238: Rick Easton

26:05Yeah, I'm sure she did. I don't know if it's still live. That site might be dead, but it was. Yeah, I mean, but look, I thought that that was actually a great story, and I think that she had a valid point. Yeah, the point was, like, don't use shitty olive oil. Or shitty anything. I mean, it's like if you want to make a great pizza, you've got to use good products. I think, and that's the other funny thing that we're in this moment now, I think everybody wants to say that every like, you know, everybody's taking this approach or you see more and more of, well, we're using the best ingredients. Like we were it's a classic New York style pizza, but we're elevating this and that and the other thing.

26:41And I'm like, you know, you're not. It's like it's marginally better than the crap these industrial places are putting out. Sure. You know what I mean? And at the end of the day, does it matter? I mean, I think people, like, fetishize all this stuff in a, you know, really bizarre way. I think the fights, the death threats, like all these things over pizza, it's maybe a bit much. I agree. And for context, for Katie's story, it was published probably in 2014. And so I haven't reassessed the far. So I don't know what quality of products they're using now. But at the time, she was disappointed in the quality of olive oil that was served with great ceremony in those old tin cans and all that junk.

27:18Well, and look, here's the point about the far. Like having never been there, I'm not going to say anything about it. And of course, the old man is past. Yeah, yeah. But the real point to me that I think is like, you know, worthy of respect, right, is here is a guy who dedicated his entire life to making pizza. He was in that pizzeria every day until he died. You know, that, you know, regardless of his personal taste, regardless of the product being put out, regardless of whether you like it, you don't like it, that deserves some respect. I love that you say that and thank you for bringing it back to that side of the coin because I think like yourself there's real passion there.

27:55And I think back to your other point about why we fetishize certain things. It's like data points. As writers, we need data points. We need to like have XYZ types of yeast or types of fermentation or time. And it gets to be like baseball cards like you're talking about like dumb data points when you're not actually getting the full story, which is like the pizza is good or not good. Sure. And it just gets a little in the weeds. I think it's like that with anything. I mean, I think that it's like, look, I mean, people need content, right? You got stuff you got to write about. I think that pizza and all of this stuff is very, very easy, right?

28:30Because it always pushes these buttons for people that go to this nostalgic place and they remember. Like, you know, I mean, it's like nobody really evolves too far past the point when they're six years old and the pleasure they had getting a pizza, going out with their parents or whatever else. Like it's a special treat. It's a reward. but that changes how the whole culture works then, you know? Have you ever had Detroit-style pizza? Have you ever had ranch dressing on pizza? No, I'm not going to do that. I can't. So I don't like ranch dressing, pizza or no pizza. I feel like, generally, I have an irrational paranoid fear of mayonnaise.

29:06It's this thing, like I'm really freaked out by it. Oh, I mean, ranch is like running shotgun with mayonnaise. Exactly. It's like same family, I'm not comfortable, you know? I mean, look, I think if people like it, it's fine. I don't think Detroit style pizza, I don't actually believe it's a real thing. I think that it was like a thing that was created. I think that kind of blue steel pan, deep, you know, thick style of pizza was like there was probably a practitioner or two of this in Detroit, you know, and that it was maybe had some popularity. But I think it didn't get legs as a style that other people were doing until people took this kind of very obscure style, like maybe practiced by a few people and then spread it around the country via social media.

29:52Everybody's like looking, you know, they want that Frico crust and all that stuff. And they're all showing these similar kind of pictures in the cheese bowl and the entire thing. Is this true enough to you? Look, you're from Michigan. How many people are making that style of pizza? This hurts. I can't believe you actually are saying that Detroit South Pizza may not even exist. Rick, you're right. I agree with you fully. There are a few practitioners in Detroit that do it really well. And I think that there certainly has been a moment where it's been expanded into even the fast food pizza world.

30:22And oftentimes that version of fast food of Detroit pizza is not good. So I agree with you fully. It is a real thing. You have to go to Buddy's. I think that's good. I think Jet's in some ways is industrial pizza, but it's also quite good. And there's a few others that I'm forgetting off the dome. But fetishizing a style of pizza in the way that we've fetishized Detroit pizza is I think I hear that's what you're saying is maybe not your favorite thing. No, I mean, but it's also it's like if you look at anything, like look at the history of pizza. I mean, there's a lot of people who are far more well versed in this topic that have been on this show, I'm certain.

30:57But I would say that, you know, pizza as a thing, as far as I understand it, didn't actually really exist in any more widespread way until the 1940s and 50s, even as like late 40s, early 50s. I mean, sure, there's the whole argument about the early New York pizzas. Lombardi's, of course, the coal guys down on Mott Street. You can go there. They have it from like, you know. But or if you look at the history of pizza in New Haven, for example, I mean, the part of that that I like, right, is that that's a place that all of those pizzerias started as bakeries. And all of those people who came over from Campania were bakers there and they moved to New Haven and opened bakeries.

31:42And the town supported a great number of bakeries because of the high population of Italian immigrants from this area. And, of course, to differentiate themselves or to have more product to sell. I mean, it's a natural thing in a bakery. Your oven, especially with these large masonry ovens, it's like at certain points they're way too hot to bake anything else. Start slinging pizzas. Start putting dough in there, putting toppings. I want to segue to the sauce and to tomatoes. I think I'd like to hear your take on the best tomatoes to buy for making pizza at home. can you can we support like American domestic canned tomatoes from Modesto or do you have to get the ones from Italy look I think you have to get the ones you like my personal taste I don't like American tomatoes you certainly write about that in the book yeah love about your book I I you know like I think that like for example like you know with all respect I think that Bianco Di Napoli is a great it's a really good tomato it's a really enjoyable tomato and I think that's kind of become the go-to uh yeah yeah like the high watermark for american tomatoes though sure you say sure you know i mean look why have a funny story about that you know let's go there at any rate let's go to the story what's the story well no i'll get there what i was gonna say is i think that this thing but i think the american palate those tomatoes are produced they're grown they're done in a way because sweetness is the value i mean i think when you talk to people about what they like in tomatoes, they're like, oh my God, it's so sweet.

