419 - I'm a Veterinary Team Lead, Where Do I Go From Here?

0:00Ten years ago, I thought people came to conferences for information. I was wrong. You can Google almost any answer in 30 seconds while hiding in a supply closet. What you can't Google is skill. Skill is having hard conversation when you're exhausted, short-staffed, and the person across from you is upset. And that only comes from practicing with people who will tell you the truth when you miss. That's what Uncharted is. On Friday, January 15th in Orlando, the day before VMX opens, we're celebrating 10 years with a one-day conference built around leaders practicing hard things together. You'll get Dr.

0:37Peter Weinstein, the Uncharted team, and about a dozen mic drop talks from people in the community, people you know like Dr. Phil Richmond and Dr. Caitlin DeWild. I'm not going to tell you it'll be easy because it won't. But if you want to do the work alongside people who get it, come and join us. details are at unchartedvet.com. Register today. Don't miss your chance. Welcome back to another episode of the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast. I am your host, Maria Parita, and I am very happy to be bringing you today's episode because I got to sit down and talk with Elizabeth Stark. If you have never talked to or heard of or known of Elizabeth Stark, you are in for a treat.

1:19She is incredibly funny. I genuinely love talking to her. and I brought her a very specific mailbag. The reason why is I've gotten to work with her directly as a speaker for some of these events that we've been doing. And she's actually speaking at Team Lead Summit on October 13th. She is doing a workshop around veterinary team leadership and I love the things that she has to say. I love where she has taken her career, which is exactly why I thought of her for this particular mailbag. We have somebody who is currently in a team lead position. it's all like they're the veterinary technician lead and they are thinking about becoming a practice manager they're seeing this as like the next step they're wanting the pay increase but they're just not sure if they truly want the responsibility that comes with it a lot of the admin work they don't think that is for them and so we kind of just jump in this mailbag and go over our own careers our own journeys we talk a lot about how to divide from what you love to do what you're good at, and then what you definitely don't want to do.

2:21And in general, how do you even get started building a career, you know, laterally versus vertically. So if this sounds like it resonates with you, go ahead and saddle up, tune in, and let's get into this episode. And now the Uncharted podcast. You show up for pets every day. It's because care is your calling and it's ours too. We know it's what drives you to make a difference in the health and wellbeing of every pet. That's because at Zoetis, hundreds of veterinarians are part of our team too, working with you to provide science-backed medicines, technology, and practical support to help elevate your standard of care.

3:04Learn more at careisyourcalling.com. All right, we are back with another episode of the Uncharted podcast, and I am super excited because I have Elizabeth Stark. I am super excited because I am such a big fan of yours. The first time that I met you was actually at NAVC Hive. You and I are both featured speakers for the NAVC Hive events, which are basically for practice managers and technicians only, which is one of my favorite parts about them. And one of the cool things about being a featured speaker is that you get to do the keynote with somebody else. And in this case, I got to do the keynote with you.

3:37And I have to say, I genuinely enjoyed working with you. I was nervous because I had not done a speaking engagement with anyone other than like from the Uncharted team, which obviously when you have the relationship and you have the connection, it's easy to work together. So I was kind of nervous. It's like, well, we'll have never met her. So I hope things are going to be. And boy, did you, were you such a professional the entire time? Like so organized, so easy to talk to. I mean, I could have talked to you, like our planning meetings were meant for 30 minutes, but I easily could have talked to you for like an entire hour.

4:07I swear. I'm just I love all the stuff you're doing. Why don't you tell us a little bit about you and kind of what you've been working on and where people can find you a little bit before we get started? Sure, Maria. And I have to say, first of all, thank you so much for having me. And I echo what you just said. I have had so much fun speaking with you. I have been absolutely honored to do the keynote at the Hive events with you. I think we've had such a great dynamic and touched on such amazing topics together it's really been wonderful to work with you so thank you so much and i remember getting the email and thinking oh my gosh i've got to look up maria who's maria oh my gosh she's really important she's name and being so nervous because we think oh you're so cute no when i feel like i doubt myself sometimes and i'll look around and think how did i get here as a professional with all these incredible people.

5:05And then there's another part of me that kicks in where it's like, are these people friendly? How are we going to work together? Are they going to like me because I'm a fixer and I'm a healer? And it is important to me if people are able to relate to me or I'm able to connect with other individuals. So it's been an absolute pleasure to work with you. And I'm glad that we've gotten to connect in so many different places, in so many different avenues of this profession, both through conferences, right, and Uncharted and the practice manager keynotes that we're giving. And then also through my business, VetRav Solutions, which moving from academia as a licensed technician into leadership and business and building programs.

5:58and you and I have had a lot of discussions on the gaps in the profession and what our generation of practice managers and technicians and leaders intend to do about it. Absolutely. And our discussions around that, first of all, is the main reason why I wanted to bring you on for this mailbag. So we have a really great mailbag that brings tears to my eyes in multiple ways and I'll get into that in just a moment. But part of that was because I have been so inspired by all of the work that you've done in veterinary medicine, both as an educator and as a technician, and then being able to advocate for our profession.

6:33I think you do such a beautiful job at that as well. And you're right. I think I've gotten the pleasure of seeing your sessions in person. You're also speaking at the Team Lead Summit coming up on October 13th, right? Why don't you tell us a little bit about that session? Because I think it kind of will relate a little bit to the mailbag that we got today. Sure. I am really, really excited about that. And I'm excited to talk about leadership and developing future leaders because every one of us has the ability to be a leader. It's not just by title. So my session is on that formal versus informal leadership and for team leaders to identify team members through a model of skill versus will, and then to move forward and coach team members on that model.

