411 - How Do I Ask For a Raise in This Economy?

0:00Team building games are crucial for every single veterinary team out there, but who has the time to create a brand new game every single month? That is why we at Uncharted have got you covered with our brand new game, Protocol. We actually played this at the Uncharted Veterinary Conference this year, and y 'all loved it so much you begged us to create it into a digital download for you to play with your teams, and that's exactly what we did. This game is designed for you to be able to work through your team, through communication, through protocols, find gaps in the protocols themselves or protocols missing entirely.

0:33And overall, have a great discussion on what it means to follow protocols on a regular basis and where we might drop the ball when we don't have them written down. Check it out today at UnchartedVet.com. Link in the show notes. Welcome back to another episode of the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast. I am your host, Maria Perita, and I am here with Dr. Andy Burke to talk about something very real in this economy, and it is pay raises. That's right. We got a wonderful mailbag from a practice manager who is struggling because it's been three years since they got a raise. Their clinic has closed down some services, so they're not exactly showing the revenue where it needs to be.

1:10And economy is tough. Prices are up. They really need this raise. How do you approach it knowing everything that you know about the economy, knowing that visits are down, knowing that the clinic revenue isn't where it needs to be, and knowing that you might be already at that benchmark, three to five percent for the entire clinic. This practice manager, I think, is super smart for knowing these things ahead of time and for seeking advice on this, because genuinely there is an art to asking for a raise. And so Andy and I talk a lot about what to bring ahead of time, how to build our value, how to have this conversation in a way that it doesn't turn too emotional and it stays committed to the business.

1:46And in general, some things to also avoid doing when asking for a raise. And so if that resonates with you, go ahead and tune in for this episode. And now the Uncharted podcast. I want to take a moment to talk here about something that hits close to home for all of us that are working in the vet clinic. We all know that veterinary medicine isn't just a career path. If it were just a job, we'd probably all have much cleaner clothes and way lower blood pressure. No, it's a calling. It's that thing inside you that keeps you showing up for your patients and your team, even on the days when the coffee machine is broken and the schedule is double booked.

2:29Well, our friends at Zoetis get that. They've just launched a new initiative called Care Is Your Calling. It's specifically designed to recognize and support veterinary teams, not just for the work that you do, but for the reason that you do it. And here's the thing, hundreds of people at Zoetis are actually veterinarians themselves. They've been in the trenches, they understand the realities of daily practice, and they've spent the last 70 years working arm in arm with pros like us to push the profession forward. Everything Zoetis does is about strengthening that partnership, whether it's through clinical tools, reliable solutions you can actually trust in the exam room, or just listening to our feedback to build better resources for the future.

3:08They want to support your calling so that you can keep doing what you love. So do me a favor. Go check out careisyourcalling.com. Take a look at the resources they're building for you and your team. That's careisyourcalling.com. All right, let's get back to the show. All right, let's get started, Andy. How are you doing? Man, I'm doing fantastic. How are you? good i'm excited it is prime summertime right now barbecues pools all my favorite things what about you heck yeah no i'm getting ready to i'm actually i'm in that day before i leave for a week to go with the family to the beach oh nice and i'm like let's knock this out i got a laundry list of things yeah it's all it's all little stuff that came in at the very end it's like hey before you go could you do this and uh and you realize all the you realize all the things that have to happen for a family to go to the beach it's incredible it's like launching a space shuttle you know what i think like it's like it's a pre-flight checklist and they my daughter looked at me like aruba like what do you where how far no just like will billy south carolina beach like that that's why you're like we're just going to the beach you start looking around and my kids are like we didn't buy the spike ball game that we said we were gonna buy and i'm like no one's gonna play that game more than once anyway like we're not we don't need a spike ball game and they're like where are the other beach games like i don't i'm in the basement go find them but they will not go find them i will go find them and it's going to be that it's going to be like hey we got a bunch of people and everybody's planning to eat at home and so what is the menu and now i'm doing menu planning for nine people aging in range five years old to 75 years old and like it's just gonna be everybody's got weird dietary things it's an absolute like the beaches of normandy required slightly less work yeah than this beach trip is taking i hear you i hear you the good thing is i've got a great mailbag for you okay well thank thank goodness for that oh i don't know i don't have any sunshine road rainbow around that but we do have a really good mailbag that i'm actually very excited to talk with you, my boss, all around.

5:27Yeah, this is going to go so well for me. I'm so excited. It is genuinely around raises. And I'm going to paraphrase the mailbag that we got because it was very long. But essentially, this privacy manager has not received a raise in three years. It sounds like they're pretty well versed in the budgetary standpoint, because they did admit that they're within the three to five percent for their entire management team of their payroll. So she understands that. And overall, if she's saying she, it could be he, but he or she, what they did mention was that they have not received this pay raise. And because of inflation, they feel like they're getting a pay cut instead.