33:15It's like candy, you know? Whereas what I like in Italian tomatoes personally is bitterness. So there's like a trace bitterness, a minerality, acidity, like meaty quality. Like there's a, there's a complexity and a depth. Umami even. Absolutely. We could use that word. My Stanislaus story, as an aside, is one of my favorite pizzas that I've had in recent years is this guy out in Brooklyn. He's got a thing, Chrissy's Pizza. Have you heard of Chrissy's Pizza? Only have heard, never have tasted. So he's out there in Bushwick. He's making like 20 pizzas every Monday in his home apartment. And they're really phenomenal.

34:01Like, I mean, the guy's a phenomenal pizza maker. He's 100 % heart. He's given it everything he has. He's putting everything into it. But there's definitely Stanislaus tomatoes on that pie. There's all these ingredients that are not. Polio, maybe. I don't actually know the cheese. Maybe grande. I don't know. But it's, you know, it's all of these things that I'm like, you know, in all of my own snobbery and everything else, I'm like, nah, we don't use that stuff. I use this stuff. And I use all this very expensive, beautiful product. But this guy is using that stuff. he's aspiring to get this classic New York taste.

34:36And he kills it. It's better than any New York slice. Is he doing it like a home oven? Out of a home oven. Oh, man. He's a monster. I love that. It reminds me of Jason LaFerrara, Pizzeria LaFerrara. Very much. Those guys are friends. Those guys need to get on. They haven't done a pop-up in a while. They're overdue. They're overdue. Now, I think your point is so strong about Stanislav's being sweet. And the American palate is sweeter. We know that. We know that we crave sweetness, especially when you put like Pizza Hut as your baseline. Of course. You know, it's just like dough and sweetness. It's like, it's almost like having a dessert for pizza.

35:08Look, sugar in the sauce is a thing that is a widely practiced thing with pizza. It's just not my thing. Exactly. Diplomatic. No, and your pizza is dope, just to reiterate. Okay, I want to hear a little bit about working with Melissa McCarty, your partner. What's it like writing a book with your life partner? It's like probably not easy. Well, I mean, you should ask her that question once you have her on the podcast, because apparently I can be a really difficult and sufferable prick. But, you know, I would say I personally might use the words of impassioned, opinionated, lots of strong ideas makes that it can make me difficult.

35:48But, you know, in some regards, you know, it's it can be a lot right, because it's like, you know, You navigate your way through a relationship and you have a life together and then you suddenly bring in stressful work stuff that you share together. Whereas if you can keep your work stress separate, it's a little easier. But for the most part, there's also things that are really absolutely phenomenal about it. I think a large portion of this book was actually written by me being able to just talk and then her recording everything and making it into complete sentences and lucid and coherent. Yeah.

36:28You know, which was nice because I don't think anybody else would actually be able to do that quite the same. You were telling me that during the recipe development, you would sometimes just write out recipes on large pieces of paper, just whatever you had in handy. Yeah, like, I mean, I'm at work and she's like, hey, we need these recipes by the end of the day or whatever. I want to get this section done. And so I grab a Sharpie and a piece of sandwich paper or whatever else and scratch something out and get it to her. And, you know, but like, you know, I think a lot of other writers, like I said, who didn't, you know, have other reasons to tolerate me would be like, oh, you're no, no, no.

37:03You have to sit down and type this up. I mean, listen, I've written three books with two chefs and I've had scraps of paper in my hand in all occasions. It happens. It's the process when you're – these are chefs who are actually working and active chefs. It's not – like managing the time is impossible. Books are so time-consuming and you just don't – Unbelievably time-consuming. And my thing that I think was so crazy about writing this one – I mean everybody has their stories or whatever. But, you know, in a context of my business in a bakery, our deadlines somehow were Christmas and Easter, which I'm like, this is not possible.

37:39This is this is insane. This is my busiest time of year for anyone working food. Those two holidays. Right. Oh, my gosh. Well, you and Melissa, as Melissa is the editor of Eater New York. Where have you been going out with together or where have you been going out solo that excites you in Jersey City where you're located or in in New York? I'd just love to ask folks in the area where you're going out. Well, I think that's fair. I mean, it's like everybody has their own stuff. It's funny because we don't go out in Jersey City very often. I mean, when we do, we stop down at Raza where we saw you.

38:14Raza, yeah, definitely got a call. That place is great. Yeah. I mean, you know, Dan is a great guy, and they do a good job. So that's kind of something we'll eat in the neighborhood. You know, there's some other places around that I'll occasionally get some takeout from. I mean, you know, but when we go out, we generally go to the city. I often, you know, we don't go out very often. I mean, when I do, it's either I go visit friends. So I go to the long-awaited New Superiority Burger. We've been there a few times already. An absolute bit on the show is the status of Superiority Burger. We will get into that.

