85. Lisa Nandy: Making Britain a cultural superpower

31:40If you wanted to have a drink with his wife in the pub they had to stage a sit-in to achieve it and so he set up something called the Campaign Against Racial Discrimination card, got very involved in the race relations issue, went on to work for Roy Jenkins to write the Race Relations Act. This was back in the 70s. Yeah. And so that's how he met my mum, because he was lobbying a lot of liberal MPs to try and get them to support this effort. My granddad was in the House of Lords by then, was very supportive. Very interesting that Roy Jenkins would go for a Marxist to help him write the act. Well, I never knew Roy Jenkins, but my understanding is that he was intellectually very curious and interesting.

32:21And actually framing race legislation is, you know, equality legislation is incredibly hard. You know, you can't police people's thoughts. And you shouldn't police people's thoughts. So you've got to find a way to frame it. It takes quite a lot of intellectual work and thoughts. And I think my dad was pretty good at that. So is he a Labour voter? My dad? Yeah. No. Never vote Labour. So my dad is a tactical voter. So he votes to get the Tories out. Right. So he's voted Labour a lot of times, but he will vote for whichever party he thinks can defeat the Tories. Would he have been enthusiastic about Jeremy Corbyn?

33:02No, goodness no. He's a Marxist. I don't mean to be so emphatic, but no. I mean, he's a Marxist, not a communist. And he, you know... I love these distinctions in the Labour movement. Well, okay. All right, Rory, let me explain it. Yeah, Rory often struggles with Marxism, communism, Trotskyism. It's a shame for you. Because it's the world... You have to get my dad on so he can explain it to you. One of the problems we have in this podcast is Alistair refuses to explain any of this because he's so allergic to it, so scarred by the experience of Labour in the 80s, that whenever I'm like, will you explain Milton Tendency?

33:33Will you talk about Trotskyites? He's like, nope, I don't want to talk about it. I'm not sure Alistair's the person you want talking about that anyway, to be fair, but I'll get my dad to come on and he can talk to you both about it. But I mean, basically, you know, there's a, you know, from each according to her ability to each according to her need is the sort of central tenet of Marxism. And that's, that's my dad's belief system. He, he, but he fought the far right all his life and he fought the far left as well. and actually during the the difficult years under labour he was very helpful at helping me navigate that because he had to you know they they meet in the middle really they meet they come full circle and they why do they meet well you know there's a very there's a i think in a lot of ways so the way that they do politics which is to to build up people's sense of grievance anger but then give it nowhere to go and it becomes very toxic and very dangerous and it offers no route to real change for people it closes off the route to real change for people do you have arguments with him about that that you your politics is very different to that and you think that that politics is fundamentally impractical to help people no he thinks that so we think you're impractical no no he thinks that the far left and the far right are utterly impractical as do i yeah and dangerous and toxic you know when he was being chased down dark alleys with by people with baseball bats at sort of far right rallies they were also the far left were putting up pictures of him on the tube that said with pictures of his face saying wanted deepak nandy choc ice which those of you who know about race relations will know is a really appalling thing that people say when they say you're brown on the outside white on the inside so the fact as a way of trying to attack you there was a point where he was such a well-known figure that the left thought it was worth putting up his photograph on the tube yeah so he was i mean he was a very big figure in the race relations world people still come up to me and say to me that they they knew him they met him they worked for him they volunteered in that in that struggle he he knew people like martin luther king they went over to the states to learn some of the techniques things like the blind job application um that sort of thing they brought those techniques back to the uk in order to sort of win that struggle and when i was a kid I remember he used to do a thing every week he would debate Enoch Powell on national TV.

35:51They had a weekly slot. It's like Alistair and me. Yeah, well, it was sort of, I mean, it was, I mean, obviously, you know, this is much more historic and momentous to hear you two trying to explain football to each other. Much more important. Enoch and Deepak. It was quite an extraordinary childhood in the sense that I went to a very ordinary state school. With Lucy Powell. With Lucy Powell. There were more people in the cabinet now from Parswood High School in Manchester than from Eton. which we've been very chuffed about. Infinitely more because you don't have anyone from Easton. That's true.

