The $17bn nuclear start-up without any revenue

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1:06There's an energy company called Oklo that's riding a crazy wave of investor enthusiasm.

1:13Jamie Smyth: Oklo's valuation soared to more than$25 billion in just 18 months. And this really caught my eye. That's the FT's U.S. energy editor, Jamie Smith. I've been tracking quite a lot of these smaller nuclear companies over the last 18 months, but nothing had reacted like this. Oklo is publicly listed. And this year alone, the company's share price has surged more than 400 percent. And to pair with its stock market success, Oklo has big ambitions. They want to power the artificial intelligence revolution using nuclear energy. but a new type of nuclear energy which hasn't been in use to date in the commercial nuclear world.

1:58But here's the thing. This high-flying startup, Oklo, it doesn't have revenues, licenses to operate, nor does it have any contracts with customers. So what's going on with this company? That is what Jamie and our colleagues have been digging into.

2:18Jamie Smyth: Oklo has become a symbol of the AI boom. and the ongoing nuclear renaissance, because of the astonishing rise in the value of its shares and its close relationship with the Trump administration. How the company fares could have a big influence in whether nuclear energy powers this AI revolution.

2:39I'm Michaela Tendera from the Financial Times. Today on Behind the Money, is Okla's promise justified? Or is it just riding the wave of AI hype?

3:12Hey, Jamie, welcome back to the show.

3:14Jamie Smyth: Hi, Michaela. Glad to be here. Tell me about the basics of Oklo. What is this company? When and where did it get its start? So, Oklo started in 2013 by a couple called Jacob and Caroline DeWitt, who met while they were studying nuclear engineering at MIT. The company was based in Silicon Valley, and Jacob and Caroline had studied nuclear engineering. They got really interested in developing new types of nuclear energy so that they could help to provide power. And the key to this is emissions-free power. So they deeply believe in how nuclear energy can be used to help provide power in an environmentally friendly way.

4:01The couple get their first big break early on when they meet someone who becomes one of Oklo's key backers.

4:07Jamie Smyth: So back in 2013, they met Sam Altman of OpenAI fame at a screening of a pro-nuclear documentary. Now, Altman has a longstanding interest in nuclear technologies. In fact, he's invested in a nuclear fusion company before. And so he decides to invest in Oklo. I think if you look at history, the best, the highest impact thing to improve people's quality of life has been cheaper and more abundant energy. He later agrees to chair the company and steer its stock market listing. Now, that happens in May 2024 through a SPAC or a special purpose acquisition company deal.

4:50But after the listing, Oklo's stock doesn't really take off right away.

4:55Jamie Smyth: At the time of its stock market listing, nuclear wasn't all the rage. People were still quite reserved on nuclear. So we didn't see a big jump in Oklo's share price initially. In fact, it fell on the first day of the listing. But after Donald Trump's election, and particularly with his inauguration, he really ratcheted up the focus on energy dominance and also gave this strong support for nuclear power. And so this year, Oklo's share price steadily rises. And then in May 2025, you get Oklo's chief executive, Jacob DeWitt, visiting the White House and speaking in the Oval Office. Yes, thank you, Mr.

5:37President. I'm Jacob DeWitt, CEO, co-founder at Oak Low.

5:40Jamie Smyth: You know, this was a really big deal. You have Trump sitting in the Oval Office, launching several executive orders on nuclear energy, pledging to quadruple capacity by 2050. And he's invited Jacob and a couple of other CEOs of nuclear companies. You've got the chief executive of Constellation Energy standing there beside him, the chief executive of General Matter, an enrichment company standing there. Nuclear is a manifestation of energy dominance. In fact, a golf ball of uranium metal, which this is not, but it's a golf ball, has enough energy continent to power your entire life's energy. I mean, it doesn't get any better than that.

6:17Jamie Smyth: The room is really packed full of celebrities, and there's Jacob DeWitt in amongst them all. Nuclear uses the fewest materials, right? The least amount of concrete, of steel, of fuel, for amount of energy it produces. So it should be the cheapest, the most scalable, the most sustainable, just like you mentioned, Mr. President, about the importance of doing that, right? The physics are on our side, and these things help unleash this innovation to actually realise that. So it's never been more exciting. Very exciting indeed. Go ahead, please. This platform to speak from the Oval Office next to Trump, I think was a huge endorsement of the company for investors.

