248: Rachel Karten

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. But I would never want to say that, like, if you are a brand, like, you must be on social media, like, you are losing if you are not on social media. If, like, you are somebody who has a business and you aren't comfortable being on social media, it doesn't make you feel good, it's not fun for you, then, like, you don't need to be on social media to be successful, I would say.

0:53This is Taste. I'm your host, Eliza Barbinell.

0:59for Rachel Carton link in bio isn't just a social media call to action it's a career the former head of social at Bon Appetit and Epicurious is now a social media consultant and the creator of the newsletter link in bio which dispenses insights and interviews on the cutting edge of social in food and far beyond Rachel is my go-to person for demystifying things like TikTok and the Instagram algorithm. Well, as much as anyone can. So I'm thrilled to have her on the show to talk about the current state of brand social, why Instagram matters for restaurants, and much more.

1:39This is Taste. Rachel Carton, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for having me. I just have to start out by telling everybody a really fun fact, which is that But Rachel and I worked together at Bon Appetit, but our moms worked together at the Getty Museum when we were babies. So we're like the second generation of this like co-worker friendship. I love it. It's so strange. It's like two different sides of the country, two different industries. But, you know, the vibes are good. The vibes are good. We found our way to each other. We found our way to each other. and I want to talk a little bit about our time at BA together because it was a time of really high social engagement for the brand which you were running and I'm curious like what are the elements of that social strategy that you thought resonated and do you think they're still relevant in the food media landscape today?

2:28Totally so I feel like what really resonated at BA was really like leading with personality and it didn't feel like a big brand. I feel like a lot of things that people said about our social is that it was very like run and gun, like fun. It didn't feel like you were like following some account with like 4 million followers that was like buttoned up. It was like unvarnished. And some of those like specific qualities, I think it was, you know, giving sort of a BTS look at what it was like to create a magazine, you know, going down to the test kitchen and just like taking our iPhone out and sort of showing what was going on, giving people like a peek behind the curtain.

3:09And then also, you know, when we'd regram staff, we would say who it was and we would, you know, kind of let people know who worked at the company. And I feel like we see that a ton now with brands. You know, if you look at like Omsom, the founders, you see them all over their social. Fly by Jing, like all of these brands that are doing really well on social right now, specifically in like the CPG space, all sort of turn the camera around. They show this sort of unpolished look at what it's like to build a company. And with social managers as well, you're seeing like the social manager participating in trends on TikTok.

3:42You're seeing their face. It's not a secret who's running the accounts. And so I think it's this sort of BTS, like not too polished look. At the time at BA kind of felt different, especially compared to other food media. So I feel like it's still very relevant today. And do you remember like having any conversations about how you wanted the social to feel or was that just kind of a natural thing that came about? I think it was kind of a natural thing that came about. I think that, you know, it felt like what should be happening. If people are going to care about, you know, our opinions, then they should know who we are.

4:22And so I wanted to sort of like lift that curtain. And instead of it being like the brand voice, it should be the voice of the collective people who make up the magazine. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And also there's this interesting dynamic where you can be really like raw and unfiltered about something, but it's also a really glossy job. So even when it is being that kind of relatability, there is also that kind of like aspirational element. I mean, yeah, not most people have like a test kitchen in their office. So I think just even going down there. but you know it wasn't going down there to show the test kitchen and this like really like here's the story of the day it was just like let's see what's going on and like we kind of took people along for the ride with us which I think um yeah there's that element of like that's so cool there's a test kitchen but also they're shooting it on an iPhone and like who knows what's going to show up on the story yeah definitely and a couple of weeks ago what is time maybe last week when there was a lot of smoke in New York I know somebody that was on set for another food brand not to be named and the light was getting all messed up on the shoot and it caused all these problems of like, oh, we might need a pause shooting, whatever.

5:27And I just know that if that had happened when we were at BA, especially in that early like 2017, like the whole video would have been about the fact that there was smoke and that the light was bad. Like that would have become the new focus. Totally. Totally. Yeah. There wasn't a lot of like filtering going on there. Right. Exactly. Maybe, you know, pros and cons. Yes. So coming forward to today, like from your view on the other side of the screen like what's in and out on brand social okay here's what's in i feel like i mean reels i'm sorry but they work i do i do stand behind that um what do you think about sorry yeah go ahead yes the reels that are like actually just slideshows of photos um you know i don't feel like those work quite as well if i'm being honest bummer for me okay do you do that no because i i shoot i just don't post i like take things and i don't post but whatever no it's like a new training that like if i'm eating somewhere i need to take a video whereas like i used to be like i need to take a photo so i think reels work really well i think that you know leading with personality i think this sort of like iphone only like i will post something on a brand account that's like shot on like a nice like glossy camera does not perform as well if i had just done it on an iphone um and why do you think that is because people feel like they're being sold to more.