36:21And our first prime minister to go to Leeds, I think, Leeds University. Although it's not as good as Newcastle, just got that in there. But it was quite an extraordinary childhood in the sense that, you know, my friends, like my best friend Jess, she's still, I mean, she does vote now because I gave her such a hard time. But, you know, she comes from a very ordinary working class background and all of my friends at school were we were just normal mank kids growing up and something like being a member of parliament felt a million miles away and yet I come from this extraordinary family where particularly my mum would always say of course you can do it but why why did you end up labour well my mum's labour um but more than that actually I grew up in the 1980s I was born in 79 the year that Margaret Thatcher came to power.

37:10I grew up in the 1980s with two loving parents, but in a one-parent household, when families like mine were absolutely under attack on every level from the government. They would talk about single mums in the most disgusting terms. And I remember walking out the house one day with my school uniform on, and I'd spilt my breakfast all the way down my front, which I always did, and I still do now, to be honest. But my mum said to me, you can't do that. I remember how angry she was. She was almost frightened. She said, we are being held to a higher standard than other people and you cannot go out of the house like that.

37:42They were talking about immigrants swamping this country. They meant people like my dad. There were notorious problems with the Greater Manchester, the Manchester Police Force in those days. There was a chief constable called James Anderton who was an out-and-out racist. And my dad was in running battles with them. It was the Moss Side riots. My parents were very instrumental in changing the public perceptions of what was happening during the Moss Side riots. Do you feel racism personally? Yeah, always, always. I mean, the P word was a sort of frequent slur around the school playground. And it just, you know, and the north of England in particular felt like we were just under constant attack from our own government.

38:18And I found it really interesting when we got elected, Rory, in 2010, a lot of the maiden speeches, because it was people of our generation, nearly everybody mentioned Thatcher. On your side, it was in glowing terms. And in ours, it was in not so glowing terms. but it was really interesting that she had that massive, her and her government had that massive, profound impact on people of my generation. She radicalised you, that government. I wouldn't say I'm radicalised. No, radicalised as in made you political and made you want to have a political life. I mean, my family is very political. I think I always would have been quite political.

38:50My dad used to, because my dad's an academic, he always used to say to us, look, I'm not interested in your opinion. I'm interested in your reasons for holding them. And I remember once my sister having this massive argument with him and winning it about her right not to have an opinion at all and him being really chuffed that she'd managed to win the argument. But him being an academic has always, it's really shaped my politics a lot because of this sort of idea in our family that you have to, challenging other people and being challenged back is part of the lifeblood of what makes this country really great.

39:22And it's one of the things I most like about Keir and serving in his team is that he very much comes from that tradition. But Lisa, actually one of the things that I've always been struck by you is that actually you're surprisingly, more than many MPs, quite sort of empathetic and quite good at reaching across divides. I remember that during the Brexit debate, you were actually, I thought, very good at sympathising with Remain voters and Brexit voters. Unlike Alison. She didn't sympathise with me much. No, I didn't. I totally disagree with him on that. And we can get into that in a second. I remember you saying it feels like the entire political class has completely lost its mind.

39:59And I remember thinking that is the best summation of where we are. It was extraordinary. I mean, I remember talking to you about this. I actually remember seeing you in Wigan when I was running for the Tory leadership. But there was a sense of profound divisiveness. There was that moment after the election where I remember Tony Blair saying, I agree with Boris Johnson that there must be no compromise. I never said that. No, that was Tony Blair. I know. I never said that. You were pretty uncompromising. I was uncompromising. Especially on social media. I remember you sitting in the green room of what was then the daily politics and we were waiting to go on.

40:35And you said to me, you must look after yourself. Don't look at social media because I was looking at Twitter, I think. You said, don't look at social media. It's awful. I said, it's you. It's you tweeting abuse at me. That's why I can't look at it. Lisa, we both represented constituencies in North England, which voted Brexit. What did you learn about that? And why do you think, looking back, were we not able to get to a sort of compromised soft Brexit that brought people together? Why did we end up in this? And I think obviously part of the blame is on the hard Brexit side. I also think part of the blame is on the Alistair side of the kind of second referendum side, because both of them thought if they could destroy kind of customs union deals in the middle, one side thought we'll be able to stay in the European Union, the other side thought we'll be able to have a hard Brexit.

