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Podcast Summary: This Is TASTE Episode 211 - Chanie Apfelbaum
Podcast Information
- Title: This Is TASTE
- Hosts: Aliza Abarbanel and Matt Rodbard
- Episode: 211
- Guest: Chanie Apfelbaum
- Description: The episode features Chanie Apfelbaum, author of *Totally Kosher* and creator of *Busy in Brooklyn*, discussing modern kosher cooking and her experiences as a modern Orthodox individual.
Key Topics Discussed
- Introduction to Chanie Apfelbaum
- Chanie Apfelbaum discusses her latest book, *Totally Kosher*.
- Highlights that the book is not solely for religious audiences; it aims to modernize kosher cooking.
- Chanie emphasizes the importance of making kosher cooking approachable for everyone.
- Understanding Kosher Cooking
- Definition of Kosher:
- Kosher means "fit" in Hebrew and refers to food that is permissible for observant Jews.
- Basic rules include prohibiting pork, shellfish, and mixing milk and meat.
- Challenges in Kosher Cooking:
- The primary challenge is the prohibition against mixing milk and meat, affecting the use of flavorful ingredients like butter.
- Chanie prefers to use coconut oil as a butter alternative due to its versatility.
- The Evolution of Kosher Cuisine
- Chanie discusses how her experiences growing up in an Ashkenazi household influenced her cooking, but she’s also incorporated flavors from Sephardi cuisine after marrying into a Sephardi family.
- She encourages exploring beyond traditional Ashkenazi foods, blending different cultural influences to modernize kosher dishes.
- Essential Ingredients in Kosher Cooking
- Discussion on the importance of umami-rich ingredients such as soy sauce and miso to enhance flavors in kosher diets.
- Chanie mentions using tahini as a key ingredient for thickening and emulsification in her recipes.
- Cultural Significance of Shabbat
- Chanie shares her experience of Shabbat as a time to unplug and connect with family.
- She expresses the unique challenge of preparing elaborate meals every Friday, often creating new menus each week.
- Modern Jewish Identity and Orthodoxy
- Chanie addresses the complexities within Orthodox Judaism, emphasizing the different customs among various sects.
- She shares her beliefs and practices within the Chabad community, highlighting the importance of outreach and representation.
- Discussion with Shalom Japan Founders
- The episode also features Sawako Okochi and Aaron Israel, co-founders of the Brooklyn restaurant Shalom Japan.
- They discuss their new book, *Love Japan*, and their culinary philosophy, merging Jewish and Japanese cuisines.
- The conversation touches on the evolution of Japanese food culture in America, particularly its growing popularity in recent years.
- Unique Culinary Inspirations
- Chanie conveys her creativity in the kitchen and her efforts to break stereotypes surrounding kosher food.
- She discusses various recipes and ideas in her book, such as matzo ball ramen and innovative takes on traditional dishes.
Key Takeaways
- Inclusivity in Cooking: Chanie's work encourages people of all backgrounds to engage with kosher cooking, emphasizing that it can be enjoyable and accessible.
- Culinary Fusion: The blending of diverse culinary traditions can enrich the dining experience and challenge preconceived notions about cultural foods.
- Cultural Representation: Both Chanie and the founders of Shalom Japan highlight the importance of sharing their Jewish identities through their cooking and storytelling.
Conclusion The episode offers a rich exploration of modern kosher cooking, personal storytelling from Chanie Apfelbaum regarding her culinary journey, and insights from the founders of Shalom Japan about their unique fusion of cultures in the culinary space. Through lively discussions, the podcast showcases the evolving nature of food, tradition, and identity in contemporary society.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. Resi is a digital platform that connects restaurants to restaurant lovers by elevating dining experiences, providing original industry content, and helping to fill some of the country's most exciting dining rooms. Because restaurants have always been more than just places to eat. The amazing world of restaurants is just a few taps away in the Resi app and at resi.com.
0:32I feel like everyone's kind of stuck in their, you know, comfort zone. I always say, like, Ashkenazi food is paprika and garlic powder, and the Spartan palate is, like, cinnamon and allspice, you know?
0:44You're listening to The Taste Podcast. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard.
0:59Chani Applebaum is the author of a really cool new book, Totally Kosher, and the force behind Busy in Brooklyn, a go-to resource for kosher recipes and thoughts on modern Jewish living. Now, I wanted to have Chani into the studio to talk about the many nuances of modern kosher cooking, but also discuss some questions of mine about her modern Orthodox life. Hani was super game to talk about so many topics, including how these recipes are not only for the religious set. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Hani Applebaum.
1:38Hani Applebaum, welcome to Taste Podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I love your book. Thank you. So exciting. For real, I'm Jewish. I've talked about that on the show, but honestly, I'm not kosher. It is a book for everyone. It is not just a kosher cookbook. There are so many big ideas in here, and I want to unpack a lot of those ideas. But to start, for our audience who might not know what kosher means, how do you describe what the kosher diet lifestyle ethic is? So kosher food, kosher actually means fit in Hebrew, and it's food that's fit for consumption by an observant Jew. There is varying degrees and levels of kosher observance.
2:17at the beer basics, everybody knows. We don't eat pork, we don't eat shellfish, and we don't mix milk and meat together. Got it. You know, going in-depth, we can talk for hours about it because there are so many different rules. There's kosher certification on, you know, on products, on restaurants. You know, there's certain vegetables that we check for bugs and lots of different... Broccoli's bad. Cauliflower gets a lot of bad rap on my Instagram. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, you know, there's a lot of intricacies in terms of, you know, kosher, depending on the level of observance that you keep.
2:54But really, I just really I like to make kosher very approachable to anybody. And like you said, like it's a book that happens to be kosher, but it's just good food. Yeah. Yeah. And also it's cooking with some restraint in a way. And I think that's important to note, like that's challenging for some folks. But you have to really focus on these rules and you make it so your level of creativity is like opt, I think. If you're given like all rules, it would be probably a little different. Very true. Yeah, I agree with that. Now, I want to know what is the biggest challenge to write a recipe that fits in the kosher lifestyle?
3:32I would say it's probably, you know, not being able to mix the milk and meat together. Right. So butter becomes the biggest challenge because butter is so much flavor and adds so much to a dish. And, you know, you can't baste the steak with butter. And I'm not about to use margarine. That's very, you know, old school. And I really want to change that misconception about kosher food that it's all about margarine because people are really not using it these days. Are you anti-margarine? Totally anti-margarine. I love this. Like anti-margarine. The anti - I actually went to a kosher culinary school.
4:04Yeah. So because it's kosher, it was either there's a meat kitchen or a dairy kitchen because there was only one space, right? They didn't have room for both. So everything that we learned in the dairy kitchen, we had to use margarine for. So we had these huge blocks of margarine. And, like, ever since then, I cannot look at margarine again. Like, cannot. So I'm the anti-margarine. You're the anti-margarine, and we don't really talk about margarine that much. But you got other ways to bring out flavor, right? And you don't need butter. Yeah. I mean, definitely coconut oil is something that I lean towards a lot because, you know, it's solid at room temperature and it's great substitute for for butter.