6:08And that normally they don't really say anything because they just get their raises anyway. And this is the part that really got me because I feel like I had totally been there before. They said, I'm wondering if I'm feeling resentful over the fact that I even have to ask in the first place. And I was like, oh, that touched my core a little bit. I understand what they were feeling. And they said that even though they did mention that revenue is down in their practice because they closed boarding and grooming. So with that, and then on top of the economy, they're generally asking, like, how do I even approach this conversation in a way that acknowledges the financial realities of the practice but still advocates for my own value?

6:44And at what point is pay enough to start thinking about changing jobs? I was like, oh. Yeah. These are great questions. And I really appreciated the context that they gave along with this. I think the number one thing that I would say to this person to help make them successful is, there's not a bad guy here. And I think that they know that. And again, I don't know this practice. I don't know what's going on. I really doubt. I choose to think the best of people. I think that that makes me a happier person. One of the things I admire about you so much. Yeah. Well, thank you. But, you know, I just don't like to think that, you know, the boss is hanging out, you know, laughing, you know, in the bathtubs of money.

7:30You know, it's like, yeah, Scrooge McDuck style swimming pool of cash. Like, I don't think that's going on. I love that they called out the fact that practice revenue is down. And, like, you know, it's easy to see, like, my expectation, especially if you're dealing with independent practice. Like just there's going to be a lot of nuance in this discussion. I think there has to be. Otherwise, people like they're like, it's that old saying that I love so much is like you can be righteous or effective. Choose one like you can be righteous and say I deserve. I shouldn't have to ask. And the cost of living is going up.

8:05And you would be right. And these companies should take care of their employees. And I think they should. And you're right. And also that that type of rhetoric and mindset. It's not helpful in actually coming to a good place where you get what you need. And also the company is happy that you're there and everybody feels good. And, you know, and there's and there's the maximum amount of opportunity for you going forward. And so anyway, I think a big part of that is just saying, hey, the answer to your question is, you know, should I feel resentful for having to ask? I would say, no, please don't.

8:37Like, please don't feel resentful. Well, just assume that revenue for the practice is down and there's a small business owner probably just sweating it. Or even if it's a corporation, they're looking at their budgets and things like that. And just try to assume everybody is doing their best. And also, you have your needs and you have things that you need. And I think another big part of Headspace for me, and I talk about this a lot, it just helps me out in so many phases of business, is I truly believe that being in business with someone and that means working for them. That's a relationship to me.

9:13And the way that we would look at relationships, I think we should carry those things through. And so Maria, you're my friend. And if you felt like I was doing something that hurt your feelings, I hope you would tell me that. And I would want you to tell me that. You know what I mean? And like, if we were in a relationship and you say, Andy, you're checked out. you know i i i'm feeling like i'm being kept in the dark about what's going on i would want you to tell me that because that's that's you and me having having a healthy relationship and this the same thing is true here is like you know it's the old brene brown quote like what is kind i don't think not asking for a raise when you feel like that's what you need and start to think about like at what point do i leave i i don't think that that's the kindest thing i think the kindest thing you can do is be empathetic to, you know, to, to them and to, you know, to assume good intent on their part.

10:08And then also to be honest about what your needs are and, and kind of, you know, what, what you're looking for and kind of where you are and let's all try to work together and try to make this thing happen. And I just think that that's the healthiest mindset and way to approach this yeah i think i i think people blow this up because a lot of us really associate our salary with our value and like that's when i think that's when things go off the rails and they're like i'm a good practice manager i should make this amount of money or the same money that my friend makes or this other you know thing that's that's published here or if i went and worked for this other company they would pay me this and the fact that i'm making less than that either means a i'm a sucker or b i'm people don't think that i'm that good and i would say i think that that's all a construct around salary as self-worth and i and i get it and i'm not trying to talk people out of you know advocating for themselves but i think comparison is the thief of joy and i i really think that some of the most amazing people in this world don't work at the place where they could make the maximum amount of money that they could make.

11:23And that doesn't mean you should be taken advantage of, but it really like, I don't know. I just, I do not look around at people who, and look at their salary and say, that's a better doctor than that other person. Like, you know, that's, that's just not true. The vet, the vet at the super swanky high end place that's doing TPLO surgeries and making, you know, a half million dollars a year as an associate vet. I'm not convinced that that's a better vet than the person who works at the shelter and who just pours their heart into what they're doing, you know, and doesn't make that money. That's a better vet.

