332: Just the Two of Us - Helen's New Book!

0:00Enjoy the sunshine with sales on grill ready favorites from Whole Foods Market. Take cookouts to sizzling new heights with their marinated salmon and made in house marinated beef and chicken. Entertain with low price 365 brand chips and dips like hummus and guacamole. And sweeten every party with brown butter chocolate chip cookies. Remember to pack the cooler with probiotic sodas, sparkling waters and more. Summer savings await you at Whole Foods Market. Be fearless in the sun with Blue Lizard Australian Sunscreen. Whether you're diving into ocean waves or simply chasing your kids around the backyard, Blue Lizard has you covered so you can enjoy every moment worry-free.

0:39Designed for your whole family and free from fragrances, parabens, and phthalates. Blue Lizard is your go-to mineral sunscreen, trusted by dermatologists, pediatricians, and parents. Shop now on Amazon.com and be fearless in the sun with Blue Lizard Australian Sunscreen. All right. Okay. Hello and welcome to the Scully Mummies podcast. It's me, Ellie. I know, I was like, huh? Who? I was waiting for you to go, it's me, Helen Thorne, but I can't remember how we do it. 330 odd episodes. This is what happened to me the other day with Carrie Ed. Oh, yeah. I lost my wood. Oh, God. Power. This is where we're at now.

1:24We're 47 and 48. And here we are. Oh, my God. Who are we? What's your fucking name? What do you want? What have you done? You've done a book, have you? That's original. Well done. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here's a podcast about books. Yes. Blown your mind. Yes, just like you get on Radio 4, but much less professional. Anyway.

1:51Hello scumbags, this is the Scummy Mummies Podcast with your hosts Ellie Gibson and Helen Thorne.

2:04Hello and welcome to the Scummy Mummies Podcast. It's me Ellie Gibson. And it's me Helen Thorne. Who's our guest at Norman at this point again you see? You say how excited you are. Are you excited? I'm so excited Ellie. Why are you excited today? Well, I'm excited to be in your house. I'm excited to be alive. I don't know. It's always a bit cringy, isn't it? I'm reading a book. I'm going to put on a funny voice to, you know, cover up my sort of awkwardness about it. But yes, we're going to chat about my book today. I've banged on about it. I've alluded to it. I may have mentioned it a couple of times, but it's out on the 2nd of April, Ellie.

2:39Well, it's your fucking podcast. At least 50%. You can talk about it. Oh, that's good. As much as you like, I think. This is our own magazine. How contemporary. No, normally you're very excited about the guest, but you are the guest. I am. I know. Be my guest. Be my guest. Wow. Now we get a copyright strike. Yeah, well done. Isn't it? Be our guest anyway. Yeah, that was the flex. Right. That was the twist changing our to my. Yeah. Can you be one's own? Anyway, I feel like we've got off to a rocky start, but what the fuck is new? Welcome to your own podcast, Helen Thorne. Why don't you introduce yourself for the listener?

3:20Hi there. Hi. Oh, how do I introduce myself? So my name is Helen Thorne. I am 47. I am half of a mildly successful comedy duo. I think you're doing us down there. I would say moderately successful. Moderately. Moderately successful comedy duo. Yes. What have I done? Done some comedy, done some podcasting. And in the last couple of years, I've sat in my study banging out a lot of words, which has now become a book. Because I don't want to use the word manifest. It is now physically a book. No, and if you say manifest, I will physically be sick. So thank you. Thank you for writing back on that. You could just say written.

4:05I've written a book. I have written a book. Exactly right. I sat at my computer tapping away. Yes, so it is called How to Face Big Change and Come Back Stronger. So in a nutshell, it's about it's loosely my journey from broken mess to me being less of a mess. And then I interviewed about 50 women about how they got through dark, horrible times and then provided uplifting stories. so it's got a bit of light and shade and it's got some very clever women in it all clever women really it'd be terrible if some of the women it's got some very clever women some of the women are incredibly stupid but that's where the humour comes in yes, light and shade yes, just a lot of real dynamics yeah, 100 % clever but some are psychotherapists wow I like the but implying that do you mean but some are psychotherapists therefore they are hmm I bet Penguin PR are thrilled with this summation of my book so this is why you should have got a proper professional person to interview you about this book you see instead it's just me and you titting about it always comes down to just titting about I know, and I blither and I blather.

