231: Andrea Nguyen

30:01So pick your poison. Yeah, I do need, I think I need to try one because, you know, I have friends that grew up in households that use cleavers all the time and anything that I would use a chef's knives for, they're using the cleaver for, but then also when I'm scared to cut through my butternut squash, they're not having that problem. So I think that like I'm due for the upgrade. Yeah, yeah. And And it's really, they're very affordable cleavers. And I actually did this thing where I sent them out to my recipe testers. I'm like, who wants to try a cleaver? Try a knife. So I have about 20 recipe testers who are volunteers, and I sent them out to them.

30:38They tried different ones. And they were so excited. Because one of the things with, look, when you're dealing with vegetables, you're going to be chopping a lot. There are certain things you can do in the food processor. I'm going to tell you that, of course. But you're going to get beautiful, beautiful cuts with a knife. But I also know that it's a pain in the butt. And you're like, you know, this is a lot of mushroom you're asking me to chop up, Andrea. And I don't want you to hate me. But I'm also telling you that I would never ask a cook to do something that I would not do at least 10 times over.

31:13Because I go through a recipe that many times to develop it. And the Chinese vegetable cleaver really helped me get through it. And I think that it can be very helpful to a lot of other cooks. Shout out to the cleaver. Hey, you know. I can't believe you have 20 recipe testers. That seems like a lot. Have you amassed them over the books throughout the years? Yeah, I have. Some of them have been with me since book one. Ride or die. Yep, yep, yep. And then some of them just randomly email me and volunteer. year. Some of them have dropped out over the years and some of them have just said, yeah, I want to keep testing, but maybe, you know, they can't test as much because they have dietary restrictions or time restrictions.

31:55But I always include them. And sometimes I call pinch hitters. Call me up. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I need some help here. I think you'll really like this recipe. You're pitching it. If it's your recipe, I think I would like it. So I would just have to try it. All right, I'm going to keep your email and phone number around. On speed dial. Exactly. I'll have to get the cleaver, so I'm ready. So I'm curious, you know, you have done so many books. Has your approach towards starting a new one changed, or do you start from the same place each time? I start from pretty much the same place each time, which is, what do I have to say?

32:34What's my point? What am I saying that's different than what I've said in the past? What's my motivation? What do I, you know? I mean, I think that when you write a book, it's forever. And someone's going to pay for that book. And it needs to have some meaning. And I've had the luxury of making seven cookbooks. And, you know, a lot of them have been Vietnamese cookbooks. So you would think that I have run out of ideas. But no, I have not. Because, you know, you can come at a cuisine from many different angles. And my recipes are not, you know, they're not the same. You know, cuisine has a lot to, one cuisine has a lot to plumb.

33:20But with this book, I was like thinking about my desire a while ago to write what I consider to be an elemental Vietnamese cookbook. So the idea that what is elemental? What is true? What is at the core, the heart of Vietnamese food? And I've been thinking about this, my muse, for a number of years. It just so happened that I landed upon vegetables as being that elemental aspect. And because vegetables have taught me so much about what is evergreen and enduring about Vietnamese cooking, it turns out that it's, you know, sustainable as well. then that's why it's evergreen with a hyphen evergreen Vietnamese because it is these enduring lessons about Vietnamese cuisine and culture but it is also sustainable for your personal health and for the health of the planet.

34:15Definitely and not only is there so much to be talking about this cuisine but you yourself are changing and evolving as a person and so your approach is always going to be different as well. Oh yeah yeah and you know I've been able to write cookbooks Now, my career is strangely coming up on like 20 years of doing this. I never thought I'd be doing this for this long. I thought that after my first book in 2006 that I'd be like a one book wonder.

34:44But my publisher kept me around and they said, yeah, you know, you're pretty good at this. And I thought, all right, you know, I like doing this. But I think that over time you become a better cook. You become a better writer. you become honestly like an honest writer. And so in this book, I really laid it out. So when people are looking at evergreen Vietnamese and the recipes, like you'll see all of these recipe notes. And in the recipe notes, for example, I tell you about ingredient swaps, things that I've done in my kitchen and I've had them tested or things that I've wondered like, hmm, this is a recipe for a noodle soup broth that is made with a pressure cooker.

35:28But then what if you don't have a pressure cooker? What are you going to do? So here's like, you know, the variation using a regular pot. And then I think, oh God, you know, what if I have a, what if I swap the main ingredients for a filling? Can I make it with meat instead? Or can I make it vegan. Now, I could hold off on publishing that recipe for another book and just say, oh, look, readers, I have a new recipe, right? But I just was like, no, this is going to be your variation. Because I think the value of a recipe is being able to present it to cooks and readers so that they know that they can play with it, that they can take it in a lot of different directions if they look in the book.

36:14And so we organized it in a very consistent manner. So when you look at the recipes, please, please, if there's like recipe notes, they're like recipe endnotes, check those out because that's where I've like tucked all of this stuff that my copy editor wouldn't let me fit elsewhere. Copy editors. And then also in the margins, there are these things that we built into design called bursts and they're in green print. And there are all these extra tips that I have in there about like the weight of measurements in metric. or if there's a video tip, because I made these video tips for a few tricky dance moves that I figured that, you know, people would really want to see.