7:22So everything is individualized to understand what is the skill and how does my team member essentially feel about that skill and what resources do they need from me. So everybody can be developed in leadership. It's not just formal because every one of us are able to be informal leaders. And many people who are listening right now, I'm sure, are informal leaders and may not even know about it. Yeah. Well, I mean, I would think that at least every single veterinarian, right? Because in the exam room, you're an informal leader. You have to be asking your technician of things. You have to be asking your receptionist.

8:00And then even then so, I'm a big believer that our CSRs are leaders in the conversation, right? So they're leading the client oftentimes. Same with our technicians. They're leading each other on a regular basis. Sometimes they're having to manage up. And so I think I see so much of that in our discussions. And that's essentially the biggest reason why when I saw this mailbag, I was literally like, I have to talk to Elizabeth about this. Because I feel like your career has taken so many different moves and changes, which is something that I love to highlight. Like I love to highlight. Because oftentimes we look at the veterinary assistant role or the veterinary technician or even the veterinary receptionist role and people get to it and they're like, I don't know that I'm going to make a career out of this always.

8:42You know what I mean? We know veterinary technicians, especially they'll after about four years in clinic, they tend to leave and the veterinary clinic side and go into industry. And so overall, I'm just so passionate about the people that, you know, create a space for themselves in veterinary medicine. And I feel like I've seen you do that. So that's why I am so excited. Would you mind if I read the entire mailbag? It's kind of short, so I think we can do it. Yeah, that's fantastic. And I love the points that you're bringing up because that's my mission. That's what my business is about. That's what I've dedicated my career to is if you see a gap, if you see something that's needed, create that, be the solution.

9:19Just because it doesn't exist yet doesn't mean that every single one of us doesn't have the power to create it. Yes, I love it. All right, so this is the mailbag that we've got and I've got so many questions for you that I'm super excited. But we have somebody submitted in a mailbag. It's pretty short. They said, I'm currently a lead at my veterinary practice. I'm trying to figure out what comes next. Practice management seems like the obvious next step, but I'm not sure that that's actually what I want. What I love most is actually teaching and developing the team while still being hands-on with the patients.

9:50I do like leadership, but I'm less excited about moving into a role that it requires administration, customer service, and time away from the floor. I don't think I I want to be a practice manager, but it feels like that's my only step to making more money. At least that's what my clinic makes me feel like. How do I figure out whether practice management is right for me? What other career paths are there for somebody who wants to keep growing in leadership and education without giving up patient care? And so I got to tell you, so many of this brought tears to my eyes. First of all, I love me a person who can recognize something that's not for them, right?

10:27Like we talk about this too. You and I have talked about this. We have gotten, we are very passionate about this, where we think, or I don't know where this came from, that we feel like in this profession, the only way to move up is to become practice manager. But it's so different than the things we love and that we're good at in our current roles. Yeah. And that's exactly the other reason why it brought tears to my eyes is because in a not so nice way, it brought me tears in where I was like, boy, it makes me so sad when I see veterinary, you know, whether it's leaders or whether it's, you know, receptionist technicians, and they feel like the only step for them is practice management.

11:09Like that always makes me so sad because I think I've seen so much in veterinary medicine, so many roles outside of that area that I feel like it makes me sad because I think sometimes we have done that as a whole industry as a whole is make it seem like the only movement is upward movement and vertical movement instead of looking at things that could be lateral. And so I just, there's so many things about this mailbag that I genuinely loved. And also when I think about the veterinary leader that's putting, they didn't say exactly whether they're leading the technicians or the receptionist, but I'm assuming the technicians based on the way that they talked about developing and teaching, although it could very well be a receptionist one because they do a lot of development and teaching there.

11:50But the hands-on with the patients made me think like, Okay, it's probably a technician. You can still be hands-on as a CSR receptionist as well. But this person, you can hear the passion in what they're saying, that they want more in their career. But the only move they feel like to make money is the practice manager role. But you can hear the passion for education and development and the patience. Yeah. And that money piece is super crucial because I think that that's also what broke my heart, is that when I look at the industry as a whole, we oftentimes, like I have asked us at conference, raise your hand if you have worked for a toxic, quote unquote, toxic practice manager.

12:32And literally like 80 to 90 % of the people will raise their hand. Oh, I'm surprised it hasn't been a hundred. Well, I have had lectures where it's been a hundred. Usually. Good for them though, who haven't had that experience because this is another thing we talk about is the toxic cultures that we have. And it does have to do with leadership, your own leadership development. If you are not in a formal role, which formal role is your title. So if you are in a managerial role like practice manager, you now have a formal leadership role. An informal leadership role is where you don't have an official title, but people look to you for guidance because of what you stand for, what you know and who you are.

13:15So those formal leaders have such an influence on whether or not informal leaders can have that career path or how the leaders develop. Yeah. And how formal leaders develop, I think, is the key part there, because that's exactly what I was getting at is so many of us have this feeling like we've worked for a manager that might have been, quote unquote, toxic. Yet what we see in the industry is oftentimes an amazing, incredible, whether credentialed or not, veterinary assistant or veterinary technician who is clinically skilled to the max. and then they take a job like a practice manager role because of the money because they need the money but it's not where their hearts are at and they've not been developed and the skills are you know vastly different different yes and so here they are they end themselves in they end up being in a position where they don't love it they don't have the skills for it and so sure enough yeah that's going to lead to what's going to feel like toxic management but in reality it was a technician who might have not really been supported or prepared well enough in their role, given those resources.

