90. Why we should ban all money from politics and kids from social media (Peter Malinauskas)

26:50That really fascinates me. So there's Clement Attlee, Labour Prime Minister after the war, and Paul Bew, kind of fairly right-wing historian, I think it's fair to say. Is that right, Rory? That's okay. Yeah, it's Paul's son, John, I think. But yeah, he then became part of the Boris Johnson's national security apparatus. That's right, yeah. He becomes an advisor to Boris Johnson. And a book he's written about a Labour prime minister is taken up by a Labour premier in South Australia who says it makes him think about the job differently and do things differently. Can you think of a specific? Well, of course, during the war period, Atleian was very keen to work collaboratively with Churchill in the war cabinet.

27:31And no one really gave Atleian much of a chance of winning that election at the conclusion of World War II. But of course, what Attlee did was apply thought beyond the bipartisan approach to the war effort. He was thinking about reconstruction. And here in Australia, in the middle of COVID, there was no appetite in our domestic politics, quite rightly, for partisanship. I was the only opposition leader in a state level that survived COVID because other opposition leaders were chipping away at their government's responses to COVID. We took an approach that said, look, we're going to provide essentially total bipartisanship for the conservative government in South Australia on their approach to COVID because they handed it on the basis of science and did a pretty good job.

28:12Having done that, then we devoted our effort to thinking about at the end of COVID, people are going to want to know what's the legacy of COVID going to be. And so, you know, that was the same thing that Attlee did and, of course, led to the creation of the NHS. And we had similar policies about how we were going to reinvest in the health system and try and build it back up again. You did something very interesting there, which is not common in British politics, which is to say about your opposition, well, you know, they did it on the basis of science, and I think they did a pretty good job. Generally, in British politics, we're very tribal.

28:46And even if we secretly think that the other party might have done an okay job on something, we never begin to give them credit for anything, for fear, I guess. Alistair, why is it we never give them credit for anything? Is it we're worried that a newspaper might pick up and quote us saying something remotely nice about the other party. I've never heard Labour ever say anything complimentary about 13 or 14 years of Tories in office. And I've never heard the Tories say anything complimentary about 13 years of Labour in office. Look, you're right. It is not done a lot. I don't think it's not done at all.

29:15I think that one of the reasons that the Northern Ireland peace process worked is that from the word go, Tony Blair gave credit to John Major for what he tried to do. John Major gave Tony Blair total support through the whole thing. I think during COVID, it was interesting listening to you, Peter, say that about your approach, because I think Keir Starmer tried to make that his approach in relation to COVID, but with Boris Johnson as Prime Minister, it became impossible. I also think, Roy, that if you look at some of the debates that they've been recently, and we talked on the podcast about how Rishi Sunak actually is now taking a very different tone.

29:48I think it's sometimes that the tribalism, the forced tribalism, comes from that sort of Westminster parliamentary system exacerbated by the way that our media operates. Well, Peter, what's your take on our politics right now? In the UK? Yeah, when you look at what's going on in the UK right now. You know, there's been a change of government and that always presents, you know, that is the greatest moment in time I imagine for any new leader. Like I, even now I think back to that window of six months post being elected and knowing what I know now, I ask myself, would I do things differently? So, you know, the new Prime Minister is enjoying that.

30:28Obviously, he's got some challenges on his hands with the events there in the last 48 hours. But just in terms of supporting the government of the day or being generous to your opponents, I actually think that generates a degree of credibility within the electorate. You know, when they hear the opposition leader every single day smashing the government, after a while it's just dog barks. You know, it's fulfilling people's expectations. But if every now and then you are being generous to your opposition, it creates an environment of giving more weight to when you are being critical, particularly given, depending on how you characterize your criticism as well.

31:05So I do wonder, though, whether or not compulsory voting changes the equation there, because part of the challenge in a non-compulsory voting environment, particularly where turnout's declining, as we see in the US and the UK, you've got to motivate your base. You've got to make them angry. You've got to fire them up and get them out to vote. No Australian politician has to worry about that. Everyone's going to vote. So the task is to persuade people who have voted conservative at the last election to choose to vote Labor at this election and vice versa. The Liberal Party. On compulsory voting, Peter, you're speaking to the absolute converted here.