36:54And those are all housed on YouTube, as well as my website, vealworkkitchen.com. And they're called Evergreen Tips. And I hope to add to them too. So I've really kind of done my best to provide you with all the tools necessary to have fun with these recipes. Yeah, you've done a great job of that. And to me, it touches on an interesting trend in cookbooks over the past couple of years where I do think more people are providing substitutions and ways to kind of riff on recipes. And to me, it almost seems like an acknowledgement of the way that cookbook readership has evolved over the past however many years.

37:29I think that people are just so much more informed as home cooks and want to be playing with recipes anyways. Not that people haven't always been, you know, putting however much garlic they want into something. But I'm curious if you think that your own kind of cookbook readership has kind of grown their skills with you or evolved in some way. I think they have, totally. They tell me things that they do on social media and, you know, little emails that people send me and riffs that they do. And I'm also like looking online, you know, scanning the internet to see what's going on, like say in Vietnam.

38:08People are making all kinds of cool new substitutions because they're getting information on the internet about what's going on in say the United States or Australia. And so now the flow of information about food is extremely fast and extremely global. And what the pandemic has showed us is that we don't always have what we need. And so, for example, like there's this ingredient that I am pushing in the book, fermented tofu, which is what I consider to be like next level tofu. It's this creamy, whiny, cheese-like tofu. And the really good versions taste almost like a blue cheese or feta cheese.

38:56and you can use it as a seasoning. In stir fries, I make like a dip for crudités that I also like use as a salad dressing. But I was like, all right, this tastes really good, but what if people don't have it? So I thought, all right, let's see what happens if you use like shiro miso, white miso. So there's always going to be that variation in there with the miso for people. And I had, you know, the variation tested. So I was thinking about, you know, what if I didn't want to follow my own recipe, which I sometimes don't? And what would I do? Because I was fooling around with my recipes and seeing like, you know, can I break it or how far I can push it or can I come up with new flavors?

39:43And sometimes I can't, but sometimes I can come up with a different way of making something. And that's the fun of cooking. Yeah, and I feel like just listening to you talk about it, I can tell how much fun you have with that. And I think that that is really exciting to people when you receive a cookbook. Also, I think that, as we said before, you know, it can be scary to make a new recipe. You're investing your time and your money and not only in making it, but like shopping to the grocery store, getting the ingredients, bringing it back. And this idea that if something goes wrong, it's not going to turn out at all, I think can be kind of demoralizing for people.

40:17And I think to get something that has this level of playfulness in it that's saying, you know, these are the fundamentals that you have to keep, but these are the things that you can play around with can be empowering in that way. Definitely. You know, some of these ideas that I put into my cookbooks are perhaps dishes that people have never tasted, right? So I need to sell you on the recipe. Why did I put it in there? Why do I think it's valuable for you? why is it valuable to be printed in a book? And so I have to give you all kinds of visual cues and tactile cues and taste cues so that you have a sense of the pertinence of this dish to your needs and desires to express Vietnamese-ness.

41:09And so, for example, there's this recipe in there for twice fried lemongrass tofu. That's not a dish that's like super popular in America, but it is in Vietnam. And I had it like back in 2017 at like a brew pub. And I thought it was going to be like the stir fry tofu with like some lemongrass and chilies. But it was like deep fried tofu with like this fuzzy pile of lemongrass and chili on top. Fun. Totally fun. And it was a damn beer nosh. I couldn't believe it. And so I was like saving that. You know, I thought, OK, when do I get to unleash that recipe out in the world and will people really get it?

41:52And so I developed the recipe and I called it twice fried lemongrass tofu. We didn't shoot it. So that recipe isn't really a looker. But, you know, like recipes that aren't necessary lookers often sometimes super tasty. But I did like an interview with a radio interview with a chef recently. And he said to me, Andrea, yesterday I went to a Vietnamese restaurant and guess what they served? Fried lemongrass tofu. And there was a recipe in your book. And I was like, all right, I'm on to something here. Because we always like gravitate towards the same dishes, right? But there are so many other dishes to explore in a cuisine.

42:33So if I can use, you know, the space in a book like Evergreen to just push the envelope a little bit and have you try something else that would make me and you happy. Yeah, I like to see you doing that. And it makes me think about, you know, it's been, as you said, like 20 years since you've been publishing these cookbooks. A lot of them are Vietnamese. You are like kind of one of the, I think, forebearers and stewards of Vietnamese food in America. And I think that it has become much more popular. or is it cuisine over that period of time? Has the way that you like view yourself as a cookbook author and the work that you're trying to do changed with that evolution?

43:11Yeah. I used to think that I had to preserve the cuisine. And I think that when, you know, you start out doing something, you're really scared. You're like, oh, I have to be true to my heritage. I have to be true to my community. And because you want to honor that. And I really did my best ability with Into the Vietnamese Kitchen because, you know, I was trying to present the Vietnamese experience in America of immigrants coming here and trying to preserve their identity through food and always reaching back but moving forward. So there's always that movement in what I write. But over time, like with the banh mi handbook and with the pho cookbook, I was like, no, don't get stuck because the cuisine isn't stuck in Vietnam.