6:45Yeah, it looks like an ad. And I think even now, if you look at ads, they're just like somebody standing in front of an iPhone being like, you have to try this new burger at blank. Like the ads aren't even glossy anymore. So I would say like that's what's in even like typing in lowercase, you know, like I think like people just don't want it to like look like brands are trying too hard that should feel like you're meeting people on their level. And if like posting a photo dump as a brand is now what you have to do to like connect with people who post photo dumps on their personal accounts. Like we're seeing a lot of that as well.

7:17It's so funny to me also because you have to turn off your settings on your phone if you don't want it to be automatically uppercased. So it's actually like more work to make it lowercase, but it seems chiller. I know. I get it. I do that too. I do it. I'm like, I'll like go back and like turn the like I to be lowercase. It's a lot of work. The uppercase I is doing a lot, you know? I know. um what's out in brand social I would say you know there's like a lot of campaigns that I see go up that are very um maybe sounded good like in a a brainstorm but then in real life don't really like resonate on social as well um I think that you know I'm talking about leading with personality I'm seeing some of the downfall of like the founders as a public figure that I'm like very interested in following where like they've almost you know exposed themselves so much that it's like a personality that, you know, if something goes awry that now they have to answer to it on the brand channel, on their personal channels.

8:14And so I'm curious sort of how that progresses of like founder as personality. What else? I mean, that's a good list. I think like to talk about food stuff specifically, to me, there's kind of like a couple, I was going to say two main types of food accounts, but there's more than that, but definitely restaurants, definitely CPG brands and then individual people that are recipe developers or writers or like maybe running a brand in that kind of way. But if we're talking about like the brand side and not the individual side, what are like the accounts that you're following in the food space that you think are doing a good job?

8:48Yeah. So on the restaurant side, I love Woon. It's a restaurant in LA. They do this, you know, basically a photo dump called iPhone finds. And it's just like fun, takes you behind the scenes of the restaurant. I think Yellow Rose in New York, I love their social. they're posting new recipes and it feels fun and it's like such a good like reminder that I should go there I think Wilder does an amazing job on the CPG side of things brands I've mentioned already like Fly by Jing I think Omsom King Arthur Baking like so much good service on their social and yeah I'd say those are the ones that like kind of stick out to me yeah I think to like jump back to the restaurant side it's interesting you mentioned Woon their restaurant that I follow and I am from LA, but I don't go to LA that often.

9:32So I haven't even eaten there, but I feel like I know that they're a mother-son duo that runs the restaurant, that they do all these events coming out of it. So in the CPG space, I feel like the goal is pretty clear, right? You're trying to drive sales mostly, but on the restaurant side of things, like to me, it's not just about customers. It's also about like having people conceptualize of the restaurant in a certain way. Does that track for you? Yeah, I think that for restaurants, I feel like social is a way to get people intrigued, tell people your story, because once they're in the restaurant, that's a kind of different hospitality experience.

10:06And like, that's where you're really getting to experience it. Whereas a CPG company, maybe you don't have a store, you don't have a like IRL presence. So your social has to be a like bigger community hub, I would say. Whereas I think for a restaurant, like, Like I like when a restaurant just posts like new recipes that are on the menu or like Wild Air uses it for their like donuts with friends. And it's like, oh, I should go try that person's donut. And it's a great place to sort of like get people in the door. And like that's where the real hospitality happens. Like once you're in the door, I feel like.

10:35Right. I think the donuts with friends example at Wild Air is really interesting. If anyone who's listening isn't familiar with this, to my knowledge, and you can jump in, of course, it's like a different collab donut that they do every week with kind of someone that's notable or interesting, mostly in the food space. but not always. And they're kind of teasing this donut on social. And to me, it very much seems like obviously the real thing is the donut, but that like the social drop around it has become a really like well-known part of that. And that's kind of like an interesting strategy to me in terms of how are you bringing new people somewhere?

