"A Grim Enemy For Reasons We Do Not Yet Comprehend"

12:01Hannah Fry:Right, they just accumulate over, I mean, millennia.

12:05Michael Stevens:Wow, so they don't like rot because it's just too dry for microbial life to...

12:09Hannah Fry:So you have just basically got this mountain of bird poop that you can dig into. And the Incas, they knew about all of this. They were really careful. So they had it as this capital offense to kill any of the birds, to disturb any of the birds. And they had these really strict rules about how you would dish out this bird poop to different farms. But as soon as the Spanish got involved, right, found all of this stuff, they're like, whoopee, liquid gold all over the place. Thank you very much. And there are, I mean, countless battles, you know, fights, naval fights for essentially this fertilizer.

12:45Hannah Fry:This, by the way, is part of the reason why Americans have got Midway Atoll, Baker Island and Howland Island, right? Really? which are part of its Pacific naval empire. It has those because they had bird poop on them. I did not know that. Right. That was it. They were looking for poop. Wow. Isn't that extraordinary? Well, yeah. There's this whole massive war that happened, the War of the Pacific between Bolivia and Chile, because Bolivia decided that they were going to impose, see if this resonates, a 10 % tariff on any exports of bird poop. At which point Chile was like, no, thank you very much and invaded.

13:21Hannah Fry:and as a result, Bolivia lost its entire coastline and sort of there's still this ongoing fight about... Jeez, wow. You know, this is a lot of stuff, right?

13:30Michael Stevens:So, yeah, when you're at the beach and a seagull poops on you, you should be like, dude, countries used to be invaded for this stuff. People lost their lives for this stuff. People lost their lives. And I just got some for free.

13:43Hannah Fry:Yeah. Well, don't people say it's lucky to have a bird poo on you? That should be why. Hey,£5.50. Yeah.

13:50Michael Stevens:Yeah.

13:50Hannah Fry:Yeah, I can eat tomorrow.

13:52Michael Stevens:No, but this is really, really significant that we had reached a point where to keep the human population thriving and growing was impossible. Like any other species would have just reached that ceiling and died off down to a smaller population. But humans, as our story goes, always find a way. Always find a way. always find a way.

14:21Hannah Fry:Yeah. And part of the reason why we found a way is because we knew that there was nitrogen literally everywhere. Like you can't, you know, most of the thing, breathe in, loads of nitrogen, breathe in, loads of nitrogen. You're so literally surrounded by this stuff.

14:37Michael Stevens:And we as a species found a way to bend the earth to our will and to say, give it up.

14:43Hannah Fry:Yeah. And not just we as a species, the villain slash hero of our story, fritz harber was the person who managed to how did he do it okay so so the the thing is right this you got this really strong chemical bond right this is 1900s incidentally he is german he's he's jewish actually as well he's a he's a german jew he's incredibly patriotic he sort of sees the the the the breaking of the nitrogen bond into making ammonia incidentally you you You break the nitrogen, you have N2, you break it and you swap in two hydrogen molecules instead to make NH2, which is ammonia.

15:20Michael Stevens:Oh, really? Okay, so hold on. How do you do this? Do you need a lot of energy? Oh, you need so much energy.

15:25Hannah Fry:But it's also, there's also this like strangeness to it because, I mean, you need to basically heat it up to like a thousand degrees to give you enough energy in order to be able to do it. but the problem is because once you break it once you heat it up to that that heat as soon then as you've got you've got nh2 and you've got another nh2 here it's being vibrated so violently that it

15:49Michael Stevens:just immediately splits back into n2 wow so you can get it but it's it's just not stable at all

15:54Hannah Fry:it just disappears in a second people who are real you know uh nursed who was the father of the third law of thermodynamics right they were like it's just not possible because it's an a thermic reaction you know it's just that you can't do it but what fritz harber realized was that um you could trick it you could trick these molecules because if instead of just heating it up you could also because ammonia with the h's instead of a nitrogen atom is smaller right then it's much more stable under high pressure oh so if you put it under under high pressure also So if you add in some metallic catalysts to just make things go a little bit faster, you actually only need to heat it up to about 500 degrees.

