243: Courtney Storer

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0:31For so many years when anyone would razz me or say, hey, that's wrong, do it again, I would be so embarrassed that it would hinder my growth. And I really learned to not be embarrassed. I'm trying to give good food to people and I'm in the hospitality industry and I'm not always going to get it right.

0:52this is taste i'm your host matt rodbard

0:59the bear we all love the bear the hit restaurant drama from fx that begins its second season run on june 22nd and we love the bear for good reason the show was the talk of tv last summer and one of the most realistic portrayals of restaurant life on tv courtney store is a los angeles-based chef and the show's culinary producer. That means she's behind the show's hyper-realistic cooking scenes that are now legendary. On the show today, we talk about how Courtney gets the cast ready to cook. We also dive into the important and tricky topic of what makes a great chef. It was so nice seeing Coco again.

1:35I hope you enjoyed this episode.

1:44Courtney Storer. Hello. I'm going to call you Coco. That's me, Coco. Coco Store, welcome to Taste. Great to see you. Great to see you, Matt. I'm so happy to be here. I love seeing your face. We've met before, but we did the podcast remotely. We're real people. We're real people in there. Yes. Okay, so from the jump, this is spoiler free. We're going to go spoiler free here. Don't get me in trouble, Matt. Yeah. It's too much on the line. Too much on the line. We're recording this on June 1st. We will be running it very close to the premiere of The Bear. The show that you are a culinary producer on, you're a creator, your brother is a creator, you work with all the cast.

2:22We've had Ayo on, we're going to have Lionel on soon. Oh my God, what kind of year have you had? Wow, it's been intense, that's for sure. But in such like a great way, like creative intensity is sometimes like you're like, ah, it was like a whirlwind, but it was amazing and also challenging and fun. and I think season two, similar to season one, everyone brought their A-game and came very prepared and want to make the show as good as possible. And so this year has just been very dedicated to doing that. I think it started months before we even began filming with just preparing the actors in a different way, really having some of an idea in the writer's room where they were going to take season two and just making sure that we were setting everyone up for success.

3:15Yeah. I mean, let's just start. It debuts last summer right away. There's a response from both the industry and from critics. But this is funny. I was at the James Beard Awards last year. It was before the first episode aired. Jeremy, the lead actor, plays Carmi, was standing in the green room. Literally zero people talked to him. Zero people who knew who the fuck he was. I know. It's crazy. I know. And I remember him doing it and being like, I felt it was just it was just like I was there. And then like here I was at the James Beard Awards. And I'm like, what am I doing? You know, nobody really knew, you know, about the bear at that time.

3:51No one knew. We just knew it was a name of a show that was based in Chicago. And like, listen, fast forward a few weeks and it's like everyone's catching this season. Episode one, episode two. The response from all communities, from TV critics especially, loving the show. Now, what's that like for you working on the show with your brother? So such a tight knit cast when it just blows up, becomes the biggest show on television. Well, I'm super proud of Chris. And I think that that's been really cool for me. You know, a lot of people, you know, don't know his story, really, and how long he's been trying so hard and came from nothing to do that.

4:29But and, you know, we grew up in a very dysfunctional family and Chris has really climbed up, you know, slowly and surely, like believing in himself. And I'm sure it wasn't easy. I know that it wasn't. And so it's incredible to see him get recognition this way because he deserves it. He definitely has earned it. And I think like for him and I, it's been really amazing to work together. It's been cathartic in a lot of ways to just, you know, work on a project together as siblings and adults after, you know, we went through a lot as kids and like kind of grew up a little bit apart from each other and then reconnected back in Los Angeles.

5:11He was continuing his career in not only television, but movie making and writing and producing. And then I was this young chef living with him. By the way, young. I just added that in, but that's not true. I was not young. And, you know, but but he you know, there was this moment where our lives kind of crossed paths again. And he helped me out. And, you know, I lived with him as I came up in the chef world. As you worked at John and Vinny's and Rose the Rinks yourself. And I met you and know of you as a chef, not as a television producer. Now you're both. You're living with your brother in Los Angeles, working at John and Vinny's.

5:47He's working on the scripts for The Bear. He's outlining it. What's what are those conversations like, those early when he's like, we should write a show about our lives? Because clearly this is autobiographical in some ways. Well, yeah. I mean, actually, so The Bear happened after I lived with Chris. You know, he had written this as more of a movie many years ago. And my input came in, you know, years after I had lived with him. I had moved out on my own and, you know, had continued, like you said, working my way up in the restaurant world. And he kind of said, hey, look, there's some interest.

