239: Jenny Rosenstrach

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. And I've been dealing with this way before TikTok, just like it's been a mission of mine to just simplify recipe writing in general. Because it's like a tussle between you want the instructions to be as clear as possible. But also, if you over-explain, suddenly your recipe is a page long and that just, the sight of that is so intimidating. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard.

0:59I'm always happy to hang out with Jenny Rosenstrock, a talented writer and editor behind a highly enjoyable newsletter and a series of cookbooks. For many followers of the home cooking internet, Dinner, A Love Story has been a steady hand holding the whisk for the past decade. She has released the New York Times bestseller, The Weekday Vegetarians, and is working on a follow-up that we discuss on this episode. We also dig into her upcoming move back to New York City after living nearly two decades in the suburbs. What will city cooking be like for Jenny? Different. I hope you enjoy my talk with Jenny Rosenstrock.

1:41Jenny Rosenstrock, welcome back to Taste Podcast. It's so nice to be here. I love seeing you. We did a Zoom version of this previously, and it was great. But man, this is fun. I know. It's so much better. Everything is so much better now that we're back. Speaking of better, you're moving back to New York City. I am. This is, I mean, if all goes well with the contracts. Right. The lawyers. But yeah, we will, no matter what, we will be back in the city. And yeah, we've been, you know, in the suburbs for 20 years. So, and I remember we left, we used to live in Brooklyn Heights. Yeah. And I remember closing the door on the Brooklyn Heights apartment and saying, I'm coming back here after the kids are grown up and gone.

2:21And I always thought I would go back to Brooklyn Heights, but we're going to move back to the Upper West Side. I love the Upper West Side energy. Manhattan is, you can't beat it. I mean, I haven't lived in Manhattan since I was 22, 23. So who knows? I'm sure it will be very different from back then, but I'm very excited. Well, I want to hear about your, well, you're looking forward to moving back to the city because, you know, Dinner to Love Story and just your newsletter is really centered around your life. And it's very personal. And we know that you live just outside New York City and your children are off at college and now you're moving back to the city and you haven't quite written about it on your newsletter yet.

2:59But, man, what in the hell? Where are you going to go for restaurants? Like you can be a regular now. I know. That's what I'm most excited about, I have to say. You know, when we travel to big cities, we always like the most exciting thing is always discovering, you know, what's going to be our regular this and that for the week. And, you know, we live out we live literally 18 miles from where we're moving. But it's might as well be another planet. And like you to live somewhere versus I mean, whether it's New York City or anywhere versus visiting a place is just so different. And I think what I'm looking forward to the most is just finding my new coffee shop, finding my new diner.

3:41Like, I mean, obviously, I'm so excited for the for the restaurants and the but, you know, to be honest, we've we use the city a lot as, you know, even though we're we have to take we have to commute in. But we use it. And and because of that, I think we like we're always like, oh, we have to try this restaurant and we have to go down here and we're meeting these people. And there's something like very event-ish about it, even if it's just meeting friends for dinner because we have to go back. And I'm just so looking forward to kind of that just discovering something. Yes. The walks. Walking around.

4:12Just like not the place that everyone was talking about, but just like, oh, there's this like weird coffee shop that I've never heard of. I'm going to go downstairs and try a cold brew. Like just stuff like that. I'm so – I am so excited for that. It's cool. And really, I know you'll write about it, too, which is why I love subscribing to your newsletter because, like, you write about these discoveries. And let me – are there restaurants that you just really are looking forward to checking out? Yeah. I mean, there are restaurants – I mean, there are always restaurants I'm looking forward to checking out.

4:42But I hope to be a regular at Cafe Luxembourg, which is – I'm kind of already – I feel like I'm a regular there just because that – We really rediscovered that place during the pandemic because the outdoor seating was so amazing. And the energy, I mean, I don't know if he went at all, but the energy was not compromised at all. It just felt like I think the older I get, the more I really appreciate that like old New York energy and like the institution. And that's really just the bar there. Yeah, it's a great place. And I'd love to have somebody from the restaurant on the show eventually. Yeah.