12:02It's just a different situation and scenario and different priorities and different desires. And so anyway, I'm intentionally muddying the waters here because I think that that's really important to have that nuance when we start to talk about money and asking for raises. Yeah, well, I think you called it out beautifully because even in the old mailbag, they said that they kind of alluded to the fact that the reason they were getting resentful is because they even have to ask in the first place. And it sounds like we have a manager who maybe is a high performer and maybe has gotten raises without having to ever advocate for themselves.

12:34Yeah. And so a lot of this resentment might be coming from the fact that, yeah, you do have to. And also, just because your practice owner has not acknowledged the work that you're doing doesn't mean that they don't see the value in you. just because they haven't done it. So I do like that you're separating those. It's like, what is your value versus what is the reality of the practice? And I think that this person has a good handle on the reality of the practice. They know that they're getting paid within the three to 5 % benchmark. They know that they've shut down services. So revenue doesn't look great.

13:04And they do know that the economy is hard. They flat out said they've heard things about clinics slowing down and people not spending as much money. And so they see this fear in their practice owner. And so I think that you're so right. Two things can exist here, right? We can be very valuable and the practice might not have enough money to pay you what you believe you are worth. Right. And so, well, this is tough. Exactly. Well, it is super tough. And like, there's all these things are tied together too. And again, we're going to get around to asking for more money. Like we're definitely going to do that.

13:35But I think, you know, being empathetic, there's a human side for the practice owner too, of like, it's hard when you've given people raises in the past. And then you look around and because you made the decision to close down boarding and stuff, the money is down and you're like, I can't afford this. And then it's awkward to say to people, Hey, we can't afford to give you this raise this year. I'm really sorry. And again, I think having that conversation is better than not having that conversation. I've messed this up myself a number of times of like, I don't like to tell people bad news. And you kind of have this idea of like, maybe they won't notice like they're going to notice they're going to notice but you know what i mean but but again just like a lot of people tie like their self-worth to their salary a lot of practice owners tie their self-worth to their revenue or their ability to give people raises and so there's just this deep like primordial you know fear fighter flight self-identity thing going on with lots of different people.

14:41And it's just, it's just that, that kind of, that kind of weird reality of all of it. And the other part too, is it's, it's hard when you own the business too, where you say, well, I want to be fair to everybody. And so if I give this person a raise, is there a fairness thing that I really need to give everybody else a raise? And so even you say, Hey, well, it's not a big deal to give me a raise. It's like, yeah, there's, there's kind of every, everybody else is sort of tied in. And so again, that doesn't change what you need and your responsibility, not, not your, your right, but your responsibility to advocate for yourself and your family, you know, and say, this is, this is what I need.

15:23Just like you can be the most amazing manager in the world. And there's a recession and your practice is less profitable than it was in the past. Like that can happen. Yeah. Just on the exact same way, the practice that generates revenue can be down in profitability. And also your family needs more money because of inflation, because of prices going, because it changes in your circumstances. Like if you, if you're, you know, you and your partner both have jobs and your partner loses their job in an economic downturn, the fact that the business you work for is, you know, is struggling, that doesn't invalidate the fact that you are now in a hard place.

16:09And I think that most people who own practices, again, I see the good in people. I suspect that they want to help you if they can. It's just a matter of, first of all, they need to know what's going on. They need to know why you're asking for these things. You know what I mean? And again, some people say, well, you don't need to know. I would say, I don't know. I really think, I think, and we're talking specifically about a small business here. And, you know, I think always starting with why, and we can get into more access stuff. But I think that communicating what's your position and what's going on with you, I think that's just as valid as the practice owner or the regional director or whatever saying, this is what's going on with our business.

16:51I'll say, great. You tell me what's going on in the business. I'll tell you what's going on with me and my family. And let's see how we can try to help each other and sort of approach it that way in this sort of a positive empathetic experience. I think that that can definitely work. Yeah. I love the way that you talked about the practice owner because I think it's so true. I never really thought about the fact that the practice owner might feel some type of way around not being able to provide. It reminds me of like every time Mother's Day comes around, I'm like, boy, my mother deserves the world.

17:20But all I've got is a hundred bucks in my bank account to be able to give her gifts. So like it's at some point, That's kind of what this practice owner might be feeling like this is like you might be Super valuable and he sees that he recognizes that you're growing but he might still Not be able to provide what he wants and therefore he's avoiding the conversation It's not because he doesn't see your value It's because he knows that you know, he that you deserve more and he just can't provide it for you right now I I talked to a vet practice owner today Who was beating herself up because she can't provide health insurance?

17:53for her people. And that's been a way for a lot of people for a long time. But she had someone who was been full-time and they went to part-time and she said, I feel awful, but I can't. Our handbook clearly states that we cannot have part-time people. You have to be full-time to be on our health insurance. And she's like, that's all that I can afford. I can't. These are the rules. And it's not because I'm trying to punish this person. We just can't do it. And I can see sort of the guilt in her, you know, in her eyes that she said this. And it was one of those just really horrible things, as I can tell you.

