221: Alicia Kennedy

26:08Well, Chris Best, the co-founder of Substack, has been doing a lot of interviews, it seems, about bundling. It seems like it's a real future. The thing that needs to happen, because I think that people need to buy the food like to support all of these people. Like I know that I'm getting a lot of support, like Andrew Jenjigian, Wordloaf, getting a lot of support. But, you know, the the people who haven't had the lengthy careers that we've had, you know, coming up, like you want to kind of help pull them up. But at the same time, we're not in a place to, you know, kind of do that. So how do we do that?

26:42And I think that, yeah, a way of bundling food newsletters together would be really cool. Is there like a price that works? I know it's like very challenging to like put a price on this. I mean, I think if you're getting like five newsletters for$100. A year? Yeah, I think that would be cool. And I would opt into that. I would get less money maybe from that subscriber, but I would be happier to be part of that, the cohort. Yeah, and the cohort would there be like a real marketing swell for all of you and you'd all rise. and I love it. I mean, it sounds like it's a magazine, to be honest. Exactly.

27:14And that's like basically a magazine for$100 a year magazine. Yes. Which I pay for what? I pay for Monocle, New Yorker, so much money. Sick, you're a Monocle. Okay. I am a Monocle subscriber. This is so great. Let's unpack Monocle because like I read Monocle religiously. Andrew Tuck and Tyler Brulé, like their newsletter writing is like fire. It's like so anti-American. I think I learn a lot from them. I learn a lot from them structurally about how they approach the magazine, how they approach voice, how they are really unapologetically them, even though you could 100 percent make fun of them for how expensive and bougie so much of this magazine is.

27:54Tyler, on Sundays, I would drink coffee and read these news on my phone every week. I'm like, this guy. The ask is out to get him on the show. Oh, you should totally do that. But I would listen to that episode 100 percent. Like I'd be the first person clicking. But I think that there's so much to learn. And I subscribe to like Apartamento. Like I love magazines so much. And I just put – I'll throw money into it. But there's so much to learn from Monocle, I think, and how they've created their business. It's really cool. And you are a magazine veteran. You've worked at New York Mag in the golden years really and under Andrew Moss and like definitely agree that they're like anti-online.

28:33They have no website for Monocle, which is insane. And they have like this newsletter that's free. and then they sell their subs for like 125 plus a cool tote bag, which I have. Yes. I just like, I'm glad you brought up Monocle. It's very unexpected. But I can't let it pass. Like we've definitely mentioned your book, No Meat Required, The Cultural History and Culinary Future of Plant-Based Eating. Now, I got the PDF like two days ago and I will read this so hard and have you back. Well, Penguin Random House is distributing, distributes Beacon Press. It's Beacon, right? Yeah. Yeah, Beacon Press.

29:05Yeah. Hopefully you can get a copy. Yeah, I'll get a copy. I'll buy a copy, actually, because that's what you do. But what can you tell us about the book? Because I want to have you back really, like, this fall and talk about it. But this book seems like there's a collection of your work. Not, like, literally a collection because it's new material, but it seems like it's, like, really, like, an exclamation point of the work you've been doing in front of the desk. And there's also a lot of, like, original reporting, too. Well, it's just – it is a collection of my work, I think. from when I started to write about food or when I started to be a baker who ended up a food writer.

29:41I think that what I learned doing like a small artisanal vegan baking business is still the most important stuff I've learned about food. It taught me about food costs. It taught me about food origins. It taught me about what organic and fair trade really mean. And it taught me, you know, what people are willing to pay for things. It taught me how exhausting it is to stand on your feet for 14 hours a day. And so that really still is the basis, I think, of my knowledge and experience in this world. And what I try to do in the book, I think, is honor that place that I come from. Because for me, what I call alternative food, like vegetarian, vegan food, what we now call plant-based food, is for me like such a significant cultural event because when I was like a young teenager growing up on Long Island, it signified to me being cool to not eat meat.

30:43And so I, which is I guess like I don't know if that, that's a very normal teenage girl experience. And so like honoring that experience, honoring the like person I was in my mid-20s who started a small vegan bakery, kind of accidentally. And then honoring being a food writer who like made this my beat for a long time. I think all those three people are the people who wrote the book. Wow. Those three people that I've been because it does really combine like research and interviews and, you know, all the all this reading that I've done on the subject. But it also combines like my experiences like the first time I ate tofu or um going to food swings with my friends and like wanting to like it but really hating it and and like obviously the importance of the superiority burger tofu fried tofu sandwich to my life um we can't go and not mention Brooks exactly Brooks is the best yeah no so it sounds like there's a lot of Alicia Kennedy in this book and sorry for the third person I just love doing that um making you blush but it sounds like uh this is not like uh a third person, you know, focus, but there's definitely you switch into first.

31:57They're super, it's a lot of me. Um, and I hope that that's okay for folks because I do think, and I think I say this in like the introduction, but it's really hard for me personally to connect to a book about food if I don't have the eye in there, like not just my eye, but the writer's eye, like I need to know where you're coming from, uh, because I need that context to understand how you relate to food the eye is so hard we struggle with that a lot with our assignments like I feel like the eye is you know it's a real crutch in a lot of writing you just have to have the chops to do the eye and the and I hope I have the chops I have an editor who once was like you really own the eye and I was like that's the best thing you could say to me put that on a shirt that would be really fun um speaking of your writing I just there's a couple you were like og taste like you wrote for it with Anna and I like early days, 17 and 18.