11:05Exactly. Yeah. I feel like I see that and I'm like, oh, I wish I was in New York for this. Like it gets you sort of like top of mind as a restaurant for a consumer. So obviously you work in social, so you're biased, but how much do you think having a good social presence matters for like restaurants and food brands these days? And is it more important for one and the other? I think, I mean, obviously, yes, I am biased. I think it's important. I think for a restaurant, it's important to get people in the door. If there's a new menu item that people get excited about, I think it's like a great trigger for people like, oh, crap, I want to go like eat there.

11:40And for a CPG company, like I'm saying, like that's your community. That's where like, you know, a lot of like your super fans live. And maybe we'll like get into this a little bit in terms of like my personal social media use. But I would never want to say that like if you are a brand, like you must be on social media, like you are losing if you are not on social media. If like you are somebody who has a business and you aren't comfortable being on social media, it doesn't make you feel good, it's not fun for you, then like you don't need to be on social media to be successful, I would say. Right.

12:10So I do want to talk about your personal use and maybe there's two sides of it in terms of like the way that you're posting and then like the kinds of things that you follow. But like how did you evolve your relationship with social media when you left BIA and being like a full time social manager and went into kind of being freelance and maybe being able to explore that more? Yeah. I mean, I would say I've never had a like completely healthy relationship with social media. I do unfortunately believe like to be good at social media, I need to be on social media. especially like as a consultant now where I work for food brands and then I also work for like a furniture company or whatever it might be and so I need to like be in a lot of worlds on social at once and so I still don't have a great answer for like how to like have a healthy relationship but I think that not being the person needing to post and work on social media has allowed me to like have more fun on social media I'm scrolling more for fun than like being like oh no it's like 8pm and I forgot to post today, like I'm going to be in trouble.

13:12And do you have like burner accounts that you use to follow things for work or is your feed just your feed? My feed is my feed. And what's the breakdown like right now? Of like following people versus brands versus like... Yeah. What are you following? Like what are you getting on your explore feed if it's not too personal? My TikTok, I don't see like any brand posts on my TikTok. I really have to like search and hunt for brands on there. I feel like my TikTok is like whatever sort of like trending at the moment where I'm getting married. So I feel like it's a lot of wedding stuff. They're really bombarding me with that.

13:45But I feel like. Well, how do they know? Well, because I search stuff. But I was going to get into conspiracy theories. But that makes more sense. Oh, no. I've searched stuff. And then it's like you must be interested in the five dresses that I didn't choose for my wedding. But you need to see. No. Yeah. I think that I think that I sort of go down like rabbit holes of brand social and then try and keep my feeds more like friends and like personal. And I think that helps a lot. I don't follow like every cool brand that exists on social media or else it would just be like an issue. Right. And how do you think about what you're posting?

14:24Because you post food content like pretty much exclusively, I would say. On my personal. Yes. Yeah. Like why? Great question. Yeah, I feel like I'm like, it's really, this is like a therapy conversation, honestly, of like, if people say on social media that you need to like niche, like niche yourself, like you need to be known as a food person or a social media consultant. And I like live in this world where I'm like both a social media consultant and like could go full like social media, like infographic mode, or I could like stay in this food world. But like what's more true to like myself, like outside of work now is food.

15:05Um, whereas I think the food used to feel like work when I worked at BA, if that makes sense. So like, yeah, it's like my feed might look the same, but like it feels much better posting food now because that's just like personally what I'm interested in. Yeah, I like to hear that. And I can definitely relate. I think that like when we were both working at BA and all the platforms were growing, it really felt like, well, number one, the BA feed was drawing a lot from staff content. So there was like a need to be posting, but also there was this kind of reward system that when the account posted one of my photos, I would get a ton of followers from that.

15:37And I think that, yeah, natural light really took over my life for a while. And now I like never post because I just don't feel the need. And now it feels scary. Right. Because it's not something I do as often. I know. I know. Yeah. And, you know, the algorithm is a lot more like it's harder than back in like 2017 that like your posts will either now like tank, I find, or just like totally take off. And there's no sort of like, oh, all my friends liked this and this was like nice. It's sort of just like one or the other. Yeah, I definitely see that. But I think to your earlier point about feeling like you need to be in a niche on social, I really like that you're doing this mix of things.

16:17And I think that it speaks to the work you're doing with your newsletter, LinkinBio, which is about people in the social media space. And I think that a lot of what I like about it is that you're having these conversations about having room for like personal life or having room for logging off in this industry that I think doesn't have a lot of conversations around that. So I'm curious, like a little bit about like what inspired you to start LinkinBio in the first place. Yeah, I felt like a lot of the conversations about social media were very cut and dry. you know, five ways to get more reach on social.