14:22And so it's kind of like, I love that this person is asking that because that is one of the consequences that we get to is if your heart is not in leading and managing the people and learning and growing, because I do believe that even as a leader today, even as an educator in leadership, I still need to study leadership, right? I'm still studying it on a regular basis. And so if your heart is not in that, you have to be careful because there is a position, there's a possibility that you will not have the passion for it. And you could create unintentionally a toxic culture as you stated. And it's not always, I love that you bring that up.

14:56And you said so many incredible things there about supported, prepared. Are we preparing practice managers who are moving from that team leader role up into practice management? Are they fully prepared? Are they supported to take on that position? and what happens when we're in a role where we are unintentionally unhappy? You know, how does that pay it forward to the rest of the team? And what do you do, right? Because we all need to eat. We need to put food on the table. So I completely understand wanting to make more money. My whole career is this crazy adventure where I've just been trying to find sustainability for my family from a financial standpoint.

15:44So I understand that wanting to try something else, do something else, because you want stability, which is foundational for our own mental health. And if we don't have that, you know, what does that look like as leaders when we try to bring the rest of the team along with us? Yeah, absolutely. So from like a Headspace perspective, thinking about the person that submitted this mailbag, when you were in practice, Did you assume that management was a natural next step? And if so, when did you realize, because I feel like you are such a wonderful leader yourself. When did you realize, I like leadership, but I don't necessarily want to do this forever.

16:21I think I'm going to start my own path and create this company. And maybe even tell us the story of how that started. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's a similar story to many of us. Maybe not the details, but I got into general practice. I loved veterinary medicine I loved working on the floor I had a lot of I think I was more of an informal leader definitely stayed away from drama and just wanted to be part of the team that's something that means a lot to me so I want to be part of the team I made sure I stayed true to my values things like advocating for patients and speaking up when you could see that maybe some team members were uncomfortable to speak up and thinking, staying true to my values spoke up.

17:08And I think that resonated with my team. And it was from this day, looking back, my first team was my absolute favorite team to work with. Man, we were like a well-oiled machine and we weren't perfect, but we were together and didn't hold things against each other or point out flaws, things like that. So my whole career though, I felt like I'd been thrown in without a life raft. And that's something I learned very early on. there was almost no onboarding for any company or any organization that I worked for. And there was that ongoing narrative throughout my career of, oh, they left because they couldn't hack it.

17:45They left because they just couldn't handle this. And looking back, I think, did they really, could they not handle it? Or was that person really good at setting boundaries and saying, no, this isn't for me. No, it's not a healthy environment for me. And where I just kept sticking it out because I did not think that there was anything else out there for me or that I wasn't qualified for anything else. So as I kept going in my career through academia and corporate medicine, I made lots of connections with individuals that felt the same way that I had and in many ways had similar experiences of no onboarding.

18:29And I'll be real honest, Maria, I got angry about it. And I use that, though, to create things and fill the gaps because I don't want anybody else in this profession to have the same experience that I have. I don't want people to be thrown in without a life raft. I don't want people to not have support or be prepared. I want people to have resources that are attainable and that are affordable is the other thing. Because together, it's all of us in this profession that make it great. We need each other. I need the doctor. I need the receptionist. They need me. And we need to stick to things together.

19:11And I really, really believe that if we spread this message and work together, that every single person who sees a gap can come together and create bridges and create solutions for those things that we wish we had, like leadership training, communication training. I never had that. Yeah. I went trial by fire. That was a terrible way to learn. And it's crazy because now that I have like been in the role that's more industry, especially working at Uncharted, I see the resources that are out there. And I'm like, how do people like how did we in my clinic not realize that these were here? Right. So like Uncharted has a leadership essential certificate that we love, the conflict management certificate.

19:53We did do communications training in my practice, and that was super beneficial. But I guess what I'm getting at here is really just the fact that some of these resources, while they're starting to exist and they're starting to come out, it's up to us as practice managers to be able to know that they're there and use them. And I think for the mailbag submitter to know that, you know, when we're talking about this impact or this this ability to educate, you do have that as a practice manager. And I think that's something that I do want to point out for this person, because as much as they're they're battling like, oh, well, I really like the education portion and I really like developing the team while still being hands on with patients.

20:33There's still some of that as a practice manager. do. But the thing that I don't want to ignore is the fact that there is still some administrative work and there's still some customer service work and there's still time away from the floor. So this is a balance for sure when we think about the traditional path and then the non-traditional path. So at what point did you identify that education was the thing that you wanted to be a part of or wanted to be involved? Almost immediately. I'm going to be honest, almost immediately. I actually dropped out of college when I was 18 to be a music educator.

21:03and I always look back which is strange so I always thought what would my life be like if I had finished and I was a music educator even now I go and substitute in my district so I really like the special education classes I love working with non-verbal individuals and IEPs because I have a learning disability and that was something that impacted me not just going through school but also being in practice and sometimes having to say, I don't understand three or four times while somebody's like, well, I don't understand why you don't understand. And finding that courage to say, I'm so sorry, I'm a little bit slower, but once I've got it, I've got it.

21:49So I have a real passion for education. And I think educators are fixers and healers. For the mailbag, I would even think there is such a need in this profession right here now for on-site education. And there is retention behind on-site education. And I'll talk about that on the 13th as well. There are numbers. It's we associated, I should say good numbers, you know, that tell us, yes, education is working. So there is a need for coaches and trainers on the ground floor. And I think we need that more than we need recruitment. So I'm gonna, I'll just throw it out there. We need internal development.

