211. The Founder Playbook to Grow Fast, Build Systems, and Stay in Love With the Business

0:00Imagine this, you're 26 years old and you have just launched a digital agency. You're the underdog, competing against the giants of Madison Avenue from day one. For five years, you grind it out, winning innovative startups and building a name for yourself. But the operational weight of the business, payroll, collections, HR starts to pull you under. So you decide to sell the company you bled for. For most founders, that's the end of the story. But for John Samponia, it was just the beginning of a new chapter. One where he stayed on to run his agency for another six years, proving that selling your business doesn't have to mean selling your soul.

0:37I'm Ryan Atkinson, and this is the Up With Podcast where we uncover the secrets of building and running successful businesses. Today, John is here to share his playbook for how to compete with the giants, build a business that runs on consistency, and redefine what success looks like after you've already made it. I am so excited for this. I'm excited to be inspired as an agency owner myself. So John, thank you so, so much for being here. Thanks for having me. It's gonna be good, and let's rewind the clock. Take us back to John, 26 years old. He co-found Wondersauce. You have the ambition to compete with the major players in your guys' market.

1:08I mean, where did that confidence come from and belief from such a young age that you guys could actually do this? Yeah, I think that it all comes down to doing the work well. For me, it was always about the work, making sure the people that are paying you money are super happy. And it doesn't matter if you're a company that creates campaigns, buys media, makes websites, or if you are a landscaping crew or a house cleaning business, at the end of the day, if you're a services business, your clients will dictate your viability and market and ultimately how much you grow. So when we made the decision to start the agency, there's risk involved in that.

1:46But we knew collectively that the output of what we would do on day one in terms of work quality would be incredibly high. And once we had a client get a taste of that, they would speak and it would start to spiral and we would pick up more clients. So we never kind of started the agency and day one, we're like, we want to go after the biggest brands, the biggest agencies in the world. We knew that if we were doing good work, we would get there. And honestly, it starts with small wins and those small wins turn to bigger things. And before you know it, you find yourself in very big boardrooms pitching very fancy people.

2:24And you're like, how did I get here? And I think I'm still a kid. So this is cool. Yeah, no, it's so cool. And I want to talk about that like boardroom perspective because you had a pivotal moment where like, you know, turning pro moment when you want to pitch against like several large, like traditional big name agencies here. Take us inside the room where that like all happened. Like what did you do differently to win some of those? Kind of pin us a picture of right there. So anyone who engages with me or Wondersauce, we don't have a sales team. We don't sell. We give you ideas. We speak about how we can impact your business.

2:57and we are like ruthlessly raw in our delivery. Very blunt. People think that I'm like, it's not abrasive. It's just how I speak, but it's direct. Maybe it's abrasive, I don't know. But I like to get excited about things. So for me, when we're pitching business and there's organic excitement about an idea, how we would service it, the process we would adapt to ensure it's gonna be successful, we have like no other speed except like full send when it comes to like being able to articulate why we think we're the best fit for something. So I remember, you know, the same playbook we had and worked on smaller businesses and we found ourselves in bigger pitches and bigger pitches.

3:40And all of a sudden you're in a room with, you know, very respective individuals and executives. And I think a lot of times like the raw aspect of what made us unique was like refreshing to a lot of companies where they were used to seeing agencies come in super polished and really buttoned up and everything was scripted. And then we would come in, like four or five of us, and we would just kind of riff on expertise and give them different perspectives and simplify things. And people would just be refreshed. So a lot of times, like that would get us to the finals. That would get us to the final two.

4:11And then we would basically dial up our diligence and we would put together like all the things you need to be a serious business. Here's like the team and how the structure will be built around reporting for your business. Here are the hours. Here's the process. Here's how we're going to handle stakeholder interviews. Here's how we're going to handle feedback. And all the things that a big buttoned up shop has, we would basically then go about doing that because we came from big agencies. We knew that level, but we wouldn't default to that level until the second or third round of the pitch when we already had their trust and they knew we were smart because we had to overcome the fact that we looked young and we were young and we had a lack of experience.