5:32So other people have read the book and said it's quite good. Listen, I have read the book. Oh, thank you. Please, say more things. Honestly, again, it would be a real twist if I said it at this point, and it's absolute dog shit. That would really blow the listener away, I feel. And it's tempting to do that, isn't it, for the drama that would ensue. That would be something different on a podcast with someone who's invited on. Now, I've read your book and it's absolute toss. oh no you've wasted your time yes wasted everybody's time but i have read your book and it is as i did expect it to be absolutely fantastic it is so brilliant helen it is just it i mean it's you it is just completely raw and authentic and honest and funny and uplifting and sad and it just is is brilliant like philippa perry obviously who is a psychotherapist and therefore more clever than me Yes, she is.

6:27She is quite a clever lady. She is extremely clever. She is and she has written on the cover. This brilliant book is like chatting to a good, wise friend. And that experience is one I've always dreamed of having. So what's that like? Yeah, what's that like? Reading this book is what I imagine that to be like. No, it is because it is like it is like talking to you in your sort of most vulnerable and weirdly, therefore, helpful state. Yes, I think when people are at their sort of bare bones and kind of vulnerable, that's the good, that's the nuggets. Like we always say, what's a nugget of wisdom?

7:06You know, what are the golden nuggets to come away? Also, this book, because I interviewed women about really tough, buggery, hard things, I learnt a lot. and I had to ask, I had to be brave and ask really tricky questions of them, which I may not have done before I'd gone through a hard thing. And I liked the conversations that came from it because a lot of the things that the women sort of not confessed to me but were brave and shared with me may not be questions you would feel comfortable asking maybe. Or what am I trying to say? that I learned so much from their vulnerability and them sharing their darkest times because I wanted to get both the, you know, the hard bits, but also what they learned from it, the light that came from it and how, you know, how they navigated it and how they live with their pain, live with their loss, live and how it's changed them.

8:10So, yeah, I want to say there's lots of uplifting bits but also not there's the the dark bits and the sound bits are actually um i think i learned the most from yes and i would say it's it by no means is it a depressing book no no no there are really incredibly moving bits in it um and there are some things that are quite you know hard to read in the moment but because you've you've structured it so brilliantly you you know that there's there is some light yes yes at the end of this tunnel and and um and that means it really it's it's a fantastic book tell us about some of the different women you interviewed so obviously as you say psychotherapists was it just just psychotherapists and less clever women or were there any any zookeepers perhaps or traffic wardens oh that's that's that's given me an idea Mr.

9:01Triss there. Honestly, yes. I guess I wanted to, because this book is written by a middle-aged woman and essentially for middle-aged women, but I hope, you know, people from different ages and even men might enjoy it. Even men. Never all stupid. We don't discriminate. Yeah. But we are in this period of our lives where shit is just being thrown at us all the time. you know whether it's people getting sick or people having big life upheavals you know we're facing you know losing our parents our hormones are all over the place we're um either raising teenagers or carers um and I wanted a kind of compendium or or a whole lot of women who are going through all the different things whether we're facing them or our friends are facing them or we might face them one day and just to sort of reassure people that there's a pathway through So I sort of tried to pick different women who could enlighten us about these different experiences.

10:03And so I guess one of the first people I interviewed, I walked around Brockwell Park with the lovely Laura Dockrell. And she had been through both postnatal psychosis and overcoming alcoholism, like becoming sober. And I found her to be incredible because she was she's one of the sunniest kind of uplifting people. and she's devoted her life now to helping people with mental health. And she learned so much. She said, oh, you know, no one in my family had ever gone through mental health and it changed my, you know, life. And she was, yeah, she was great. So I really enjoyed her part in the book.

10:44But I love in the last chapter, which is called A Bit of Peace and Quiet, she said, you know, she connects with people who've walked through the hot coals. You know, she's, and now she said she finds such joy in the everyday. Like she said, I get to take my little boy to school and I really appreciate that. So I think there's a kind of common thread through lots of the people I've interviewed is they do all sort of appreciate the small things. And like, I think Rosamund Dean, who went through breast cancer said, you know, it's all the cliches of like, you know, you appreciate life so more going through a big hard thing.

