216: Pete Wells

28:03And like, you know, and then honestly, like 90 % of it for me comes down to like, oh no, I have dinner in two hours and I haven't invited anybody. Who's going to say yes? You know? Hannah Goldfield said pretty much the exact same thing on the show. I know the meal is coming, but finding the time to like put all the pieces in place is so hard. It's also like, who are you dining with? because, I mean, I've had work meals when I was reviewing. Like sometimes you obviously can't talk about social shit that much during the meal. And it can't be like let's catch up with an old friend because that's not going to help you.

28:43There has to be kind of like a neutered voice on the other side. Yeah, for somebody. I mean, which tends to work out to like someone you go out with pretty often. Yeah. And there's nothing earth shattering that's going to be discussed. And they also know the drill a little bit and they know, you know, that we're going to order more food than we'll possibly be able to eat, you know, and we're going to order some things that no one is particularly interested in eating. And even if you have your heart set on the liver, you may only get a forkful of liver before I take it away from you. You actually pulled out of their hands.

29:27It must be you have to go over slight ground rules, but you don't make it tacky like that. I've dined with you in the past. I got one invite. I feel like I should get more. I mean, I'm always available, Pete. That's interesting. Okay, send me a reminder. I'm kidding. I mean, I feel like you need consistency. You need someone who you can call all the time and they can be there and show up. Right, right. I mean, the worst people are like your friends who just had a baby. Because you can never call them. No, they're going to cancel. You can never. Right. Well, you're right. You can't call them and say, hey, we're going to have dinner in two hours.

30:01And if you plan it a month in advance, they're going to cancel because he's got this weird pink rash on his. Yeah. And, you know, I'll try. But, you know, I maybe can't get there at 7. I have to get there at 745. And it's like you're going to like auto mix and like you got to have someone sitting next to you. Right, right, right, right. Do you dine out with your colleagues on the food desk? I try to, the ones who understand my weird, you know, aversion to scheduling. I've been trying to do that more often lately. Do you ever run into like Hannah or when Ryan was reviewing? Or do you ever run into some of the other guys at the restaurants and give them like a little nod at a distance or say hello?

30:44Ryan a couple times. One time I sat next to him and it was really hilarious because he had this huge, you know, camera. you know huge camera lens and where was it at oh it's a place that closed not too long after i think he and i together closed it oh no um uh you say that i don't think i've ever seen yeah um no i'm just kidding about that the place actually like it went through a couple of you know it went through a couple of yeah attempts to revive itself let's tap into that i think let's it's a good it's a thread to tug on i mean your review in particular also ryan and hannah and anybody but you know hannah's not really writing negative reviews that often and you're you're writing start reviews and honestly how do you feel when a restaurant closes especially like the high stakes guys you know the the you know and tatiana that was went the other way and you gave it zero i mean that closes uh maybe not true fair maybe not i mean that's a really i mean that's that's like an alternate universe hypothetical.

31:50What if I had given Tatiana zero stars, right? Yeah. Like the forces that would have been unleashed by that would be like, you know, like Avengers level, you know. Yeah. Yeah, it would have been. Because, well, just because he is really good and like it would have been inconceivable. Yeah, it would have been an unfair take because he's got the pedigree and he's a super decorated dude. But, I mean, let's take another example. I have not really done one of those reviews since the pandemic started with the exception of Eleven Madison Park in its vegan iteration. And that did not have stars on it.

32:36But it was pretty clear that I was not buying it. Yeah. And you went many times, at least three, probably more. I actually don't remember. I know I went twice, but I might have – I weirdly don't remember. I think I went three times. It might have just been twice. And they're still open. It didn't kill them. And I didn't think it would really because places like that now, they have so many other things going for them. They've got Michelin going for them. They've got World's 50 Best. if Michelin and World's 50 Best and the New York Times and, you know, what else is out there? Yeah, Eater. Eater all dumped on your restaurant in the same week, you might have a problem, right?