38:48So let's leave that for last. Okay, that's fair. That's fair. But so, you know, but I'll go visit my friend Emilio at Emilio's Bellotto. I try to do that every couple of weeks. I love that guy. He's sitting in the front, hanging out, drinking Coke. Yeah. He honestly, why he hasn't been on a podcast, I don't think he would ever want to do it. I've interviewed him. Oh, you have? For print, though. I've never had him on the podcast. I've sat down with him. Yeah. I just think on a podcast, he would be so funny. He's a great guy in just the depth of knowledge and experience. and that back room is where like Leo and Scorsese like hack out their their roles and stuff yeah it's like a favorite of those two individuals he he is and he but he's he's a great guy and he's been a big supporter of what I do that's cool and so like I like to go down and see him and great food food Emilio Spolato is excellent absolutely it's son Anthony running the kitchen I mean you know dad oversees everything but uh you know uh we do that but generally when we go out we go out for Chinese food we go out for for different regional Chinese food it's harder now Now living in Jersey City as it was when we lived in Queens, of course, because you could shoot up the Flushing or Helmhurst or any number of places.

39:55But, you know, we mostly stick to Manhattan now just because of travel times and time constraints. But, you know, I mean, that's to me always one of the most exciting things about dining in New York is that there's so much of this available and there's always more coming. It's like there's so much to discover, so much to learn. and for me to go out and eat food that I can't make myself, that's what I want to do. But it's really got to impress you too. Absolutely. Because you make a lot of food yourself. Now, back to Brooks, I know there was a period where you were working out of his second kitchen.

40:26You were making focaccias and just hanging out, right? Well, I just, you know, I think there was a period of underemployment in my life. Unemployment to underemployment when I was living in New York and trying to kind of figure out what it was I was going to do and how I was going to do it and everything else. And Brooks was a good friend, you know, and supporter of what I did. And I did a lot of pop-ups at Superiority Burger. And I definitely, you know, I hung around a lot. Like, it was a great place to be, you know. You know, all 175 square feet, how they could fit another, you know, body in the room, especially one like mine that's kind of large and awkward.

41:07It's like, but, you know, spent a lot of time there, worked on stuff with those guys. It's helped them develop their focaccia recipe, which they do a phenomenal job with. It's phenomenal. And I love that the new restaurant has that actually on the sign. Absolutely. It's such a good product. I mean, it's an excellent product. I mean, they really kill it. And they've, you know, it's just, you know, incredibly consistent, just a beautiful, beautiful product. Let me ask you, what's the scene check at Superiority Burger? What are you liking on the menu? What's the vibe like inside? I mean, this is truly like the third time I've talked about it with three different guests, and I'm going to talk about it with more until I go myself.

41:43That's very well. You're going to have to go yourself. I mean, I would say that what I like, I mean, like the food's great, but the most exciting thing, because this is the newest thing, is the room. Like the room itself feels so good, and it feels so good with a lot of people in there having a great time. And it's just, it's a lively, fun space. It's, you know, service is pretty smooth. I mean, speaking of pavement, you've got Mark eyeballed like slinging drinks. You've got like, you know, great photos on the wall of each corner of the space. Right. I mean, it's a great room and it's really, really fun.

42:20And it feels like the natural evolution of what Superiority Burger should be. I mean, I think that the thing that I think actually one of the things about the original Superiority Burger that was always remarkable was the level of hospitality and service they were able to provide. in a six-seat restaurant with a takeout-only format, you know, which is pretty crazy. Yeah, there'd be like a boat that lands on your plate. I mean, for anyone, like Brooks would always give you something special, no matter if he knew you or not. It just happened a lot there. Right, just taking care of details, paying attention to those details, taking care of people who come in and making sure that people are having a good time and getting what they need.

42:59And, I mean, they've always been very good at that. And so now to kind of see that unfold in a, you know, I don't know, what is it, a 70-seat restaurant or something like that? What's the order? What's the big order? Well, I mean, I think the order is, like I said, the focaccia. I like the collard green sandwich on focaccia. Also the Yuba Verde, you know. I think you get one or both of those. Lentil soup. Yeah, I've heard that lentil soup sneak into convo a little bit, which is like clearly not a meme-worthy dish in general. No, but I mean, you know, how do you go wrong with lentil soup? Everybody eats lentil soup.

43:34Everyone eats it when it's good and when it's seasoned. It's like monster ball soup. Like when it's good, it's good. That's it. That's it. So, you know, it's good. You know, lentil soup, I would say get a couple of salads and then pick a few desserts. You probably don't want to have just one. The desserts are fantastic. Yeah. Heard he's okay with that. Yeah. Dessert game. Exactly. Okay, let me close by asking you, if you could have a restaurant name a menu item after you, what would that be and what would the style of the restaurant be? Well, I would really hope that that never would happen. Why?

44:03Actually. It certainly is going to happen. No, I think that that is, you know, that's like, that would just feel very strange to me. I don't think I would ever be able to go to that restaurant again. But in the hypothetical world. I would say that, you know, if they were going to do it, I would hope that it would be something that's made with stale bread and beans. Oh. You know, because that's like, to me, that's very much at the heart of what I do. and who I am as a person. It's just these simple, simple, humble things that are incredibly satisfying, that are incredibly, I mean, maybe a little drab to look at, you know, but like those are my favorite recipes in the book, all of the dishes with cooked bread, you know.

44:51I think it's something that's kind of not in most people's repertoire. It's something we like to serve at the shop a lot when we can, and it's amazing. very, very, you know, down to earth, humble, but very kind of satisfying and fulfilling kind of dish. What's it called? What's the name of the dish? Pentecote. Pentecote. The beans manifesto in the book too, I forgot to mention, it's just amazing. The length and time you've put into actually writing about cooking beans. In a book called How to Eat Bread, there's a lot of beans content in there. I love beans. I mean, that's a funny thing. Actually, Brooks, when his cookbook came out, the Superiority Burger cookbook, not the fancy dessert but the Superiority Burger cookbook he had an event scheduled where he was supposed to talk about the book at the Museum of Food and Drink there in Brooklyn and instead he invited me and one of the guys who now owns Yellow Rose who used to work for him Dave Rizzo to host a panel discussion on beans and so we did host a panel discussion on beans for over an hour and we made beans and shared beans with everybody.