4:40Something that a lot of people don't know about coconut oil is that refined coconut oil doesn't have a coconut flavor. Yeah. So a lot of people just don't like to use it because it's very coconutty. Yeah. I think it's going to be tropical, but ultimately the refined stuff doesn't even. No, no coconut flavor. I love that. Now, you've written other cookbooks and you've written with more religious publishers, but you decided to do this book with Clarkson Potter. Shout out my publisher as well. Yes. Like why? You know, I really, like I was saying before, there are a lot of misconceptions and stereotypes about kosher food.
5:10And I really want to bring kosher to the mainstream world. And, you know, with a religious publisher, you know, my reach is more limited and I wanted to get out there and reach a larger demographic and really get kosher in the limelight because it deserves to be. And kosher, it's not all brown anymore. And if you look at my book, you know, all the food is so colorful. And that's really what got me into food is color and making it beautiful and the artistic part of food. Exactly. And you take your own photos. I do. Which is impressive because, man, Clarkson Potter, they don't let any bad photos show up in cookbooks.
5:47Like it's really a credit to you. Yeah, thank you. I love food photography. Yeah, I know you have a real talent. Now let's talk about Ashkenazi cuisine and Mizrahi cuisine or Arab cuisine or Sephardic, whatever you want to call it. Okay. I think the tendency is to assume kosher food is Ashkenazi, right? But that's not really the case, right? Yeah, not at all. I mean, obviously for me, you know, being a cookbook author, a lot of the foods that I, recipes I develop are inspired by dishes that I grew up with, you know, and I grew up in an Ashkenazi home, like super Hungarian, very sweet dishes. And over time, just really refine my palate and prefer like savory over sweet.
6:28But in my mother's kitchen is always like if something's lacking flavor, she's just pouring more sugar. And I'm like, ma, sugar is a sweetener, not a seasoning. But so, yeah, but then I married into a Sephardi family and really learned a whole new flavor profile that I had not, you know, grown up with. So I really love like kind of fusing the two together and like bringing the Ashkenazi palette to the Sephardi dishes and the Sephardi palette to the Ashkenazi dishes. Because I feel like everyone's kind of stuck in their comfort zone. I always say like Ashkenazi food is paprika and garlic powder and the Sephardi palette is like cinnamon and allspice, you know.
7:07Great. Well articulated. Nice. I like that splitting of the difference there. Yeah. Yeah. You go over ingredients that you think really up a kosher dish and you name 10 of them. We won't go through 10, but give a couple of those that you feature prominently in the book. I mean, I think that, like we were speaking before, like that biggest obstacle is, you know, how the waiting between milk and meat and not being able to mix it. So like relying on umami rich ingredients like soy sauce and miso really can help amp up a dish that needs a little bit of that meaty flavor. But like you can't use beef broth in there, you know.
7:42So being able to learn a little bit about those ingredients that can help for a meaty dish or tahini, which is a really great way to emulsify dishes without using butter. It's great as a thickener for soups and things like that. So I think that understanding how these ingredients can help you in the kosher kitchen overcome that obstacle is really important. I mean, I just got back from Israel for a couple weeks on vacation. The tina was, wow, like it's pretty great there. Yeah. I mean, the stuff here is not as good. Well, you know, I'm a har-brakha purist. And if you speak to any Israeli chef, they all say har-brakha is the best.
8:20They bring it in from Ezra. Now you can get it very easily. So that's my tukhina of choice. I was at a grocery store in Beershev with some relatives, and I bought a couple bottles of their brand. And I don't remember what it was, and I didn't realize that. But, yeah, I think good tahini transforms everything. What's a dish that you use tahini in that's pretty banging? I wish that I don't use tahini. Truths, truths, truths. I literally, I love sesame seeds, sesame oil, all sesame products. But I just love sesame on it, like tahini on its own. But like really like one of the best tricks to making the fluffiest mousse-like tahini is first of all like making it in your food processor, pouring ice water in there and letting it blend for like a good five minutes.
9:05And it's like mousse. That's the one that you, that's the way to do it. Nice, nice. We'll get some more recipes. I feel like we'll go through your falafel technique, this little teaser. It's pretty special. Thank you. I want to hear about Shabbat. I think Shabbat is a time when it's very specific to Jewish culture, and it's special. And I think with food and also just with family, describe how a Shabbat meal kind of unfolds and what Shabbat is. Well, Shabbat for me is like all about unplugging. And especially like being a blogger and being on social media all the time and always on my phone, like just completely disconnecting from technology, you know, for that period of time.
9:44And just like connecting to my kids and really giving them the attention they deserve. Because, you know, we're pulled in a bunch of different directions during the week. And if I didn't have Shabbat, I don't know what I would do. Like it's just so special to all of us. One of the things that I love is bringing in Shabbat, lighting the Shabbat candles. And there's actually a picture of me and my daughters in my book lighting. And it's just like a really special moment for me that I really connect with, that I feel like I, you know, think about the past week and think about the week ahead and, you know, pray for help of my children and people that need it.
10:17It's a really special moment. And then that ushers in this beautiful family time. Yes. And I just like love playing around in the kitchen. I never make the same Shabbat menu, always different things. You're planning it, though, like by Wednesday, right? Not really. Like I think, you know, I always like joke like in Thanksgiving, you know, when people are making Thanksgiving, they're like, how are you planning your Thanksgiving menu? You're starting on Monday. You're shopping on Tuesday. And I feel like we have Thanksgiving every weekend when we make Shabbat. Like it's a full like three to four course dinner, you know.
10:48But I'm so used to it. Like I'm doing it for so many years that like I have it in my backpack. I literally shop and cook and do everything on Friday. But like I'm so quick in the kitchen. We're recording on a Thursday afternoon. We've got about 24 hours to the start of Shabbat. What do you got planned? I didn't plan it. I just like literally go to the supermarket and I plan on the fly. I love it. Okay, you live your truth there. Totally, totally. I love Shabbat. Even for non-observant Jews or even non-Jews, it's a time that you can use to unplug, to reflect. Yeah. Adina Sussman's new book, Shabbat, is going to be amazing.
11:20It's out in the fall. I've seen an early PDF of it. It's amazing. Yes. I can't wait to have her on. Honey, my heart swells because you're Diamond Crystal kosher salt hive. I love that stuff. Like, I feel like, you know what, you have to find your salt that you're comfortable with. You have to. And just always use that because then you just, you learn how it seasons food. And it's just, that's my love. How is kosher salt like the only food that's called kosher that we have in our... Because all salt is actually kosher. Unless it's like merlot salt, like it's been flavored. but they use they call it kosher salt because they use that in the koshering process yeah to remove the blood when in the swattering part of the removal of blood which is part of the kosher um ethic and um back to like diamond crystal there's always mortons but we've talked to many people on the show clare staff as being one of them diamond crystals that superior salt right yes totally it has my heart um i love that so as i mentioned i just returned from israel i was in tel aviv haifa ako beresheba i was like all over do you get to go there at all Yeah, I actually lived there for a year after high school.