32:48And there's a story about the great hippie sandwich that I'm going to link to in the show notes. I love that piece. So what can you tell us about the hippie sandwich? And I know you've been doing some work around hippie food a little bit. Yeah. So I get to be in a documentary about the book, Hippie Food by Jonathan Kaufman. So cool. And that was a big part of why I wanted to write this piece about the hippie sandwich, which is like, uh, like the hippie sandwich is a sandwich that you don't know until you see it. and then you know exactly what it is. It's like there's something orange, there's something green, there's sprouts.

33:20Sprouts, okay. There's something brown. Definitely sprouting. Like it's very sprouting. There's a lot about Anne Wigmore in my book, frankly. And so it's something that is just a real moment for folks. Like if you get into the hippie sandwich at any point in your life, you just have a different kind of energy, I think. A different kind of knowledge. Can the bread not be soft? It has to be soft. And I think that that's why it's such, to me now, would I want to eat that? No. Like, I really don't. I really only like a sandwich. This is, I don't know if this is a terrible thing to say. I really only like a sandwich on toasted bread, except a bagel.

34:02Okay. You're like, so you're untoasted bagel, but everything else is toasted. I firmly disagree hard. I need squish. I'm like, kombibi, like the, you know, Japanese milk bread sandwiches is like the best sandwiches. But I hear you. I hear I think BLTs are like the best, you know, obviously without the bacon. But I think like toast is great in the sandwich. Yes. You had one more story that I wanted to bring up is the Goya adoba. Oh, that was a funny one. So when you say funny now, I don't think funny, but I think like maybe maybe it's not your favorite piece. I bring it up because that product, it resonates.

34:37because we'll link to that in our Friday newsletter and it'll get like tons of clicks. Oh, cool. People still read it. But what were you trying to say? What do you mean by funny? Oh, no, it's funny because it starts out with like my parents' divorce and how. Yeah, there's that, of course. Well, I'm laughing about it. Everything's fine. Owning the eye, baby. Owning the eye. But like my, so yeah, the reason, so Goya Adobo was always in the house, but it wasn't like a huge part of anyone's diet until my parents got divorced because my dad couldn't cook and all he knew how to do was put Goya Adobo on everything.

35:06and so then that's when I was like hey what is this? Where does it come from? Like obviously like Goya did not invent adobo of course and like I had been going to Puerto Rico a lot to report stories and you know I'd seen chefs doing their own blends and everything and so I'm like all right like let's talk about what this really is and where it goes. Obviously right now it's you know we've seen Ileana Masonette with Burlap and Barrel like sell out completely of her. She does a saltless adobo in Sazon for them Yeah, we don't need to buy Goya in particular. You don't need to buy Goya. But, like, it is such an iconic, especially in the diaspora product, you know.

35:44Yeah. I can't let this pass. Okay. You were—it was you and others, and please name them by name. You organized this symposium, a food writer symposium. I believe you did it twice. I went to two of them. And I think it was, like, 2018, 2017. 2018, 2019. now it was amazing and like i know you put a ton of work into it and i just want to go back to that because it was like a real big really big moment because it was like while the james beard awards were happening you were like kind of like fuck the james beard awards we're gonna like have our own moment and bring a bunch of great writers together and i learned a lot i met people i think it's where i met you face to face first it was like i wish you would do it again i we're gonna we're trying wonderful so let's talk about this and what inspired that because i can't let it i but then the record.

36:31So me, Leila Schlack, fabulous writer and editor, Emily Stevenson, who does a lot of great cookbook work, sort of more behind the scenes. And we just decided to do something called the Food Writers Workshop, where we had one day four panels on various things to try to kind of empower younger and emerging food writers and try and demystify, sort of de-gatekeep, I guess, the industry for folks. When not many people were addressing that issue in food writing. Yeah, it was. Not as many. It was earlier days of these kinds of conversations. And what we did was we recorded it and we also put it out as a podcast so that it would be freely available to everybody.

37:13I think the most the for us, like the most significant part of what we did, other than bringing all these people together, which was great. and especially for like folks like you and Anna to have come and like been available uh to the the kids I mean the kids the food writers who were really interested in doing this work like it was really cool because it did bring a lot of like it did bring people in the world together and people wanted to be in the world together and like there wasn't a hierarchy of anything yeah and there was a time when I think food media was still maybe olden days and there was like a lot of gatekeeping happening and yeah yeah but it was i think because the venue we did it at littlefield in brooklyn the first two times we did it and they charged us one thousand three hundred fifty dollars for the day and the capacity was a hundred people so we charged everybody thirteen dollars and fifty cents for their tickets and then we so that everyone if everyone who if we sold out we'd pay for the day and no one would make any money and everyone cooked and you i think you made some everyone made amazing we had uh yeah we had a person who cooked samosas uh samosa shack she's up in kingston new york and we yeah we had but we had pastries donated i think bienqui brought us coffee and pastries the first year and um yeah so and then anyone who could afford to give more money there was an option for them to give a bit more and with that we paid for food so like it was just like we didn't make any money off of doing it and we didn't want to but we thought that was the only way to kind of make it equitable or you know a lot of things in food media a lot of awards a lot of access cost money and we simply wanted to say this is something you can do with 13.50 yeah thank you for doing it I just want to say the record and like honestly So you hope you can continue this or your partners can because it was a really – and the programming too, of course, was all about.