41:18Yeah, I mean, 52-48, as soon as I saw that result coming, I was at the national count in Manchester. It's a mandate for compromise. We asked people to make the decision. I didn't. I didn't vote for the referendum, but we asked people to make the decision. If you believe in democracy, then you believe that you respect that. I don't like the fact that we keep having Tory government selected, but we do. So you've just got to deal with it. But it meant that 48 % of the country had obviously taken a different view. And that was a mandate for a soft Brexit, in my view. It was a close relationship, but outside of the European Union.

41:52And for a few years, actually, that was exactly the place we were in. If you remember in 2017, everyone thought Labour would be wiped out in places like Wigan and your former constituency. But we weren't because I think actually the issue had been somewhat neutralised because people said, well, this is where we are. And then, of course, the fight continued. It got reopened. I think part of the problem with that actually was that certainly on our side, but also on the Conservative side, you had a complete breakdown of collective responsibility. Now, I'm somebody who has been mostly sacked, demoted or resigned in every reshuffle I've been in and been in frequent trouble with the whips for 14 years.

42:32And I do believe that politicians have to speak their mind and, you know, you're there to represent your constituents first and foremost, not your party. But the complete lack of collective responsibility, the complete breakdown of that across the political parties made it very difficult to get anything done. People weren't willing to compromise with one another. And I think what we really did was a big disservice to the country because we lost sight of the people in the country. You know, it was really telling to me. Do you remember we tried to do this thing in the middle of it where we tried to get a citizens assembly up and running?

43:03And there was a whole gang of us. So Rory and I were amongst them, but people like Stella Creasy, Caroline Lucas, Joe Swinson. And I remember the really sneery attitude from a lot of MPs saying, oh, sorry, I think that's your job actually to make these decisions. but when they did do a citizens assembly soft brexit was exactly what people came up with they just found a way to compromise and work their way through it and for me that's that's the difference to in politics and protest is that you're willing to negotiate your way through shared challenges to get the right outcome for the majority of people and um protest is the opposite standing on the sidelines and shouting and i i know alistair's going to come in and really have a go at me now but i really honestly i felt that that was mostly what was going on in the political system can i Can we just develop one more?

43:44I mean, I think this, and I'm really pleased you remember that, because I do hope we can return to thinking about things like citizens' assemblies more in the future, because obviously our democracies in Europe and the US are in a bit of trouble. The model of representative democracy is in trouble. And we need to think a little bit more about learning from citizens' assemblies or New Zealand or Switzerland and start experimenting with different ways of involving people. You have to put people back at the centre of their own story. That was very much the sort of message that I gave to our amazing civil service team in DCMS when I took over a few days ago.

44:19Because actually, governments don't change things, people do. And the job of government is to walk alongside them as a partner, helping them give voice to the country that we are. if you look across this country it is the story of ordinary extraordinary people who every day quietly go off and work in their own communities to make this country better and a few years ago when I ran to be Labour leader I sat down with Danny Boyle who was a Bury lad so I went to I went to college in Bury along with Jonathan Ashworth my amazing former colleague and I sat down with him and said to him that the Olympics opening ceremony in 2012 was the last time that I really felt that we told a story about ourselves as a nation that included all of our people in it, that was positive and self-confident and outward looking.

45:05Absolutely. Yeah. But the people of the institutions, if you remember, the scenes for the NHS were about the people who make our National Health Service so great. And I said to him, where did that country go? Because very quickly after 2012, what you had was the IndyRef up in Scotland. you had the rise of dramatic rise of UKIP that went from nowhere to come second or third in so many constituencies that had never ever allowed the far right to get a foothold before you had Brexit we found multiple ways to divide ourselves from one another we lost the ability to understand one another and we became what felt like a very angry nation and he said to me that country is still there it's just waiting for someone to give voice to it and that is your job and I really felt that sense of responsibility walking through those doors into Downing Street notwithstanding that I was relieved to be fully clothed but I really felt that sense of responsibility walking through because there is a better country out there than the governments that we've had and that is my mission that over the next five years I am going to make sure that we do everything that we can from this department that is the beating heart of that soul of the country to enable people to tell that story again.

46:15Okay Secretary of State Alistair quick break.