4:50So we had to win them over with our smarts first and then ultimately then check all the administrative boxes, all the risk boxes down the line. That's super interesting. I want to ask about this playbook a little bit more. And like what I love about your approach so far is I don't know if you've ever read the challenger sale, but basically the methodology behind that is like, I'm going to go into a conversation. I know more than this person about subject matter expert. I'm going to teach them something there. I love that. That's like truly like what you're doing with this. I want to talk about that playbook like a little bit more.

5:19So take us through like that process, like putting together the dash, because I want to speak to the audience by like, how do you appear bigger than like you actually are? It sounds like you guys got that down to a T when you're just starting out. So talk to us a little bit more about that playbook and like the presentation and how you brought together ideas. Yeah, I mean, I think it's difficult to appear much larger than you actually are. And I think there's always an element of like fake it until you make it. I think like it's very true. But you also don't want to be like misleading to the extent where you do something wrong and then you're in trouble.

5:46I do think like you need to be able to back up what you're saying. So whether it's relying on freelancers or having like pre-committed staff that you'll hire once you win a bigger piece of work. At the end of the day, I always rest on the idea that if those people didn't exist and something bad happened and you couldn't staff up immediately, could the people that you have on hand do the work, even if it required a gnarly run of nights and weekends? And if the answer is yes with some help, then yeah, you're faking it a little bit. But the subject matter expertise is there. And then you also have to think about what are the elements of your business that are the most risky?

6:25And you don't want to be messing around with that. I think like from our perspective, you know, if we're building you a digital product, like a mobile experience, and you don't have an engineering team, that's a really big gap that you shouldn't be faking. Let's say maybe you're missing some piece, like you're missing, you don't have a full time QA person to test, but like your producer can test, your engineers can test. That's something you can like supplement with like freelancers. But like, you want to make sure that like the core of what they're asking for, you can deliver because clients are smart and you don't want to be caught in a situation where they expose you because then your reputation is shot and reputation is everything in this industry like we built our business on reputation so else you could be honest you could just you could you could be like completely like show the cards of what you have today and where you're going and why that's a good thing for this for this business to jump on early and like we had that a lot early days where we had a senior team of people that were like, just amazing at what they did.

7:25And we were saying like, this is your team. There's no hiding. You're getting this team in this room. So this team in this room is exciting. And you like the vibe. Well, sign on the dotted line because you're getting it. And if you don't like us, then you should immediately end this conversation because this is all we have. So people always like, you know, promise like the, you know, they don't want to bait and switch. There's no way to bait and switch when you're small. Ah, that's super good. I love that, like the transparency through that whole process. I want to kind of fast forward as well, because a super important part of your story is actually selling.

7:56You guys sold to a like project worldwide, but you stayed on to run the company. Obviously, you're still like running the company here. Talks about the difference between being like a founder now versus kind of being like an intrapreneur. How did like your role like change or anything? Or like, what does that look like? Well, you know, like selling your company is always like one of those moments that is glorified. in many instances, I feel like it's the end for so many people. For us, it was an incredible journey. I mean, it went from two people to 100 people in five years. And a completely independent agency in New York City that was digitally focused was a very good asset.

8:32At the time, we were wise beyond our years. We knew we had a good asset. And when you have a good asset, you get to basically be a little bit more selective with finding a permanent home. And the important thing for us is we went into the sales process with exactly what we wanted. We were not done building. Our story had not ended yet. We were not trying to retire. We were not trying to stop and play golf. We were trying to keep growing. And the project was really unique. They have a history of buying founder-led businesses and keeping the founders. So when we met with them, and they have like 13 agencies at the time, and I think 12 of them still had the founder operating the business.

9:09I mean, the proof is in the pudding. So for me, that was incredibly interesting. And they also had a very collaborative network of complimentary businesses that can kind of like one plus one equals 10. That was interesting to me. So I've heard horror stories about acquisitions, especially in this industry. And I can't say enough how positive that acquisition was and how it continues to be one of the better decisions we've ever made. So I mean, I still feel like an entrepreneur. I still feel like it's my business and my baby. And even though I don't know any of it anymore. I'm still in charge of the fate and the decisions we make of Wondersauce.