44:08So if you come to me and you say, well, there's only two kinds of pho, beef and chicken, I would say that is correct until you go to Vietnam. And there are pho cocktails and there is vegetarian pho. And in America, some chefs are playing with banh mi, you know, pho banh mi that are like beef dip sandwiches. And then there are people, you know, who are doing all kinds of pho dumplings, for example. So are we to say that pho is only one thing? But I think that we want to say that pho is many things and it's very Vietnamese and it's part of that creativity. That's very Vietnamese. And so when I look at that, it for me is so liberating to be part of that dialogue and to stir the pot.

44:57And so long as my publisher will allow me to, I will keep stirring the pot because I think that if I don't, then I don't get to provide the stories and the context for people to understand what the human connections to food are. And I think that without stories and without context, food just doesn't taste as good. And Vietnamese people have been here for close to 50 years. You know, my family came here in 1975 and I've spent most of my life here. Our cuisine doesn't stand still. People are going back and forth between Vietnam and the States. And the cuisine evolves. And to be able to capture that is really exciting.

45:44And sometimes while I'm trying to capture that, I discover something old too. So that's why like in the book, there's an entire chapter called Banh Mi Possibilities. It's the shortest chapter in the book, but I'm really proud of that chapter. Because when you read the introduction, you get the history of Banh Mi. But when you look at the entire chapter, you see Banh Mi is like not just the sandwich that we're familiar with, but you can have a Banh Mi lettuce wrap. You can have a deconstructed like Denny's Grand Slam. I love that one. I know, me too. I'm like, hell yeah. You know, it's like it could be a brunch item.

46:17And then you can have like this loaded garlic bread thing with banh mi. And then there's like the meatball banh mi, but it's deconstructed. And it's just like crazy stuff. And it's very Vietnamese because we're scrappy. And we're always trying to invent things that are new, that are still rooted in Vietnamese tradition foodways, but also pushing it forward. Definitely. And in that spirit of invention, I have to ask you, if you could have any menu item named after you anywhere, so like an ice cream shop or a bar or a sandwich shop, what would it be and what would be in it? I would want some kind of, well, dakbiet.

47:04So it would be like the Andrea dakbiet. The word dakbiet means special or like the works. and I would want like, I would love to have a banh mi named after me, you know, and I have like certain things that I like in banh mi, you know, I like the mayonnaise, I like Maggie's seasoning sauce, I like, you know, my pate, and it could be a vegan pate, you know, I've got like this mushroom and walnut pate or like a liver pate and different kinds of cold cuts and, you know, daikon and carrot pickle, but make sure that there's daikon in there. Because sometimes I'm looking at that pickle, y 'all, and it's like carrot.

47:45And that pickle really relies on the funk of daikon to like, just go, yeah, you know, it's, and it's, that's part of the banh mi flavor. Then you got your cucumber, your cilantro and your chilies. And it's really like, when you take it in totality, it's like a salad in bread, right? And so if I could have Andrew and Nguyen duckbillot sandwich, that would be really cool. It's like the works, you know, with like all various cold cuts, but I just named the duckbillot sandwich. So I don't know. I just, for people to just like do food well, I would just be so happy. Yeah, I think someone out there listening, make this banh mi happen.

48:30It's overdue, the Andrea banh mi. Yeah, just do it justice by putting all those things, elements that I put in there, including the daikon and carrot pickle, Maggie's seasoning sauce. Oh, the mayonnaise in evergreen Vietnamese is like my Kewpie dupe, and it's really good. Love a Kewpie dupe. Well, that sounds like a great sandwich, and this has been such a fun conversation. Thanks so much for coming. Oh, thanks for inviting me in.

49:04Kalou Henry, welcome to the Taste Podcast. Thank you, Matt. I'm so happy to be here. I love seeing you in IRL zone. My God, we have a lot to cover. We sure do. It's been a long time. It's been a while. We've traveled together. We're longtime friends. And I just want to first hear about Nova Scotia because you moved to Hudson, New York, famously on social. You have the hashtag House in Hudson. We're going to get into that trajectory from Brooklyn to Hudson to now Nova Scotia. But what the hell? Nova Scotia? Yeah, Nova Scotia. So it's kind of a wild long story. I won't – I'll try to make it interesting and quippy.

49:40It will be. But my husband's Canadian. And for a long time, he was bringing me to Canada. And I really wasn't falling in love with anywhere. This was before we went to Montreal, which I'm obsessed with. And he took me to – he went to school in Halifax and took me to the South Shore and said, Kalou, I really think this is going to be your spot. And I was like, OK, Chad, better be. And I fell in love with it, completely fell in love with it. It's very Maine-like, but like on steroids because there's no Americans and you can bring dogs to the beach. And it's just like epically beautiful. We went there during the pandemic because, Chad, I was able to get in, which was amazing.

50:18And during that time, people from Vancouver started buying property sight unseen on the South Shore, just like a lot of people moved to Hudson, essentially. Very similar, but the Canadian version. And so that summer, we decided to go two hours further south just to see, like, what the vibe was. And about a week before we left, my stepmother texted me and she said, are you and Chad still looking to buy a house in Nova Scotia? And I said, well, yeah. Why? And she said, well, my best friend, Hope, who I know, her husband is from Nova Scotia and his great uncle is looking to sell this farmhouse. Oh, wow.