31:40We're both massive converts. But obviously, every time we speak in favor of it, I get challenged with enormous numbers of emails and Twitter attacks. So the two normal challenges that people make are, it's somehow an imposition on civil liberties. It's the government imposing. The second one that I get quite a lot on Twitter is, come on, Rory, have you ever met a voter? What do you mean you're going to force everybody to vote? Right. So Peter, addressing my kind of sceptical friends or adversaries in Britain who are against compulsory voting, try to make the case for it and explain why it's not as bad as people in Britain fear.

32:13You know, in both the US and the UK, there is an imposition from government on people every single day in most elements of their lives. And so I think the best example is if the government has the power to compel you to pay tax, why shouldn't they have the ability to compel you to have a say on how those taxes are spent. And I had a ding-dong argument with an American in a pub one day, and he had an answer to every argument I had except that one, so I want to stick with it. Just to close off on the donations before we move on to social media, you've sort of told us why you want to do it. I'm interested in how you're going to do it because it strikes me as a very difficult challenge.

32:57And we mentioned, you know, I mentioned Paul Keating. I read some of the stuff that Paul has been saying about it. He's very, very opposed to this. And there are opponents. Rory and I, by the way, are completely with you on it. We think this is a great thing. It's why we wanted to have you on the podcast, so is that lots of British politicians could maybe hear some of your arguments. But how are you going to do it, and where's the opposition coming from? Okay, so look, we'll wait and see about the opposition, where the opposition is coming from. I took this policy to the election and there was not much love for it, even on my own side of politics, I've got to say internally for a range of reasons.

33:33But I announced it before the election, honestly, because I knew that if we were successful in the election, day one, there becomes a disincentive to do this because fundraising is a lot easier for incumbents than it is for oppositions. That's the truth of it. unless the government of the day is in its dying days and the writing's on the wall. And the simple reason for that is if you're buying a ticket to a fundraiser, you're far more in, if you're a business, you're more interested to hear what the Premier or the Prime Minister is going to do versus what the opposition might like to do one day if they get the chance.

34:09You know, those things have different weight. The way we're doing it is, firstly, is that we're capping expenditure. We're putting a hard ceiling on the amount that can be spent by political parties and individual candidates in seats. So a hard cap on the amount that could be expended. Something that we've actually already got in South Australia. We're just going to lower that cap a little bit. But then the second thing that we're doing is that we're going to publicly fund up to that cap. So it's a dual measure cap and then publicly fund up to the cap. Now, there are complexities with this because it is diabolically complex for a range of reasons, including the high court has been rather restrictive in this, but we've developed a few models that we think can navigate through that path, including importantly, the preservation of the interests of independents and also a new entrance to the political system.

35:04They've got to have an ability to participate as well. Peter, talk me through that because I've run as an independent and it's brucely tough to run against the main parties. So imagine I was running in one of the constituencies in your state. How would I qualify to actually get the money to allow me to run against the Labour candidate if I'm an independent who's come from nowhere? So you have to get enough signatures within your constituency to nominate in the first instance, but the second that you qualify to nominate, you will then get an upfront payment, a modest one, but an upfront payment from the state to initially fund your campaign.

35:38The second thing that we're doing is that we will continue to allow new entrants, that is non-incumbent candidates who aren't in a political party, so an independent new entrant, that we're going to preserve their ability to fundraise up to a maximum of$2 ,700 per donation. But if Rory Stewart's running as an independent in the state seat of Croydon, if you're elected, at that point, you're in the system and you can no longer fundraise. Okay. Lowe's covered there. loads still to do we're going to come back after a short break and talk about the next band that Peter wants to bring in and that's on young people having access to social media

36:24welcome back to the rest is politics leading with me Rory Stewart and me Alistair Campbell and social media Peter again two very simple questions what is it you're trying to do why are you trying to do it and how are you trying to do it? I think there's enough peer-reviewed research out there now, Alistair, that makes it clear social media access for children is actually doing them harm, particularly around mental health. I don't think this is a dispute anymore. We've seen journal after journal publish reports along these lines. The second element is the more fundamental sort of societal question.