12:28I did. I wasn't a foodie back then. It was many, many years ago. And also the culture, the food culture was different then, obviously. So, yeah, absolutely love Israel. What's, to you, what's going to Israel like? And in terms of the food, what are you eating? Is there anything like different from your hometown of Brooklyn that you're kind of getting in Israel? Well, there's so many more kosher options. Like almost everywhere you go, everything is kosher. Yeah. You know, so that's like you go to the gas station, you can get yourself a schnitzel sandwich. Like, that doesn't exist in America, you know?
12:57So just being able to have kosher so accessible, going to the mall and having, like, kosher options, we don't have that here either. So that's just super fun to have, like, you know, kosher so accessible. And they just have, like, so many different, like, you know, restaurants and an amazing range of flavors and global cuisine. Yeah, there's, like, kosher Thai. I mean, straight out. And you have a Thai recipe in your book. I do. That's one of my favorites. Yeah, let's go over that one. The Pad Chai. That high, good playing words there. Yeah, yeah, I love that. It's actually one of my favorite recipes.
13:28And, you know, I just put like that Middle Eastern spin on it and put harissa and cilan, date syrup and lime and tamarind. And it's just like, it's actually one of the dishes. When I was in culinary school, I think, you know, I went in with like my Ashkenazi palate, like I said, paprika, garlic powder. Not a lot of spice. Yes. and that dish is really what like blew my mind and made me shift and realize like it opened up my palate and it opened up like just like the possibilities for flavor you know and I was just like blown away by it so um yeah it's it's a really it's a really uh fun playful dish yeah let's talk about sabik but as a salad yeah it's great let's go over that one yeah so love sabik I mean, you know, my vision for this salad is like Shabbat, we eat so much heavy afternoon meal.
14:17A lot of people, you know, have the third meal of Shabbat or called Shalash Shiddos, right? And you're just kind of still full. But like we still sit down and we have a meal. But like what do you eat that's not, you know, too heavy? So like that was in my mind's eye like the perfect. It's a one dish meal, you know, and it's not heavy. Yeah. What's the components of it? So it's got eggplant and hard boiled eggs and it's got pita chips. Yeah. And cucumbers, tomatoes, really fresh, tahini, amba. So really channeling the sabik, which is a sandwich. The sandwich. Yeah. And I love that. It's like literally one of my favorite sandwiches.
14:51It's really great. Let's talk about falafel. You smash your falafels. Like did not expect that. Right. Did not expect smashing falafels is kind of the new way to do falafels in my brain. Right. And I'm like, why didn't anyone think of this? Like more surface area, all that crunch. And the way I actually make the, you know, when I make the actual mixture, I pulse it so that it's like really kind of big chunks of chickpea in there, and they get so crunchy. It's like mind-blowing. It's really amazing. I went to a place in Tel Aviv in Florentine that does like donut-shaped falafel. Okay. So they're trying to do the similar thing.
15:26Not as successful. I think smashing is the way to go. Totally. Okay. This is like Passover is upon us. I will ask you about that. But you're frying gefilte fish. Yes. It's like a fish cake. Yes. I can't with gefilte fish. I just can't. You can't. I get it. You know, I do feel like gefilte fish is dying a little bit. A lot of people have a very hard time with it. It's one of those. Not. It's brown and mushy. But wait, what gefilte fish are you eating? Is it the gefilte fish from the jar? Obviously. Okay, that's the problem. That's the problem. I know. I set myself up on that when I'm eating Manischewitz and it's like the stuff in the jar.
15:59But that's not gefilte fish. Okay, what is gefilte fish? Let's go. Well, first of all, I have a gefilte fish from scratch in the book, which is a cherished family recipe. My dad used to work in the home of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Menachem Schneerson, and he used to prepare gefilte fish for them, and it's kind of, you know, been handed down, and used to make it every Passover, actually, at home. And I was saying before, my mom loves heavy-handed with the sugar. She was always like, it needs more sugar, it needs more sugar, because that was the seasoning that we used. So she made it very sweet. But yeah, I mean, it's really, like, pure.
16:30It's just ground whitefish, like a mixture of different whitefish, carrots in there, some onion, some egg, and then you just, with a binder, and that's it. So much more savory than what I'm used to. I'm used to like a sweet. And also like it's the one in the jar is just like complete mush. There's like, yeah. So you got to try that. We got to invite you over for the real thing. Got to try the real thing. But you fry yours. So that's cool. Like that's what Totally Kosher is all about is like doing things that are more creative. And honestly, if you're listening to this, you may not be Jewish, but you might just want an idea to like fry some whitefish.
17:03It's pretty great. Yeah. And adding like different herbs and spices in there. And it's basically a fish cake, you know. And that's what gefilte fish is. It's ground fish. I'm planning Passover right now. I'm doing it at my house. I haven't done that in a while. I haven't really cooked Passover ever, so this is new to me. Now, I'm thinking noodle kugel, but you do potato kugel. So noodle kugel actually, like by some standards, wouldn't be really kosher for Passover because it's leavened, right? It has wheat in there and the noodles. Yeah, that's true. Wow, breaking rules. That's actually true. We'll use egg noodles.
17:34You can use kosher for Passover noodles. That's what I think I try to use. Which, yeah, I haven't really tried them. They're different. Mom, do you use kogel? I don't know what we use. I feel maybe bad now. That's okay. I actually have a super fun recipe in the book for sweet noodle kogel latkes with bourbon raisin jam. Sounds great. So it's your like, you know, sweet noodle kogel deconstructed for the people that hate raisins and want it on the side. But yeah, potato kogel is like, it's my mom's perfect potato kogel recipe. I grew up with it every Friday, piping hot out of the oven. Like there's no greater Jewish comfort food to me.
18:07I think I fully agree. Kugel is bomb. Now, what's your showstopper Passover dish? Like, what's the dish that you are known for at Passover, a holiday in the spring? I mean, I actually don't make Passover that much. Like, I usually, for us, it's like a family holiday. So, I go to my mom a lot or I go to other families. So, I haven't really hosted Passover, just COVID because no one had a choice, right? Yeah, yeah. So that was – and actually a few of the recipes in my cookbook that are from Passover were developed that COVID year because when did I ever make Passover otherwise? But otherwise, it's really very simple.
18:39Like I grew up with super simple Passover food because we didn't use a lot of processed ingredients. There were a lot of restrictions in terms of, you know, using anything besides for like minimal produce, you know, poultry, meat, and stuff like that. So everything is like minimally seasoned and very clean. I want to ask you about being Orthodox because I'm Jewish and I'm more I'm more in the reform zone. Like that was a raised reform. And I think our audience, Orthodox, conservative, reform, all stripes of Judaism. Yeah. I would like for you to answer this. What is something about Orthodox Judaism that maybe is misunderstood?