22:34We need leadership communication. We need somebody to walk alongside us on the floor and say, I see that we need training in this. I see we need advocacy in this. I see that there is a development opportunity here. I'm going to create that. I will research it. I did a lot of research on my own before I got my degrees because I started teaching at, oh, I think I was like 30 with my associate's degree. And then I took a lot of initiative to find education. I went on the computer and looked up things that I didn't know. I did a lot of that myself because nobody was giving it to me, even if I asked for it.

23:18So if your leadership is not giving you education, obviously verbalize it. Let's talk about it. go find it yourself. Discover yourself through it. You can be empowered to do that and take control of your education to pass that on. And I think that that is such a smart way to to really look at the role and figure out and kind of dip your toes in a little bit and figure out, OK, I do like this part and I don't like this part. Right. Because we could create a story or a narrative about what administrative work really looks like, right? But administrative work also, at least for me as a practice manager, also included creating training programs, like making sure that I was putting together some sort of development plan for people, right?

24:04And so some of that admin work could actually be pretty fun if you can do the research into finding out what it is. Some of that research can come through some of the courses and education if they take that upon themselves, or even just in talking to practice managers. Because I think that one of the best things that somebody can do who's looking into these situations is deep self-work into figuring out, okay, what do I love? What don't I love? What is gonna bring me joy and what is not? But then also hearing the experience from other practice managers because they're gonna give you that first, you know, that firsthand experience of like, okay, I'm not gonna lie to you.

24:40This is what's really stressful about my job. Every time I'm like, every time I'm trying to do this, this is what it is, but this is what I love about my job. And so you're going to get a lot more of a real perspective on that and be able to tie them into kind of what the mailbag submitters like fears really are. Because I do think some of this could come from fear. Definitely. How much do you think that this mailbag submitter is telling themselves that, oh, I don't know that I'm going to like those things. But also how much of it do you think might be fear of like moving on to the next step? And it's the unknown, too.

25:10A lot of times we're comfortable in the fear that we know. I want to ask you something, Maria. How much have you discovered about yourself through new role that you didn't know before? Oh, man. I don't know that I'd be able to quantify it, but I do discover some. I will tell you every time I take a new role, I do discover something new about myself. Yeah, I do as well. And there were things that I discovered that I thought I was going to hate. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, I'm like this. This is cool. And all of a sudden, I'm like, wow, I'm good at this. And I think that was part of my love of being a technician.

25:47Just in general, when I went to school for it, I discovered things about myself just because I don't know if it's that nobody ever told me I could or maybe I told myself that I couldn't. And I didn't realize all these things I was capable of until I got in there. And I did it. And I was like, wow, I can do this. And it may not be my favorite thing to do, like certain tasks. But you know what? It's like, yeah, I can do that. Yeah. Get that like happiness of an accomplishment of look what I'm capable of. I love that. And similarly, I think it's also OK if you get into it and you decide I don't love this.

26:25Right. So you're familiar with my story because I think I shared this at one of the Hive events. But I was trained as a veterinary assistant. So I was cross-trained as a veterinary assistant. I probably drew blood all of like five times. Like I can count on one hand how many times I drew blood. And as I was training as a veterinary assistant and I did it for a couple of months, I remember hearing so much praise and hearing so many people being like, you're a natural, you're so good at this. Oh, can we have you back here full time? And normally like, I am a golden retriever. Give me all the praise.

26:57Give me all the compliments. I love it. But these compliments ended up hurting a little bit more because it was putting a pressure on something that like at the end of the day I was facing, I don't love being a veterinary assistant. Like I loved, you know, talking to people. I love being a client service representative. I loved helping with the social media. I didn't love being a veterinary assistant. And part of that definitely, like as I did some deep work is because I love the puzzle part of veterinary medicine. I love being able to look at the symptoms and try to figure out like, oh, we're gonna do this test and we're gonna do that test and then get the blood work results and be able to figure out like, I think I would love being a veterinarian.

27:36I don't love being a veterinary assistant. And so it was something where like a lot of that stressed me out because I wasn't in full control. I think that's probably something deeper work there, but there was, there was some of that. And there's some of the whole, like, I didn't understand the full mechanisms of some of the things that I was doing. And unless I can do like a deep dive and search, I just, it makes me more anxious. And so every day I was going home with this feeling like, I don't love it yet. I'm supposed to love it. Like everyone is saying like, wow, how cool that you're moving on to this role.

28:08Like you're helping the clinic so much. And I would go home and I would, I would sit there and I'd be like, what's wrong with me that I don't love this? Like, why can't I love being a veterinary assistant? This is the natural progression of things. You become a receptionist and you become a veterinary assistant. Like this is normal. I'm advancing in my career. Why does it feel like if I decline this role, I'm actually going backwards, right? And so I had to like really sit with that myself. And I'll tell you, it was probably one of the smartest things that I did do at the time because I did not become a veterinary assistant, but I stayed as a receptionist.

28:43I stayed helping with the social media. Both of those ended up turning into a marketing director role in the future. Eventually a practice management role, which I did not think that I was going to love. Also, I was piggy. at first I was helping out the practice owner for like two months, not taking the role. And then finally I said, all right, I'll take the role. I've been doing it for a couple of months. I might as well get paid for it. Turns out I did love that role and I wanted to do it. And I kept, you know, I love the education piece. And then that turned into working at Uncharted and public speaking and being an educator.