37:02I think democracy is in difficult shape at the moment. It's probably going through the most challenging period, certainly since World War II. And I think there's a number of things that governments can do to help insulate democracy. We've already spoken about compulsory voting, banning money from politics. But I think social media and disinformation is really dangerous, particularly in the minds of young people who don't yet have the critical faculty to be able to account for misinformation in the way that you hope an adult would. That's an even adult struggle. So we think the best thing to do is just get social media out of the hands of children.

37:45This idea, or the model that we are pursuing and set to deliver, is based on the model that Rhonda Santos has deployed in Florida. And, you know, there's not too many things I probably find myself agreeing with Ron DeSantis on, but I actually thought what he's doing is a good thing. And I don't have any shame in saying that we would like to repeat it. Peter, tell us how that model works in practice. So I've got a nine-year-old son. Tell me a little bit about what would then happen to him and his access to social media. So we've appointed the former Chief Justice of the Australian High Court to provide advice on the best legal mechanism to do this.

38:22We're going to release that report hopefully in September. But put simply, we want to put in place a piece of legislation that creates a burden or an onus or an obligation on social media platforms. They know the age. They have the capacity to know the age of people who have an account. Rory Stewart can't just get a social media account. You have to go through a process. You have to fill out a form and the like. There should be age verification. The obligation should be on the social media platform. And if you're under the age of 14, you should not be allowed to get one. Now, that sounds simple.

38:52But of course, in practice, it's complex. But that's the detail that we're working through. And since we've made our announcement that we're doing this and intend to complete the work this year, most other states and territories have indicated that they're getting on board. We've got a major summit in Australia in a couple of weeks to do that. The federal government and federal opposition are keen to deploy it. So I think this is going to happen. But the only other element is giving for children between 14 and 16, that would require parental consent. Like I said, the model has been applied in Florida.

39:24It seems to be working. We don't see any reason why we can't achieve it here in South Australia and Australia. Peter, I mean, it's very exciting for us. But of course, as you can imagine, we've been interviewing on this podcast people like Nick Clegg, who's a kind of big employee of Facebook and Heather Thorning-Schmidt and others. And they're very much saying, yeah, you haven't read the evidence. There's no evidence that social media is damaging people. There's no evidence it's polarizing. So these big social media companies obviously have a huge interest in trying to block this. Are you hearing from them?

39:56What are they saying? How do you mount cataracts? Or are you brilliantly managing to start a revolution in South Australia that Facebook hasn't really woken up to and they're going to not notice it until it's swept its way across the world? Oh, look, I'd love it to be the latter. They've noticed, but they're not engaging with us despite our invitations to do so. and that includes with the former Chief Justice of the High Court. Why do you think that is? I think they're making a big mistake there. Yeah, me too. We're hopeful that changes. When we announced that we're doing this publicly, I made it clear that we'd much rather work with them than without them.

40:32It doesn't mean that we're necessarily going to agree clearly, but they're a legitimate stakeholder in this and it'd be easier if they were on board and engaged. I don't know if they think they'd rather put their head in the sand or just be dismissive of it or to fight it once they see the legislation. It worries me because I'd like to know what they're thinking. Yeah. If I'm honest about it. I know Nick Clegg was also a supporter of electoral donation reform when he was in the coalition government. So anyway. But look, we're doing this. I met with a gentleman by the name of Vivek Murthy, who is the US Surgeon General in the Biden administration and had that position in the Obama administration.

41:13I was a real privilege to meet him, an extraordinary human being, exceptionally accomplished and clearly very intelligent. He's issued a nationwide US Surgeon General warning, asking parents to get their kids off social media. That is how strongly he believes the evidence is that this is now decidedly doing them harm. And he cited to me an exercise they did in the US, which I thought was really interesting. They asked a bunch of 13-year-olds, are you on social media? And they all said yes. Then they asked them, would you like to give up social media? And they all said no. Hardly surprising. But then they asked them, if you knew that all your friends were giving up social media, would you do it too?