19:16You know what? I think that people tend to put like all of Orthodox Jews in a box. and really there's like so many different sects within Orthodox Judaism. So like a friend of mine is a very big TikToker that talks all about Judaism, Linda Strauss, right? She's modern Orthodox. She wears pants, doesn't cover her hair. And then you have Miriam Azagwe, who's really big, who I filmed with yesterday, who wears a wig and only wears a skirt and is Chabad Orthodox. So, like, I think that everyone kind of, you know, puts us all in a box and like we're all the same. But there's very, very, very many differences within our customs and traditions and the way we observe our Jewishness.
19:57So, you know, I grew up Chabad Orthodox. So Chabad is a Hasidic sect that started in the town of Lubavitch in Russia. We're very into outreach. If you've ever seen the mitzvah tanks, you know, like on the street, that's Chabad. And we're very open-minded and very much about, like, you know, being part of the modern world and bringing Jewishness to everybody, which is, you know, I think you can tell from what I do, like, that's kind of— Yeah, it has a hubbub element, like what you're doing. Yeah, exactly, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, so, you know, people, you know, are watching, like, Shtissel or Unorthodox or all these other shows where they don't know much and, like, they think, you know, all Jews are the same and all Jews have maybe, you know, the long curly payas.
20:39there's really so many different types and i think you know there are so many great uh tiktokers and influencers that you can follow these days that really like demystify all this and and talk about um the stereotypes that are out there and and the different ways that we observe so do the orthodox communities intermingle like i live in orange county i live near a very large orthodox community in curious joel the satmar right do you interact with the satmar sect yourself I mean, I, you know, my community is Qabad, so, like, there aren't any Satmar people around. There are some in Williamsburg nearby.
21:14So I find that some of the communities are very insular and they kind of stick with their own. Sure. So I personally don't, you know, don't know anyone who's Satmar. But, you know, like I was saying, that's the important differentiation here is that, like, there's everyone has their own customs. And also within food, like there's this whole subculture within like Judaism, like there's Jewish foods that everybody knows about. But there's this subculture of like Hasidic foods that within certain communities that they make every Shabbat, you know, very, very traditional to the Shabbat meal. Is there an example of a dish that maybe I would not know about being reformed that maybe is part of part of that?
21:56Yeah. There are so many dishes. but like it's Yiddish tradition I'm sure some of it and the words are Yiddish right exactly so like for example like they served as part of the meal they'll have like egg salad and chopped liver as a actual course together it has to be served it's kind of like a palate cleanser never heard that before yeah I'm like following that like chopped liver as a palate cleanser I'm following that and egg salad together yeah yeah so like we didn't I didn't grow up with that but you know in certain communities that's, you know, a staple. Yeah, absolutely. So, Hani, with the rise of anti-Semitism, particularly in the past couple of years, how are you educating your followers?
22:40You know, not debunking, but how are you bringing Jewish culture into their lives? So, first of all, anti-Semitism is something that is very close to my heart. My brother was killed in a terrorist attack on the Brooklyn Bridge, Ari Haorstam. And actually, today's the yard site, the day of his passing. and it is very important to me you know just just to teach by example like just being a good example of being you know an honest person who has integrity who you know sees so much beauty in our traditions and sharing that beauty and I think I think it just translates when it comes from an authentic place and you have so much pride in it people just pick up that energy and yeah, I mean, I have a lot of followers that aren't even Jewish and have so much respect for, you know, the Jewish traditions and following me and learning about our culture.
23:36And it's really special. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. And I think leading by example is a great way to further, you know, the knowledge and without debunking, you know, these all these myths that are out there by anti that are tied around anti-Semitism. Definitely. Honey, is there one recipe that you really it's going to be like your cookies like Allison Roman cookies like like your viral hit is there like a recipe that you think is going to break out it's so hard to say like sometimes I'll put in like effort and be so excited for a new recipe and then like it just falls flat and then I do something for two seconds and like everybody goes crazy like when I made a raius um you know the the stuffed pita pockets I'm sure you've had those in Israel when I made them on my story like two years ago the pita factories sold out of pita in New York wow yeah And I was like, it's a pita pocket.
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24:27So you never quite know what's going to happen, and I'm excited to see. With my first cookbook, it was my Babka Straws. Hands down. Gail Simmons made them and put them on her Instagram. They definitely went viral, and I did a cinnamon version in this book because people loved it so much. So I don't quite know. I really don't know. I can't wait to see how it breaks out because I know, Will, you're doing so much media. It's a big book. It's a big book for you. Yes, thank you. Yes. Um, I'm really just like, it's, it's great, like catching up with you and hearing about your story. And I want to, I want to get a sense of, um, like when you're dining out and you're not cooking, what are you eating?
25:04Like, what do you, what do you like seek out in, uh, in Brooklyn or wherever your travels may take you? So I definitely seek out like, you know, different ethnic type of foods. Like there's a great Georgian restaurant in Queens called Marani. I don't want to, you know, go just for like steak and fries. I want like a cultural experience when I'm eating out, which is, you know, kind of not so common in the kosher world. But there definitely are places and that's where I'll tend to go. We're going to go on a crawl, right? For sure. Where are we going? We're going to go to Williamsburg and have like the real old school Hamish food.
25:41Yeah. Like pachah. Have you had pachah? I've never had pachah. We've written about it on Taste, but I've never had pachah. Well, my mom used to make it. Yeah. And, like, it has, like, I don't know how many heads of garlic. And it's just, it's not my thing. But you got to have it. I mean, I want to, like, check the scene. I want to see who's dining in these restaurants. What about Chollin? Have you had Chollin? Oh, yeah. I was in Budapest and I had it there. It was really good. Oh, I was just in Budapest. Were you really? Yeah, a couple months ago, yeah. How was that trip? It was really special and meaningful.
26:11It's very sad. It's very sad. It's a sad place for me and for you. But it also made me feel so proud to be Jewish. and to have such a rich culture, you know, and heritage. Yeah. You have some cholent there? I did not have cholent, no. I had paprikash. Paprikash, of course. Yes. It's a cool country. I mean, definitely politically, it's all over the map right now, and, you know, it's tough. But the food there is remarkable. It was very surprising, the wine regions in Hungary are. Right. I was in, yeah, Tokaj. Yeah. I was there. And they're opening, like, two new kosher wineries there. But the kosher is limited, of course, as in any space.
26:51So I can only go to the kosher restaurants. But definitely the wine culture is opening up in terms of kosher wine over there, for sure. What about, like, spirits? Are there kosher spirits? There are. A lot of spirits don't even need certification. Got it. Yeah. So what are you drinking? I'm a bourbon and whiskey gal. Okay, so it's bourbon whiskey, Kentucky style, yeah. I love an old-fashioned. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have a recipe in my book called the Apple Bomb because my name is Apple Bomb. Straight up, yeah. With apple cider and bourbon and spiced maple syrup. It's fun. What about your world peace challah?