5:16It's a real institution. Now, what about the cooking side? because you're moving from a sizable kitchen. I mean, the photos in your books show a pretty nice setup to a New York City apartment kitchen. How the hell are you going to negotiate this? That's a really good question. I'm hoping you could give me some advice on that. I mean, honestly, I'm very much looking forward to downsizing my whole life. I mean, I think it's going to be tricky in the kitchen. But I don't know how much my cooking will change. You know, we have access to so many. I feel like my shopping will change, like because I can I can like go to Citarella and get seafood and go to Trader Joe's and still get my white balsamic vinegar, you know, but but and I won't have to get in a car every time I have to do that, which, you know, I'm very much looking forward to the walking.

6:03But for the most part, I think, you know, my cooking changed so much when my kids graduated from high school and left for college, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And just cooking for two is so different than cooking for kids and cooking for, you know, just for, you know, twice as many people. And and you just always feel like I mean, at least I always felt like I have to have to really think about dinner versus now, which is, oh, we'll just decide like right before and figure something. And that's like the fun, the inspiration, the spontaneous nature of cooking for two versus. I mean, it's totally different.

6:35And I feel like but I do find that just being with we have a lot of friends who are in the situation. And and what happens is like we go out during the week all the time now because of it or we have people over during the week. And so now which is like such a nice vibe for entertaining, you know, because it's just there's like not as much pressure. I mean, not that there's really I mean. But the big Saturday dinner party has a bit of a pressure. I think there's like you put it on yourself. mostly. It's not from the guests, but like I've had all day to prep and I don't have an excuse of like something during the day.

7:05Yeah. And I think you're like kind of at the dining room table or the outdoor patio table instead of like the kitchen table. And I think there's nothing more that I love more than cooking for people in my kitchen. It just feels so much more. I feel like I don't have to clean the house or anything. It's just they're just like my kids coming over. And I did when I was looking for an apartment. that was like a big thing. I wanted to be able to have an open kitchen so that we could kind of have that same vibe. And so. You talk about downsizing your life. Now, let me ask you, what's not making the trip kitchen equipment wise?

7:39There's gotta be a couple things that you're gonna be, you know, putting on a Facebook marketplace or. I have a whole cemetery, like in one upper cabinet that's, you know, it's a, the juicer. When we were into like celery juicing because we were told my, you know, My daughter had some rash that wouldn't go away. Oh, yeah. We all bought the Breville juicer. We all had that juicer. I think it was the Breville. Yeah, it was the Breville. Which is a dope juicer, straight up. Love that juicer. I loved it, but we just don't do it. That's not making the trip. Honestly, this is probably a hot take, but I don't think the slow cooker is coming.

8:13No way. I don't use a slow cooker, and I know people... I love it. I think I'm just very old school. You use the Dutch oven on the range. Kind of, yeah. I mean, not kind of, absolutely. But also just this idea of something cooking all day. Like I'm still like amazed that you can like put a piece of chicken in a marinade and then it's like getting flavorful all day. I'm like, that's a miracle. And to me, that's like as much high tech as I need. Like I just love that. I don't really – I also just feel like it never comes out exactly right in the slow cooker, which is fine. Like it's a Tuesday night dinner.

8:47Who cares if it's exactly right? But I'm just – you know, I have the luxury of working from home. So I don't need – You can have it on the flame. I think that's a great point. Like sometimes you don't have the luxury and you want to break down like a very muscly cut of beef. Yeah. And you need that slow cooker and like Sloppy Joe's, like shout to that, like works well. So Jenny, what else is not making the cut? I'm a little worried about our coffee gear because over the years we've collected a lot. My husband is very into making his own coffee. Yeah. Good for him. I love that. I saw Andy in the elevator.

9:17Andy Ward is an editor here at Penguin Random House and great man and a great taste in beverages, apparently. Definitely into coffee. And, you know, someone came over from – we had everyone over for Mother's Day the other day. And someone was like, can I get a cup of coffee? We just hadn't thought to make coffee. And then Andy's in there grinding his beans, doing his pour over. It's like half an hour later, he has his one cup of coffee. You know, it's just funny. Like it's such an event in our house to make a cup of coffee when we're not going out, which is also a ritual. But, yeah, there's so much gear.

9:49He has his grinder and he has his pour over apparatus. to see his electric kettle. There's just every day I'm like, really? We need that too? But, you know, he's, and then bags and bags. He orders from Joshua Tree Coffee out in California. No way. I don't know that one. Interesting. I mean, huge, like, I mean, I don't know the exact weight, but like, it's like a dog food size bag of coffee. And he just. So he's a big drinker because he. Yeah, he's very into it. So I got it. I got to get him hooked with. Yes, please. That's my guy. So Joshua Tree, are there any other coffees in your household? That's kind of the one.