50:51Under the radar. Oh, so like not listed, like one of those like dream situations. Yeah. So they sent through the photo of the house. And please keep in mind, Chad and I have been looking online for years. We were prepared to buy like a shack. Yeah. And this house comes through and it's like my dream house. It is in Anna Green Gables. It's on 14 acres. Oh, wow. A lot of property, a lot of mowing. Yeah. Yes. Yes, Chad keeps trying to make that my job. There's fruit trees. Anyway, it is a long story. I'm not making it short. I was like, there's no way in hell that we're going to be able to swing this.

51:23But it was the exact amount of money that we had put aside for this house. It was kismet. Kismet is a word I was searching for. What is the food like in Nova Scotia? I know the band Sloan is from Nova Scotia. I know that they probably put their milk in bags in Nova Scotia. Sure do. Still do. Still do. But like what's – I'm sure seafood plays a role. Yeah. So, I mean, most – Nova Scotia, I believe, exports the most lobster in the entire world. Wow. So there's a lot of lobster. There's also – where we are, we're really close to Prince Edward Island. So there's – obviously we can get mussels and there's a big seafood component.

52:05Where we are is pretty rural. It actually is very reminiscent of the Hudson Valley in terms of being surrounded by farms, which also drew me to that area. I'd never been to the North Shore. And really we do a lot of cooking at home. Halifax is like an hour and 45 minutes away. Oh, yeah. So you're out there. Oh, yeah. We're out there. It is rural. So the food, I really – I'm making it, so it's great. I love it. I bet it's great. And I can't wait to keep following you on social to see what you do at the house and you'll be living up there this summer. Okay, let's talk about the Hudson Valley because I have moved there myself.

52:40Yes. Listeners to the show know I'm up there from Brooklyn. I lived in Brooklyn and New York for 20 years and moved there. And I did that a couple years ago. But you moved there in like 2017. And you had this great hashtag, as I said, House in Hudson. What was it like moving up to Hudson, New York and being one of the – I would say one of the first like Brooklyners to like go up there? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's changed dramatically. It's been nine years. I also lived in Brooklyn for about 20 years. And then, you know, we were going back and forth for a little bit. And it's been interesting. The area has changed a lot just in terms of...

53:17Wow. A lot of people live there now. A lot times a lot, actually. A lot times a lot. I read somewhere that I believe that the Hudson zip code had the highest number of address forwards during the pandemic. Yeah. Wow. So it's... What's it like there first? Oh, yeah. Let's set the scene for folks who've never been to the Hudson Valley or up there. Where is it in relation to New York? Sure. So it is a two-hour and 10-minute straight shot on Amtrak. It is right on the Hudson River, which is so beautiful. I actually grew up in the lower Hudson Valley. This is upper Hudson, up HUD. I live low HUD. You live low HUD.

53:56Yeah. It is beautiful. We're surrounded by incredible farms. There's a lot of creative people, you know, that live there. I live very close – or I live in town, essentially. I don't live on Warren Street, which I call the movie set because it is just – well, it's beautiful, but it's also, like, prohibitively expensive. Like, you can't shop. My dad came last weekend, and he was like, have you seen all these crazy cars on Warren Street? And I was like, no, I don't go on Warren Street anymore, Dad. Yeah, yeah. I stay in my home, my next door neighbor. We do a lot of dinners at homes. Yeah. Other people's homes.

54:31Great community up there, too. Amazing community. Yeah. A lot of food people, a ton of publishing people now. Yeah. It was time for me to go further. Yeah. To get away from the - I'm like, I left you people. The Brooklyn cosplay is real in Hudson. Yes. Let's talk about the food. I love Cafe Mutton. I'm obsessed. I've been and I just think it is I'm glad it's one of the James Beard finalists for New York State. Same. Really proud of that. But let's talk about that. I was a big fan early on. I think they are doing incredible food. It is the way that I want to eat. It is the way that I love. I love the way they were at their menu.

55:12I just think all of it is just very accessible, even though the dishes are so sometimes insanely in the best way over the top. So, yeah, I'm thrilled for them. I think it's awesome. It's actually, like, the closest restaurant to my house as well. That's where you live. And Little Deb's Oasis right down the street, too. Literally. So I'm in, like, you know, I always – I'm ahead of the curve a little bit. It's a good little spot. I love that. I mean, it is over the top, though. I think that my experiences there have been with brunch. And so I haven't been to one of the Friday night dinners. They only do dinner one night a week.

55:43Right. So I must say just some of the pastries, but also just like it's like it's like British. It definitely has a root of the UK. It does, for sure. Dinner is also super fun. Yeah, it's rich. And it's like there's a there's a I don't give a fuck kind of, you know, mentality in that way, in the best way. Like this is what we want to make and we're making it. And you can stay or you can go and we don't really care, which I think is really cool. Yeah. Is it tough to book on Fridays now? They don't book. Oh, they don't book at all. Yeah. There you go. No. So you just have to show up. Just got to show up.