11:19But it's true. The cliches are true. So another person I really appreciated interviewing and learning from was Emma Campbell, who'd gone through breast cancer and as well as divorce. And she was brilliant. And there was a bit of dark humor to her. She said she had a therapist who kept saying, I can cope with everything that comes in my way. And she'd do these like sweeping hand gestures. And she said, I just wanted to punch her in the face because I didn't know I could cope. I didn't know it was going to get better. And even if you can cope some of the time, you can't always cope all of the time.

11:49Like that's not how that necessarily works. And she said, you know, and people would say to her, because Emma had gone through her first diagnosis, breast cancer diagnosis, when her triplets were six months old. And people kept saying, you're so brave and resilient. She thought, no, I'm not. I'm not fucking brave or resilient. I don't have a choice. I don't have a choice. So I think that I learned so much from her. And then who we've had on recently, Faye Reid. And I loved interviewing her because she'd gone through her mum dying through a really horrific menopause but also had faced infertility and not been able to conceive.

12:34And she did speak about this on the podcast recently. But how big a life change that was, especially when all her friends were having children and how that was a grief about not having a child. So I wanted different voices and also, you know, obviously my own experience of divorce and then grief because, you know, there's some things that we won't face, like some people won't go through addiction or health diagnosis and things like that. But we're all going to face grief at one point in our lives. And I devoted one chapter specifically to that because it can be the most, well, it is one of the most hardest things we'll ever go through.

13:16And sometimes we don't have the language or feel like we're saying the right things. And so I wanted to really unpick that. And I explain about losing my own mum and the lead up to that because I knew she was going to die. She was very poorly. And I did all this research and I kept listening to podcasts and reading books and all the things about saying you can never prepare for it. It is true. It is true. And I thought, oh, God, I just want to be really good at grief. I can if I can get through divorce, I can get through anything. But actually, you know, facing it was a whole new ballgame. And so, yeah, I think it's one of those experiences, I guess, I would imagine like like having a baby.

14:02You can read all the books while you're pregnant and everybody gives you advice whether you want it or not. You can laminate your birth plan. You can do all the things. But yeah, until you're in it and everyone's experience of grief is different. and there are no rules. And so, yeah, and so I'd interviewed Carrie Adloyde and Julia Samuel, who's like the guru grief. But also I wanted to interview someone who'd had a different experience of losing their mum. So I interviewed the lovely Penny Winsor and her mum had been unwell for a very long time and with mental health issues. And she talks about how when her mum died, yeah, she experienced a much different version of grief.

14:47It was a, you know, there was some peace around it as well. So, yeah, I wanted to have these different faces, you know, getting up close to these really powerful stories that women had. So, yes. Can we talk about the original title for the book and why you decided to change it? That is a very good question, Anna Gibson, because you've sat next to me many times but I was trying to think up a new title. Oh, we've workshopped it. We've brainstormed it. Oh, my God. We've chat GPT'd. Pulled names out of a hat. Oh, my God. Yes. God, it took me so long. So originally, I was going to call it Unbreakable and that was like the original pitch like three years ago because I was like, yeah, I'm this strong warrior.

15:32I'm, you know, I can do anything, you know, and it became apparent very soon into doing all the interviews that actually that's the complete opposite in that we are very breakable, that we are very broken. And sometimes breaking is kind of part of the process. And inevitable. And yes. To unbreakable suggests that it can be resisted or fought back against in some way, when actually, as you say, sometimes things happen to us in life that are just fucking terrible and there's nothing we can do about them or the effect on us. Yeah, exactly. And we can't avoid the storm. um we will get wet um so yeah and so then I had to kind of go back to the publisher and they're like no it's fine I was like no I think Unbreakable does does both the reader and the the women in the book a disservice I think we are we do break and um and I felt very broken I've felt broken twice um and and that's hard and confronting but also it was that point in which I started to rebuild and started to make better choices because in facing and being really brutally honest with myself, I could, yeah, start to rebuild a bit.

16:47And I think, and no one goes through life without making a bad choice or mistakes or whatever. I think we're all trying to do our best. But I think when your life is upended and nothing seems normal all, all, everything's, sorry, everything's absolutely higgledy-piggledy, then I think, you know, I think that's when we start to kind of, we explore, we try to navigate through it as best we can. And, you know, there will be many times we'll be, yeah, don't quite get it right. But I think it's an important process. I think so many people have said when they've not confronted or try to smother their pain or bigger feelings with other things.