46:23we don't want to revisit the whole Brexit argument because we'll be here all day we'll do it in the pub later okay but I do I think it's worth just reflecting though because I felt at the time that the decision was so consequential and potentially going to be so damaging for the country that and I made I was one of the few who made no bones about it I felt it had to be stopped if we could and the people's vote for me was a way to try to do that and I've never hidden that. And I still feel that the damage done to the country already has been vast. And I worry, there's nobody happier than I am that you're in power.

46:58But I do worry about this, no customs union, no single market. I think we're still in the position of listening to what we think was the will of the people back then, but where I think the will of the people's already moved and neither of the main parties are addressing that now. That's my worry about where we are now. I remember talking to you about this at Tessie Jowell's funeral. So I had a very poignant moment this week because Tessa was my political mum, basically. She fished me off the back benches. If you remember back in 2010, I was the hard left of the Labour Party before all the Corbyn stuff happened.

47:31And I was her PPS on the Olympics and she was wonderful all the way through until she died. She looked after me. In fact, even after she died, I got a phone call from her wonderful staffer, Liam, who is now the newly elected MP for Beckham. and he said he broke the horrible news and I said can I say something can I go out and say something publicly about how wonderful she was and he said she's already written it and I thought it's just wonderful it's just so Tessa but I had this moment this week where I mean she was the culture secretary who brought the Olympics to Britain and I thought she would be bursting with pride but she would also be bossing me around something chronic and I really had this very big pang of sort of, I miss that.

48:12But I remember talking to you about this at her funeral. And I think the problem with where I think people like you ended up with was that I don't think that, and you can say that you think this is unfair, but I don't think you made enough effort to understand what was driving Brexit. And it wasn't just about the European Union. I know that's one of the things that drove you mad about it was that it wasn't just about the European Union, but actually it was this real sense that people had that they had been that the contribution that they have to make had been completely written off you know Keir made a really important speech two years ago for me it was his most important speech he's ever made where he said for too long our plan for most of the country has been one word redistribution and my government is going to respect the contribution that people have to make so if you look at what is running through everything that we're doing as a new government like a silver thread whether it's the work that i'm doing to get more of our arts culture heritage from every part of the country reflected in our national story whether it's the work you know putting sports like rugby league up front and center whether it's the stuff that johnny reynolds is doing with ed milliband on the industrial strategy really great jobs in parts of the country where within living memory people powered the world through dangerous, difficult work in the mines and giving their children and grandchildren the right to power us through the next century through clean energy.

49:33You look at all the work that we're doing, it's about putting people back in charge of their own destiny and respecting the contribution that they've got to make. And that, for me, is the answer to Brexit, actually. That's the answer to what people were clamouring for when they came out and voted in very large numbers to leave in places like Wigan. Yeah, but I also do think, though, and I was really pleased that one of the first things that Keir Stead, he talked about standards in public life and you talking about ministerial interests and that sort of stuff. I just felt that such a close result being delivered.

50:04And let's be honest, without Farage and Johnson, it wouldn't have happened. And that sort of politics is still there. Anyway, listen, you're shaking, yeah? Because we're not going to agree. Rory and I are raising our eyebrows. We're not going to agree. But honestly, I think this growth mission, if we don't fix some of the mess of Brexit, the growth mission is not going to be delivered. Well, okay, lobbying taken. I think what you'll have heard from David Lammy is a very clear message. His first visit was to Europe. These are our closest neighbours. They should be our closest friends and closest allies, starting particularly with Ireland.

