340: Debt, sex and shame with Andrea McLean

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0:42Hello, scumbags. This is the Scummy Mummies Podcast. with your hosts Ellie Gibson and Helen Thorne.

0:56Hello and welcome to the Scummy Mummies podcast. It's me, Helen Thorne. It is me, Ellie Gibson. Okay, very formal. I just tried to change it up a little bit and then I just make it weird. Come on, let's crack on. All right, good, good. Delighted, Ellie. We have a return guest. Yes. A wonderful, brilliant TV legend. She's an author, a presenter, a writer, just a lovely lady. You're putting off saying her name because even though you just asked her, you've already forgotten how to pronounce it. It's Andrea McLean. Yay!

1:32Say my name, say my name. Andrea McLean. That could have gone so many ways. She knew because she could see the inner workings of my brain. Yes, after 13 years, the skull is just transparent. I have, people have told me their names. And then I've said, that time when we have Ella Vidae, and she said, my name is Nicholas such and such. And I introduced him as Daniel. Yes. Why? Why, I don't know. I don't know, just that we looked like a Daniel. All that time we did three nights doing our show in Winchester and you called the tech guy whose name was Sam Tom for the whole run to the point where by the end you were just calling in Tom Sam.

2:10yes because i didn't know i didn't know his name but as usual yeah i think that's an actual thing yeah where you just brain fart when it comes to people oh yeah it's just like a sieve like the name came in but it just went straight out yeah yeah excellent exactly now as usual we've got sidetracked and we're several minutes into the podcast and we've just talked about ourselves and how stupid we are um but she knew she knew i knew i was in for yes fine good so as helen says I'm sure our lovely audience know who you are. But in a shocking twist, listeners, she's got a book out. Who would have thought it?

2:46No one that we have on the podcast never has a book out. You're the first one. Today. Today, today. Okay, okay. Well, thank you for having me to talk about my book. Oh, tell us all about it. Now, I'm like delighted that you've written this book and proud of you. I don't know if that's patronising or not, but it's a fucking triumph of a book. And I just think it's brilliant and it's going to help so many people. uh and anyway over to you and your wonderful book thank you so much um so my book is called shameless and what it is about is about messing up it's got it's about fucking up and it's about putting your hand up and saying I've got all of this wrong I feel terrible about myself how can I look at this slightly differently that makes it sound a lot more grown up than it actually was when I started it because when I actually started it it was a case of running around waving my arms in the air kind of like the start of four weddings and a funeral you know it's like fuck fuck fuck it was like that um I'd lost my business we'd lost our home I'd lost my health everything was literally falling apart and it was a case of I'm sick of hiding and hoping nobody finds out about this because I knew I'm in the public eye the the sidebar of shame would have a field day with me and then everybody would sort of point and uh say nasty things I thought I can't do this anymore actually I'd rather just go do you know what hands up yeah I made a mistake yeah um and that was to do with the business but then actually I as I started writing it I started unpacking oh my god there's so many things that actually I felt really ashamed about I've been married three times so let's talk about relationship failure and the sort of guilt and shame you feel about that let's look at parenting mistakes um let's actually unpack how my parents parented and that's how you learn and actually the whole book grew into this whole other thing that i didn't necessarily mean it to become but actually i'm really pleased with it because the me that started it who was spinning actually i feel like i said a lot of actually sir i feel like i've put a load of stuff to rest you know it was really cathartic it was good and now I just feel like do you know what there's all my stuff make of it what you will um now we're good yeah so can we talk about what what happened because last time we had you on the podcast I think you were launching yeah that business yeah so what do you mind telling the story of what happened sure so it was this girls on fire and uh the business was it was a personal growth business was what was it was eventually becoming I think around about the last time I was on but it started as a as a blog it became like an online magazine then uh Nick and I set up it was a if you imagine not on the high street for female entrepreneurs because I wanted to use I wanted to use my power as a force for good if you like because I had this blog and I was getting hundreds and hundreds of thousands of views from all around the world I thought I don't want to just do that thing where you get a brand to support it because I was paying for it all myself how about if I use this pull and instead let female entrepreneurs and the the only caveat was has to be female founded and the product has to help women in some way and therefore they can sell their produce as a little sidey bit um and that will generate income and we'll all be really happy that took ages to set up cost a lot of money just as we got it up and running covid happened oh and literally 50 of the businesses went bust also overnight we then lost half of ours um so then it was a case of right how can we pivot a little bit and the sort of messages that we were getting from not just the business room but the women through the the magazine side of things the online magazine was they just needed help calming down, understanding how to stay strong.