29:14And so that I wonder often had I had the same path, if I stuck with a veterinary assistant and maybe tried to try to love it, but then hated it and burnt out and leave the profession altogether. Right. Like there's so much of, of trying of like figuring yourself out. And sometimes it does take you stepping into that role and, and then being okay with, okay, I tried it and it turns out it's not for me and I don't like it. Like there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. And just some curiosity, how would you think you would have gotten out of it sooner if so many people weren't telling you to stick with it and that you were good at it do you think that had an impact because I definitely do okay I do like but and that could just be a me thing I'm I give into peer pressure like you could kidnap me if you if you told me enough oh there's puppies in the back of that van I guarantee by the third time you told me it was okay and there were puppies in the back of the van I'm like okay maybe I'll go take a look yes yeah no I'm the same way I like I I just know that if I didn't and and honestly like I at the time I I knew that they were all being super kind and they were pumping me up and it was good and I loved it but I do think that I struggled with it even more because I felt like I was letting the team down because I because they were praising me so much and I'm not gonna lie to you like I was pretty good at it you know what I mean like I was picking things up pretty quickly.

30:42And so I, that also kind of messed with my mind a little bit because I was just like, well, I'm good at this, but so I should like it. You know, when you're naturally good at something, you tend to like it. And there are people that are just naturally good at things and yeah, it's okay not to like some of those things. I think that's another message too. That's really important for, for us as a profession. And we know, right. That there are certain type of people that get into this profession. And we are sometimes a little bit more impressionable. For me, I'm such a deep empathetic. I'm an empath.

31:17I will just say I am very empathic, which is why I connect with my patients. But as an empath, I also connect with people and I want to make people proud and make people feel secure and happy. So people's opinions do impact me and impact how I behave. So I think a lot of times too, confidence, our own confidence and emotional intelligence. It's good that you had enough, you know, self-awareness and confidence to say, this is not for me. This is, this is not right for me. Because we can know something, but then taking action on it is a whole nother thing to step up and say, you know, I, or maybe else step down from this because it's not for me.

32:04Yeah, I think it does take it takes some self work to discover that, for sure, especially like trying to sparse away or separate like what you're good at from what you actually want to spend your time doing. How would you say that you separate those two? Like, how do you separate like the things that I'm naturally good at versus the things that I want to be doing? That's a really interesting question. In our profession, you know, we're a jack of all trades, right? We are expected to wear so many different hats. And I put a lot of pressure on myself and a lot of different environments to be perfect or to be the best at something.

32:43And then at some point, I just kind of realized, and I say this, and I say this with love for myself, that I am okay at the things that I do. I am a master of nothing. I am a student of everything. So I continue to learn. I don't want to be the best at everything, right? I just don't. Because once you're the best, you stop learning, I would think, or where do you go from there? And I want people to know. So I'm a good technician. I will say that. I think I'm a good leader, I think. So, and you can think these positive things about yourself and that's good. But I want people to know you don't have to be the best at something to lead, to make a move, to step up, to do something great in this profession.

33:32And that's kind of where I'm at. And I'm kind of like your average joe, your average best. I'm just passionate. and I've stepped out of my comfort zone for wanting people to not have the same negative experience that I've had. And I've done this along with other people, with the community. So stepping out of your comfort zone and finding your people, I think are really important. But I want people to know that you don't have to be a VTS necessarily. You don't have to be the best at something to make change or make a difference in the lives of the people around you and the patients around you. If you have a voice, you can speak up.

34:15It's just sometimes you have to be brave and step out of your comfort zone. And if you're like me, I do get scared. Find the people around you that will be like, it's okay, I've got you. Find the people that make you feel 10 feet tall when you feel 10 inches. Because Because I think we've all been in a place in our lives one way or another where we feel like we're, hey, baby, right? And that's part of being human. Yeah. But when you can surround yourself, Maria, you're one of them, with these people that lift you up and make you feel like you can fly, that's community. That's being able to make a difference.

34:57I love so much of that simply because when I looked back at it after you started talking about you know the people that give you the confidence I will say my family was very important during that time I remember talking to my mom a lot about you know like I don't know about this and she would tell me a lot well you got to stay true to your heart I know it makes sense because you love animals so it makes sense that you would love it so yes your community is super important I I think they know you, they'll lift you up, they'll share their experiences with you. And I just love that that's a good way to think about this.

35:31Is there anything else from a Headspace perspective before we get into some action steps here for this mailbag person that you wanna share? If you don't feel like you have community, reach out. There's so many organizations, there's so many different platforms to find support and it's okay to reach outside of your four walls and I would even encourage it. I love that. Because, well, when we're inside the four walls, sometimes that's our world. That's what we see and what we know. But if you can go outside and see what other people are seeing or get advice from other people and formulate that community, I think there's big steps and growth there to find other people to support you.

36:14That's what conferences are for, right? Yeah. That's what networking is for. And the resources are out there. Find the resources. I think the mailbag, the person who put that in has done a lot of work. It's great that they seem to have some wonderful self-awareness and a direction. I would say step outside your comfort zone. Maybe ask for some additional responsibilities to step your toe in the water to discover something about yourself. and reach outside of your four walls for a community to learn more about the role and hopefully about yourself. Excellent. I totally agree. I think that there's a lot that I want to cover from an Action Steps perspective.

36:58So if it's okay with you, let's take a break right here and then we'll jump into some Action Steps. Sound good? Sounds great. You believe that Uncharted is turning 10? That's right. Uncharted Ben-Hari Conference is celebrating 10 years and you're going to want to be there. It is happening on January 15, 2027, and registration is open right now. UnchartedVet.com. Hope to see you there. Do you want to get into some extra steps out? Yeah, that would be fantastic. Faith without works is dead. So you can believe all you want. You can know all the things that you want to do, but without taking action, without moving forward, stepping out of your comfort zone, you're going to stay where you are.