46:02I wish I was there. Those are three extremely great, cool chefs in New York. Yeah, it was a really fun event. But beans have always been, you know, to me, I think beans and bread are, you know, it's one of the most beautiful things you could ever eat. Oh, yeah. You know, and I think there's a lot of people in the world who that is pretty much what they eat. That's the only thing they eat. And like a panel discussion about beans can certainly get long-winded. Yeah, that's good. Had to do it. Couldn't resist. Had to kick on it. Rick Easton, thank you so much for joining the Taste Podcast. Absolutely.

46:34Great pleasure to be here.

46:44Hey, guys. I'm here with Shalia, Eliza, and Pat. What's up, guys? Sandwich, sandwich. Ready to fight. Ready to fight. So we're back. I'm ready to eat. You're ready to eat. Yeah, I know. It's late in the day and we're just going to do content without food, food content without food. Now, we are here to draft again and we had a great time drafting farmer's market produce. I felt that that was a successful draft and we want to come back with another draft. But right now, the idea is sandwiches. So excited. So I want to open with a little bit of like Q &A because I think there's definitely going to be some debate about what is a sandwich, what isn't a sandwich.

47:25So participants, guys, any questions? I want to say off the bat, I'm already broken hearted that off the mic I was told I can't use hot dogs. I know. Why not? Because it's one bun. Why not? Yes. Okay. I think it's because it's one bun. It's a solid bun. As in a taco is not a sandwich either. And you're going to have an issue with some of my choices, let me tell you. Okay, open face. Okay, so like let's, man, we're getting into it. Isn't a hot dog just an open face sandwich? I feel like an open-faced sandwich could potentially be a closed-faced sandwich, too, in most cases. A hot dog could get pretty closed if you really want it.

48:00You know, I mean, you could pull that bun pretty tight. You could definitely close it, but it's not closed on top and bottom. It's going to have an opening on the roof. If we don't move past this now, we're never going to. Yeah, this is not great content. I have a second clarifying question, which is, are we doing specific sandwiches or are they general sandwiches? Okay, great question. And when I wrote the email to you guys, I thought I had clarified that, but maybe I didn't. That was absolutely not passive aggressive. Maybe I didn't read the email, right? Or it was quarter passive aggressive.

48:27Okay, so here's the deal. Definitely thinking general sandwiches. But if there is an iconic sandwich that is a proper noun, meaning it was part of a campaign, a fast food campaign, so to speak, that could work. I don't think we go into like regional niche fast food items. I feel that that will definitely skew a little too esoteric. Let's just get into it. And if somebody feels strongly that the selection is not a sandwich, just say it right away. So we're going to draft in order. It's going to be Shalia, Eliza, Pat. Myself, it's a snake draft, so I will pick fifth. And we'll go back to Pat for sixth.

49:06Shalia, you are on the clock. Do you have a selection for the first pick? in the 2023 sandwich draft. Oh, boy. All right. So I already told Pat this yesterday. I am coming here with an agenda. And that agenda is to talk about my favorite Italian pork store in all of New York City. They are called Ceriso. They're in Astoria. And they are just incredible. They make fresh mozzarella that's like with flaky salt on the top. And the reason I am bringing them up is I love their meatball sub. Can I go sub? Meatball sub. Absolutely off the board. Number one pick. All right. Yeah, it's fantastic. Like they got famous because I guess when Robert De Niro was shooting a Bronx Tale, he would like have their food brought to set.

49:52And so now it's become this like neighborhood institution. And like you order their meatballs. You order their meatball subs. They give you like fresh moths while you're in there. Oh, nice little snack. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're fantastic. All right. Meatball subs is off the board. Eliza, you got a pick too. Okay. I'm gonna do Banh mi as my sorry absolutely my number one sorry so good sorry and just the context for me in the sandwich draft as a whole is that I I'm not a huge meat eater and I really don't like deli meat that much in general so this is one of the few like meaty sandwiches that I'd really ride or die for and I think a banh mi is just perfect so let's break it down it truly was my number one pick so you took my number one pick oh no no it really was my number one pick that is my favorite sandwich is the banh mi Oh, I feel bad.

50:38No, no, this is a draft. There's no feeling bad. Okay, great. I feel great. No, let's just break it down though. What makes a great banh mi? Do you have a blend? I have a kind of my own thought on a blend. No, I don't really have a strong thought on a blend per se. I think it's just about having that nice balance of acidity and brightness from the pickly things and the herbs and then like the pate and everything else that's going on. And I think that the bread is really important, but I would love to know what your platonic ideal banh mi is so I can steal that order. Definitely. I mean, the real consistent or the constants is marinated pork and pate.

51:12So like those kind of working together. But you've then got like the pickled, like you've got a sweet julian cucumber typically and pickled daikon and carrots, like usually a combination of the two. You can sometimes see just carrots. Yeah. When I was interviewing Andrea Nguyen on the podcast, she was saying pickled daikon is her must have in a banh mi because it has that funk. 100%. I think you need the funk. I think too much carrot is too sweet. And then you've got cilantro, culantro. You've got, it's coriander. You can call it many different things. It is the absolute essential herb, I think, for a banh mi for me.