6:53It's so easy to forget what the pandemic was like. It was really, really scary. So I thought, right, I can do this. I've already written books talking about human behavior and psychology and this kind of thing. Nick and I retrained as life coaches. Just for me, it was to make sure we're saying the right stuff. I wanted to sort of do it properly. We decided we'd launch a membership. That was when I decided to leave Loose Women. So I literally walked away from this job I'd had for 13 years. That was all going fine. And then the crack started to happen when we decided to build an app. And we were doing this through a company in San Francisco.

7:34We were basically like, do you know Monsters, Inc.? You know the cartoon Monsters, Inc.? I was like that octopus that's the receptionist. I was literally like doing all the things and spinning all the plates and Nick was also spinning all the plates and which is fine until you get sick. And then I got COVID once and I got it twice and then I got it three times. And on the third time, I was so ill and I couldn't work anymore, which I've worked since I was 15 in Freeman Hardy and Willis shoe shop. And I've always I've always supported myself. I've always been the breadwinner. Not working was horrific because everything was sort of stopped piling up with me and literally the buck stopped with me.

8:22And we kept going sort of limping along for a while and then eventually I just had to go, I can't, I just can't. So we had to pull the plug. We had a few months in the tank to keep going and then it ran out. Wow. Like it does if you get made redundant, if you lose your job, just like so many people in the same sort of space, you know, an entrepreneurial space. If you start a business and eventually remortgage your house and put your savings into it. Yeah. And then you don't take into account being ill. It just went. And it went from, it will be fine. You know, we're both capable people. We'll find something.

8:59And there was nothing. It was tumbleweed. and trying to sort of keep going through that made me even more ill, as you can imagine. And it was sort of in the throes of all of that that we were running around shouting fuck that we thought, okay, I'm just going to write about this because I have nothing to be ashamed of. It's not like I did anything wrong. I might have made mistakes and, yes, I had a choice of A or B. Okay, I chose B and maybe I should have chosen A. I didn't do anything wrong. And you couldn't predict the future, like you say. Yeah, who can predict COVID? Yeah. Who can predict getting ill?

9:40So, yeah, that was a sort of the starting point for the book. And also, being brutally honest, it was a case of what can I sell to make money? We were selling furniture. We were selling clothes to pay for Tesco's. it was it was not a position I ever thought I would be in it was case right what am I good at what can I sell right I'm really good at writing let me see if I can put a book pitch together and the pitch was like a punch in the face it was such a bang and uh I waited two weeks to hear back from I literally googled literary agents and applied if you like and emailed them and said can I come in for a chat?

10:26And I went in for a chat and told them what I was thinking of. And you were pitching this book about having lost everything. Was that the original idea? Yeah. Yeah. And waited very stressfully for about two weeks and then literally got an email and it just said, this is fucking brilliant. And I thought, I like it. And then that was it. I started writing. So what flipped the switch? Obviously there is, I love that you're really honest about the fact there was a monetary motivation that's that's part of it um but in terms of emotionally what flipped the switch from you thinking all this stuff has happened and i'm really ashamed and embarrassed and like you say i'm in the public eye and what are the press going to say and what the public going to think to what got you over the line to i don't it can't just be money i don't give a fuck i'm just gonna put it all out there i'm gonna hang my dirty laundry on the line if you like well the way i saw it was it wasn't so much dirty laundry actually it was kind of the other way around it was clean because because of being in the public eye i knew that even like a whisper people wouldn't would start writing their own stuff and it would be any old nonsense and i thought i'd actually rather it came straight from me so here you go this is the this is what's happened this is the whole truth of it all you can you can judge me based on fact but Please don't judge me based on made up stuff in your own head because a bit of a gossip over the garden gate.

11:54You know, if you don't like me after what you've heard, and that's the truth. But I'm absolutely fine with that. But please don't go around making stuff up. And I knew it wouldn't be long before, you know, there's only so long before somebody says something. To be fair, in terms of, you know, somebody saying something. none of my friends knew they knew things were tough they knew I'd been ill um my family knew but other than that we didn't tell anybody so the first reason we didn't tell anyone was we thought it will come good and then we can all laugh about it afterwards about oh my god you've no idea how close to oblivion we actually were oh do you remember that time wow and then that didn't happen and then it was a case of I don't want them to say how are you and then I lie I don't want to say actually it's terrible things are awful so I'd rather just say I'm busy and not meet you for coffee and then on the other side people going out you know do you want to come out for dinner do you want to we couldn't afford to go out for dinner we could afford to have people you come around to our house we'll you know do all that we can have a pot noodle yeah They can have a partner who can share it.