27:26I feel like that's something we got to talk about. It's like award-winning challah recipe. It is. From the kitchen website, they did like that side-by-side comparison, a bunch of different challah recipes. And my recipe won. But the problem is that my challah recipe actually makes five pounds of challah because in order to make a blessing on the dough, you have to make a certain use a certain amount of flour so something i regularly get in my emails my dms is like can you give me a recipe for one challah i don't need as many challahs so i was like okay we're gonna do you know a recipe for one challah but traditionally on shabbat we have two loaves of bread in order to make the blessing you have two loaves so by having a pull apart that's considered like two loaves so you can have that one single challah in addition some you know some people call it the shalom bayez chala, which means peace in the home.
28:14Oh, yeah. Like peace between a married couple because every single section has a different topping. So it kind of makes everyone happy. I love it. So I'm like, I'm going global and I'm calling it world peace chala. I love that. It's so fun the way that you phrase that. Yeah. Your hawaii's sheep pan chicken is genius because hawaii's is something that's not usually made in a sheep pan. Here you're articulating in that, you know, very user friendly way. So I love Yemenite chicken soup. usually made with beef, actually. But I make my chicken soup very often for Friday night with lots of owaiz in it.
28:47Yeah. And I put the potatoes and I put tomatoes. And I always say that that spice is, like, otherworldly. And I'm like, I must have been Yemenite in another life because it, like, it transports me. Like, the smell is like it just does something to you. Yeah, owaiz is incredible if you can find it. Well, I'm actually coming out with my own set of owaiz for soup and owaiz for coffee that I'm selling. Yes, because there's a coffee side too. Yes, yes, yes. So there's actually Hawaii's ginger snap cookies in the book as well. Yes, that's right. So kind of because of, you know, I had both of those and I love both of those.
29:18Just stay tuned to my channel. I'm going to be selling those. And they're insane. I bet they're great. Yeah, yeah. You got me thinking about gefilte fish still, by the way. I'm still like, am I going to make gefilte fish and make fried fritters? I think that's so genius. Well, you know what you could do? To cut down on time, just buy a loaf of frozen gefilte fish, defrost it, and then pan-fry them into patties. Yeah, I'm into that. My mom used to do that all the time. That's my one. Yeah. Hani, we asked our Guest in Taste podcast, if you could write a cookbook or food culture book without the burden of time, meaning you have no deadline, or the burden of budget, meaning you have all the money in the world to create the book, what would that be?
29:53I think I would write a book about meat. Kosher meat is something that, you know, there's so many different cuts. All the butchers use different names for the different cuts. Everybody's so confused about what, you know what what each cut means because like even butchers will use the same cut with different names different butchers so it gets really confusing and i just find that people don't understand how to cook meat um yeah you know like dry roasting versus braising which cut is it a tender cut is a tough cut so and i'm really good at cooking meat yeah so um i would love to teach people how to do it so is there like a way that you're gonna take that brisket for passover or wherever it may be served, and make it like your style because that is like, to me, the canonical Jewish meat dish.
30:40Brisket. Yeah. Can I just tell you an honest truth here? Yeah, please. I hate brisket. It's a tough hang sometimes for people. No, I feel like braised meat all tastes like chalant. I know. You know what I mean? I do know what you mean. I've had plenty of not great brisket in my life. Jewish brisket. No, even if it's a great recipe, and I have amazing recipes for brisket, like, you know, in my cookbook, on my blog, I just, I like a piece of rear red meat. Like, I want to chew my food. You know, I don't want to just swallow it whole. So I'm just like, I'm not a brisket girl. Yeah, yeah, I get that.
31:17And I feel like every kosher restaurant has a pulled beef slider and, you know, a pulled beef this and a pulled beef empanada. And I'm just like, please, no. So you're just like how to cook like a nice piece of beef. Good cowboy steak. Yeah, which I have in my book. Yeah. Yeah. Cowboy steak for two. It's like it's yeah, that's what I love. I love that. I'm going to go right to the chapter. Honey Applebaum, thank you for joining the Taste Podcast. Thanks for having me.
31:49Sawah Kochi and Aaron Israel, welcome to the Taste Podcast. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having us. Thanks for coming in, guys. Now, what was last night's service like? Like, you know, you're operating a restaurant in Brooklyn, busy, busy, busy. What was it like? Actually, last night was Monday. Yeah. And it was our night off. So service was like an eight-year-old and a three-year-old making pizza at home. Oh, nice. Oh, let's get into that. Okay. But the previous last service was, it was busy. Yeah. Yeah. It was a long day. So. Yeah. Well, Shalom Japan is a name that anyone in New York City knows.
32:25I mean, you guys have been operating at the highest level forever, it feels like, which is, I hope, a compliment. Because when you become a fabric of a neighborhood and a fabric of a city, it's a real success story. Thank you. Ten years this summer. Wow. That's it? Ten years. We'll talk about Love Japan, your new cookbook. Your first cookbook, right? So how did you guys meet? What's the story? Where did that happen? We met in a Chinese restaurant. Oh, really? So you met working in one? No, it was a dinner that was for Aaron's restaurant where he was working. He was gathered, like, his coworkers and had a dinner there.
33:06And everybody could bring a plus one. And my friend, Jess, who used to work with me, was working with Aaron. And she was like, so I'll be my plus one. Then come hang out. Chinese food. Which restaurant? Which one? It was Oriental Garden. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The OG. It was so good. So good. It closed. Sad. Yeah. We used to, I mean, for years after, we would just always go back around. That time was April when we met. And we would go back and we would eat. And the last time was, I guess, probably like 2019. And then they closed during the pandemic. Yeah. It was sad. So many, I think Chinatown and New York lost quite a few spots.
33:49And that was a real gem. That was great. Yeah. So then you started dating. You opened a restaurant? Yeah, we got married in May of 2013, and then the restaurant opened in July of 2013. We were kind of in the middle of opening the restaurant. I think at a certain point we were like, I think, you know, we're living together. We're starting a business together. Like, what are we doing? We may as well just, you know, add another. Add another, like, complexity to the whole mix. Yeah. So or at least at that point, you know, why not? What are you waiting for? Definitely. So when you were thinking about it, it was Shalom Japan, which is just the, you know, A plus gold star name.
34:32Was that always the name? You know, it wasn't really. So, you know, when we were dating, we were both doing some different things. So I was doing a supper club. I was doing some private chefing things and just sort of thinking about this project that I wanted to do. And I was doing research. We were both hanging out in the Brooklyn Library. I was doing research for something. And I came across like a guidebook from 1983. It was written by Oscar Israelowitz. And it was sort of like a walking tour of the Lower East Side and really interestingly, like kind of timestamped, like all the sites to see.
35:15and you know it sort of mentioned some places to eat when you're done with your tour and one of them was a place called Shalom Japan and it was on Grand and Worcester Street Wow and I saw it so like Tribeca basically kind of or Soho I guess and it was it was a real place and I saw it, I showed it to Sawa and I was like hey Sawa look at this and we immediately started laughing If we ever open a restaurant called Shalom Japan. And it was just sort of like a running joke, really. We're like, yeah, you know, we wouldn't really do that. So, yeah. And so you open it. We did. So the concept from day one, you ended up, you know, naming it Shalom Japan.