56:19Early. Show up early. Yeah. Well, that's a great place. Cafe Mutton, Little Dibs Oasis. Is there anything else in Hudson we should know about? I know it's like picking children. No, no. I mean, Rivertown does a beautiful job. They just opened another restaurant across the river in Leeds called Casa Susana, which I have not been to yet, but I've heard already incredible things. It is traditional Mexican, and I'm very excited to get over there. I'm trying to think. I mean, you kind of nailed the top. Quinny's is also lovely. It's a little bit out of town, but great, great sandwiches and some groceries and provisions.

56:52Love to hear that. So you're not going to be in Hudson in the summer. This is crazy. Wow. My husband and I decided last night to leave on Tuesday to just go open up the house. It's an 11-hour drive. But it's not. He's done it in one shot. He did it in one shot last year. It's not that bad, really. When you get on the road, you just go. Pack some sandwiches. Get some podcasts. Listen to Taste Podcast. Listen to Taste Podcast. Yeah, do it. Okay, we were in Amelia Romagna in 2018. We sure were. I love that. I want to relive that. I'm going to link to the show notes, the issue that we published here at Taste from that trip.

57:24And with Drew Lazor, Michael Harn-Turkel, you and I. It was the best trip. What a trip. It was cool. It was nice to be with friends. But man, Emilia Romagna, right? Yeah. I mean, I want to get back. I have not been back. Me either. I don't think I've been back to Italy since. Don't quote me on that. But that trip was really magical and it was such a great group of people. You're right. It was like friends that were experiencing really cool food and learning so much about vinegar. Right. And yeah, I wish we could recreate that trip. I know. It was great. And like learning about the battery system for balsamic vinegar was my biggest takeaway.

58:00Yep. That was really cool. Mm-hmm. I was just going to say also there's an amazing farm store in Hudson called Morningstar, which I go to to get my groceries because I hate going to the farmer's market. We can get into that or not, but I have a lot of market anxiety. Wow. But they sell one of the vinegar producers. Really? Yes. Oh, wow. Of course, he's like the handsome guy. We went and his mom made us dinner outside. That guy? I love that guy. Clueless, actually go there. Farmer's market anxiety is interesting. What do you mean? Well, Hudson's a small town and, you know, I have a people pleasing quality that I try that I'm working on.

58:42And I go into this sort of performative mode of like, oh, hi. Hey. And I just like I don't want that on a Saturday morning. I'm potentially hung over. I just want to get my local produce and my local meat and like be left alone, which I know sounds silly because I am a social person. But I think I'm like, I don't know. It's just it causes me a lot of stress. And then you run into so many people. And then you have to be that person. And I just don't want to have to be that person. Yeah. Yeah. And at the market, it's definitely like before 10. Usually the coffee hasn't really quite hit yet. Exactly.

59:19Yeah. I used to go to the Carroll Gardens Farmer's Market on Sundays and yeah. And feel like I just need to go like headphones in. Headphones in is actually. It's a good move. Yeah. It's like, are you on a call? Are you listening to a podcast? I mean, no one's going to really mess with you. I know. It's true. It's rude, though. It's very rude. That's what I mean. Then I have to feel like I have to be like go put my head down and I'm just not. I just would rather just not. I love that we're tackling this head on because I think farmers markets have a lot of like subtext there because we talk about pricing, too.

59:50Yes. And like pricing is important to recognize that it is higher because subsidies aren't being given to these farmers. They're small. Absolutely. They've trumped it in from two, three hours away. And really, I think to bring it up, we just have to say, like, it's worth it. Pay the money. Absolutely. I mean, I love Morningstar Farm Store. It's about a five, seven-minute drive from my house. And they have – they grow a lot of stuff themselves. And they have stuff from all around the valley. So then I'm supporting them. I'm supporting their store. And I'm also supporting local produce. Yeah, absolutely.

1:00:21And it is worth it. I mean, it just – and the quality is – the proof is in the pudding. We have to definitely talk about the quality when you're growing and it's being picked and harvested 24 hours before it hits the table. Absolutely. There's going to be a premium there, but you should just like, you know, suck it up and pay it. Suck it up and pay it. All right. Well, let's talk about your book, Clue Cooks, Easy Fancy Food. I want to ask you straight up, how can food be easy and fancy? How about Unfussy and Empowering? Okay. Was that the original title? No, the original title was Please Bring Dessert because I don't bake.

1:00:59And I asked my friends to write the dessert chapter. And I thought it was really fun and everyone was on board. And then, you know, my publisher had like a moment. They were like, well, people are going to think this is a dessert book. And I'm like, so what? Maybe they'll buy it anyway. Yeah, yeah. But I got vetoed. So easy, fancy food for me is, I think, just trying to hit home that food can be sophisticated, but it is often simple. And I don't want to freak people out in the kitchen. I'm really there to empower them. And so, you know, you do – I know it's cliche, but you do eat with your eyes first.

1:01:36So I – like there's a recipe in the book that we're serving tonight at this pop-up. It's roasted mushrooms with sour cream and herbs and some – What kind of mushrooms? All over. So there's an amazing – actually, Devin, my friend, has Tivoli mushrooms up in Hudson. I'm obsessed. I don't know what they're using tonight, but hopefully a variety. But the way that it is presented is beautiful, but it couldn't be easier to make. You literally roast mushrooms. You put them on a, you know, a bed of sour cream and you scatter them with herbs. It sounds like the perfect – it could be a main. It doesn't have to be a side dish.