16:38Hannah Fry:Okay. And then if you take the ammonia away as it's created. It's stable. It's stable. You can just like leak off all of this ammonia. And then if you get the ammonia back down to a sensible temperature, then you're away. Like you're completely fine. And ammonia, what's the deal?

16:52Michael Stevens:It's good because it's got nitrogen in it that's more readily available to chemical processes.

16:57Hannah Fry:Yeah, exactly. It's this nitrogen that's got these two hydrogen atoms next to it. that bond is not as fussy about being broken. So you can spray that on the earth and then off you go. You're absolutely fine. I mean, people say that they can smell ammonia when they smell urine. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what you're smelling. Right. Okay. Okay. There was another German, Bosch, who worked out how to put this into an actual manufacturing process. Okay. You have to be really careful, by the way, because you've got like, it's like unbelievably high pressure and unbelievably high temperatures prone to exploding, which did happen in quite significant ways in the early days of this.

17:37Hannah Fry:I mean, one of the worst disasters in industrial history was in the Opao site. This is in 1921. This is eight years after the ammonia synthesis plant was first put into operation. Was this in Germany? Modern-day Germany. I guess Opao, I think so. I think it was, yeah. And they had, they were making fertilizer. This massive explosion in a silo ended up hurting about 2 ,000 people. Jeez. Killing 500 of them. Golly. Right. Loads of severe injuries. I mean, really, really, you have to be, it's really difficult to do this stably. I mean, we can't do it now. We know how to do it now. bosh the guy who like worked out how to make this process he was at the memorial service held at ludwingshafen so yes i think that was in germany sounds german sounds german doesn't it and he said the very material needed to provide nourishment and sustain millions in our fatherland and the very same that we have been producing and shipping for years has suddenly proven a grim enemy for reasons we do not yet comprehend and i think in that is this hint right of of both sides of the coin of this of this single scientific advancement because it is no exaggeration to say that the explosion of the population that we have seen in the 1900s is almost single-handedly down to the discovery by Franz Halbert.

19:10Without artificial fertilizer,

19:13Hannah Fry:we simply would not be able to sustain a population like this.

19:17Michael Stevens:That's right. And you know what? That quote from him is also foreshadowing every scientific innovation. You could say that same thing about nuclear energy, nuclear weapons. You could say the same thing about AI even. Totally. Like, well, it's going to really save us and it could also explode on us.

19:38Hannah Fry:Totally. Wow. So this is, I think, one of the reasons why Fritz Harper is like, I mean, genuinely responsible directly for the existence of billions of people.

19:49Michael Stevens:Of billions of people, which, yeah, I think, I'd also throw in Borlaug there too for Dorf wheat, I believe. But like these agricultural... Go on, what's that? I don't know exactly, but there's like a kind of, like they couldn't grow wheat in like India.

20:04Hannah Fry:Right.

20:04Michael Stevens:Because of some reason. And he genetically engineered wheat to grow that could thrive. It was much more resilient against pests and whatever. And so we were able to feed a lot more people. But you need fertilizer. So if you've just got the dwarf wheat, but no fertilizer, you have nothing. yeah so so yeah haber or how are you pronouncing harba harba uh and like whenever i do a german

20:30Hannah Fry:accent in my head or german word in my head i like to sort of imagine a quite camp german man okay i'm doing it you know so sort of like harba harba so harba really are suddenly a thousand

20:42Michael Stevens:times better really yeah it works he really changed the game in a way that is like so uniquely human, to just quickly make the world different. Rather than adapt to our environment, we're going to adapt the environment right now to our will. And because of that, we could have billions of more people. I mean, I've looked into this. I was wondering if maybe if we aren't so human centric, Colonel Sanders saved even more lives.

21:14Hannah Fry:In the sense that lots and lots of chickens exist as a result.