33:22But now they have all these sources of support. So, like, you know, like just Michelin alone can drive so much traffic. Well, yeah, especially from tourists. I mean, let me ask you, do you regret any reviews over the past couple of years, even going back a decade? You know, I would like to sound like a nice guy and say, oh, I was really too harsh to this place and I should have given them a little more credit. But instead, when I think of reviews, I regret they're ones where I was nicer than I really meant to be or would have been if I'd been honest, you know, where I've kind of bent over backwards to not be too negative.

34:05I kind of regret those. I think, you know, it's very hard to calibrate these things and get it at a point where, you know, it's honest, it's communicating what you want it to communicate, but it doesn't seem too mean, but it doesn't seem too nice. Well, there's a bit of a coded language with some of these reviews. I mean, you definitely, especially if you know your flow and your voice, you know if Pete's not feeling, sorry for you in the third, but it's what it is. If you're not feeling a place, you kind of get it right away. Yeah, and those are some reviews that maybe I wish I didn't write as often.

34:36Like I'd rather be enthusiastic every single week, you know, or at least have something to say or have a reason I'm doing this review. Look, everything else on the menu is dog food, but there is this one dish that if you get it, you won't believe how good it is. That can be a great review. That was sort of what was like the Señor Frog's review was like, OK, this is a terrible restaurant. But like you may end up having the best time of your life there. Have you run into Mr. Flavortown Guy Fieri since your review? No, no. We've been kept separate. Our handlers make sure we never meet. Your security.

35:20I feel like you and Guy would have a hell of a round of drinks. I don't know. I really respect Guy Fieri in some ways. I don't know anyone who's met him who doesn't like him. Exactly. There must be people, but like everyone who meets him, certainly in food media, they all come away saying, oh, he's so great. Well, what I like about him is not even about him personally. It's more what he represents, which is, you know, bringing business to these low margin businesses around the country and like saving restaurants. Literally every single dime he writes about them or does a show. Yeah. I love that.

35:56Without like yelling at them and telling them what dickheads they are. You know, like it's – I mean, and honestly, to be able every week, many times a week, to actually convincingly say, oh, that's so good. You know, when you know it's not always so good, right? No. Like it's not always the best thing you've ever tasted. But to be able to do that convincingly and sort of from the heart, I think it was an incredible skill. It is. And he can read the room really quickly. It's like if you watch the show, he's clearly reading and producing on the fly with the fist bumps. I have a lot of questions about New York dining, and I have a few restaurants I wanted to bring up.

36:44We talked about Masala Wallen Sons. I feel like that group, Chintin Panjian's group, Unapologetic Foods, is just doing the most terrific work right now, hands down. I think it's so interesting. It's like somebody came down from the mountaintop and handed them this tablet. And they looked at it and they were like, oh, yeah, we'll do that. You know, because it just sort of his career before Ada was just kind of, you know, it was like, to me, good. doing some interesting food, but also indistinguishable from a lot of other chefs doing Indian food. He was doing Masala Wala in some way out in Queens.

37:25There was the original Masala Wala and whatever the place that became Sema. I'm blanking on the name right now. But the first version of that space, you know, I liked it. I reviewed it actually, but it was like, you know, there were many other chefs doing similar stuff. And then like one day he just got hit by lightning. And it hasn't been the same sense. Well, I mean, it says it right in the group's name, Unapologetic Foods and New York City diners. Maybe there was a time when there had to be apologies and caveats and all sorts of footnotes and compromises really for the type of cuisine, if it's either Korean or South Asian or even a Northern European.

38:09But now there tends to be more of this boldness about this like just love of culture, of one's own culture, and it's represented in the restaurants. Yeah, I mean, I think that's definitely true. People, certainly people within the culture want to see a really full, meaningful expression of it and not some watered down. Like I make this dish at home and I make it a thousand times better and here's what he did to make it worse. But I also think that the amazing thing about the success of Unapologetic Foods to me is that they found non-Indian diners who wanted that too. Just wanted it completely.

39:00and it's not like people go there on a dare it's not like they go there because like oh you're going to eat testicles and love it I mean they go there because it is delicious yeah there's like mutton on the menu and it's being made two days in advance there's a limited amount of mutton available yeah right I mean it's just like they just sort of cracked the code in this way that I find completely fascinating. Because it's because it is the, I think, okay, I'm not a restaurateur, nor am I an immigrant to this country, but I think it is the dilemma of the immigrant restaurateur, how much of the culture can we allow in?

