242: Jenneh Kaikai

0:00This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. Resi is a digital platform that connects restaurants to restaurant lovers by elevating dining experiences, providing original industry content, and helping to fill some of the country's most exciting dining rooms. Because restaurants have always been more than just places to eat. The amazing world of restaurants is just a few taps away in the Resi app and at resi.com.

0:31like on a deeper level the other thing that i've been reconciling is just like kind of the service role as a black woman and the importance of you know charging and putting value on on my work and expecting to be you know compensated fairly

0:52This is Taste. I'm your host, Eliza Barbanel.

0:59Not all cake is created equal, and Janae Kaikai is always raising her game. The baker and owner of Pella Kitchen, a Brooklyn-based micro-bakery offering up cakes crowned with flowers and filled with flavors of the African diaspora, makes some of my favorite sweets in the city. It's a joy to have her on the podcast to talk about evolving her business from a side project to main gig, the booming food scene in Accra, pop-up solidarity, and more.

1:34Jenna, this is Taste. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I'm happy to have you here and talk about cake, which is like my favorite topic to talk about on the podcast. I have not tired of talking about cake yet. So I think we're good. Yeah. What was the last cake that you had? That I made? Or just that you ate? So for the spring, I've been making a lot of lemon butter cake. And so I've been eating a lot of lemon butter cake scraps, which is just like, you know, to level off the cake, you tend to like cut off the top or just the edges.

2:07And so that's what I've been. I've been eating a lot of that, a lot of like lemon butter cake lately. Do you just snack on the scraps straight up or do you do something with them? And it's a whole situation. So I take like a little deli container and I kind of tend to like layer the cake scrap and like a little extra like, you know, remnant of cake frosting and make a little like trifle situation. Like a parfait. Yeah. Yeah. Cake parfait. I love that. I feel like you could add some fruit and then you have that for breakfast. You're ready to go. A cup of cake scraps a day. A cup of cake scraps a day.

2:41I want to start off with hearing a little bit about your travel, because I know that you've been kind of spending your time back and forth between New York City and West Africa lately. Where were you recently and what were you eating? So I spent about six weeks in Ghana and Sierra Leone at the end of the year, leading into the top of this year. But I also just recently went to Ghana and got back like three weeks ago. I went to Accra. Yeah. And I was there for two weeks. And I've heard like the best things about Accra. What's the food scene like there? Accra. Yeah, it's really it's really lovely because I think you have this like you can get really, really, really great just like Ghanaian local food, street food everywhere.

3:23Like one of my favorite meals that I've had and I probably had it like twice the last time. And there's these like Rastafarian guys who make these like Chinese noodles, what they call Chinese noodles, which really is like lo mein. But it's like really spicy and you can get it with like beef or they have like an assortment, which you can get all, you know, chicken and beef and all these things. So I really do like the street food for sure. But then there's also a lot of really, really cool like contemporary, modern, Afro fusion. And those names are kind of corny sometimes, but like it actually is really, really cool because you have folks who are opening these almost like fine dining restaurants with like African, West African concepts that are like, you know, played with, if you will.

4:11So like I went to a restaurant recently that had so so wakashi is a type of cheese that comes from like the north. So kind of like a fresh milk cheese. I think it reminds me almost like if like halloumi had a baby with what's another like fresh milk cheese? Like a feta cheese or is it squeaky? It's not squeaky. It's not squeaky, but it's like it's almost it's a little bit more salt. It's kind of solid. Cool. What would you? Anyway, anyway, it was deep fried and covered in phonio. And phonio is like this West African super grain. People tend to compare it to quinoa a lot. And so it was like the phonio was like the breading.

4:53And so it was this like crispy, melty. Then they had like local honey drizzled on top. It was so good. When you started describing this, I was hoping you were going to say there was honey on top. Oh, oh. And then like and then let's just get into it. Tell me. Local honey. So I and TSA, please don't, you know, find me for this, but I really love bringing like honey and some of those elements back. And so I really, really have been loving using local Ghanaian honey because it's very it's very rich. It's very like dark, almost has like a caramelly note to it. And so, yeah, imagine that drizzled over some hot fried cheese.