39:09And like the four panels each day, just bringing together thoughts and just like connecting with writers that we talk on Instagram and Twitter all day. Yeah. Like just having an IRL moment. That would be awesome. Yeah. We're trying. So you're in town to interview Tova Danovich about her book Under the Henfluence, which is like, come on, that name is – that rules. But I'd like to hear a little bit about this book because you're moderating this panel. And I just I thought it was really a cool concept. It's really cool. So she was in New York for a long time. And then her and her husband decided to move to Portland, Oregon, buy a house and start to raise chickens.

39:43And so she takes us on her personal journey. But also her grandmother had kept chickens and on a farm. And she goes to a hatchery. She goes to, you know, all these different folks who are involved in the work of backyard chickens. She goes to a conference and like a place where people judge show chickens. That is so such a great conceit. Exactly. And so it's really cool because for me, obviously, you know, I don't eat meat and I think about animals in a way as, you know, we have to think about their consciousness as well. And so her book does a really great job of showing why people, for the most part, don't think of chickens the way we think of dogs or cats and or even the way we think of cows, I would guess, or horses.

40:35But, you know, that there's more chickens slaughtered per year for food than there are people on the planet. That's a staggering stat. It's very staggering. While you think about that, you look around and like, wow. Yeah, yeah. This every year. Right. And so she really brings humanity to the chickens. And, you know, the ones that are her pets, you kind of get to know and you kind of get to watch her journey from eating chicken occasionally to being like, I can't eat chicken because I have these guys. So I'm coming to it from obviously the vegetarian perspective, but also like it's really funny because I see chickens all the time in Puerto Rico in San Juan.

41:16Like, and I'm always like, you hear them too. Yo, you hear them. But I'm always like, what's up with that? Like, what's their life like? And we have this park near our house where we walk our dog all the time. And there's tons and tons of wild chickens there. And so you really get to see their life cycle sort of. And it's interesting because I think that people who don't grow up in a rural area have no clue that chickens will like go in a tree to sleep. Yeah. I had no idea. I had no idea until I actually went to Puerto Rico and I saw that happening in our place. It was like, right, that was a while.

41:45Yeah. That's like a squirrel. I know. So it's like it really changes your perspective on these animals. Yeah. And you really like I've seen hens like freak out at my dog because it got too close to the chicks and everything. And like you see them like really they're families. And it's really interesting to see them live this wild life. And so she obviously has a different perspective as someone who's keeping chickens. And I think I would probably want to be someone who maybe gets into this someday. So it's going to be a cool conversation, I think. Yeah, and then the context of like, you know, crispy chicken sandwiches are like the most meme-worthy fast food item in the past couple years.

42:19Yeah. Very interesting topic. I'm glad that you are there to moderate. I love it. Alicia, we asked all guests on Taste Podcast if you could write a cookbook or food culture book without the burden of time, meaning you have no deadline, or the burden of budget, meaning you have all the money in the world to execute this book. What would that be? I think I would, and this is funny because honestly it's probably just my next book proposal. I would write a book where I travel to the source of my favorite ingredients and write about them from a cultural standpoint as well as an ecological standpoint.

42:54So, you know, something in the vein of Eating to Extinction by Dan Saladino meets The Book of Difficult Fruit by Kate Lebo, let's say. Yeah. What's – I don't want to spoil the show. Give me one ingredient. One ingredient? Well, whiskey. Irish whiskey. Oh, so I was going to say, are we going to Kentucky or are we going to Ireland or are we going to Scotland? We're going to Ireland. We're going to Ireland. Your cocktail writing is like low-key the best, by the way. Thank you. What draws you to that? Because it's cool that whiskey is your first choice. And I think we think of you as a plant-based writer.

43:24We think of you as an academic. But you like write bomb cocktail writing. I am also a drinker. Yes. Yeah. Drinker of alcohol. Yeah. So I love – I just love bars. I love the stories of alcohol. I love the culture around them. I love Irish toasts. I love in Puerto Rico, we have in Old Selma particularly, I always say it's like a town of dive bars. And obviously these are also spaces of problems, but these can also be spaces of such beautiful interactions. And so I love that tension as well, that something that is a vice is also something that we can look at the beauty of how it grows from the ground and is distilled.

44:05And, you know, this history of alcohol and spirits as the byproducts of agricultural waste. So, you know, I think that it's just there's such a fascinating story there that is more than just the idea of either, I want to say, connoisseurship. Yeah, like the Bibles or the dictionaries of the encyclopedias. There's something between connoisseurship and vice where I think that is where we really interact with cocktails and with alcohol that I think is the really rich space to talk about. Yeah. So like Rosie Shep's drinking with men, I think of that. Yeah. Like just culture. It's great. I need to reread.