18:30I know this person would like to pay her stuff better. I know that she would want them to have health insurance. Like, I have no doubt at all. It's not a matter of just, you know, wanting versus pocketing those big dollars for themselves. You know, it's really trying hard. And I think, again, I want people to do what they need to do for their families and themselves. And also, I think you can do that and also recognize that running a small business today is very hard. It's harder than it's ever been in the past. And again, that's not invalidating one side or the other, but it's saying two things can both be true at the same time.

19:12And knowing that, let's talk about what's possible. And I think that's where things get positive. Well, I think at the end of the day, too, we can look at the situation and acknowledge that like three years is a long time, right? Three years to not get a raise. I think it's perfectly fair. So to the person that submitted in this mailbag, if you're feeling like any type of, you know, conflict around whether it should or shouldn't, some of our redundancy is going to come from the fact that you're not actually sharing how you feel. And the fact that, you know, because time blindness is a real thing, right?

19:43How many times do I remind you that I've been working for you for four years now? Every day. I want to make sure you know, you know, because the time blindness is real. So this person, like the practice owner, might truly think it's only been like a year and a half since you got your last raise, not realizing it has actually been three years. but because we're not having a conversation, whether it be because we're scared or because, you know, we have these preconceived notions of why we're not getting a raise, the bottom line is you're not having the conversation and it is not kind for you to stay in this place of resentment and, you know, hurt without at least trying to have the conversation.

20:21So I do think you should have a conversation. Just know that this is where, obviously, the headspace of the practice owner is. And you're right. Like, we tell ourselves stories. And like, that's the, that's the, that's one of the things I want to say to people too, is it's amazing how many people tell themselves stories and they're like, well, I'm not getting erased because he doesn't think that I work hard or he doesn't like me because of whatever. And I'm like, do you know that? Or are you making assumptions about why this isn't happening? And it's just, it's such a toxic headspace. It's so understandable.

20:50understandable. But you know, the best advice is like, well, have you talked to him? Like, well, no, no, no, I haven't. Okay. Well, you know, I would try not to tell myself too many stories. I just, I don't see a lot of value in that. That, you're making such a great point, Andy. Do you want to get into some action steps? Maybe we'll take a break right now. Yeah, let's take a break. Let's sort of try to organize these into some steps. Yeah, I think that sounds good. The Uncharted Veterinary Conference Medical Director Summit is coming up. It is happening on September 15, 2026. It is a virtual event.

21:25It is meant to minimize your time off the floor if you're a medical director and maximize your skill growth and your ability to implement what you're learning into your practices. I love to be a supporter of medical directors. I've gotten to work with medical directors all over the world, and I am thrilled to be hosting this year's medical director summit. Registration is open right now. $199 to register and you can use the code medical to get 20 % off on your registration. That is medical as your promo code. I would love to see you there. I love this event. That's September 15th. Medical directors head over to unchartedvet.com to get signed up today.

22:07All right. We talked a lot about kind of the headspace around what the person that's asking for the raise might be feeling like and then the practice owner themselves but at what point is compensation a legit reason to explore other opportunities because we didn't really touch on that when you're when your needs are not being met like when like when your needs are not being met then that's that's the time you know i think everybody should take these things a little bit less personally. And you're not wrong to say, hey, the world is getting more expensive and I need to earn X amount of dollars in order to be able to support my family, in order to be able to have a standard of living that is sustainable to me.

22:55If you look around and you're making the salary that you're making and you're like, I'm making this now, I can't keep this up for six more months or I can't keep this up for one year if I'm making like if I'm living like this a year from now that's a problem that's deeply depressing to me yeah then I would say look you're you need to make a change like you owe it to yourself it's not that doesn't mean your boss is a villain it doesn't mean that they you know that they can or should magically produce the money that you need like it's not it's not a personal attack about them, but it's about you being honest about what you need.

23:32So yeah, like what, like, what do you need? I, the way I think about it, I think about resentment as, as a driver of a lot of things. And so what do you need to not feel resentful? Like, what do you feel like? What do you need to feel like your, like your needs are met and you can make it and you're not going to show up every day and go, crap, why am I here for what I'm getting paid? Because if you go into work every day and go, what the heck am I doing here? That's not good for you. It's not good for them. You should go find something else. And so you have to be honest about what that is. I think from an action step standpoint, I think you put your finger right on it.

24:14The first thing is know what you need. It's a weak position to come in and say, I need more, just more. I don't know what more is. I don't know why I need more. I need more because I, you know, I just, I feel like I need a pat on the back. I feel like for, I I'm worth more, just, just more. Let me know what more is. I would say, you know, if, if you're doing annual raises and things like that, I don't think you have to think too much about it, but if it's been three years and you're going to go have this conversation, the first thing I would say is what are you trying to accomplish? In fact, I'd call out, you know, our, our safe acronym here.

