334: People pleasing, sex, and Giles Brandreth, with Bryony Gordon

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1:03Hello scumbags, this is the Scummy Mummies podcast with your hosts Ellie Gibson and Helen Thorne.

1:15Hello and welcome to the Scummy Mummies podcast. It's me, Helen Thorne. And it's me, Ellie Gibson. Ellie, I'm delighted. Are you? I'm thrilled. That makes a change. Excuse me, I haven't said it's me, Briony Gordon. No, we're coming to that. We're going to welcome you in. This is the build-up. Oh, I just was like, we don't have long. I just wanted to get to it. And I'm Bryony Gordon. I've written a book called People Pleaser. It's available now. It's all good bookshops and are bad ones too. Not that there are any bad ones. And you should go and buy it. And shall we go now? Yes, yes. There's a really nice place around the corner that sells duck.

1:47Duck? Yeah. What do you mean? Like ducks to like... Eat. Oh, oh. Yeah, it's like a Chinese restaurant. Yes. We were thinking we'd go there afterwards. That does sound nice. Yeah. All right. Okay, good. Well, let's fucking crack on then. Okay, good. Bryony Gordon's back on the podcast, everyone. She's one of our favourite people, slash guests, slash humans. And you've written a fucking excellent novel. And this is your first novel. You've written some Sunday Times bestselling nonfiction books. Yeah, we're going to hope that this is some Sunday Times bestselling fiction. I think it. I've got a good feeling about this one.

2:23This is really exciting. And it's called People Pleaser. Yeah. Let's get into it, Bryony. Okay. why did you write this book well come on well so how much money did you get so so i wrote this book because well i wanted to i people pleasing is at the root of all of my problems basically is it not at the root of all of our problems and some people aren't people pleasers but i am i am a people fucker offerer yeah you're there but it's the same side it's it's a different side of the same coin I think right so but anyway I all of my non-fiction books were about things I'd sort of like got through and you know triumphed over adversity like alcoholism and OCD and eating disorders and I was like but I can't write a book about how I've triumphed over people pleasing because it still absolutely paralyzes me and it was but I wanted I wanted to do I just wanted to explore it and I had this idea of a woman who wakes up one morning and she can't people please anymore she's like literally incapable something has overcome her so that she cannot she could only tell the truth and she can only put her needs first so it was a bit like does she wake up as a man?

3:39basically yes basically so it's like liar liar but instead of with an evil lawyer it's like a frazzled mum and so writing it I was like oh it's like I was like cosplaying like fantasy like it's like oh yeah I could do this you know in the morning you get in the shower and you think of all the resentments you have against the people that you've managed to create the day before like at work or whatever or you know just I don't know parenting and you're and And you start to have the conversation. You have really sassy, spunky arguments in your head while you're in the shower. And you think, I'm like, you're like, yeah.

4:22You're really giving it to them. Today's the day. I'm going to really stand up for myself. And you're like shiv from succession, right? And you're like, yeah. You're just like, go in there. And then when you get out of the shower and then you go out into the real world, you put some clothes on, hopefully. You go out there and you're more like Cousin Greg. you're just like I'm yeah sorry sorry about that you know that is basically and I wanted to have a go at being like the shifts I wanted to create a character who got to be the shift from succession person whilst still also kind of being cousin Greg so that's what people pleaser is about so it was just me trying to yeah like imagine what it would be like if I went out there and didn't disingenuously agree with what everyone says i don't i'm not that much i don't i can like i've just come from this morning and i've had a i had a very big disagreement with giles brandreth what's a start to the day did you tell him his jumper was shit no his jumper was not his shit it was a fantastic jumper but uh we disagreed on uh on on respond how one should respond to trolling and he's like well you should just you don't read it and i'm like oh no that's not that's like saying to someone in a short skirt you know like you shouldn't you should just ignore the sexual assault that you've just experienced it's a bit like this whole let them thing it's like yeah no no i don't think i don't believe in that it's like someone doing a shit on your doorstep and then everyone else going just step over it just don't worry about it's like no there's shit all over my front half yeah just just step around it like it's not that's not how that works fuck you jose bramford i've said it so you don't have to i'll never say but anyway uh did it end in fisticuffs yeah we did we got we started punching each other and allison and dermot had to break us up but the people pleaser in me right so here is the people pleaser in me is that i'm okay to have those conversations and i'm and i'm okay to kind of go out there but then what happens is afterwards i I will spend the rest of today agonising over whether, like, the producer liked what I was like.

6:32Or was I, did I garble my words? Did I say the, you know, was I not quite sparky enough? Was I not good enough? Was I not, you know, did I do my best? So I guess it's not necessarily, maybe it's not so much people-pleasing as perfectionism, you know? Yes. Yeah, I think it's a bit of both, though, because I think it's not a bad thing to want to be loved. It's not a bad thing to want to be accepted or do a good job. Nor is it inherently bad to want to please people. I think that makes you a kind, nice person if you want to make people happy. I mean, but the problem, I guess, is when it comes at the expense of your needs, right?

