240: Alex Stupak

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. Is cooking a blue-collar profession or a white-collar profession? And I think that's kind of up to you to decide. But you wouldn't whistle in a courtroom when you're about to litigate. And you wouldn't have your materials all willy-nilly. So to that point, the kitchen can be that if you want it to be. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbarg.

0:59Former pastry chef and current empayone and mishabas, Alex Stupak, is a complicated and incredibly sincere dude. And in this episode, we have a really spirited conversation about what it's like to open a new restaurant that isn't part of the empayone Mexican multiverse. The food here is Eastern European and Stupak's most personal project to date. We talk about that and his big ideas for the future. I hope you enjoy my talk with Alex.

1:33Alex Tupac, welcome back to the Taste Podcast. Thanks for having me. Excited to be back. It's awesome to see you. I've seen you since, but we lasted you on in the spring of 2019. And a lot has changed. You've opened restaurants. We've had a pandemic. And Emplione remains my favorite restaurant still. Like, honestly, one of my favorite restaurants around. I really appreciate that. Thank you. I it's so consistent and delicious. And what have you been up to? Well, like you said, there was there was a pandemic there. Yeah, right. We all dealt with that. So for the most part, I was, you know, living in fear and trying to cobble all our businesses back together and get them back open.

2:13I think that's mostly what we've been doing the last few years. But we did open a couple of things, which I'm thankful for. Yeah, opening post-pandemic too, in New York City, must have been challenging. We'll talk about Misha, your new restaurant in Midtown East. But what was the biggest challenge to get Misha off the ground? Again, there's all these things related to the pandemic. The aftershock of it really did affect everyone. Everything you heard about supply chain shortages, it wasn't just eggs and cheese and butter. It was plywood and, you know, electrical supplies, copper pipe. So just the physical act of building the restaurants, which is always onerous, to be honest, it was even more so.

2:59Yeah. Just getting getting those those heavy pieces of equipment into Midtown into an office building is just alone. It's a ballet. No, 100 percent. You heard, you know, you heard about this great worker shortage in restaurants. There was also shortages of plumbers and electricians and carpenters. It really did touch everything. I want to go back a little bit because the last time we didn't really tap into this too much, but when did you start cooking professionally? I don't think I've ever asked you this. I would love to get your take on that. Professionally? Yeah, what was like your earliest job?

3:28I know we'll get into the future career, but where did you start? I think I was a prep cook and dishwasher at a restaurant in Lemonster, Massachusetts called The Pewter Pot when I was 13. Wow. Just like a real classic story. story. I feel like that's like such a like a Bourdain story. Yeah. Like I tried a few different things. You know, I tried to I don't know. I tried to be a cashier once and it was just so freaking boring. And I kind of always knew I wanted to cook from a pretty young age. So I was just always trying to do something. You know, I worked at a country club. I worked at a catering company.

4:05You worked at a cafe, you know, so I was definitely touching food all throughout high school. And so your your family was in the restaurant business, your grandfather and your father? No, my grandfather was a chef. My father was not. My grandfather died pretty young, apparently, but he was a chef. And my dad would tell a lot of stories about, you know, him working in his father's restaurant. He has a lot of regret. He feels like he would have been a chef if his dad had lived longer or mentored him, I guess. But yeah, my dad was not a professional chef, but he was definitely the cook of the household and food was always important.

4:43Back to that first job. How did you feel when you were working in a kitchen at 13? What was that feeling like? I don't know. There's definitely a there's definitely a sense of pride, even though it's like a harder life to to get out of class and then go work for, you know, a solid six to seven hours and be really tired in the morning. But I was always really proud of of working hard. I felt like I was getting ahead on something that I I knew in my heart I was going to do forever. So, Alex, what I'm hearing is that the physical element, the physical aspect of the job, the hard work of working in a restaurant, also like completing a task at the end of the day, that was like an early draw?

5:26For sure. I think cooking is unique because it's physical, but it is also intellectual. um i don't think i'm a non-intelligent person but when it comes to the real studious aspect of school growing up i just never did well at it mostly because i didn't want to yeah i didn't want to read that story you weren't applying yourself yeah but it's because the thing i don't know i just i guess i don't like the theoretical stuff i like the directly applicable stuff to learn about something and then be able to stand up and do it it's interesting because it's like cooking is cause and effect, right? It is.

