'The Cost of Giving a Damn': Justine Palefsky on building Kindred, Radical Generosity and Scaling Without Selling Out

21:01Tasneem Amin:or even closer than siblings at this point. But you get to know what is our flavor of dysfunction or the places where dysfunction can emerge given the two imperfect humans that we are? And how do we develop language around it and see around corners and find ways to work through it so that it doesn't have to stop us?

21:23Justine Palefsky:I love that. And I've been in a co-foundership for 10 years. And so it's the longest relationship I've ever had. You know, these are real relationships and they also go through their undulations also mirrored in the time of life that you're in. You know, I started mine when I was 24. I'm going to be 34. Right. So that's a huge decade of life changing things that happen. I wanted to shift to starting to talk about effectively the idea for Kindred, because, as you said, first comes finding your co-founder and then comes the idea. I'm of the belief that on the planet already we have enough stuff and continuing to just make more and more is not the solution.

22:10Justine Palefsky:And Kindred does something very interesting. It doesn't take more. It uses a previously relatively untapped resource. So I was wondering if you could just share with me a bit more about like the history of home swapping and where kind of Kindred fits into that timeline.

22:27Tasneem Amin:So home swapping is a really old idea. Almost every major culture or major religion has a value system around welcoming the traveler and housing the traveler. A more concrete place to start is probably the 1950s. There was a company called Intervac that started coordinating home swaps between teachers. These were people who had summer vacation, a couple months where they wanted to travel. And it's expensive and hard to find rentals or hotels for that length of time. And so InterVac started coordinating teacher home swaps. There was also a big proliferation of student exchange programs. I've also heard about a big, almost like phone book of names that was sort of this, if you know, you know, asset that people would pass between major cities in Europe and major cities in the U.S.

23:29Tasneem Amin:where there were people who had opted in to being interested in home swapping. And you could literally call and organize home swaps. The Guardian newspaper in the UK had a home swapping section. Now, if you fast forward to the pandemic, there was this moment in time when suddenly all of these people around the world were able to work in more remote, flexible environments. Even if they weren't fully remote, so many more people were able to take a week or two to work remotely. you know, ever since the pandemic, there's just been this shift in consumer behavior where there's a lot more location flexibility that many more kind of professionals have.

24:13Tasneem Amin:And I think simultaneously you have economic challenges. I think I am not saying anything that we don't know when I say that, you know, inflation has gone up there, everything, the cost of living is so high and unaffordable and people want to travel, but can't afford the kind of travel that they ideally would be able to engage in. And so you have this kind of confluence of factors where people have more flexibility, they have a desire to travel, but it's increasingly feeling financially out of reach. And then I think the last kind of macro force is there recently has It's been a real hunger to get back to ways of experiencing the world that feel more meaningful and get back to the soul of what travel is.

25:09Tasneem Amin:I think there was a big kind of proliferation of short-term rentals over the 2010s. And there's a lot of frustration with what the kind of proliferation of short-term rentals means, especially in high-demand cities where it's taking homes off of the market that otherwise could have been occupied by locals. And so there's folks who are tired of staying in kind of sterile or empty rentals and were interested in a more human way of moving through the world. So I think those three factors really set the stage for an idea like Kindred. And it's funny, I talk to so many people who are like, I had this idea too, or I've been doing this with my friends, or, you know, it's not just us.

25:53Tasneem Amin:I think there are moments in time in the world where ideas kind of like come in the ether because it just makes sense for the time. And certainly some of our growth at Kindred has been us not messing things up too badly. But I think the other part of the growth is just that I think the world needs this right now. What we decided to try and create was a way for communities to coordinate, for folks to stay in each other's places instead of leaving them empty for days or weeks at a time when they travel. And create a system of services to make the experience of finding a match and going on a trip really seamless, really predictable, and really safe.

26:36Tasneem Amin:And so I think all of the many decades or more of home sharing, I think, has led naturally to this moment where we're seeing this real surge of interest in home swapping as a third category in travel. Like you don't have to choose just between hotels and short term rentals anymore. There's now another option.

27:00Justine Palefsky:And as you mentioned, like there's so many issues there that people don't even, I think, think about when they think of like a cheap Airbnb or a cheap booking. And actually what you do is you tap into primary homes, which often aren't rented on that short term rental market. And so based on all of those issues, how did you decide to start Kindred?