21:17Michael Stevens:So many more chickens have been born because of the appetite he encouraged in us for the animal. And it's a very weird ethical question. Like, well, you know, because there's like 30 billion chickens on this planet, more than there are people, which makes sense when you imagine how much of a chicken a person eats just in one week. Yeah. You know, anyway, those 30 billion chicken that are alive right now and there's going to be 30 billion more next year. Like they owe whatever life they get to enjoy, which hopefully is some of it, to the fact that we have such a hunger for their flesh.

21:52Hannah Fry:Is Colonel Sanders solely responsible for that? How much did he? I mean, sure, it is finger licking good. I agree. There's no doubt in my mind about that. But how much of our appetite for chicken is down to him?

22:07Michael Stevens:That's a very good question. And I'm going to say that it's like the majority of it because it's huge in Asia. Right. I mean, it's like Christmas tradition in China, I believe. Yeah. Or Japan. Anyway, I don't want to pin it all on him. There's a lot of other people who played a role in our desire for meat from animals. And so we breed a lot more of them. And suddenly they have a lot more. There's a lot more of them. Does that count as saving a life? But I think I think Hover did the same thing by not just saving lives, but also making lives possible in the first place. And one thing I struggled with is what's a word for that?

22:45Michael Stevens:You haven't saved someone from dying or from starving, but you have allowed someone's life to even begin. Yeah, right. It's like a pre-save. A pre-save.

22:57Hannah Fry:Yeah, it is. It is like a pre-save or not even. I don't know whether save. It's like you've created the conditions for their existence to be possible.

23:06Michael Stevens:Yeah. You know what? I'm going to look this up because I did find an answer. Or actually, my friend Anna helped me.

23:12Hannah Fry:While you're doing that, can I just point everyone to the fact that when you look at Colonel Sanders on a KFC sign, it sort of looks like he's wearing a necktie. But if you squint at it and look at it a different way, it looks like he's just got a massive head and a really tiny body.

23:23Michael Stevens:Yes. A little stick body. What I love is that my daughter noticed that before I told her. She saw Colonel Sanders' head with the little bow tie and she goes, why is his body so small? And I'm like, oh, thank you. That was a meme like 20 years ago. And you've just discovered it. She's re-memed. She's re-memed. A friend of mine, shout out to Anna Macaulay, she came up with a word for saving a life by making it possible by enabling its conception and birth. And it was prevenient saving, anticipatory, like we're getting everything ready for you to exist. You aren't already alive. You aren't about to die and we're going to cure you.

24:09Michael Stevens:You're just like possible because of this action. I'm saving your life. I'm prevening it. Prevening it. Yeah.

24:18Hannah Fry:I like that a lot. Yeah.

24:19Michael Stevens:And so and so Haber did a lot to save existing lives and prevene future lives. So almost the majority of humans alive today are here because of him.

24:31Hannah Fry:Yeah. So actually, there's some calculations that have been wrong, which is that 50 percent of the nitrogen molecules in your body right now came about as a direct result of someone doing the Haber-Bosch process. Oh my goodness. Talk about changing the world. Right. Which half do you want to give back? None of it. I like these nitrogen atoms I have at the moment. I like them all. Okay. So if that's the good side of what he did, that's his kind of heroics. Yeah. How does he undo this? How does he undo this? So, you know, provened billions of people responsible for the deaths of tens, maybe hundreds of millions.

25:09Hannah Fry:Okay. Well, before I get to that, let me just also paint a bit more of the story of what's going on here. The First World War, really, it was the first war that involved science and technology on this big scale, you know, where scientists hadn't really played a big role in war up until this point. And it turns out that Harbour was very excited about the fact that this exact same process of breaking this nitrogen bond could, with small modifications, fix nitrogen so you could make explosives.

25:42Michael Stevens:Ah.