13:07But, yeah, we couldn't do stuff like that. And there's an embarrassment of that. And I just thought I'm tired of being embarrassed. And the way I see it is if you are really my friend, you won't care. And if you do care, you're not really my friend. So it's a win-win. Yeah. And I think financial shame is such a huge thing because we live so publicly. Yeah. Yeah, and a lot of people, I know people talk about, especially during the school holidays, like, you know, people like we'll see other people having these extravagant holidays or what they're doing and we're in a big sort of comparison culture and, you know, thinking, oh, but I can't afford that.

13:49I want, you know, that can really play on people. Yeah. And saying I can't afford to do that feels shameful as well. Like I'm not as successful as, you know, it does come down to a lot of the time about how we define success or you know being good at something or those sort of labels we put on ourselves yeah and I think yeah financial shame is is something that yeah a lot of people won't tell anybody about and I totally get it because that was that was me at the beginning and you know we haven't had a big family holiday for years but that's okay yeah you know And we were honest. We kept a lot from the kids at first because you don't worry them.

14:33And then obviously it becomes really apparent because you're moving house and I'm ill and all this sort of stuff. And we thought, you know, the kids were older. They were my youngest at the time was doing her O levels. My son was off at uni. So we're four between us. I'm trying to think of who was living with us at that point. It was lots of ins and outs. And we just thought, actually, we're going to be honest, not in a scaremongery way, but just our life has changed. So there's going to be cutbacks. So when we don't live that life anymore. Yeah. But I tell you what, you can say to kids all you like, you know, if you want something, you're going to have to work for it.

15:22That's what my parents did to me, hence the Freeman Harding Willie job. I went to the Freeman Harding Willie. That was a whole different career. That's Freeman Harding Willie's job. They shortened it to free, Willie, and I didn't even get a part. But, you know, hence working from 15, because that's, you know, how my parents brought me up. And actually, you know, you can say that to kids when things are good. They don't get it at all. Actually, when it's, I'm not joking about this. If you really do want something, I can't get that for you. and you can come downstairs and show me your phone and go everybody else at school's got one and the answer's the same I don't care I can't give it to you but find a way yeah to to work hard and favorite yourself and actually not that I would have wished any of this on us I really think it was the making of the kids because they did they went out and got blooming jobs and sold stuff on vintage and there was a reframing that happened to the whole family one i think they took the lead from us once the initial shock of it all we got very practical very quickly and then it just became well what's the big deal yeah it's just a chair that will you know we need to go to tesco's that's a really nice chair i think we'll make some money with that yeah it's going yeah that's it that's no it's no biggie no and actually it's completely shifted everything so now i i don't feel it you know i i don't feel ashamed to to say to people oh i'd love to go to dinner but we can't we we call it that's not a priority right now rather than we can't afford it but it's because our priorities are where we're not where we were but going to dinner is not a priority but Come round to ours, for sure.

17:13We'll make you a nice dinner, but we can't go to fancy restaurants and things. Yeah. And that's, it's cool. Yeah. And it's connection. It's what you want. You want connection with your friends. It's like when people say they've been through cancer or they've gone through addiction and they can't go out and drink anymore. And they're like, but I'd love to go for a walk with you. Yes. And the people who love you will show up and they'll go, I just want to spend time with you. It doesn't matter if we have four bottles of champagne. I want time. Yeah. And it's very like in your book, you know, when people say, oh, how can I help?

17:43Actually, don't say, how can I help? Say something practical like, do you know what? Let me get your Tesco delivery. Yeah. Let me give me a month. I'll do four weeks of Tesco delivery. Just tell me what you want. And I'm beautiful. Something like that is actually far more helpful than and actually is lovely to get a bunch of flowers. But it would be more useful for you to get my Tesco delivery. Yeah. And I think asking for help is really hard for people. I think that's a bit of a... And I didn't. Yeah. I'm saying all this now. I didn't. Yeah. At all. Until people found out and then I received it, but I didn't ask for it.

18:21Was that because of shame? Was that what was blocking that? It was not so much shame with my friends. It was more I didn't want them to feel sorry for me. I just... Yeah. I think they, because my friends know I've already been through some stuff and I just didn't want them to think, oh, bloody hell, not again. What now? You know, and so it was easier just to not talk about it. I'm very much a not talk about it till afterwards. And then I'll kind of go, that was, we've actually been through quite the bumpy ride. I don't really like to go on about it at the time. I'm going to go on about it now.