51:47Okay, that's my pick. And then you've got jalapenos too. And the bread is important. Important. It's all important. It's all important. Bread is always important, but for the banh mi. So the number two pick is banh mi. I like that. Pat, you're up. All right. So right off the bat, Shalee, you got my meatball sub. off the board. I'm glad, though, it is the number one pick. It deserves that spot. So with that off the table, I am going with a roast beef hero. And I'm specifically calling out from the old neighborhood from Bensonhurst. I'm going to call out John's Deli on Stilwell Avenue right next to the garage clothing store.

52:22So you can get an oversized suit or you can get a roast beef hero. So this thing is... Don't limit yourself. You could have both. Oh, I mean, that's a big day. I'm literally saving this to my Google map right now. So it is their classic sandwich is a hero, roast beef, melted mozzarella. It's their gravy. It's great, wrapped up in a paper plate and then wrapped up in tinfoil. And that is, you know, if I had the number one pick, I probably would have picked this. This is an incredible sandwich. What's, so gravy is the condiment? It's Sunday gravy? Yes. So it's like sauce. It's a sauce. No, no, no.

52:59Not Italian gravy. Actual like roast beef. Oh, sorry. I was kind of like thinking, wow. No, no. So this is not a Parmesan sandwich. No, no. This is a roast beef with traditional gravy. Whoa. See, I was thinking it'd be more like in the Italian like vinegar and oil. No, no. This is a classic roast beef. Roast beef, but like. A lot of roast beef on Italian bread as a hero. Oh, man. Not open-faced. It's closed. It's wrapped up. You could eat it on the street. So go down to Stalewell Avenue and tell them Pat sent you. All right. Well, I have the fourth and the fifth pick. So I'm in that little pocket.

53:37So I'm going to go one, two. Number one is PB &J. Number one. I feel like outside of the banh mi, I was going to say PB &J. To me, this is my most consumed sandwich. What's your jelly? Right. So that's the question. Well, first, let's talk about the bread. The bread has to be soft. There's no like crunchy peanut butter and jelly. Some people think that that's actually a thing or like an English muffin. No. Creamy peanut butter, not crunchy. I think the Wegmans brand peanut butter is pretty good. And for condiment, it's definitely raspberry. No? No. I'm just thinking about it. Yeah. I'm a, I love like an apricot jelly or like even an apple jelly.

54:17And are you cutting it diagonally? Yes, I am. Good. But see, I also love the idea of just making it for myself and not packaging it into like a container and then taking it somewhere. But like making it and then not cutting it and being like, yo, I'm going to fucking eat this like whole. That's actually terrifying to me. You're just chomping the whole piece of bread. You're not cutting it? No. Extremely chaotic energy. It's chaos, but it's the best way. Matt, this is easily the most unsettling thing I've ever learned about you. Eating a full sandwich, no cut. I don't cut my PB &Js. Guys. Pat. What are we doing?

54:51Got my back. Yeah. My guy. But think about how pleasing it is to eat the little corner of the diagonal sandwich. You don't get that if you're just chomping into it. The ratio of like crust to filling is different. Me and Matt don't got that kind of time. We got to chomp. I like fighting for that perfect pocket and maybe it's the third bite. But when you get that perfect third bite, it's perfect. Just put it in a paper plate and roll it up in tinfoil and eat it on the street. Like a euro. Yeah. All right. So for the fifth pick, I'm like definitely I was thinking about this and I was like, I have this sandwich of mine.

55:27I think about it a lot. I order it a lot. It's from a restaurant and that restaurant is McDonald's and the sandwich is the Egg McMuffin. Oh, that's all right. All right. To me, the Egg McMuffin, I do not really tend to go to McDonald's outside of breakfast. It's the only time I really go there, except in March during Shamrock Shake season. but to me the egg McMuffin is perfect. The egg is always cooked perfectly and I love ham and I just think that I like an English muffin in this context. It's so good. You're making me want to revisit my take on egg McMuffins right now. Haven't thought about them in years but I feel like maybe I get one tomorrow.

56:03I don't know. They have to be from McDonald's though. You can't get the frozen versions. You know what I mean? Or even doing it yourself isn't as fun? So I have a friend's mom who since college, it was college friends, every year we end up going to this friend's house, his childhood house on Long Island, and his mom the day after Christmas will make us Egg McMuffin sandwiches. That is such a gift. That were deemed Egg McMommies. And it is a tradition that has lasted to this day that we still will go the day after Christmas and his mom will make Egg McMommies sandwiches. is for a group that has gotten up as high as 30 people in some years.

56:47Wow. It's gotten lower now. Boxing Day McMuffins. Yeah. I've gone status, honestly. Absolutely. All right, Pat, you're up. All right. So I am going, listen, calling out the big names here. I'm going to Katz's and I'm getting the corned beef root. No. Oh, no. I'm doing it. Oh, no. You sent the entire room into disarray. No, but you didn't take the right choice. Well, I'm guessing someone might be thinking it's pastrami, but. But I am going corned beef. I love it. I love it. Go, King. I mean, it's just my go-to when I go to Katz's. Love the Russian dressing, the tangy sour cream. Matt is in disbelief.

57:31But you know what? This is an opportunity for you because the pastrami is still on the board. I'm a little flabbergasted that you would go with corned beef over pastrami. I think pastrami at Katz's is truly one of the best restaurant dishes in the world. Absolutely perfect. I mean, it's great, but I'm a corned beef guy. No, I respect that. Respect the choice. I just don't agree with it. You know what's great is we're going to possibly get to go to Katz's twice in this episode. Possibly. I mean, OK, we'll see. It's not my... OK, anyways, Eliza, you're up. My draft pick is going to be... It was going to be Ruben.