50:39And, you know, we recognise what Brexit has done to Ireland. And we want to make sure, certainly the way that Brexit was done has been very difficult for people there. And we want to make sure that we rebuild those relationships and repair them. And that's been a day one priority. And so, honestly, Alistair, I'll come back on in five years time and you can do what you never do. You can eat your words. Well, we'll see. We'll see. We'll see. But I'll tell you, we've got to fix it. That's my point. we can't pretend it's not happening now listen we haven't got long left rory's trying to talk you've got to go to a very very important point we haven't even gotten to your brief really uh bbc yeah and i you know in the message that you gave yesterday when you were talking to your staff about the culture was over the bbc has been part of the culture war what's your general position on the bbc and how do you see the bbc's future well look i'm a big supporter of the bbc and the the whole notion of public service broadcasting you know my mum's from a um you know from an investigative journalist background i think it's incredibly important that politicians set the framework right but don't stray into trying to lecture people on what content can be produced you know whether it's the bbc or the daily mail it's not my job to do that and you'll see a very different approach from us in government around that you know getting the framework right is important to me but trying to police what is said or is not said is completely in a place to plug my phone in in the department haven't managed to find a plug socket yet so give give us a few days i'm only five days in but you know for me actually the priority when it comes to the media is that for a very long time we've had real problems particularly with our local media and local papers uh regional and local radio very much so um although you know hesitate to say death of because there are some amazing local papers and journalists but you know i think about my stepdad for example he was the editor of world in action for 20 years at granada tv he was working class lad from bury first in his family to go on even to grammar school got into grammar school his mum had to go without food just to afford his school uniform they were immensely proud of him first in his family to go to university he got his big break through local papers and worked his way up to become the editor of World in Action.

53:00I don't know where that pipeline is anymore for young people from constituencies like mine. And I want to change that because who tells the story determines what the story is and what gets reported. And that's really important. So I'm off on my first visit this week. I'm off to Bury to tell a bit of that story and to meet some of the people who can be involved in changing that. the BBC is one of them because that move to Media City up in Salford I mean long before levelling up was even a slogan that is the best example of levelling up that I've ever seen because it hasn't just changed the fact that kids from my constituency now can get jobs in the media industry but it's changed the range of voices that you see on your national news every single day so I'm you know a lot to be celebrated about the BBC and the work that they've been doing A lot of challenges ahead, but give me a chance.

53:51Got to find my phone charger first. Amazing election result, but Labour still got just over a third of the people voting for Labour. And one of the challenges, I think, is how over the next five years you begin to bring more voters over to Labour, even though you've got this huge majority, just more people voting for you. How would you pitch to somebody like me? So somebody who's a kind of floating voter, soft left of the Conservative Party or somebody more like your grandfather, your mother's father. How would you explain your project to people like us so that we would vote for you? There was a phrase that Keir used when he first addressed the nation as the Prime Minister about a government that would tread lightly on people's lives.

54:35And I think that's really important because one of the ways that I've been sort of watching with astonishment and horror, watching what's happening in the Conservative Party in recent years is the way in which a party that traditionally has been very much for sort of freedom and very associated with that concept. I made a speech about freedom when I was first elected and I said, we've got to reclaim this from the right as a notion. And I wouldn't need to make that speech now because it became a very sort of interventionist, heavy handed, you know, particularly in my area. I mean, So illiberal.

55:12Illiberal, yeah. Lecturing people about the lives that they lead and constraining the choices that are available to people. And I think for someone with your politics, Rory, and we know each other reasonably well, I would say that that notion of a government that is utterly devoted to the services of the country, where the priorities that people have in the country are therefore important to us as a consequence and that we'll defend and support them, but we'll do so in a way that isn't dictatorial, but walks alongside people in order to achieve their own ambitions. I would say that that is something that can bring people together right now and bringing people together is the most important job that this government will have.

55:51We've had a horrible decade and a half. It's been the darkest decade and a half in my lifetime and we've found multiple ways to divide ourselves from one another and we've got to pull together and move forwards as a country. So that will be my pitch. Very good. Well, look, you've got to go off to a very important football match. It's a shame for me, isn't it? um and my last question i think is is because you've got you're speaking here to this is going to be more lobbying okay hope you don't mind expect anything less you don't have to give a complete answer now so here you are in the studio of the uk's number one podcast you probably know that you may not know that bbc are going to allow advertising on their podcasts now it doesn't worry us too much because we're doing pretty well but i just think there's maybe lots of big questions attached to that because that will hit the smaller podcasts pretty pretty hard so just asking for you to look at that issue when that comes so actually my stepdad had very strong views about this um as an investigative journalist he felt very very strongly that because they were at granada obviously there was advertising yeah but he felt very very strongly that that could create a

57:01journalism without fear or favor so i can sort of almost hear his voice in my ear right now he died a few years ago of cancer but i can almost hear his voice in my ear saying you need to look at that and take it seriously so not for you but for him excellent i don't care where it comes from my final bit of lobbying which um is is so obvious i don't really need to say but we'd love to have you back in let's say a year's time because it'd be lovely to get a sense of you remembering now what you thought your job was where it is in years time so i'll probably tease you in a year's time and say really you spent a lot of time talking about sport and not a great deal of time in the first interview talking about the other bits of the job.