5:27Amazing. Yeah. You had me at fried cheese and then the honey on top of it is next level. Yeah. Are you baking with the honey you brought back or you're just saving that for yourself? No, I've been I've been baking with it. I mean, I don't have a ton. If you've seen my Instagram, I've posted it. I bring them back in like these water, like literally water bottles. Totally normal. Not sketchy. Not sketchy at all. So I've been using it in everything from just like drizzling it on my like granola. I make my own granola. So I've been putting it in the granola. I also have so I make sticky buns and the kind of like goo that I that I make has a lot of honey in it.

6:09And so I made them recently with that honey and it was out of this world. So that sounds so good. Yeah. When you're in Accra, are you eating baked goods and dessert at all? I am not. So, I mean, I think that kind of speaks to like why I'm really, really inspired to like do this in terms of bringing some of my baked goods to West Africa. I will say dessert in any African country I've been in has been trash like just very I'm sorry it's just I think what it is I mean and obviously now having baked in um in Ghana especially um there's an issue with just like sourcing ingredients and so I found that a lot of things that I had on like sweets that I had were just like one note just like very sweet or very dry or, you know, because I think that there's a there's a perception that, you know, like I grew up with the perception like Africans don't like sweets.

7:03Right. You know, we don't like sweets. Not too sweet. Not too sweet. Whatever. But then so I think because of that, people tend to like aesthetically like have a really nice looking cake or, you know, an interesting cake. But then it just tends to have like chocolate, vanilla, strawberry and just not be great. So I did get the chance to actually bake there. and I brought a bunch of ingredients, mostly like my spices and things, but I was like, oh, I'll just get butter and oil and things there. And it was so expensive. I was sharing on my Instagram stories that a liter of cream was$17. That's crazy.

7:39Right. And I get it. Like if the folks there aren't, you know, having a bunch of heavy cream, like it's going to be imported. And that's like the big issue there, and I'm sure we'll get into it more, but just around just imports and the reliance on imports and like what that means in terms of what's available. So to answer your question, yes, I did have desserts. Did I enjoy them? Not so much. I actually connected with a food blogger there and we haven't had the chance to meet in real life yet. But one of our things will be kind of doing this like tour of maybe like five places to actually get good dessert.

8:16Because I've had like some of those restaurants that I mentioned, some of them will have like an interesting dessert. But in terms of just like, oh, I really want a cupcake. I really want like, no. So when you're baking, when you were in Accra, what was the occasion and what was the reception like? Yeah. So I was baking for a couple different things. So there was an event that I did with a woman who has a brand that's actually based between here and L.A. called Sip and Slay. And it's specifically around like women's empowerment and entrepreneurship. And so they had a pretty big event last December and I had cakes available there.

8:49And then I also did an event with the Ghana Food Movement, which I've mentioned a ton. They're like a collective of folks who support the food industry, both in terms of supporting the agricultural side and that import export kind of challenge that the country is having, but then also supporting like chefs. And so they had hosted some folks for a lunch and then they invited me to do dessert. So I made a couple of cakes and it was wonderful. But like I will do some baking again next time I go, hopefully. But I will be bringing a lot. I'll be like shipping a lot of things because it was really challenging.

9:28I mean, one of the biggest challenges I had was just even where to bake. You know, I think here I can find a commercial kitchen. I can rent someone's kitchen, like a business, you know, another business owner's kitchen. But there is there like finding a commissary kitchen there is really hard. And then when I would find maybe a restaurant or something that would be willing to let me bake out of their space, it was like an oven from like 1904. Like no temperature, just like two flames, three flames. No temperature, just vibes. Yeah, exactly. So that was tough. stuff but thankfully I did end up meeting a woman who owns her own cocoa company and she had like an up-to-date kitchen so I actually baked everything out of her like in her home.