6:19This was during the pandemic. You know, there's some interest in, you know, I think the show was called Something Else. And he's like, they're interested in making this happen and we're turning it into a pilot. And would you talk to the writers room and can you give them some examples and let them get to know you a little bit? And so that's how it began was, you know, me meeting with the writers and Joanna Callow, who ran the writers room and is also a showrunner and executive producer on the show. And it was just incredible to just sit there and be candid and tell stories and also give insight into all of the logistics behind restaurants and the operating guides I've created over the years and how I structured teams.

7:03Like the stuff you see Carmi sitting in the office with papers around him. And this is like your life. And so there's a real sense of reality there. And I have to ask you, a lot of food fiction on television was pretty bad going into the Bears legacy or the run. And I have to ask you, when you're in the writer's room, are you thinking about some of the potential mistakes that you could be making? I mean, a million percent. And I found if I got those voices too much in my head, then I wasn't speaking from a really honest place. And I think that that happens often with anyone in a creative space.

7:40Sometimes you think of your critic before your fan or someone who might engage in the story or relate to it and be inspired by it. So I started to just really try and think of myself as a young cook and like all the lessons that I had learned, the vulnerabilities that I felt when I was coming up and cooking, you know, how tangible all of it is. You have these highs and lows, but you can't fake it. You know, you really have to be putting in work to get something out of cooking. So I was hoping that in the writer's room that they were feeling that, that like on my worst day, what did that feel like?

8:17Well, they were listening to you. It's obvious. Like, I'm sure like chef consultants have been on shows, many shows, but clearly your brother and Joanna and the writers are listening to you. Yeah. Clearly a special sauce is that. And I mean, the penultimate episode with the, which is the single shot, quote unquote, that has the ticket machine going crazy. Did that ever happen to you? Every day for many, many years. And, you know, when you work in restaurants that have not only dining guests, but to go food, it's a different animal. Literally, it's quite overwhelming if you let it, you're producing a lot of volume.

8:54And, you know, when I was at John and Vinny's, it was like hundreds of covers and then to-go food on top of it that was the same amount of covers, if not more. So if you could imagine at any given day having a ticket rail full, we had three ticket rails full. I had to organize not only the in-house tickets and pace those for the guests that are eating. So what that means is like when you're at a restaurant and you get your salad before your pasta or your, you know, pizza, you have a pace to it. And then you also have to meet deadlines with your to-go food of timing that's set up by like DoorDash or caviar, whatever it was.

9:29And so my brain was just a machine. I would go home and I would not be able to wind down for hours. And then I would sleep and I'd wake up thinking of the ticket machine or I'd hear it over and over and over, you know. Did you eat? Did you have, did you have like a Cokes and donuts late at night? That's what you see with Carmi in season one is the peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I would be around such amazing food all day and all night. You know, I'd have one bite of pasta. I was tasting every single pasta that would go off the line at John and Vinny's and, you know, teaching cooks how to do this, how to season, like around so much savory flavor.

10:06And then I was right in front of the pastry case, grabbing a donut and like shooting back some espresso and then going and just, you know, by the end of the day, I didn't want anything rich. Like flavor wise, I was just like, I want simplicity. And like, that was always something like simplicity and something fast and something that's not going to spoil in my refrigerator. And so you land on peanut butter and jelly. Often. Yeah. Peanut butter and jelly. Maybe I'd make like a toast with like butter and jam and then like coffee. And I just kept it really simple. And my main meals were at the restaurant, which is something a lot of cooks go through.

10:39Like not everyone can even afford to be working in a restaurant, then buying groceries, paying their bills, paying their rent, you know, their car payments, whatever it is. It's like you go home and sometimes you are struggling financially. And so it's a real treat when you go to a restaurant and have family meal or staff meal and it's like delicious. It's actually good. Yeah. I have to ask you, we've talked about your show a lot on our show and we had Stefano Secchi from Risidoro. We had Del Talde in. And both those individuals on the record said, I cannot watch this show. It is too triggering.

11:12And like these aren't really responses with a smile. This is actually responses that they were like dead serious. They could not watch the show. Do you hear this from chefs? All the time. And I get it. And I encourage chefs to follow whatever they're feeling because I totally understand it. I think if you give the bear more time and you stick with it, you see that it's a lot about chess, but it's more about connection between people, forgiveness, you know, the challenges that you face and mental health awareness and taking on a lot of responsibility or putting pressure on yourself and just kind of the levy breaking.

11:53And sometimes people find that to be something they can relate to and it feels good. And then some people are like, that's too much. That's too vulnerable. And I can't go there. And I get it. I mean, it's a real credit to you and the producers and the actors for actually capturing that sentiment that is that triggering. That's like really the art. Art can do a lot of things. And when art creates a visceral emotion that I cannot watch that show, it's like pretty powerful. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, especially with Carmi and a lot of the characters, one thing that I think I didn't express as a chef was that it was hard in a mental way a lot of times.