16:49And it didn't take into like account the human side of it. So I wanted to write about, you know, why the approval process sucks. Or I wanted to interview the person who runs like the Sandwich Shop in LA, Giada's TikTok account. And I was curious to hear from people and not just have it be like these clickbaity, like, here's how you grow your social. Right. And I think that it's taken off a lot since you first launched. And do you think that draws from the fact that these conversations aren't happening elsewhere and people want to be having them? Yeah, I think that I think that the social manager role is a very like misunderstood role.

17:30And there's obviously like the tropes that, you know, you can play into of like getting called the intern and all of this kind of stuff. And it was nice, I think, for a lot of people who work in social to have a space that felt like an adult conversation about working in social media. We're not interns. We're not like 18 year olds who just got like handed over the password. So I think that it was like a nice sort of community of people who work in social and take it really seriously. Yeah, definitely. And I remember when you were first launching it, we had a conversation about how new of an industry social is.

18:01And that's something that really stuck with me. And I think about a lot, which is that like it isn't the same thing as magazines, for example, where there's all these legacy publications and whether or not it's the right way, a set path of like, this is how you produce a magazine. This is how you do something like that. And now I think we are at the point where social has been around for a while and there are people that can be experts or have like insight and opinions in that kind of way. And I think that makes sense that there's momentum behind that because other people are seeing that as well.

18:31So, yeah, it's now probably like you can have worked in social for like 15 years, which is a kind of long time, like comparatively. So, right. And something that I know is happening in Lincoln Bio is that you have this kind of discord where people are just talking. So I'm curious, like fly on the wall, like what kinds of conversations are people having right now? Yeah. So what is very fun about the discord is that I've organized it by industry. So there's like actually like a Food and Bev channel in there, which I like obviously love going into. And some conversations that are happening, somebody who works at a brand posted a like viral recipe that, you know, somebody had originally come up with, but like tons of people had sort of riffed on and it became its own thing.

19:13And he was wondering how to properly like credit that original person if they're going to post the recipe on the brand account or. What was the what was the resolution on that one? It was that you should, you know, if it's a viral recipe that now is sort of like taken on a life of its own, you can make the recipe as the brand, but credit and tag the person who originally developed it. That was sort of, I think, what the consensus everyone came to. And, you know, there's people posting. I don't know if you've seen like Spirit Alchemist TikTok, like Amazing Bartender. Somebody's posting links from that.

19:49And there was a certain brand campaign that everyone cringed at in the Discord. And there's people from like, like, Crusette in there. There's people from Calafia Almond Milk and Padma Lakshmi's social manager. And there's just like a really fun mix of just like really cool people who work at really cool brands. And like there was no other way for them to all meet and talk before something like this. Yeah. And do you feel like there are similar conversations happening in like the Food and Bev channel versus another channel? No, completely different, which is like what I've always said is that working in social is so industry specific.

20:28And I think I like love working in social specifically because I got to work at Bon Appetit or work in, you know, like at a food company because that's what I'm passionate about. And I don't think I would be half as good as I am at social if I had to work at like a financial company or something that I'm just like not passionate about. Yeah, that makes that makes a lot of sense. What are the other channels that you have? There's there's like some Lost Culturistas fans. We have an I don't think so honey channel where people are posting like bad social things that they saw that week. Oh, my God.

21:02Nightmare to be in that. The CIA Pride post was in there. I actually, okay, obviously that was terrible, but from like a camp perspective, it was kind of genius. I mean, perfect, yeah, yes. And there's other channels for media. There's channels for sports social. Like sports social is like a whole other beast. I was talking to somebody who works at ESPN, and there's like 72 people on their social team or something absolutely bonkers like that. So it's just can be so industry specific, and so it's fun that it's broken out that way. Yeah, I like that. And I think that it makes sense that sports social would be completely different because I don't follow a single sports account.

21:39But I feel like hearing that makes like a whole new layer to it. Yeah. So from this bird's eye view on the industry, I'm curious about what change you would like to see happen in the social space. I mean, I still feel the same as when I started. I think that social managers are the future of marketing. And I think that I would love to see more sort of upward mobility within the social sort of like marketing sphere. I want to see more social managers as like CMOs, as like VPs of marketing. And I think that there's no other like person on your marketing team who understands both the brand and the audience more than a social person.