27:21Tasneem Amin:The big bet was that we could remove payment from the, between the guest and the host. And removing payment would do a couple of things. One is it would make this experience much more affordable. It's basically a social contract where you say, I'm going to host some people in this community. And in exchange, I'm going to be able to stay at the places of members of this community. And then the other big bet for removing that kind of pay to stay model was that we would set up the incentives where even at scale, it wouldn't incentivize investors to go add supply. If you can't earn money by putting a home on Kindred, it doesn't make sense for investors to go buy up 10 homes in Venice, Italy, and list them on Kindred.

28:13Tasneem Amin:You know, you're not making money that you can use to pay your mortgage or pay the utility bill. And this was a really controversial decision, especially in a place like Silicon Valley. I can't tell you how many investors we were pitching early in our journey and it just kind of broke their brain. They're like, just have people pay each other to stay. You know, it doesn't, this is what other, you know, company or product has scaled removing, you know, payment from that host guest relationship. And, you know, I think we really stuck to our guns there because of our conviction on incentive structure.

28:54Tasneem Amin:Sure. If you have people start paying each other over time, gravity will, will pull the business to professionalizing that supply. And we didn't want to do that. We felt like that already exists in the world. Vacation rentals, we don't need to add another vacation rental platform. What would be additive to the world is if we could find a way to actually make better use of all of these primary home assets that we have all over the world that are sitting empty for days or weeks without resulting in those converting from primary residences to investment homes? How can we fill the homes we already have without setting up these incentives for it to just kind of turn into another professionalized marketplace?

29:42Tasneem Amin:So that was the bet. And it absolutely seemed crazy at first. And And we were very much underestimated. I think a lot of folks said nobody would let people stay in their actual home just for the promise of being able to stay somewhere else later on. And our members, especially our early members who kind of turned this into a movement, really proved them wrong. We now our members have hosted each other over, I think, a thousand years worth of nights given to other members of the community in their primary residences. Not for cash, but to participate in a give to get economy where everybody gives and everybody receives.

30:32Justine Palefsky:The sponsor of season five is one of my favorite female founded brands. Keone is a swimwear and resort wear brand made entirely in Greece. Of course, I had to ask the founders Lydia and Amelia what they thought about slowing down while trying to build a successful business. They told me that while they had very strong vision for their brand, they were also both mothers and their business values were more holistic. what truly mattered to them was that they carried this brand together, trust each other, support one another, and respect the flow of family life, the times they need to slow down and step back.

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31:45Justine Palefsky:Just put the Slowdown, one word, at checkout for 20 % off your first order at kione.com. From this commodification of your home to actually sharing your home, I think that's where Kindred has some real differences to anything else that's out there. Could you talk to me more about that karmic community, the rules and guidelines that you set up, this give to get model?

32:15Tasneem Amin:We knew we wanted this to feel really human and really authentic and be almost the opposite of the anonymous rental marketplace. So in all these decisions, both macro decisions and micro decisions, we kept that in mind. One of our values is be human first. And that comes to play with everything from a big strategy decision. For example, the decision to not accept homes that are solely investment properties. and it also comes to play in these micro decisions of what do we make a user profile look like instead of allowing it to be anonymous we wanted to really lean into connecting as as humans and so we wanted people to be able to add not only photos but intro videos because videos you can get such a better sense of somebody's personality we wanted them to be able to add little profiles for their dogs or cats if they're going to be traveling too, add their interests, share their social media links, and encourage people to get on a video chat to get to know each other before confirming a stay so that it really feels by the time you're swapping homes or staying in each other's places, you've looked each other in the eyes, you've met each other, and you feel like friends instead of like somebody on the end of an anonymous transaction.

33:36Tasneem Amin:One of the best decisions that I think we made was really leaning into this tradition of leaving handwritten thank you notes. We realized it's an extremely magical experience to come home from a trip, walk in and your house is cleaner than when you left it. and there's a warm human thank you note waiting for you on the dining room table of somebody who's sharing what this trip meant to them or how much they loved your home. It creates this almost generosity high where you come in and say, oh, I'm so glad that they had a good time. I feel good. And we realize like maybe being generous and being thanked and expressing gratitude to each other can actually be a reward in itself.