37:37It's amazing if you can actually identify steps, But all of that is worth nothing unless you go outside of your comfort zone and actually take those steps. One of the things I have to get into this really quick. So one of the things that I've always said is there is a really big difference between this is hard and I can't. And I think a lot of times those get confused. It was hard to go back to school in my 40s. I like to think I'm 29 again, but it's difficult to do certain things. But that doesn't mean that you can't. Can't is really not being able to do something. So identifying the difference on what is difficult versus I actually can't do this.

38:29I can't fly to France right now because I'm sitting in my office talking to you. I can fly to France after this if I really took the steps. but there is a difference between I can't and this is hard. Yeah. I couldn't agree more with that. It's one of the things where anytime I have any team members that are like struggling to try something new, it's totally okay to remind them and say, hey, just so you know, in order to be great at something, you have to be good at it first. In order to be good at it, you have to be bad at it first. In order to be bad at it, you have to try. And so oftentimes I think that when we're looking at action steps, I love what you said in the sense of, you know, So we need to figure out, okay, what's actually holding us back?

39:08Is this a mentality? Is this a story that I've told myself? Why do I feel like I won't like those things? Is that really rooted in like the actual task and I've done it and I've experienced it and I don't like doing it because of that? Or is it something that you're just telling yourself because you love the animals so much that you genuinely don't think that you would enjoy the admins side? and I think fear yeah fear like fear is a huge barrier for a lot of us the fear is also something that that holds us back and talking through that am I afraid to fail yes am I afraid to fail exactly that am I afraid that some part of this is going to be hard and I don't know how to am I afraid that I don't have enough resources am I afraid that they're not going to train me am I afraid like do the deep level work to figure out what is it that's trying to hold me back this is where Andy, I think, talks a lot about the fivefold why.

39:59So ask yourself why five times. So if you're telling yourself, like, I can't do this role, ask yourself why. Why? And then once again, why can't I do that? Why can't I do that? Slowly you'll uncover some of the pieces of whether this is for me and this is not for me. So after we've done the steep work and let's pretend like maybe this mailbag smitter has already done that. And that's exactly why they got to this point of, I've decided like I def I have like maybe they have experience they tried some of the stuff and they've gotten to the point where they've decided no this is definitely I definitely don't want to be a practice manager that much I know if they're in that space what do you think is the next step there where do they should where should they start looking or thinking about the industry to move so I think there's a couple answers for that if coaching and development is something that this person wants to stay with and they want to stay at their hospital, I think creating a space for that, I will tell you, and there are very few hospitals I have been in that do not need somebody on the floor being an advocate for that development, for coaching, training.

41:09If we can tap into the power of coaching and training as an industry, I guarantee we will see less turnover. we will see less burnout. But we have forgotten to develop and train and connect with our teams. We go to moving on to another place and then putting a lot of efforts and resources into recruitment. And meanwhile, while the team is short, or you have people that are green, we don't give people the support that they need. So if the individual wants to step outside of the hospital, there are quite a few options. And at academia, where I'm currently teaching animal foundational course at my local college, I love it.

41:56I get to work with animals and share the things that I learn. You can check online for those. There's also, like I'm working with an organization, Vet and Tech, and we are putting together learning resources and courses. I would reach out to different organizations and see if they're looking for somebody to help with coaching and training as well. Yeah. And I love that you mentioned that because there's so much that it's not like they're already doing as a lead inside the practice. And they did mention that in order to get to where they need to financially, which I think is something that we need to obviously point out is, yeah, if you are in a space where you're like, I want to make more money, but I don't want to do it this way.

42:41Know that your other stuff doesn't have to be full-time. Like a lot of people start putting together their content. They start doing some, you know, speaking engagements, things like that, all part-time to supplement their incomes. And eventually, once it grows big enough, you can do it full-time and do, you know, entirely. Of course, it's all dependent on what they've got. There's coaching certificates, there's education certificates. I would definitely look into the people that have historically found things that are that they are super passionate about and turn them into something right like veterinary anesthesia nerds was not a thing until Tasha McNerney decided that she was gonna nerd out about anesthesia and create it mentor vet itself was not a thing until there was a veterinarian that said we need more mentorship in veterinary medicine and then it created uncharted veterinary practice and community and leadership you know training was not a thing until he was like we need more of this and so I think it goes to what you have said so beautifully which is find the gap that you're trying to fill in veterinary medicine and figure out how you can do more of that.

43:41And I think sometimes we don't realize that whether it's, you know, putting out content, whether it's writing articles, whether it's going on a podcast, all of those things kind of slowly build your portfolio over time so that when you are ready to move on, you have something built, which is exactly what happened in my case. You know, I, when I first became a practice manager, I was, I was hesitant to become a practice manager because I was like, I know what I love and I'm nervous about, you know, the actual portions that I like, there's something so freeing about not being in management when you get to just be an employee, like friends, everybody, you know what I mean?

44:15Everybody likes you. All of a sudden you go into managing them and you're like, oh no, like the dynamic has changed. And so I was genuinely nervous about that and I didn't want to have to go through it. But I also at the time knew that I did want to do consulting or speaker work. Like I knew I wanted to do some of that. And so I knew that this would be a stepping stone to that. And so that's what I'm kind of trying to get at is in that process, while I was a practice manager, I was taking on podcasts, webinars, I was doing roundtables, you know, moderating, like anytime that anybody volunteered me for anything, I would do it.