18:59I'm just done. But sometimes you're just trying to keep the car on the road as well. Right. sometimes all of your energy and focus is just going into just not going off the cliff yeah so you're not turning around to say to the person in the back by the way the car's on fire and there's no wheels and there's no petrol but it's all fine yeah yeah yeah don't worry don't worry yes yes i'm okay i've got good good good good the book has helped me really get purpose actually yeah that's what I was going to say because I was going to ask you about that because I think like shifting that purpose and knowing it's going to help others as well yeah because I think you know there's that great saying about shame grows in silence yes 100 % and I think as soon as you hit someone and they go me too yes and not feeling alone and not feeling like you're the because some people when you're in that spiral you feel like you're the worst person who's made the worst choices yeah and that you can't get out and you keep it to yourself because you're ashamed and And what that, you know, again, I talk about this at the end of the book where the thing about shame is it keeps you alone.

20:04It keeps you silent because you don't tell anyone. And then if you are driving that car that's on fire, the wheels have fallen off or whatever it is, when you finally get to your destination and you've made it through the other side, there is no one there to clap and cheer because you haven't told anybody what you've been going through. So for me, my moment like that was ringing up the last debt collector. And actually, it was my credit card. I've done the debt collecting agencies. It was my credit card company. And because we had to put everything on credit cards because we'd completely run out of everything else, ringing her up and saying, this is, I can make my final payment.

20:48and uh she i could hear her kind of tippity tapping on her computer and she went oh oh my i can see you've really been through a tough time well first i need to ask you do you have enough to pay your bills can you pay your heating all of this i said yes yes i can um i'm able to make this payment and she honestly she burst into tears then i burst into tears and she just said this must be such a moment for you I'm so so pleased for you and I just thought this woman who doesn't know me from Adam um and I know I'm just one of so many calls that she's had that day to feel some it felt like somebody waiting on the shore when you finally kind of get on the shore and she just went well done and I said thank you so much thank you so much and sort of hung up and And it was just, oh, I want to have that woman on the podcast.

21:41The stories she must have heard, the things she must know. And how amazing to work for this company and have that sort of compassionate. Can I name them? It was American Express. Right. Well, there you go. Really good. There you are. If you're in terrible debt, get an American Express card. And this advice. A really nice lady. Yeah. She was very kind. Oh, that's amazing. Oh, I'm so glad. and I was going to ask about, you know, what's lovely about your book is you've got the sort of helpful tips at the end and the summaries. Oh, give us some helpful tips. Yes, because I thought there'll be people listening to this right now who've got a secret.

22:19They've got a shame thing. Yeah. A thing they feel ashamed about. What were your sort of advice for those first, I guess, steps out of shame or trying to get that courage to do it? I mean, the book, it started off talking about the absolute dumpster on fire that was my life at the time. And then ended up, I broadened it out across so many things that not only I've experienced shame in, but, you know, different things that have maybe gone wrong and now reflecting on it. So obviously it would depend on what aspects people would need navigating through. but I think the sort of truism across all of it is to don't do what I did and actually say something and if it's debt don't just put the envelopes in a drawer and hope that it'll all go away and it'll come I had tried that it doesn't work it doesn't work no it doesn't work the HMRC the debt collectors they like to know where you are and I knew I would know the number and just put the phone or the text message i'd just ignore yeah yeah yeah pick it up and it's horrible the first time i actually spoke to a debt collector on the phone i cried because he was so mean and so unmoved and i felt i felt hideous i felt so stupid and just so ridiculous but then we sat down and we wrote a list of everyone that we needed to speak to and by the time i'd spoken to like the fifth person i realize actually no now i'm being practical and they're not taking this personally because i'm one of dozens of people actually this is good and then i the powerlessness sort of went so even though it sucked it was really useful so the the first thing i would say is to tell someone either ring the gas the electricity whoever or if it's something they're experiencing at home because obviously there's relationship shame and that can be because of terrible behavior that goes on behind closed doors say something you know don't stay quiet because you're you're embarrassed because you made a big fuss about getting married and posted all your pictures online and now everyone might laugh at you and go well I didn't last very long or you know your friends tried to warn you and you didn't listen to them and you're scared they're going to say I told you so speak up anyway because it is far, far better to take action and do something than it is to sit in it just because you're too scared of what other people might think.

24:55And I think really, you know, joking aside with the book, I just felt there's so many things we don't talk about, whether it is, you know, I'm likely calling it relationship issues, but really what I mean is domestic abuse. And whether it's that, whether it's financial difficulties, whether it's challenging parenting that either you've experienced store you know you've not done the best for your own children sitting at home and at home and hoping no one find out is not the answer say something yeah I think that's true and and yeah and just it doesn't go away in silence and it grows and it grows and it grows and you want to have like you said some control as soon as you then you can start taking control of it because otherwise it controls you everyone knows those that feeling of not being able to sleep and it just always be there it's always there that kind of so i was so stressed at night that i not only could i not sleep but i clenched my teeth so hard so i had braces so i wear a retainer at night i bit through my retainer and cracked my own tooth oh that happened to you yeah that happened last year how much you were clenching your teeth with stress yeah i cracked my two front teeth because my uh i I had a very stressful situation last year with my ex-husband and my face blew up.