34:28Tasneem Amin:I think a lot of people, myself included, are hungry for more meaning. You know, we want to feel like we exist within a community. We want to connect. And so designing for these moments became a way of us trying to manifest that and keep that tradition alive as Kindred grew. So in our product, we have people, you know, click through these screens that set here are cultural norms as a part of Kindred. Here's our code of conduct. You know, it is an expected part of our culture to leave a thank you note, you know, for your host. And so it's hard to do kind of enforce culture at scale. We talked about how something like Burning Man has actually done an amazing job of enforcing cultural norms, you know, at scale, Of course, not 100 % adherence, but it's something that we think a lot about for how we can make sure that as new members join, they're kind of taught what's normal in this community, both by our product and the design of the experience that we're creating, but also by the other members who they interact with as a part of the community.

35:45Tasneem Amin:So, so much of what is great about Kindred is, or things that we learned from our members and that our members asked for. The notes was one, and then the other is just community events and get togethers. I think we created a member Slack, mostly with the intention of getting product feedback from members, you know, being able to say, hey, what do you guys think about this screen? and members joined the Slack and started kind of just organizing on their own. You know, I remember somebody posting, Hey, does anybody who lives in the Brooklyn area, you know, want to go on a walk with our, with our dogs at some point, or, Hey, I'm an artist.

36:21Tasneem Amin:I have a show opening. Does anybody want to come, you know, to my gallery? And we realized there was an appetite for this to be more than just a place to connect for accommodations, but actually a way to form these kind of invisible strings of connection all over the globe. The really magical experience is going somewhere you've never been before, being able to stay in a home and feel like you're actually trading lives with someone instead of just visiting like a tourist. And on that trip to this brand new city, being warmly welcomed by a community that already lives there.

37:01Justine Palefsky:One of the things I love about Kindred is that you can't buy credits on the app. Every house is equal. Could you tell me more about your decision to do that and what that actually means?

37:12Tasneem Amin:The way that the credit economy works is it's a give a night to get a night economy where by hosting members, you earn a night that you can use to stay at a different member's home. To your point, we made it so that one night equals one night, regardless of the size of your home or the value of your home. partially because we felt that letting someone stay in your place is an act of almost radical generosity that should be rewarded, whether you have a 2000 square foot home or a 500 square foot studio. And we didn't want people to get into this kind of transactional mindset of like, well, my home is worth this much and it's slightly more than what your home is worth.

37:57Tasneem Amin:So my home's worth this many points and your home's worth that. That sort of takes you out of the social contract and into the financial contract. And so that was kind of that design decision. And to your point, the only way to earn credits on Kindred is to contribute supply somehow. Generally, it's by, you know, hosting. We also do reward folks with credits if they refer someone who is accepted because that's also adding supply. But we made the decision that it's, you cannot buy credits on Kindred so that you can't pay to stay. And you also can't sell credits because if you could sell credits, then it would sort of just be like paying somebody with money.

38:45Tasneem Amin:It would be financial compensation. And this is something that really makes me like when I go to bed at night, I can feel that I'm building a product that's in line with my values because we've created a little space that works the way that I wish the rest of the world worked, where the people who are the most generous are the ones who get rewarded. You sort of want to live in a world where the people who contribute are the ones who get rewarded instead of the people with the most money. And that's this, you know, core part of this kindred experiment that we're running. And so far, it seems there's a lot of people who want to raise their hand and say they want to be a part of that world too.

39:27Justine Palefsky:You know, there's so much wrong with what we've done with following a masculine capitalist Western model of success and the never-ending desire for profit, profit at all costs, capitalist culture, I think is doing a lot of damage to people in many different ways. But you know, the reality of your product is that you still need funding to be able to create it. And you've just done your C round of funding where you raised$150 million. And so I'm wondering, A, how do you sit with that kind of contradiction of like, I need money still to be able to create the generosity economy. And how do you stay grounded as a female founder in that crazy capitalist VC cycle?

40:13Tasneem Amin:Yeah, it's a great question. I think this is the nuance that we need to hold. We're experimenting with removing commodification from an experience. And also at the same time, it's absolutely a commodification because we're a business. We want to create a world where this experience is radically affordable, but we need to charge money in order to be able to create that experience. It's a challenge, I think, especially in a place like Silicon Valley where the culture is so oriented around dollar signs, performance, scale, growth at all costs. It's a challenge to try and balance. building a sustainable and profitable business, because Kindred is a business, and building something that we're proud of, that has an impact on the world that we think is a movement in the right direction.