24:52This is just before you go and talk to anybody about a raise or anything, make sure that you're safe. So S is, can you sit next to this person and smile at them? If you just found out that the office manager got a raise a month ago and you didn't get one and you are ready to take heads. Now is not the time to go talk about this. Like you don't, You do not want this to be an emotional conversation. And so can you sit next to this person? Can you smile at them? Can you be curious about what's going on and what might be possible? So that's S. A is assume good intent. Are you assuming that the practice is trying their best?

25:33They want to take care of people. They're juggling a lot. You know that the revenue is down this year. Like assuming good intent, assume that they're doing their best and they're just juggling balls. and again everybody's a human being and we tend to focus on problems and if you're just getting your job done and and you're reliable unfortunately those those times sometimes you can get kind of forgotten and like it's not it's not good it shouldn't be that way but it can kind of happen but it's not because people are trying to slay you because they don't think that you're worth the money or anything like that just assume that they're doing their best and they're trying hard f is have they been set up to fail has this person been set up to fail are there things that they don't know.

26:11Are there things that they should be made aware of? I think the fact that I haven't gotten a raise in three years is significant. I think the fact that, you know, the cost of living has gone up three to 5 % per year. I think the fact that, you know, my kids are now going to daycare or the cost of daycare keeps going up every year and I'm getting, you know, there's a pressure on me to be able to pay for this. Like, how has this person been set up to fail? What do they not know? And the last thing is the end result is what do you want? What is success for you? Is that a dollar value? Could that be other things?

26:47Could you be happy if you had more flexibility in your schedule? And again, a lot of this is about trying to make something that works. So you go talk to your independent practice owner and their revenue is down. They don't have secret money probably. Maybe they're good savers. Maybe they've still got enough to do some things. but probably money is going to be hard for them. Would you be okay if you didn't have to work on Saturday? Like, would that be a thing that would have value to you that doesn't necessarily cost them monetarily? Like, can we talk about things like that? Have you thought about some things like that?

27:23Because if you go in and you're like, I need more dollars. And they're like, we do not have more dollars. That's a hard stop. And I don't know how you reconcile those two things. But anyway, that kind of overall idea. And I would follow up sort of the safe approach with, you know, you'll start with why. And it's like, you know, people could say, well, you don't need to justify your ask. And I would say, well, you don't need to justify it. But I think helping people kind of understand that you're not just saying, I would like to have more dollars because I like more dollars. Nothing's anything wrong with that.

27:58But saying things like, my kid's daycare is more expensive. You know, my partner is working less hours. The cost of my, you know, my rent is going up. You could even be, it could be even as little as the cost of the grocery store is significantly higher and like, it's just tight. yeah and you know and this is something that i need i think i think humanizing yourself and not making it about i've been here longer i deserve more money i think that speaking to people human to human about about your needs i have always found that to be more successful and build stronger relationships and my goal is not i've seen a lot of people do this my goal is not to ask for a raise use brass knuckle tactics and then and then get the raise and have and have the boss be resentful of me and think that i'm that i'm nasty and again you can go too far either way you can definitely be the the person who's too nice he gets walked on you can also be the person who's just absolutely unyielding fierce to the point that you know the practice owner feels resentful i was about to say then the resentment just transfers right over right yeah exactly right and so again like there's there's nuance here but but you can you can get it wrong in both ways but i mean getting the the point i think some people get sucked up into into the idea of the negotiation and like look for some people in negotiation is a one-time thing like when we book an uncharted conference and i go to the hotel and i'm like we're gonna have a conference here and they go great and they say you need to spend a minimum of$75 ,000 on catering.

29:44I'm never going to see these people again. Like I can dig in and go, no, I'm not. And I can negotiate really hard because this is a one-time transaction where you're going to do this conference or we're not going to do the conference. And I'm not going to see them again. However, when I go home and I negotiate with my wife, I don't want to win in negotiations with my wife because I have to continue to live with her. And if I, if I, you know, if I, you know, bend her to my iron will, it's not going to go well for me because she's not going to be happy. And I'm going to get the silent treatment.

30:20I'm going to sleep on the couch. And I don't, I don't like that. And so I want to be able to advocate for myself and also to still have a good relationship on the other side. And I've seen people, you know, absolutely burn it down to make, you know, to make an extra, you know, small amount of money in one year. And you go, I didn't really affect you very positively. But boy, it closed a lot of doors for you. And it made frosty, you know, interactions for a long time. And I don't know if that was worth it. Well, and the expectation increases, right? So like the practice owner say, if he does give you a substantial raise, he's going to expect more out of you because I'm spending more out of you.