41:57And they all said yes. And a significant proportion of those said, well, we would actually prefer that. Which is a demonstration of the fact that kids aren't necessarily on social media because they love it, but because they've got no choice but not to. if they choose not to be on social media, they're actively choosing to disengage with their friends. And that's not an option to a young person. We've already banned mobile phones in public schools in South Australia. We're the first state to have a total ban. We've had it in place now for just on 12 months. And all the reports are being resoundingly positive, not just from teachers and principals talking about how loud schoolyards are, but actually from kids saying they actually prefer it.

42:37What do you define? When you talk about the harm that social media does to young people, how do you define that harm? So we've seen, well, I mean, it's defining a number of respects. Firstly, it's demonstrated in the evidence of the rise of diagnoses of mental health conditions, depression, anxiety, and it's most extreme, of course, tragically, in the form of self-harm. All these numbers are going up globally. And there's a bit of research out there that points to the correlation between that and the development of social media platforms on phones with front-facing cameras. That seems to be the moment where things started to change.

43:19But anecdotally, not just anecdotally, but also we know that bullying has always existed in schools. I think it's naive to suggest otherwise. What changed with social media is, once upon a time, if Kit got bullied at school, they went home and found a place of refuge. There is no refuge in a world of social media. And kids go on home and they're looking at their phone and their screens and the bullying continues or exacerbates. It's that permanent sense of being under siege for a young person has a particularly deleterious impact on their upbringing. And you think about how I'm a politician. I'm a professional politician.

43:56You would think that I am trained to read comments on social media and dismiss them and think whatever. And largely, I can. But even I, every now and then, read a comment on social media aimed at me, and I still feel the pinch. Imagine if you're a 13-year-old kid. It worries me greatly. Peter, let's just develop this for a second, because we've got actually a pattern now around the world of relatively young, talented politicians leaving politics, particularly women. and part of that I think must be this continual abuse undoubtedly on social media just talk about it a little bit and you know you seem a relatively as you say balanced robust person but just give listeners a sense of what it can be like for politicians particularly female politicians when it's really going wrong what the emotional impact is and why it means that sometimes good people feel a bit abused and harassed in public service?

44:59I think politicians often are a demonstration of the best of humankind and the worst, you know, but ultimately we are human. We have all the fragilities and the failings of human beings. But politicians are always looking for feedback. They want to know what their constituents think of the work that they're doing and what they're advocating for and are they doing a good job. Again, that's human. but how do you get that feedback outside of elections i mean there's published polls but they tend not to occur at the candid level they're normally at the national level so that doesn't really apply to a local mp in their constituency so social media becomes a proxy for feedback but of course it's a terrible one because the people who are motivated to contribute on social media um almost always are particularly strident in their views there's not a normal thing to sit around and tap out responses to politicians on social media.

45:52But politicians gravitate towards that because they are yearning for a sense of how their performance is going and how good a job they're doing for their constituency. So on one level, it's rational that they read comments and social media responses. And then before you know it, you're heading into the rabbit hole of a pretty dark place. And I think that infects your view. And after a while, it could take a toll on the best person. So I do think it's having an impact. I don't know what the answer to that Because, of course, social media and politics can be a platform for good dialogue and exchange of ideas.

46:24Yeah, I guess it's not helped when the main platform is owned by somebody who seems to be becoming as big a narcissist and sociopath as Donald Trump. But we'll, let's move on from that. Let's just talk briefly about AUKUS. You're a big, big supporter of AUKUS, the tripartite defense arrangements between Australia, the UK and the US. Is that mainly for strategic reasons, your security interests as you see them? Is there also an added kind of huge defence industry element for South Australia? My advocacy principle is oriented to the first one, but there's no denying it's in our state's interests industrially and the demand it creates for labour and improving our economic complexity.