57:38You talked about media and sport. You've talked less about culture. Well, you haven't asked me about any of it in fairness. I mean, I could wax lyrical about theatre till the cows come home. Music and particularly, you know, for kids in places like Wigan, we're home to the Verve and lots of other great musicians over the years, but the live music venues have disappeared. We talked about sport, but we didn't talk about grassroots sport, which is the visible symbol in communities of how much our kids matter to us. So these will be some of the things that are my priority. So I tell you what, ask me back on in a year's time and let me talk about some of those things.

58:10Because honestly, and actually, you'll like this one, Alistair, but there's been a real impact of the Brexit deal that we got on musicians in particular, being able to tour. These are all things that we've got to deal with as a government. How much do you think is about money? What musicians tour? No, the challenges you're going to face to try and get these things improved. There's a challenge around money, particularly because if you look at the arts in particular um when it comes to private philanthropy it tends to be in london and the big great institutions arts outside of london tends to be council funded and council funding has been devastated over the last decade and a half and it's meant that the arts is often the first thing to be cut and i remember being in stoke a few years ago and i did question time and the audience were telling me after the event that after the show finish that they were really, they were livid because the council had put on an exhibition about ceramics and a lot of the ceramics on display had come from China, which for anyone who knows the history of Stoke will know is just an enormous insult.

59:11But, you know, we've got the jewellery quarter in Birmingham, we've got the ceramics industry in Stoke, brass bands in my constituency, massive, you know, part of our heritage and cultural legacy. And they're all the things that have been most impacted by the cuts to council funding. So we've got to find a way of making sure that the funding that is there gets to the right places and supports a diversity of of things um my favorite museum in the whole country is the people's history museum in manchester and it's never it's funded by all of our local councils across greater manchester because we know how important it is don't think it's ever had a penny of government money so i've asked already asked the civil servants to look at where all that money is who's being appointed to the boards where they come from in the country you know so that the decisions are being made by people who understand the richness and diversity of our arts our our cultural heritage and the importance of that to communities so in a year's time ask me back on and i'll tell you i'm getting on thank you thank you and and final final final question because one of the things we took not brexit again alice no no one of the things rory and i've talked about a lot is this the need particularly after the recent years for a bit of ministerial stability has kia sort of given an indication that no in fact i am shuffleitis is not no in fact i i mean he said that publicly but But to me, sadly, it's been very much the opposite.

1:00:29So at the first cabinet meeting, he said... Well, he said, if you balls it up, you're out. Yeah, he said, the emphasis is on delivery. What I want that to be is your watch word. Write it on the wall in your office. I want delivery. And then he said, and Lisa in particular, if you don't deliver the right result in the Euros, then you'll be the shortest lived appointment I make. You can't be held responsible for that. You should be held responsible for that. Definitely held responsible for that. All your fault. In Gareth, you must trust. well Lisa thank you for coming in no thanks a lot good luck in the euros well you know yeah thanks very much there's a lot riding on it for me so yeah fingers crossed thank you again bye bye

1:01:08so Rory that was a very one very excited cabinet minister a tremendous really great appointment and makes me very cheerful we all have different favorites but I think her style of communication her story the grace with which she handles it i'm i'm really excited that she's in the team i'm disappointed in a way i mean one of the sad things is is this reshuff light is absolutely i spent an hour and a half with the labor shadow prisons minister just a week before the election who was then replaced i spent a long time but good good replacement good replacement but the amount of time i'm spending briefing labor ministers on portfolios when they then move to another portfolio.

1:01:49It's interesting, you talked about the access talks and of course the access talks for those that don't know is where shadow ministers before an election can meet civil servants, can talk through their priorities. It'd be interesting just, the switch was pretty limited though. There wasn't that much change. It was relatively limited but Lisa had really got into the international development brief. She was very patient. We had an hour on the phone when I was picking kids up from school trying to talk about direct cash transfers. So I'm sorry about that but I'm really pleased she's taken this role.