1:02:08It could be a main. Yeah. Absolutely. I love that. So, yeah. Kalou, you write a lot from The New York Times. And when you're writing these recipes for cooking, how do you go into that recipe development process? What is like your goal? Because you really do have a style of your recipes. So when I wrote recipes for The New York Times, a lot of it was driven by SEO and really catering to the weeknight cook and trying to get everything down to as few pans as possible. So that really kind of was in a helpful way. You know, I mean, people are busy and they want to get something on the table that tastes good and is easy to assemble.

1:02:49And I think that that was, you know, helpful, honestly, in a lot of ways because it made me think about the cook and the user. And I think that in general in recipe development, I'm always anticipating that, right? So I want to create something where people aren't questioning themselves. But there's like I think there's a balance between empowering and anticipating. Right. And I hope that I do that well. I try to do that well because you want someone to be confident, but you also want them to follow what you're telling them to do. Yeah, but like putting – The comment sections are hilarious on the New York Times cooking site.

1:03:36Oh, yeah. I'm sure that's an interesting moment when you publish something and you get like all this flood of comments. And yeah, comments for creators are quite a thing. They're hilarious. Yeah, they're hilarious. But I think when I'm developing my own personal recipes, there is some of that too, anticipating what people might have a question with but empowering. But it really kind of depends. Sometimes I work backwards. Like sometimes I'll have an idea for a dish and what I want it to look like. And then I'm like, OK, well, how do I sort of make that work? Like there was a recipe that I created for my newsletter.

1:04:11It was like brothy soba with some salmon. But I didn't I wanted to I don't know how I don't know if I'm articulating myself the best way. But essentially, I knew what I wanted it to the outcome to be. So I was like, OK, so what do I need to do in order to make that happen? Yeah. And sometimes it goes the other way. You know, I think I'm really driven by my cravings and also seasonality. So I love that. So there's a lot of different elements that go into developing. But I think empowering is what I'm hearing the most. Yeah. I'm sorry. So I say that like 17 times. No, no. It's a really. Yeah. You said it about 14.

1:04:44No, no. But I think it's so important that you're giving your reader permission. Yeah. To maybe fuck some stuff up. And but it's OK. And I think that's really OK. And I actually have a funny story. I, my, the roasted tomato and white bean stew was the most popular recipe at the time, the vegetarian most popular recipe of 2020. And my editor, Margo, who I love, she's amazing. At the time, she was like, well, do we really need to roast the tomatoes? Like, can we figure out a way to, like, cut that step or figure out a way to get? And I, like, for some reason, I was like, no. I love it. Like, we need to roast the tomatoes.

1:05:22And I'm so glad that I put my foot down because it was like a viral recipe for me, which was great. Yeah, I think that sometimes simplicity is a real enemy. It can be. It can be, you know, I think it's – I had a really interesting talk with Natasha Pickowitz a couple weeks ago. We did a talk in Beacon for her new book. And we were talking about how sometimes it can be really helpful to work within certain constraints. But then, you know, obviously it can go either way. I love – let's shout out Beacon. I mean, let's just go there. Beacon's cool. Yeah, it's closer to me. I love that. I love that.

1:05:52Yeah. I haven't, you know, I haven't spent a ton of time there in a while. And it was really nice to go. We went and did an event together at Little King. Yeah, it's great. Which is such a beautiful shop. Yeah, great shop. And also Dia Beacon is worth checking out. Absolutely. Absolutely one of the best Hudson Valley art. Absolutely. It's special. The Hudson Valley is magical. We are really doing travel. Travel. We should get tourism. Yeah, where's the Hudson Valley Tourism Board? I love it. Let's talk about food writing and some food terms. I have this, like, bee in my bonnet about the word frizzled.

1:06:26Oh, God. Sorry. Because I have that, I think, in one of my recipes. I mean, listen, it's no cut on you or anyone who's used that word. I just want to know what the fuck it means. It means fried. Okay. So it means fried. It means fried. And I think, going back to your recipe development question, you, as the recipe creator, want to come up with really fun titles for recipes. Agreed. So there's like a bit of whimsy there. No, I love that it means fried because I was like, is it like sauteed? But you're saying, and frying and sauteing is slightly different, I think. Yes, it is. And frizzled seems like, so there's more crisp there.

1:07:03Exactly. Frizzled, I think, I don't know if it's the frizzled shallots. I can't remember. No, it's definitely shallots. You can't frizzle many things. You can't frizzle many things. But shallots and onions are, alliums in general can be frizzled. It's my favorite time of year. It's so. Allium season. Allium season. Are there food terms that annoy you? Um, yes. I don't love the word smidge. It's not my first smidgen. Yeah. I think. It means nothing. That's why. It means nothing. Yeah. I don't love using the word ish a lot. Yeah. I think it might. I'm sure I'm guilty of using it, too. This is no, like, dig.