58:10I'm going to say grilled cheese. Oh, no. I love a grilled cheese. You took it. I mean, it's so funny to me that every one of these sandwiches I think is in our list. I feel like for the fruit draft, there was basically zero unity at all. I mean, sandwiches are personal and there's maybe not a lot of good sandwiches out there, I guess. I don't have I mean, there's a lot of good sandwiches. I don't have a lot to say about a grilled cheese because everyone's had one and we all know how good they are. My perfect grilled cheese, I would say, is like a Swiss, like Gruyere, kind of stretchy white cheese blend on like, honestly, rye, which is maybe controversial.

58:46I kind of like the dark light combination. And if I'm making them at home, I'll add kimchi or scallions or other things. But just a classic normal grilled cheese is still really good. I don't like cheddar. I don't like American cheese. That's my caveat. Let's go around and get everyone's grilled cheese. Shalia, you're up. I won't get into it because this is, I guess, no longer my pick, but I do. The thing I really love about grilled cheese is it's like it has this like homey, like nostalgic feel, but like you can still like elevate it. And that said, like my favorite is like like I love like either a goat cheese arugula situation or like an apple bacon brie.

59:23Wow. I think that's such a that's such a good combination is like so far from what I'm thinking myself. Pat, what's your grilled cheese? I mean, my grilled cheese is just more cheese than you would normally think to put on there. I'm a, could we do three slices on there? Let's do three slices. Could we get up to four? I don't know. Maybe. We'll see. But that's, you know, whatever the cheese is, just give me an extra slice of it. Do you ever put it on the outside of the bread so that you get like a little Vulcan-style, like, crispy cheese? Yeah, like this. The Frico? Yeah, the little twisted. the cheese crust.

1:00:00Yeah. You can do a whole like extra thing of cheese on the bread side, you know? Yeah. Well, first I have to shout out the grilled cheese we had in Koreatown, which was on a Hawaiian roll. It was brie and green apple and kimchi with a goji jian mayo smashed and then gone on both sides. I love that. But my grilled cheese is like childhood grilled cheese. It's three slices of Kraft on white bread with mayonnaise on the outside. And like clarified or just crazy butter in the pan and just like smashing it like or not smashing it, but like tapping it down and just making it that stretchy like food styley one.

1:00:40You just reminded me of another sandwich when you said smashing it down. So I'm excited. But I think it's Shalia's turn. You're up. All right. So I think I'm going to move to. Does this count as a sandwich? Like a leftover sandwich. so I feel like the most common example of this is like the classic like Thanksgiving sandwich but I argue you can do this all year like for example I went to Pio Pio for dinner like a couple weeks ago and like ordered entirely too much chicken like I don't need a half a roast chicken I'm one person um and then like had like leftover like maduros and like the green sauce and like had like fresh bread at home and just ate that for two days and it was just the most delightful thing just like make your leftovers new.

1:01:29Love that idea. It's like a construct. All right. And Shalia, via snake draft rules, you have a double pick. I'm going to go ice cream sandwich. I'm getting real kooky with my sandwiches. I'm sorry, Pad. No, that's great. He's like raised his fist into the air. That was a happy raising my fist because I hadn't thought of that, but that's such a, it's such an inspired pick. It's definitely an inspired pick. I just fell in love. Please continue. I love it, yeah. So, okay. specifically I was like I hosted an Oscars party once and this might be common knowledge to everyone else but I'm easily impressed a friend of mine brought like a bunch of pints of ice cream and then was just like taking like a butcher knife to him and slicing him and then had like fresh baked cookies so good so now I do this my favorite is like the Van Leeuwen's like Earl Grey tea ice cream between like two lemon cookies and it's just my favorite thing in the entire world Oh, man.

1:02:19Delightful. What a fun way to, like a great party favor. Yeah, yeah. Are you doing the hot knife trick to cut the ice cream? No, but I should. This is the trick, yeah. Okay. Hot water on a knife, it'll just glide right through. That's so smart. Yeah. Is it my turn? All right. It is your turn. Okay, I'm looking at my list because Matt just kind of shook everything up for me. Yeah, I'm going to say Cubano as my next one. When you said press it down on the grilled cheese. That's so my pick. You took Banhmi and Cubano. They're sitting next to each other on my list, on my paper. And you gave me the idea, but I do really like them.

1:02:57And I was in Miami, and I had a bunch of good ones. And also, I had a really good one right by our offices. There's a place in Times Square. Soapies. No, a different one, but that one's good, too. It's called Margon, and they do Cubanos. We should all go sometime. Margon sounds good. Yeah, love one. what makes it so let's break down the components in your like what kind of cheese is typically kind of component for you oh i mean it's whatever they normally are having right i feel like it's like a white cheese like swiss kind of vibe is what i think of yeah usually at least in new york i've never been to miami so i don't know that style but um and then it's like pork yeah and you know a little bit of like pickle vibe i think to me the fact that you have this bread that's being pressed down so it's like a cracker when you first break through it and then it's fluffy It's just so good.

1:03:44And I feel like I said I don't really like meat and that all of my sandwiches have been meat sandwiches because I have niche ones that I don't think fit for this. But a Cubano is just so good. You absolutely have stolen two of my picks. So thank you very much. Great minds. All right. So I am next and I'm going to go back to the hero genre and I'm going to go with a sausage and pepper hero sandwich. Man. No cheese. Again, this is not Parmesan. John, this is just sausage and pepper. And this is a great to, you know, Shalee was talking about leftovers. There's a great use of leftover. You make sausage and peppers, and the next day you got sausage and pepper sandwich for lunch.