39:46Yeah. And how much of the culture will be allowed in? How much of what, you know, I know and love from the place that I come from, will people here even understand, let alone, you know, want to taste, you know? And it's hard. It's hard. I mean, I think, you know, you have restaurants that serve an immigrant community, and that's where you can often see the least diluted version. Well, Queen's Night Market is in the top 10 of your list. Right, right. That's a great example, I think. But the minute you start trying to serve people from outside the community, people who didn't grow up in the culture, then it immediately becomes like, oh, will they take this?

40:35Will they accept it? How much do we need to compromise? Do we need to tone down the spicing? Can we really serve kidneys and testicles and uterus? I mean the answer is resounding yes and the culture is definitely – It is, but it also depends what neighborhood you're in, I think. I mean, there's all, you know, if I think if mom were, you know, in certain neighborhoods of Manhattan and they hadn't already established themselves as this sort of daring Vietnamese pop-up, they would have a very hard time serving uterus, you know, that would just not fly. I'm not sure the uterus actually flew on Forsyth either.

41:14There's some doubt about whether that will ever come back. But he did it once. I think it's great. Yeah, and it spoke to him using organ meat like that. Have you been to the new superiority burger yet? I've not. I usually wait like, you know, about a month at least before I stick my nose in. Sometimes I can't wait that long. Sometimes you can't because you can't book or you just write for a newspaper. It uses in the name and you have to review places that are new. Yeah, right. And that's one that I'm curious about. And if I ever found myself there like, you know, late at night, you know, before a month goes by, I might slip in if I can find a place to sit.

41:53I think you'll find some spots there. I think they'll maybe seat you. I can't wait to go myself. Now, let's talk about Korean food in New York. All right. I loved your Kimchi Belt piece that you wrote maybe four years ago. You were exploring many restaurants in Queens. It obviously resonates with me, having written a couple Korean cookbooks and living here for so long. I love to see Chodongal at number 40. Yeah, that's like – That's like an OG spot, right? So much. It's like – that's – I mean I never talk like this. I think someone's taking control of my mouth or something. But it's a real like if you know, you know place.

42:32And I wish there were more of those on the list actually. And I wish there were more Korean places like that where, you know, but, you know, going back to the 90s, that's been a place that's like it's in Koreatown, but it's just outside Koreatown and doing completely its own thing. Well, it seems to me that observing Korean food in New York, it's like 32nd and 35th have their spots. But there's obviously been an expansion down to 31st. Yeah. With Her Name is Han. And, you know, to me, that's the best in New York. uh, right now, personally, I think that they're always on point and they're, they're just getting better by the, by the year.

43:13But I want to know what's exciting you. I've been joking to friends that say Pete's probably working on a big Korean piece. Cause it's like, so his wheelhouse. And you know, I mean, you're very familiar and very knowledgeable. Um, I'm not, but I probably should be, I mean, uh, um, you know, we were talking before, I was really excited by, by Kaejun. Yeah. Um, Just because it's, well, it's a fun place. She sort of gets the spirit of New Orleans into this restaurant without it seeming cheesy. No. I mean, I've been to a million, like, you know, and they're so dumb. It's such a hard flavor profile, Danielle, outside of New Orleans, too.

44:00Well, that, too. And then to be marrying it with Korean food at the same time. It's wild, but like the stuff she's cooking makes total sense to me. Sometimes it's much more one than the other, but it all makes total sense. It all like she just seems to like, you know, she understands Korean food on a pretty deep level. But I think her understanding of like New Orleans food is at least what the flavors are supposed to be like is pretty unusual for a New York chef. She's amazing. She's a Cafe Baloo, I believe. She worked there and has a real pedigree. Are there any other Korean restaurants just off the dome right now that you really enjoy that maybe didn't make your top 100?