7:15And what you want. Or when you're so obsessed with it that you can't think of anything else. And has that been your experience? Yeah. Yeah. So quite sadly, it has. Actually, it really has. And what's really interesting, and I actually feel like I can kind of exhale a bit and say this to you on this podcast in a way perhaps I couldn't on others. But I feel it's really interesting that this week I'm promoting this. At the moment, this is the book that I have chosen to write. And this is the book that I'm putting out there. And it's almost like I feel I'm feeling the discomfort of people pleasing and how much it disrupts and distresses me, actually, really quite viscerally as I go and do the promotion.

8:10and I get my brain has gone into that sort of place of like you're going to disappoint the publishers because you're not going to sell enough or you're um you know I don't know you've written a piece on it and the piece isn't good enough and you know all of this stuff that is like it's really there's that voice is really there and it's really present and I'm really trying to sort of like sit with it and be and instead of trying to push it away and go I wish I didn't feel like that I wish I didn't I wish I didn't my brain didn't do that it's like well it does and maybe there's a reason it does and that's a sort of like childhood defense that you created that maybe doesn't serve you so well anymore right but I'm trying to just be like it's okay it's okay it's all gonna be okay even though i'm in like massive fear but it's because you deeply care about it and you deeply care about others and you want to do well and you want to you know do a good job for everyone because you're you're an incredibly kind person i'm also a woman i'm a woman as well and that's you're like i know that finally but like i do think we are bought up aren't we with the sort of program thing of be good look after people like you just said ellie you know being kind you know and i and i actually think it's it's it's really interesting because yes obviously it's good to be nice and to want to make other people happy but it's there's that thing about that getting through people pleasing when it takes over your life it's not about someone said emma reed turrell the psychotherapist she said to me it's not about uh caring less it's about caring better and it's about using that energy in a more constructive way that actually does in the long run make you more useful to people that you're around because like actually me getting obsessive over whether an editor likes the column i've written or whether um giles brander thinks i'm shit or whatever it doesn't really help what who does this help in the long run.

10:18Giles Brandreth. My God, it's to please him. Every day of my life. That would be lovely. I don't think it even does... I don't think it affects Giles in any way, shape, or form. We were having a chat about this the other day because I... About Giles Brandreth. Yes, yes. We can't talk to him. It's one of our brand pillars, actually. We were stranded on a desert island. It's one of our brand pillars. Giles Brandreth pillar. But we were talking about you know within our own friendship and I you know a bona fide people pleaser and have you know really tried to make steps towards moving slightly away from it and still that is part of my core but we were talking about this the other day you know when I when Ellie and I first met I would always say oh whatever you want to do you know okay yeah that's good and we'd always agree because obviously I like making other people happy but you've got quite an abusive relationship.

11:18Help me, Briony. Sounds a bit like your trauma bondage. I'd just say to Ellie, whatever you want to do, Ellie, and Ellie would go, okay. She'd ask for Angela. No, but yeah, that is it. It's true. And to be honest, it took me a few years to realise that's what Helen was doing because my other closest female friendship until I met Helen was with my friend Jessie, who I've known all my life. So we're closer to sisters almost because we've grown up. Yeah, yeah. And Jessie and I have quite a similar personality where we do like to please people. I'm not going to say we're never people pleasers and Jessie's nicer than me.

11:55But we have quite a straightforward relationship where we'll say I want to do this or I don't want to do that. So that was my sort of model for that's what people do. And then, yeah, when I met you, it would be like... And this could be like, do you want to do this gig or not? Or literally, we would go to a bar and I'd say, what do you want to drink? And she'd go, what are you having? Or I'll just have what you're having. And to the point where I started to notice that every time you would go, rather than say... Oh, no, I love vodka and coke. Yeah. Whereas you know me, I'd be like, I want a whispering angel, but I want one cube of ice and it's got to be filtered water and a silver straw.

12:31I'll try that. Oh, my God. But you see, I'm like, I mean, I was like that. I'm like very specific. I want what I want. Yeah. Yeah. You want it how you want it. See, that's good. But yeah, but then after a while, I realised that, yeah, you were just sort of, because then we would do the thing and I would see that you weren't really enjoying it or I would see that maybe you would have rather have done something else. Yes. And I was like, oh, right. And to be honest, that's quite a strange thing to live with sometimes when you have to guess, when you ask someone what they want and you have to guess whether their answer is authentic, that can be quite stressful.

13:03So I much prefer it that you're now able to go yes or no or what about this. And I think that is something I – so we were both learning from each other in that like, oh, I thought that everybody wanted me to do what they wanted. No. And that would make them 100 % happy. They actually want you to be genuine. Yes. And sometimes I want your opinion and your input. Sometimes if we have a decision to make, I don't know what the best decision is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I do, you know, I do value you as a clever person with insight. Otherwise, I wouldn't be in a fucking business with you, you know, let alone a friendship.

13:39So sometimes it feels like a lot of responsibility when you're the person who always has to make decisions. Yes, yes, yes. And I think that's good. And that's so what I would say, what I want to kind of say is that I think our relationship has got better because I started putting myself first, which is the opposite of what I was taught, that relationships would be good as a woman if you are slightly submissive or prioritised the other person's needs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I'm still on that trajectory of trying to be less of a people pleaser. And I remember writing my first book, I interviewed this great woman called Rebecca Cox and I talked to her about it and she said, you know, people pleasing is lying.