10:24Okay. That's totally. So some of this gear may be pared down. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I hope to, you know, it's like when you have cabinets, you fill them, right? A hundred percent. And you never look at it anymore. And you never look at it. So I'm really going to do a hard take on what we're using in the moment. It's exciting. Is there any investment you're going to make in the new kitchen that you kind of don't have in your kitchen right now? this is another hot take there's a microwave in my new kitchen that's built in and we don't have a microwave now we talked about that before maybe off mic or whenever you did not have a microwave i did not have a microwave for 17 years and i have one in my house now and is it how do you feel changes my life i use it every single day okay i'm a big like cheese tortilla guy for snacking and there's no better way to that that makes a lot of sense yes and reheating coffee like for me it's reading coffee that's that's where i feel like i will um discover how much i missed it maybe i don't know but but there is talk about removing it um we always just had a second oven instead of the microwave and i just found that i used that just because i'm testing recipes it just made more sense for me i'm not saying that i'm not trying to make some blanket statement no no one should have microwaves but but i know you're not and but hot take here you know what instant microwavable rice is like will save your save your life that i can see for sure just sometimes you just don't have the time and it's kind of good i get it um you love substack like it's totally your shit you like you love the platform you thrive on it and i want to know you've been doing it for a while and you have a lot of readers and a lot of paid subscribers why do you love it so much i i mean i've been doing it for two and a half years and i feel like i did when i launched my blog, Dinner Love Story, in 2010.

12:13I just couldn't stop working and I just loved it so much. And I just, I remember just being, just working all day until the kids came home and then when they went to bed, I would work on it again. It just was so fun. And I mean, you'll appreciate this. I kind of cut my teeth in magazines. I mean, not kind of, I did. I was in magazines for 15 years before the magazine I was working for shut down. And then I launched the website. And I think I have forever been trying to get back to my magazine jobs because I loved I loved working on magazines. And I'm still like kind of brokenhearted over the fact that industry doesn't exist.

12:51I came up in magazines as well, worked in two magazines before going online. And there's nothing like it. I mean, I think it really does like teach a certain rigor in terms of, you know, because you're putting something out there that you can't fix later, you know, and it's so you have to be so careful. And and just even with recipe testing, You have to just test and test and test. It's not – and you have to have – remember display copy, just like captions and pull quotes. Yeah, and like cut to fit, which we do in books a lot. So working in the book world, it's similar. But cut to fit like with like an hour to do it before you close pages, it's the greatest feeling.

13:28I don't miss the closing feeling. I do. But yes, I like that cut to fit feeling. I miss closes. I used to do closes and it's been like 15 years since I worked in magazines. but closes were so – where were you at? I want to just start for our listeners to go. I started at just like a magazine that was owned by A &E Television called Biography Magazine, and they did like – basically it was like a people magazine, or we wanted to be people. Dude, big biography thing here. I mean in terms of like the – This was the 90s. The A &E Biography Network or the shows? Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was huge. So good.

14:01That was fun because I was just an assistant, but it was a very small staff, so I got to do a lot. And then I went the more traditional route. I went to Real Simple. So I was like the word person in the food department, you know, like I wasn't in the kitchen. I was just like shaping the stories. Big ideas, packages, like doing editorial left there. So fun. And then I went to Cookie Magazine, which was the parenting magazine owned by Condé Nast. And then I just had kind of free landscapes at like Martha Stewart and Bon Appetit. And I had a column at Bon Appetit for six years with Andy, with my husband.

14:33That's right. On feeding kids. And I just like so to get back to Substack, I just that whole idea of just like figuring out the mix and the pacing and the visuals like matching with the words and the captions and the pull quotes. I just feel like I've recreated that as much as I can on Substack, you know. So my one post every week is called Three Things and it's just three things I'm excited about. It's a package. It's great. It's easy to read. It's perfect. And yeah, and package is exactly the right word because that was sort of what I did in magazines. Like remember there was like there were the packages.

15:05It was like the, you know, I'm trying to think of one. I mean you could do like slow brazing package where you have like, you know, three pieces of equipment on one side and then you've got your two recipes. Exactly. That was so – and like you just coming up with those ideas was always so much fun or just like traveling with kids and then it's like the, you know, what to pack. And then so it's like multidisciplinary. You can have like reading and you can have, you know, the food, the snacks on the plane, you know. Sorry. This is some real cookie content. I'm feeling it. Yeah. No, but that was my thing.