30:58So now I better see some growth in my revenue because it's like I increased what I was giving you. So I think that that's. Wait, you see that a lot. Yeah. Oh, I think you're right. But you see that a lot with veterinarians. We'll switch over to that real fast. Yeah. Maria, I can't tell you how many vets I have seen who have come in and negotiated really hard. Yep. And they got what they wanted. And that was the end of them at the practice, right? They didn't get let go until later on. But they successfully negotiated a salary up to the point that the practice owner was resentful. and they weren't producing revenue that came anywhere close to justifying that.

31:32And that was kind of the end of relationship. It was like, hey, look, we did this. It was a mistake. This has not worked out. You have not produced anything close to justifying this. And the vet will say, well, I'm not going back. And then that's the end of that relationship and the vet's out of the job. And so I don't know. It's really about what you want. To me, you want to try to balance those things. Yeah. that's exactly the example i was thinking of when i when i was talking about you know when we negotiate those things the other thing that i see people do that i think sometimes bites them is that they like well for when you called it out you said when your needs aren't being met that's when we need to have the conversation right like not when we're trying to compare our salary when my friend who's also a practice manager told me that she makes this i'm making this and now i'm getting resentful because i'm comparing that that would not be the best one oftentimes though what I do see people make the mistake here is they will almost romanticize what's on the other side or like dream up of like oh well if I leave my practice I can go get get paid this much over here and then they bring that into the conversation and I'm just like yeah that's still hypothetical unless you have a job offer that sells that they are offering you blank amount of money and that you can start in two weeks there's nothing that says you're gonna get that job and so for your boss that's still technically a hypothetical and comes off more as a threat of like if you don't pay me i'm gonna start looking elsewhere and that's very might well where where it goes but just know that that that does come off as a threat and your practice owner is going to remember that you have one foot out the door because because of pay right and it's like that's going to be hanging over over both of you for a long time and so i think that can create a lot of emotions and a lot of resentment from both sides then at that point oh yeah i think you're right i've got i've got that on my list is don't don't threaten like never threaten and a lot of people are like well if i don't get this then i'm gonna leave like i i think that that i think that builds a lot of resentment it builds a lot of fear i now that doesn't mean as i said before clear as kind and so if you're going to leave unless you're able to you know to get a raise i don't think hiding that is, I don't think hiding that is, is a good idea, right?

33:44Like if you came to me and said, Hey, it's been three years and I need a raise and, you know, cause things are tight. I would say, you know, let me, let me see what, see what I can do and let's work on this. And, you know, and I'll try to work. If you said, look, I'm going to be honest with you. If I don't make$5 ,000 more, you know, by the end of this year, I'm not going to be able to keep this job. I'm going to have to go find something else. That's going to give that to me. And I really like it here. And I don't want to leave, but I want to be transparent with you about what my needs are. That is setting that expectation level, right?

34:16That's communicating clearly how seriously we are, but hopefully it doesn't sound like a threat and I'm not trying to make it a threat. This is sharing information. The other person needs to understand what I'm asking kind of where I am and they can share information back with me about what they're able to do and what they're not. But, but there is a way to communicate information without, you know, without threatening. So I think that that's important. I want to jump back to your grass is greener comment too. I think that, again, this kind of goes back to that tying your identity to self-worth.

34:48I think in some ways, people often tie quality of job to salary directly. And I have not found that to be true in my life. I mean, sure, it can be, you know, maybe the best job in the world for you is also the job that pays you the most money. Like that can happen. I think for a lot of people, that's not true. A lot of people, they want to find a good paying job that also has a culture that works for them, where they feel appreciated, where they feel like they have the level of autonomy that they're excited about, where they practice the type of medicine they want to practice, where they work with clients that they resonate with and feel a strong desire to support and to serve.

35:34And I think there's a lot of that. There's a time off policy that factors into that. There are benefits. And one of the sad things I see in small business sometimes is how much emphasis people will put on what is the salary. And they don't pay any attention to, do you get health insurance? Do you have a 401k? Does the company contribute to that 401k? Do they do stuff that's positive and nice for the staff. All of these things kind of go into your life and they all cost money. But I've seen a lot of people who are like, those people will pay me the most money. I'm going there. And you get there and you realize they're paying you the most money, one, because they've invested in nothing.

36:18Everything is generate revenue and then pay it out in salaries. And then number two is they pay you the most money because they're all about generating that money. And they expect you to be all about generating that money. And it's just kind of interesting. I've seen people over time who will say, I only want the highest paying job. And then they take that job and they get there and they go, I can't believe that everybody here is on dollars and revenue. And I'm like, where did you think? Where did you think that salary came from? Like, like, that's where, that's where that came from. And again, it's not that, that small business owners are holding out on you.