14:21Yeah, it is. But I also think, I think we have to be quite careful about like, because I think people pleasers hear that and then they go, oh my God, I'm a terrible person. Yeah. And then they take it on as a shame. Yes. And I think that actually we've got to be careful and go, yeah, it is. But it's also, it's dishonest. It is dishonest. It absolutely is. But it is not, you know, you're not. It's not malicious. There isn't malicious. It comes from a really wounded place. Yeah. So we hear a lot about trauma responses like fight, flight, freeze. But what we don't hear about so much is fawn, which is in your novel, Brian.

15:02Can I just say, ladies, that I have tried to make this as well as an entertaining read. I hope people are going to go away from it and go, God, but I also really learned something. Yeah. And that's what it absolutely is. And it's so funny and so well observed. and I know Olivia is a character, but I hear your warmth and funniness and self-deprecating humour and sharply observed look at society. I saw both of you in her, actually, whereas I am the alcoholic dad in the shed. I like the alcoholic dad. I want to have a cigarette with that dad. He's also quite harmless. yeah but like but almost like the most i wanted to like but kind of irritating in that way because it's like he doesn't realize how much harm he's done by sort of like just pootling along and minding his own business and it's like actually no sometimes you have to put other people's needs ahead of yeah yeah but sorry to go back to your series i love that bit of the book where you talk about that yes the fright the flight fright freeze whatever and and form what is the fawn response so the form response is where you see danger and you kind of instead of freezing or fleeing from it or getting punchy to spend it you go to it i really like you you know you try to kind of and flatter it and make it like you back basically so then it won't be danger anymore you know and i think that is very much how I was I tend to respond to actually assholes in my life instead of being like you're a dickhead fuck right off I'll be like I need to make this person like me and then they won't be an asshole and then there's that kind of failure to accept no they're just an asshole Briny yeah it's got nothing to do with you no and you can't you can't yeah like I was with that person for 22 years and i used to i i kind of say it's like pouring water into a sieve it just did not touch the size no matter how much love i yeah how much fawning and going we'll do therapy and we'll do this and that he was never going to change he was always a cunt and like it's like he was like fucking teflon yeah and you and there's a point we have to go actually this is and there's so much liberation in that of going oh like that's the freeing thing not realising that it's lying it's realising that it doesn't actually have any effect because it's nothing to do with you and you've got to find out a bit of energy you are a lovely great person and the other person just isn't yeah and that's that's it do you know what i mean so just carry on as normal let the person be an arsehole but don't take it personally no like i you know recently have had some dealings with someone who it's just quite difficult you know and i'm like oh maybe if i did this they'd be nicer to me or they do and i'm like well do i really even want like do i want that kind of person in my life you know and it's like no they're just they're going through their own shit do you know what i mean like you just get on doing your stuff let it all unfold as it's supposed to unfold yeah but don't don't try and change it by you know don't you don't have to like that's the thing i don't have to change difficult situations do you know what i mean like it is not on me i think that there is i remember always you know you hear that phrase delusions of grandeur you know which people i have the opposite which is like a delusion of inferiority do you know what I mean and I think that if I was just better and if I could just be if I could just be a grander person then everything would be okay but that is delusional like I just as that the person who thinks they're the big I am is not that powerful I'm not that powerful in reverse do you know what I mean like so it's just going hand breathe you know like the reality is that this morning I probably was just, I was absolutely fine.

19:15You know, there may have been bits where I shone and they thought that was really good, you know. But no one is probably sitting there with a, you know, a fine tooth comb going, she was crapping that bit. Must improve. And if they are, you've got to ask yourself, why do you want that kind of energy in your life? It's a waste. It is a waste. But yeah, and also we can't control the thoughts that come. we can't control but we can control how we respond to them so it's just like no but sometimes we can't even control how we respond to them yeah and actually i would argue because it's just like trigger i can't control anything i'm completely i i've got this conversation people are like i'm not even in control of really how i was react to things like i just have to but it's mostly better if i just sit quietly and don't say anything just crack on that's what i've learned like in sobriety that's what I've learnt they're like shut up Rian you don't just if in doubt if you don't know what to do do nothing yeah because I was going to say because I you know having gone through I'm about 80 % sober I'm like I very rarely drink I've just quit that's not sober do you know what the definition of sober is tell me Rian you have to be 100 % without alcohol you can't be a little bit pregnant otherwise it's not sober like seriously I'm a very light drinker Do you think if they said to people in rehab, just a little bit, you can just drink 20 % of the time.

20:46It's like when we went to that hotel last year and you said, and Steve and I ordered the filling dish and you said, could I have the vegetarian breakfast please, but with bacon and sausage. And the woman went, so like the breakfast. You two were unwell. You were laughing so hard. Sorry. Anyway, so sorry. Having gone through the process of getting sober. Yeah, yeah. All right. All right.