44:43I'm putting you on the spot. I'll say what you're thinking. Well, you name some. Because you wrote me back when I asked you to be on the show and we were catching up on email. You're like, Matt, well, in return, you have to give me two spots. So I guess I'll give you this opportunity. Hong Chong Chong Dukkobi on second floor on 32nd. Have you been there yet? I've not been there, no. That place, I think for Duck Galbi, which is like a, you know, a spicy fire chicken barbecue kind of, it's very common in Korea, less common in the States. It's not common here at all. It's a really, it's nice. Yeah.

45:15Yeah. Good. That's one. Good. I'll be checking that out. Her name is Han deserves more flowers. I feel that place is super good. It's interesting to hear you say that you think it gets better all the time. because when I first went, when I was pretty new, I thought, wow, this is so interesting. They've sort of like broken down the menu into this sort of more digestible form and it's full of young people and like they're sort of like, you know, like taking the traditional food but modernizing the way it's presented and that's just like so brilliant. But I didn't think the food itself was the most brilliant thing about it, you know?

45:56Fair. I mean, that's your take. But that was years ago. You got to go back because like the hambo pajan, the seafood pancake, there's no better. They understand proportion, which I like. Like they have a mini balsam. I really like the way they serve their bibimbap or their bap dishes, their rice dishes. I think it's all about proportion. They used to do a faro bibimbap, which I liked, which I hope they bring back at some point with a really nice samjian. Oh, that sounds great. It feels to me just – it feels really like Korea. And it feels like it's a little, it's just kind of there. You know, it's one of those restaurants that is busy but there.

46:32It's busy all the time. It's busy. The other one is Sarigol in Fort Lee. That place is good. I will go. I will go. I mean, I always have a good time in Fort Lee. Yeah, they do. I mean, Fort Lee. I would be happy to, you know, let the town of Fort Lee use that on their billboards. That would be a good one. I mean, there's soondae gookbap, which is like a blood sausage soup, which I think is hard to find in Manhattan. They have a really good one. Yeah, it's hard in Manhattan. It's a good one. I mean, what fascinates you about Korean food? I feel like you've written just great pieces. Oh, boy. I think it seems endless to me.

47:14Like, it just seems like you could just explore it and explore it and never come to the end. And I also feel like it seems to have less in common with the cuisine of its neighbors than any of its neighbors have. Not any of them, but, you know, like what Japan got from China is so clear. And then, you know, they did something with it. But often what Korea got from the countries around it is not as clear because it's just been completely transformed into something. And then when you know, you're like, oh, that's that dish, right? But it's not always apparent. It's just that things get worked on and worked on and transformed.

48:10Yeah, it's really – I mean the peninsula nature of it, the size of it, the size of Indiana. like the, you know, population density in one part and having rural, you know, rural communities that have a different cuisine, like Gawando Mountain Cuisine, for example. I just feel— Right, the coastal cuisine. Coastal cuisine. And, you know, just the absolute exceptional dedication, the dedication to getting, like, kimchi, like the fermentation right, like just as a culture. It's just wonderful to write about. Yeah, that's a great example because there's like everybody ferments at home. Yeah. It's part of the culture.

48:54And yeah, and I think when it's expressed in America, you know, you've got ingenuity and industrious communities and it just – and plus you've got a lot of wealth in Korea and chefs coming here and going to CIA and then opening new concepts. It's just exciting to see this moment for Korean American cuisine too. That's a second layer that's happening too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And right. So there's the older school, which was maybe just to serve other Koreans. But now there are chefs in New York who are very, very self-consciously like representing the cuisine to the world. Yeah, like Juwa is a great example, I think.

49:35You've written about Juwa, I believe. And of course, Auto Mix, Auto Boy, Soul Salon, The New Place. I mean, there's definitely different permutations of it. It's cool. Pete, I want to ask you some quick hits while we close. I have to get your take on a few categories. First is obviously just the best slice right now. We talked about pizza a little bit at the top. But is there just the best slice in New York? You know, I've revisited a bunch of these places recently. The one that I didn't get to revisit recently that I'd love to go back to is Mama's 2. I just like I'm fascinated by by all of their slice all their slices up there yeah the vodka slice is pretty great yes right so good right yeah so I'm not I'm not gonna say that's the best slice but it's like it's the one I would go to like if we were gonna get a slice right now yeah let's go up to the Upper West Side appreciate that what is there a cuisine we talked about a lot of world cuisines around the you know cuisines from from the world outside of America Are there cuisines that maybe should be recognized more that's happening in New York?