47:03But for the country, this is strategically critical. Look, Australia's defence posture needs to reflect the time that we're living in and the part of the world that we see changing around us. You know, Australia is in far closer proximity to the UK, to the biggest military buildup that we've seen since World War II. And you've basically got two options. You can either say, look, that's not a problem, nothing we should worry about, let things run their course, which is a legitimate option, or say, no, that creates an environment that warrants a response. And I'm certainly in the latter category.

47:38I think that it is mission critical now more than ever, particularly as we see the politics of isolationism in some parts of the world on the rise, that Australia think about our sovereign capability to have a defence sector and to produce the equipment that we would require to defend ourselves. And the AUKUS arrangement, I think, gives us the most accelerated pathway to move up the value chain in terms of the sort of products that we afford our men and women in uniform. I think this is my view, and this differs from other people's in my party, at the membership level. But I think these accords with the best traditions of the Australian Labor Party and how we understand our capacity as a small middle power to be able to have a positive influence in the region.

48:24Just quickly for listeners to explain, at the core of the AUKUS arrangement is Australia constructing next-generation, high-technology nuclear-powered submarines. And this was controversial because they initially had a deal with France, which the UK and US supplanted, and a lot of the technology that Premier is talking about is in relation to developing that engineering capacity and building capacity. Premier, can I just also give you a chance to talk about what it feels like to look at the world from Australia's perspective? Because obviously we in Britain are surrounded by very mature democracies, but you are looking at a world where you're facing directly at an authoritarian China.

49:03You're looking at a populist India. You're looking at Prabowo having been elected in Indonesia. You have in Singapore a very effective but relatively authoritarian state. I mean, there's all these very different political models surrounding you in Asia Pacific. What does that teach you about the inevitability of liberal democracy and the direction of the world? Look, I think for Australians who think about it and have that in their consciousness, it elevates in their minds the fact that we simply We cannot take the liberal democracy that has largely served our country exceedingly well for granted, plain and simple.

49:41I suspect my view about this has been informed by my heritage and the circumstances at which my family found themselves in Australia. But I do think there's a rising consciousness in the broader Australian public about the fact that geopolitically, we are in a more precarious time in the fastest changing region on the planet. I also think there's a rising awareness that isolationism in America is sort of gathering steam. And while the Australian-US alliance is in a stronger position as it's ever been in many respects, it's not something you can always assume will be true because policies can change.

50:23Now, I don't say that to diminish in any way, shape or form the strength of the relationship at the moment, but it would be reckless on behalf of Australia to assume the status quo will be here forevermore. So there's a legitimacy in wanting to pursue a sovereign capability. And I think more Australians are on board with that now than they may have been if you were trying to prosecute that argument 10 years ago. One of the things that struck me when I was out in Australia that time that I met you at the festival. I also met some of your state premier colleagues, Jacinda in Victoria and Chris Minns in New South Wales.

50:58I do get a sense of a kind of confidence about Australia at the moment. And the thing I felt whenever the discussion came to AUKUS was that it was basically talking a lot about the A and a lot about the US and not that much about the UK. And I just wondered the extent to which the UK, which has these extraordinary historic links with Australia, is genuinely, as opposed to the kind of sentimental stuff, genuinely how much do we feature in the thinking and the debates that happen around politics in Australia? In a way that when I think we used to have conversations with Paul Keating, I kind of really genuinely felt that we were quite a big part of the kind of Australian political mindset.

51:43it i think it's in my state there's a real aware awareness of the uk's role in the orcas relationship because we're going to be building submarines with the uk more than the us we're taking a yeah you know i've been to barrow in the uk where you you build the submarines and there's a lot of attention about what happens in barrow and and derby with rolls-royce and what that will mean for our state i think that the reason why there's been more noise around the us element of orcas is because there are questions, there have been questions in the public realm and in the media, in the commentariat around whether or not a change of administration in the US to a Trump presidency would compromise Orkans.

52:24Now, I'm actually quite confident it won't and hopeful that it won't. I guess my question, Peter, goes more broadly than Orkans in defence. If you and your colleagues from around Australia were sitting there having a dinner with Antin Albanese and you're just talking about Australia's strategic interests, Rory mentioned, You know, you're always going to have US top of mind. You're always going to have China top of mind. But where do we kind of figure? I'm not asking this out of need. I'm just interested the extent to which I feel we've kind of slipped quite low down the pecking order. I think that it would be not discussed too broadly up until two things, Ukraine and AUKUS.