6:51Jamie Smyth: You really start to see the stock price jump from there, and then it really goes through the roof. It's made the DeWitts paper billionaires. They own just under 18 % of the company. though they've made a large chunk of real money too by selling some of their stock. In the past six months, they've made about$250 million in share sales, according to some Bloomberg data analyzed by the FT.

7:18Jamie tells me that Oklo stock has been benefiting from a few factors all coming together at just the right moment.

7:25Jamie Smyth: Well, I think Oklo really sits at the intersection of these two stock market booms in artificial intelligence and energy companies. The AI revolution is being driven by NVIDIA, Microsoft, Amazon, and other big tech giants. And this realization that data centers, which are driving the AI technology, they're going to require huge amounts of electricity. So that's why you're seeing shares in energy companies, utilities like Constellation Energy, gas turbine makers such as G, Varnova, and Siemens, and other nuclear startups. all their shares are soaring. Businesses that provide nuclear power are especially appealing to investors right now.

8:08Jamie Smyth: Well, there's a nuclear renaissance going on right now, partly because big tech companies are desperate to source power for their AI data centers. And nuclear can be a clean, reliable option. It fits the sustainability pledges that the big tech companies have on climate. But there's also the Trump factor. The administration is spending big on nuclear, Like Jamie mentioned earlier, the Trump administration has pledged to quadruple U.S. nuclear capacity by 2050. It is very ambitious plans to build out 10 large-scale reactors and support this new technology that Oklo is developing. And specifically, Oklo has benefited from this.

8:49Jamie Smyth: They have been offered a place on a fast-tracking program for their nuclear reactor. They've also been offered a place on a fuel program as well. and they are being given a very specialized, scarce form of fuel, which they require to run their type of reactor. So I think investors are responding to this and they're getting very excited. And there's another factor that Janie tells me has been important to Oklo's massive market valuation. I think one of the key reasons that investors have flocked to Oklo is that the Energy Secretary, Chris Wright, sat on their board until he was appointed to the administration.

9:30Jamie Smyth: So they feel the company is well-placed to benefit from this relationship. You know, Bank of America have actually said that this support from the Trump administration is one element that gives the company an edge over its rivals. Democrats, however, have alleged that it really creates an appearance of impropriety. and they have asked a series of questions of the administration about its relationship with Oklo. To be clear, the U.S. Department of Energy has told the FT that when Wright joined the administration, he, quote, divested assets and resigned from board positions that may appear to present a conflict of interest, end quote.

10:10They added, quote, this included resigning from the Oklo board and the forfeiture of unvested Oklo shares, which he never fully owned, end quote. All right, so Oklo's really benefiting from all this investor excitement. But now let's talk a little bit more about the nuts and bolts of their business. Jamie, what is Oklo's plan to actually create this power for the AI data centers?

10:35Jamie Smyth: Oklo wants to build a new type of nuclear reactor, something called a small modular reactor or an SMR. Now, these are generally a third of the size of the big standard reactors, such as the Three Mile Island reactor, which I visited last year, that power most of the electricity in the US from nuclear. And what's interesting about OCLOS SMR is that it wants to use liquid sodium as a coolant rather than the standard of water. And why sodium? So there are benefits to sodium cooled reactors. They generate less nuclear waste. Also, using sodium as a coolant means you don't have to have the really high pressures which water-cooled reactors have.

11:21Jamie Smyth: And if you don't have the really high pressure, then you don't have to use huge containment vessels to surround your reactor. You know, the tons and tons of concrete and iron and steel that contains a nuclear reactor in case there's an explosion. So, Oklo would say their reactor could be safer than a water-cooled reactor in terms of a Chernobyl-style accident. It's just not going to happen. But there are downsides to sodium-cooled reactors. You know, the big question with these sodium-cooled reactors are, we've had four or five of them actually already built in the United States over the last 40 years on a test basis.

12:04Jamie Smyth: But none of them have actually managed to become commercially viable. So they didn't take off. So why does Oklo think they can make them commercially viable? What's their business plan for selling this new type of reactor? So Oklo's doing something innovative in its business model as well. Normally, nuclear companies would build the physical reactors and then sell the reactors to a utility company such as Constellation Energy. And those utility companies would reach agreements with Google, Microsoft or Amazon to supply power. But what Oklo wants to do is build and operate the reactors itself and sell the power itself, effectively eliminating the middleman from this.