15:38I loved those packages. And so I think when I kind of figured this out recently that I'm like, oh, that's what three things is. It's really just trying to figure out. It's like a mini package every week. Like it's not strictly food. It's always like the idea is that one thing on there is going to be a little surprising to people who didn't necessarily know they wanted to know about this. But, oh, now that it's here, it's nice that it's there. It's great. And I love the way you write it, too. You write it very honestly. And you have like a sharp voice to it, too. Do you listen to the podcast Prince is Dead, Long Live Print?

16:07No. Oh, my God. Should I? I'm going to link to in the show notes. Yes, you should. It is. There's like only like maybe a half dozen or no, a couple dozen episodes. But I was listening to the Dorothy Kalins episode. It's basically all old magazine editors talking about the industry. Oh, my God. I would absolutely love that. It's great. Yeah, you had, who did you have? Dana Brown? Oh, yeah, Dana Brown. That was so fun to listen to. But I was listening to that episode going, I cannot believe that magazines existed. Like that world, which was so that Condé Nast lifestyle. It's so hard for me to get my head around that now.

16:43Dana's book is so good. It is such a must read. He was amazing. He was amazing. And then I had Delia Kajan, who's now a front of book editor at Vanity Fair 2023. It's just like a very different situation. I can imagine. It's totally. And, you know, for good or for bad. I mean, I think that the way Vanity Fair has evolved is cool to see. Yeah. I still read airmail every week. I love Graydon Carter's. I didn't always love Graydon Carter, but I feel like he's really created something that's almost addictive. Right. It's really good. We could talk about magazines all day. I know. Literally. But let's pivot to something that's kind of related, and it's TikTok.

17:21Now, I know we were in the elevator, and maybe TikTok isn't something that you think about that much, But I'd like to get a sense of when you do come across TikTok, what do you what do you think about TikTok and cooking? I mean, I love it. You know, I should say I'm not on TikTok as much as just reels on Instagram. I mean, I'm technically on TikTok, but I don't go there as often. But I mean, I'm amazed. It's sort of like what blogging did back in the early 2000s. Like you're like, oh, my God, there's all this talent out there, you know, and it's just it's it. These are not just great cooks. These are movie makers.

18:00I mean, and they all have these signature aesthetics and vibes. And it's just, it's like this perfect little package in, you know, 90 seconds. And it's impressive. And I've tried a few. I do enjoy making them. But they're a lot of work, you know? I mean, it's kind of, you kind of have to commit to it. Like have a team working on it or, I mean, at least for me, maybe I'm just old school. No, no, it's a real skill set. And I guess my question or my comment about TikTok is this, is like people are learning to cook by TikTok. And it's really changing the way we in food media, you, a newsletter writer and a magazine writer, us running Taste, we think about instruction.

18:40And honestly, we're not writing articles about turning artichokes anymore, like the written article about how to turn an artichoke. Like you're going to go to TikTok for that or YouTube. Right. I think that's absolutely true. I also just find and I've been dealing with this way before TikTok just like it's been a mission of mine to just simplify recipe recipe writing in general because it's it's like a tussle between you want the instructions to be as clear as possible. But also if you over explain suddenly your recipe is a page long and that just the sight of that is so intimidating. And like just you know I remember writing a recipe for a sandwich and being like place the avocado on the toast of bread.

19:20And it's like it's you don't and then it makes the recipe just look more complicated and sound more complicated than it is. And so then, you know, it definitely TikTok has made that mission all the more clear. Like I need to when I'm writing recipes, I'm making sure that my ingredient list is as minimal as possible. I'm making sure my instructions are as clear as possible with as few words as possible. But, you know, that's something I've always been working on. And now, you know, just to your artichoke point, it is really nice to be like, oh, and then, you know, you turn your artichoke and then you just link to the video.

19:56Exactly. So you don't have to write it all out. And so in that way, it's great. Yeah. I mean, net positive big time. I just think it's changing the way we think about writing words for the world to read about cooking. I think that's true. I mean, but I am curious to know, like, so people, this is a very naive question. do people cook watching the video over and over? Like when it's actually time to cook, are they just improvising the way that, or they're following the recipe that's on the Instagram caption or the TikTok caption? Like I just, I don't do it. So I don't know how people are using it.