6:01Like, I mean, I think gardening is that way. Anything that it is a skill that requires intelligence, but then you get to do it and work at it, like physically work at it. Maybe that just means you're a certain type of learner. Yeah. Well, totally. There's absolutely, absolutely different styles of learning and you've hit something that you enjoy because clearly you, during your career, you learned, you mentored, you were under mentorship and you have mentored in the future. But let me ask you, where did you actually go pro when you became like a professional? Well, okay. So I, I had the good fortune, my high school, I had the choice to, to go to a vocational school.

6:41So I got to take culinary arts. They didn't call it that there. They call it food services. I think they were more grooming you to be a fast food worker, but I did get to cook, uh, four years through high school. I went to the Culinary Institute of America, Cleo in Boston. And I worked in restaurants before that. But Cleo in Boston to me was a marker of like my first sort of hardcore kitchen where I felt like like these are real cooks and these are real ingredients. And they're talking to you in a very real and direct and intense way. Yeah. I mean, widely recognized as one of the finest restaurants in the area.

7:19I remember the anniversary came up a few years ago and that was a huge deal. A lot of people have gone through Clio. Yeah. Ken is, Ken was a, I mean, he still is. Ken Oranger, that is. Ken Oranger. Yeah. Very intense chef. When I was working for him, extremely driven to be the best in Boston. Rarity was a big deal. So you like, you got to work with ingredients that you'd never seen before. And I'm not just talking about like truffles and foie gras you're talking about like pico rocco barnacles from south america things like that yeah like real rarity so he was in sourcing was obviously extremely important and and and shipping things in from all over the world for sure yeah then you end up at alinea what's that like um alinea so a couple things happened in between there so first time i worked Cleo, I was a cook.

8:10And then I went back to culinary school and then I got out. I cooked in Chicago for a little bit, moved back to Boston, took a job. And then that turned into my first pastry chef job, which then I left and then became the pastry chef at Cleo. And that was very different. Going to the pastry kitchen for me, it wasn't about, weirdly, it wasn't about a passion for pastry. It was about wanting to be left alone at a young age. You know, like, so I had the good fortune to kind of tinker in these kitchens and create and kind of teach myself more or less. And I think I developed a style in the basement of Cleo's kitchen.

8:56And that's what I think got me to able to be worked to work at Alinea, which was totally different. Which was a whole nother phase. I'm just reminded of the show The Bear and the character who's teaching himself pastry on the side. Right. It seems like that like is a real thing, clearly from what you just said. Yeah. Again, Cleo never had a pastry chef before me. And Ken felt like he needed to have one to take the restaurant to the next level. And they just stuffed me in a makeshift kitchen in the basement where I did it, you know, not working for that much money. but I like again I felt like I could make a lot of mistakes um without worrying about anyone looking over my shoulder or me embarrassing myself which was an important process really a luxury when you're in pastry because oftentimes there are many people looking at you when you're in a kitchen yeah and again Cleo was a very busy restaurant but also a small restaurant so I was kind of able to do it all myself okay was there a signature that you from that era that you felt you really, really nailed?

9:56Yeah. Well, we did this, we came up with this one technique where we figured out how to encapsulate a liquid in ice, you know, in essentially a sorbet, which was very innovative. And I worked that technique over and over and over again. I did it at Alinea. I did it at WD-50. I even did it a little bit beyond at MPEOM, but then sooner or later it was kind of like, you got to put this to bed. You got to stop. So I love that you've teased out the rest of your career because we'll get to all those points but to back to chicago you're working with grant ackett's and and you know you speak about the intensity at cleo but man legendary intensity of alinea and many people don't even make the first week yeah no um the that kitchen has an almost monastic silence to it um you can hear a pin drop you can hear you can hear the little motor were when you turn on the induction burner.

10:53No whistling. Oh, God, no. Oh, God, no. Nothing. No superfluous noise whatsoever. And, you know, Grant had built this amazing reputation. He was doing all this food that no one had seen before at Trio in Evanston. And he bought, I think he kind of built up this cult following. so bringing Alinea to Chicago was a very um intense opening yeah I think there was um a ton of expectation from outsiders but surely uh 10 times more from Grant he was very clear that he wanted this to be the best restaurant in the United States period wow and I mean that's that's a real that's a leap from from his previous restaurant I mean he was well regarded regionally but he was going for it hard.