44:45I've actually been thinking I need to reread that book and I just took note of it on my bookshelf the other day. Yeah. Alicia Kennedy, wow. That was really great. Thank you for joining the Taste Podcast. Thank you for so much for having me.

45:03as we are key thank you for coming on the taste podcast it's great to have you thank you for having me i'm sorry to lead with this but i just have to know uh what your take is on emily in paris to start things off emily in paris you know honestly i don't take it that seriously i feel like it's more of a parody and you know life in paris is not like that for anyone I know, not me, none of my friends. So, you know, Paris is just something that sells. And just the same way that there's so many influencers who sell Paris who don't actually live here, you know, they just sell the pretty bits. It's just not realistic, but you know, who cares?

45:41Let them make money and people come visit Paris. So that's my kind of feeling there. So do you watch? I've watched that. Yeah, I've watched some of it. It's a really diplomatic answer. I mean, who hasn't watched some of it to know what everyone's talking about? Yeah, I feel the same way. And I just have to say, I learned this last night. And this shows why I need to do a little apology for the French pronunciations I'm about to do as we talk. But I didn't realize that it was supposed to rhyme and be Emily and Perry. And I think that clearly no Americans do because no one pronounces it that way.

46:15But it's so funny to me. And no one in Paris says Perry, like, I mean, Emily, Perry, I guess maybe, I don't know. I just I mean, I watch some of it, of course, to see what everyone's talking about or if there's like episodes and it's, you know, something some things about it are funny. But. You know, it's it's that's not life in Paris. No, it's not life in Paris. And for for listeners who maybe don't get the connection right away, like the reason why I'm asking Asri is that she is an American in Paris and Emily in Paris, I think, is just one example of this kind of extended fascination and love that.

46:50I think people all over the world, but definitely Americans have with Paris and all of the fantasies around it. So I'm excited to talk with you about maybe the non-Netflix version of life in Paris and all of that. So to start, I guess I have a selfish question because I'm hoping and dreaming of coming to Paris this summer. But I'm curious to know, like if you were giving me or like someone that someone that you liked recommendations on coming to Paris, like where would you say to go? Where would you say not to go? What are your tips? Um, well, my tips are kind of, I think some like, we know, okay.

47:26An etiquette tip I would say is, you know, say bonjour when you walk into any shop, any cafe, anywhere you go, just the first thing you say is bonjour, even before you ask someone for, you know, a question about help or what you want, because that's the first thing that will tip off whoever you're talking to, whether or not they're going to be nice to you or not. Say bonjour everywhere you go. um and another thing like another etiquette thing is you know even though you're visiting Paris and you're a tourist you know the people that live there that work in the shops you know this is their real life so I think it's it's polite if you if you're in a shop or you're at the flea market and you want to take a picture to ask first like if you're at someone's stand or if you're at the market um I you know I even someone who lives there I think like a couple years ago I realized you know, you have to do that.

48:19Cause I, you know, I took a picture at like one of the, the Bucaniste along the Seine and that guy got so mad at me. And he was just like, I'm out here all day selling books and nobody's been buying books and it's been rough. They just show up to take pictures for the backdrop. And so I think like, if you don't want, you know, a, you know, a local to yell at you and kind of ruin your experience, just ask first before you take a photo. I do not want to be yelled at. So I think that's a great, I love the etiquette tips keep them coming honestly um I mean those are my two big etiquette tips really but I would say like you know for stuff to do you know stop at lots of cafes so you know while you're that's something you know when I have friends that come visit like don't just go to the ones that are recommended by someone like you know if you're strolling around a neighborhood and you're doing a bunch of shopping um you're going to see some site, you know, just pop into a cafe, have a tea, have a coffee, have a glass of wine, have an orangina, just all day long, pop into cafes.

49:17And that, you know, I think that's just like a nice like representation and feeling of what it's like to, you know, live in Paris. And, you know, be a flaneur. Don't just follow a checklist of like what to do in Paris, you know, be a flaneur, you know, choose a neighborhood and stroll around, get lost a little bit, you know, just let your eye kind of pull you down a street that you want to check out. So I think that's another one. And always go to always go to a thrift store or flea market. You know, I feel like it's a great way to find a little souvenir that is super special that you definitely won't find anywhere else.

49:53And it, you know, brings a special memory about the place where you're in, you know. Yeah, I love that. I feel like going to flea markets is one of my all time favorite activities and the ones in Paris seem to be so special. I feel like the concept of being a flanore and walking around is really interesting to me in Paris because to my knowledge, the city isn't on a grid system. So I feel like you can wander a lot more. Is that true? Yes, absolutely. Paris is the best place to get lost. You know, like the Marais is like this medieval little area where, you know, definitely you can get lost. You know, there's no zero grid in Paris.

50:30So, you know you can definitely get lost in the area like the marae and you'll just find cute shops cute galleries you know um beautiful streets beautiful giant doors I think that's so being a flannoyer is the best I think it's like the absolute like even if you're just gonna say you know because you have a bunch of things you really absolutely want to see great you know say look this day after I see this site I'm gonna wander around the neighborhood of that site you know like if that's a way for you to do it um so I think I think and another big tip for for um a tourist coming to Paris is definitely spend spend a moment sitting on the canal or the Seine just sit there have a picnic or just take a bottle of wine or a soda or nothing or just sit there with a book and just, I don't know, be in the city.