36:01But like it was obviously informed by both Jewish cuisine and Japanese cuisine. But it's not a like likely marriage, right? or is it? I mean, for us, it was a very natural process because we were both chefs and we cook for each other and we were kind of like, oh, you know, I have something similar that, you know, like lox and, you know, oh, if I have lox, I wouldn't put it on the bagel. I put it on sushi rice and make, you know, chirashi or something. Definitely. And then we tried each other's food and like, oh, this is This is actually good, you know. And I don't know. It wasn't, like, weird for us, yeah, to meld it.
36:49Yeah. I think a lot of it is about, you know, two people from obviously very different, you know, cultural backgrounds that are coming together and sort of figuring out, all right, you know, how are we going to do this together? And sort of seeing what grows out of that. And that sort of filtered through this sort of love of food that we have. You know, we're both chefs. We both love cooking. We both love eating. We, you know, we don't get to do it as much anymore, but, you know, we love going out to restaurants and trying new things. And so a lot of it really just came out of this sort of dialogue that we were having about food and about each other's upbringings and about each other's cultures.
37:30You know, in a lot of ways, I think it's sort of, you know, it's not just a New York thing. But, I mean, in this country, I mean, it's not uncommon to see, you know, two people from vastly different cultures, you know, finding each other and building a life together. And ours happens to be focused around the table. And so, you know, how do you do that is, you know, you find somebody and you look for common things. Or you embrace things that are different, too. And you're like, wow, I never seen that before. It's good. When you were figuring out the recipes, what was the most requested recipe to put in the book from your longtime guests or friends of yours?
38:08Yeah, the matzo ball ramen. Nice. What is that? Let's go through that. Matzo ball soup. And, you know, my mom makes it, and I used to love eating it growing up. And I started wanting to really make it in a restaurant setting. And I was working on one, and I made it for Sawa once. and I was like, yeah, I do this thing and I get the whole chicken and, you know, it was like really chef-y. I do all these like different things and I grind up the legs and turn those into like creploc and, you know, actually put the liver in that one and, you know, it's like a liver and chicken creploc or, you know, render the fat and use that to make like soup mandals, like the little crunchy things that go in.
38:49Just try to use up like all the parts of the bird and I made it for it and I'm like, you know, but like I don't know, I'm struggling. I don't know like what noodle. I don't love Manischewitz noodles. Like, they're fine. Yeah. Okay. Not, like, the greatest thing. You know, I tried some, like, gone to, like, Chinatown and tried some, like, lo mein noodles and, you know, things like that. And she's like, well, you just do ramen noodles. Yeah, sun. Get sun in the picture. Sun noodles, man. The best noodles in the world. Absolutely. Yeah. So, yeah, he made it. And we were all eating together. And I was like, this would be really good if you put ramen noodle in it.
39:22I love that story. Right. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely using the full bird is clearly part of Japanese technique. So it's definitely like a great merging of culture. So what's what's happened with Japanese food in America over the past decade? Big question, but I feel like you could answer it really well because you're in it and your restaurant started 10 years ago and feel like Japanese cuisine has been at a focus in many ways. And it's exciting. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, 10 years ago, I guess ramen was starting to be popular, right? And, I mean, we went to Ipudo a couple times on a date. You waited in line probably.
40:07Back then, Ipudo's lines were like an hour or two hours. Yeah. But, you know, I was busy. Yeah. And it was like one of the best places to get ramen. And I was so excited. I was like, oh, my God, I can get really good ramen in New York, you know? Yeah. And, you know, it wasn't just sushi. The ramen's, like, you know, coming up. And, like, now it's, like, you can get almost anything, like, udon, soba, hot pot, you know, name it, curry. It's great. You're a good point there. These single-topic restaurants have certainly popped up, and you're going to get Japanese Bakery, too, and Burrow. I mean, I shout those guys out as much as possible.
40:45And Dumbo. I love those guys. Yeah. You have a chapter called Pancake and Friends. What a great name. What does that mean, Pancake and Friends? You know, we were kind of thinking, oh, these are chapter, it was like kind of a lot of misfits, you know? Yeah. We couldn't fit it into other chapters. So, like, let's get them all together and, you know, call it Pancake and Friends. And then people interpret it in a different way that, oh, it's you eat it together with your friends. Oh, it's a double meaning. Nice. Oh, yeah. So that could mean that too. Aaron, what are some of the friends that we're seeing in there?
41:25Because I want to ask you about the pancake part. Yeah, pancake adjacent foods. Things that are intended to get your hands messy. Maybe they don't require a plate. Maybe you walk around eating them, like shoving it in your mouth. But some of the adjacent ones, like the harumaki, the spring rolls. Yeah. which is one of my favorite recipes in the book. We also do nagaimo ikayaki, which is like a Japanese mountain potato and squid pancake. Yeah, well, we have the okonomiyaki. We'll get to that because I want to ask you about that one. But you've got some yakis going on. And pizza. And we do pizza in there because we, you know, the book is about the food that we eat at home.
42:10Totally. We love, I think, making pizza at home. And Sawa makes this amazing pizza dough. and the kids love like putting the stuff on it and um yeah it's great okay so sawa you grew up in hiroshima and and so there's a hiroshima style konomiaki and then there's other konomiakis right um kansai style kansai sapporo as one i'm sure now what does that mean i've used i see it in print hiroshima style on konomiaki what does that mean exactly when it has that the town that you grew up in? So Hiroshima-style okonomiyaki is very distinctly different from other types of okonomiyaki because they don't make the batter all together.
42:55So you get like a thin crepe batter type of thing and that's the base and then you put in like katsoboshi powder and then you put in like a mound of cabbage. and then mando bean sprouts, and then you put pork on top, and then you let it cook a little bit, and then you flip that over so the pork is on the bottom, and then you cook it down a little more, and then you take a noodle, like either ramen type of noodle or udon type of noodle, soba or udon. Yeah. And you put that on, you take the whole thing and put that on top of the udon or soba, and then you beat an egg. Yeah. And you break an egg on top of the pan and break it a little bit.
43:45And then you take the whole thing of okonomiyaki and put it on top of the egg. And then you flip it over. And then you put the sauce and mayonnaise and bonito flakes and omori. Such an iconic dish. It's just the most Japanese dish. Love it. It's beautiful. So good. So good. Now, growing up in Hiroshima, now this is a city that, you know, I like to hear about growing up there, what it's like. Because it's a city that in America we, you know, associate with tragedy and, you know, history. What was it like growing up there for yourself? What's it like in that town? The city is beautiful. It's got rivers going through the city and it's delta.
44:30And, you know, there's parts that is very city-like. And there's a part that is very, you know, there's a ruin, you know, the atomic bomb dome is still standing. It's a museum. Yeah. Like a memorial. Yeah. And I mean, if you're growing up in Hiroshima, you get like a peace education, at least like, you know, a couple hours. And, you know, when it's closer to the summer and, you know, you learn like it's a thing that you should not repeat. Some people dying. It's, yeah, it's a sad thing in the past, but, you know, it's very peaceful. Yeah. So the city, there's obviously a big memory and learning from the past, but it's also a vibrant town and a peaceful town.