26:14It got infected. And then I had to have two root canals. I had to have a root canal. Oh my, oh my God. This is awareness. We have to tell people that. It manifests in, you know, and I had, I had my eye infection the first time around. But I think, I think that's it. And, and people don't realize how much stress, even though it feels like an emotional, mental thing, it will, it will develop into something physical and you will get sick. you'll carry that yeah I think so and I think that's a big part of why yes clearly I got you know COVID very badly um but I think my autoimmune system was so smashed to pieces you know I was showing all the symptoms of lupus with uh when I'd COVID the final time I had sores on the inside of my nose that wouldn't go away my hair was falling out I had arthritis pain my palms and my hands were permanently bright red every joint in my body heard i had fibromyalgia it was and this was for months and months and months and so i went you know and got all the tests done and they said no you're showing all the symptoms but your bloods have come back and you're normal as it were you're within the parameters this is there it is gosh um but then obviously after that i then ended up with pneumonia and kidney failure and sepsis and was hospitalized nearly died which was not fun however it prompted possibly the biggest shake up because it was like right come on this is it now this is ridiculous come on now come on I'm not having pneumonia I shall just decide listen here you sepsis you go away come on kidneys come on you over there give me your kidneys what did you do there how did you get over that how did you be not dead how did you be not dead I got rushed into hospital by ambulance which is not as much fun as it sounds you know as a kid you think I wonder what that's like I can tell you it's not fun I've only done it once when I was having a baby it wasn't it's not as much fun as you think yeah so there was that So, yeah, lots and lots and lots of antibiotics and scans and aftercare and all that sort of stuff.

28:39And then I was finally given the all clear about four months later, something like that. But to be honest, and again, hair falling out because of that. That's one of the reasons why my hair is short now, because I used to have hair extensions. Because one, being on telly, you kind of have to look super glam. And I've always had, you know, I've also had my dad's hair. He wants it back. So I've always had very fine hair. so I used to put hair exceptions in. Yes, you had very full locks. Who knew? Yeah, well, they were technically mine because I paid for them, but they weren't. It was not my hair.

29:10But my hair was falling out so much you could really see the join and I just thought, again, it was a kind of shedding. It was a case of, right, this is who I really am. I'm going to cut all my hair off and just give it a chance to get healthy and grow. It's looking lustrous by the way. I know, I know. Thank you. He's admiring your lustrous Bob when you walked in. All my own. Yes. All my own. Is your kid's birthday coming up? Don't stress the prep. The Party Shop at Michael's is your one-stop shop for everything from bluey to rodeo. Transform your space into a birthday wonderland with dream-worthy tablescapes and decor starting at 99 cents.

29:52Plus, get free helium inflation on select balloon styles. Whether you're crafting a one-of-a-kind bash or grabbing the essentials, Michaels has everything to make their big day legendary. Shop now and order ahead for delivery or in-store pickup. Michaels, everything to celebrate anything. On hair. Now, Andrew, we really want to talk to you about menopause because you've talked about it a bit. I have, yeah. I mean, now that I'm in the trenches, like I've, you know, I'm on up to four squirts of each at the end of the day. Are you? I'm up for squirtage. I think you should be on five. Yeah. the mood swings, Andrea.

30:33I've got difficult. I've got very hot. I've got very dry. I've got very moody. Can't have alcohol. Otherwise, I go into the pits of despair. All the things. Can I just interrupt? Are you just taking estrogen gel or taking anything else? I've got a coil with a low dose of progesterone. I might need to up that. Okay. And someone said testosterone is a wild ride as well. Well, I tried it and it gave me spots and a beard. which was not, I already had a bit of a beard because we all do by this age. Yes, yes, it's the Hulk Hogan handlebar moustache I really enjoy. Yeah, but I was getting spots on my chest, my back and all that, I just thought, oh no, I can't, I just can't.

31:15But for some people testosterone works really, really well. So give it a try. We had a friend who said put a little bit of testosterone gel and then about an hour later you have a very good wank. Apparently it's very good for your libido. Okay, but what if in an hour's time is not convenient? True. I think it's more of a timing issue. Yeah, but you're Sainsbury's. But, yeah, I think... Because I've got it... How did we get here? That's the first thing that came into my mind. I might be busy in an hour. I've got my hands full. My hands full. Can't draw the curtains. Not be conducive. No. Depends how long you're at it, really.