44:49But all of that kind of built a portfolio. So then by the time that Uncharted was hiring, you know, I submitted in my application, they were able to Google me, they found my podcast where I mentioned the Uncharted podcast, you know, like the podcast episode that I did for this other one. And so overall, I think all of those things tend to be small building blocks. And they also help you discover what you're really passionate about, right? Yeah. In the process, I was like, I love communication. I love team development. I love marketing. Like those are the things that I want to talk about. And I only found out because I started doing them on my own.

45:22And so I think that that's something, something that's there is know that those opportunities are available, that you don't have to sit and wait. You can start building them and figuring out what you love most about them, or even start building the credentialing that you need to get there. Because you said it yourself, you started educating with an associate's degree. If our mailbag submitter maybe didn't have that, or they want to go into the education space, like those courses, you know, it sometimes feels like it's going to take me four years to get an associate's degree. That'll be enough to make you stop.

45:53But those four years are coming either way. Right. Break it down. That's the other thing is to take those small steps. I mean, how do you how do you get on a podcast? You know, maybe throw it out there on social media, say, hey, this is what I'm looking to get into. I'm looking for opportunity. Ask other people to help keep their ear to the ground for you on opportunity. Start getting your name out there. It took me a long time and I started doing the little thing here and there and I volunteered a lot. That was something else with my state organization. I started volunteering with organizations that meant something to me that were true to my values.

46:32And that actually unlocked a lot of opportunities that I would not have normally had. It opened doors to people and spaces that I wouldn't have normally run into, which was something that was huge for me that I didn't notice at the time. And even that, showing up to some of the meetings, let's say on my state level, and I'm in this room, it's a chat room, or Zoom, I'll say, with all of these people that are introducing themselves and it's like I have a doctorate I have a PhD and I'm like my name's Beth I'm a licensed technician and I'm just really passionate about change and to sit there and be like wow look at these people I'm around and now I'm in that space I'm in the same rooms and people are like oh we can't believe that you're here and it's like well no I'm just another I'm just different ways to get involved, I think can open up opportunities as well.

47:31And you can discover more about yourself and what you're capable of. Yeah. And I love that you mentioned the networking piece in there too. Cause like, yes, volunteering for those or even moderating for conferences, like what have you, one of the most valuable things there is absolutely the networking. And I did not realize that I was networking when I originally was doing it because I'm just such a people people that I'm like, I will go to all the happy hours and talk to all of my friends and go have fun and just, you know, have a good time. But I didn't realize how beneficial that was at the time.

48:00So like, I know that it's hard. And if somebody who's, you know, want like listening to this or watching it is like, but I'm not a social person, just push yourself a little bit to go to the dinners, to go to the networking events, to shake hands with people, because you have no idea how impactful it is, especially like, I'll tell you now, as somebody who works in the space of organizing conferences or even organizing podcasts, we get a lot of people that want to be on the Uncharted podcast, like at least once or twice a day, I'm getting somebody who wants to be on the podcast. It's really hard for us to be able to know what that person is like if we've never talked to them.

48:38Like if we've never, if they don't have anything online that I could watch, you know, for all I know, I could bring them on the podcast and they talk really monotone and they don't have any topics that are available and engaging for them. And like, it might not fit. And I don't know that because I've never talked to them. But when I talk to them in person and I'm like, wow, this person is so bright. They have so much to share. Like it stays in my head. So later on when I get a mailbag, you know, I'm like, oh, I know who that perfect person is for that because I talked to them at this place. So just know that there is such a benefit to going out and being able to network and talk to people and share what you're passionate about.

49:17And that's usually that's all that I was doing. I didn't realize I was networking, but I'd be like, yeah, I'm working at my practice and we're doing this and we're doing that. And it's so much fun because we're doing this. But the entire time I was just passionate about what I was doing and people saw it and they're like, you know what? I'd love to have you on the podcast to talk about that. Was that something that interests you? Yeah, I'd love to do that. That sounds great, you know? But that's kind of the power of community, essentially what you've talked about, but also the power of get out of your comfort zone, go talk to the people that are doing those things.

49:44And especially if you admire them, like if you are listening to this podcast and you're like, yeah, I would love to do something like MentorVet. Go talk to the people that put up MentorVet. I mean, they're all so wonderful. Email address is right on the website too. If there is an organization that you love, the contact information is right there. Send an email. And I think you can get out of your comfort zone too and still be a vulnerable human being. You can still be yourself. I mean, every time I speak, and Maria knows this because we did the keynote, I talk about how I sweat. like I'm so nervous with this and I you know I think that's something that other speakers sometimes struggle with or just when you get out of your your comfort zone and being nervous you can still be yourself and be a human being I feel like what a lot of what I stand for you don't have to be perfect just be yourself be true to who you are but get out of that comfort zone and try something new.

50:43I'm so glad that you mentioned that because I know it's so that that genuine being genuine is so important to to networking that I think we could do a whole podcast episode on how to network. I thought you were talking about my sweating. The no I mean that's you sharing that story is who you are you know what I mean you're like that's this is who I am I keep it real like I'm so self-conscious about it and you know if I see somebody else and getting embarrassed I will pretend like it's hot in there or like oh they need to turn on the air oh yeah what you're not getting hot flash either like this the other day I will support you and whatever quirk or whatever vulnerability you have because I love that of them and honestly like I love it so much because I think it just speaks to the kind of work that you're going to put out there for sure in the sense of like okay so one of the things that I love about being on the uncharted team is that we are very different people.

51:38And one time I remember that Tyler was giving, Tyler Herring, I love her so much. She was giving a lecture and she flat out said, she's like, she's like, I'm not going to be loud because that's not who I am. So I'm just going to be a little bit more chill and that's all right. And I love that she said that because it's true. Like, and you don't have to be somebody you're not just because you are in a different space. If you're networking, if you're doing a lecture, if you're, if you're going into this area, a lot of times people will look at me and they're like, but Maria, I'm just not like you.