11:44Oh, yeah. There wasn't a let's hope we get it. Right. There was none of that. What does the silence do? You know, I think our listeners, and what's going through my brain is that seems pretty insane and maybe even crazy, but there's got to be clearly a reason for this monastic silence in a kitchen. Yeah. And, like, look, it also depends on what type of restaurant you have. Yeah. Like, my restaurants, I think they do sound like kitchens. but at the same time I don't care for whistling I don't care for superfluous noise and I think that just comes down to professionalism you know I think you know is cooking a blue collar profession or a white collar profession and I think that's kind of up to you to decide you know but you wouldn't whistle in a courtroom when you're about to litigate yeah right and you know So and you wouldn't have your materials all willy nilly.

12:39You wouldn't you know, you would be tight. So to that point, the kitchen can be that your knife case can be that if you want it to be. Yeah. And again, the great thing about this business is it can really be different things for different people. For some people, the idea of that level of intensity might sound awful or oppressive. And that's OK, too. There's no right or wrong. You know what I mean? Some kitchens are more jovial, I guess, or fun. and there's nothing wrong with it. You know, that's the cool thing about it. It's not a moral thing. It's just more of a preferential thing. Yeah, exactly.

13:13And there's different cultures in office jobs. Like you work at a certain place if you have different expectations for different jobs. Let's go to WD-50. We just had Wiley on, Wiley Dufresne, and I want to ask him the same question. Do you think back about your time? Like, does it just flash through your head sometimes when you wake up in the morning, you're like, man, that was a crazy, that was an amazing time, that WD-50. um i i don't think uh about those things a lot when i do think about them i smile you know um you can't recreate those moments i think nostalgia can be kind of i don't know it's fun for a second but don't dwell on it it really was a special moment in time my memories from wd-50 obviously there's a lot of food memories but i think i remember the collection of people even more.

14:00I mean, what a rare collection of people coming and going. It really was sort of a nexus. When I arrived in the kitchen, just to drop names, like Sam Mason and Christina Tozzi were exiting, you know, and I got to work for three plus years with Rocio Sanchez and Malcolm Livingston, who both one by one went on to become the pastry chef at Noma. So I think that's a personal point of pride for me that that's really cool. Yeah, there were just a lot of really awesome, big personalities in that kitchen, a lot of talent. And that's just pastry. I mean, like, really, like, there's so much talent in that kitchen.

14:41I love that you bring up Malcolm. I've gotten to know Malcolm and Ghetto Gastro when he was part of that collective. What a great, what a talented dude. No, for sure. So, you know, and think about what Wiley built to build a place that those people found him, those people found that restaurant, you know, to build such a special place that it attracted such a creative collection of of people. Yeah, and like when you talk, Wiley and I talked about, you know, the idea of molecular gastronomy and edge cuisine and all the titles and names. But when it came down to it, it was like just the progression of cooking, which was happening in that kitchen, which has since been repeated over and over.

15:22He brought the example of the Starbucks sous vide egg is now common. Sure. And two things there got conflated during that time of cooking. There was a creative thing. And then there was this let's apply science and speak in real terms and learn more. Now, those two things came together a lot at that time. But in my opinion, they are two different things. You know, so to the point of a sous vide egg, well, that's just useful. That's just useful technique. Maybe that useful technique can be applied to create something novel. But the creativity side of it at that time, you know, I use the term modern to kind of compare to the art world where I feel like that modern or modernist, whatever the heck you want to call it, was really about the parlor trick.

16:12It really was about serving someone something and they couldn't figure out how you made it. You know, it was that surprise factor that did get lumped with molecular gastronomy. Yeah, it did. But literally science. Yeah. To me, that's just that that's not creative. That's just about understanding things at a deeper level. Like you can apply molecular gastronomy to searing a steak. That doesn't change the way people look at food. Right. The end user might not actually understand what's happening with the molecular gastronomy side. But certainly with the artistic side, the end user is going to absolutely see that balloon floating above their head that is edible.

16:50I think modern art and modern cooking were very similar in that there was more about the act of doing it and trying to find new avenues to create something. versus starting with an end goal in mind. It was more about creating new pathways, if that makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. The big question here, are we in now a postmodern era? A hundred percent, which is way more complex, way more free. You know what I mean? But if you tried to put forward a lot of the things we did during that modernity period, I don't know. I think a lot of it wouldn't have the same effect. We're beyond it. And we're thinking about different things.

