the moment i guess you know if macron was traveling around the place you just notice that that's going on with some of the smaller countries less so but i think the The other thing that was really interesting about Heller's career, there was a period when she was seriously in contention for the top European job.
57:14To be commissioned president. Yeah. I think Angela Merkel at the point was quite keen. I can't remember where that one ended. So she was seen. You know, a bit like my friend Eddie Rama. Yeah. Tiny country at the moment. But actually, when he walks in the room, the other leaders kind of, you know, oh, here's Eddie. And Heller had a bit of that. And the Greek prime minister who we just interviewed. Yeah, absolutely. He was the one who probably would have got von der Leyen's job if she had been knocked off her perch. She'd been knocked off her perch, yeah. I wonder also, I'd like to maybe get her some time over a drink and try to really get into this question about the difference between being the chief executive of Save the Children, huge international NGO, being on the board of Meta, one of the largest companies in the world, and being Prime Minister of Denmark.
57:59And of course, being Heller, because she's got a very positive view, she basically says they're all great. They're all fantastic, had a great time. I love them all. But I felt going from politics into the NGO world, one difference is that you have more direct control as a chief executive of an NGO than you do as a minister. As a minister, there are so many laws, civil servants, processes, parties, which actually often means that you pull a lever and something doesn't happen. Whereas the CEO of an NGO, it is more direct. But it's also true that the difference between dealing with other people's countries, so she would have been dealing with the Democrat Republic Congo or Yemen or South Sudan I mean horrors and tragedies in other people's countries emotionally feels very different to navigating a small change in tax in Denmark I don't know how she felt about that it would be interesting to know yeah but also I think the other thing is you know she's young enough she'll definitely do something else big in her life I'm pretty sure about that and I love the way she talked about Milo and the trans issue I thought that was really refreshing to her that was so good wasn't it so good And I'd be interested.
59:04I mean, obviously, we have a lot of feminist listeners who feel that we're not addressing it. I'd be interested to see how they respond to it, because I thought what was lovely is her saying, listen, I don't want to stir this up. You know, I've got a lot of respect for both sides. This is my child. This is what I think about it. I've got admiration for JK Rowling. And honestly, I'm not in the business of dividing. And another thing as well, I think a lot of parents were really home to me when she said, you don't have to know everything that goes on in your children's lives. You don't have to know everything about them.
59:33You have to understand them. You just have to understand them and love them and be there for them. Almost you don't have to understand them, you have to love them. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's so important because we're so into the idea of knowledge. We're so into the idea that you can know someone else. And I suspect the greatest truth in the world is giving up on that and accepting that people are quite alien and uncertain. You're not in control, but you can love them nonetheless. Has that replaced the earlier great truth that if you lose something, it's probably where you last thought you had it?
1:00:03Actually, I have another truth that I want to share with you. And this is very important. And I want you, I mean, if you outlive me, to pass this on to future generations. Never, ever eat pistachio ice cream. It's completely revolting. I don't agree with that at all. I really don't agree with that. It's such an important piece of wisdom. But it's also wrong. Trois beaux, caramel, fraise, pistache. You're not going to do better than that. Thank you. Thank you.
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