41:19Tasneem Amin:I think I have to believe that you can make a business that also has a value system. I think we should expect CEOs of businesses that are for-profit businesses to also give a damn about the impact of their business while having it still be a business that can scale and grow. But to answer your question more concretely, how do you stay grounded? I think the really important thing for Taz and I was to make sure that the investors that we took on were people who felt really values aligned with us. We have a no assholes rule on Kindred and we have it for Kindred investors. We wanted to make sure that anybody who we bring on is signing up for this ride and trusts us as leaders to steward this product in the right kind of direction.

42:17Tasneem Amin:And so one of the conversations that we have with our investors before we accept any of their funding was, there may be a time where we need to slow down growth because the quality of the experience is degrading or because we're not confident that we can keep up with growth and keep some essential part of what we're trying to build. And you need to know that and be okay with that if you're going to be an investor here because we're not going to do the growth at all costs. And it makes sense for us as a business. The business argument for that perspective is trust is our product. You know, like this is not interesting if we lose trust and people are no longer comfortable joining with their primary residence.

43:06Tasneem Amin:So we can't grow at all costs and lose trust, that would be losing our competitive advantage. So, you know, we wanted to make sure that everybody was kind of signing up for the same thing and state at the outset that we were going to try and grow, but we were not going to try and grow at the expense of the integrity of the experience.

43:31Justine Palefsky:And you mentioned there kind of femininity and a possible feminine way of leading. I was wondering what kind of leader you would say that you are.

43:40Tasneem Amin:I would say my superpower as a leader is really around having a vision for what this future should look like and rallying people around that. I think I'm able to be pretty self-aware on the things that I'm good at and the things I am bad at also. And that can be a superpower as well. That self-awareness to know when to bring on experts who are way better than me at various functions. The way that I see my role is to help line up all of our teammates so that we're kind of like birds flying in formation and help empower them to do their jobs. But I made a decision very early that I was just going to have to drop any expectations of me acting or looking or sounding like what I thought a CEO was supposed to act like or look like or sound like.

44:44In the earlier days, I felt a lot of imposter syndrome and self-doubt, you know, around.

44:55Tasneem Amin:And I just remember driving on my way to go talk with some investors and thinking, gosh, I'm so tired. I'm so stressed out. I, on top of all of this, can't go try and wear this mask of what I think they expect a Silicon Valley CEO to be like. Like, I got too much to worry about. I'm going to have to just do it my way. And it sounds so trite. But, you know, once I dropped that and just started being more unapologetically myself, I ended up, I think, attracting the investors or the employees or the candidates, you know, who were signing up for me and who I am.

45:40Justine Palefsky:You mentioned the anxiety and stressful situations. And I'm wondering in a very fast, rapidly scaling business, have you ever had burnout or felt overworked? How do you balance or come to the edge of overwork and pull yourself back?

45:57Tasneem Amin:I have felt absolutely overworked or burned out at various points, but have been able to come back. And it's a good question. How are we able to do that? First of all, having a co-founder is really important. We get to know each other's kind of like stress signals. You know, what does Taz look like when I think she's been burning the candle at both ends and really needs to take a break? And I can go sit her down and say, Taz, I've got this. Go take a vacation. And she will and has done the same for me. So having someone you can really load balance with is critically important. We sometimes talk about being kind of on the other end of a seesaw where we kind of take turns, like lifting each other up, you know, over time.

46:45Tasneem Amin:Um, I think another part, um, of the recipe for me has been, um, carving out time with kids and dogs. Like children don't care about what's going on at work. You know, they want to have fun and go outside and you need to just pay all of this attention to your, you know, to these kids. Um, and you don't have time to worry about, you know, all these things going on at work. My sister has three little ones and they live, you know, just blocks away. And so, and I have two dogs and dogs are just sort of the perfect beings that live in the moment. They also don't care about what happened at work that day and they get you outside.

47:26Tasneem Amin:I aspire to be like my dogs. Dogs and kids are a good kind of recipe for the soul. And then I think just like my advice to other people would be pay attention to the things that fill your cup. write them down and have like a menu that you can come back to for when you're in that deep, dark moment. Um, maybe it's going out into nature. Um, you know, maybe it's taking time off. Maybe it's finding, um, one moment of whimsy, you know, each day. Um, maybe it's sticking to your date night with your partner. Um, I also have, you know, member talking to members who have really beautiful experiences with Kindred is something that helps me fill my emotional cup.