53:04I think both of those things have completely re-elevated the Australian-UK relationship, not just in a defence context, but in a government-to-government and political one. Other one I would say is Brexit also sort of created a sense that there was an opportunity to have a more direct relationship with the UK than what was the case previously. I'm not saying that that's a considered view. I'm just saying there's certainly been a sense of that and the pursuit of a free trade agreement with the UK speaks to that. Last one from me, Premier. I'm looking forward very much to, I'm coming to Australia end of October, beginning of November.

53:39I'm going around speaking, but like Alistair and Perth and Canberra and Sydney and Melbourne, and I'm looking forward to it very much. Give me a sense though on what I should be looking for on that visit in terms of how we can build stronger relationships between Australia and the UK and what might be involved in that and how those connections work and whether the monarchy is part of that or not, or what other dimensions apart from defence can bring these countries closer together? Well, an acknowledgement that we're better at cricket and at the Summer Olympics will get you along. I think many of the challenges that we see domestically in the UK are comparable to some of them that we see here in Australia.

54:22I look at the NHS and our public health system and the aspirations are the same, but the challenges are just as acute. And I think any example where we contemplate how the welfare state can modernise or how public service delivery can improve in a modern economy where government's capacity to throw a large S at these services is diminishing. I think anything that speaks to that challenge and a sense of shared hope but shared knowledge to unlock a pathway forward, I think is powerful and meaningful. There's still far more commonality in terms of public policy ideals and challenges between Australia and the UK and almost any other country.

55:09And I think when we think about those in a more human fashion and how we can help each other, I think that still captivates the attention of Australians who are interested in public policy. My final question, Peter, and thanks for all your time, is this, that you're quite often written up as a contender for possible future labour leadership nationally, federally, which of course would mean Australian Prime Minister, but you keep brewing it out. Is that genuine?

55:42I was thinking this in the context of what you said about Tim Walz. I mean, a few weeks ago, he was chugging along thinking, oh, well, Joe Biden's going to stand and I'll carry on being governor of Minnesota. And now suddenly it looks like he might end up as being vice president. If you felt that the Labor Party thought you were the guy, is that not impossible to resist? Do you know, my state, we're a comparatively smaller jurisdiction to other states in the country, but that brings with it a degree of agility to give us the flexibility to do a few things that creates an impact and maybe even an impact that gets taken up across the rest of the country.

56:22And so being a premier of a state has got an enormous amount of possibility and authority attached to it. that means you can do a lot of good unencumbered from other considerations. I did have an opportunity to go into federal politics, but I ended up choosing this option in a way that I didn't anticipate I would myself. So I feel as though I've made a decision to dedicate myself to making as big a difference from this privileged position I've got, and it's just not on my – more than not being on my radar, it's I don't have any intention to do that, and I feel quite comfortable saying, you know, I'm ruling it out and what have you.

56:57And think about how disingenuous it would be, Alistair, for someone in a position such as the one I've got to be thinking about the next job more than the one that I've got now. You know, I'm alive for the fact that these jobs are temporary by nature. You know, in politics you could be here one day and they're the next and down the next. So you've got to make every post a winner where you've got the chance and run it a million miles an hour, which is what I'm really enjoying doing at the moment. And, you know, we've been able to do a few things that the rest of the country is paying interest in.

57:26So I don't know any other position that would give me the ability to do that. Okay. Well, I'm taking that as an 85 % no.

57:34No, it really, really has been great talking to you. And I think our listeners will, at the end of that, understand why people do talk about you in those terms. Premier, we really, really appreciate it. All right, Peter. Peter, listen, lovely to talk to you. Thanks very much. Cheers.