50:40I think that Italian-American cuisine does not get the respect that it really deserves to this day. You know, to this day. Pat Stengel's going to like that one. I love it. Talk about us Italian-Americans, how great we are. and it's a thing that New York does really really well that I think you're not going to find in Los Angeles or San Francisco you know like there is no equivalent of Don Pepe's in Los Angeles and there's there's no you know Emilio's Bellotto right and and Emilio's just such a right one of one and there's no Rayos I mean I know there's technically a Rayos in Las Vegas right but there's Technically.

51:27But that's not – I mean, yeah, come on. So, you know, all of that food, which is – you're not going to find it in Italy. No. You sort of have to be here and a couple of other East Coast cities. Like I haven't eaten in Italian-American restaurants in Philly for a while. But, you know, it used to be great. Providence has its share, right? New Haven. But New York does it so well, and it's still, I think, not really taken seriously. I mean, everybody complains about the prices at Carbone, right? And why do those prices seem high? Okay, they're high. They charge a lot of money, but they seem high to people because it's for Italian-American food.

52:11What am I doing paying$30 for a plate of ziti? What are you, crazy? Which is unfair for any cuisine. They say that you shouldn't be paying X for Y because of it being it. You know, like looking at food costs, looking at multiples and all that stuff. Right. I mean, if you said that this is, you know, or if you were, you know, a northern Italian restaurant, this is the food of Amelia Romagna. We know you can charge a lot of money for that food. Yeah, Residora. Look at that guy. I mean, I love that. He's doing fine. But somehow you can't charge those prices for southern Italian food because it was the food of immigrants for so, so long in this country.

52:53And all of the baggage that comes along with that, you know, it's not supposed to be fancy and it's not supposed to be expensive. Let me ask you, your favorite Midtown lunch spot, it could be a restaurant, it could be a truck. Shout out to Zach Brooks, friend of the show, Midtown Lunch founder, had to give him the respect. But it all went downhill when he left town. I know it did. And now he's running Smorgasburg in L.A., which if you go to L.A. and you have a free Sunday, you got to go. It is truly the best place to eat food in L.A. I'm sure. I'm sure it's incredible. Okay, Midtown Lunch. I never eat here anymore.

53:31I must have some tricks up my sleeve. Your office is here. If you ever go in, you're probably a big office guy. Yeah. Okay, so wait. Let me think. I mean, all of my – all the things I'm going to say are just so obvious. You know, I will always get an oyster pan roast at Grand Central Oyster Bar. I will always do that. Great call. I love that choice. Year-round, too, you don't need to wait for the fall and winter. No, no. Always good. It's good any time of year. God, what else is there? Can I help me out here? I mean, I haven't had a really good food cart experience in Midtown in a while. It's been a while.

54:15They're there, but I'm wondering. This is a selfish question. I guess it seems like maybe there's a column there for you to check out Midtown. I did. I actually did. I passed one a couple months ago, and the line was so long. And I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute. I've missed something here. And so that is on my list somewhere. Was it Berea? No, it wasn't. No, it wasn't. It was a halal cart. Oh, cool. But it was just like, you know, the halal cart. Yeah. And it might have been a TikTok thing too. It might have been. Probably. Now, last of these quick fires, I just have to ask, we're getting into the summer months, traditionally an ice cream season.

54:56What is your favorite scoop in New York City? probably always go down to morgan stearns and just have some weird ass thing that i've never had before you know um like the durian well i mean i've had that once i'm not sure i need to have that again but like even though i it's you know in theory i prefer like a fattier richer ice cream And I thought he was like selling, you know, a world-class con when he started talking about how, oh, no, actually the lower butterfat content allows the flavor to come through. But, you know, in his case, he's right. The flavors come through so well and they're so interesting and challenging.