17:37And, yeah, the pain will come out eventually. It always does. It always does. It does indeed. Yes. Yeah, so I guess the book is sort of in a loose sense of chronology of kind of going from the broken bit to facing pain and anger, which can be very good. I did I did I do there's some suggestions in the book about you know you know you can go out you can talk to friends or whatever I found the most uh cathartic thing during my divorce was just finding um things that belong to my husband and putting them in the bin just just um just throwing things out that belong to him that's a very good thing oh I can't I the most cathartic thing for me from your divorce was when um you lockdown was just sort of easing and we were allowed to sit in outside or something and you came around and sat in my garden um with a bottle of very expensive wine that he'd been saving on like a wednesday oh and we just we just drank it oh so glorious i still i still like the other day i found like a framed photo of us both like under a bed or something i was like that's going in the bin um yeah it was yeah and like you say there are so there are sort of practical suggestions in terms of things that work for you and you know and i know because i've again sat next to you in the van for many hours where you get these messages i've i've or sometimes they come into the scummy mummies inbox which i read as well yeah we get so many messages and i know you get more on your own personal account from women especially i'm going through divorce you've just found out their husband having an affair or whatever um saying I'm in so much pain you got through this you look like you're doing so well how do I how long does they say that how long does the pain last don't they yeah as if you can go well on the 28th of February 2027 I've got a spreadsheet I'll just put in your macros there and all you need to do is do 15 yoga sessions and eat some quinoa and go on hinge and you two will be fixed and saved and you know you know because you've lived it and I know because I've seen it that that isn't how that works yes and it's difficult isn't it I think yeah just to say to those people to give them the answers they want so am I right in thinking because I think you've said this to me before this book is a sort of answer to that it's like right okay I'm not a therapist and I'm not a wizard yeah here's everything I know from my personal experience fucking take it or leave it yeah exactly exactly and also I want to give as many different options It's a real pick and mix.

20:15And I think, you know, some people have found doing martial arts, other people, it was a community of cold water swimmers. Of course it was. I don't think you can write a book in 2026 without mentioning cold water swimming, Ellie. Not if you're a middle class woman, Helen. No, there we go. Check that box. But yeah, and I wanted to talk about addictions as well. And one of the most glorious people, and this is down to you, Ellie, is Stephanie Chivers. And she is an alcohol addiction coach. Is that what you... Yeah. And she had her own really horrific life-changing moment when she faced her own alcohol addiction.

21:00And she gives amazing advice and really enlightened me about the fact that women of our age are heavily marketed at for alcohol, that alcohol is the answer. it's it's always the answer sort of thing um and she gives really good advice but also and I wanted to talk about it and I haven't really spoken about it is about spending addiction and getting yourself into really very difficult financial you know um you know debt and things like that and the shame around that and and feeling bad and and and and so many people um So, yeah, I really enjoyed interviewing Yasmin Camilla about that and that, you know, especially when you become a single parent, you don't want things to change for your children.

21:47You're like, oh, well, I'll just keep spending. I'll make things better or, you know, this holiday or this thing will make us all happy. We'll feel that, you know, so like sex and alcohol and food, spending and having those sort of instant hits is, again, we're heavily marketed at, you know, in terms of the middle of the night, the many things I've bought as you know I threw out my spiralizer the other day I'm so proud well done thanks you really have I held it in my hand and I said thank you never mind facing big change you face the fact that you're never going to change and start spiralizing courgettes and you've come back and thrown that away stronger and I'm really proud of you I know that's big I mean to be honest with you reading about the spending thing was one of the hardest bits for me to read because i sort of saw it a bit yeah and obviously again we share a bank account yes yes i was like gosh there's a lot of money going out of this yeah but you know i was like well she's a single like you say yeah she's got to pay her own mortgage and she's got to pay all these fucking bills and what a nightmare yeah and you were buying a lot of stuff but again i was like you know we all buy stuff i do it as well yeah um to sort of you know it's like getting especially with Amazon.

23:01It's like getting a little present, Helen. It's like Christmas every fucking day, Ellie. Yes. Yeah. And then you forget and then it arrives like three days later and you go, oh, Merry Christmas to me. Oh, yeah. It turns out I'm not a size 10 and that dress does not fit and it's too short. Okay. Yeah, we've all done it. We've all done it. For me, it's quite often ingredients. So I'll be like, oh, I bought a kilo of puffed quinoa the other day. That's amazing. Watch me not use it, Ellie. I'll be like, I'm going to make, you know what, I should make a fucking paella. I should start making. I'll get some saffron.