1:04:23I love that. So there's questions here. Are we thinking more of the Polish side, or are we thinking more of the Italian side? I mean, I'm thinking Italian side. All right, all right. Because I feel in Chicago, they've got, like, Polish-style sausage and peppers going on. No, I'm thinking like you've like sliced up the sausage. So it's little pieces of sausage in there. Pat, I have a question for you. I know we're not going niche, but have you been to Rocco's? How do you feel about it? I'm not sure if I have. So you know the Home Depot in Astoria and they have that little shack? Like it's like outside the Home Depot.

1:04:58Like you're walking out and they have the. Yes, I have been there. What are your thoughts about their sausage? It was good. Yeah. No, that was really good. Yeah. And Home Depot had the light bulbs I was looking for. So it was a great afternoon. It's great. Nice. All right. So that was I'm going sausage and pepper. So next up with two picks to close out his draft, it's Matt. All right. I got two picks to close. I can't believe I've gone this far. We've gone this far. And I'm just going to take tuna salad right now. I'm taking it right now, but I'm taking it with dill. Tuna salad with dill. That's the only way I like tuna salad.

1:05:36Okay. I'm scared to speak because I realized what my favorite sandwich is that I haven't said. And I'm waiting for you to see if it's going to be the next one. I have no problem with dill. I'm down for dill. Because I saw your face. I was like, what? No, I had a moment of realization where I was like, I'm an idiot. How have I not said this sandwich? So tuna on rye is my thing. Definitely needs like a firmer bread. I don't like a soft tuna salad, though. My mom back in the day would always make it on like soft bread. And, you know, it's nice. But I feel like or even toast needs to be toasted. Caviar, I hate a tuna melt.

1:06:05I think they're really bad, but that's just me. What's in your perfect tuna salad? Definitely a lot of mayonnaise, pickles, lots of dill as mentioned, a little bit of celery, celery salt, a little bit of Dijon mustard, and that's it, yeah. And it has to be broken down and definitely whipped up. Like I like New York City deli style. Now growing up in the Midwest, I never really had that. like that whipped up super mayonnaise-y style of tuna salad. It was always a little bit like flakier in my household. Probably healthier because it's like the 90s. And yeah, read the 90s. Yeah, keep it simple. I love that.

1:06:41It sounds great. Controversial, but my last pick is the avocado toast. Open face. I wasn't sure if that counted. It counts. And I'm calling it. I'm calling it because I think obviously, Eliza, your face, you're just ready to jump in. I'm going to burst. All right. Please continue. Well. It's not even my turn. I definitely was part of the like communal shade towards avo toast and that whole meme, but I was secretly along the way enjoying an avocado toast at many restaurants that I would go to. I would often make them at home. And yes, it's an import from Australia. And yes, avocados have been around forever.

1:07:18So likely there was avocado toast in Mexico well before their avocado toast in Australia. And we've written about that on taste. but I just love it so much. Do you put anything on the avocado? Yes. I like putting this. So I have two ways to think of it. I like putting something like a spice mix. So even like a dukkah or za 'atar, I've done that before. I like a kind of a more flavorful spice blend. I've also put some astringent chili on it in the past. It needs something to cut through the avocado, so chili crisp or fried garlic. I can get into that. Oh, yeah, I could get into that. I've been doing furikake with red pepper lately.

1:08:00Furikake is great, too. So. All right. So I'm up next. And I don't know if there's going to be any argument whether this is a sandwich or not, but I'm going to say falafel, a falafel sandwich, which on the menus, it says falafel plate or falafel sandwich. The word sandwich is built in there. A little bit of a stretch. But it's in a pita. It's in a pita. Yeah. If he gets this one, I get like carte blanche on my next one. So there's that much pushback on a menu item that says sandwich. It's in the taco hot dog realm. It's in the hot dog realm, but not the taco realm because it's a pocket of something.

1:08:40Oh, it closes. It closes. Yeah. I mean, you could see what's inside, but I think, you know, as a producer here, I think I'm going to put the stamp of sandwich on this. I respect it, Pat. And you definitely have final say. There you go. And listen, I love a falafel. I don't, it's not, it's the type of sandwich I never make at home, unlike a sausage and pepper or something like that. It's only, it's a treat going somewhere, getting some falafel, walking through the streets in New York City with the falafel drip that you're avoiding as you walk, which is my favorite part. I love when a sandwich gives you like an activity to do, which is to avoid the drip out.

1:09:23Avoid the drip is key. Yeah. Is it Tayeem? Is it Mamoun's? Do you have a place? I mean, I went to NYU years ago, so I'm always going to be a Mamoun's guy. Yeah. I love that. God, I miss living within walking distance of Mamoun's. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one. That's my final pick is the falafel sandwich. Respect it. Do you like hummus on it? Not especially. Prina? Yeah. Do you like tahini on it? I like tahini, yeah. All right. What about pickles? Um, I'm not asking for extra pickles. All right. Respect. And you're doing like the full like salad or. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Big salad. Yeah. Yeah.

1:09:58Yum. So there we go. So I go falafel. Eliza, you are up with your final pick. Okay. I'm sorry for making a scene, but this is actually my favorite sandwich. BLT. Oh, my God. How did we get this far without BLT? So that's what I realized. And I was dancing around it. I was saying all of these other pork sandwiches. but BLT, God tier sandwich. The reason why I keep bacon, I do not cook meat at home except I make BLTs at home and I keep bacon year round, not year round. In the summer, I always have bacon because I'm always making BLTs. Yeah, it's definitely a summer market. Are you going full heat bacon or are you going like turkey bacon?