10:17Wow you were telling me about this cocoa company but I didn't know that you got to bake out of the kitchen now I get even more why you're such a fan. Yeah no for sure I mean I would say one of the biggest gifts and just going you know going back and forth over the last year and a half has just been the relationship that I've made and that I continue to build. And so, yeah, I was baking literally with her children. And this is someone that I met from just like reaching out to on Instagram. So again, like the community is just like everything. The community is everything. And the cocoa also seems like it's special.

10:54What about it from like a flavor perspective or a baking perspective is interesting to you? Well, it's one of like you open you open the bag and you just get the aroma like it's so deeply chocolate. And then, you know, the other thing that I found interesting is that people would also just like mix it into hot water and just like, you know, drink it. And I think without sugar, without sugar, which, you know, typically here we see like drinking chocolate or baking chocolate. And so that kind of speaks to the quality of it that like you can just mix it into some hot water and it's very like rich.

11:27I really loved baking with products that were from across. So like with the chocolate cake that I made for one of the events, I used coconut oil that was like, you know, unrefined coconut oil from the market, similar with just about everything. Because chocolate cake was, I think, probably the most forgiving in terms of not having all of the my normal ingredients versus, you know, I made my cardamom spiced carrot cake, which was like lovely um but it was yeah it was it was tough it was tough finding everything from just like the like the sugar the granulated sugar that it's so it's so coarse yeah um or like brown sugar what I found some brands that I found would be you know the molasses they'd be almost so wet that like the cake would be too dense so it just opened my eyes to the fact that Like every like ingredients aren't necessarily like interchangeable.

12:26Right. And also like elevation, like there's so many factors. I know this only because, you know, I have trouble with consistent baking even when I'm in like my same kitchen with all the same ingredients. But I would imagine that being on the other side of the world with everything being different is just a whole new ballgame. For sure. And then it's like hot. It's so hot. So like, you know, a lot of folks tend to like cook out, have kitchens like cook outside a lot of time. So whether it's cooking outside or just like it just being very, very warm, it was really it was really challenging. But honestly, I think being able to like be proud of what I made, even like despite all the challenges in terms of getting the recipes together, you know, it it felt really good.

13:10Yeah. And also I think this idea of like terroir, I think we say a lot with wine, for example, or coffee, right, that it has that like specific taste of a place. But you working with all these local ingredients, even if the recipe isn't turning out in the exact way, like it's something you could only make there. Absolutely. And I think it's helpful because like, you know, I have shared that I've started using Calabash nutmeg. It's also called African nutmeg. And it was kind of an accident because people there in Akram speaking about tend to use that particular nutmeg for savory dishes like stews and things.

13:46and I used it in my baked goods and it's like it's very strong. But honestly, it has been a game changer. Whenever I have like people who like know food and that sort of thing, when they've had desserts that I've made with that particular nutmeg, they're like, there's something on my tongue, like a bite, you know, food people. It's like this bite on my tongue. And so it's really cool to be able to like, you know, know that I sourced that from a market woman who got it from a farmer. And yeah, now it's like here in Brooklyn with me in my desserts. Like, that's really cool. I love that. And that's something that it would be very difficult for other people to mimic.

14:26It's giving you an edge. It's motivated me to do more exploration. You know, I also brought back a bunch of baobab powder. And the baobab tree is like the tree of life in Africa, if anybody knows about that. And And there's many, many things that are produced from the baobab tree, including baobab powder, which is like really rich in vitamin C, antioxidants. And I've had it for the first time when I was in Senegal. And a drink is made out of it for like upset stomach a lot. So I was having a lot of that, like the baobab smoothies. But then also had it in other items. Like I've had baobab pudding and, you know, all these other like interesting things.

15:08So I brought some back and I've been working on trying to like stabilize whipped cream with baobab powder and to see how I could like add that to a dessert. And yeah, just doing a lot of exploration and like playing. Yeah, I love that. I'm trying to think about if I've ever had baobab before, but I don't. What's the flavor like? It's hard because it doesn't have like the most distinctive taste. But I think it pairs really well with like creamy. So like coconut, banana. Whipped cream. Whipped cream. Right. So, yeah, I went to a pop-up yesterday actually by a Ghanaian American chef and she had a upside down plantain cake.