55:42And like, you know, the Vietnamese coffee is like so intense. It's great. Nick Morgenstern, shout. A few more questions. Pete, you've been a great guest. You've been such a sport. You've let me just ask you a million things that's on our minds as listeners. How do you think about coffee? I mean, I think about it when I first wake up in the morning. Great answer. I try not to think about it after 12 noon. Yeah. You know, because although honestly, I don't know. It's so great to have coffee like at the end of dinner. I don't always allow myself, but it's so good to just have that espresso. It's a beautiful thing, especially after a couple of drinks, you get to get that little boost up.

56:30But I ask because it's a micro theme here. We talk about coffee often, and it's a passion of mine just talking about it. As a critic, do you look at coffee service at the restaurants you review? Do you look at what they're doing, what they're making? I never expect any restaurant to have decent coffee. I like – why? I'm stunned if they do. Wow. Because it's just so unusual. I'm stunned if the coffee is decent. Wow. With the exception of like, you know, there's the, you know, $300 tasting menu where they come out and like, you know, like roast the beans in front of you. And there's that whole process, which is not really not what I want.

57:10Thank you very much. But like, you know, you can get some individual great cups of coffee in restaurants. But in general, you know, I don't know. I think they like it's very hard. And so many places I go to now just don't do it. I think because they know they're not going to do it well. It's absolutely the facts. They're all facts. I mean coffee machines in restaurants are typically mostly for staff. Right. I mean it's really what it is. Yeah. And, you know, especially for tasting menus to do like a pour over and really have like like provenance and have like a real point of view is challenging with all the other millions of things.

57:45The counterpoint is that we give a shit so much about wine and beer and like there's some liais who are really putting in the work. But then coffee somehow. I know. I'd rather have – I'd really rather have tea because then like – Yep. Like, you know, even like a decent brand tea bag, you know, if the water is hot and I get to control how long it steeps and like I so much rather have that. If the tea is good, all the better, you know. but I would rather have mediocre tea than bad coffee. Tea's great. We're working on a big piece right now about tea and I can't wait to share it. We've asked all of our anonymous critics for their request for our illustration.

58:31So I'd like to ask you, Pete, we're going to do a food this time. So if we could draw you as a food, what would that food be? God, I mean, I'm just probably like a, Like a preserved lemon, you know? I love that. Why? A preserved lemon? I'm salty. I'm sour. You know? I'm surprisingly aromatic. And you've got great utility. You're writing once a week, the Review of the New York Times, a preserved lemon is a real workhorse in the kitchen. It's true. Not every fruit can do that. Pete Wells, we ask all guests on Taste Podcast, if you could write a cookbook or food culture book without the burden of time, meaning you have no deadline, or the burden of budget, meaning you have all the money in the world to execute this dream book project, what would that be?

59:25Is this real? Because you work for Random House, right? This is real. This is real. So we can make this happen. We can leave this room and go out. I can't. I got to say, it may have happened before. I mean, listen, like no joke aside. I mean, joking aside, I'd love to see you write something about your life someday. I would like to do that. I think that would be fun to do. I mean, I don't know. What could I really bring to the world? I mean, I'd like. Or like report it. I mean, you've got a deep career in reporting and editing too. You know, other people have kind of done, you know, the food of the Caribbean, but that's something that just fascinates me more and more all the time.

1:00:17You know, the connections between the islands and the mainland and Africa. Like, I just get more and more enchanted by that.

1:00:33And then, gosh, I don't know. I think there's like so much about, you know, Chinese food that I don't know that I would like to know better. And New York City is just an absolute phenomenal place to eat Chinese food, right? Yeah. It's just amazing. Right. And yet there's so much that we don't get here too. Yeah, that too. I mean, like for years and years I used to say like, you know, New York needs more expensive Chinese restaurants. And now we're starting to get them just because the demographics of Chinese people in New York have been changing. Pete Wells, thank you so much for joining the Taste Podcast.

1:01:11Thanks for inviting me. It's great to be back.

1:01:18The Taste Podcast is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumber. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.