51:25We are romanticizing doing nothing. We're romanticizing getting lost. I love all of that. I'm curious, like if I wanted to go, are there some neighborhoods that are like better to go window shopping and, you know, maybe are a little pricier and then others that are better to like actually buy things? Like, what would you recommend? Well, I am kind of a left bank kind of girl, but if I, if I'm doing shopping, whether window shopping or actual shopping, I definitely would go to Saint-Germain. There's so many great shops there, whether they're like galleries or, you know, where, you know, things you cannot, probably can't, you know, easily buy and take home.

52:00But then there's just great shops. There's Le Bon Marché over there. You know, all kinds of designers. I don't know what that is. What is that? so le bon marché is one of the big department stores um so it you know it you know has a bunch of different levels it has the grand epiciaries so it's like a giant um like epissary food shop where you can go in and you know buy food from different countries or like um different regions but then in the main shop it's all the design you know all the designers on the main floor jewelry, cosmetics, clothes, everything in the Beaumarchais. It's a great store and they have lots of pop-ups coming and going.

52:42So, and that's also near Saint-Germain. So that's why I just say like Saint-Germain is a great area to just window shop and rail shop. I love that. You need both. It's such a cute neighborhood. Uh-huh. And on the flea market topic, I want to get some insight into, you know, what you look for and what you're like as a tastemaker. So I'm curious, like what your most prized French flea market find is, and then maybe like a holy grail that you're still looking for. That is hard. And it's like asking me to pick one of my favorite children. There's so many things that I am excited to have found, but I guess if I could just name a few, there was a silver ice bucket I found that have these beautiful swans for handles like swans um just coming out of the sides of it I think oh my gosh I totally regret selling that wine bucket um and I still can see it when I close my eyes it was so beautiful oh yeah yes and then I also found a full 70 70 piece set of cutlery.

53:48It was gold for me and silver. And it was, I mean, full, I bought it like in the Loire Valley, like this little, you know, pop up flea market that was like around a lake. And I couldn't believe it was something that I had spotted somewhere like two years prior at like an expensive flea market. And there it was like on the ground at this like pop up flea market, a similar version. So that was that I also sold. And I regret that too. That's the downside of being somebody that I guess is sourcing and selling things. How do you, do you ever like decide, actually, I'm going to keep this for myself?

54:27Yes, there's things I keep for myself. I mean, there was a bar cart that I found, like a round bar cart, and I styled it, I photographed it, I started writing the product description, and then I never posted it. You know, I also did that with a mirror, a Rococo mirror that's in my room, wrote the product description, took the photos and never posted it. So yeah, there's things I definitely keep for myself that I love, love, love. But, you know, I'm still on the hunt for like a Louis 15 chaise or a Rokami couch. It's like, you know, one of those like reclining, beautiful couches. Something you can like faint into kind of.

55:03Exactly. The Rokami faint couch. That's exactly what I would love for my room. What color do you want? Actually, I think I would actually just find something in wood and then reupholster it like in some pure fray fabric or shoe marker. This is how I know that you're a professional and that I'm not, because I feel like if I see something that isn't my color, I like don't even consider doing something else to it. But of course, that makes so much sense. No, but you know, that's the thing about flea market finds is that you find them and what the beauty of it is that they have a story and they have a use that, you know, once was a 19th century use or 18th century use, you know, that was passed down, you know, from families, but now it's yours.

55:42And you can use it for whatever you want to use it for. And you can change it and add your own style and story to it and keep, you know, keep its life going. Yeah, I really love that mentality. Do you have an approach when you go to a flea market? Do you do a lap before you start digging? Or is it just kind of going by feel? I go by feel, but I've also been doing this for so long now that I can literally walk down aisles and look at stands and know if I'm maybe going to find something. That's like my first unexplainable radar. The spidey sense. Yeah, exactly. And then And then I go and I know, and I can immediately see that something needs to be cleaned and it's going to be amazing.

56:29There's things that I know that, you know, anybody just walking around and be like, oh, that looks junky. And I know that I have clients or, you know, after I've cleaned something up and photographed it, like it never stays in the shop, but most people just kind of ignore it. So I've definitely like kind of sharpened my, that skill of like knowing what people want and knowing what, you know, has potential. Yeah, I think that is a really underrated skill to have. That is something I'm trying to cultivate. Do you feel like there are any things you look for? Like if a stall is arranged a certain way or you see like a piece of furniture that you know is interesting or it really is just that skill that you've developed over time?

57:07Yeah, I think it's just something that I've just kind of developed over time. So, you know, I have friends that always are kind of like, how do you go to the flea market and come back with bags of stuff? And I go and find one thing and I just, I don't know. I've just I've sharpened a skill. And yeah, I mean, and I think it's hard to kind of say, like, if there's, you know, specific things that I could tell anyone, because yeah, that's a hard, that's a hard one to answer. No, honestly, I love that answer, because I feel like it's enabling me that I just have to go to the flea market all of the time so that I can one day reach a semblance of your level.