25:42Hannah Fry:Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Nitrates is essentially what we're talking about here, which is absolutely essential for gunpowder. It's essential for shells. They are nitrogen compounds. Before the Harbour-Bosch process, Germany's supply of nitrates for munitions, they had to get these imports over from Chile, but they only had enough of these explosives to fight for another six months in the trenches of the First World War. and then when the British Navy blockaded Germany in 1914 to cut off those supplies the expectation was that Germany the war was going to have no more explosives they've got what are you going to do you can't fight a war when you don't have any explosives and so Harbour was like okay great let's just make loads of this stuff like let's get on it let's you know we let's make absolutely loads and loads and loads of it by the end of the war you know he had furnished Germany with half of their explosives came from, you know, chemistry, essentially.

26:40Hannah Fry:So, you know, without this, without this, Germany probably would have lost the war way, way, way quicker. Way sooner. Way quicker. And at least 7 million lives would have been saved, okay? But there's more, isn't there? There's more, because that's not even including all the people who were killed by the nitrates themselves. During World War I. During World War I, or afterwards. because nitrates still form an extremely important part of explosives. And it's really difficult to put a number on this, but the number of people who've been killed by explosives involving nitrates that directly link back to this kind of process is in the tens to hundreds of millions of people.

27:20Hannah Fry:Plus, then if you add on the fact that if Germany, if the First World War hadn't gone on as long, Germany hadn't dug in as deep, the Treaty of Versailles wouldn't have been as...

27:29Michael Stevens:as perceived as painful by them, leading to certain political decisions and so on.

27:35Hannah Fry:We're talking lots and lots of people. Now, OK, I think you could argue, right, in a certain sense, all of this is a little bit incidental, unintended consequences, sort of, you know, butterfly effect of the things that he was doing. So just so you don't feel too bad about Fritz I also want to tell you about the other chemistry work that he was doing at the time, because this is like where stuff gets proper nasty, because he is also essentially the father of chemical warfare. And we're going to be talking about that after the break.

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31:34Hannah Fry:He really went in hard. And because he was patriotic.

31:39Michael Stevens:This for him was a duty. It was good.

31:42Hannah Fry:Yeah, he could not understand how people didn't understand the value of Germany and the fatherland and so on. He wanted to do everything he possibly could in order to make sure that Germany won this war. I should also say, so essentially the chemical weapons that were used during the First World War were also as a direct result of Harper. He was the one who was pushing for all of this and doing the chemistry.

32:09Michael Stevens:What sorts of chemical weapons?

32:11Hannah Fry:We are talking about chlorine gas here, as well as nitrate as well, mustard gas. I mean, there's a few of them that he was directly responsible. I'll come to those in a second. But I just want to say before this, before this even happened, before the First World War even happened, chemical weapons were banned. There was a ban on chemical weapons before all of this. European power said they'd signed all these treaties that were against poisoning or poison weapons, projectiles whose sole purpose was to deliver asphyxiating.

32:38Michael Stevens:And deleterious. And deleterious gases, right? Yeah. Thank you. I'm up to date on my history of poisonous warfare.

32:47Hannah Fry:And I'm not up to date on my pronunciation of difficult words. Anyway, but he argued, he argued, actually, it was fine for Germany to do all of this because the treaty only banned artillery shells. And what did they use?

33:01Michael Stevens:And actually, if you just bury big canisters of chlorine gas in the ground near the trenches, well, you're not using an artillery shell then, are you?

33:12Hannah Fry:A little bit of a loophole. So this is what happened, right, in particular in Ypres in 1915. And it's by anybody who witnessed it or witnessed the aftermath of it, it really, it's kind of chilling the way that people lost their lives as a direct result of Harbour's chemistry. so under his direction they secretly buried 6 000 pressurized canisters of liquid chlorine along a one and a half mile stretch this is just like near the front line they waited for weeks and weeks weeks for the wind to be blowing in exactly the right direction and then the germans they when the wind shifted they uh opened fire on open fire or maybe they opened the valves actually whatever they they released this gas essentially so it would blow over the trenches where all of the the french and the allies um were and it was this like creeping green cloud i mean just just no way to escape it no one had any gas masks it was men were like blinded they were kind of choking they were coughing up blood they're coughing up green foam and just within a really short period of time across this entire four mile gap every living creature essentially drowned on dry land Jeez.