23:36So, yes, again, we've all done it. And I knew you were sort of, and I could sort of see that, but I sort of didn't know how bad it was really. Yeah. And I thought I have to, if I, because I want the book to be as brutally honest as possible because I think that's what was, because I don't want anyone to feel that shame. And I felt real deep shame about that. that I think money stuff is really hard and and um it was really I think it was important to put it next to things like food and alcohol and sex because they are those instant hits that are so available to us you know everything I could do was in my phone when I was feeling vulnerable when I had a couple of glasses of wine when I you know was feeling like um oh I just need if if I just get two more hits on Tinder that will make me feel better or if I buy this dress or do this thing.

24:28Like it was this scrambling to suppress the pain. And it wasn't until like we were saying about being broken and going, fuck, you know, you've got to, you've got to really face this shit, Helen. And, you know, and that was again about getting myself back better financially, you know, removing the crutches bit by bit. But I, but I think hopefully it comes across in the book that all these people have gone through this you know we were just doing the best we can and it wasn't like oh i was in i was intent on destroying myself or doing myself harm no let's be yeah yeah let's be completely honest about this right the reason you did that stuff the reason we all do stuff like that is because this shit works it fucking works the reality is when you get those hits on tinder or you have that gas of wine you feel a bit better yeah the problem is of course as you and i realized that in the longer term, you are either doubling down on problems that exist or you're just kicking them down the road or often you're making them worse because you wake up the next day and you have the same problem, but now you are hungover and or poorer.

25:37And where are you going to put a spiraliser? Yes. And then your best friend is going to take the piss out of your fucking spiraliser for the next two and a half years until you eventually throw it in the bin. So you've just made it worse for yourself. So, you know, but it's not... You didn't do those things and people don't do those things and I don't do those things because you are in some way defective or broken or stupid or weak. It's because they are sometimes they are, as you say, they're marketed. They're designed to like like social media is designed to be sticky. Alcohol is marketed to us.

26:06They're designed to attract us. And the fact is they do have a short term beneficial effect. And it's just sometimes that is what you need maybe or what you think you need to get you through a really horrible thing. And sometimes it works in the short term. And the trick is, of course, to get out before you really fucking sink under it. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And also that there, whether it's a friend or a community or a helpline or there is help out there and what you're experiencing, you are you are never alone. And that's the other thing I wanted to write the book about is that when you face a lot of these big changes in life, you can instantly feel alone because suddenly who you were, your identity is shifted.

26:56And so you're like, my puzzle piece has changed shape. Where I felt like I fitted into the married category or this or whatever, you have to make a new space around yourself. And that can, yeah, that's really, sometimes that feels like almost a second bereavement or a second or an, or I like to call them like mini aftershocks after the big thing, because you're like, okay, who am I now? I can't go back. I can't go back to who I was. So where do I go from here? And so I think finding connections is a big theme through the book and finding people who've walked that path, people who understand you, people who can guide you through is really important.

27:43Having people you trust and all that sort of stuff and also a bit of self-compassion as well. Yeah, and I think that thing about community is, yeah, I mean, look, I know you take the piss out of me. I love a Facebook group I fucking love a Facebook group Helen I am here for it dude like you love your Facebook groups I love my my Instagram like running wankers like we've found out we've found a tribe and it's so important because I think when you don't have to explain yourself when you feel completely accepted for 100 % who you are that is the fucking golden bits of life all human life is there and I bloody love that and I love like and then like special interest as you know i'm in a we love center parks group ah i'm in a we love autumn group the autumn group i think is particularly joyful britney ferries i'm in a fan group for them unbelievably excellent last week when we went to scotland i became obsessed with oil rigs i fell down one of these rabbit holes i'm probably on the spectrum can't be bothered to get diagnosed i fell down an oil an oil rig thing decided i really wanted to live and work on an oil rig obviously i can't do that because it's ludicrous and i'd actually hate it in real life but i joined rig pigs which is for people who work on or just like oil rigs and now I feel like I'm in the oil rig community this is this is where the magic happens it's life-changing it is it is fine you try yeah and I think I think I think and find what works for you obviously not everybody joined joining Facebook reach is not the secret no no no and also it's a healing for everybody I keep saying quite repetitively in the book you know you don't have to do marathons you don't have to cold water plunge.