12:29That I could do the physical work. I could run the expo and keep that restaurant moving. But the toll it was taking on my mental state in conjunction with stuff I hadn't really addressed in my personal life or my upbringing, it all became too much. And when you fill a space and do a job really well and it moves and it kind of feels like it's feeding your adrenaline and your adrenals and everything's going and you're just moving, you kind of stop. And it hits you in different ways when you're not working because your body's kind of like, yo, wake up. We talked about how you got your cast ready for season one.

13:07And there was a bit of boot camp for some of the actors who hadn't really worked in kitchens in the back of the house. How did you prep your staff, your, I call them staff, your cast? I know, I've been doing that too. How do you prep them for season two? And then I want to have some, I watched the trailer, so I have a bunch of questions about that. Yes. You know, I was really impressed with the cast this year, as well as last year, because of the dedication and the interest in getting it right and learning enough about the season that they could prepare in their downtime, because this isn't like a paid situation.

13:41It's like it's in their free time that they train with me or we set them up with somebody else. But I think everyone wants to do well. And I think they've all have expressed to me that they really feel the responsibility to the hospitality community just to do it right and take it seriously. And it's something that they have to be acting. It's like it's you're saying the words, but so much more than that. And you can really see how they move and how they're acting that really like captures the intensity that like cooks show, you know, if you work with other cooks. Yeah. I mean, it's the way they speak.

14:23Like sometimes there's very few lines because it's very much like quick, quick, quick. And then it's like action. It's like movement. Right. Which I think seems like a kitchen reality where words are somewhat shunned in some kitchens. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. And we worked with a lot of different people for season two that we can't talk much about. But I will say that there was so much insight this season. You know, even for me to prepare for season two, I spent a lot of time in different kitchens just to broaden my awareness and my experience. Because I've spent a very long time in restaurants, but there's so many different styles to what chefs like on the line versus what they don't.

15:05People like to be called chefs, so some people don't. You know, what is the hierarchy? Is there one? Is there not? Is there more of a community? Like, there's just so much to constantly be learning that I wanted to make sure I also was doing that work to, like, increase my knowledge. Yeah, like actually evolving. Yeah, and let me ask you about, like, fine dining, because there's a real flashback thread, and I'm sure we'll come to that again in season two. It seems like you as the writers and the cast are making a comment about fine dining, And a lot of chefs I've spoken to about your show, they've said that that was the most triggering part was that, you know, those flashback scenes on the line being yelled at, having like things whispered in ears.

15:46Like I had someone say that that's actually happened to them. How did you research? Yeah, talk about that. Yeah. Well, I think what happens oftentimes is like kitchen cultures, there's a wide spectrum. and it changes based on what, of course, like what style of food, but it really depends on the leadership a lot of times. Like it's not as much about Michelin versus not Michelin. It's just the delivery might look different. You know, if you're in a kitchen where it's really rigid and quiet and no one's talking during the line, it's the reason why a chef is going to go into your ear and whisper.

16:20But sometimes chefs just scream that out and embarrass you in front of other people. Or maybe they're not calling you a name, but they're doing, you know, kind of like a passive aggressive comment about how bad you are as a cook to another cook. Or there's just like little mind games that are played. And, you know, it's like it's not unique to kitchens. A lot of jobs. Like I've heard a lot of people who aren't chefs be like, yeah, I experienced this in this field or this field that are totally relatable, but not, you know, specific to what goes on in restaurants. And not all restaurants are like that.

16:52I mean, it seems like this behavior is bad. But there's also a mentality that this behavior creates great chefs. And I think you're wrestling with this tension in the show. Wow. Well, that's big because a lot of things create great chefs. Like, in my opinion, what got me to be great wasn't always the negative experiences that made me afraid. That made me tense. But I don't know if it made me great. I would say a lot of times greatness comes from believing that you are, number one, very passionate about the industry and willing to put in the work. That, I believe, is where greatness is coming from.

17:29is like, look, if you show up and you continuously give your all and you're in kitchens where there's maybe a menu that's potentially changing or not, or different stations where you can move up little by little to learn the different techniques that you need to, to say work garmage versus a grill station versus a pasta station versus a prep station. You know, I don't know that for me, I would say, the only reason I'm going to get great is if I got yelled at, But I think some people get there that way. It's just each chef's story is very different. I'm so happy that's your response. I'm so happy that our listeners can hear you say that out loud.