21:15I cut back. I cut back. Anyway. Anyway. But that is the equivalent of having to go to rehab and sign up to go to three or four Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. Oh, I want you to go. A week for the rest of your life. I'm going to go to an AA meeting and go, my name is Helen Thorne and I am 80 % sober. I'm 20 % an alcoholic. I'm 20 % proof. Where I was getting to... No, no, no, no. Really, what I should have said was, now that I'm less reliant on all the crutches as of food, cigarettes, booze, that I raw dog my emotions much more. Like before, I'd go, as soon as I was sad, I'd reach for a glass of wine.

22:00Now you go for a run. Yeah, now I go for a run. And a best squirt of HRT. Yes, yes, of up to four squirts. I've up to four squirts of HRT. It's a different... I'm going to sit with my legs crossed. Oh, God, do you feel reflexible? She's like a clap and butter. There she is. Clap and butter, there she is. Next novel. Such a sage. Name for a shit restaurant. Anyway, it was leading up to a question about how you now raw dog your emotions in that... Just hideous.

22:37if you don't have to raw dog your emotions can i can i just kindly recommend that you don't because that really is i'm not i'm listen i i'm really i'm in a position where i'm not allowed to uh to do anything other than raw dog my emotions yes yes yes that's my punishment for drinking my lifetime's allowance of alcohol by the age of 37 because the cost of drinking outweighed the benefits of the immediate immediate sort of soothing effect because it is excruciating having to raw dog your emotions it really is it and does it get easier i don't know if it does but it certainly like what what gets easier is the ability not to immediately reach for something to numb them out if that makes sense like you sit with them and you know i know that it's all gonna pass it you know and often it passes several times it passes and comes back several times in the same day yeah it's like a bad sandwich um repeats on you yeah where uh yeah and i think the more sober i've become and the more i've had to raw dog my emotions the more aware i've become of the those kind of ones that aren't necessarily very helpful not an emotion all emotions are helpful but the kind of perhaps the character uh the the character flaws that for want of a better phrase the character sort of characteristics i've developed um to try and kind of manage life and you're like oh this isn't like i don't know as i get older it's just people pleasing becomes it becomes more difficult to do doesn't it because like a physical pain in your like when I do it I'm like oh when I'm when I'm agreeing with someone who I fundamentally don't agree with or I'm not acting true I'm not acting in my best interests I'm like Briony why are you doing this there's a there's a little girl inside me going Briony Briony please come on let's stand up for ourselves here you know um and i've definitely have that when whenever i'd go into thorn mode you're like no come on briny and you can feel it it's like a like an energy we don't have to make this person like us we just need to be able to clearly communicate what our needs are and that person might probably can't meet them and that's okay but you need to say it because otherwise we get smaller and smaller.

25:31Yeah, and having that solid foundation in your own worth and your, you know, I think that's really important as well. It's like when you don't have that, like when I was in the pit of a really bad relationship, like my worth and my value had been eroded. So I was clinging on to the wrong things and looking to be filled from the wrong cups, so to speak. And so now that I'm free of that, then I've, yeah, just slowly built up my worth and value again. And that just, it does take time. It's not an easy thing because the negative voices are often the loudest. You can have like a hundred people say, you're doing great.

26:05You're doing great. And you have that one thing you're like, no, but you're shit. You're really shit. Why does it have a funny accent? Sorry, say that again. You're shit. You're really shit. It was a Britallian. It was sort of Welsh. Worried it was a little bit Jamaican, but let's hope not. That's my sig, soggy voice. But I want to tell a story about a non-people-pleasing incident I had. And this was, I think going through divorce and going through some shit things has given me less of a people-pleasing thing. And once I was doing a run in the Alps and I was by myself on the side of a mountain coming down.

26:48I'd run like 30k up a mountain. It was a big thing. And I was running down this mountain into Chamonix. and as I was running I went past a haughty Englishman who I think was wearing sort of red trousers and a gilet and I was feeling really empowered and he just said to me oh what are you back of the pack coming last because he'd obviously seen all these other really fast runners coming down the mountain and old Helen would have said oh yes of course I'm shit you know oh silly me but I just turned to her and I went how fucking dare you fuck you fuck off did you really yeah yeah And screamed in his face and then ran really fast to prove how fast I was.

27:28And then around the corner came a very well-dressed lady up the hill with blonde hair and two angelic blonde women, children, sorry. And the girl called, Daddy, why are you a fucker? And the wife was like, oh, for fuck's sake. She was so embarrassed. And I was like, oh, God, you know, I've disrupted it. But it was this energy that I was so angry. I'd done something for myself. I was by myself. I was kind of, yeah, by myself on a mountain and had this encounter with like a representation of everything that's bad. And yeah, I felt high off it. Well done. And then I went up to him and said, listen, Giles Brandreth, I don't care.