36:53It's just that like, it's all tied together and it's all kind of got to, got to make sense. And so anyway, I don't know. I'll get off my soapbox about that. It's easy to say later in your career, but I do think that's important. Well, I think you need to touch on something really important, actually, that I do want to talk about. And it's the revenue piece. That's surprising and wonderful. I'm glad to hear. Not to cut you off, but there is something I want to touch on before. So one of the things, I remember being a receptionist at a veterinary clinic, and I genuinely thought, wow, I love my job.

37:22I love helping people. I love helping animals. I would work here forever if it just paid me about three times what it's paying me. And I remember having that thought and being like, well, oh, man. But in order to do that, I guess the clinic has to make three times what it's making. So I better get to work. Yeah. Right. So that is genuinely the mentality I have. And I think I've told you that before with Uncharted as well. Right. And so I do. I do believe in that. And as we're talking about as we're talking about asking for raises and negotiating these things, you should know the contributions that you brought into the practice in these past three years.

37:54I think that like if you don't know, because this person in the mailbag, they said that they closed down two departments. So their revenue wasn't exactly where they want it to be. What did you do within those three years that would mean an increase in revenue in the coming years? Like, how would you justify to the practice owner that investing in you another$10 ,000 means an investment that might bring in the practice more money? And so when it comes to this, I think it's really important to know your metrics. Like as a practice manager, you are responsible for the viability of the of the business.

38:25So that doesn't mean like you're you're responsible for some of the revenue, some of the profit, but also some of the metrics that maybe are not as easily found. So, for example, I'm coaching a practice manager right now who we started coaching with like about four or five months ago. And when he first started with me, he was very much like dealing with a lot of call outs, a lot like their medical director was a little rougher around the edges. And so it took a lot of hard conversations and training, some organization. And now looking at it, you know, when we were talking this week, he was like, you know, I actually don't have a lot of issues, but I have noticed people are and I've noticed people aren't calling in as much.

39:02And I'm like, you know, that's a sign of the work you're doing towards your culture, right? Like that, that isn't much if you can attach to your culture is the fact that people are not calling in as much. and so for this practice manager like even if you don't have the metrics and the revenue do you have the do you have the ability to show where you've helped grow the practice even if it isn't a culture whether it's engagement surveys less calling in whether it's the piece that you have whether it's that retention like the fact that your people have stayed on longer than before you started like all of these things are important to the practice to the viability of the practice and if you can't present them and show them and share them you're not going to be able to advocate for yourself as well.

39:42So I think that bringing those things to the table is important. I love that. You are so spot on. I'm going to add to that. There's actually two pieces to this, I think. There's the first piece which you laid on, which is being able to show the return on investment you have brought. You are an investment and trying to say, hey, this is what I brought to the table. This is the work I've done. This is the impact that I have made. I think that's absolutely important. The other side is, and these all sort of tied together. I think people in vet medicine as a general rule, and I've worked with thousands of them, they are God awful at talking about themselves in a positive way.

40:21They are so bad. And like, hey, corporate technicians, managers, medical directors, associate veterinarians, I'm really talking to you. because when you sit down for your evaluations, when you were brought in to talk about your development goal, all of those sorts of things, this is your chance to advocate for yourself, especially, again, we've been talking about independent practice here, but especially in larger practices. The case for you to get a raise is going to have to go up the chain, which means that your boss is probably going to have to advocate to their boss for you to be able to get what you're asking for.

40:59What have you done? to make that ask as easy as possible. And it's things that we often don't even think about. Have you mentored a new hire? Have you been, did you make the training program that we're using? Have you been employee of the month at your practice? Have you, you know, like, I don't know, like, have you done a stretch assignment? Have you gone to another practice to help cover there when they needed help? Any of those sorts of things. But the stuff, have you led staff meetings have you are you mentoring a recent graduate that is at your practice are you helping with the onboarding are you coming to the management meetings are you contributing to the social media you know account by sharing photos are you writing for the blog or the newsletter did you go to the to the public outreach you know to the community fair did you walk in the parade for the you know for the for the the practice did you do the fun run with the t-shirts you're like Andy all that stuff is kind of superfluous no it's not it is an indication that you are invested that you are involved and it's something that you can point to and say I did that I did that I did that I've done this five times I've been very involved in this I'm doing this other thing and it's not about I did these things show me the money but it is about saying I think it's about building a case for yourself to say I am invested I am engaged engaged i am involved i want to be here you want to retain me and i think a lot of times people show up and they have done great work and they have worked hard and they have been a leader whether they have a title or whether they don't have a title or they have gone the extra mile or they have been a team player and that people are they're bad at saying i am a team player and i will show you how and i will list for you the things i have done to be a team player i don't want to live in that headspace.