18:08Because in the year 2023, I've had chefs say to me on the show, which we've caught and also offline, that pain is required. I've literally like that's a term that someone has said to me in this room that was caught because it's crazy. It's a crazy thing to say out loud that pain is required to do a good job. But still to this day, it's part of the kitchen culture. Sure. And pain is such a tricky thing because it's like it was painful when I made family meal that sucked. I was really hard on myself. And that kind of pain made me research and prepare the next meal better the next day. And sometimes I would say making mistakes, being bad makes you good in kitchens if you're willing to accept that you're not going to be always perfect and always good from the beginning.

18:53And that, you know, a yes chef mentality doesn't mean it's just about hierarchy, but it's just about being able to persevere when you aren't very good. and like persevere when you make something wrong and not let your ego get in the way to admit like, hey, I just like botched that Bronzino. I just really effed it up and I'm embarrassed. And like I just overcooked that steak for the 10th time ever. Like there was something that happened this season and I showed Maddie and I remember him being like, what the fuck did you do to that thing? And my pride, I was embarrassed. And then I was like, you know what?

19:29Yeah, I really messed it up, you know, or something like that. This is like a food styling piece that was supposed to be. Yeah, it was like something silly. It was something totally silly. And it was actually something I was brainstorming in my brain about a menu piece. And I was like, hey, I tried this thing last night. And he's like, well, I like the idea of it. But like, what'd you do to the meat? Yeah, yeah. I was like, well, it's not the meat. It's the idea, you know. But for so many years when anyone would razz me or say, hey, that's wrong. Do it again. I would be so embarrassed that it would hinder my growth.

19:57And I really learned to not be embarrassed. Even if I was, I would be like, look, it's not rocket science and I'm trying to give good food to people and I'm in the hospitality industry and I'm not always going to get it right. That's such an emotionally mature answer. And I just, it shows how some folks just don't have it. I appreciate you being candid. Well, I think, I think, uh, that's just being adaptable too. And being in kitchens where a lot of times I was underestimated and people would see me and see me cook a family meal and instinctually be like, she's not that good. I'm not worried about her.

20:37And I didn't let that bother me, even though it did. And it hurt my feelings. Instead, I would just be like, I've got to do better. I've got to do better. I know I can do better. I can like figure this out. And I really tried to strengthen my inner intuition and listen to it because I think that's the difference. Like sometimes with women in the industry that it can be a little bit different because we don't want to show any vulnerability because any vulnerability scene is weakness or people are calling you emotional and like don't be emotional oh my gosh it's like a crazy instant yeah it's a crazy instant thing that can happen where any sort of disagreement or frustration can be like misconstrued very quickly yeah your stage that you film on famously has working gas it's a real kitchen, which I think in a lot of television productions is not the case.

21:29Is there a version of family meal on set? Is there actually food being consumed that maybe you or other culinary producers are making? Oh, yeah. I can't say what it was, but we try. I mean, often, you know, I can't give things away, but I would say whenever I can, I try to make things for the crew because I love them so much. And we have the most amazing crew and team and just like everyone, if they smell something good, they're like, Coco, what's up? What are you making? Like, what's going on today? Like, why does it smell like garlic? Why does it smell like this? I'm like, geez. That's amazing.

22:01So there's, I mean, I love the fact that the stage has smell of, has a smell of food. It's not CGI. Oh no. I mean, I think it adds so much. Yeah. Um, it adds so much for the actors too, the curiosity for the knowledge of like, what's going into these things that we're doing. You know, they want to know, they want to be in the mix. They want to see and watch. So we're recording this before the first episode airs. So we have an embargoes on what's happening. But I'm going to base some questions on the trailer, which is public. What is a chaos menu? It's so interesting. I've never heard the term.

22:33I love it. This is so funny because me and Maddie always joked about this because we were like, what is a chaos menu? Because listen, everything in the entire show sometimes, even for us, we're like, oh, we don't know what that is. I Googled it as a chaos menu. I did too, and I couldn't find anything. But I guess in the chef world, from what I've learned, is there are people who call a menu that's like not specifically structured. Like, for example, it can mean that the tasting menu takes a route that feels different. Maybe the lettuce is at the end, or like you have a bigger dish at the beginning of the menu, or maybe you switch it this way or switch it that way.

23:11I think it just means non-traditional, a little bit different, no real formality, but a tasting menu of sorts. I see, like Eshtabari famously does the steak at the end. Correct. Just like wacky and free from any specific sort of structure, I think. I was happy to see in the trailer that there was the idea of culinary school is addressed. And clearly it's being debated internally or externally. I'm not sure. I haven't seen the episodes. But did you go to culinary school? I did. I did. Tell me about that and, like, what is your take on the necessity of culinary school? Well, culinary school for me was because, you know, I obviously started in restaurants as a host and then worked my way as, like, a server, bartender, manager, whatever I could do in the front of house.