57:46So now I have an excuse to go shopping, which is, which is even better than knowing what color wood to look for. But you know, what's interesting is that French people, they all go to the flea market all the time. Like it's like, I feel like in America, people go to the flea market if it's just something that they, like if they like vintage things. I think that a lot of people just like, you know, they don't go if they don't like secondhand things. But here you could be, you know, I'm friends with a designer who makes like amazing contemporary stuff. And she goes to the flea market all the time.

58:17You know, she goes there, They go there every weekend. You know, you draw inspiration, you get ideas, you know, you meet people. It's a very social thing. And through that, you just even just walking around to then look and then meet a friend for a cafe, you might see something. Yeah, I love that mentality. I grew up in Los Angeles and I have, I love vintage and all of those things. So my sister and I would go to the fleet all of the time. And I think that, especially as a young person that was trying to figure out what aesthetic I even wanted to aspire to be into, like seeing all the options was really helpful.

58:49And I can imagine that being similar in terms of like decorating a home and trying to decide like what changes you want to make. Maybe you see something there and then that gives you that inspiration. Yeah. And just to touch up on that, like what you just said is, you know, taste. It's also about, you know, learning what your taste is and then refining that taste. And how do you even learn that just by doing and looking? I mean, this is a controversial question, right? Because people are kind of like, can you learn taste or not? I think you can learn taste. You know, obviously, like I studied history, so decorative arts.

59:28So I kind of had like a little bit of a base, you know, there's something of, there's the base of, you know, learning about different objects and time periods, but I think you could have not studied the decorative arts and just realize that you're curious about something and pick up a book or go on the internet. And then you kind of just play around and then you, that, that is sharpening your tastes. It's just, it's just like food. You know, you might buy something like, Oh, it doesn't work. I don't like this type of food anymore. I don't like this object this style anymore. You resell it to someone else who does.

1:00:00Definitely. And so I want to talk a little bit about your book, which is called Joie de vivre. Tell me that was terrible. I'll say that again. In your introduction, you pose what I would say is a very French existential question about the difference between joy and happiness. And I'm wondering if you could just kind of unpack that for us a little bit. What is the difference? Yeah. So, you know, in my intro, I say, you know, I had a French friend that was like, oh, how can you write about joie when the French are not happy all the time and they're grumpy and they complain and they strike? But yes, of course I can, because, you know, happiness is a state of being, right?

1:00:40It's, you know, maybe you're going through a hard time or maybe, you know, the weather's gloomy today or maybe you have like you know a bunch of work piled upon you um on your desk but joy is really all about like small simple little things you know it's quick it's spontaneous it sparks curiosity it sparks on many things and so joy is more like okay I might have this pile of stuff on my desk that I have to do but you know what I'm gonna go meet a friend for lunch really quick outside in the park for an hour, you know, and then you kind of, in that moment, you're sitting with your friend in the park and you're talking, you're feeling joy, you know, it might be, um, you go outside and you, you know, you're, you know, you got bad news and you're not feeling really good, but you decide to go outside and go, you know, uh, you know, pick up some groceries, but instead of going to the big grocery store where you will be alone in your thoughts of your bad news or, or whatever you're grumpy about, but you're talking to the, the formagerie guy and the, the wine or the florist.

1:01:55And you're kind of, you know, they're like, Oh, how are your kids? And that, that, you know, that sense of community, that, that moment of connecting with someone will bring you joy. You know, it's like connecting with other people, talking with other people, you know, that someone's sharing, they're like, Oh, you know, here's this, this cheese. It's, and then suddenly you're like, Oh, really? They telling you something you don't know. Like I didn't know that, you know, cheese is seasonal. I remember just like in the line for cheese and he's telling me all about cheese. And it's like, oh yeah, when I rode my bike around him, suddenly I'm having this connection and that's joy.

1:02:26It's just like, and I leave the cheese shop just being like, you're like bouncing on my step and not thinking about whatever, you know, grumpy moment was happening or, or, you know, so happy. I feel like happy, happiness is kind of just like a state of being while joy is just like, you know, You can always access joy. Yeah, I like, I think joy and cheese are definitely connected, at least for me. And what do you mean about cheese being seasonal? I don't know if I know that. Yeah, because I learned this from going to my, you know, my cheesemonger was just like, you know, I go in there instead of, you know, if you go to the big grocery store, you're just staring at a wall of cheese, you don't learn a thing.

1:03:02You're just looking at all the cheeses and you just probably grab the one you know. But, you know, I went to my cheese guy and was like, oh, I'm having some friends over. and I you know he's like how many I tell him he's like okay well you need four different cheeses and he tells me the different types and I was like well yeah but what about that cheese that I got from you last month he goes no no no it's it's not the season it's not the season for that I was like cheese has a season he goes of course think about it if it's a if it's a cow cheese the seasons change so there's a certain season where the goats I'm sorry goats or cows are eating very very green grass.

1:03:36You know, the sun is different. The rains are different. There's a season where it's really cold and the, you know, the plants, the grass, everything that they're eating is different. So what they eat and the cheese that they make. So that's why cheese is seasonal. Yeah. Well, I find that to be like very beautiful. Like, I guess, I don't know why I didn't think that that would be a flavor that you would notice or like something that would affect like a product like cheese that is being made by the cow that's eating the grass. But of course it does. Yeah, exactly. Because the seasons change. He was like, the seasons change, of course.