31:54You can have a little quick fire. That's true. Yes, yes, yes. It depends how long you need. Now, obviously, I'm very comfortable talking about sex. You're literally double down. I'm literally double down. I've actually coiled up. You are hunched over. Yes, because I wanted to talk to you about your sex chapter, Andrea. It was excellent. Thank you. I wanted to talk to you. You've got so people. Hello, Andrea. Please, can you tell me about your sex chapter in your book, please, Andrea? Thank you. Just give me a paper bag. I'm fine. what bit would you like to talk about well especially about now covering her eyes it's okay it's a safe space it's a safe space you know i think it's really good that you talked about in the book about finding your voice i'm glad you said voice

32:47i'm getting sweaty myself now this is going could you talk about what you wrote i can't even remember now what did i write it's very good about like you know about you know in in when you're going through relationships and and you might be have different needs or desires and and finding your voice to say this is what i would like or okay or and not feeling shame around where you're at sexually whether that's in a heightened state or a not heightened state so and you give good advice in the book about that well i just i mean i think because i've experienced all of those sort of states either heightened or flattened yeah and you know i've been in obviously i've by the time it gets my age you know i've not been around the block a lot but i've been around a little bit yes so i've had different experiences of where you know i've been up for swinging from the chandeliers and the other person completely has not yeah and then i've also been in the situation where i feel like i've been especially over the past couple of years I've been run over and seriously you're what that's not a priority right now that's not a priority right now no I'm afraid I'm afraid it's healed over yeah yeah the shop the shop has been boarded up yes my vagina is on furlough yes nobody's a furlough year yes yes um so I just thought it was really important to just really underline the fact that none of those situations are shameful yes because i've been made to feel shame for both and you know that's the kind of you know like doz girl what that's just not on yeah and actually all of it is completely normal and the key thing is about being able to communicate and i know it sounds so dull and boring you know i know there's a bit in the book where i talked about you know if things are changing and not really in a way that you like, communication is key especially if the relationship is flat lined, there's a hundred things come to mind and they're all cringey and you just know it's going to be cringey and it's going to be hideous but actually in the same way that if you have a teenage son and you need to talk to him about something, go for a walk or walk the dog or drive the car so you're having a sideways conversation and you're not looking at each other so it doesn't feel quite so confrontational and then you can say do you know what, I'm actually feeling a bit a bit stressed about what we're going through and how it's making me feel and I feel like maybe you're adding to that stress a little bit and I'd really appreciate if maybe not or can is there something maybe I could do differently because I feel like maybe I'm a bit more up for it than you are is everything okay if depending on you know yeah where you're at really it's it is just about talking and again i put in the book that nick and i we know all the things we both we trained as coaches he is a coach it's what he does he helps particularly men he helps them through really difficult periods in their life and he'll come home and go his wife's going through the menopause he doesn't understand what's happening so i had to you know clear up with him even though he knows i've told him to shut up and stop breathing yeah basically yeah he's wrong he's just 100 % wrong Accept it.

36:00Yeah, all the time. But even knowing all of that, when it actually comes down to it, it's you. All of it goes out the window. But also, we all have our go-to if we feel attacked. Even if that's a huge exaggeration of what's actually happening. So some people might react and push back and be like that. And other people will go in the way. You know what kind you are because we're all different. and I think even just allowing for that that even in the first place because again Nick and I had it and I wanted to put it in the book to show we both reacted terribly because his was and mine was which sounds very strange if she's just listening to that She sort of did a mollusky Yeah so one was shouting and one was retreating Oh yeah one goes big one goes small Yeah understanding that we both have our bad reactions to it And then there's the initial one That's the initial one and then it will That's the hot air and then it will settle.

36:57But really it is about just talking about it. Even if it feels horrible or write a letter. Write it down and put it in an envelope and go, I'm going for a walk. Walk out the door. You know, we text each other sometimes. I'm feeling a bit like this. Sometimes it's easier to get that little bit of distance. But I don't think I've settled into what do I actually like and who am I as far as this goes. until my 40s. Which is such a shame. It was a lot of wasted time, but it's all right. Got there in the end. It's okay. It's good times in your 40s. 40s are brilliant for that. I think there's that. Ellie and I have been talking about this, about being in this sandwich generation now because we're in GCSEs, A-levels, stress, stress, stress, stress, and then our parents are aging, so that's stress, stress, stress, and just general perimenopause.