29:21You don't have to do anything, but this is what finding that thing will do for you and what that means. So I really delighted in that, you know, and it took me to people I wouldn't have maybe met in real life. And yeah, and I learned so much about it. business is booming but you know what really helped zero the accounting platform for small businesses i used to think spreadsheets were just part of it but real-time cash flow wow invoices that chase themselves even better books that automate that's a big one and i can keep track from my phone while i get the job done no spreadsheet in sight what a life do right by yourself and your business and search Xero for your free trial.

30:14Conditions apply. Enjoy the sunshine with sales on grill ready favorites from Whole Foods Market. Take cookouts to sizzling new heights with their marinated salmon and made in house marinated beef and chicken. Entertain with low price 365 brand chips and dips like hummus and guacamole and sweeten every party with brown butter chocolate chip cookies. Remember to pack the cooler with probiotic sodas, sparkling waters, and more. Summer savings await you at Whole Foods Market. Finding ways to be financially savvy is a smart move. And knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want, like that dream home or new ride, is a great feeling.

30:51That's why the State Farm Personal Price Plan can help you save when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling, just another way to save with the Personal Price Plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. availability amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state but also the bit yeah the bit that makes one of the bit that makes me laugh every time i read it in the book is by kat sims and our dear friend not so smug now on instagram yeah yeah yeah when she said there's a fine line to be really pleased with where your life is going and you've found the real meaning to being an insufferable cunt and I just thought that was so beautifully put because there are times where I so happy about you know feeling well you know and not with a bastard like the the weight of that that I didn't know I was carrying that I didn't know was in my fucking bones and it's still there like this there you know as anyone who's been in a toxic relationship will know that poison stays in your fucking system and occasionally it comes to play and that's really hard and especially if you're still co-parenting um again there's bits of about that in the book as well but um she's describing about you know she loves going barely she's sober now and all these great things um and and and it did remind me about when we were walking to everest together elliot and yeah we were walking up and then everyone maybe not being having the best as similar experience to me yes um that's true and you know i was happy as well i was actually having a lovely time but you were just in a phase of your life where you felt the need for every reason to tell everybody constantly that you were very happy yes yes yes and that was great and i was pleased for you and i never once when it was just me and you told you to stop doing that because i wasn't irritated by it because i had seen what you had been through and lived through and i was just like oh brilliant yeah but it was a bit different where we were on this trip with people who were really suffering and struggling five people had to get helicoptered they had to get helicoptered out because they were so poorly yes and you're just like i've got a boyfriend i'm so happy that is exactly what it was like and and it was a good learning it was a good learning point for me uh because i think it was good it was a good self-reflection and i was like yeah you if you have a thought in your head you don't have to yeah well i don't but i don't want it to sound like i'm worried that people will read that as like that was me raining on your parade oh no and i never you need to fucking calm down and be less happy which is is not what i was saying yeah at all um it was just i just could tell that you weren't really aware that some people in the group were finding that a bit tough because they were having a different experience yes it looked to them like sort of not really caring about yes yes them and how they were feeling yes i know you yes and i know that you're incredibly caring and it wasn't that it was just that you were focused on your own shit and that was great yeah and you just weren't aware yeah and i thought if it was me i would want someone to point that actually yeah yeah yeah so I thought as your best friend that is the right thing to do and it was and it was really I really appreciated it and also I think I think there's you know there are the points of learning and I'm like yeah and I I love running and I obviously talk about it a lot and all that sort of stuff but I yeah I do want to bring home like it's like it's not the only option and it's not the only thing um but yeah I think and and you've taught me this early I mean you taught me many many many things that you know the last chapter is a bit of peace and quiet and and i talk about how i thought success and happiness and all the good stuff came from being really busy getting all the medals doing all the things and having all the things right but and having lots of attention which is something both it's one of the reasons we're oh my god our friends and we do and we do what we do if let's not piss about if we didn't like attention we wouldn't be comedians I know, I know.