28:07I don't care how often you're on this morning with Brian and Gordon. Don't you speak to my friend like that. Can I say, Giles Brandreth would not say that. He would be cheering you on. Sweetie. He would, and he would, can I tell you actually, seriously. This is about to become a Giles Brandenburg themed podcast. Giles Brandenburg and me, the Briony Gordon story. No, because there are good people out there who do, I think it is important to remember that like not all men are arseholes. Is it? There are some, he, when I got, when I, when I had my rock bottom and I wrote about it in the newspaper I worked for at the time he sent me a card to say how uh how much he was impressed by my vulnerability and how wonderful getting sober had been for his sister who had also experienced alcoholism and I thought that was I didn't never met him before and I thought that was a very kind thing to do reaching out he didn't have to do that no so he would absolutely be there cheering on the meaning cheering you on yes and yeah so there we go so Bryony's new book A Journey of a Thousand Giles begins with a single step out next week sorry I derailed us I took us back into Brandreth town get us back on the road Thorn I just wanted to say the the joy of knowing me thank you yes the joy of reading this book uh please buy it available at all good and bad bookshops as you said the joy of brandreth um the joy of standing up for myself i still feel that like even telling that story it's a drug that i never knew i liked because yeah do you know what i mean before i would like to be the praise of being the good girl felt like the sweetest but this time around i was like no you don't have to shout and call people a cunt on the side of the mountain to get a sense of worth but having those incidences or or interventions in my life has transformed me and like I love that that thing you just said that standing up for myself drug I didn't know I liked I'm gonna use that in my next book there you go you've heard this first yeah yes but it is it is transformational yeah and it just it's that first step and then you can do would you know again and again and again say no and even like you know going into a relationship after being in a shit relationship I've had to learn and it's really hard to say this is what I like and or I'm gonna that's the wrong hole yes not today it's not your birthday um let me have a wash it away let me have a wash first um where was I say yeah about your relationship and yet again I ruined it with a stupid fucking joke no it's good jokes um going into a new relationship when the the canvas was blank but also having baggage going oh I still have in my nervous system that it will whatever I do or whatever I say will be met with criticism or just like and so having to relearn that and not and I'll say oh this is what I like or this is what I want to do and not trying to predict what the other person wants to make it easier is a really big old step that was something I really wanted to explore in this book because Olivia like I think a lot of us who came of age in the 90s and the noughties definitely that there was that whole thing of like deriving your pleasure from the pleasure you could give to the bloke that was in your bed you know and I don't I don't say that with any like you know like that That was just what I definitely felt.

31:57And part of her thing of only putting her needs first is that she texts her. One of the first things she does is text her husband and say, why the fuck don't you go down on me anymore? I know, I've highlighted that in the book. I was like, yes, Olivia, yes! Yeah, that's something I'm interested in as well. Sex. Yes, I'm giving it a go. Go on. We've got two kids, but we just cut a hole in a sheet. so apparently there's other ways to do it. I remember in the night, so we have a joke in our show about the magazines that we read growing up like Just 17 and Sugar and I do a joke about, you know, how they're all full of, you read them and either you were terrified you were pregnant or that you were going to die of toxic shock syndrome.

32:40Like those were the two. Toxic shock syndrome was like a big thing in the 90s. Right, yeah. And I'm not seeing together anymore. I'm not trying to make light of it. I'm sure it's a real serious thing and absolutely awful but also that was the, it feels like there was a misrepresentation of how often it happened and it just felt like one of them was going to get you in the end. You were either going to get pregnant or you're going to get top six. It did get all of us. Basically, like, don't let anything in there. No, no, no, no. But at the same time, there was this message, I suppose, came more from like things like More Magazine about when you were having sex, you had to look like you were having a fucking really good time all the time.

33:12There was this real pressure to be like, just, and I remember reading again and again, oh, the biggest turn on for men is that you're enjoying yourself and you're, and I think that was well meaning but I think it sort of created this idea that you had to be like woo yeah woo yeah the whole time where sometimes you were a bit like no that's the wrong hole you prick cut your fingernails you dick I'm bored now try it like this you dickhead and I just think down a bit across a bit yes I'll do it myself yeah brilliant thanks yeah and I think in my 20s I was a bit more like that kind of like oh I must look I must look and sound like this is the best thing that's ever happened to me when sometimes I'm just a bit pissed and actually I'd rather be watching America's Next Top Model if I'm completely honest does that sound familiar at all yeah I wanted to explore that because I think that's something and I also think it's something that we as women are a bit embarrassed about you know like because we live in this age now where where it you know you can go on a retreat to explore the female orgasm and so we are much more uh we do talk about female pleasure much more but it was like not not that long ago that that was absolutely not the case and so we're sort of like oh yes yes yes it's very important to yes yes yes sex is very important but we're like we're still a lot of us kind of carrying around that the more magazine position of the fortnight mentality towards sex which is that i need to be like arched back you know leg behind the ear yeah like it's and also you know i definitely don't think i think men a lot of the men i encountered uh well they didn't really care about female pleasure you know because they hadn't really been taught to care about it i remember who for it reading a magazine so if you if you don't feel sexy just think you look like el mcpherson

35:18and i remember having sex going i'm el mcpherson

35:27but i was not please tell me you said it out loud

35:33fuck me i'm elmett person oh my god i just like the the silliness of that that you can't you have to pretend to be someone else to be sexy and and then like you said it's okay not to feel feel it like i think being true to yourself is really good like obviously i feel more like jane mcdonald most days if i'm honest jane mcdonald is the goal i also think that you know i find that I don't know nowadays I'm like do I really want a shag like I just I want not always not you know a cuddle and an episode of the pit again pit and bread breath Brad breath I would like Noah Weil absolutely he's very nice he's always good yeah I think that's it and I think knowing knowing what we want knowing what we like what does Steve here already say I know what I like and I like what I know.