9:43And it's an amazing model. And I think that for anyone out there ever considering selling their business, you need to be very clear about what you want out of your business. Now, for me, it was to keep building. For you, it could be to exit and that's it, you're done. And if that is your goal, you need to be transparent with your buyers about, I built this thing, here's why it's special, and here's why I'm not important for it in the future. Make sure you've built redundancy into your business so when you tell that story, you don't scare everyone off. If you're still the business and they're like, I want this person, they are everything.

10:19And the second you walk away, the business crumbles, no one's gonna buy your business. So you need to understand like scale, redundancies and ultimately be honest because you talk about how you're excited to build, you're excited to join this thing and then you leave right away. it's not a good look. So be honest about your intentions for an acquisition anytime you're exploring that as well. Most people spend months, sometimes years, just thinking about starting a business. But what if you could do it in just 10 days? That's exactly what the 10-day business launch plan is designed for. It's a step-by-step roadmap that takes you from idea to real operational business in just 10 days.

10:57Click the link in the description below and get ready with your business. Talk to us about the redundancy because future is safe for a lot of people. they're going to want to start companies. They're interested in starting companies and exiting like is probably like a very common like end goal in mind. But a super important part of that is like building systems and redundancy. Like as you talked about, talk to us a little bit more about like setting up systems and like why it's so important. I just want to like really hit the nail on the head for people that like, if you're going to sell a business, you need to have like your systems, your SOPs in place here.

11:26Yes, every business, I don't care what it is. They need to have a clean back end financially. They need to have audited financial statements, a good system that ties into their banks to handle things like invoicing and payroll and all that good stuff, accounts receivable. So you need that. I don't care how big the business is, get in the habit of having an incredibly clean financial backend on day one. And then operations. Like for us, operations looks like resourcing because we're a people business. So like what people go where on what projects for how long, crucial. You need to constantly have an inbound stream of talent that you're interviewing.

12:03So everyone's operations is going to look different. You need to have people that are in charge of different disciplines, creatives, technology, content, media, project management, et cetera. So as you scale, you need to have someone who's accountable for that pod. And that pod could be consistent of one person oversees four people or one person oversees five other executives who oversee 500 people. But you need to have your systems of accountability. so every layer of scale has a different depth but at the end of the day you're going to start making like micro decisions that start to lead to making yourself less and less relevant at the business level so it starts with like it's very easy like you know when we're two people and you're making your first hire i think the instinct is to always go like well we're doing a lot of creative work.

12:54And there's two of us, let's hire the best creative possible. But if you're already doing good creative, maybe hire a project manager who can help organize your lives and take you out of running the day to day on those work streams. Because if you're the founder, if you're the CEO, if you're the creative director, you're almost undermining your ability to level up by also being the PM. So like hire someone to do that. And then like constantly start plugging holes. But I think like the knee jerk thing I always hear from founders is like, I'm involved in everything and I have my hands and everything.

13:31I'm super hands on. And they think that it's a good thing. And they think that they're better at a lot of the stuff that they actually are. And they don't realize because they're so far in it that one, they're actually not good at a lot of it. And two, like they don't think that their clients are upset about certain inefficiencies because they're also hearing their clients say, like, I love direction too, it was so good. And because they heard, like, they love that creative direction that you did, they're immediately forgetting that, like, well, like, you didn't follow up to these three emails, you were late on meeting notes, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

14:06So, like, you're actually not that good at all those things. And if you remove yourself, your clients might actually be happier, and your team might run better. So, I understand it's good to roll your sleeves up, but you're probably not as good as you think you are at all that stuff anyway. So pull away. So in the past year or so, all of 2024 for my own company, I was the project manager. I was moving projects along. I was communicating with clients. And that's honestly not my skillset. I'm sales and marketing through and through. That's generally what I'm best at. And we got to the end of Q4 last year and we were talking about before this podcast, it was such a grind.