1:04:09And I was like, oh, yeah, you're right. He's like, yeah, so there's a season for things, you know. And I mean, just I guess you learn that when you go and you talk to a cheesemonger or you go to the fruit and vegetable stand and they start telling you about, you know, what's in season and how to cook it. Definitely. I've been interrogating the farmer's market folks over here in Brooklyn, like wondering when the spring produce is going to come in, even though I know it's going to be at least a month just because I'm so over the root vegetables and I'm hoping that they'll give me good news. Yeah.

1:04:43Well, seasons are coming faster now. Yeah, that's true. Someday there will be asparagus year round. I know, kind of scary. So this idea about like these little luxuries is reminding me about something else that I know you've written about, which is like the case for the good China. Could you tell me like a little bit about that piece and where it came from? The case for the good China comes from a blog post that I wrote that kind of grew into a bigger thing. And it's a story that I tell about my mother had this wedding China that she was given and she absolutely loved it and kept it in this cabinet with, you know, glass windows and drawers protected.

1:05:22And, you know, you could see it as you walked by it, but she would never use it. Never, never, ever use it. She was worried it was going to get broken. Somebody was going to destroy it. But she loved it. It made her so happy and it was so special to her. So I one day asked her, you know, if we could use it and, you know, she thought about it, said yes, then changed her mind. You can read the full story in the book. But the point was that my mother died and she never got to eat off at China, like nothing, not a salad, not a piece of toast, nothing. So it made me kind of realize that, you know, it was something that made her so happy, but she never actually used it.

1:06:01And I feel like we should always use the things that we love. We should be surrounded by objects that bring us joy and we should actually use them. Like there's no, and I think like that, you know, that can also apply to, I don't know, clothes you have, like you have some special sweater or dress you only want to wear, you've only worn once because you don't want it to get ruined. You know, it's, it's, it's honoring yourself because it brings you joy and it makes you happy, but it's also honoring the people that made it, you know, in, in, in, in another kind of context, I guess. You know, my point was just like, it brings you joy.

1:06:35So you should actually use it instead of letting it collect dust behind a cabinet as my mother did. Definitely. And have you used her china since? you know that's like a sad little story that I you know after she died and my dad got remarried it went to like different corners of the earth with um relatives so no I have not I never got to use it either so one day I will I will get it from some relative who took it but no this is your like John Wick origin story is you're going to travel the world and collect every piece I know, I know. I'll find it one day. Yeah, I would watch that movie for what it's worth.

1:07:13I want to talk a little bit about Parisian cafe culture, which we were mentioning a little bit earlier. I don't even know if people work on laptops in cafes in Paris, but if they do, like, were there any cafes that you worked at while you were writing this book? Yes, absolutely. People do work on cafes in Paris. When I moved here about 12 years ago, I would say no. um and then it kind of shifted you know people would kind of give you side eye if you did bust out a computer but then it kind of started to shift and now there's a lot of cafes you know you'll see people with there's so many remote workers um people with cafes people in cafes with laptops but you know when it's lunchtime you close the computer and people actually eat which is really nice so I think from 12 to 2 you really won't find um a computer but I did working a lot.

1:08:03I worked at home and then I'd leave in the late afternoon and go work at a cafe. So yeah, there were a few that I frequented. It's good to know that people are asking for the Wi-Fi password, but not eating their salad over their laptop while they're working. There's a line that's being drawn. Absolutely. And I talk about that in the book too, how important lunch is and especially to the French. Uh-huh. Is there like one or two cafes that you want to shout out as some of your favorites that you like to go to? A couple of cafes. You know, I wasn't telling too many people which cafe I was working in because I didn't want friends to come find me, but that cafe closed.

1:08:42It was called the Voyager and she retired and sold the cafe to someone else. But I did like going in there because it was really locals and, you know, it wasn't like a tourist spot. So I kind of loved eavesdropping on the conversations of locals and the things that they talked about and it kind of inspired what I was writing. But I guess like more of like a hot spot for tours, the Nemours was a great one. Like if I was in the first to kind of like sit there for a while and get lost and people watch, you know, edit photos usually because I couldn't totally concentrate with all the people watching going on.

1:09:24In the 11th, also the Petite And on the seas is another one, not, you know, not a touristy kind of spot, a real neighborhood spot that I like on this little triangle corner in the 11th. And I like it because the people that work there, you know, you can tell they're like in such good spirits. So, you know, they're happy for people to come in there and work and they don't care how long you stay. And I like that. I like that kind of energy. Yeah, that sounds that sounds pretty perfect. Perfect. And I appreciate that you were not telling your friends where you were because you didn't want them to come find you.

1:09:59I think that's a really pro move. Yeah, because, you know, to be honest, there were some cafes in my neighbors in the 11th that I would go to in the beginning. And I would just see everyone or, you know, I tell a friend where I was and they'd be like, come by. And I was like, oh, I got to go find like I got to get in. I got to focus. Yeah, I feel like whenever my friends ask me to co-work, I know that they just want to hang out and not actually do work. But somehow I feel like we're both lying to ourselves that work is going to happen. And then it obviously never does. And I wanted to ask you about what I would consider to be another key element of Parisian culture, which is Apera hour.