36:29Yes. Always the same meal deal. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so the book is called People Pleaser and you're both self-acknowledged people pleasers. Anyone who is sort of in it, because it sounds like you've talked to both of you about how sort of far you come. This is me sitting here as if I'm absolutely fine. I've never suffered. This is a talk. But you know what I mean? Yeah. You've both talked about how you've struggled with that and you've made progress. But for anyone listening to this who's like going, how do I start the progress? Like I'm in the shit. I am people pleasing all day long and I feel shit.

36:58And where do you begin? What has worked for you? My book. Oh, first of all, buy Bryony's book. Also my book. You would please both of them very much if you brought their books. Let me tell you. So that might really is not what I'm getting at. No, no, not at all. I think it's about. Enjoy the sunshine with sales on grill ready favorites from Whole Foods Market. Take cookouts to sizzling new heights with their marinated salmon and made-in-house marinated beef and chicken. Entertain with low-priced 365 brand chips and dips like hummus and guacamole. And sweeten every party with brown butter chocolate chip cookies.

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38:14I'm Kiana, and I leveled up my business with Shopify. Once I figured out that Shopify was a thing, I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business, but Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like I can't stop. I'm addicted. Start your free trial at Shopify.com. Baby steps. I don't think. I think the lovely Michelle Griffith Robinson the other day said, being brave doesn't mean doing big things. Like I think just having tiny things where you do, even practicing saying no.

39:00I remember when my therapist said just practice saying no every day, like say no 20 times a day just to see how it lands. I think it is like strengthening a new muscle, I've found. I also think where I think actually awareness is sort of 90 % of you that you are aware of it is really amazing. And actually, you don't don't necessarily you don't really have to do don't, you know, we put so much pressure on ourselves to be better. And that's part of the people pleasing thing, like embrace the fact that you are a bit of a people pleaser. embrace your imperfection because because that whole thing of I don't want to be a people pleaser is part of the people pleasing problem of perfectionism like some of us we just are and it's like acknowledging all of the parts of us and the fact that we aren't perfect perfectionism is a tool of the patriarchy to literally keep us small you know you keep us small to stop us taking up space in so many ways from diet through to you know to our behavior and it's like it's okay it's like we're all we're all sort of slightly flawed and fuck we're all fuckwits to a certain degree and so just allow it and if the worst thing about you is that you like to make other people happy right then I think you're doing pretty fucking well well I was I thinking well what is the opposite of a people pleaser is someone who is really selfish and just pleases themselves all the time and doesn't care about anyone else and doesn't you know and when I think about it which of those people would I rather be and which those people would I rather be friends with yeah I pick the people pleaser every time so maybe it isn't yeah maybe it's not necessarily a fundamental flaw that you must fix or change but an aspect of your personality I guess you're saying you need to be aware of and just yeah and just factor into your choices yeah and kindness doesn't look only one way kindness because i think sometimes we get confused between kindness and people pleasing as well like i think you know they are interlinked but like sometimes being kind like you said ellie is being honest and saying no i don't want to do that because then you both know where you are yeah i don't want to be your friend yeah i'm actually ending this it's been 13 years but it's time to thank you for your kindness be my truth kindly I'm kindly terminating this particular phrase I do what I what I do really struggle with is um those voices you're talking about so I'm trying to write a book like all middle-aged women and I I've been trying to write this novel and I've every day I sit down to write it and have these voices going you're not good at this you're you've got no business being a writer you can't write novel it's too hard did you have those when you're writing the novel or did you just we did you just have like it's my superpower writing I'm just gonna do it and crack on uh I think I always have that voice every time I sit down to write and I have to write you know I it's my job to write I write on a weekly basis I always have that voice yeah and I and I wonder whether sometimes that voice is what makes uh the writing good like you've got to have a certain amount of it to kind of to filter and yeah and to kind of keep yourself going you know and yeah and hold yourself to a certain amount to certain sort of standards I guess it's like that voice is always there and um you've just got to sort of again you've just got to kind of accept it i think and it's like don't like listen tune into some different voices you know put radio four on yeah like switch the switch my my i have um my sponsor in recovery she says to me like it's time to turn it's time to switch the radio station briny you know like you can have a bit of it you know and you sit and you go thank you thanks for that message and then you're like next you know and that makes it sound like it's really easy to do and it's not but i think again that's the kind of that's that that is actually the people pleasing voice perfectionism that's coming in there like well you can't do this because this isn't going to be a work of staggering you know whatever um and it's like okay well does it need to be yeah yeah but it'll just be a bit shit yeah because spoiler it is yeah well no no but like it's you gotta you gotta do it done my editor here she was like done is better than not you know like you've gotta you've just gotta start yeah you've got to start otherwise otherwise it's never otherwise no you will never be a writer yeah yeah yeah there's the no you're not right if you haven't fucking written anything literally that is literally how that works yeah um oh i know because you're sorry that was that was not very people-pleasery was it just get on with it it was the sage advice i'm looking for just get the fuck on with it ellie no because i i bitch i said blah blah blah i sat with brianie in January last year when I was like in the thick of trying to finish my fucking book and you were like it's going to be good and people want to hear your story Hill and don't doubt yourself and I was like thank you so you thank you Brian he finished my fucking book it was very good advice and I think you're right and there was just yeah before I even sat down I'm like oh no one's it and I was like no it's good and yeah the problem is and I have done this that voice is present in all of us right and I think the difference between uh success quote-unquote successful people um and and quote-unquote unsuccessful people is the ability to tune out of the voice and not give it that much because I have to tell you that I had a good three or four years around the pandemic time where I listened to that voice and I only listened to that voice and I was very depressed and my career sort of I wouldn't say floundered but it definitely didn't you know I didn't I didn't have any self-belief and I didn't do what I should have done and what I wanted to do and it's because I was paying too much attention to that voice and the voice comes in and the voice often comes in exactly when you're at the point of moving on to something better and greater and actually it was someone like where so I heard someone say the other day it's like when you hear that voice that's when you got to double down and go harder oh that's cool when you hear those voices from outside and when people start criticizing you and I think actually it was Kylie Jenner who said this but you know it's like when when people start criticising you and trolling you and telling you, you know, the voices are literally actually not just in your own head but outside, that's when you're actually on the right track because you're, you know, and you've just got to, instead of going, oh, no, you're right, I shouldn't be the person I am, you've got to go, okay, I've got to double down and go a bit harder.