52:07I don't have that kind of energy. I don't have, I'm like, you don't, who told you, you have to be like me to do what I do. Like mine is, that is, I wake up like this. I wake up and I'm like, good morning everyone. You know, like that is ridiculous. And not everybody loves it. There are some people who are like, Maria, that's cringe AF. And I don't want to hang out with you. Maria, I need coffee before I talk to you. And it's like, that's not my audience then. And that's okay. It's like, you are going to resonate with the people more when you are genuine to who you are. And if you are the total opposite of somebody else, that's okay.

52:41Like this, there are speaker, speaking engagements, education opportunities for every type of different personality in veterinary medicine. I'm sure it's going to be okay. And what, you know, the other thing is we need representation too. We need different personality types, introverts. There are plenty of introverts that are out there that are speaking and that are leading on different teams as well. So it's not just because sometimes I wonder about being, I am a extrovert in case you couldn't tell. I am a disc assessment. I'll definitely move over to the ads if there's other leaders. That's what you find like.

53:15Oh, thank goodness. I don't have to lead. I can just turn that part of my brain off. But there are quite a few introverts out there. This is something that anybody can do. I think a lot of it, too, is about getting outside of your comfort zone and finding your people that will help support you in those areas when and where you need lifting. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything else that you would tell the specific mailbag writer to do over the next, like, 6 to 12 months? Besides the things that we've already covered, obviously. I'd say set some goals. Take action on what you're going to do. Reach out to find a podcast.

53:51find somebody to to keep their air to the ground for you but set some actionable goals put a time frame on it as well and set some steps for yourself some action steps on how to make that decision yeah I love that whether it's I'm going to reach out to this person by then I'm going to attend this conference I'm going to learn I'm going to sign up for my college courses I'm going to get my cvpm I'm going to do whatever it is that you're trying to do like just just put a timeline, put it as a goal, markle it out. Like this is you, you're managing yourself at this point, right? Empowerment. I think a lot of what we're talking about too is self-empowerment.

54:30Yes. Unfortunately, there isn't always going to be somebody there that's going to say, Hey, I see this opportunity for you. It is taking the reins on your own career and saying, this is something I want. Literally what's the worst that can happen? Somebody says no. And then, and then what? Maybe you, you, you go to something else, or maybe you're like, You don't really hear no. You just hear not right now. I'll try again later because I have to touch that stove twice to make sure it's actually hot. So finding empowerment in yourself may be one way you want to develop. Maybe asking your practice manager to delegate some additional responsibilities to you to test things out.

55:09Maybe it's asking for a raise. That's the other thing. Maybe in your car. Finding a way, asking for a raise for more money. Make up your own. I feel like I made up my own position. I did too. Yeah. I feel like, yes, there was not a marketing director full time in my clinic until I started. Yeah. So I wholeheartedly, you could be the coaching and development expert in your practice and you don't know that your practice, you know, doesn't need that until you have that discussion. So I love that. Bring to your practice manager what that role will do. I will develop training this often. I will coach individuals.

55:45We will see, you know, retention or what you hope to gain as a result of the position. But I think a lot of us now are making the positions that we need in this profession. We're setting our own career paths. So you are speaking at Team Lead Summit on October 13th. Yes. And that's virtual. So that Team Lead Summit is available to anybody who wants to join virtually. It's one of the, I love virtual events because it's like, stay at work from home, put on your pajamas, you know, have a, have a treat and learn, like invest in yourself. Yeah. Drink some coffee. Exactly. Order yourself some DoorDash, some Uber Eats, like definitely invest in yourself.

56:27I love the Team Leads Virtual Summit. And you're also speaking at NAVC Hive. Yes. October 24th and 25th in Phoenix, Arizona. I'll be there too. So we get to see each other, deliver a keynote together. Other than that, where can people hear from you, find you, get more information if they want to pick your brain about anything? LinkedIn is a great place to connect with me under Elizabeth Stark on LinkedIn. Hit me up. I'd love to connect with you. And then my business website, VetRefSolutions.com. You can hit me up there, see some of the newer things that are going on. Or if you need support, if you're looking for coaching, training, consulting, any kind of program development, you can reach me through there as well.

57:11Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I had so much fun. I knew we would. Everybody else, thank you so much for joining us. And we'll catch you next time. See you guys later. And that's it. That's what we got. I hope you all enjoyed this episode. I know I had tons of fun talking to Beth. She is just such a fountain of energy. I genuinely love all the things that she's doing in veterinary medicine. I mean, we didn't even really get to touch on all of the things that she's doing. But let me tell you, she is putting together some really cool resources that I think are going to be huge in veterinary medicine.

57:40And I know this is a hard thing to be in. Every time that we find ourselves at crossroads in our careers, really thinking about taking a job, whether you take it because of the money or you don't, at the end of the day, like we have to be happy where we are. We have to make sure that we're feeling fulfilled. We have to make sure that we're doing the things that we love because that's what leads to longevity in the profession. And that's what we want to see. And so I hope you got something out of this. As always, we love to hear from you. Leave us a message wherever you listen to your podcast and we'll catch you next time.

58:15A brand new course is now available from the Uncharted Veterinary Conference team. Don't Get Sued is an on-demand eight module course that we've created in partnership with HR expert Debbie Hill. To help you answer the question, why do veterinary practices get sued in the first place and what can I do to protect my team? This course is available now for$2.99 and is free for Uncharted members. You can find out more now at unchartedvet.com.