17:30We're concerned and, you know, seeking out different things. Yeah. I mean, look at Malcolm now. He's making, among many things, the most delicious puffed rice or Rice Krispie treat imaginable at Sweetgreen. Right. It's so good. And that's creative, too. Totally. Of course. It's just different. Yeah. Right? The application is different. So at Misha, like transitioning to your new restaurant, which is a huge swing, and I've been and I've really enjoyed my meal there. And I feel like you're taking a swing at maybe a postmodern approach to food because right now you're you're you're I'll let you explain it.

18:04But my interpretation is these are many regional American American classics being interpreted through your culinary skills and lens. Yeah, for sure. And again, to segue from the creativity thing, it seems like my creative path now is can I put new restaurants out there and hide them in plain view, hide them in the mainstream and have them be accepted. But when really you start digging into it, it's not like anything else out there. To break down Misha, I was like, well, I want to create a container, a restaurant where we can cook everything else, meaning not Mexican-inspired cuisine. But you have to whittle it out of time.

18:41What does that really mean to you? What do you want? Like what are the things? And I broke it down into three categories. There's ubiquity. So the marketplace, the idea that like, well, maybe I do want to chef out a grilled cheese sandwich. Maybe I do want to, you know, just really cook meatloaf professionally and see what opinions I have about that. What a challenge just to take that dish. Right. So there's definitely ubiquity. But then there is, you know, you're at service to your heritage. So and those two things together make up most restaurants. We could go to Veselka and get a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and pierogi.

19:20And that's the result of an immigrant at service in two directions. They're at service to ubiquity and they're at service to heritage. And both are extremely important. There's a third part that I think tends to be lacking a little bit, which is the discovery phase. So for some reason, French cooking in particular gets to do all three. So they get to tell you all about their food from Alsace or Lyon and they get to work the marketplace and do the cheeseburger. But then they also get to, you know, swoop over to Japan and Morocco and integrate those flavors. So my stance is that a French chef, you know, delving into Moroccan flavor shouldn't be any different than an Ethiopian chef interested in Burmese flavors.

19:58It should be able to go in all directions. And I think discovery is extremely healthy, and I also think it's a responsibility of chefs to explore other flavors and cultures. How do you then honor the traditions that may be only truly honored from somebody from that region? Well, I think that when you start getting into the appropriation thing, I think there's a fine line there. My rule is that I don't ever make the dish. I won't make someone else's dish. I think that that is their job that is their heritage and it's for them to explain and tell that story so like even with Mpeon I will not make you food from Oaxaca but well I will take things that are profound from Oaxaca like wahe seeds or avocado leaf and I will integrate those into our cuisine because I think they're amazing and I think we should be taking a look at them but I don't for me personally I get uncomfortable as an outsider trying to speak towards something else.

20:57But hey, if I'm looking at Burmese cuisine and I'm like, wow, you know, you know, toasted shallot oil with lime and turmeric is a really profound flavor combination. And people should know about that just as much as they know about soy sauce and wasabi. Then then I think that's that's worthwhile. Yeah, it's purely honoring the cuisine. Well said, Alex. Thanks for clarifying. It really is a fine line. The approach appropriation conversation is tricky. Yeah, I think it's important. Now, let's talk about developing these recipes because you've had some time to really, you're opening a new restaurant, so you have to develop.

21:30I don't think we talked to too many chefs about the way they actually develop the recipes and the dishes. How does that work for you exactly? Yeah, for me, it starts with, I can't think about any individual dish any longer. I have to think about the overall concept first. What is it? What is it trying to do? What does it want to be what will the marketplace want it to be? There has to be that negotiation. And then from there, you kind of work and work and work on the menu as a whole. And then from there, you start to dig into the actual recipes. And the way I develop them is I cook them all myself.

22:02That's my rule. If I can't do it and or if I felt like I'm starting to do something that if I made that someone's job, they wouldn't love that job to do that thing every day. That's a good test. It has to pass through that filter first and then i take that whole thing and me and and at that point it's in a vacuum then you release it me and my my um culinary director duncan i hand it all to him and he'll do it all himself too and he'll add to that for notes you'll have a meeting about it then it'll change again and then then it makes it to the executive chef and it goes through another pass and even then once you do all three of those things it's still not done because now you need to give it to the team.