1:10:35And I'm curious, like if you were hosting an Apera maybe, or if you were out somewhere and you're ordering, like what would be the essential things that you would want to have? yes well you know i have to say um apro is a key element of parisian culture but you have to know that there's apro there's apro in quote you know quotation marks because one is just like your proper apro drinks and some little nibbles and the other one isn't they're saying it's an apro but you're really it's really what we call an apro dinatoire i don't even know this here it's kind of like you invite a friend over at 8 p.m.

1:11:13for an apéro you know it's a it's really an apéro dinatoire and you have to like feed people like you know enough for dinner um so so it's like snacky but enough for dinner in the second one well yes the second one apéro dinatoire so if I had to say both like the first one apéro like essentials I would just have you know really pretty bowls with just nuts and chips and you know charcuterie um I like to do crudite like crudités, you know, raw vegetables with like a beetroot hummus because I'm visual and I love the way it looks. And then, you know, I always go to Monoprix and buy this Tom Piquant.

1:11:52It's my like little secret that I've converted at least 10 people into being obsessed with. So if you're visiting Paris, walk into a Monoprix and look for some spicy tuna. And it's a nice dip. So I get little pitas and baguettes and you just kind of nibble on those things. It's like Aperon needs to be as simple as possible. It's all about like just these little crunchy little things. I mean, the point of Apero is like not to spoil your appetite. So if you're doing a real Apero, you just need nibbly things. And then for dinatoire? Yeah. If you're doing an Apero dinatoire, you know, you can include all everything of what I just said, but then I would add cheese as well as the charcuterie.

1:12:33And then maybe something heavier, like you can add like, you know, a salad or, you know, like a cold pasta dish or just something a little heavier so that while everyone's nibbling, like, you know, maybe have more charcuterie with like a pate as well, or maybe do all of those things and have some oysters as well. Just like something so where, you know, people, it's not a real heavy meal, but it's still kind of like a nibbly sort of meal. I really appreciate that there's two different words for both of these because I often find myself in the situation where my friend is having me over at, you know, 6.30 or something after work.

1:13:12And I have no idea how much I'm about to be fed or if I should get a slice of pizza before or after. And I'm always in the state of confusion. So maybe we need to be introducing words like this in English also. Yeah, I like that. So it's like apéro or apéro d 'unatoire. You know, you kind of know, like we're just gonna, you know, nibble ourselves into, you know, fullness, you know, and then, you know, and enjoy ourselves and chat. Yeah. Is there a Parisian version of, of like the dollar slice that you would get if you thought you were going to an Aperodino toire and it was actually just an Aperodino?

1:13:44Um, no, I wish there was, I really miss New York, New York city. I miss New York city pizza. Um, so no, I think people really just always go to an Aperodino toire or an Aperodino and, you know, and then like you said, kind of get tricked into one that like you're just, there's not enough food and you're still hungry. And then everyone just like attacks the kitchen and comes up with something together. Team building. I like that. So I don't think that anybody would eat, like if anyone invited you for an apero at 630, you would never eat a pizza or anything before you go there. You would just go.

1:14:22Yeah. I've learned to save that for the after move because you don't want to be too full. yeah so if you could have like any famous parisian expats throughout history over for dinner who would you invite oh there's so many interesting expats um james baldwin for sure um elsa maxwell you know she was that she was this famous woman known for throwing parties you know she staged these amazing parties with purpose like scavenger hunts around paris and um she had this lovely saying that people are like living decorations for a party or dinner so I just like love everything about her personality she had a short stay in Paris but she was a wonderful interesting person but also Josephine Baker of course and Bricktop Ada Bricktop Smith who had a club in the 1920s and was friends with like every famous expat of the 20s um and then yeah Cole Porter you can get on the piano and we can sing.

1:15:24I love a good show tune. Julia Child, of course, she's so fabulous. Yeah, I think those are, you know, MFK Fisher. Wow. This is like the dream dinner party. I just want to be a fly on the wall. People that love food so we can have conversations, you know, you know, James Baldwin for, you know, conversations about the state of the world and how things are going and, you know, some really good party girls, Elsa and Bricktop and Cole Porter to get us all singing after we've had too much wine. Ship it. I love it all. Yeah. It seems that a lot of those guests are from the 20s kind of era. Is that one that you are particularly interested in?

1:16:08Yes. It's absolutely one of my favorite eras of Paris, for sure. I'm pre-war, I'm inter-war period. um just I love it I'm definitely that's I was what I focused on in grad school I just find that such an interesting period of time yeah it's beautiful um in so many different ways and also just like the best part of the um the movie Midnight in Paris I think is that whole 20s era also I love that yeah yeah the the you know the roaring 20s and they call it les années for the crazy years in French. And now we're in the crazy years of the 2020s. I know, bring it on in a good way. Yeah, yeah. Well, this was so much fun.

1:16:51Thank you for taking the time to speak with me. Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

1:16:59The Taste Podcast is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumber. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.