57:51Well, Alistair, thank you. I really, really like that. To be honest, this is a tradition in leading. I was a little bit sceptical. I looked in my diary and trying to explain to Shoshana who we were interviewing. I was like, what's going on here? But I trust you. Actually, that was terrific. I really liked it. Of course, one of the reasons I really loved it is I felt that unlike somebody who's a working politician right in the middle of British politics. He was somebody who was able to talk like a human being, step back a little bit, be a bit more confident, be a bit more honest about stuff. I was very taken with him.

58:27What did you make of him? Look, I've only ever met him that once and spoken to him a few times since. I really like the guy. I think he's very impressive. I was very, very struck as well when I was out in Adelaide, how much people liked him, including people who weren't necessarily Labour people. And I think the reason why, I think it was, quote, just a state premier. I'm not sure even I would necessarily have said, let's have him on the podcast. But I think it is really interesting what he's trying to do in politics with this donation banning. And I really, I think it's interesting as well, the stuff on social media.

59:02And by the way, on the banning, you say that he talks, you know, he'll talk with a bit more openness than serving politicians, etc you know i suspect that will cause him quite a lot of grief within that debate because it is quite very it's a difficult thing that he's trying to do um no i he's the sort of politician of which we need more which are people who kind of take tough positions argue for them hold out for them and if they work they work if they don't they don't then he'll try and move on to the next thing i also think he's a without being too romantic about him i think he's a model of what can work quite well in a modern democracy.

59:38I mean, if we think about the kind of things that wind people up about politicians in Britain, obviously, there's a lot of people who are very fed up, understandably, with old Etonians. They're fed up with professional politicians and spads. They're looking for, I think, people who are relatable. And he has, I think, a good combination of being, as you say, a kind of good-looking, straightforward guy. But also, I like the fact, And as I said, that he praises the opposition when it does things he likes. He talks like a normal person. There's no sense of kind of super caution and message points that he's pushing across.

1:00:17He's somebody who you'd imagine is a kind of reassuring CEO of a big company too. Yeah, but he has. But listen, he's got a lot of politics in him. He knows how to do politics. Look, one of the reasons, you've all asked me why I like Australia so much. One of the reasons is that I do think when you go there, and I think you'll find this as well, When you meet the politicians, they're pretty high quality at various levels. You know, I mentioned the other two that I met, really impressive people, you know, that you would feel totally comfortable in the idea that they are serious senior political figures.

1:00:49And there is something really rough and tough about Australian politics. But there's also, you know, I find them very, you know, he's a very, very thoughtful guy, I think. Shall I tell you my favourite part of that interview was when he suddenly dropped in a book about Clement Attlee and changed the way that he governed. I loved that. That was wonderful, wasn't it? And Alistair, just sort of quickly to finish, I was saying I could see him as somebody who'd be a good CEO of a company and you said, yeah, yeah, but he's more political than you're acknowledging. Tell us a little bit about that. What are the ways in which you, maybe me or another listener, might miss the fact that he's actually a pretty skilful politician?

1:01:22He gave you one indication of where I felt that. So for example, he made the point that he campaigned on something that he knew was costing him a bit of support. Right. Because he knew that if he won, he would need that having campaigned for it and fought for it to allow him then to do it, as he said, from day one. It goes back a little bit to your point about the Ken Clarke theory that you have about the current Labour government. You've got to upset people sometimes to be able to get things done. And I also think that the pushback that he got on the stuff that he was saying today about a current issue in Australian politics to do with universities.

1:02:03And there was that little sort of twinkle in his eye that said, yeah, I know I'm going to have to have a few conversations about this and I'm going to have to manage my way through this. And he said, you know, I'll be seeing Albo at the weekend. I just think he's one of those guys who, as he said in the discussion about donations, not a transactional politician, but a relationship politician. He will have good relationship, I suspect, with a very, very big network. Skelful politician, but also confident enough to be prepared to be frank about the damage that social media does, even on him. I thought that was nice.

1:02:35I mean, he's not presenting himself as completely invulnerable. He's convincing because he, yeah, I think he's able he's able to have the confidence to open up a little bit about other sides of things great okay i'm glad you enjoyed that as ever rory i've been proven right about our choice of guests as always as always have a great have a great day bye