48:14Tasneem Amin:And so I have a little folder on my computer that is called Treasures and I just screenshot, you know, little stories or moments. And sometimes when I'm feeling like, ugh, why am I even doing this again? I like go into my Treasures folder and give myself a little boost. So you sort of need to like create your bomb shelter in advance so that when you have this, you know, when you get kicked over and you're having trouble getting back up. You don't have to figure out in that moment, what is it again that makes me feel good? You already have it kind of written down and you know what to do.

48:48Justine Palefsky:I don't want to labor this point, but I really want to touch, kind of continue on this dichotomy because it's really alive in me right now about the reality of work. Because I think people hear the name of this podcast and they think it's about working less, not working at all. But I know that to start something means extremely long and hard days. And I think there's an assumption that with negative hustle culture, there's so much burnout, but there's actually so much joy in building something from nothing of solving problems, bringing people together under the same banner. I often work very late nights and all day.

49:29Justine Palefsky:And it's not because someone has a gun to my head or that the work is measured by the amount of hours I do, but because I'm in flow and I'm creatively solving a problem and I'm really enjoying it. So I'm kind of wondering how you reconcile that feeling of working of it's like both good and bad parts.

49:49Tasneem Amin:Yeah. You hit on a really astute point, which is that burnout doesn't necessarily just come from hours worked. Um, for me, it looks a lot more like doing work that I don't like or having, um, a, a tremendous amount of emotional labor. Um, certainly, you know, a lot of hours to some extent, you know, sleep deprivation, like that absolutely can, um, can, uh, contribute. But I think that similarly to you, some of my happiest moments where I felt the strongest sense of purpose have been related to work. And, you know, seeing the thing that you've been working so hard on building, you know, exist in the world and seeing somebody benefit from it or hitting a goal with your team.

50:49Tasneem Amin:Like what feels better? I think similarly to having your menu for how do you fill your emotional cup? Another kind of self-awareness technique, I think, is just paying really close attention when you are entering those moments of flow in your work. What are those moments where it just comes out of you, where you don't even notice how much time is passing, where you can spend hours doing something and you still feel energized instead of feeling depleted? I think there are different types of work that do that for each of us. And going back and doing a, you know, calendar audit and saying, how much of that work did I have in my week, I think can be really powerful.

51:38Tasneem Amin:And if you're able to design your work life to maximize doing those things that made you feel in flow and minimize doing the things that made you feel drained, you could work the same number of hours and feel so much more energized and happy and in tune with yourself. Um, for me, so much of that is, uh, you know, designing experiences for other people and, and creating moments. And sometimes as a CEO, I haven't been able to do a lot of that. Like the reality is, um, there were, there are moments where I can really lean into that, but there were also moments where I had to wear the finance hat.

52:21Tasneem Amin:I had to wear the legal hat. I had to do accounting. I had to do, you know, fundraising, all these things. So it's, it's, you don't always have the luxury of being able to like, just do the thing that makes you feel in flow. But trying to find like one little pocket each day can really help you still find that joy in your work and have it be a source of energy instead of having that day just be a total drain. And sometimes I've done this in like unhinged ways where I felt like my, you know, I spend all day, you know, fixing some accounting thing. And then I spend 30 minutes at home gluing googly eyes to a, to a, you know, 10 rocks and leaving them around San Francisco.

53:11Tasneem Amin:Like, um, just because it tickles me to think of, you know, a little kid coming across and seeing a rock with a little face, you know, and, and I just created that little moment, you know, for some random stranger in, in San Francisco, um, which is something that makes me feel, um, you know, in flow and purposeful, even though I wasn't able to fit that into my actual work schedule that day. What does success look like for you now?

53:37Justine Palefsky:Like what is your working definition of success currently?

53:41Tasneem Amin:Do I feel that I can go to bed each night, um, knowing that I did my best to add something to the world that made life a little bit better for somebody else. Sometimes having a goal, success is when I hit, you know, X, can take a lot of the joy out of the the process. And enjoying the way there, I've learned is pretty important for me. When I was thinking about starting a company, one of the exercises that I did for myself was I took a little notebook and I went to the park with my dogs, of course, and I sat down and I wrote at the top of the notebook, what is the meaning of life, you know, underline.