1:07:47It's just sometimes, you know, and then adding Y's onto things all the time is a bit. Y's. Yeah. Like limey. It's like lime. Oh, Y, the letter Y. The letter Y. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? That can be challenging. But I mean, I do it. We all do. I try to be mindful of it. It's a tough question. I was asking you to hate on food terms. I know. I have to tell you, I did some research. I was like, what food terms do I hate? Yeah. And I don't really hate any, but I came up with three potential. You really came to play. I think unctuous is banned from taste. Ooh, I don't like that word either. Yeah. Yeah.

1:08:22Moist as well. Oh, see, I'm coming back around. You're coming back on moist? I am. I am. I think it's going to be funny. It means something, especially with baked goods. How do you talk about baked goods without ever using the word moist? Yeah, right. What is the better? Unctuous texture. Oh, no. You went to the banned word right there. Sorry. I'm sorry. Banned words and taste. We have a few of them. Wow. Wow. I have to ask you about cookbooks in general. I know you have your eye on the scene. You write about cookbooks in your newsletter. I'll link to that in show notes. Do you have any favorite cookbooks from this past spring season?

1:08:57Yeah, I actually just got The Modern Spice Rack by Esther Clark and Rachel Walker. And I'm really I've been following her on Instagram, Esther, for a while. And I was really excited about this book. I think, you know, the UK does such a great job with cookbooks. and I got it in the mail this past week and it was really it's really exciting to see their use of spices and you know the history of spices and how they were used and I just put a recipe out this week with toasted coriander seeds and it was like oh I know why I'm doing this it's because I'm reading you know so I'm not necessarily cooking from it but it's giving me ideas which is awesome and I'm sure I will cook from it so that's on my list right now Nils Bernstein yeah The Joy of Oysters.

1:09:44Such a great book. Such a great guy. Such a great book. Absolutely. So I've been looking into that. Steve Sando just republished Judith Barrett's, I think her name is Judith Barrett, Fagioli. So it's all about Italian beans. And he did it. Like he did the update. He published it. And I'm very excited. That's amazing that he's doing publishing like in that way. I know. That's cool. Very cool. I feel like that's happening, I feel like, a little bit. Yeah. Well, we have Nils on the show. I'm not sure if it'll run before or after this interview. Love you, Nils. Yeah, Nils is nice. Let's actually talk about Substack.

1:10:18I love that you have embraced the platform. What does it give you? Freedom. Love it. It really gives me a couple of things. It allows me to write recipes that I want to write. It allows me to connect with people that actually want to be there because it's a very active community. And it gets me away from Instagram. You know, I use it as a way to get people from Instagram over to Substack. I don't – listen, Instagram is – I have many thoughts on. I love using it for sponsored content. I like, you know, sharing some less and less – Parts of your life but not too personal. Yeah, pretty much. That doesn't happen anymore.

1:11:02The arms-length pieces of your life. Yeah, very, very reserved. Yeah. But a little bit, yes, for sure. and I like there's a sense of ownership I think of my Substack newsletter and it's fun. I really am enjoying it and it's yeah and I get to do video over there. My husband and I work on videos together so that's really fun and now they're letting you embed videos. So I think it's just going to continue to evolve and there's some great writers over there. Absolutely. It's and it's like your inbox is a little more personal than like a social feed. I'm a fan of Substack. Oh awesome. Great. And I also like that I can also talk about things that are just on my radar that aren't necessarily food.

1:11:42Like if it's a television recommendation or a thing. You know what I mean? I'm more than just my recipes. Well, definitely hit the subscribe for Kalou's sub stack. I'll link to it in the show notes. Thank you. Okay, you're back in New York. Where are you dining right now? We're going to have a lot of our listeners come in here this summer. Where should we be going? Those are two separate questions, but take them both. I mean, I am so traditional these days. All I want to do is go to Via Corotta, go to Keynes. Yeah. I just really love the old spots. Oh, Keene's. I haven't been there in a minute.

1:12:09It's my favorite. Yeah. It's my favorite bar in the whole city. What's the order there? Yeah. Oh, my order? Yeah. A Gibson. I got a Gibson up. And then they do a crab cocktail, which is really good. My friend Helen and I usually go and we sit at the bar and we'll, you know, just sort of have. Just drinks and appetizers. You're not going for the steaks. Right. Although they are delicious. They're fine. Yeah, they're fine. I love that. But I just like the energy. Pro move to just do the bar. I love that choice. Via Corotta, we've talked about it a lot. I'm sure. You don't need to deep dive on that.

1:12:43It's great. It's perfect. It is. Where else are you going? Where else am I? You know, I always will visit Diner in Williamsburg. Classics. Tarlo. I am a classic lady. Classy and classic. Dion Di, the amazing, amazing Vietnamese restaurant in Greenpoint. Greenpoint. Our office is across the street. I love that place. It's so good. Where else? Cafe China, Birds of a Feather, anything Szechuan. I'm there. Great list. Thanks. Yeah, excellent. I mean, New York is really upstate city. We're blessed. We are so blessed. It's a great city here. Yes. Okay, so next move, you're working on another cookbook.

1:13:22I am. What's the thought? Because like right now, there's a lot of cookbooks out there. We love them all, or many of them at least. It's like we love every single cookbook ever published. No, that is not. We have a point of view here. But really, when you're in this like early stages of a next book, what are you thinking? Right now, I'm thinking I'm going to just try and write recipes that are coming from a, as my therapist said, right from love, not for love. Love it. Get it. Which actually blew my mind. It's in the acknowledgments. I was like, Becky, thanks. Changed my life. So I'm really trying to just, you know, cook and write things down, honestly, and then file them away.