22:19And there aren't CMOs. I don't even know the right acronym. That have like come from social. Yeah. I think there's like two to three that I can think of. barely. Well, I feel like as the industry continues to evolve, it would hope that that change would happen. But I guess it's too early to see. Time will tell. Okay. So what's the deal with TikTok? Do you think it's as big of a deal as everybody says? I mean, I think that TikTok, the algorithm and the way that the discoverability works on that platform is very unique. You can't have that happen on Instagram. You've seen so many restaurants affected by, you know somebody posting one dish from their restaurant and it causes like mayhem you just didn't see that happening in the Instagram days I feel like yeah it's interesting from a restaurant perspective I think that you know I don't own a restaurant so I can't speak to that fully but I definitely have like had this effect where I know a restaurant blows up here in New York and then I don't go to it because I know it's going to be slammed and then a month later it's actually completely fine but the whole like larger community of people that go out to eat know that it blew up on TikTok and they just don't want to go in the first place.

23:28And it makes me wonder if like you even want that kind of growth. Yeah, it seems like potentially more like blip growth than like steady, like kind of like good growth. And are people then just going to go once so that they can get likes on their TikTok that they make about your viral pastry or whatever it is? And it's like, is that a quality customer? Is that just somebody who's like looking to, you know, grow their following through your pastry. Right. And at the same time, it's hard because even if you're not inviting in influencers, like especially in cities like New York and L.A., like somebody can just come and then you don't even have control over how people are finding out about your business, which obviously having customers is good.

24:11But like Folterolle, for example, which is a natural wine bar in Paris that serves ice cream. I'm going to Paris soon. I've been wanting to go there. And then I saw on Instagram that they have signs up now that say like no TikTok because a TikTok blew up so much that the lines are just all the way down the block. Wow. Wow. Which like, I guess you could kick someone out for TikToking, but that seems a little extreme. And like, how do you really know if they are, if they're just taking a video to, you know, send their mom or something? Yeah. I guess if you bring your own ring light, then it's probably a giveaway.

24:41That feels bad. I heard about that happening at, um, at Claude, I believe, which went viral on TikTok. Wow. I know. But what can you do about it? You I'm not sure what you can do about that. That's why I'm pretty I don't know. I feel like bringing a ring light into a restaurant is like next level. Yeah. Do you feel like you have a good instinct for when something is going to blow up on social? I think I have an idea of like what kind of dish it would take or what kind of like product it would take. But I've been surprised many times. Right. Since going freelance and doing consulting, like are there any projects that you've done that were like especially fun?

25:22or exciting to you? I've worked with Kava for a while now and I got to work with Emma Chamberlain who happens to love Claire Saffitz and so I was able to bring the two of them together which was sort of this like Marvel-like moment of like worlds colliding on YouTube and that was very fun to work on. I love that and also like obviously we worked at BA with Claire so you specifically were able to make that happen in a way that maybe other people would not yes did it perform as well as you thought it would it was a like sponsored post on claire's channel and it has over a million views wow which for like a sponsored post is pretty good yeah i mean ember chamberlain has that crazy halo effect around her for sure why do you think that is i think that she kind of like what we were talking about she is the like personified bts iphone only like she is just like a unvarnished like she is herself and like fully herself on on the internet and i think that it's really refreshing for people um and yeah she's a sweetie yeah and she stayed that way even as she's blown up which i think is really one of the biggest tensions that i notice as a consumer on social is that people don't want to be relatable when they get famous and you're like taking a private jet like that's not relatable but you're trying to be deprecating about it and i was watching her be a red carpet correspondent on the met gala red carpet this year and i was like oh i get it like she's talking to all these celebrities and she's not being weird about it but like i feel like she's on my side still yes exactly that's so cool yeah okay so to close the interview i want to do like a rapid fire fast and furious taste check for you because this is taste and we ask guests about their discerning taste.

27:05So just no thoughts. I'm just going to run through that. Okay. Favorite cookbook. My favorite cookbook is a nostalgic one for me. It's called Cucina Fresca. It's my mom had it growing up. She makes this amazing like cold balsamic chicken from it. So when I'm not cooking from like all the XBA employees cookbooks, I'm cooking from that. Go true road trip stack. Okay. I don't know if you know this about me, but I used to actually go on a website. I think it's called like bestbeefjerky.org. And I would order in college like tons of beef jerky to my dorm. So I am a beef jerky girl through and through.