46:33So if you're having sex with someone and they start saying, I'm Elle Macpherson, I'm Elle Macpherson, you've got to be even more Elmett Furson double down hang on a second oh wow well thank you Bryony for your that concludes our TED talk thank you I enjoyed it I feel I like that we ended that with like be more like Kylie Jenner yes thank you Elmett Furson that's exactly that's exactly where we thought we'd end up with empowering women amazing scenes now as is tradition we'd like to end the podcast with a scummy mummy confession. Do you have one, Helen? Oh, just this morning. Just this morning.

47:14I had a lovely, you know, a rare night where I had a night with my fella. We, you know, watched a couple of episodes of Married at First Sight Australia, had a lovely buffet from M &S. Had a lovely... Is that a euphemism? Yes, yes. And all of the things, chorizo elli and... Picky bits, if you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah. Couple of prawns. Now, woke up this morning, had lovely cuddles. Squid rings make a lovely cock ring. yes oh they do it's the pepper it's the pepper though I don't like anyway so we do door being lovely and I was getting ready to come here and everything I said and he's like oh you go off and have a shower so I thought oh good I've got a couple of minutes and I'd been because we'd been cutting a bed I'd really hung on to a wee and and he said oh I'll make the bed so I thought oh I've got enough time to like fucking hose one out in the shower and but the bath um was a bit jammed right and it wasn't draining properly so you hosed what you wee in the shower yeah don't we all oh shit oh no no why not you're not we in the shower oh my god it's so nice let me blow your mind fucking nice she's once weeding the bar not once i've done it many times it's lovely briny looks really upset now sorry carry on carry on right so you're sorry so you You were going to wee in the shower.

48:31And I did, right. And then, but the error was that it wasn't draining, obviously. Oh, my God. So there was just like a yellow puddle in the shower. And you're standing in it. You're ankle deep in your own piss. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I thought, oh, look, it'll drain soon. He's not going to come in. And then he came in going, hello, my love. Hello, hello. And I, anyway. So did he detect the urine? Well, I could smell it because there was the steam. Can I just ask you something? Can I just say something? Like, what? How are you saving... What? Like, just go to the loo. No, but we were cuddling and it was really nice.

49:04No, no, no, no, no. But hang on. I'm not saying don't cuddle. I'm saying before you get in the shower, there's presumably a loo right there. Just get in the loo. Have you never... Go to the loo and then get in the shower. In Helen's defence, have you never, like, not realised you needed a wee and then you get in the shower and then you're running water? No, never. I just go to the loo before I get in the shower. All the time. Every time I go to the shower. I go to the loo first. What is... I don't mean this in a confrontation way. I'm not Brandreth, but what... What is your issue, Bryony, with urinating in the shower?

49:40Well, that shower is where you wash and clean yourself. But you're washing off the girt. It goes down the plug hole. I just don't... You know, it all goes in the same pipe. No, I know, but I just don't want the urine to have been in the shower. Right. I did it directly above the plug hole, but I didn't realise the plug always mid-plot. I just don't like the idea of the urine mixing it. No. Listen, I don't think... I feel very empowered when I do it. I feel very... I like doing it. Okay, well, that's fine. So thank you for that confession. Don't yuck someone's yum. Because wearing in the bath, I have a problem with because then you are literally marinating and urea presumably is absorbed by your skin.

50:17I find that disgusting. Oh, don't tell me that. You know skin is a permeable membrane. You know that. Yeah, I'm sorry. This is where it ends. this is where it ends okay anyway he came in and he was all being all lovely but I just thought he can't stay too long he's either going to see it if he looks down or smell it and I said ah I've done a wee I've done a wee he's like oh no oh no oh no oh no what happened and I was like just get out he's actually from Newcastle no no no no no anyway that's what I was going to confess so you told him so he hadn't even noticed you'd done a piss no because he was looking in my eyes and probably looking at my beautiful breasts But you told him you'd pissed in the shower.