20:34So. I think that you fill in the blanks with the video content. I think that you start at a recipe or an idea and then you fill in the blanks and then you kind of, your journey to the end is your own journey. And some who are intuitive enough, Many of our listeners are intuitive and many are not. But those who are intuitive can kind of figure out how the rest of it falls together. Is it making a sandwich or is it making a mayonnaise? Right. I think you like cross-reference points. But I think the big picture, and I've spoken with some folks here at Crown, like it's why cookbooks are so important and so valuable.

21:09paying$30 or less to have like this big thing that you can go to whenever you want to figure out maybe what's not on that video, what's not on that article and just like put it together. I think that's why they're everlasting and they'll always be here, these cookbooks. Yes, I am from your lips to God's ears. Well, we're in the industry and super biased. Let's talk about your cookbooks because I feel like you have written in different, you've written Dinner and a Love Story and several in that kind of wheelhouse. And then your last book, a New York Times bestseller, The Weekday Vegetarians, huge hit.

21:45And of course, it's what it says. It's eating less meat, eating more plants, all that stuff. And you've just finished the manuscript for your follow-up. I have not finished it, but I'm close to finishing it. I'm supposed to be finishing it in the next two weeks. I think I'll make it. But yeah, so it's take two on The Weekday Vegetarians. I love it. So what's the book and when's it coming out? I think right now the plan is for next fall, fall 2024. And it's basically it's the same concept, which is just how to dial back meat in a very real life way. You know, the first book was about Monday through Friday, literally not eating meat.

22:25And then on the weekend going crazy, you know, but I mean, obviously, that's just a that's a conceit. And, you know, we stick to that kind of five to two rule, but it's not necessarily Saturdays and Sundays. So I've gotten a lot of – I mean the plant-based cooking for me was new when I wrote that book. So I just still feel like I'm learning so much every day. So, I mean I basically could have written entirely the same book but just with new recipes with that concept. And the overlay of this next book is basically how to make everything faster. Oh. Yeah. So speed. Speed. That's smart. Speed and just like the shortcuts because what I found and I found this out through Substack when I asked my readers, I said, what is holding you back from like cooking in a more plant based direction?

23:13Like why? What are the big obstacles? And there were so many and there were a lot of contradictory ones. Like, for instance, people feeding ravenous teenagers. Oh, it's not filling enough. They're not going to like tofu, cabbage, spinach, salad, whatever. Or it's too carby. It's, you know, like when you're a vegetarian, you rely too much on carbs and cheese. Or it's too complicated. You need sauces to make things taste better. So the new book is sort of each chapter is addressing each one of those problems. There you go. The packaging. You got it. No, you're a real gift at this. No, it's smart.

23:50I know. Sometimes I'm like, do I have any skill in this world? And then I think magazine packaging. Content. Content creation. So each chapter is addressing an issue. I guess my, when you ask like that question, mine is like what people may think is like flavor. I'm missing the flavor of a braised piece, like a braised lamb. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And that's funny. I mean, there's a little section on just vegetarian umami fixes. There's not a whole chapter, but maybe that's a really good idea. Oh, let's just tear it up. You know, let's just write a new chapter in two weeks now. I can do that in a day.

24:28I feel like you can. You're actually joking, but I think you probably can. No, but I think like flavor is something that I think about. But also all those other points are super smart. Like I think of the carb thing too. Like when I've gone plant-based, I've kind of relied on like, you know, legumes. Yeah. And legumes are amazing. Like shout out to Steve Sando. Like come on. I know. Great industry. But man, that's a lot of carbs. I know. It is. And also, I mean, so the answer to that question is a section on soup and salad, which sounds like very, you know, like Oban Pan, like 90s. But it's really the way to do it.

25:00Like, I mean, I had the most perfect dinner the other night. It was it's a recipe from the new book. It's like a avocado. It's a chill. It was a chilled avocado cucumber soup with miso and jalapeno and stuff. And which is just kind of a twist on one that I've done for a long time just without chicken broth. And I was using the miso kind of to your point, like kind of compensates for that for that, like kind of. Roasted bone flavor, like the brothy flavor. Yeah. So that was my soup. And then I made not a salad, but I just roasted some vegetables and with just like a yogurt sauce or something. I like drizzled some sauce on it.