15:52So imagine like a pineapple upside down cake and then it had like a baobab glaze and it was so good. Wow. And I tasted like some cashew in the glaze, I think. So, yeah, I think like nuttiness goes well with Baobab, I would say. That's so cool. I love the idea of a plantain upside down cake. It was so good. And funny enough, like when I talk a lot about trying to infuse ingredients from the diaspora, people often do like reference plantain. Plantain is very tricky. It's not like a banana, even though people might think it is. I made I had a dessert last year that I I wanted to like brulee plantains.

16:30It was so good in my mind. I was going to be like spiced plantains, brulee, candied with like some ice cream on top, like a little like peanut crumble situation. Yeah, no, did not work out. Wait, what happened? So plantains are tricky because they tend to harden when they sit out. And so it was really tough because it had it just it would be really, really good when it was like fresh out the oven and warm. But then when they would sit, it just kind of became like really starchy and not that good. And so I did everything from like trying to roast them, trying to, yeah, like parble them a little bit and then like brown it in the oven and then brulee.

17:11And so it just, frankly, that was one of, if you came to that pop up, I'm sorry, because I think that was one of the desserts that I'm not the proudest of. But I got good feedback on it, but it just wasn't there. But the point of me bringing this up is that that particular dessert has inspired me to try to play with plantain more. I like that. And I think it's an interesting point that there are some ingredients that when you say that you're doing African diasporic baking, that's the first thing that comes to mind. But in actual practice, it's tricky to use because I think, yeah, I'm not a baker.

17:41I think plantains are like bananas. So it would be simple and easy, but I'm sure it's not. Like in my mind, I was like, oh, maybe I can do like a play on banana pudding. And I'm like, no, you can't eat like a raw plantain. It's not it's very starchy and it's just not good. So, yeah, so more more on the plantain infusions. It's being developed. Exactly. So in addition to like bringing back these ingredients and kind of developing the menu side, obviously, that's like only one part of running your own business. And I know that you have like a business kind of more corporate background. So I'm curious how you approach like the actual structure of running.

18:16Would you call it a micro bakery? like your own bakery as an entrepreneur? Yeah, so I would call it a micro bakery. It's very fun. I keep saying it's very funny when it's not funny. Coping mechanism. Right. A lot of so just for like background, you know, I worked in urban planning and like real estate project management for seven years before I started my business. And so So I do think a lot of the project management tools and just like way of working has been has been helpful. But nothing about this is like traditional and like easy to predict. And so, like, I would say that, like, in terms of maybe making a plan, you know, it's some of those like project management skills and savviness have been helpful.

19:09But so much of this I'm learning as I'm going. And I think I've the tools and skills that I've learned that have helped my business have been things that I've really learned, like as I'm building my business, whether that be from like other entrepreneurs or things that I'm reading or coming across online. But it's it's I can't compare this to anything I've done in like my corporate life. Right. I think a lot of that has to do with the predictability and then also the, yeah, it's working for yourself, but then also adding in the fact that you're producing something that people are going to consume.

19:49It's just different, you know, it's like a different part of my brain's activated doing this. And it's been like three years since you started? It's been three years. Yeah. So I would say the first year. So October 2020 is when I had my first pop up. And there I like popped up at like a neighborhood marketplace in Bed-Stuy. Did not have any intention of like selling cakes. But then from there, people were like writing me on Instagram. Like, oh, how can I get? And I was like, well, email me. Right. And then I was literally charging$50 for a cake because I just had no. So talk about like the lack of business acumen, but also just like it was very much a fun thing that I was doing.