45:18And should I go there? I've never been to that part of Japan. Oh, you should go. You should go. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, definitely go visit the Memorial Park, visit the Miyajima, you know, go eat some sea eel, anago, oysters, momiji manju. Aaron, what was your first visit there like? Oh, it was great. I was, you know, I think probably like you said, you know, you don't really know what to think as an American, you know, going to Hiroshima. And you're like, obviously you have sort of preconceived notions. but for me the first time I went I woke up Salwa was already there it was actually it was right after Hurricane Sandy we had just moved in together and Salwa hadn't been to see her family in a while so she went and she was there for a week and then I went and met her and so I woke you know the first thing I did I got off the plane and I met her parents for the first time which is like pretty you know a little nerve wracking and then I got to her parents place and her mom like greeted me with like a big platter of harumaki of the spring rolls and her dad just started like pouring soju and then I was like I think I'm gonna like it here and we woke up the next morning and Sawa took me to Miyajima which is about like a 20 minute train ride sort of from the center of the city and it's a little, this very small sort of sacred island you take a ferry there uh and it uh it has a very famous um tori like a big arch um that sort of looks like it's floating on on the water when the tide comes in it looks like it's floating and it goes out and it's just sort of right there and there's a beautiful shrine and um you can go to the top the island has like you know a little mountain go up to the top and you see the whole view of like the whole city and the whole area And, you know, water is beautiful and blue and there's all these beautiful mountains coming out of the water.
47:21It kind of, you know, super coastal, like blue sky. And you're like, OK, this isn't really, you know, what people have in mind when they think of, you know, Hiroshima. They think of like the tragic past. But, you know, for me when I went and then, you know, my first time there, she took me to the Peace Memorial Park. And I was really amazed by the sort of the tone of it where it wasn't about being sort of victimized. It was sort of being like, you know, this terrible thing happened, so how can we as a world learn from it and hopefully educate people to be like, you know, it's awful and this should just not happen anywhere else.
47:57And I think that like that sort of message was really beautiful because instead of being like, oh, look at this terrible thing that happened to us and, you know, which is true, it was just sort of trying to turn that negativity into like a really positive message for the world. And that to me is like what a lot of the city is about. It's really beautiful. Like she said, the food is great. Like, yeah. I would like to make it there one day. I'm going to try to do that. I want to segue and hear more about the book and cooking. And I notice a real proclamation about the sando, the Japanese short for sandwich, but very iconic.
48:33Why, Sawa, why have Japanese cooks mastered the sandwich so well? I think it has a lot to do with bread. Yes. Milk bread that they make. It's like a perfect, like it's not too hard. It's not too soft. Yeah, yeah. Milk bread's perfect. Yeah. What's your favorite sando? Do you have one? My favorite is the veggie deluxe sando. What's on that? It puts pesto and tomato, really thick cut tomato and eggplant, like, you know, sautéed plant and zucchini. I mean, we're talking cabrizi. This is like an Italian sandwich right here. Come on, let's get real. He's very passionate about sandwich. Is that your favorite, Aaron?
49:24Yeah, I love it. It's all these different layers of vegetables and textures and that herbiness from like the shiso pesto. But I also really love like a good like chicken katsu sando, like just like fried or it doesn't have to be chicken or pork or whatever, but just nice, like breaded, fried cutlet, you know. We had to cut, we had a lot of sandos to put in the book. We had to cut a whole bunch of them because we were like, oh, we love this sando and that, you know, and obviously it's not like a book about sandwiches. But yeah, and there's only so many, you know, there's only room for so many recipes.
49:57Yeah, you had to pick your favorite sandwich. Of course, of course. But yeah, I mean, yeah, sandwiches. Speaking of frying chicken, what is it about karaage that is so, like, to me, it's the The best way to fry chicken is Japanese-style fried chicken. What makes it better? It's the marinade, and then there's no bone. So it cooks quicker. The marinade is key. What is in your marinade in the cookbook? It's got garlic and ginger. Yeah. Sake and soy. Yeah, it's an amazing combination. So you basically marinate it overnight, and then you put a batter or dredge. Dredge. Yeah, just a dredge. Just simple like flour, cornstarch.
50:40And I think one of the things that's great about the Japanese fried chicken or just fried chicken in general is that it's one of those great foods that's really good. As soon as you take it out of the pan, it's like hot and crispy. It's also like really good after it kind of sits a little bit. And it's also really excellent the next day when you pull it out of the fridge cold. So it just has all these different, you know, it's just good. And so what kind of cut are we going with? Like are we doing boneless thighs? I mean, as a home cook, I think there's something about when you go to a great Japanese restaurant, you have karage.
51:09There's something about the butchering that's different. It just feels like there's, like, better surface area. The tendons and the fat kind of mix together in a good way. I know that sounds kind of gross, but I think it actually makes sense. Like, it's like there's structure and texture there. Yeah, we do the thighs. I mean, you know, if you do the whole leg, you get a little bit of tendons, you know, down from the drumstick. So we kind of stick to the thighs, which is, you know, going to be really tender, really flavorful. You know, we keep the skin on too, which kind of then sort of, you know, some of it sort of sticks more to the meat.
51:41Some of it starts peeling off and then just gets a little like, like gribbiness, like kind of stuck on the side, you know, like. So you get all these different, you know, textures. You can definitely do it with the white meat work. It would be delicious. Not as fun though. Just going to say. We're dark meat people. I mean, is there any other way for frying chicken? Not in my opinion. Although actually, though, we do at the restaurant now, we've kind of pivoted and we actually do one with lion's mane mushrooms. Love that. And those are pretty awesome. They, you know, when you pull them apart and they have this sort of similar like fibrousness to it.
52:17And then, you know, they're mushrooms. They suck in that same marinade. Same sake soy sauce marinade? Yeah, same marinade. And it pulls it in and you get all that same flavor. Obviously, it doesn't taste like chicken. No. It tastes like a mushroom, but that texture is, like, really meaty. Better. And it holds up really well. I love that. Lion's mane. Yeah. Lion's mane are great when you get them at the farmer's market. Yeah. Tuna tataki. I feel like the photo is beautiful in your book, and I'm like, I want to do that. But then I'm like, I don't think I can do that. I feel very hesitant to do, like, kind of a very lightly seared tuna.
52:50So what's the best technique? How do I make it look like that photo in the book? Well, don't cook it too long. Okay. You know? But you want your pan to be, like, really hot. Yeah. Like cast iron or steel. Yeah. Or you can grill, too. Yeah. You know, hot, hot. And just be on top of it. Just count in your head. Was it, like, 30 seconds? Do you remember, Aaron? Like, in total, like, on each – you know, maybe, like, 15. 30 seconds. And then you rotate. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and also, of course, you want to buy really good tuna for it because you want to buy something that you're going to – would want to eat for sashimi, you know.