1:10:38No, pork bacon, turkey bacon if I'm cooking for some of my friends that don't eat pork, but just, you know, maybe I'll grate some garlic into my mayo if I'm being fancy. Maybe not. Lots of good lettuce. I feel like also I buy a lot of lettuce in the summer and it goes bad fast. So the BLT is kind of helping everyone along. Good tomatoes. I would do a tomato sandwich without the bacon, but a BLT to me is just the perfect food. I feel BLTs for me is like, you know, August 15th through September 7th. That's like truly when I make them. When the tomatoes are really good. Yeah. New York, at least, that's when they are.

1:11:12Yeah. I think I do wait for them. I get a little impatient at a certain point in the summer, but also they're a very nostalgic food for me. Growing up, bacon was like the only pork my family would cook in the home. I don't know why that was the exception, but BLTs are just like pure summer nostalgia. Love that. All right. So Shalaya, you've got the final pick. And, you know, after the whole falafel debacle, I think you're going to have a wide range on what a sandwich could be. I just think if we've set the precedent that a pocket is a sandwich, I'm going lobster roll like I'm doing it. I mean, I can't be the one to argue against this because I'm the falafel guy.

1:11:50I think it's absolutely a fair argument. This is digressed. This is devolved. We're at the final chapter. We're at the final round. What's the mystique for you? I mean like I can also be picky technically about a lobster roll like I definitely love like a more mayo base than a butter base although I'll eat like hand me a lobster roll I'll eat any of it but for me I think it's like really environmental in the same way that you were talking about like bacon is the way that I feel about lobster um like it just reminds me of summer reminds me of vacation uh my partner's family lives on Cape Cod my brother lives like out on like Block Island sound like just like give me a lobster roll like on a deck somewhere with like a light beer in the summer and it's like oh man i am in my best place and this is like new england style yes so yes split split top bun yes yes yes has to be thank you yeah i think split top and then like definitely nice butter like like clarified butter on the on the bun oh on the bun yes yes yes um but you do like you like a mayonnaise based one i prefer but i also will take like a like dredged butter lobster roll as well.

1:12:59So yeah, that's really the difference. It's like the butter base or the mayonnaise base. But you prefer mayonnaise. Yeah, they're both fantastic. They're both good? I'm just on the Wikipedia for a sandwich looking up the definition right now. I don't know if it's relevant at this stage. It's a little late in the game, Elijah, but I appreciate your kind of sticking with the rules. Yeah, I mean, it's very vague. I think that whatever we want can be a sandwich. And I think a lobster roll is like the perfect one to end on. I have to say, I've been to some stupid media events over the years, just working media.

1:13:27and I think the greatest media event to my life was when I went to an event and it was all you could eat lobster rolls. Oh, I would have hurt myself. I did. I mean, I hurt myself because like Luke's was set up and they were like, it was basically just like one of those like trucks and you could just like keep going up to like the truck. How many times did you go back? I mean, if I'm going to say four, what do you think? I'd buy that. Yeah, that seems right. Lobster rolls are so expensive. That's respectable. That's what I'm saying. Like that's like almost a hundred bucks, man. If you eat three figures worth of lobster rolls, man.

1:14:00Shall I just give us a quick recap of what our teams are? I love it. Yeah. So Shalia's sandwich team is meatball sub, and then it's leftover sandwich, which I love. Then ice cream sandwich, and then lobster roll. So Shalia, I think most creative team, I think, is going to end up going to Shalia. Yeah, you're like the wild card Maverick. No, really good stuff there. So then Eliza's sandwich team is the banh mi and the grilled cheese, the Cubano and the BLT. Wow. A real classic. Real classic. Really like my list basically that you stole. Look, I didn't choose to go first. It's the luck of the draft.

1:14:43Two of four were on my list for the top four. All right. And then Team Pat is the roast beef sandwich from John's Deli, corned beef Reuben, sausage and pepper hero. and the falafel sandwich. Nice. Very New York-like. Exactly. I was about to say. So I was going to say that. And then. You live your truth right there. Listen, you stay in one place forever, you're going to get to like their sandwiches. And aside before we get to the final, have you been to Pat's in Philadelphia? Have I been to the cheesesteak? Yeah. Yes, I have been. I love cheesesteaks. I love that. I also love that cheesesteaks are not in our draft.

1:15:21I'm just like very proud of us. I thought about it. I'm very proud. Yeah. Well, listen, taste is based in New York, so. So proud. All right. And then the final team is Team Matt is PB &J, Egg McMuffin, Tuna Salad with Dill. I had that noted. And then Avocado Toast. Kind of like the All-American one. I know. It feels a little modern. Yeah. It's the Midwestern sandwich guy. I feel I need a Cubano on there, and it's going to feel right. You want to trade me? Yeah, I do. We can do some trading off mic. So, okay. On mic, yeah. So, Cubano, what is it going to take? I'll trade you PB &J. Uh-uh. That's still my number one.

1:16:04I'll trade you tuna salad. I'll definitely give you that trade. Appreciate it. I have a lot of pork going on. So I'll do that one. You're welcome. I feel like it's complete now. All right. Well, it's got to go through the commissioner's office first before the trades are approved. So we'll let listeners know in a future episode of Trade went through. Okay. But, yeah, that's our draft. I think listeners should vote on which sandwich team they want to. Yeah, if you made it this far, definitely write in. Below at tastecooking.com, H-E-L-O at tastecooking. Who won out of the four of us? Who won? Whose team do you want to eat the most?

1:16:38We will say your name and we will say your pick on a future episode. All right. I got to go eat a sandwich. Yeah. Thanks for drafting, guys.

1:16:52This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.