37:52Everything is on fire. Everything, yeah. at a time when the world feels like it's on fire it's a lot sometimes yeah yeah exactly you know and my thing with that is gosh unplug sometimes i've i have to put my phone down just walk away go for a normal walk you know normal walk what's that like not list always listening to something or distracting yourself just go for a go for a walk and just forget about stuff for a little bit yeah because where do you find i mean obviously walking is good where do you find your happiness though and you're calm well after the whole pneumonia sepsis incident um we thought fuck it again and uh nick said why don't we just sell the rest of everything we have and move to spain wow and that was because amy my youngest had just got to uni in spain so there wasn't that guilt of leaving her behind she was we were actually following her which terrified her because she was like oh my god we're not all going to live together are we no we're not going to go to the same place we now started looking it went from oh my gosh we can't bear anyone to find out what we're going through so we were looking around how's the beady eyes going how much do you think we get for that how much don't we get for that i mean obviously we didn't sell everything because um a very nice friend has a very big shed and she's keeping some plastic clip boxes of things like you know the stuff the kids made for you at school and stuff like that that you you'd never want to get rid of because you have to take them out of you now and again and look at them yeah um so yeah stuff like that and bits and bobs she's got that in her shed and everything else we just we literally would say if we don't need it right now and it won't fit in the car it goes and what was so liberating about that was my attachment to things was now i think in the book i called it it's not zero it's 0.5 because all i wanted to take was my christmas decorations because I really like my Christmas decorations.

39:55I don't know, but they're a thing of beautiful joy. Yeah, and you connect them over the years. Memories. Every time I put them up, they mean something. So I've got my Christmas decorations. But what it meant was, you know, Facebook Marketplace and Vinted and all those things. When people came round, sometimes I'd kind of just keep out the way and Nick would sort of deal with it. But sometimes if I could hear it was like a young couple that were just moving in together or something, I'd appear like a witch. and be like, oh, do you need anything else? And I was giving stuff away. I was a terrible seller because if I just fell in love with them and thought, oh, bless them, well, they could do with this and they could do with that.

40:33Have a house plant. You know, they'd leave twice as much stuff as they came in for. And it made me so happy to think our stuff has now got a whole new lease of life and is off making somebody else's home happy. So where is the car now then, Andrea? So we're away from the cliff face and we're driving through Spain. Yes. Yeah, we literally loaded the car up and took the dog and we drove to Spain. Great. And we decided on Spain because we thought it's sunny. You can get digital nomad visa there. And Nick knew one person through playing golf that lived in this part of Spain. So we thought, well, we'd give it a go.

41:13And we literally thought, if we don't like it, we'll just pack the car up again and we'll move. Amazing. And we ended up liking it. So we just stayed. We haven't gone anywhere else. We just stayed where we are. Oh, and so now you've got your book out, Shameless. Yeah. And what else? What's next? We've been away, it's probably about 10 months now. My job has been to get well. Rather than feeling guilty for not setting an alarm, going for a walk on the beach, doing really easy things just to sort of build my strength up. I feel like I've done that now. So now I'm well. when I hit the end on Shameless there were so many bits I couldn't put in but I thought I still there's still a lot of story there that hasn't quite been told so I started writing my first fiction book amazing but I've filtered the way through now and I'm enjoying it oh good it's good amazing so watch this space watch this space wonderful first up buy your book please do buy this book please buy the book I need the money yes well um now it's time for scummy mummy confessions oh my god i've got nothing left i've literally told you everything you have confessed a lot my confession is that i i played a joke on my elderly father and it's very funny helen was sort of there for this so uh we went to the unbelievably we did a gig at the stratford upon avon literary festival and my husband pete um drove us he rodeed for us and my dad um stayed here with my kids so he was here overnight and then in the morning um I rang my dad you know on the way back saying oh we're in the van dad we're coming home now and it oh yeah by the way um do you do you want me to get you some more smoked salmon there was half the packet of smoked salmon in the fridge and it did say best before March the 16th uh very mindless we're at the 12th of may it did say best before march of 16 but i was hungry so i just ate it with some scrambled eggs do you um do you want me to buy you some more smoked salmon which again i thought it's a mad thing i've never in my life said to my father oh you've eaten that thing out of my fridge while you were giving me free child care yes never and he's eaten many things straight to the tesco for you i've never once complained or asked him to replace anything that he's eaten i've said to him help yourself dad anyway now the reason that smoked salmon was i'm quite good with best before dates but the reason it said 16th march it was because i'd taken out of the freezer okay just the day before but he didn't know that okay so i said to him wait dad you you ate the smoked salmon he was like yeah and i was like but 16th of march he went wow i thought it'd be all right and i said no no dad pete ate some of that the other day and he had the shits and he was really poorly and dad went oh no but i've got my cricket door and we were like yeah no and helen and pete's driving the van buckled over with laughter i was holding it in i was very quietly was he holding it in did he get psychosomatic poo so there we all were absolutely just and i was just like oh yeah dad no you're gonna be really ill and he went oh no oh oh it'll be all right and then i can't remember what i said that it triggered him and he realized it was a gag oh yeah something something happened and then he was like oh you're winding me up yeah you better go to hospital or something and he went oh you buggers you're having me on i was like yes of course we are dad but let the record show you ate some smoked salmon that was you thought to be almost two months out of date and you were okay with that and you were totally fine with that as like, he saw the date, he saw the date and there was plenty of other food in the fridge.