35:11And sometimes there's some shame around that, but that's the reality. Oh, no, it's an incredible dopamine hit. And it's, you know, when people say I've had a good time at the show or it's connected, that gives me the most pride and most joy. But, yeah, I think, yeah, and I wanted to explore that because I was like, why do I have to keep having another marathon date in the diary? Why do I have to keep trying to prove to everyone externally that I'm, you know i'm okay yes and and i i think that maybe was part of the the everest conversation was i was a bit worried about you at that point because although i could see it was genuine your happiness i i've always think that the the more someone constantly tells me they're happy the less i believe it yes yes yes who do you need why do you need to say this like who are you really trying to convince is it me or is it you yeah yeah but i could see that some people were like it is is helen all right not just on every but generally is helen okay because she keeps saying how happy and happy she is is anyone really that up all of the time yeah and and also i was i think a bit worried that there would be a a crash yeah actually because i'm not sure it's sustainable no no no and i think that again that's that's finding you know those extremes yeah but i wanted to put all these different stories in in the book and like and then she was all happy and it was all I wanted to say that I keep learning and it wasn't like, all right, well, then she got a boyfriend and then she ran some races and that fixed her.

36:42But I'm not fixed and I'm not, I haven't taken a magic pill and I keep learning. And, you know, I, I'm so much better than I was. But, you know, I, I, I'm now, I'm better at calming down. I'm better at resting. I am much more content and that was something that we talked to Philippa Perry about that she said actually I prefer to say content to happy and I asked lovely Julia Samuel about that that there is that difference and being content means that you can still allow or you can be able to sit with the sad and you're not sad avoidant and that's something I'm raw dogging a lot more these days like before when I got sad the first thing I would do would would be drink a bottle of wine or eat all my feelings and all that sort of stuff and that's something that I've been able to overcome and um you know move through so yeah and much better saying that I'm sad and much better in not warning people but you know uh you know in a couple of day's time it's my mum it's the anniversary of my mum dying and it's going to be on mother's day which is I know I know that it's going to be a big old sucker punch um and I'm like so you know I've told a couple of people about that and I just thought yeah and I'm much better at kind of just saying no I'm just a bit sad but I know I'm going to be better again and and yeah and and trusting that's that's okay and and and then I'm going to be sad again I think that's the other yeah yeah it's like we when even when we have happy times it's it's not about going and now i'm happy therefore i'm going to be happy forever yeah because everything's fine now because something else is going to happen your your mum is going to die or you know you're fucking a tree is going to fall on your house yes that was that was quite the ride yes your knee operation is going to go wrong yeah or you know just out of your control yes out of your control and yeah i just feel like i've just my toolbox has got a bit bigger yes and i'm very proud of you for that and i'm very proud of you because I think your default setting is sort of happy.

38:59You are a very positive person who leans towards you want to be happy and you work to be happy. And so when bad things happen, it felt like you almost felt a kind of shame around saying, I'm sad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you're like, no, I'm a happy person. Everybody thinks I'm a happy person. So I must be happy at all costs. Don't worry, at all times. I can find a positive out of this. I'm a single person now and now I'm going to really lean into being single and show... Jog on that what? Sorry, no. a whole bag of dick look at me i've got all these things on tinder i'm on all of the apps i'm doing and and it is it was a bit all or nothing all of the time which i think is what burnt me out um and and yeah and i'm very you know i do talk about falling in love and i do talk about how lots of other people how they navigate falling in love either after you know divorce or or big changes and how we're all just a bit scared and that's hard and also sometimes when you're used to being in a shit relationship when a good one comes along you can kind of go oh it's going to be shit anyway so I'll break it off or I'll find something and so I wanted to give some sort of reassurance for that as well because I think I know lots of women who've written to me who said oh I'll never do I'm not I'm never going to have a relationship again I'm just going to have you know a bit on the side i'll get some sex or whatever but they put up a pretty big wall because they don't want to be they don't want to be sad again um so and i i completely get that it's totally understandable and also maybe necessary and maybe temporary yeah like yeah who are we to say and and that's you shouldn't do that maybe you should do that maybe you just don't have to do that forever well maybe you do yeah okay i know like yeah that's what you should call the book do what you like that's why didn't we think of that we thought of so many different different things anyway look look i i i'm very i'm excited about how the book will you know be read and and how it's gone it was really it was really hard work to do but i'm really proud of it and it was a real a real privilege to write writing books turns out it's very fucking nightmare absolute nightmare really hard and there's you know of course I'm going round and round in circles going oh I should have done this or I shouldn't have done that but anyway there's some amazing amazing things in the book that I'm proud of and at the end of each chapter there's a little summary so you know if you want to just read those do that yeah just why not I tell you what I'll take a picture of each of those and just post them on our Instagram you don't have to buy the book yeah yeah save yourself the money yeah yeah brilliant oh no it's it is an incredible book and genuinely i would be saying that and i would have read it even if you weren't my friend oh that's very nice i think it's just so good and your voice comes through so strongly in it but it's so fascinating to hear all these other different perspectives from people with different experiences as well um and i just think it's a real it's just really useful and brilliant so well done thank man thank you well done and thank you listener for being here as well like you know having this podcast there's there's um i was introduced to lots of the women in this book through the podcast as well so that was you know brilliant and you know there's some great great um stories that have come from that as well i i especially love the one from stacy heel oh yes and she she went after her husband had died someone um didn't want to talk to her they couldn't know and then they just walked into a glass door it's a lovely story what am i way to end yes oh dear anyway that's that's a little insight for you by the way oh god here we go but although she's an incredibly positive sensitive and caring person helen finds nothing funnier oh yes than people physically hurting themselves or being in pain like falling falling falling down a flight of stairs tripping over a fence absolutely she's unwell on the floor um no it's just funny videos that might have a little boink yeah that is my number one thing oh well And thank you, Ellie Gibson.