12:48So Oklo's plan here sounds pretty ambitious. First, they want to build a new kind of nuclear reactor that hasn't been sold commercially in the U.S. before. And second, they also have this untested business model. They want to sell the nuclear power themselves instead of offloading that to a utility company. Jamie, what's their timeline here?

13:14Jamie Smyth: Oklo have a very ambitious goal of commercially beginning to sell power through their SMRs by 2027. So that's within two years. That is quite ambitious because the company has had a lot of success in terms of its stock market valuation. But there's a few things that it hasn't got yet. They haven't yet built their nuclear reactor. They haven't got a license for their nuclear reactor. They haven't got any revenue. And they haven't got a legally binding contract with a customer. With not any customers at all? They don't have legally binding power purchase agreements with customers. What they've got is they've got MOUs or memorandums of understandings.

14:00Jamie Smyth: so companies have come to them and said we'd like to talk about and draw out an outline of an agreement but there's no legally binding agreement yet in place so until it can do that I think there'll always be a question mark over the sustainability of the company.

14:30built to navigate this shifting landscape, channeling capital toward the businesses, infrastructure, and energy solutions that are shaping tomorrow's economy, all while aiming to deliver the resilience and returns that portfolios seek today. Nuveen. Invest like the future is watching. Visit nuveen.com slash future to learn more. Investing involves risk. Principal loss is possible. A lot of what Oklo is pursuing is untested. The technology, but also the business model of both building the reactors and selling the power they generate. And as its market valuation soars, analysts are increasingly pointing out that the company's valuation is stretched.

15:12The business has attracted the attention of short sellers. That's people who bet on a stock's price going down. Oklo's short sellers have borrowed roughly 13 % of the stock. They believe that the DeWitts have underestimated the amount of time and money that's required to commercialize their technology. One area they've particularly struggled with is licensing.

15:34Jamie Smyth: One of the issues to do with Oklo is it's one of the few companies that has had a license application rejected by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the United States. That is quite a big thing. The licenses Jamie's talking about, these are the federal authorizations that any nuclear company needs to operate. You'd need them for getting the green light to building a nuclear reactor, using nuclear materials, managing waste, etc., etc. In 2020, Oklo applied for a license to operate and build its nuclear reactor. There was a 22-month process where the NRC officials and Oklo spoke together, but they couldn't come to an agreement that Oklo was providing enough information to justify the award of the license.

16:22Jamie Smyth: And then in 2022, the NRC didn't award the license. So that really raises the question mark about whether Oklo is able to secure one of these licenses. Oklo has strongly criticized the NRC decision to not award them a license. They even alleged the NRC staff engaged in inappropriate behavior for a regulator. Now, I tried to ask the NRC for comment on that, but they said they couldn't respond due to the government shutdown. In the years since, Oklo has successfully lobbied the government to streamline the NRC licensing process. So the Trump administration has set up a separate pathway for SMR developers to build test reactors on federal land under the oversight of the Department of Energy, which is run by Energy Secretary Wright.

17:12Jamie Smyth: And beyond that, the Trump administration has piled extraordinary pressure on the NRC to approve reactors within short timeframes, much shorter than previously. But as Oklo moves forward, it's a space that everyone will be watching closely. I suppose one of the risks with Oklo is if they try to move too fast, they try to race ahead with their technology and they hit a wall, then it could impact the rest of the industry. And this nuclear renaissance that we're beginning to see could be hurt by that. Safety is of key importance in the nuclear industry. If something goes wrong, you have seen it in the past, then the whole industry suffers.

17:57So to recap, this is a company with no customers and no contracts and...

18:04Jamie Smyth: At the minute, the company has generated zero revenue, Yet it is currently one of the highest valued pre-revenue companies listed in the U.S. And that makes people nervous. So you've talked about a number of risks and concerns around this company. Regulation, their lack of contracts, their technology is quite untested. Jamie, you've interviewed Jacob DeWitt. What does he say to these criticisms? So the thing about Oklo is, because it's based in Silicon Valley, it takes a very big tech approach to how it's going to operate, which is very different than other nuclear companies have worked in the past.