53:25So if you go to a fish market that you either like trust the fishmonger or, you know, a Japanese grocer where they're selling like tuna specifically for sushi, like that's great to buy. And then you can just, you know, sear it really, really, really, really fast. And then so what's the crust on it then in your recipe? We don't do a crust on the tuna tataki. It's just a little olive oil, a little salt, a little pepper. Very simple like that. And then the sauce is sort of sesame. me. I love that dish. I mean, I think it's a good point. Like if it's sashimi style tuna, you're going to have a good product, right?
54:02You have to look for that. Yeah. Let's talk about Terese, Aaron. You worked there. Terese Town Specialties. We just had Rich on the show. You worked there like you, Mario and Rich, like doing like the mozzarella. I'll link to them in the show notes. What was that early day like? Because I feel like that restaurant is pretty legendary. It was great. You know, I had worked with Rich at Avoce. He sort of trained me on the pasta station. We worked together for almost three years there. And once Andrew Carmelini was the chef, once he left, we all went different ways. And Rich, you know, he contacted me and he's like, hey, I'm opening up this restaurant with my really good friend Mario.
54:41And I had met Mario, like, just a couple of times from, you know, all hanging out. And he's like, yeah, you want to be a part of it? And I was like, sure. I got nothing else, really. And it sounded really exciting. I knew Rich is, you know, super talented, and obviously so is Mario. I mean, it was, you know, it was definitely, you know, I think any restaurant opening is really, really challenging, and, you know, working with those guys, I mean, they're really driven. They're really focused. They're really perfectionist, I would say. So I learned a lot, you know, learned a lot about flavors and, you know, the way they think about food.
55:12And it was a great experience. It was not easy, you know. And then I left, you know, I was there for, like, the first year, And we'd gotten all that really great press, and we went from just doing, like, sandwiches, you know, and then doing lunch and dinner. And it was really blowing up when I left, but it was really time for me to kind of go. And think about Shalom, Japan. Yeah, yeah. Eventually, like, soon after that, you know, you've been doing it for 10 years. So how is it running a restaurant in Brooklyn right now? I mean, we talk to a lot of chefs. Post-pandemic, it seems, like, challenging, right?
55:48Exciting. You have your livelihood back. It's nice. Yeah. A lot of customers are coming back. And yeah, it's like nothing happened again kind of feel, you know. But yeah. I mean, during the pandemic, it was very, very difficult, of course. We had to close for three months, you know, open up, but back up. But it was really, really slow. And we tried to do the takeout thing. And, you know, it was just not happening. Yeah. I mean, your restaurant, when you visit, and I've visited many times over the years, it's not a takeout place. It's like a restaurant. You go in and have an absolute joyful experience, and there's just great energy there.
56:32So, yeah, it doesn't translate well to the takeout-only model. But you're back, and business is good, right? Business has been great. Yeah, I think this holiday season, this past one, was really pivotal because the previous two were so challenging. with, you know, in 2020 with, you know, with people not being vaccinated in 2021 with like Omicron and really like this last year where things didn't hit the fan, you know, culturally and, you know, with the virus, like people think you could really see a shift in people's like energy and like the way they were thinking like, oh, like I'm not going to have to cancel my Christmas plans this year.
57:14Like, oh, like this is going to be like kind of normal. Like, you're not going to have to sit outside in, like, 12-degree weather. And this year, it was really great. I mean, we had our best holiday season really ever. So can't complain. I can't let it go. Gabriella Gershenson, your collaborator, I have to say, what was it like working with her? We spent a lot of time talking about the recipes. And, I mean, we became really good friends. And because we, I mean, our first, it was like five years. We met five years ago. Yeah. And we started like talking about the book and, you know, we met like every week.
58:00She has been coming from the city to Brooklyn and sat with us. And, you know, she was typing and we were talking and, you know, we did that for like a long time. Yeah. and she's got like i don't know she's very detail oriented and she wants to like she's everything out of out of you she's terrific yeah i've known her for a long time i've never collaborated there in a book but she's terrific absolutely terrific so that must have been fun to collaborate yeah and also watch her you know since pandemic we had to switch to the zoom meeting and like watch her type um you know like really fast and like change the sentence to say it in a different way, like, you know, 10 different ways.
58:44It's just amazing. Great. Well, shouts to her. Now, we usually ask guests about a book project, but because you've just released this book, I want to reframe this question. So if you could open a dream restaurant concept without the burden of time, meaning you have 10 years to make it happen, or the burden of budget, meaning you have all the money in the world to execute this restaurant concept. We'll start with you, Aaron. I'm extending this intro to give you time to think because I'm just dropping this on you because I just feel like I want to hear. What's the dream restaurant project? Well, for me, one of my favorite restaurants that I've been to is Primo up in Maine.
59:27Sal and I have been there a couple of times. And, you know, it's so beautiful. I mean, have you ever been? No, I haven't. Yeah. You know the chef, Melissa Kelly? Yeah, definitely. The name. Yeah, so, I mean, she's got this beautiful Victorian house, and her kitchen is, like, you know, sort of flooded with light, you know, and old wood floors. It's a beautiful restaurant. And the grounds of her restaurant, you know, she's growing her own produce. She's raising her own chickens and pigs. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's really, really beautiful, I mean, what she does there. And we've gone a couple of times.
1:00:05We've seen her operation kind of grow, too. Like, you know, the first time we went, I don't think she was – the garden wasn't as big. You know, like it's gotten bigger and bigger. And I think what she's done there is really amazing. You know, but every time that I think of it, like, oh, that would be great to open a place like that, Sal always reminds me. She's like, it's hard enough, like, running a restaurant. You want to also, like, grow some agriculture and farming too. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You want to, you know, so, I mean, I don't know how – I don't know how practical – it's certainly not in Brooklyn.
1:00:34No, you got to find a new spot, but, you know. Yeah, but, you know, and I'm sure if you guys are in Brooklyn, you know, got her on, she would talk to you about all of the immense challenges and why, you know, of running her place. But it's a really great spot. So like a version of that, Savo, what about you? Do you have a similar thought or is there a different idea? I mean, I would do the similar, you know, thing, but by the beach. Yeah. I love it. I love catching up with you, Savo Kochi and Aaron Israel. Thank you for joining today's podcast. Thank you for having us. Thank you.
1:01:08The Taste Podcast is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com. And make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.
From the publisher
Chanie Apfelbaum is the author of a really cool new book, Totally Kosher, and the force behind Busy in Brooklyn, a go-to resource for kosher recipes and thoughts on modern Jewish living. We wanted to have Chanie into the studio to talk about the many nuances of modern kosher cooking, and to ask her some pointed questions about her modern Orthodox life. Chanie was super game to talk about many topics, including how the recipes in her book are not only for the religious set. We hope you enjoy this talk.
Also on the show, we catch up with Sawako Okochi and Aaron Israel, founders of Brooklyn restaurant Shalom Japan. They speak about their great new book, Love Japan.
MORE FROM CHANIE APFELBAUM:
Busy in Budapest [BIB]
This Streusel-Topped One Might Be My New Favorite [The Kitchn]
A Brief Chat With the Author Who Wants to Modernize Kosher Cooking [NY Mag]
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