14:41I'm like, why are we not getting new clients? It's like, well, my focus is on serving these clients. What if I fill this role and I could focus on sales and marketing. One of the best decisions of our life, now we're gonna be growing over 100 % this year just because I don't wanna toot my heart too much, but like we're, I focus on sales and marketing. It's a founder-led sales cycle right now. What is, I mean, you grew from two to 100 employees in five years, which is obviously incredible growth. Best levers you pulled there. How did you grow so fast? It's such a large question. Take it as you will right there, but like keys to that growth.

15:10What are like two or three keys to that growth? Again, this is another thing that applies to any business, but it's work and reputation. If your work and reputation is good, people will talk and refer you to other people. And never forget your clients that have already trusted you with their business, always look for areas to reward them, give them more. We came from agencies that were obsessed with like every little change was like extra money, a change order, this, or looking for a new scope for that. And we were just like, give value back, make people believe. And, you know, I remember reading like Setting the Table by Danny Mayer, like the Shake Shack founder and the way they would go about just rewarding loyalty and getting people to like really make decisions about coming back to that restaurant because they had basic CRM in place where they were talking like the 80s and 90s and they'd go into Union Square Cafe and they'd be like, we know John got the chicken last time.

16:06He likes the chicken. Let's try and like sell him on this dish now because he might like that. And also give him a free dessert. Like little things like that, where if a client is basically asking you for help on something, one, that's flattering because they trust you with maybe taking on more responsibility. So the way I see it is like, if a client comes to me and they're just basically like, I'd love your thoughts on this. Like, I don't know if you do it, but we need to hire for it. And I thought of you. What do you think? I'd either say like, we don't do it, but this person does. Or yeah, let me think about it.

16:41And next week, we're going to give them 10 ideas that we feel like are immediate opportunities for them. And you're moving. But for me, it's like doubling down on the clients that trust you and doing great work because it's such a small community and people talk. So for us, we built that in our entire business on reputation and word of mouth. and like for you, like if you're a gifted salesperson and removing yourself from project management, you were able to basically grow 100 % a year by focusing on marketing and sales. It is so much harder for you to find someone who's Ryan, who can sell like you versus getting your complete focus on the most important thing.

17:24And then like, what does it look like to give you a platform to even be like louder in more places and have more awareness? and that could be like paid opportunities at conference and speaking engagements. It could be professional content like we're doing right now. But like, there's a way to do like scale on that model too without it requiring hiring a robust sales team. Of course, it could be a sales team. But there's a bunch of ways of kind of doing this. But for us, it was all about just like, let the work speak for itself and it'll inspire. Yeah, no, I absolutely love that. And that's what I wanted to hit on next is like service offerings.

17:58Because obviously you guys have expanded your service as well. you talk with clients who have a good understanding of what they want. Talk just about a new service to talk with the client. How does that go? And you're essentially offered for free, if I'm reading this correctly. How do you guys go about that? Because obviously, that takes a lot of vulnerability and transparency, as you've discussed before. But why is it super powerful to do it that way? To say, hey, we're going to learn with you. Does that build trust or what is that? Well, it has to make sense. So in the early days, we were doing websites, apps, branding systems, and some campaigns.

18:28This was like 2011 or something. People were like, can you buy our Facebook ads? Can you buy our Facebook ads? Blah, blah, blah, blah. This is like 15 years ago. And we were like, yeah, we can do it. And it was just, it had just come out. And we were learning alongside them, like basically performance marketing and paid. And when one person asks you, there might just be asking you, but when two people ask, three people ask, four people ask, they see you as someone who probably does this. So there's something there. So like, if people are thinking about you through a certain lens, and a few people start saying the same thing, there's a reason.

19:01It's not just random. There's an opportunity for you. So you could potentially use that to lean in to learn it, and just be transparent with your clients about like, this is where we're at in our journey. And we're willing to give you a break on pricing until we basically prove this, and this is your goal. When we hit it, we want to be paid better. But I think like you could just be brutally transparent about that type of stuff if you think it makes sense to your business. I mean, I feel like that's what's happening right now with AI. Like you're seeing people kind of fall into traps where because AI is so approachable and so democratized, people are spinning up these products using like ChatGPT and Gemini.