43:14Oh, you're welcome. You've been in the fucking storm with me, and that's not an easy thing. And I think anyone who's supported anyone through a hard thing, there's one thing living it, but another thing, you know, it's like being in a car when someone's driving it. You're like, are they going to crash it? Where are we going? I think that can be really hard. Well, yes, but at the end of the day, you just sort of go, oh, well, I'm in the car. What are we going to do? Can't just jump out. I'd imagine stay in the car I'd imagine it's like well it's like being on an oil rig in the middle of a storm you just go well I'm at the moment I'm safe and dry so it's fine yeah we're on Everest now yeah now let's do the bit you love to do you like to I like to physically flick flick the pages flick the pages where can people buy your stuff your favourite question such a good question Ellie gives us they can buy it online or or at a bookshop or there is the audio book which you can listen to me read every single word of this book.

44:16Oh, is that what audiobooks are? That's good. Yeah, I didn't know that's how they work. That's good to know. Skip a few. Oh my God, that is a really hard thing to do. Anyway, so it's available in a myriad of formats and from a, I hope, more than one or two bookshops. So yeah, go on. If you want to, that'd be nice. Do what you like. Yeah, yeah. It's the new don't be sad. Do what you like. Exactly. buy don't buy that's fine that's your next book title don't be sad just do what you like there you go better I think you should write that book that sounds like you I can't be bothered it looks like too much hard work it really is it's done now though fucking hell well done thank you an amazing achievement so go and buy it everybody thanks gang yes alright and thank you so much for listening and yes for all your support for Helen and for me and for Ellie let's make this about me we've made it through the wilderness somehow we made it through yeah but neither of us are like a virgin so clearly not naive not remotely not at all not for about 30 years so okay now uh we won't do confessions because we've got to go and do a show yeah we must go uh but um yeah see you soon we're you know we're touring and stuff yes and helen's doing a book tour as well so if you go on our instagram you can come and see us i'm interviewing you in i think leeds and nottingham yes um there's um yeah a book tour and if you go to tix.to so t-i-x dot t-o forward slash Helen Thorne Snappy There's a book tour there Oh, we can put Ellie could put it in the show notes Or we can just Google Helen's book tour Yeah, it will be fine Yeah, you've got this Alright Sometimes Yes, bye Alright then Do what you like Okay, fine Bye Okay Bye Until next time Bye

46:09Oh, there's Rose. Keep talking to the mic. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, Rose. We'll be one second. We'll wrap it up. We'll wrap it up. That's fine. I told her to go wait in the van. We're just about to go on to a gig. You can have whatever you want, Rose. What do you need? A cup of tea. Can I make one? Yeah, do you know how to use the wanking tap? I will find out. Okay. You just wank it down, twist. Grab the shaft at the base, twist, twist, wank. Right, sorry. That's all right. You were saying. I was saying, yeah. Business is booming. But you know what really helped? Zero. The accounting platform for small businesses.

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