1:14:02and then at some point I'm going to have to figure out a way to arrange them. I don't know. I'm really excited to get back to Nova Scotia. There's a sense of like a bit of freedom there for me just to play. We talked about playing before we went on. So that's really inspiring. We got a wood-fired pizza oven at the house. So that's going to be fun to mess around with. Chad is like fixated on catching a striped bass this summer, so we'll see. Yeah, it'd be great to catch a bass, cook the bass. In the oven. And then write about it in the oven. Exactly. Yeah, a wood-fired bass. Do you have neighbors up there?

1:14:38We do, but we have a lot of privacy because the property has 14 acres and it's on the back. And it's across from the water, which is also magical. We're not on the water, but you can see it if you go up to the second floor. How fun. So it's more like isolation mode. Yeah, it's just like, yeah, it's very peaceful. I think that's why I really want to get there this week. I'm just like, I need to. Yeah. And we were on the road. We were in Europe for six weeks. Yeah. Which was awesome. Listen, I need to ask you about that. So six weeks in Europe. What's going on? Was it for work? What are you doing?

1:15:12Yeah. I went to eat because I'm looking for inspiration for this next book. And clearly, you know, we lived through a pandemic. Our dog sadly passed away last summer. Oh, man. He was almost 20. He lived a beautiful life. Great life. But Chad and I, he was the best. But Chad and I couldn't travel together for many years for numerous reasons. And my dad was turning 75 and said, I really want to go to Portugal. And I was like, OK, well, if we're going to go over there for Portugal, like, why don't we just said to Chad, not to my dad? I was like, we just stay. Yeah, right on. And so we did. So we spent time in Portugal and then we went to Spain.

1:15:49Oh. We went to Madrid and Menorca. Menorca was totally random and magical. They have fennel growing wild all over the island. Yep. Cycling, I know, is big in Menorca and Mallorca. Yeah. I've been to Mallorca, too. Menorca is a lot smaller, a little more rustic. It's beautiful. That's the spot. Good to know. And then we went to Marseille, which is— Love that town. Amazing. Yeah, I love that town. What a food scene. Yeah. There's a lot of young talent that are moving out of Paris because it's expensive, and they have more flexibility to be creative. So we had some really, really incredible meals.

1:16:26Yeah. I mean, Boullabaisse is what the city is known for. But, man, there's so much going on. I didn't even have it, which is so crazy because I love Boullabaisse. Yeah. But we had some really incredible restaurant meals. Which I can share with you. Yeah. That's considered Provence, right? It is. Yeah, Provence. Which is my favorite place. Yeah, no shit, man. Jeez, I haven't been back there in a minute. Me neither. I haven't been anywhere. Yeah. And then we ended up in the Lake District of the United Kingdom at a marmalade festival. I'm not kidding. It was awesome. And so we extended our trip to go because we had friends in the competition.

1:17:04Oh, what? Right. We've written about marmalade and competition marmalade. Leslie Parasol wrote a great piece for taste. Oh, I should look because I'm working on one. Oh, you should check it. Yeah, I will. So let me ask you, what is marmalade like in the UK in this competitive setting? So there's a lot of talk about peel. I had coffee with Blanche Vaughn who is the food editor at House and Garden UK and I was telling her about the Marmalade competition and she was like thin cut thick cut and I was like what? What? Also Blanche Vaughn is a great name. Oh she's I know Like come on I know she's a great lady too and such a great name Blanche Vaughn Yeah like shout out So mysterious Showing up to a meeting I'm Blanche Vaughn I can't wait to send this to her she'll get a kick out She'll love it Yeah she'll love the shout out She has a book coming out too, actually.

1:17:54Hey, man, if you're a New York Blanche Fon, just you got an invite. There you go. Just look me up. She's awesome. But so, yeah, a guy named Timmy Nims, one from Edinburgh. And, you know, they really give you handwritten notes. People enter year after year. And it's all about cooking the peel, how long you cook the peel. Yeah, I recall. That's great. Well, I'll look at your piece. Thank you. I'll let you know when it comes out. So, wow, what a cool tour of Europe. Things are happening there. I love that. Yeah, it was really fun. And the Lake District is absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, absolutely. Clue, we asked all guests on Tate's podcast, if you could write a cookbook or food culture book without the burden of time, meaning you have no deadline or the burden of budget, meaning you have all the money in the world to execute this book, what would that book be?

1:18:34I'm going to throw you a curveball here. Yeah, let's do it. I love curveballs. I would love to write about anything but food. Yeah, it's definitely not a curveball. It's a great answer. Why? I'm working on some short stories. I'm working on some essays. and if I could take a break and not worry about money, I would love to spend time and focus on just working on those. So in the meantime, I'm writing them and putting them away. But it's really, I wrote my first short story last summer and I didn't know I could do that, but I did. And it was so liberating and fun. And that's what I would do. I love that answer.

1:19:15And it's clearly in your future. Thank you. Yeah. Clue Henry, thank you for joining the Taste Podcast. Thanks so much for having me.

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