44:54It's full of ham and eggs and cheese, like there was so many other, so much other food available. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm really impressed that you thought that quickly to play a joke on him because my brain doesn't work like that. Well, I've spent 48 years trying to wind up that man, so. Well done. Helen Thorne, do you have a confession? So I recently went in a flotation tank. Have you done that? No, I'm really scared that I'd get really claustrophobic and start screaming and banging on it Oh, I because I made a decision this year that I wanted to be more brave and lean into things that I wouldn't normally do so I was like, why not?

45:32why not? And so, yeah you have this lid and you can close it so you're basically in sort of a coffin with water in it and then you can turn the like a warm puddle and then you put it out and then you can turn the light off and then you've got a noodle that you kind of you know the poor noodle and i was like right i'm gonna relax now yes it's warm okay and it's very salty and they gave you and ellie kindly told me they had like um sachets of vaseline which you meant to put on your bits otherwise you get stingy is that right so i did that i fast up my cracks because i made that mistake when i did a flotation tank 30 years ago i did not put vaseline on my cracks no one told me you're up to and so i just lay in some salty water listening to whale music thing feeling like my privates were on fire yeah so i did not want you to have that experience thorn so thoughtful so yeah i yeah i was well well um well oiled well well lubed yes so i lubed that but next to next to the vaseline they had earplugs right and i was like what's that for i don't know what would it be what would it be putting in your ears anyway turns out still got the water in my ears two weeks later every time I sort of open my jaw it kind of goes so I think um I would I I was brave and also stupid no you weren't stupid you gave it a go but I tell you what that was like a public service announcement I'm never going to one of them if you get I haven't sold a well bits and water in your ears yeah yeah I sometimes I get confused with am I liking it or am I convincing myself that I'm liking it.

47:08Okay. I'm trying to think of a confession, but I'm pretty sure I've covered everything. Well, look. I lost my home and everything I own. That is quite a good one to be fair. Hola, España. Oh, yeah. Oh, well, yes. If you want to hear Andrea's full confession, buy 90 ,000 words of it, is it? Buy your book. I can't remember how many thousand words. Is there an audio book? Yes, and it's me reading it. Oh, that's a big old thing, isn't it? Yeah. Well done, you. It is. Now, listeners, you'll be amazed to hear that we're on tour with our show, Hot Mess. There's only now about, like, four months left to see Hot Mess.

47:43Yes, get involved, people. Yes, because we're going to finish up this tour in November and then do our Christmas show. Yeah. But, yeah, so if you want to come and see Hot Mess, then come on. Come on. What's stopping you? Scummymummys.com, please. Yes. Gloucester in September. Gloucester. Yeah. That'd be nice. Do you know what's selling well? Colchester don't bother mentioning it then fine thank you so much Andrea for coming on the podcast and putting up with our nonsense oh I love your nonsense it's been lovely to have you it's been great thank you very much nice to see you after all it's such a long time I know it's been lovely it's gone so well since the last time I saw you oh thanks well you look amazing and your book's amazing and thank you thank you for honouring us with your comeback yeah it's like Confessions of the Dance War too oh I love it okay good You're welcome.

48:34Yeah. Strangest Madonna impression I've ever heard. Until next time. Bye-bye.

48:49All right. I feel like it's your turn, Helen, to introduce this one. Yes. I'd be delighted. McLean, not McLean. Yes. I should know that. To be fair, honestly, I'll answer to Angela. I've literally been called Angelocene. Just happy to be here. That's nice. Is your kid's birthday coming up? Don't stress the prep. The Party Shop at Michael's is your one-stop shop for everything from bluey to rodeo. Transform your space into a birthday wonderland with dream-worthy tablescapes and decor starting at 99 cents. Plus, get free helium inflation on select balloon styles. Whether you're crafting a one-of-a-kind bash or grabbing the essentials, Michaels has everything to make their big day legendary.

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