1:02:17I suspect, but maybe this is just wishful thinking, that some of the stuff I want to hear more about, which is archaeology, the National Trust, Hadrian's Wall. She mentioned the National Trust in her speech? Yeah, the British Museum, classical music. I bet she's more interested in this. She's letting on. Oh, yeah. No, listen, I think if I were an MP and could pick a minister, I think the two, obviously, there's the foreign office and treasury you know goes without saying are really really interesting and etc but the two of the rest of them that i would most be attracted by would be northern ireland and dcms well you'd love that because you love you love music and you love sport yeah i mean it couldn't be a better cultural i'm not denying that at all but i mean and also you'd be in charge of the media but wait a second if you think about sort of culture which is partly your music side but also you're going to theater media which you love and sport i mean it couldn't be a better job yeah could it yeah is this a pitch that we're going no it's not a pitch it's really not a pitch and i hope you're trying to no i want lisa to stay there for the entire parliament um and and i but i think tessa jow is an interesting role model to choose because it's one of those jobs i think where you don't automatically have massive budgets and often within government budget is what sort of gives you the levers but you can do great things and achieve great things you also have some of the most articulate creative people in the country on your side if you make friends with them.

1:03:45So you then have Anthony Gormley advocating for you. Did you see the size of the donation he made to Labour? Anthony Gormley gave half a million pounds to Labour. I wonder if we sort of, you know, what if we radicalised him in this very studio? But no, I mean, I think it's incredible. And Tessa Jowell, I think I've said to you before, the reason she's burnt into my memory and why I admire her so much is I remember her just making a very simple speech saying the number one question she always asks herself She went to a hospital. Would my mum want to be in the hospital? And I just think in that phrase is everything that you need to know about Tessa Jowell and how to do politics.

1:04:19But the other thing about Lisa, she was downplaying it, but I think to have been, because as you know, ups and downs in politics can be very, very personal, very, very humiliating. So she was shadow foreign secretary. She was almost leader. She was third in the leadership election. She very bravely stood against Jeremy Corbyn and was right. I mean, you would say totally right. Corbyn was a disaster for the Labour Party and she was one of a group of very courageous Labour MPs who were like, we're not putting up with this, we're not having anything to do with it. It's the wrong direction. Whereas Keir Starmer, who went with Jeremy Corbyn, served in the shadow cabinet as now leader.

1:04:52so there will be parts of her will think wait a second i made the right call on jeremy corbyn i was third in the leadership i'm a pretty impressive individual i was shadow foreign secretary and then as you say she got to mojo she doesn't phrase it like that but the reality is that development job that's what i've seen what she didn't do was go and whinge she didn't brief against kira in the press or much that i could tell and she then has now you know ended up in what you got the feeling was a job that she absolutely loves and feels she can make a Who's not going to love that job? But I also think, I mean, it's another thing, I mean, we're not into the kind of anthropology of people's backgrounds, but there's a sort of hint of two types of labor here that we're seeing in our interviews.

1:05:32There's the labor of Angela Rayner with that astonishing story of a mother who basically couldn't read or write growing up in intergenerational poverty beyond imagining. I mean, she said that her mother and her - And then you've got the intellectual left. And then you've got the intellectual left, her father with his star double first, his 9A levels, the Marxist intellectual. Her mother, who yes, I'm sure it was very tough, but she was the head of a major department in Granada. Her stepfather was head of current affairs at Granada. Her grandfather was a lord. And I think it's... I mean, again, that encourages me because I do think this process of reunifying is partly about reunifying every bit of Britain.

1:06:21And I think what I like about Lisa is that I saw it in Brexit, but I can see it also with that, that she's somebody who is able to sympathize with lots of different bits of Britain. I think she understands London well, and she understands the North. I think she understands kind of liberal public school educated blue winning peers with ride on mowers and enormous parts because that's her grandfather and her mother's childhood she's not over the brexit debate though she's still arguing away with me she knows i was right that's because she and i are right and you're wrong alistair and that's just the basic thing well on that false note let's end this episode of the rest is politics leading see you soon see you soon thank you bye