34:34Hannah Fry:Like, really, really horrific. Even Hitler wasn't interested in chemical warfare on the battlefield.

34:40Michael Stevens:Oh, so wow. Even Hitler is like, dude, you've gone too far. Jeez.

34:45Hannah Fry:You would think that seeing that level of devastation, I think it would, in most of us, if we were responsible for it, well, I can't imagine ever being in that position, but I think it would make us think twice about it. But Fritz Haber really doubled down. Well, yeah, and he thinks in his patriotism that his end is good, that any means are justified by the ends.

35:12Michael Stevens:But, Haber, Haber, look, all we have is means, dude. Yeah. And let's just do a little tally here. I know you're not even done.

35:23Hannah Fry:Wait, let me just tell you about his wife really quickly before we do this. Oh, OK. Because, you know, as soon as this happened, he heads back to Germany in celebration. And his wife, who was also a chemist, a really intellectually gifted chemist, she was like, this is despicable.

35:41Michael Stevens:She's reacting to what happened at Ibra. Yeah.

35:43Hannah Fry:She's like, this is the worst. This is just a perversion of the ideals of science. She really dislikes it. Harba's like, well, look, what you're saying amounts to treason. You're not. How can you possibly think that? And so while he celebrated his promotion to captain, she took her own life because she just couldn't handle the horror of what had happened. Jeez. Right. Even after his wife's death, he gets straight back at it. He's looking at mustard gas. He's looking at foskeen. He sets up this lab to try and work out cyanide-based pesticides, one of which ends up becoming Cyclone B. which I mean very tragically is then the poison that is used to murder six million Jews and Harba by the way is a German Jew yeah yeah I mean it's really extraordinary the level of well I don't even have a word for it well it's like

36:44Michael Stevens:humanity and inhumanity this guy okay I'm gonna I'm gonna be God now okay I'm gonna be doing the whole like let's add up your goods and bads. All right. So you start off strong. You develop a way of artificially making fertilizers that allows billions of people to experience consciousness and life on Earth. You save and prevene billions. Then you use that same technology to make explosives that will wind up killing, to date, 100 million people. And you introduce chemical weapons that prolong a war, that lead to a consequence which, if you look at it the right way, leads to certain political changes in Germany that lead to another world war.

37:38Michael Stevens:And you introduce the leader of Germany at that time to chemical weapons that at first he's not really into. And then suddenly he is and he starts to use one that you've created.

37:48Hannah Fry:So he didn't create it. His institution that he created and set up the research in, they created it.

37:54Michael Stevens:OK, so you get a half point for that one, a negative half point for that one. You wind up being somewhat responsible indirectly for the creation of the exact chemical used to genocide millions of people. So you've completely changed our relationship to ourselves, what it means to fight, to be in a war. What is the value of a human? You've given us tools to destroy life that go above and beyond what was even natural. Yeah. Just say that. Yeah.

38:26Hannah Fry:But I have a question, though, God, if I may.

38:30Michael Stevens:You have one question.

38:32Hannah Fry:Mr. God.

38:34Michael Stevens:Dr. God, actually. I didn't spend 10 years working on that thesis to be called Mr. God.

38:43Hannah Fry:I wonder whether there was an inevitability to some of this anyway.

38:46Michael Stevens:What do you mean?

38:47Hannah Fry:The splitting of nitrogen, which is the direct chemical process that made almost everything that you've described possible. I think it was an open door that he just happened to be the one that pushed that you know how long would it have been before somebody

39:04Michael Stevens:else managed to do it right so what bosh said about that door that had been opened to save so many lives has now become a a villain he was discussing a factory explosion right but he may as well have been discussing what else was down that hall once you split open the nitrogen the N2 molecule. You went in, you could make fertilizers and you can also make bombs, chemical weapons and change our whole paradigm of cruelty.