18:48Jamie Smyth: You know, move fast and break things is the motto in Silicon Valley. And that's how Oklo have operated. That has attracted a lot of criticism on the company by people who are worried about safety and regulation. But it also is one of their strengths in terms of they are moving very fast and they're trying to be ambitious. And this goal of trying to launch their reactor by 2027, you know, that is a very tight deadline to make. But DeWitt says that's an achievable one. So what does he say to the fact that he doesn't have any contracts signed? He's not concerned? I interviewed Jacob DeWitt recently and he told me, actually, if I'd have signed contracts now, I wouldn't have got the best terms.

19:32It would be a disservice to the company, to our shareholders, to everybody, if we had run off and signed some binding agreements, you know, even just like half a year ago because of where things are and where we are as a company and where the markets are today. Like there are different accelerated pathways for doing things. There are different opportunities for different fuel sources. Like all of these things have changed in the last few months that if we had locked ourselves into some pieces, it wouldn't be the best outcome.

19:56Jamie Smyth: So DeWitt's argument is, is that there's so many moving parts at the minute and the industry's moving so rapidly and changing so quickly that if they box themselves in by signing legally binding contracts now, they might miss out on a better deal later on. But I think the analysts and the investors are getting to a stage where they're very keen to have some revenue and some money and some site of a legally binding contract to give them more confidence that this is all going to move ahead. And what about this criticism you mentioned that perhaps Oklo is benefiting from its ties to the Trump administration through Energy Secretary Wright?

20:41Jamie Smyth: When I spoke with Jacob DeWitt, he told me that Wright had recused himself from decision-making regarding Oklo. I mean, I don't know all their requirements, but it's pretty clear that that's the case, because any interactions we have with the Department of Energy never go through or around his office. It's completely segmented away. He also told me that rivals had received similar Department of Energy awards to what Oklo has received. Now, thinking about the bigger picture, what does this rise of Oklo's shares illustrate to you, Jamie? I think what's interesting about Oklo is that there are very few listed nuclear companies.

21:17Jamie Smyth: So investors don't have a lot of choice. There's really a mix of investors. You do have some institutions who have to buy in, especially as the stock rises. But you also have a lot of retail investors. So retail investors are interesting because this is quite a risky stock. So having a lot of retail investors investing in the stock has caused some concern for other people in the nuclear industry. Because they have said, is there a danger that if there is a bad regulatory decision that goes against Oclo's favour, if there is a negative decision in some other aspect, Will all these retail investors just sell out of the stock rapidly and cause a bit of a crash?

22:09Jamie Smyth: The question is, is that price sustainable or is it extremely risky? And if things go wrong, does that hurt the entire industry? These are all the questions that we're left with. So as we're talking about this on the 4th of November, Oklo stock has been falling quite a bit over just the past couple of days. What does this volatility illustrate to you? Well, for me, it really shows there is a very frothy market environment surrounding AI and nuclear stocks, and any bit of market news can have a big impact. What I will point out is that Oklo surged up to a valuation of almost$25 billion a couple of weeks ago on all this market hype.

22:51Jamie Smyth: But after we published our story, the stock fell by 13%, wiping more than$2 billion off its market cap. And since then, other news organizations, including Bloomberg, have published critical stories and investors have continued to dump the stock. Today, at market close, Oklo is now valued at just under$17 billion. As Oklo charts its path forward, what do you think investors want to see from the company next? What do they need to do to really prove themselves? I think what investors probably want to see is they need to see delivery now. They need to see progress on a license with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

23:31Jamie Smyth: Oklo says they're working towards that. But they also need to see some contracts which are going to bring in some revenue. And most importantly of all, they need to see that these reactors are going to work and that they're going to work on a commercial basis. Jamie, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks very much.

23:54Behind the Money is hosted by me, Nikella Tindera. This episode was produced by me and Safiya Ahmed. Fact-checking by Simon Greaves. Sound design and mixing by Sam Giavinko. Original music is by Hannes Brown. Topher Forges is the FT's acting co-head of audio. Thanks for listening. See you next week.

24:25The future of fixed income investing will continue to blur the lines between public and private markets. Nuveen's credit platform was built to navigate this shifting landscape, channeling capital toward the businesses, infrastructure and energy solutions that are shaping tomorrow's economy, all while aiming to deliver the resilience and returns that portfolios seek today. Nuveen. Invest like the future is watching. Visit nuveen.com slash future to learn more. Investing involves risk. Principal loss is possible.