19:37And they're like, we can start selling this. And it's like, well, no, you can't. Like that's not a real product. Like just because you built a GPT doesn't mean like you're a product developer now. Like you built an efficiency tool. Great, be more efficient. But like, don't confuse that with like, you didn't just build software that like you can like sell and license. Like that's not your business. So know the difference. Yeah, no, that's super, super good. I also want to talk about, obviously, John, throughout like this whole podcast, like you have been energized as heck and which I absolutely love.

20:08Like I feed off that energy as well. An important part of your routine is waking up at like 5.30 a.m. Talk to you about the importance of having like a morning routine, how that drives discipline, energy, all that. Because I want to talk to the entrepreneurs that, you know, they could have better habits here. So talk to us what John does. Oh, man. Well, I'm 41 now. So you look great for 41, man. I've got to kind of like pick and choose my battles here around how to get the most out of me. When I was 26, I could just roll out of bed and do whatever and stay up until 5am and I'm fine. But for me now, I need like rest, exercise, and to feel like clear to be effective or I'm just too cloudy.

20:47So yeah, like I also have a four year old daughter. So like, you know, she consumes a lot of my time as well. And it's, it's like, you have to find time for yourself. So waking up and prioritizing, getting a sweat in eating right, and ultimately, starting the day where you feel mental clarity, it gives me more energy. So it's something that I started taking really seriously a few years ago. And it's cliche, but it's very helpful. So whatever that is that works for you, some people like to run, some people lift weights, some people do classes, whatever it is for you, whatever you can do consistently that isn't like a crazy burden, I really encourage because it's key to maintain that energy all the time.

21:25Or no one will also, clients want to feel inspired when they speak to you. So you don't want to be like kind of tired. What are like, if you could advise, a first-time founder to develop these two habits? If it's personally or professionally, what would it be? Because you have a very successful business. You sold it, you grew it, and you're still growing it. I want to talk about the habits that have set you up for success. What is it either personally or professionally as well? Well, I think before you even get into it, you've got to start a business for the right reasons. If you're only starting a business because you think it's a good path to money, but it's not actually something you're good at or inspired by, you're not going to make it.

22:05There's better people down the street than you are. And you have to think about this. Like for me, like what we do here, I don't consider this work. When I'm like learning about something that is going to better my business or what new trend is going to impact us or new technology, I'm reading it because I'm interested. I'm not reading it because like I have to. So I'm just absorbing this stuff organically. It's second nature to me. I don't have a reading list every day. I don't force myself to listen to podcasts because I have to. My media mix has been curated over the course of years. It's constantly changing, but it's based on my interests.

22:46And I'm able to figure out how to tie that to my work. But if you're starting a business for the wrong reasons, you're going to get exposed and you're going to get beat by someone who's just better at it than you are. So start it for the right reasons. And then I think the second thing is as you scale, you need to surround yourself with good people. And you need to find people that are better than you are at certain things. And you need to be comfortable not having the answer for everything. That's something that I struggle with. It's probably really obnoxious. It's just like, dude, pause, pump the brakes.

23:20No one's asking for your input here. We're actually just reporting back something for you. So listen. So as I've matured in business, as the company has matured, I keep taking steps back. The company keeps getting better. I keep finding new ways to reinvent my role. So I think like whether your business is, you know, what I'm doing or something completely different, people matter. And you need to find the right people to make you better and to make your clients and your customers super excited. So for me, it's like the right reasons and the right people always. Nice. I absolutely love it. Before we dive into our fan books, I just want to ask like a reflection question here.

24:01Obviously you've been running this since you're 26, you're 41 now. What timeframe do you feel like you grew the most professionally? Was it when you were going from two to 10 employees, two to a hundred? Was it after you sold? Just curious there. And why'd you feel that growth? It's a really good question because like people ask me why I'm still doing this. And I've had like really interesting reinvention moments. I'll say like the first year was just so wild because it's like the pinch me moment where you're two people, then you're 10 people. by a year end. And you're like, oh my God, like I have employees.