42:57I'm not trying to live a transactional life. And also that's how the game is played. And it is. And I think a lot of people struggle. They're like, oh my gosh, it seems like bragging. And again, I get it. I totally get it. But it's important to me that you get taken care of. Again, I say this as a business owner who loves his employees and tries really hard. I don't remember what everybody, you know, what everybody does all the time. and you know it's especially if i had a boss that i had to go to and you and maria comes to me and says hey i you know things are getting more expensive i need a raise i would say that you you're amazing you should have a raise and i and then i have to turn to my boss and say we should give me maria raise and he would say why and i have to make that presentation and it's like part of this ask is thinking strategically now this is different when you're presenting right to the decision maker but not a whole lot i think that you should be able part of the why why do I need this?

43:55And also, why should you support me? Here's why you might like to retain me. And think about that. And again, it's kind of silly, but it's almost like, you know, using corporate, using corporate language, you know, like it's not, you know, I work with a new grad every day. It's like, I participated in a comprehensive onboarding and mentorship program in which, you know, we took a brand new graduate into a thriving, productive veterinarian in our practice and also building team rapport as we integrated a new veterinarian. And again, it's, but it is, it sounds ridiculous and it is ridiculous, but it's also the world that we live in of being able to say in corporate language, tell me what you did.

44:46There's a joke that I saw, you know recently about someone who's like walk the dog and they translated that language to linkedin speak it was like led initiative to you know expand boundaries of the organization and you know streamlined waste management protocols relationship building with the neighbors and networking opportunities you know in the community and it was it was that and it's it's it but it is kind of that like this is your opportunity to advocate for yourself to kind of do a sales job for yourself. And I think, I think we all owe it to ourselves to put the best foot forward and to lean forward and to try to make that case for ourselves.

45:25And then it's, it's really, it's about asking them, Hey, it's been three years. This is what's going on with me. This is kind of what I've, what I feel like I've kind of brought to the table. Yeah. I know that the revenue of the practice is down. I hate to have to ask, however, you know, this is sort of the spot that I'm kind to be in, do you think it would be feasible? Can we talk about, you know, my compensation package? And we really do that. Also, when you bring it up, you don't spring it on the person. This is my last, this is my last point. This should not be a surprise. You shouldn't knock on the door and be like, hey boss, can we sit down and have this conversation now?

46:05It's like, hey, can I set up a time? I'd like to talk to you about, you know, sort of compensation packages, kind of kind of where we are when you know the time is coming up and i would like to i'd like to kind of review kind of where we're at would you be open to that and because what's going to happen is they're going to want to do some some work and some research and and like you might walk in and they're like you know i had no idea it had been three years since you know since you got right you you you never know but you're not going to surprise the person and get a positive answer in my experience the worst because you might surprise them and get a negative answer which they would not have given you had they had time to think for a little bit and consider that hey you're going to want to have this meeting and so anyway in my experience you know i think you give people heads up that time that answers the other question i had for you which is basically how do we keep this a business conversation versus an emotional one and i think you already answered that beautifully it's a lot of that operational language it's a lot of bringing in those numbers and that data and it's a lot of what you just mentioned is don't make it a surprise take care of your partner, you know, make it totally make it that conversation.

47:09And so I said one last question is, would you have time this week to review my compensation? Yeah, no, going to the beach with the family. Thanks everyone for tuning in. You're the best Maria. Thank you so much. And that's it. That's what we got. Thank you all so much for joining us. I had a lot of fun with this one. Obviously, I get to tease Andy a little bit about raises because he is my boss. And in general, I think it's really important that we do advocate for ourselves, that we do, you know, show our value and we show what we bring to the table in a way that is respectful, that really does build the relationship instead of destroy it.

47:48And so hopefully you got something out of this episode to help you do that. And if you really enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave us a comment or a review where you listen to your podcast, y 'all. It really does mean a lot to us. As I've stated before, sometimes it feels like we're just talking into the void and it's only when you comment or when you give us reviews that we realize, no, there are real people listening to us right now. So let us know by reviewing us on your favorite platform or leaving us a comment wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks, and we'll catch you next time.

48:18The Uncharted Veterinary Conference Medical Director Summit is coming up. It is happening on September 15th, 2026. It is a virtual event. It is meant to minimize your time off the floor. if you're a medical director and maximize your skill growth and your ability to implement what you're learning into your practices. I love to be a supporter of medical directors. I've gotten to work with medical directors all over the world and I am thrilled to be hosting this year's medical director summit. Registration is open right now$199 to register and you can use the code medical to get 20 % off on your registration.

48:57That is medical as your promo code. I would love to see you there. I love this event. That's September 15th, medical directors head over to unchartedvet.com to get signed up today.