50:58Yes, because I was afraid that he would get a shock looking down or smelling it. So I wanted, I overreacted. I went, just go! And was he like, briny, horrified? He was a bit shocked because it had been such a lovely, lovely time before that. And then he went into the room going, oh no, oh no, we've crossed another line. Oh no. PJ. Can I see you mum? I'm blamed. I'm blamed. Anyway, we worked through it. We worked through it. Bryony, this is the quietest I've ever seen you. She's actually sort of like, you know, coiled. I actually need a wee right now. Yeah, and I'm like, don't do it in the shower in front of a Spanish man.

51:41Can you top that, Bryony, or do you just need to go away and think about that and maybe block us? I don't really have. Yeah, nothing can top that. My confession is that last weekend, I was awoken at two in the morning by some young neighbours who had decided at two in the morning to go outside into their garden and start doing karaoke in the garden. Oh, no, no, I'm not having that. to taylor swift they first they sang at romeo and juliet from by taylor swift then they started then now this is this was where things started to get a bit odd because i was kind of like okay taylor swift then they start doing karaoke to hamilton now like if you're going to choose hamilton like i would go for burn solidly straight out of the blocks burn right but they were going through i'm not gonna miss my shot you know what was it one shot you know like very like a very strange thing and it was at this juncture i'm afraid then they started to do wicked and i so i got up i got up i put my coat on i put my daughter's uggs on and i went across the road and i was across the road you could hear i went across the road and i knocked on the door and they answered it and i heard them inside they turned down the music and they said i think someone's coming to join us no no maybe it's taylor swift or el mcpherson he opened they opened the door and they were like hello and i went shut the fuck up

53:18and i was like i was in my pajamas and uh and anyway i went i went back to the and they did indeed shut the fuck up and the next morning i was i was saying to someone imagine imagine do i think i was talking to my sister i was like imagine choosing to do karaoke in the garden two in the morning and she just looked at me and was like briny you've changed that's exactly what you used to do all the fucking time yeah so then in the middle of the week uh so uh like a dpd guy came around he said would you mind taking a parcel and I said to him I don't know because I told them off the other day for doing karaoke and he was like they were singing Hamilton and he went I fucking hate Hamilton he said my kids listen to it all the time they've gone from Encanto it's like the Lin-Manuel Miranda journey we all go on from Encanto to Hamilton and he said no he said I'm going to leave this with you because I think this is something you need to work through with your neighbour and she's still not come to collect it wow wow can't you send your child over with it I feel like they can't be just put it in their garden yeah what is it do you know what it is open it I think that's against the law isn't it oh well what are they going to bring the fucking coppers coppers aren't even arresting burglars what are they going to do Really?

54:49Yes, exactly. Oh, my God. Well, there we go. I really need a wee now, so I need to go to the shower. Come round mine. What a journey. What a journey we've been on. So your book... I used to go to Babs. My book, People Pleaser, is out... I don't know, when's this coming out? On Tuesday. And your book is out on the Thursday. Yeah, so it's out in two days' time. So if you order it today, it'll get to you. Please do order it today. We should flog our own things for a minute. Oh, fuck. where are we going oh next we're going to Cambridge Ellie we're nearly sold out in Cambridge two nights which is great don't bother mentioning it then excuse me guys I'm actually going on tour too oh yes you are yes you're who's interviewing you're doing a thing with Catlin Moran too I am but that's sold out that one predictably is sold out that's brilliant but the rest of them have not but yes go and follow Bryony at Bryony Gordon and you'll see her tour things there'll be links to her book and yes and you're doing all sorts of exciting things listen to her podcast back to us Ellie we're on tour thank you yes we're going to Stratford-upon-Avon unbelievably for the literary festival I can't believe it no one knows why is what he would have wanted Shakespeare yes Stanley Halls in Norwood devises Tiverton Manchester Watford Eastleigh and Norwich yes that takes us into the summer oh and no Hartlepool Norwich Norwich Norwich Norwich no one Hartlepool can I just tell you no one in Norwich is going to come to see you and Olverston Alverston we're going to really we really need to sell some tickets for that and then Chester as well which will be brilliantly so that's excellent and I think that's it really oh you could buy a copy of my book which is called How to Face Big Change and Come Back Stronger, it's still in print so that would be great and yes, have a lovely day listener yes, thank you Bryony thank you, thank you for listening listener until next time, bye bye

56:50Let's do a podcast. All right. It doesn't have to be long. Let's just face it. It doesn't have to be long, but given the way we wang on, it is going to be. It is going to be long. I just started to stop apologising to our guests. We've been so looking forward to having you on the podcast and hearing your pals of Wilson, Bryony, don't speak for very long. You don't have to. To be honest, I've been wanging on all day and I'm happy. I'm happy we could just end it here. We've all been wanging on for 40 odd years, let's be honest. That's our job. Here's a tip for you. There's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer.

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