54:40Tasneem Amin:And I brainstormed like, what are all the different like meanings or goals or purposes that I could think of, um, for life? Is it to be happy? Is it to, you know, maximize my potential from a talent perspective? Is it to be the best friend or sister? You know, is it to, and I brainstormed this long list and I sat staring at it and said like, which one do I want to choose, like which one feels the most right for me? Like, is it doing the most good? Is it, you know, doing donating the most money? Is it, you know, like who knows? There's so many different ways to think about it. And I remember staring at that list and the one that really jumped out to me was the sense of purpose around creation felt really aligned with me at that time of, you know, I, I, I think a life that's, um, uh, where I have been able to add things to the, to the world that improves somebody's life, even in a little way, um, that is, um, creating, um, moments or experiences, um, that are in line with my values and that I can feel proud of and adding that to the world, that thing couldn't have existed without me.

56:03Tasneem Amin:And I can start a ripple effect, um, by, uh, uh, you know, creating an experience, um, that impacts people somehow, um, that feels like success. And I stared at that list with that one circled. And I was like, I think this means I have to start a company. Um, because, and I was like, starting a company will mean I'm stressed out, you know, it's, it'll be hard. Like, I don't know if I'll be happy. And I realized like, well, happy isn't actually my definition of success. Like maybe, you know, um, the, uh, and, and that was actually a bit freeing.

56:41Justine Palefsky:It's really why I have this podcast is the slowdown to me is like slowing down enough to actually sit and do that brainstorming exercise. I think too often we follow a subconscious idea of what we think success is, what society tells us it is, what our parents tell us it is. And we're kind of like trudging through life and we're playing a game we never like really signed up to play. And there's a lot of regret at the end. And actually like, to slow down enough to actually sit down and ask yourself, what does success look like? What do I want to do with my time? And then following that through is really like a mission.

57:21Justine Palefsky:The last question that I have that I ask everybody is if I had to watch a film or read a book or have one cultural experience that will help me understand you better, what would it be and why?

57:36Tasneem Amin:This might, I hope that this counts, but I would say go on a home swap. I think that there's something really special about this experience that you don't get when you just think about it practically. And when I went on my first home swaps, long before starting Kindred, I would reach out to people on Facebook or try and figure out how I could travel somewhere and being willing to host people. And in my house, it takes a leap and there's a discomfort sometimes or an anxiety with letting someone stay in your home. It's a big act of vulnerability. And I actually think that vulnerability can often be the necessary condition for intimacy.

58:27Tasneem Amin:You know, when people are reciprocally vulnerable, when I let you in and you let me in, literally or metaphorically, we build a bond and a closeness. And letting someone into your home is very vulnerable. and so there's this kind of magical feeling that emerges um of closeness that you feel for somebody who you've swapped homes with and it sneaks up on people uh and so I think to to understand why I get so fired up about this idea uh I think taking that leap going on a home swap and seeing how that feels I think will help you understand it and I think what's key to me from this conversation

59:15Justine Palefsky:about kindred is that like i think people might see it because it pops up on a lot of my instagram ads and they might think oh but like what can what is it i will get out of this in terms of will there be a home available in the city that i want to go to in the week that i actually need it like what's the inventory like um but actually what i'm getting from you is this this more like you should swap you should give your home like have the experience of letting somebody stay in your home without it being a transaction um because i think we've we've gotten so accustomed to this idea of transaction and doing it in a short-term rental money way that actually people have like forgotten in some way like the magical feeling that you have after being generous to

1:00:07Tasneem Amin:somebody. Try out what it feels like to be a participant in the experience again, instead of just a consumer. And I promise it'll feel a whole lot richer.

1:00:17Justine Palefsky:Thank you so much, Justine. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for tuning in. This episode was hosted and created by me, Tiana Tambridge, produced by Lulu Goad, sound and video production and recorded at Brazen Studios cover art design by Natalia Ruhe. This season was sponsored by Keone. Please subscribe to The Slowdown to be notified of upcoming episodes, tell a friend, and please leave a review. It really does help a new podcast like this get out there in the world. And remember, we're all heading to the same destination, and there is no prize for getting there early, so we might as well slow down.