39:34Hannah Fry:Yeah. And I think I do. I don't know. I change my mind on this quite often. But I think how I feel about it today is that I think that there is an inevitability to scientific advancements being used for things that make us feel really uncomfortable. And I think that actually you sort of need really horrible things in order for the world to say, OK, no, absolutely not. Because after what happened at REAP, there are really in the Geneva Convention, there are really, really, really strong rules about using weapons like that and others on civilians in warfare full stop. I think sometimes you kind of need the bad for the good to come to the fore.

40:22Right.

40:23Michael Stevens:That from the trauma, growth can happen. And it's a terrible roller coaster ride. But the roller coaster that Haber built was the tallest. It was the tallest.

40:37Hannah Fry:It was the fastest. Yeah, I'm glad you didn't ruin that quite profound sentence by doing the German accent. I know, I have given it up. I should tell you about what happened at the end of his life, by the way. Okay, yeah. Look, I've left these little clues along the way. He's a German Jew, right? He renounced Judaism, but he is around. He was one of the most prominent figures in the First World War for Germany. and yet when the Nazis came in it didn't matter to them that he had renounced Judaism, it didn't matter to them any of what he had done for Germany up until that point. They didn't fire him immediately from his position but they demanded that he dismiss all of the Jewish scientists that were working underneath him and as a result he fled to England, he took a position at Cambridge University but his time in exile is with the British, right?

41:33Hannah Fry:You were also in the trenches and he was miserable, understandably so. All of the British scientists, you know, lots of them who had literally been in the trenches and certainly lost friends, you know, to his poison gas clouds at Veepra. They refused to work with him, refused to be around him. Ernest Rutherford, who was the father of nuclear physics, refused to shake his hand when they both won a Nobel Prize, the Nobel Prize ceremony. And he died in 1934. He was stateless, exiled, abandoned by the country. He had served with everything that he had, really. I don't feel too sad about that.

42:09Michael Stevens:No, it's hard to.

42:11Hannah Fry:I do think that there's a repeat of this kind of discussion, though, that is happening a bit now. Not to the extent of Harbour. As you say, his roller coaster was the tallest and the fastest. But this idea about the inevitability of scientific advancement and how technology and science is neither good nor evil. It's the way that you use it.

42:33Michael Stevens:Yeah, yeah. It's a thing. It's molecules.

42:37Hannah Fry:But then we weave them into a web that's either a ladder of support or we find ourselves trapped. Do you think there's an inevitability to it? No, I don't think there's an inevitability to what consequences, good and bad. Or just the advances. if something is possible, if it were possible to split the atom, if it were possible to build a nuclear bomb, if it were possible to create chlorine gas, that inevitably somebody would try it? Oh, yes.

43:07Michael Stevens:Yes, I think that scientific progress is inevitable, that we need to treat curiosity like gravity. Okay, it just is. And then what we need to do is both react to, but even better, prepare for the consequences. We certainly can't come in and say, You know, you've got to stop investigating this. You've got to stop being curious about this because of what could happen. But we do need to take on the responsibility and become even more curious to really think about what is it that we're doing? What will the future think about what we're doing?

43:43Hannah Fry:Yeah, I think that's a really cool way to think of it. The ultimate cure is more curiosity.

43:50Michael Stevens:Exactly. It's not stopping it. It's, oh, self-driving cars, how are they going to decide between hitting a grandma or a child? And it's like, well, you know, let's work on that. But let's not stop the development of what could really help so many people.

44:05Hannah Fry:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, we hope that we've helped you with this podcast. Yeah. It's sort of a bit of a depressing story. I sort of want to do a bit of a jolly, happy, clappy ending, but there isn't one.

44:16Michael Stevens:But I think you're right. I think sometimes the depression is inspirational. And so, yeah, stay curious, become more curious. And as always, you can reach out to us at the rest is science at goal hanger dot com. We'd love to hear from you.

44:33Hannah Fry:Yeah. Or leave us a comment wherever you are getting this podcast. And we'll see you next week.

44:37Michael Stevens:See you.

44:46Thank you.