22:43And that adds a whole nother. And you're like, just execute this dish under fire. Exactly. And then the last part is you have to give it to paying customers. Yeah. And then you'll know. It has to go through all those things. The hope is that you get more and more close to 100 % right on day one. That's my personal goal. Now, like 10 years ago, I'd be like, yeah, we'll figure it out as we go. but I know what the I know the pain and I have the scar tissue of retroactively doing a massive correction on a restaurant and guess what fine you fixed what they didn't like and guess what your old news they don't care anymore they're never coming now it's important openings to restaurants is essential especially in New York with so much competition do you ever feel bummed when a recipe in your goes from your kitchen and you're like man this is great like I just love this and then Duncan doesn't it's like okay it's good and then your third layer like I can't do this.

23:35I think I used to be that way. I get I don't take it personally anymore. Yeah. You know, I think that the chef thing is very egoist. It's very like, well, I mean, I cook what I cook and that's it. I'm I think restaurateur is a much more situational attitude. You know what I mean? So it's like, let's be very intelligent about how we plant this garden and hope that it all grows. But but is all of it all are all of your plants going to bloom flowers and give you fruit? probably not you know what i mean oh yeah you hope you do hope but great metaphor love that um let's talk about the hot dog you're making your i just had to segue to it because you're making your own hot dog you're making your own hot dog bun seems difficult on the surface it is and for some reason i can't help but look i'm a masochist i always have to have one dish on the menu that's just sort of easy bait for, I guess, lower brow people to poke at.

24:31It's delicious, by the way. Thank you. And I just love, I mean, it's so enjoyable. But like, let's take through the actual culinary side of it, because I'd just be curious how you actually think you're in New York City, freaking lots of hot dogs here. Yeah. What's yours? But again, that's a scary thing. I think hot dogs in New York City are sort of going away. Definitely. If an American restaurant needs ground beef and it always sort of manifests in the form of a hamburger, well, let's give that ground beef to a hot dog. So we take brisket and we make our own emulsion forced meat in-house. It goes into a hog middle casing because we like that snap.

25:02Natural casing. Yep, natural casing. But it's girthy. It's thicker than a normal hot dog. And that came from the idea, well, restaurant hamburgers tend to be bigger. So let's invent the restaurant hot dog. The bread is made in-house. It's a potato bun. All the condiments are made in-house. It comes with a sidecar of dry-aged brisket chili. And I know people are like$29 for a hot dog, and my attitude is like, look at the thing. It's worth more. I mean, that chili alone, I was telling you, I just love that chili. Just having a great chili side. When you say you make all the contents, are you making the ketchup, though?

25:34Well, we don't serve ketchup with the dog unless you request it. That's your Chicago side. Yeah. There you go. I don't do ketchup with the dog. If someone wants that, fine. We have ketchup in house. But, yeah, that's a joke. That's the one thing we will not make from scratch, which is ketchup. Yeah. Chef-y ketchup never tastes right to me. I love it. That's a pull quote in some ways because we're working on Story Cafe Airway and we talked about the death of St. Kensingtons because, yeah, no one wants anything but Heinz. Yeah, Heinz isn't something you beat. It's like a mountain you climb. Like you can't circumvent it.

26:08Can you imagine running a business and realizing that you have the highest, deepest moat possible, that literally there's no competition? No, it's amazing. Good for them. I mean, good for them. We're talking about cocktail sauce. We're talking about so many elements that, you know, ketchup. They could, like, triple the price if they wanted. Yeah. They could only make one thing if they wanted. They could just do that. They wouldn't have to do anything else. Jeez. It's remarkable. Anyways, I'll link to that. If that story is, I'll link to it. But more about your culinary side because I think you've got three pastas, at least in the menu, that I saw maybe four.

26:42What are you thinking about with the pastas? Because, I mean, these pastas are – they're inspired by Eastern Europe. Yeah, I like the idea that Italy does not necessarily own pasta. Maybe someone could argue that they are the best pasta cooks, but, you know, it doesn't originate from there. You know, pasta, paste, pate, whatever you want to call it, these are doughs. These are noodles. So I thought it was sort of a subtle statement piece to have a pasta section without Italian food in it to showcase other cultures. What does the diner think about that? because I feel the diner might be confused.

27:18It hasn't, I haven't gotten any flack yet. We've only been open for 10 days. Yeah. And that's what I mean when I said earlier about it all hiding in plain view. That is the hope. I want everyone to love it. I'm not trying to challenge people for the sake of it. You know, there's a rebellion aspect to the restaurants, but there's also a congeniality aspect that's tempered to that. So I do think there are three delicious pasta dishes. I feel like there's enough Italian pasta dishes in New York City that I, at least, I don't need to get into that game. I feel like the hiding in plain view is not new to you.