20:29And so I'm not saying that I didn't want to make any money, but like I had a full time job. So it was like the money wasn't the like focus. Right. And now the money is a little bit more important than it was before. Yeah. Something that I've spoken about previously on the show is this kind of like understanding or lack of understanding about how much things should cost. especially I think with baked things like cakes, for example, because there's so much labor and ingredients that goes into them. But then from the consumer side, you don't really think of it in that way. And so spending, I don't know,$250 on a cake seems like a steep price when in reality like that can actually be undercharging for somebody.

21:10So I'm curious, like over time, like how have you thought about value in the business and how you like communicate that to people? Eliza, these are all like the hardest. These are things that I'm like really struggling with in real time. I mean, in general, I have found that confidence around pricing is just something that a lot of people struggle with. You know, I think to your point, this idea, especially now of being like, hey, pay me two hundred and forty dollars for a cake for a cake might seem like crazy to some people. But then I like to share with folks that, you know, what I'm because it is a micro bakery, you know, there aren't like a case, a case full of cakes that you can pick from every day.

21:52I'm making if Eliza, you write me for a cake on Friday. Well, please don't, because that's way too quick of a turnaround. But if you write me for a cake, you know, I'm going out and I'm, you know, purchasing the ingredients that I need to like make that cake for you. And I'm not like pulling some frozen cake layers that have been in the freezer all month. Like everything is fresh. If there's like blueberry lavender jam, your girl's making the blueberry lavender jam. And you're getting the blueberries and the lavender. And I'm getting the blueberries and the lavender. And, you know, I really, really believe in just like quality in terms of just the ingredients and things that you're using.

22:30So like I almost exclusively use diasporico spices. I love them, especially the cardamom. You know, it's not cheap. And so I think I have I've had to reconcile with that a little bit just around like really wanting to have my cakes enjoyed by many people, especially there's there's also another like thing that I struggle with where a lot of my audience is it's pretty split, you know, in terms of just like young other, you know, young folks and, you know, moms. and creatives. And so I like to, I, as much as it's like everyone wants to make a luxury girl now, I still do like the idea of my stuff being kind of accessible.

23:17And so I've been toying with that. So I've been going back and forth about, okay, the cakes are at this price point, but then when I have pop-ups, the case can be at this price point. So that's something. And then like on a deeper level, the other thing that I've been reconciling is just like my role in this, like kind of the service role as a black woman and the importance of, you know, charging and putting value on my work and expecting to be, you know, compensated fairly. Because I do, you know, you see the cake world. Like it runs a gamut in terms of the price points and the types of cake and things.

23:53And so I've had to kind of really be like confident in, you know, the price is the price. Sometimes I do. I'm not going to lie. Like I'll, you know, I'll cut a deal or, you know, if someone has come to me like there's a family I've made their daughter's cake for three years now. And so I'm like, you know, that's so special. It's so special. You know, I'm like, I'm not going to go from like so. So it's complicated. But I think that like in terms of my own worth and valuing as an as an entrepreneur, I've been really, really, really working on trying to just like feel confident in my pricing. I love hearing that from people in general, especially from you.

24:37I'm such a fan of what you do. And I think going off of this idea of how big the cake scene is in New York right now, I think that is true. And there are so many different people that someone can go to if they want to order a cake. So if they want to get one from you, there's reason behind that. And your pricing can reflect that as well. What really also helped me was just being clear on what the cost of making a cake is. And that's something that a lot of folks, I think, stay away from, like just like the cost stuff. And that was me for a very long time. But then when I actually got on paper and I said and I saw that, OK, it takes blah, blah, blah to make this carrot cake and I'm charging$50.

25:13That doesn't make any sense, you know. and also sometimes I'm not gonna lie I do go on some of the like more higher end girlies Instagram or their their websites and I'm like no I can I can I can charge you know I can charge this and so yeah it's really it's it's like it's been helpful to kind of do the comparison and feeling like no I'm in I'm in the right spot yeah exactly I'm curious if you feel like you have camaraderie in the cake community? Is there like solidarity among like other cake bakers? I feel like there's it's interesting because there's such a like a there's so much momentum around it.